Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Dheran 02-04-07, 10:43 PM	Natural Healing does not occur in the Mournland and spell and spell-like effects of the healing subschool do not work. I'm thinking about joining a game set in the Mournland, and I don't have any experience with this setting. I searched and found this link: Mournland's Lack of Healing. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=276151) I'd like to explore ways to heal that don't involve getting out of the Mournland, including exiting to extradimensional space. So far the Goodberry spell looks promising. I'm not sure if regeneration and fast healing work in the Mournland; do they count as "natural healing"? And what about grafts? Stocking up on temporary hit points before or during combat (think Vampiric Touch) is another fairly obvious tactic. Constructs are the premier choice for characters to survive here, because they can be repaired normally. What's the easiest way for a regular humanoid character to acquire the Construct type? I guess Polymorph Any Object would work, but that's a pretty high level spell just to become eligible for "healing". The thread I found is pretty old. Surely someone has come up with better tactics for surviving in the Mournland since then, so please, people, help me out.
mahavira 02-04-07, 11:10 PM	Tomb tainted soul from Libris Mortis. You heal from inflict spells and are harmed by heal spells. Inflict spells are not from the healing subschool and work just fine in the Mournland. Obviously this is mostly useful for a villain with undead minions and area effect negative energy spells.
yrogerg 02-05-07, 12:52 AM	Some psionic effects, such as Empathic Transfer and Hostile Empathic Transfer can be useful for "healing" damage, by shifting it someone with the Hitpoints to spare, to a Repair-able Warforged, or in the latter case, to an enemy target. Not strictly healing, as the damage still exists, but it largely has the same effect, and unlike Temporary Hit points, they're not temporary. A Paladin's Lay on Hands, and whatever ability Dragon Shamans get are also not Conjuration (Healing), and thus usable. Also, I'm not sure, but I think that by and large, Fast Healing and Regeneration are considered extensions of natural healing. Same with Polymorph and its siblings, as "the subject regains lost hit points as if it had rested for a night", but resting for a night doesn't do anything. Finally, to take Tomb Tainted Soul a step further, take that, and a 1-or-2-level dip into Dread Necromancer for Charnel Touch, and you can self-heal yourself, 1 HP at a time.
Darth Syntax 02-05-07, 02:16 AM	I'm actually far more cruel than the rules. No healing (or any other means of regaining lost HP) works at all in the Mornlands. Better to stay away, or be careful.
Dheran 02-05-07, 09:31 PM	I'm actually far more cruel than the rules. No healing (or any other means of regaining lost HP) works at all in the Mornlands. So you'll keep Warforged from repairing themselves?
BlinkDOGwrangler 02-05-07, 09:56 PM	Warforged are not healed, they are repaired...In the Mournlands.
pegasuspaladin 02-05-07, 11:34 PM	i've put this in another thread as well but i discovered a loop hole. rope trick, mordekain magnificent masion and other effects that create nondimensional spaces allow for healing spells to work fine. Well my party took it a step further. their patron gave them a hewards handy haversack (operates as 3 bags of holding, the largest of which allows 80lbs, a bag of holding is a nondimensional space). The paranoid, halfling rogue hid inside the bag to spy on his party (the party had already done the knowledge arcana check to recognize it as a hewards handy haversack). Then upon reaching the mournland i had them roll some more knowledge checks and 3 of the four party members knew something was off with healing spells in the mournland. they put two and two together and realized the nondimensional space inside the haversack would allow them to heal normally. Mind you I allow this but during battle there are massive penalties with AoO and its never less than a full round (that's only if the cleric is next to the person) for those DM's who say you don't allow nondimensional spaces i ask, what happens to the stuff inside a bag of holding in one of your PC's is carrying one?
Dheran 02-06-07, 07:58 PM	I'd like to explore ways to heal that don't involve getting out of the Mournland, including exiting to extradimensional space. i've put this in another thread as well but i discovered a loop hole. rope trick, mordekain magnificent masion and other effects that create nondimensional spaces allow for healing spells to work fine. I explicitly asked to exclude this; the DM said it's just not going to work. Do I have to say "pretty please"? :rolleyes:
pegasuspaladin 02-06-07, 08:30 PM	that's why i put the final part, the question to you dm who's trying to cheat you guys. ask him what happens to the stuff in a bag of holding.
