Post/Author/DateTime	Post
aelryinth 01-07-07, 07:19 PM	I'm a mite interested in a somewhat broader conversion to Eberron for the Savage Tide Adventure Path. So far the only conversion notes detail the city of Sasserine...which is important up to, um, level 4...and then you never see it again. I've construed the the Crimson Fleet probably works best as a radical offshoot of the Blood of Vol, OR is a very visible Cult of the Lords of Dust what with the demonic transformation. Is Demogorgon supposed to be a Rajah, perhaps imprisoned under the Isle of Dread, or are we talking about a free entity? ANd on which plane? As an elder Demon Lord, I can't see him being part of the Plane of Battle, nor of the Darkness that is Mabar. Perhaps one of the primal evil elemental forces of Thalannis...but then we also get into who is his rival, because the Queen of Succubi doesn't quite fit if they don't come from the same plane, unless she's a Lord of Dust in opposition to what he is doing (although why is a whole nuther story...). I can definitely see the Dreaming Dark being involved...A Savage Tide ripping apart Khorvaire's cities would be a huge boon to them, and they could be a massive and subtle force behind the whole thing, manipulating it to come about (they have low level agents in both Sasserine and near the Island...including patrols on the Island proper if you sub the Scarlet Brotherhood for them). In short, I'm a bit stuck on how the whole high level cosmology interacts with Eberron. Got some input? ===Aelryinth
mhacdebhandia 01-08-07, 02:44 AM	They'll post the conversion for each adventure in due time, of course. Is Demogorgon supposed to be a Rajah, perhaps imprisoned under the Isle of Dread, or are we talking about a free entity? ANd on which plane? Uh, did you read the general notes in the first conversion document? Demogorgon is one of the rakshasa rajahs, one of the lords of the world within the world - his realm is in Khyber, not constrained by the physical size of the planet Eberron and thus just as big as it would be in the Abyss in another setting. It seems to me that the chaos and destruction wrought by the Savage Tide is probably something the Dreaming Dark would be against - they want things to remaind static, remember, in order to delay the turn of the age. While they might conceivably initiate wars of their own making in order to bring Khorvaire under their stable dominion, I doubt they'd be supporting the kind of uncontrolled chaos the Savage Tide would represent. It would disrupt all of their existing plans; it would represent much more of a blow to their schemes than an opportunity upon which they can capitalise.
aelryinth 01-08-07, 05:38 AM	The Savage Tide is only a blow to the qu'ori if it happens to their Sarlonan pawns. If it happens to everyone ELSE...well, that's just WONDERFUL. Demogorgon as an imprisoned rajah doesn't work very well. He can't have any personal hand in this...everything would have to be done by a stand in. Too, it removes the whole 'friction of planes' concept from the later adventures. A rajah doesn't have a realm within his imprisonment...he is imprisoned! So, I'm trying to justify which of the various planar realities he'd be on. Hopping around the planes of Eberron is much more fun then having to delve into Daelkyr-land... ==+Aerlyinth
ArcTan 01-08-07, 02:33 PM	Really, I can't see a justification for an entity of Demogorgon's scale of evil in Eberron except as an Overlord. The nature of the Overlords' imprisonment is never made completely clear -- it may be that Demogorgon's realm is a massive region over which he has full control from his perspective, but is tightly sealed off from the outside world and even from the rest of Khyber and can only be accessed through very selective means. (Imagine what looks like a tiny crystal bound into stone and wrapped with iron chains from the outside -- and then breaking through it to find the horrific phantasmagoria of Demogorgon's Realm, and realizing that if the internal seals are broken *all of this* will spill out into the real world.)
