Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Iron Cobra 07-02-05, 01:48 PM	The flintlock pistol, the musket, the smoke and fire bomb. Hell, i think they'd fit right in. My friend has a Dread Pirate that speaks in a cockney accent with a pistol he carries around in secondary use to his rapier. :cool: Any thoughts on the matter?
Edymnion 07-02-05, 01:56 PM	Nope, but then again, I personally despise the idea of guns in D&D in any form. I play this game to get AWAY from thugs with guns, after all. If I wanted to see a bunch of guys with guns pointed at me, I'd go downtown and yell "Thumpers* are retarded!" ;) *Thumpers: The people that turn their car stereos up so loud you can hear them from several blocks away.
Iron Cobra 07-02-05, 02:11 PM	Yeaaaaaaaah...oooooooook... :rolleyes: .anyhow, i'm sure some people won't find this stretch too hard, considering rapid fire crossbows, ballistas and gun/smokepowder are beginning to emerge or exist already.
greatfrito 07-02-05, 02:18 PM	I think part of the thing that a lot of people cite when discussiong Eberron and firearms is that they take away some of the "magic -REPLACES- technology" feel of Eberron. I don't really have an issue with using them, but our group doesn't, simply because a wand of Magic Missile can usually fill the same role. Plus, thugs in Eberron don't need firearms - they've either got the magic for it, or the brute strength.
Iron Cobra 07-02-05, 02:22 PM	THey can exist equally alongside it, the world of Eberron is no small place and i'm sure even isolated such technologies are emerging :)
Edymnion 07-02-05, 03:43 PM	I also look at it from the "magic replaces technology" standpoint. Gunpowder (which does not exist in Eberron unless you specifically houserule it in) is a complex substance, that is VERY dangerous to make, difficult to store, dangerous to use, and unreliable when exposed to the elements. Gunpowder would most definately be an alchemical substance in D&D. In 3.5, only those with spellcasting powers can make alchemical substances. Hence, anyone capable of making gunpowder would also likely be able to make a wand or a scroll. Why would a caster go to the lengths to make a highly dangerous substance (that is more likely to blow him up than the badguy) that is useless if it gets wet (or even if it is stored anywhere with humidity) when he can, for less time, trouble, and money, make a wand of Magic Missle or Searing Ray that does the same job?
Eth_Bourne 07-02-05, 06:14 PM	Well I think firearms are not a bad idea in the Eberron campaign. However, I do agree that realistically game wise there wouldn't be many wizards and or sorcerer's who would make gunpowder. I would personally make firearms if inroduced are rare and difficult to make but, a good pay off to whoever takes the time to use it. I would use the rules for guns but maybe make them more magically empowered than through science. I personally wouldn't make firearms readily available becuase they can replace a big aspect of D&D and besides if anything just play D20 Modern.
Mula 07-02-05, 06:19 PM	I agree with Edymnion. The idea behind much of Khorvaire’s level of civilization is magic, and how the people of the continent have made use of magical (mainly arcane) advances to facilitate everyday life (and to better kill other people). Look at Sharn. Basically everything that we achieve via technology is duplicated in the City of Towers with magic. Science in Eberron is arcane magic.
Iron Cobra 07-02-05, 06:33 PM	Well, i prefer to play Eberron with firearms. Regardless of the "magic is science" aspect, there are still parts wholly science and this could become an implemented part of it.
Mula 07-02-05, 06:48 PM	Well, yes, you can play Eberron with firearms and it’s completely fine. Think of all the dragonshard-embedded guns… :)
N-|) 07-02-05, 08:56 PM	I was thinking about this awhile ago... With binding elementals and all the flying stuff in sharn couldn't the magic users create some kind of devices that would magically propell a stone/ball of metal/whatever at high velocities?