Cabral 02-06-07, 09:37 PM	that's why i put the final part, the question to you dm who's trying to cheat you guys. ask him what happens to the stuff in a bag of holding. It's a perfectly reasonable ruling. Why does the mournland behave the way it does? Maybe it's the poisoned air your took with into your extradimensional space. :P
MaxDog 03-04-07, 09:03 PM	This strikes me as a perfect place to house rule a new use for Action Points. Through heroic effort, a pious cleric of the Sovereign Host overcomes, briefly, the foul magic of the Mournlands and summons forth healing positive energy. Mechanically, make it one action point per spell level -- or some such. If you don't permit leveling while in the Mournlands, it effectively limits the number of times a caster could do this. Another possibility that comes to mind is to tie it to turning attempts -- to get healing magics (spells or items) to function, a cleric would need to channel positive energy. Just noodling here....
fiendish_platypus 03-05-07, 07:16 AM	I think that Crusaders (ToB) can heal themselves, not 100% sure though, never used them and too lazy to look it up. Psionics- I seem to remember a really weak power that healed like 1d10 damage (but I think you can increase that), I believe its in EPH. Magic- Rope Trick (I think it takes you to some demiplane were healing works). Party of all 'forged, Repair spells still work I believe. Sorry if any of these have already been suggested, to lazy to look.
Sereno 03-05-07, 09:32 AM	IIRC, a Paladins Lay on Hands ability also still works in the Mournland, too.
Edymnion 03-05-07, 12:55 PM	that's why i put the final part, the question to you dm who's trying to cheat you guys. ask him what happens to the stuff in a bag of holding.Ahem, I don't allow healing of any kind in the Mournlands either. No extradimensional space, no goodberry wine, nothing. Only ways to regain hp are to be a warforged being repaired, or through hostile healing (causing damage to one being to give hp to another, usually yourself), and hostile healing only works at half power. DM isn't trying to cheat anybody, he's trying to stick to the spirit of the Mournlands, and not what the rules laywer munchkins turned it into. The Mournlands should be a place that makes you quake in your boots at the mear thought of getting into a fight, not someplace that just makes it mildly inconvenient.
DarkWarriorKarg 03-05-07, 01:09 PM	DM isn't trying to cheat anybody, he's trying to stick to the spirit of the Mournlands, and not what the rules laywer munchkins turned it into. The Mournlands should be a place that makes you quake in your boots at the mear thought of getting into a fight, not someplace that just makes it mildly inconvenient. Just as a note, the above "Rule Lawyer Munchkins" include the game designers. Regardless of people's opinions, those are houserules, not the rules as written. To the OP, as your DM is instituting houserules, you should simply ask your DM what will work, as your DM might simply nerf whatever we come up with here anyway. And by RAW, the Mournlands are nasty enough, with most ways of substantially healing anything having to involve extradimentional spaces. The non-spell based healing methods are limited and, are at best, a band-aid.
Sereno 03-05-07, 02:15 PM	The Mournlands should be a place that makes you quake in your boots at the mear thought of getting into a fight, not someplace that just makes it mildly inconvenient. As someone who was an active participant of the 1001 Mournland Horrors thread, I can say that the total lack of any healing isn't necessary to make people terrified of entering. IMO, without *any* way to heal I can't conceive of any reason why someone would try to accomplish *anything* in the Mournland, more than the merest dash in from the edge of the mists to recover something. If it's going to be a place so absolutely deadly to all races by the WF, you might as well not even have it.
DyloniusFunk 03-05-07, 03:11 PM	Ahem, I don't allow healing of any kind in the Mournlands either. No extradimensional space, no goodberry wine, nothing. Only ways to regain hp are to be a warforged being repaired, or through hostile healing (causing damage to one being to give hp to another, usually yourself), and hostile healing only works at half power. DM isn't trying to cheat anybody, he's trying to stick to the spirit of the Mournlands, and not what the rules laywer munchkins turned it into. The Mournlands should be a place that makes you quake in your boots at the mear thought of getting into a fight, not someplace that just makes it mildly inconvenient. Are you referring to Keith Baker as a "Rules Lawyer Munchkin"? Because the exceptions to the No Conjuration(Healing) in the Mournaland rule has been around since the ECS. If you want to houserule it thats fine but don't assume that everyone else wants to play it that way. You obviously go for a harsher kind of game, but some of us like having a few options available. It seems like the Mournland is a dangerous enough place without removing what few options the players have to recover.
Cifer 03-05-07, 06:28 PM	I, too, believe the Mournland to be deadly and frightening enough as it is (though I'd still say D&D has bad mechanics for horror settings). You need a relatively lengthy process to do any significant healing (rope trick, healer climbs up, patient climbs up, healer heals, patient climbs down, healer climbs down). The healing done by paladins, crusaders or druids is a mere pittance that may save someone from dying, but won't do that often. If nothing works, well, then the game stops being Dungeons and Dragons, the game where adventuring groups venture into dangerous places, and becomes Cowards and Corporates, the game where adventuring groups pay a group of Warforged to get stuff out of the damn fogs. Finally, if you allow something to work, there's always the moment someone goes "Huh. That's not what should have happened if I do this..." - it doesn't need to be life-threatening, but it may add tension. My favorite idea regarding this involved the rope trick. Some day when resting, a character looking at the void at the edges of the room spots something for a short time, a long way away. The next days, it gets nearer and nearer, until it can be seen clutching the "walls" of the room...
davethebrave371 03-05-07, 06:56 PM	There was a Feat I read somewhere (I don't recall...PGtE maybe? A Dragon mag? Maybe it was even here on the boards...) that made it so you could heal normally in the Mournlands, but that you couldn't heal anywhere BUT the Mournlands. There is also a new prestige class in Dragonmarked that counteracts, one by one, all the downsides of the Mournlands.