Hellcow 01-08-07, 05:33 PM	I don't know what Paizo's web enhancement schedule is, but I'm bound by that... and I am REALLY slammed for time right now, so I can't get into an extensive discussion. With that said, Mhacdebhandia is right about my general approach. What I've said is: Demogorgon is one of the lords of the worlds within the world. While he is weaker than the great Overlords of the Age of Demons, he is one of the mightiest spirits that remains unbound. He stands apart from the Lords of Dust; he seeks to claim the power of the rajahs for his own, not to free these ancient spirits. He is a patient being, and his plans take centuries to unfold. Now his latest scheme is coming to fruition, as the savage tide begins to rise. Demogorgon is weaker than the Overlords of the first age. His equivalent divine rank is far lower than the typical rajah that's been presented. Nonetheless, he is also more powerful than the average member of the Council of Ashtakala. He is a unique and tremendously powerful being - a child of Khyber and lord of the Age of Demons, but not an Overlord. He is not bound as they are, and thus he is free to scheme. He operates under his own limitations, but it's a different set of rules than the rajahs. There are certainly other approaches one can take, and I am all for DMs developing their own ideas. However, in the conversions I've done, I am following the idea that the Abyss is part of Khyber - and instead of friction between the planes, you're getting friction between the Dragon Below and the Dragon Between. Hopping around the planes of Eberron is much more fun then having to delve into Daelkyr-land... Which is why I'd prefer to make "Daelkyr-land" more interesting. It's not just a bunch of caves; according to myth, it's Khyber - the primal source of evil! Personally, I love the idea that the Abyss - with its nigh-infinite terrors - is underneath your feet, if you can only find an entrance. As it stands, none of the planes of Eberron are planes of evil; Shavarath is home to demons, but it is a plane of war. But Khyber? That's evil, baby. But, again, regardless of my approach, you should do what you want to do. The evil within is the path I'm taking - but if you want to focus on planar adventures, go for it! I really don't have time to explore that path here, but it's exactly what these boards are for.
mhacdebhandia 01-08-07, 05:36 PM	The Savage Tide is only a blow to the qu'ori if it happens to their Sarlonan pawns. If it happens to everyone ELSE...well, that's just WONDERFUL. I think you're wrong. Keith has made it fairly clear that he, at least, feels that the quori are interested in maintaining Eberron in stasis, in order to stave off the turning of the age and their consequent destruction. I'm guessing you care what he thinks, since you're asking about it. ;) You can do what you like, but it seems to me that the vast chaos and destruction promised by the Savage Tide would be disastrous for the quori's plans - there's no way they could get enough of a handle on things to properly capitalise on the aftermath. Demogorgon as an imprisoned rajah doesn't work very well. He can't have any personal hand in this...everything would have to be done by a stand in. Too, it removes the whole 'friction of planes' concept from the later adventures. A rajah doesn't have a realm within his imprisonment...he is imprisoned! Keith says otherwise: Legends say that in the dawn of time, the vile dragon Khyber spawned fiends in the darkness, monsters that tormented the children of Eberron. . . . As spawn of Khyber, the demons of Eberron are not tied to any planar agenda, nor bound to the great war of Shavarath. Instead, they embody Khyber’s wrath and hatred of the world above. They seek to corrupt and destroy the children of Eberron. Some may seek to free the Overlords of the Age of Demons, and these fiends usually join with the Lords of Dust. But many are spirits of pure chaos and evil, and seek only the pleasure of sowing discord and pain across Eberron. . . . An adventurer who ventures too far beneath the surface of Eberron will be amazed by the horrors that lurk below. A deep cavern can open into the endless maze of Baphomet. A whirlpool can draw unwary travelers into the abyssal ocean . . . While these are not outer planes, they exist beyond normal space and cannot be reached by normal forms of teleportation; travelers must either find the proper path between the realms or employ planar magic to step into these demiplanes. . . . Demogorgon is one of the lords of the worlds within the world. While he is weaker than the great Overlords of the Age of Demons, he is one of the mightiest spirits that remains unbound. He stands apart from the Lords of Dust; he seeks to claim the power of the rajahs for his own, not to free these ancient spirits. I mistakenly identified Demogorgon as a rajah earlier, having misremembered that detail. I think he works very well as "one of the mightiest spirits that remains unbound".
The White Sorcerer 01-08-07, 05:36 PM	The Savage Tide is only a blow to the qu'ori if it happens to their Sarlonan pawns. If it happens to everyone ELSE...well, that's just WONDERFUL. Umm... How? How is something that upsets the status quo as much as the Tide in the interests of the quori? The Tide doesn't do much to further their goal of a static Eberron.