Edymnion 07-02-05, 09:28 PM	I was thinking about this awhile ago... With binding elementals and all the flying stuff in sharn couldn't the magic users create some kind of devices that would magically propell a stone/ball of metal/whatever at high velocities?Like a magic crossbow, sling, bow, trebuchet, or ballista? ;)
Raziel_Brokodar 07-02-05, 09:36 PM	Well, here's my look on it. They don't have a place, but I'm always tempted to add them to in for pirates/Lhazzar Principalities, etc... Anyway, so far I've decided to not allow them. But when looking at the other technologies/magic/scientific inventions in Eberron (airships, lightning rail) I kind of want to at least allow them for pirates. I mean, a pirate with a wand just isn't the same. (Jack Sparrow with a wand of magic missile?) Allowing firearms is one of the toughest questions for Eberron DM's, I say go with what you think is acceptable, (whatever you do don't have firearms mainstream so that EVERYBODY has them, and remember to keep them as exotic weapons) Somebody already touched on this, why would gunpowder be made? Yeah, that's very true why would alchemists make it when magic is present... I don't know if that helped anybody.... :bored:
Edymnion 07-03-05, 12:28 AM	Well, here's my look on it. They don't have a place, but I'm always tempted to add them to in for pirates/Lhazzar Principalities, etc... Anyway, so far I've decided to not allow them. But when looking at the other technologies/magic/scientific inventions in Eberron (airships, lightning rail) I kind of want to at least allow them for pirates. I mean, a pirate with a wand just isn't the same. (Jack Sparrow with a wand of magic missile?)Well, I would say it would be a safe bet that any pirate with actual PC levels is going to be a lvl 1 Rogue. Rogues get Hand Crossbow as a free proficiency. And just as a bit of real historical perspective, while real pirates DID have flintlock pistols, they never fired them from a distance. The things were so horribly innacurate, the optimal range to use them at was after you had shoved the muzzle into the other guy's ribs. Real world pirate pistols were, effectively, melee weapons. But yeah, it does feel kinda weird to have pirates without cannons and the like, isn't it? But thats okay, its much cooler to have those pirate corsairs equipped with magical ballistas :D
Beleriphon 07-03-05, 01:06 AM	And just as a bit of real historical perspective, while real pirates DID have flintlock pistols, they never fired them from a distance. The things were so horribly innacurate, the optimal range to use them at was after you had shoved the muzzle into the other guy's ribs. Real world pirate pistols were, effectively, melee weapons. Well they were more like 10 feet away weapons of surprise, easily concealed, and it could save your life if you were faced with more than one attacker. As is crossbows in Eberron have the same role a firearms, are safer, simpler, and when dealing repeating crossbows faster to reload and fire.
Hair Wax 07-03-05, 09:02 AM	A wand of magic missile can be used just as effectively for pirates as can a firearm, the wand doesn't -have- to be a stick of wood or metal, just make a wand or eternal wand in the shape of a pistol, I'm sure I've seen this suggested on here before. What'd look cooler cocking back the hammer on a gun and firing a ball of lead or cocking back a hammer with a drgaonshard on it that connects with another dragonshard when fired to release a lightning bolt or magic missile or scorching ray?
N-|) 07-03-05, 09:13 AM	A wand of magic missile can be used just as effectively for pirates as can a firearm, the wand doesn't -have- to be a stick of wood or metal, just make a wand or eternal wand in the shape of a pistol, I'm sure I've seen this suggested on here before. What'd look cooler cocking back the hammer on a gun and firing a ball of lead or cocking back a hammer with a drgaonshard on it that connects with another dragonshard when fired to release a lightning bolt or magic missile or scorching ray? That is one great idea!
greatfrito 07-03-05, 05:08 PM	I have no problems with pirates with wands or staves. Better yet, a pirate artificer with an [enemy]-bane crossbow. Part of the -usefulness- of firearms in the real world is that they make things die with little training. It's not that hard to aim a gun at someone, pull the trigger, and kill them, without getting stabbed, but it is a little harder to sword fight someone with no training, stab them, kill them, and not get wounded yourself. For this reason, in any fantasy game with firearms, our gaming group has decreed them to be simple weapons. In Eberron, if they're complicated things that only a few people can use... why bother? The renaisance firearms from the DMG are fairly weak - if I remember correctly, a heavy-crossbow outdoes the longarm firearm in damage, and a character with even moderate strength would be better off with a composite longbow. I just don't think firearms are necessitated in the game, and I think it's part of the flavor of Eberron that pirates do wield wands instead of guns, or more specifically, magic instead of guns (surely a Sorcerer level is just as good as having a wand lying around).
Silver Cobra 07-03-05, 05:17 PM	Nah, while that Dragonshard gun sounds cool, i am putting them in with pirates connected to well known human tinkerers...which makes them rare, even if the PCs pick it up, they wouldn't be entirely sure how to wield them.
