Hellcow- I've 2 questions. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Hellcow- I've 2 questions. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
ChronosCrow
06-11-04, 06:04 AM Hey man, first off props on the book, way to go.
1. There are 3 very nice Item creation feats that take off 25% of either gp, xp, or time when crafting an item. A footnote says multiples of one feat can stack. However there is no clarification in what order you do the math. Is it if you have 4 feats in Extraordinary Artisan then are magic items 100% off? Or is it that you take 25% off each time so that it's 25% off the first price then 25% off the new second price and so on? I'll venture a guess that's it the second option since it'd be kinda odd if magical items didn't cost any gp.

2. There are 2 feats that add to skills the basic set of rules that d20 Modern covers over those skills. A. Research and B. Invesitigation. The question is if the party wanted to do such things, but no PC had the avaliable feats what could at least be done to gain a similar, but ofcourse less effective means to and end? A. Gather Information and Search checks in libraries? B. Search checks?

Thank you for your time.
Josh Wilhoyte
06-11-04, 09:28 AM What do Research and Investigation grant you, and what do they require to use? Maybe we can figure it out for you if Hellcow is still off the boards a fair amount.
Hellcow
06-11-04, 12:37 PM I'll get back to you once I have a more official answer -- I don't want to say one thing and then discover that James or Bill would say another.
ChronosCrow
06-11-04, 12:45 PM Oh blast, he's off the boards right now? "This feat expands the way you can use the Search skill by allowing you to noctice and alanlyze available clues in a specific area." The following tasks are added as possible searches: find a clue 10 which is modified by how much the site has been distrubed since the crime, make a dc 15 search check to analyze a clue and this i modified by the time that has elasped since then. Analyze eaxample: a brooch clutech in the hand of a murdered dwarf reveals that it was torn from a blue cloack or tunic.

Research: "This feat expands the way you use Knowledge skills. It allows you to use Knolwedge skill to navigate a library an office filing system, a chirnicler's repostiory, or a church's stroage cell in order to discover information. How good the library is modifies the roll. "The higher the check reult, the better and more detailed the information (revelaed)."

I hope this information is good enough for discussion on it.
ChronosCrow
06-11-04, 12:47 PM oh, ha, yay he's gonna answer eventually. Plus it looks like i'm the first to figure out that they didn't add anything for the math at the end of those creation feats, I feel sorta nifty, but really only in role-playing geeky sorta way. Oh well.
Michael Tree
06-11-04, 10:18 PM For the first one, making them -25%, -50%, -75% is most consistent with the way stacking works in D&D. When x2 is x2'd a second time, the result is x3 not x4.

Though I would house-rule that the costs can't be decresed below 25%.
N'wah
06-11-04, 10:23 PM Though I haven't seen the book, it's easy to assume that each time you take the feat, it applies to a different cost (i.e., 1st time you take it, you apply it to experience, 2nd time you apply it to materials cost, etc.), but that's my opinion.
unoriginaljediSN
06-11-04, 10:31 PM Well there sre footnotes next to exceptional artisna, extaordinary artisan, and legendary artisan on page 49, however, in the descriptions of those feats on page 52,53, and 56 there is no statement that the feats can be taken multiple times. My guess is that the footnote on page 49 was a typo :( .
ChronosCrow
06-12-04, 04:17 AM Originally posted by ChronosCrow
I'll venture a guess that's it the second option since it'd be kinda odd if magical items didn't cost any gp.

Um, yeah that's what I already figured N'wah

I doubt the footnotes are typos. If you take a look at 48 and 49 there are no other feats that have that designated footnote next to them. That's a little to logical and rational to be a typo.

Though I don't understand fully your first portion Michale I can completly understand your house rule and may probably use it too.
Anax
06-12-04, 11:00 AM I am inclined to believe that the error is the table saying they are stackable, too. Perhaps at one point you had to take the feat once for each crafting feat?

Regardless, there's no way I would allow these feats to apply more than once.
ChronosCrow
06-14-04, 09:28 AM Anything new yet on this Hellcow?
Josh Wilhoyte
06-14-04, 09:42 AM Well, he WAS off the boards for a while:D .

As to your other questions, I'd use the Track feat as an example. I believe without Track you can still find tracks with either Search or Survival, but you cannot follow them. Alternately, use Trapfinding as an example, without it one can only find traps of up to DC 20. I'd use the same skill checks, but up the difficulty by 5, and you can't find any Clue or Information with a DC higher than 20. No taking 20 either.
ChronosCrow
06-14-04, 10:44 AM HHHmmm good idea, I might incure a penalty of -4 too. A few things do that where if your not profient there you get a -4 penalty so I think that might be justified. But your up to 20 thing is well inspired.
Hellcow
06-14-04, 12:56 PM 1. The footnotes are in error. You are not supposed to be able to purchase the feat multiple times.