Edymnion 01-08-07, 05:49 PM	Hellcow, if you've the time...I'm not Keith, but... *looks at watch* Its 5:49. :rimshot:
goblin_pride 01-08-07, 06:42 PM	I'm not Keith, but... *looks at watch* Its 5:49. :rimshot: Always one in every crowd, ennit?
aelryinth 01-08-07, 06:44 PM	Umm... How? How is something that upsets the status quo as much as the Tide in the interests of the quori? The Tide doesn't do much to further their goal of a static Eberron. ??? I am rather dumbfounded that something as obvious as this is even a point of debate. It's entirely probable that the Whole of the Last War started because of the qu'ori. Now there is a wild and chaotic situation, with the innovation of war actually in many ways making the 5N stronger. Why would the qu'ori start the last war when all they want is stasis? hello>......it's what comes AFTER the civil war that they are planning on the stasis. Just like in Sarlona. Now, you utterly obliterate any possibility of organized resistance with the Savage tide. basically, all that's left is civil war and savagery, before the surviving Savages die or get killed off. Remember, the Tide isn't world wide...it's located around each and every pearl that goes off. So Khorvaire gets slammed with a Savage Tide around every single population center. Mass slaughter, death, destruction, barbarism, etc etc. And in waltz the Sarlonans to save everyone and seamlessly take over, providing stability, safety, security. The Savage tide, to the Qu'Ori viewpoint, is nothing more then a faster version of the civil war and internal conflict that they used to take over Sarlona. As I said, as long as it didn't affect their own people (and thus destroy their own grip on power), they'd be HAPPY to see everyone else get slammed by one. It'd advance their plots and purposes by centuries. ===Aelryinth
Hellcow 01-08-07, 06:48 PM	Mhacdebhandia is quoting the second piece I did for the ST, so I assume it's out there somewhere. I certainly understand the frustration about the updates not keeping pace with the adventures, but it does give you the direction I'm taking. The goals of the Dreaming Dark will be explored in more detail in Secrets of Sarlona, but for the most part, the goal is to spread stability and stagnation across humanoid civilization. This is one argument for the Quori being less of a threat than the daelkyr or Lords of Dust. The Inspired want to control your life and more important, your dreams, but they'll keep a roof over your head. The daelkyr, on the other hand, want to shatter the world and dance in the ruins. But as with all things Eberron, you're always free to follow your own path!
Hellcow 01-08-07, 06:51 PM	The Savage tide, to the Qu'Ori viewpoint, is nothing more then a faster version of the civil war and internal conflict that they used to take over Sarlona. Presented this way, I agree. As long as the end result is a stable world under Quori control, the DD would be for it. The issue is that they want control, not destruction - the Last War may have served their purposes, but the Mourning did not, for multiple reasons.
aelryinth 01-08-07, 07:45 PM	The Mournland STOPPED the fighting. From the Qu'Ori viewpoint, that's a bad thing. also, WHAT made the Mournland? If they don't know, then that power could be turned on them. If they DO know...that power could still be turned on them! The 'common threat' of the Mournland is actually fostering cooperation and renewed trade in Khorvaire. That's a bad thing. Cyrans are running around looking for causes for the Mournland. Some of them are finding out about qu'ori plots. Some of them are kalashtar and starting to spread the truth about Riedra. Explorers are seeing the big monoliths and starting to get an inkling of what they are for. Nope, the Mournland wasn't good for the DD at all. ================= Presented as literally the 'lower plane' of Eberron, Khyber actually sounds rather interesting...I'm just wondering how to justify 'sailing' there as the synopsis of the various chapters of the adventures reads out. In my stories, I was looking forwards to sailing the Sea Raptor into the Abyss... ==Aelryinth
mhacdebhandia 01-08-07, 09:39 PM	Keith, the second conversion document was actually put online at the same time as the first - on Paizo's website, they're both available in the same "news item" as the document for converting "The Bullywug Gambit" to the Forgotten Realms and Eberron.
mhacdebhandia 01-08-07, 10:11 PM	My issue with the Dreaming Dark's approving of the Savage Tide is not that the quori are against capitalising on chaos and conflict - that's how they conquered Sarlona, after all (something which is noted in Keith's conversion notes: Sasserine was founded by refugees from Sarlona fleeing the wars which paved the way for the Inspired). My issue is that I don't really think the Dreaming Dark would be sanguine about a chaotic phenomenon caused by a demon too powerful for them to control (either directly or indirectly), and which will undo whatever schemes the quori themselves might have in train simply by virtue of transforming all their pawns and agents into savage monsters. Yes, you could argue that the Dreaming Dark are willing to take the risk. I don't think it's very likely that they would be, is all. Why hitch their wagons to such an unpredictable and dangerous horse? It just seems much more likely to me that the Dreaming Dark would view the threat of the Savage Tide as something that will foment more instability and change than they can handle.