Raziel_Brokodar 07-03-05, 05:50 PM	Well, I would say it would be a safe bet that any pirate with actual PC levels is going to be a lvl 1 Rogue. Rogues get Hand Crossbow as a free proficiency. And just as a bit of real historical perspective, while real pirates DID have flintlock pistols, they never fired them from a distance. The things were so horribly innacurate, the optimal range to use them at was after you had shoved the muzzle into the other guy's ribs. Real world pirate pistols were, effectively, melee weapons. But yeah, it does feel kinda weird to have pirates without cannons and the like, isn't it? But thats okay, its much cooler to have those pirate corsairs equipped with magical ballistas :D Yeah, all I'm saying is it is VERY tempting to add them in, I'm against it because I feel people are just trying to make up excuses to fit them... but anyway... :rolleyes: Also I don't think Eberron needs to go that far, you know... Eberron isn't ready for guns, maybe that's why they weren't originally developed in the concept. What I mean by Eberron not being ready/needing to go that far was touched on... I have no problems with pirates with wands or staves. Better yet, a pirate artificer with an [enemy]-bane crossbow. Part of the -usefulness- of firearms in the real world is that they make things die with little training. It's not that hard to aim a gun at someone, pull the trigger, and kill them, without getting stabbed, but it is a little harder to sword fight someone with no training, stab them, kill them, and not get wounded yourself. For this reason, in any fantasy game with firearms, our gaming group has decreed them to be simple weapons. In Eberron, if they're complicated things that only a few people can use... why bother? The renaisance firearms from the DMG are fairly weak - if I remember correctly, a heavy-crossbow outdoes the longarm firearm in damage, and a character with even moderate strength would be better off with a composite longbow. I just don't think firearms are necessitated in the game, and I think it's part of the flavor of Eberron that pirates do wield wands instead of guns, or more specifically, magic instead of guns (surely a Sorcerer level is just as good as having a wand lying around). ALSO Edymnion gave me a good idea, having pirates with Hand Crossbows... hahaha... thanks... :tongue:
Silver Cobra 07-03-05, 05:59 PM	Yeah, all I'm saying is it is VERY tempting to add them in, I'm against it because I feel people are just trying to make up excuses to fit them... but anyway... :rolleyes: Also I don't think Eberron needs to go that far, you know... Eberron isn't ready for guns, maybe that's why they weren't originally developed in the concept. What I mean by Eberron not being ready/needing to go that far is was touched on... ALSO Edymnion gave me a good idea, having pirates with Hand Crossbows... hahaha... thanks... :tongue: The world is as you make it, things come presented to us a certain way, sure. But just because of what the author envisioned seems alluring doesn't preclude one's ability to integrate an idea if they know it would help either A)add a small touch the players can further relate to the world B)facilitate the idea of emerging technology C)you think it's cool and just want to have it :cool:
Raziel_Brokodar 07-03-05, 06:16 PM	Obviously you can do what you want with it, though you'd have to keep firearms as exotic weapons, and obviously not make everybody have them. That would ruin the world, because then it's becoming d20 Modern, or at least d20 Renaisance haha... :)
Silver Cobra 07-03-05, 06:24 PM	is d20 Renaisance even a publish setting? :uh-huh:
Gishsarath 07-03-05, 06:26 PM	Silver Cobra, perhaps Eberron isn't the campaign setting for you. Magic replacing technology is one of the main themes of the setting, and if you do away with that ... you upset the power structure of the world. I suggest checking out the game "Iron Kingdoms" by Privateer Press. It has gun mages, steam-powered golem construct soldiers, and "mechanika" wizards. Its really cool stuff, and it definately is more up your alley. If you prefer to stay with Eberron, perhaps you can come up with a comprimise. It isn't too outlandish to design a special "wand-caster" like wondrous item that allows a non-spellcaster to use a wand. You can "reload" it by puttin' in a new, fully charged wand of scorching ray or something. It'll be dope.
Silver Cobra 07-03-05, 06:34 PM	I played Eberron for a while and am going to start DMing after my birthday...I like the world and it's nuances, but having this as an emerging technology, that in no way "rules over magic" at this stage in it's devlopment is one idea i've penned in the past and was hoping to receive tips on implementing it. Rather than not implementing it.
Raziel_Brokodar 07-03-05, 07:01 PM	is d20 Renaisance even a publish setting? :uh-huh: I was sarcastic... :rolleye2:
Silver Cobra 07-03-05, 07:03 PM	No need to roll eyes, I was sarcastic as well.
Raziel_Brokodar 07-03-05, 07:05 PM	I hope... haha
ChronosCrow 07-03-05, 07:05 PM	By Keith's standards gunpowder does not exist in Eberron. Your the DM and you seem to really like the idea so do what you want. But, I just wanted to let you know what the cannon thought was.