2. I have an answer from Bill Slaviscek, but don't have it on hand (I'm traveling again). I'll respond to this within the day.
ChronosCrow
06-14-04, 01:02 PM Originally posted by Hellcow
1. The footnotes are in error. You are not supposed to be able to purchase the feat multiple times.

2. I have an answer from Bill Slaviscek, but don't have it on hand (I'm traveling again). I'll respond to this within the day.

1. Yeah it would be pretty dang strange to stack them I suppose. It just seemed like such a logical looking error with the placements.

2. i'll be waiting, thanks for doing that.
Hellcow
06-14-04, 01:08 PM 2. According to Bill Slaviscek, who designed these two feats (and developed D20 Modern): "To use the skills in the specialized ways outlined here, you need to have the appropriate feat. That doesn't mean that your character can't muddle through tomes in a library or figure something out at a crime scene, but he or she can't do it with the competence and expertise provided by the training granted by the feat."

In a sense, you're talking about the difference between a trained crime scene investigator and an untrained but observant person; the idea of the clue is part noticing the detail and part being able to recognize its importance. I could see Josh's idea of allowing an "untrained" check against low DC clues; the example of a character without Track being able to spot tracks but not follow them effectively is a good one. The character with Investigate is supposed to possess a specialized skill that goes beyond simple search; most trapfinders will have extremely high Search skills, but that doesn't make them master inquisitives. So use your own judgment, but make sure that you don't invalidate Investigate in the process.

And I'm afraid you shouldn't rely on me for speedy answers. I will try to be on the boards as often as I can, but I'm dealing with a lot of stuff at the moment! ;)
ChronosCrow
06-14-04, 01:23 PM Originally posted by Hellcow

And I'm afraid you shouldn't rely on me for speedy answers. I will try to be on the boards as often as I can, but I'm dealing with a lot of stuff at the moment! ;)