Bluenose 01-09-07, 11:03 AM	I've been looking at converting this myself. In my interpretation the Crimson Fleet are anti-DD Sarlonans. They are involved with the Demogorgon cult because it gives them a way to strike at Sarlona, by using the Shadow Pearls to create chaos in Sarlonan cities. They want to overthrow the current order in Sarlona and are willing to make sacrifices to do it. Never mind the huge number of people who'll die, they deserve it for siding with the Inspired :rolleyes: In this case the players might find themselves being aided by the Inspired. Whether they'll enjoy that is another question. :D
eehamburg 01-09-07, 12:18 PM	I'm not Keith, but... *looks at watch* Its 5:49. :rimshot: Now, edy, this has got to be one of the best lines that I have seen in a long long time ... truly cracked me up during my lunch break. :cookie: :cookie:
Hellcow 01-09-07, 12:26 PM	In my stories, I was looking forwards to sailing the Sea Raptor into the Abyss... Which is, essentially, the idea of the Abyss as literal underworld. The connections between the two are magical as much as physical, but if you sail your vessel into Eberron's answer to the Bermuda Triangle (the Grey Tide, perhaps), and while there steer directly into a terrible storm, if your ship survives the experience, you may reach the Abyssal Ocean that lies on the other side.
eehamburg 01-09-07, 12:35 PM	Which is, essentially, the idea of the Abyss as literal underworld. The connections between the two are magical as much as physical, but if you sail your vessel into Eberron's answer to the Bermuda Triangle (the Grey Tide, perhaps), and while there steer directly into a terrible storm, if your ship survives the experience, you may reach the Abyssal Ocean that lies on the other side. You were watching the Simpsons on Sunday, weren'tcha?
goblin_pride 01-09-07, 04:59 PM	You were watching the Simpsons on Sunday, weren'tcha? He could also be drawing on the primevil oceans that lie at the heart of every storm. What we call the eye of the storm now was a bit of a wonder to sailors in older days, often thought to be gateway into another world. Riding the deck through near-cataclysmic storms only to find yourself becalmed mere moments later was a source of awe and wonder to those who actually tried navigating the storm rather than trying to outrun them.
eehamburg 01-09-07, 05:55 PM	He could also be drawing on the primevil oceans that lie at the heart of every storm. What we call the eye of the storm now was a bit of a wonder to sailors in older days, often thought to be gateway into another world. Riding the deck through near-cataclysmic storms only to find yourself becalmed mere moments later was a source of awe and wonder to those who actually tried navigating the storm rather than trying to outrun them. I was just quoting from the Simpsons where they did a retake on the movie "the Perfect Storm"
goblin_pride 01-10-07, 12:43 AM	I was just quoting from the Simpsons where they did a retake on the movie "the Perfect Storm" What's the Simpsons?
eehamburg 01-11-07, 12:03 PM	What's the Simpsons? This past Sunday's
goblin_pride 01-11-07, 12:17 PM	This past Sunday's No, what are the Simpsons?
eehamburg 01-11-07, 12:38 PM	No, what are the Simpsons? Oh ... in the US, they are a cartoon series that has been on TV for almost 2 decades. Here's the link: http://www.thesimpsons.com/index.html
goblin_pride 01-12-07, 11:26 AM	*snickers*
eehamburg 01-12-07, 11:35 AM	*snickers* Is that good or bad?
goblin_pride 01-12-07, 11:37 AM	Is that good or bad? I was just pulling your chain, I know what the simpsons is, I just wanted to see if you would or could explain it.
eehamburg 01-12-07, 12:16 PM	I was just pulling your chain, I know what the simpsons is, I just wanted to see if you would or could explain it. Not everyone gets it, so maybe you were from a country that didn't get it....