Raziel_Brokodar 07-03-05, 07:07 PM	By Keith's standards gunpowder does not exist in Eberron. Your the DM and you seem to really like the idea so do what you want. But, I just wanted to let you know what the cannon thought was. There you go, a to the point answer! :D J/k, do what you want, just don't add spaceships! :P :rofl:
Hola 07-03-05, 07:33 PM	Well really I can see something like guns apearing in Reidra (I hope I spelled it right I can't find my book), seeing as the inspired killed off all magic in sarlona (exception the keepers of the word in Adar) they would have developed something, psionics is an inspired only thing so I would assume somewere on the continent the people would be experimenting with stuff to better there lives (even if they only use it for fireworks) so I could see gunpowder on Sarlona. I think seeing as how the Lhaazar and Reidra are chums they could trade weapons. If only so we could give the pirates guns, I just see these cool flintlocks with a small sibyrius(again spelling someone correct me) dragon shards that you pull back on with your thum instead of the....regular....thingys
vivid_disorder 07-03-05, 08:46 PM	I've said before (at some length :embarrass: ) how I belive that it's not jst a question of magic replaces science as a practical concept, but as a basic paradigm of the world, and in this regard, the question of gunpowder doesn't arise. the people of Eberron would no more think of inventing gunpowder to blast quarries or kill men than we would think to employ a witch to do such things. On earth, when our drains are backed up, we don't call a voodoo sorceror to deal with it, we phone the plumber. In Eberron, they get a magewright in, if they can afford it. It's not just a question of Eberron being "nearly" as advanced as Earth, just waiting for the conceptual shift, or technological development which will allow the production of gunpowder, these developments have already occurred. This isn't the traditional D&D pseudo-historical backwater: Sharn has been a city for tens of thousands of years, without anyone ever thinking to need boomsticks, although any alchemist of any of a dozen empires from draconic to Galifar had the potential to do so. You want fireworks? Dancing Lights. You want a quarry blasting? I'll lend you my wand of Shatter. You want someone dead? Oh boy, are you in for a tough choice. IMO, any human attempting to pursue such technology in Riedra would quickly find himself on the wrong (i.e. painful) end of an Inspired investigation. That's if he hadn't already blown himself to kingdom come. Flintlock/Matchlocks were really unreliable, and terribly inaccurate: if you read contemporary accounts of 18th/19th century duels, most duellists missed one another entirely at a distance of twenty paces. And this is experienced pistoliers, armies of men armed with muskets couldn't hit a barn door. Plenty of people missed wildly with their pistol shot, only to be blinded by the smoke the shot produced, then gutted by the man they thought they'd shot. As an aside to Raziel Brokodar, bring on the spaceships, I've always wondered what lives on Syberis, and I don't see them as such a conceptual leap: even as we speak, some wide eyed dreamer is looking at the night sky over Zilargo and wondering how to modify an airship, an elemental and some Dimension Doors. Look, he's closing his eyes and practising saying "engage."
Silver Cobra 07-03-05, 08:53 PM	I've said before (at some length :embarrass: ) how I belive that it's not jst a question of magic replaces science as a practical concept, but as a basic paradigm of the world, and in this regard, the question of gunpowder doesn't arise. the people of Eberron would no more think of inventing gunpowder to blast quarries or kill men than we would think to employ a witch to do such things. On earth, when our drains are backed up, we don't call a voodoo sorceror to deal with it, we phone the plumber. In Eberron, they get a magewright in, if they can afford it. It's not just a question of Eberron being "nearly" as advanced as Earth, just waiting for the conceptual shift, or technological development which will allow the production of gunpowder, these developments have already occurred. This isn't the traditional D&D pseudo-historical backwater: Sharn has been a city for tens of thousands of years, without anyone ever thinking to need boomsticks, although any alchemist of any of a dozen empires from draconic to Galifar had the potential to do so. You want fireworks? Dancing Lights. You want a quarry blasting? I'll lend you my wand of Shatter. You want someone dead? Oh boy, are you in for a tough choice. IMO, any human attempting to pursue such technology in Riedra would quickly find himself on the wrong (i.e. painful) end of an Inspired investigation. That's if he hadn't already blown himself to kingdom come. Flintlock/Matchlocks were really unreliable, and terribly inaccurate: if you read contemporary accounts of 18th/19th century duels, most duellists missed one another entirely at a distance of twenty paces. And this is experienced pistoliers, armies of men armed with muskets couldn't hit a barn door. Plenty of people missed wildly with their pistol shot, only to be blinded by the smoke the shot produced, then gutted by the man they thought they'd shot. As an aside to Raziel Brokodar, bring on the spaceships, I've always wondered what lives on Syberis, and I don't see them as such a conceptual leap: even as we speak, some wide eyed dreamer is looking at the night sky over Zilargo and wondering how to modify an airship, an elemental and some Dimension Doors. Look, he's closing his eyes and practising saying "engage." Based off Earth history, correct? :)