Splendide 03-05-07, 07:56 PM	My recommendation is to rely on spells that grant temporary hit points. Load up before the fight, then post-fight who needs healing?
Edymnion 03-05-07, 08:11 PM	Are you referring to Keith Baker as a "Rules Lawyer Munchkin"? Because the exceptions to the No Conjuration(Healing) in the Mournaland rule has been around since the ECS. If you want to houserule it thats fine but don't assume that everyone else wants to play it that way. You obviously go for a harsher kind of game, but some of us like having a few options available. It seems like the Mournland is a dangerous enough place without removing what few options the players have to recover.My Mournlands are a place that nobody just decides to go willy nilly into, and anybody stupid enough to think "CHARGE!" is a valid combat strategy within the mists deserves the horrible death they just earned for themselves. The Mournlands are dangerous, but they aren't lethal unless the characters are stupid. You avoid any fight you can possibly avoid, you run away from anything you can run away from, and if you have to fight, you do everything in your power to set up an ambush with ranged attacks to utterly destroy your target before they have a chance to react. But you see, while NPCs can play it smart, PCs tend to be greedy, and hence stupid. Many players see an encounter and just think of the xp and treasure, and go blundering in like a bull in a china shop, with no reguards for the consequences of their actions. And thats how you die in my Mournlands. The only reason you go in there is to complete an objective, not power level. You get in, you do whatever you came to do, and you get out. You don't take side trips. You don't get into fights because its "easy xp/treasure". You fight smart, you use Warforged hirelings as your melee line of defense (since they can be repaired), and you make it out alive. But again, PCs are typically greedy and stupid. They won't take hirelings because it lowers the xp they get from fights. They won't run away. They tend to do little more than run up and hit the monster until it stops moving. Thats fighting stupid, and most of the time they can afford to get away with taking stupid risks, because the cleric can always patch them up afterwards. Can't do that in my Mournlands. Stupid = Dead.
davethebrave371 03-05-07, 08:41 PM	My Mournlands are a place that nobody just decides to go willy nilly into, and anybody stupid enough to think "CHARGE!" is a valid combat strategy within the mists deserves the horrible death they just earned for themselves. The Mournlands are dangerous, but they aren't lethal unless the characters are stupid. You avoid any fight you can possibly avoid, you run away from anything you can run away from, and if you have to fight, you do everything in your power to set up an ambush with ranged attacks to utterly destroy your target before they have a chance to react. But you see, while NPCs can play it smart, PCs tend to be greedy, and hence stupid. Many players see an encounter and just think of the xp and treasure, and go blundering in like a bull in a china shop, with no reguards for the consequences of their actions. And thats how you die in my Mournlands. The only reason you go in there is to complete an objective, not power level. You get in, you do whatever you came to do, and you get out. You don't take side trips. You don't get into fights because its "easy xp/treasure". You fight smart, you use Warforged hirelings as your melee line of defense (since they can be repaired), and you make it out alive. But again, PCs are typically greedy and stupid. They won't take hirelings because it lowers the xp they get from fights. They won't run away. They tend to do little more than run up and hit the monster until it stops moving. Thats fighting stupid, and most of the time they can afford to get away with taking stupid risks, because the cleric can always patch them up afterwards. Can't do that in my Mournlands. Stupid = Dead. While that's all very interesting, and I've seen this hashed and rehashed by you in many threads, perhaps we could keep it on topic? He didn't ask what to tell his DM to do as regards wiping out healing, he asked how, without extradimensional tricks, a DM going by RAW could be trumped. Off topic here: As a DM, I utilize a Mournland where all the tricks players have work as much as I have magic work...which is to say, at my whims. The characters in my campaign are wary about using anything since the Ghallanda heir used her Greater Mark ability to create a nice mansion for them...that, the next morning upon awaking in each of their rooms, seperated, exited out into some kind of void into which one of the characters ventured tentatively and didn't return. No amount of divination or clairsentience, inside or out of the Mournland, has given any definitive information on anything to do with that character (beyond the diviner blacking out for 1d20 hours - the level of the spell to a minimum of one). So I agree with the deadliness, and it is deadly how I run it, and it is scary for my players, and their characters are afraid of it, and dread going there (and have refused to do so before...a hook with rotten bait, as one player put it). I understand where you're coming from in wanting to say, "BOO RAW MOURNLANDS" But that's not what the guy asked. But see what I just did there? I went off topic. The topic is, to remind everybody, what can we do, by RAW, without extradimensional spaces...assuming this DM is a) not Edy, which I think is safe to assume. b) More reliable than me! :schemes:
yrogerg 03-05-07, 08:42 PM	My Mournlands are a place that nobody just decides to go willy nilly into, and anybody stupid enough to think "CHARGE!" is a valid combat strategy within the mists deserves the horrible death they just earned for themselves. The Mournlands are dangerous, but they aren't lethal unless the characters are stupid. You avoid any fight you can possibly avoid, you run away from anything you can run away from, and if you have to fight, you do everything in your power to set up an ambush with ranged attacks to utterly destroy your target before they have a chance to react. But you see, while NPCs can play it smart, PCs tend to be greedy, and hence stupid. Many players see an encounter and just think of the xp and treasure, and go blundering in like a bull in a china shop, with no reguards for the consequences of their actions. And thats how you die in my Mournlands. The only reason you go in there is to complete an objective, not power level. You get in, you do whatever you came to do, and you get out. You don't take side trips. You don't get into fights because its "easy xp/treasure". You fight smart, you use Warforged hirelings as your melee line of defense (since they can be repaired), and you make it out alive. But again, PCs are typically greedy and stupid. They won't take hirelings because it lowers the xp they get from fights. They won't run away. They tend to do little more than run up and hit the monster until it stops moving. Thats fighting stupid, and most of the time they can afford to get away with taking stupid risks, because the cleric can always patch them up afterwards. Can't do that in my Mournlands. Stupid = Dead. Erm, but if NPCs are so smart and non-greedy, why the heck are they hiring themselves out for forays into the most dangerous place in the world? SotLW was pretty good about making it clear that even hirelings aren't all too willing to follow you in there. Even still-dependent-on-other-people-surviving-in-order-to-heal warforged. Oddly enough, my parties have acted exactly like your hypothetical "smart parties", despite the fact that the healing restriction was *weaker* than the standard ECS's -we used a "healing magic requires a spellcraft check" variant, but we also didn't have a Good-aligned Cleric, so enh. It was still probably mostly because the encounters were appropriately dangerous, and occurred at unpredictable intervals. Oh, and Taint. We accrued Taint if we stayed there too long.
Edymnion 03-05-07, 09:54 PM	While that's all very interesting, and I've seen this hashed and rehashed by you in many threads, perhaps we could keep it on topic? He didn't ask what to tell his DM to do as regards wiping out healing, he asked how, without extradimensional tricks, a DM going by RAW could be trumped. I think its good for him to know that what to expect is going to depend heavily on the DM, and that it doesn't matter what is rules legal, as the DM can easily overrule it. Bottom line is that the DM *CANNOT* be trumped. If he doesn't want you to heal, *NOTHING* you can do is going to make you heal.Erm, but if NPCs are so smart and non-greedy, why the heck are they hiring themselves out for forays into the most dangerous place in the world?Then why are the PCs going in? PCs and NPCs have no differance in their motivation. There is nothing that can get a PC party into the Mournlands that couldn't also be applied to NPCs. Money, power, fame. The sourcebooks specifically mention Cannith South as being a group that makes regular expiditions into the Mournlands to try and recover lost magics. SotLW was pretty good about making it clear that even hirelings aren't all too willing to follow you in there. Even still-dependent-on-other-people-surviving-in-order-to-heal warforged.These are the same adventures that include working healing potions. And just because most of them aren't going to risk their lives going in, there will be some, if you look hard enough, and offer big enough rewards.
JulesCARV 03-06-07, 01:35 AM	This is rather high level (7th level spell), but if you summon an avoral with Summon Monster VII, the avoral has Lay on Hands for 66 hit points. Leonals too, but they're even higher level. Heroes' Feast, although rather high level (6), is good for curing diseases and such. Feast of Champions is better, although it is 9th level. As far as psionics goes, bear in mind that while empathic transfer is psychometabolism, body adjustment is psychometabolism (healing), so an egoist or psychic warrior can heal others in the Mournland (with a buffer of Vigor), but not himself. If your party isn't good, another psionic thing to keep in mind is Psychic Reformation (4th level psion/wilder power). You could temporarily give yourselves tomb-tainted souls, and if a cleric or anyone else can inflict wounds on you, then you can heal, maybe keeping a few wands of inflict light wounds about. If you survive the mournlands and get out, the psion can psychicly reform you again, swapping out your tomb-tainted souls for some more useful feat.