No no, i'm happy that I got my questions answered at all. I think it's great you're getting on the boards and putting in an effort to clear things up on issues. I love it infact. Luckily for me my game is just starting up this Friday so nothing hazardous to the game happened.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ChronosCrow 06-11-04, 06:04 AM	Hey man, first off props on the book, way to go. 1. There are 3 very nice Item creation feats that take off 25% of either gp, xp, or time when crafting an item. A footnote says multiples of one feat can stack. However there is no clarification in what order you do the math. Is it if you have 4 feats in Extraordinary Artisan then are magic items 100% off? Or is it that you take 25% off each time so that it's 25% off the first price then 25% off the new second price and so on? I'll venture a guess that's it the second option since it'd be kinda odd if magical items didn't cost any gp. 2. There are 2 feats that add to skills the basic set of rules that d20 Modern covers over those skills. A. Research and B. Invesitigation. The question is if the party wanted to do such things, but no PC had the avaliable feats what could at least be done to gain a similar, but ofcourse less effective means to and end? A. Gather Information and Search checks in libraries? B. Search checks? Thank you for your time.
Josh Wilhoyte 06-11-04, 09:28 AM	What do Research and Investigation grant you, and what do they require to use? Maybe we can figure it out for you if Hellcow is still off the boards a fair amount.
Hellcow 06-11-04, 12:37 PM	I'll get back to you once I have a more official answer -- I don't want to say one thing and then discover that James or Bill would say another.
ChronosCrow 06-11-04, 12:45 PM	Oh blast, he's off the boards right now? "This feat expands the way you can use the Search skill by allowing you to noctice and alanlyze available clues in a specific area." The following tasks are added as possible searches: find a clue 10 which is modified by how much the site has been distrubed since the crime, make a dc 15 search check to analyze a clue and this i modified by the time that has elasped since then. Analyze eaxample: a brooch clutech in the hand of a murdered dwarf reveals that it was torn from a blue cloack or tunic. Research: "This feat expands the way you use Knowledge skills. It allows you to use Knolwedge skill to navigate a library an office filing system, a chirnicler's repostiory, or a church's stroage cell in order to discover information. How good the library is modifies the roll. "The higher the check reult, the better and more detailed the information (revelaed)." I hope this information is good enough for discussion on it.
ChronosCrow 06-11-04, 12:47 PM	oh, ha, yay he's gonna answer eventually. Plus it looks like i'm the first to figure out that they didn't add anything for the math at the end of those creation feats, I feel sorta nifty, but really only in role-playing geeky sorta way. Oh well.
Michael Tree 06-11-04, 10:18 PM	For the first one, making them -25%, -50%, -75% is most consistent with the way stacking works in D&D. When x2 is x2'd a second time, the result is x3 not x4. Though I would house-rule that the costs can't be decresed below 25%.
N'wah 06-11-04, 10:23 PM	Though I haven't seen the book, it's easy to assume that each time you take the feat, it applies to a different cost (i.e., 1st time you take it, you apply it to experience, 2nd time you apply it to materials cost, etc.), but that's my opinion.
unoriginaljediSN 06-11-04, 10:31 PM	Well there sre footnotes next to exceptional artisna, extaordinary artisan, and legendary artisan on page 49, however, in the descriptions of those feats on page 52,53, and 56 there is no statement that the feats can be taken multiple times. My guess is that the footnote on page 49 was a typo :( .
ChronosCrow 06-12-04, 04:17 AM	Originally posted by ChronosCrow I'll venture a guess that's it the second option since it'd be kinda odd if magical items didn't cost any gp. Um, yeah that's what I already figured N'wah I doubt the footnotes are typos. If you take a look at 48 and 49 there are no other feats that have that designated footnote next to them. That's a little to logical and rational to be a typo. Though I don't understand fully your first portion Michale I can completly understand your house rule and may probably use it too.
Anax 06-12-04, 11:00 AM	I am inclined to believe that the error is the table saying they are stackable, too. Perhaps at one point you had to take the feat once for each crafting feat? Regardless, there's no way I would allow these feats to apply more than once.
ChronosCrow 06-14-04, 09:28 AM	Anything new yet on this Hellcow?
Josh Wilhoyte 06-14-04, 09:42 AM	Well, he WAS off the boards for a while:D . As to your other questions, I'd use the Track feat as an example. I believe without Track you can still find tracks with either Search or Survival, but you cannot follow them. Alternately, use Trapfinding as an example, without it one can only find traps of up to DC 20. I'd use the same skill checks, but up the difficulty by 5, and you can't find any Clue or Information with a DC higher than 20. No taking 20 either.
ChronosCrow 06-14-04, 10:44 AM	HHHmmm good idea, I might incure a penalty of -4 too. A few things do that where if your not profient there you get a -4 penalty so I think that might be justified. But your up to 20 thing is well inspired.
Hellcow 06-14-04, 12:56 PM	1. The footnotes are in error. You are not supposed to be able to purchase the feat multiple times. 2. I have an answer from Bill Slaviscek, but don't have it on hand (I'm traveling again). I'll respond to this within the day.
ChronosCrow 06-14-04, 01:02 PM	Originally posted by Hellcow 1. The footnotes are in error. You are not supposed to be able to purchase the feat multiple times. 2. I have an answer from Bill Slaviscek, but don't have it on hand (I'm traveling again). I'll respond to this within the day. 1. Yeah it would be pretty dang strange to stack them I suppose. It just seemed like such a logical looking error with the placements. 2. i'll be waiting, thanks for doing that.
Hellcow 06-14-04, 01:08 PM	2. According to Bill Slaviscek, who designed these two feats (and developed D20 Modern): "To use the skills in the specialized ways outlined here, you need to have the appropriate feat. That doesn't mean that your character can't muddle through tomes in a library or figure something out at a crime scene, but he or she can't do it with the competence and expertise provided by the training granted by the feat." In a sense, you're talking about the difference between a trained crime scene investigator and an untrained but observant person; the idea of the clue is part noticing the detail and part being able to recognize its importance. I could see Josh's idea of allowing an "untrained" check against low DC clues; the example of a character without Track being able to spot tracks but not follow them effectively is a good one. The character with Investigate is supposed to possess a specialized skill that goes beyond simple search; most trapfinders will have extremely high Search skills, but that doesn't make them master inquisitives. So use your own judgment, but make sure that you don't invalidate Investigate in the process. And I'm afraid you shouldn't rely on me for speedy answers. I will try to be on the boards as often as I can, but I'm dealing with a lot of stuff at the moment! ;)
ChronosCrow 06-14-04, 01:23 PM	Originally posted by Hellcow And I'm afraid you shouldn't rely on me for speedy answers. I will try to be on the boards as often as I can, but I'm dealing with a lot of stuff at the moment! ;) No no, i'm happy that I got my questions answered at all. I think it's great you're getting on the boards and putting in an effort to clear things up on issues. I love it infact. Luckily for me my game is just starting up this Friday so nothing hazardous to the game happened.