vivid_disorder 07-03-05, 08:56 PM	As a PS, my personal feeling, beyond concepts of "realism" or nitpicking is that anything that you can do with gunpowder/steampunk technology, you can make it much cooler with magic. As an example, my current Eberron character is a changeling gambler from Terminus, and I wanted something a bit like the concealed spring-loaded derringers that riverboat gamblers used to have in the American West. While the idea of introducing gunpowder weapons appealed, I eventually decided that twin Gloves of Storing with loaded, poisoned hand crossbows was just much, much groovier than a couple of hackneyed pistols as a surprise weapon. At a higher level, I want wands and then any man who calls me "cheat" is going to be sorry (and extra crispy). :evillaugh
Kinger 07-03-05, 09:18 PM	While the idea of introducing gunpowder weapons appealed, I eventually decided that twin Gloves of Storing with loaded, poisoned hand crossbows was just much, much groovier than a couple of hackneyed pistols as a surprise weapon. At a higher level, I want wands and then any man who calls me "cheat" is going to be sorry (and extra crispy). :evillaugh Initially you can save yourself some cash and purchase a pair of Spring Loaded Gauntlets from Sword & Fist. Essentially hand-crossbows mounted beneath one's wrist. I'm sure a DM would be kind enough to let you have them less as gauntlets and more as bracers. Although, I have to admit snapping your fingers and producing a loaded crossbow dripping with poison is a cool image. :)
ryanroyce 07-03-05, 11:05 PM	While I don't particularly care for pistols or muskets, cinematic ship-to-ship combat requires cannons, IMO. Ballistae just don't cut it. Simply substituting fireball wands sounds like a nice (and effortless) idea at first, but not if you expect the PCs to board said ship and take everything as loot. The last thing I want is to get into an arms race with myself by giving the PCs a half-dozen fireball wands every time they fight a Lhazzar pirate (or engage in piracy themselves, as the case may be)! Thus, I am in the process of developing cannons for Eberron. Basically, my idea is that you take an Eberron dragonshard, enchant it with explosive eldritch energy and build that 'shard into the base of the cannon. Then you load the cannonball, aim as best you can, and whack the base of the cannon with a hammer. The 'shard releases the pent up explosive energy, propelling the cannonball towards the target at high velocity. Rinse, wash, repeat! I haven't settled on any specific mechanics yet (damage, range, attack roll, etc.), but that's the concept I'm working with at any rate. Ryan
Kinger 07-04-05, 11:52 AM	Personally I'd steer away from the "propulsion-through-explosion" principle. Ballista can serve their purpose, IF the heads are loaded with Alchemist's Fire. Remember, there were pirates LONG before there were cannons. Hell, ship-to-ship combat has existed for as long as there have been ships, I think. And in a world where alchemy makes such lovely substances like Alchemists Fire and Acidic Fire, it gets all the better. :) I'd expect ships to utilize miniature trebuchet or catapults for launching flasks of alchemical substances. Heck, if you want everyone alive you can fill their deck with tanglefoot bags. Tack on a few low-level sorcs or wizards with Shatter and you're set.
Lord Zeb 07-04-05, 12:31 PM	It's not just a question of Eberron being "nearly" as advanced as Earth, just waiting for the conceptual shift, or technological development which will allow the production of gunpowder, these developments have already occurred. This isn't the traditional D&D pseudo-historical backwater: Sharn has been a city for tens of thousands of years, without anyone ever thinking to need boomsticks, although any alchemist of any of a dozen empires from draconic to Galifar had the potential to do so. You want fireworks? Dancing Lights. You want a quarry blasting? I'll lend you my wand of Shatter. You want someone dead? Oh boy, are you in for a tough choice. Great idea! Since Eberronian civilization has been around for so long, the should be waaay past the Renaissance era firearms, and on to the Old West type guns. ;) Hmmm, Peacekeepers or Colt Lightnings for your PC? Sweeeet. :P
greatfrito 07-04-05, 12:53 PM	While I don't particularly care for pistols or muskets, cinematic ship-to-ship combat requires cannons, IMO. Ballistae just don't cut it. Simply substituting fireball wands sounds like a nice (and effortless) idea at first, but not if you expect the PCs to board said ship and take everything as loot. The last thing I want is to get into an arms race with myself by giving the PCs a half-dozen fireball wands every time they fight a Lhazzar pirate (or engage in piracy themselves, as the case may be)! Ryan Well, if you want to sink a ship, fireball (or a psion with Sonic balls or whatever) is the way to go. If you want to loot/raid the ship? Well, there's two choices: Either make them clash and fight it out on the top-deck (I think that would be more cinematic, and a better encounter for the party, what with the constant chances of being thrown overboard), or just pick up the loot once the ship sinks. I don't think too many of the ships around Khorvaire will be too far out into the oceans, and a Water Breathing spell isn't too hard to manage.
Raziel_Brokodar 07-04-05, 01:15 PM	...there's no sense arguing with Silver Cobra, after all he can do as he likes... no problem from me man. ;) (you're the guy who contacted me over MSN?, I see)
talion09 07-04-05, 01:48 PM	Well, I don't so much have a conceptual problem with an alchemist stumbling upon the formula for gunpowder, I do question how useful it would be. As others have said, a flintlock or musket really pales for destructive potential beside a wand of Magic Missile... although I do have to agree that the pirate with pistol is a cool archetype. But unless you were going to houserule that gunpowder/guns were invented a long time ago and were an accepted part of society/warfare, then you should consider the ramifications of firearms to khorvaire's society. I can see numerous factions, namely the Trust, "erasing" any alchemist who sought to upset the balance of power by introducing a new type of weapon. I can also see House Cannith leaning on any alchemist who does so without the blessing of the House. And I really can't see House Cannith promoting a product that would be competing with their other weapons, unless it had a much higher profit margin. I can see a case in history during the Last War when someone DID field a company using these new experimental firearms. And when they got massacred by the warforged they were fighting (or it rained, etc), then the powers that be shrugged and went back to the old standby's of warforged, Karnathi undead, monsterous mercenaries and magic weapons. Because they were tried and true "technologies". I don't see the impetus to mass produce firearms when there were already equal or better alternatives. And without mass production and lots of field tests to refine the firearm designs and powder composition, as well as develop tactics, then I don't see firearms being more than an occassional oddity, considered to be a magic item by most who use them. Which is fine if you want the occasional pirate to board a ship with a cutlass and flintlock in both hands :-) As for cannons for naval combat? Heroes of Battle has a selection of magic siege weaponry, including magic ballista bolts, some of which explode with elemental effect damage. IMHO, you can buy them as magic ammo just like arrows for 1/50 the cost, so I can see Lhazar Pirates having some "special" ammo for difficult targets. And a ballisa bolt that explodes in a 20' radius fireball is pretty good naval weapon, especially if you broadside the target with multiple ballistas firing such ammo :D
Edymnion 07-04-05, 02:56 PM	Part of the -usefulness- of firearms in the real world is that they make things die with little training. It's not that hard to aim a gun at someone, pull the trigger, and kill them, without getting stabbed, but it is a little harder to sword fight someone with no training, stab them, kill them, and not get wounded yourself. For this reason, in any fantasy game with firearms, our gaming group has decreed them to be simple weapons.Weapons aren't simple/martial/exotic for how easy they are to use. They're what they are because of how much access the normal person would have to them. Many monk weapons are considered exotic, but they're exceedingly simple to use (several of which are nothing more than clubs), simply because they are rare and unusual. Guns would definately be exotic weapons because of how rare and unusual they are.Based off Earth history, correct? :)Based off of simple physics. A barrel that is large enough to prevent a shot from getting jammed in the breach (and thus causing the gun to explode in your hand) is big enough that the shot bounces around in the barrel, which causes it to leave the muzzle in an essentially random direction that cannot be compensated for. You didn't aim a line like you do today so much as a large cone of "If its inside this cone, I might hit it, I might not". The shorter the barrel, the wider that cone became. It wasn't until the 1800s when rifling was invented that a gun actually became a serious weapon. Ever wonder why civil war soldiers would get in a big line and fire all their guns at once at the enemy? It was because those firearms were so horribly innaccurate, they needed shear probability of having that many guns shooting in the same direction to try and ensure that at least one or two actually HIT somebody. Ready Aim Fire is new, it was original "Ready, Steady, Fire" because it was simply impossible to actually aim one of those guns so much as just point it in the general direction and hope you hit. Ever hear of the Fog of War? Used a lot in video games like Warcraft. The term came from warfare with guns before smokeless powder, where so many guns firing actually threw up so much smoke, you could no longer SEE the enemy through it, the Fog of War came up, and you had to wait for it to blow away before you shoot again. Not to mention that the vast majority of gunmen before the modern era went deaf in at least one ear due to the loud blast a gun made. Not to mention that, when you had to fill powder and shot seperately, the real world rate of fire for a rifleman was about 2 shots per minute. Hell, the French military had a FOURTY SEVEN step process on how to reload and fire their matchlocks. And of course, without breachloading ammunition, you have to stop and clean the gun out between every shot, else a hot ember remain in the barrel as you pour new powder in, which would cause it to explode in your face. Guns, up until very modern times, were highly unreliable, and in any sort of engagement were essentially one shot items because they were so difficult and dangerous to reload. Ever see the pirate carrying two pistols in his belt? He didn't dual weild pistols, he carried two so he could shoot twice. After they fired, they basically threw the pistol to the ground and pulled a knife or sword to fight with, because the gun was now useless until they had time to sit down and reload it. Basically, if you want emergent guns, they are going to be unreliable, dangerous to the weilder, and good for one shot per combat. I typically find that most people who say they want guns in D&D only want very modern assault rifle style weapons, or revolvers, or something they can actually shoot every round and hit things, which early guns simply could not do. The ONLY reason guns remained in use during those early, dangerous years is that they were point and click to the point any idiot could pick one up and shoot it with minimum training just as well as a professional could (mainly because the guns were so terrible, skill was virtually uneeded, because you COULDN'T get better, because you were already at the weapon's limit). Making a gun and some powder, shoving them in a troops hands, and telling them to go shoot somebody was cheaper, faster, and more efficient than spending weeks or even months training them to use a sword or a bow, which were MUCH more effective in the hands of a professional than the best gunman could ever be.
Hola 07-04-05, 06:20 PM	guns were very hard to use (still are for shakys like me :) ) but thats when magic comes into play, its not a realistic factor its a I really love the look of pirates with a small simple gun that they can fire while swinging from ship to ship and looking all dashing factor. So lets ex the gun powder and throw an ebberon dragonshard in that powers and fires small progectile "bullets" through a wonderous item that looks like a gun for coolness. (though I use repeating heavy croosbows for mafia type dwarves, I love eberron)
vivid_disorder 07-04-05, 06:28 PM	I personally see Eberron pirates as being in the Medterranean corsair mode: more ram and board than massed broadsides after softening the thing up with ballistae and bowfire. Players get more to do, and it's easier to loot a ship who's crew you've killed than one who's hull you just holed. However, I see no reason why the gnomes who bind elementals into vessels couldn't somehow bind a fire elemental into a long tube which blasts out gobbets of elemental fire at enemies with a satisfying "thoom!" noise. In the Earthdawn RPG, the airships had similar weapons, but I don't have the books to hand to give the exact details. Thank you to Edymion for expressing my thoughts on musketry and the "fog of war" better than I did. Although I would add that a significant reason for the use of massed musket volleys was that they scared the living snot out of the enemy: it was very hard for undisciplined levies of troop to maintain their lines in the face of the noise and smoke, and would often break and run, even though they'd taken very few casualties. I'm doing a good deal on wands of fear if anyone's invading anywhere this weekend :D As a final point: there are other reasons why pirates also had lots of "gonnes" in their sashes and belts. 1) most of the time they didn't fire: shoddy powder, inefficient loading or a single splash of water (tough on seafaring pistoliers) would make it useless - carry eight, and one might just kill something other than the wielder. 2) It made them look really, really cool, and pirates always look cool. 3) So they could shoot those stupid ninjas eight times, just to make sure the lame bumbrains were properly dead :P
Keth_Rhiavadhi 07-05-05, 07:10 PM	Well really I can see something like guns apearing in Riedra, seeing as the inspired killed off all magic in sarlona (exception the keepers of the word in Adar) they would have developed something, psionics is an inspired only thing so I would assume somewere on the continent the people would be experimenting with stuff to better there lives (even if they only use it for fireworks) so I could see gunpowder on Sarlona. Dang... I had that same thought... eerie. I agree. I see Sarlona as a cross between Fuedal Japan and the Roman Empire anyway. Love the fireworks reference.
Arcane Guyver 07-05-05, 08:26 PM	So none of you guys have played Suikoden IV? That game is based in a Lhazaar Principalities-style island area, complete with magical ship-to-ship battles. Using spells instead of bullets can seem pretty messy for this sort of thing, but I'm betting there'd be precautions by both sides - anyone using Fireballs to attack enemy ships probably also has some spell(s) to control said flames before the ship is un-lootable. BTW, hand crossbows are weaksauce. They do like 1-3 damage without spending beaucoup bucks on poison or magical boosting. Better off just have the pirates wielding light blades & light crossbows for close combat, heavy crossbows while closing in on the enemy ship.
GMSteve 07-05-05, 09:46 PM	Seems to me that Iron Cobra wants guns in his campaign, so go for it. There is a great dragon article all about 'em. However, it also seems that Iron Cobra keeps posting trying to justify his use of guns, looking for acceptance from the on-line community (or convert others - I can't tell). I counted at least 4 posts saying the same thing over and again. Everyone has said - your game do what you want. But I seriously doubt that you are going to find any supporters that are going to say "What a great idea- that is what Eberron needs!", I think only a small minority would agree that eberron=guns=makes sense. Just ain't going to happen man, for the umpteen millon reasons given above.
vivid_disorder 07-05-05, 10:19 PM	It's true that hand crossbows are a bit "weaksauce" (they do only do d4 damage), but they are essentially a roguish weapon, and pirates are essentially roguish guys. Coupled with sneak attack damage, a dollop of poison, a bit of magical help, maybe improved critical, they can be fairly serious weapons (does weapon finesse increase damage? I can't remember off-hand). 1d4+2+3d6 for a fifth level pirate starts to a look a little more threatening, especially if he's got scorpion venom. It must be said, though, that a hand crossbow is only useful as long as your adversary doesn't know you have it, or while you have the drop on him. Also, remember that the average people of the world (i.e. the wallpaper) are lvl 1 commoners, with d4 hp - taking a hand crossbow wound is a bit more of a serious concern to these guys. While I'm willing to concede that they're not much use against a rampaging daelkyr, I think that the riff-raff would find them fairly threatening, and a pirate or a highwayman could therefore use one to succesfully coerce victims in the same way as his Earth equivalent would use a pistol.
Splendide 07-05-05, 10:45 PM	If anyone had a use for gunpowder, it would likely be assassins, purely because it doesn't detect as magical.
Hola 07-05-05, 10:57 PM	If anyone had a use for gunpowder, it would likely be assassins, purely because it doesn't detect as magical. hehehehehe I jsut have this image of a inspired ninga with a shotgun, it makes me giggle and then cry blood in shame. Oh guns in ebberon you've turned a good geek emo!
ralixgaudreau 07-05-05, 11:13 PM	is d20 Renaisance even a publish setting? I was sarcastic... :rolleye2: The irony here being that d20 Renaissance actually *is* a published setting. Sort of -- check out the d20 Modern page for a link to d20 Past.
ralixgaudreau 07-05-05, 11:18 PM	I played Eberron for a while and am going to start DMing after my birthday...I like the world and it's nuances, but having this as an emerging technology, that in no way "rules over magic" at this stage in it's devlopment is one idea i've penned in the past and was hoping to receive tips on implementing it. Rather than not implementing it. I think the problem that people are having with the idea is that in the real world, guns came along as part of a long string of technological improvements/advances, as we tinkered with various aspects of fire-based technologies. In the world of Eberron, you don't have a long history of such experimentation. As Keith has said over and over, the world advanced to its current state because of a long-standing practice of refining and improving the implementation of arcane magic, *NOT* technology. For firearms to be an "emerging technology," as you call them, there would have to be a solid foundation of prior technologies that support and naturally lead to the development of such devices, and that foundation isn't there. It's a matter of not having the tools you need to design the tools you need to design firearms. As many have said (and maybe I should read all the way to the end of the thread), it's your game, so do what you want. But, I add my voice to those who've said that they don't feel that firearms have a place in Eberron.
ralixgaudreau 07-05-05, 11:22 PM	Well really I can see something like guns apearing in Reidra (I hope I spelled it right I can't find my book), seeing as the inspired killed off all magic in sarlona (exception the keepers of the word in Adar) they would have developed something, psionics is an inspired only thing so I would assume somewere on the continent the people would be experimenting with stuff to better there lives (even if they only use it for fireworks) so I could see gunpowder on Sarlona. I think seeing as how the Lhaazar and Reidra are chums they could trade weapons. If only so we could give the pirates guns, I just see these cool flintlocks with a small sibyrius(again spelling someone correct me) dragon shards that you pull back on with your thum instead of the....regular....thingys I disagree. The Riedrans are all about domination -- they hunted down sorcerers and outlawed arcane magic on Sarlona because it's an effective weapon against the psionic powers they use to dominate the people of the continent. If you give the people gunpowder and guns, then you put back into their hands the very kind of weapon you worked so hard to take away. Just ask the nobility of the late middle ages / early renaissance what it was like to try to pacify enemies armed with gunpowder weapons. No, the Riedrans would work to suppress knowledge of a weapon as potentially effective as gunpowder, to make sure any random person with a rebellious thought wouldn't find himself with the means to strike out at the leaders. And they'd doubly want to make sure that such a weapon did not get into the hands of the Adarans.
Naudachu 07-06-05, 07:57 PM	There are perfectly good "bullets" used in slings and why not find a better way to propel them? Create a weapon that wouldn't provoke an attack of opportunity in melee. I agree gunpowder doesn't make much sense though. You could use the idea of a one-use magic item, like the feather fall tokens of Sharn. A barrel built with a bullet embedded that is fired by a compressed gust of wind. (I believe that's short range.) There might be a better spell. Another idea that helps limit them to Lhazaar is hidden caches on the islands. Where did they come from? Isolationist Dhakaani tribe? Early Dwarves traveling down from the frozen north? The Mror Dwarves did lose knowledge of the wonders of their ancestors. Wouldn't it be ironic if there were some staring them right in the face (and then blowing it off)?