Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Setherial 09-23-05, 05:17 AM	Hey guys This is probably been done before and if so just direct me to the post in question. Anyway I've thought about this for quite a while now and as an experiment I want to create an entire party myself and afterwards have my players select a character from the ones available and have them play it rather then allowing them to come up with their own character as usual. The idea is to have a more balanced single minded set of characters that have a reason for being together and a rich background that is both fun to play and has potential for later adventures. So before working out each character individually I want to come up with a list of 4 to 6 characters that make a good team. I would like the input of those who played the forgotten forge through grasp of the emerald claw series about where to spend skill points, the combination of classes, feats, etc... Ok a first try (all level 1) : - A LG Warforged Fighter (classic :) - A N Changeling Bard - A LG Human Artificer - ... fourth character is hard, maybe a CG Dwarf Cleric for healing ??? 2 additional character for a party of 6 - A CG Kalashtar Psion (telepath maybe or a soulknife) - A N Changeling Rogue ok tell me what you think and propose adjustments. This is the procedure I'd like to follow to create this group with your help: 1) create the party as a whole, choose character classes 2) spend skillpoints, feats, Ability scores for each character 3) background story of the party, why are they together, what have they been trough together and what is their link to the others. 4) individual backgrounds. all help is appreciated ! thanks Seth
Tek 09-23-05, 05:28 AM	I've done alot of character creating in the past week, so I'm not all that up to creating a whole party and fleshing out a background, so I'll comment on what you've got. The 6 player party has a changeling bard and a changeling rogue. Overlapping skills, and race majorally. I would change one, most likely the bard. I would go: Warforged Fighter Changeling Rogue Shifter Cleric (of Balinor) Human Wizard Obviously, the races can be changed around, but I'd do something like that. Melee power, skills, healing, and arcane magic. For the 6 player party, I would add: Kalashtar Psion Half-Orc Ranger Adds more spellpower and more melee power while breaking up some wilderness skills. Good luck! edit: After I sleep on it, depending what I'm doing tommorow, I might make this party up. I'll see.
Setherial 09-23-05, 05:45 AM	hmmm... I would like to include a bard as we never really use bards. Also I don't want the party to have one awesome overpowered thank who makes the attacks of the others (for instance a soulknife) seen rediculous. I'd rather lower encounters and have characters balanced out towards low dealing damage. that said I agree with a taking a class that has Survival as a skill (the ranger), I guess it is too valuable not to have in places like Xen'drik. About the arcane power, we never tried the artificer class yet but it seems valuable to have with a warforged in the party. Also is a wizard really needed with an artificer in the group or are they in fact very different ? A last note, lets stick to step 1 of the procedure (selecting 6 balanced classes) before working them out. Question: who was the guy who made the great 'Crucible' background, I can't find the post anymore and I need im in here :)
Tek 09-23-05, 05:57 AM	Hmm, true enough points. You could swap out the wizard for an artificer, but they're completely different classes. Wizards CAST spells, artificers... well.. they make magic items, and they imbue items with magical power. Big difference. They can't just cast fireball without first creating a wand or something that casts fireball. In combat, they aren't the best - they're more helpful if they buff you before combat. As for the 'super melee power,' I never said anything about that. I merely created a balanced party. One melee, one skills, one divine, and one arcane. That's usually how it goes for balanced parties. If you want a bard, you can switch out the rogue for the bard, but I wouldn't include them both. They get similar skill sets, apart from the rogue being more roguey and the bard being more bardy. I suggested rogue because if my DM came into the game with premade sheets and I got stuck with a bard and he didn't allow me to be a rogue instead, well, I wouldn't have that much fun. However, with an artificer, traps are covered a bit, as he gets disable device as a class skill, so he can sub in for a rogue, perhaps. It's a difficult call, but I would do something with the following: 1 melee. 1 skills. 1 divine. 1 arcane. Then for the bonus 2: 1 melee or ranged 1 psion
Setherial 09-23-05, 07:02 AM	As for the 'super melee power,' I never said anything about that. I merely created a balanced party. One melee, one skills, one divine, and one arcane. That's usually how it goes for balanced parties. O sorry, it was not meant towards your proposal but rather something we have been stuck with for a while now and something I want to prevent :) Ok here goes what we have : 1 melee: Warforged Fighter (I want Crucible for this if I can borrow him and find the guy who wrote him) 1 skills: I'm going with the Rogue Changeling as you suggested 1 divine: Shifter Cleric (why not, the shifter is a nice touch) 1 arcane: I dunno, I want an Artificer so I'll stick to that, maybe I'll have to get really generous with wands as a DM to make up for the lack of offensive power. Then for the bonus 2: 1 melee or ranged: Ranger, maybe an Elf although I like to avoid elves in eberron and use then as exotic and misterious. A shifter would be good, or a warforged Scout maybe (longshot + 2 warforged is kinda odd) ?? 1 psion: Kalashtar Telepath I'm still afraid of using Kalashtar as character class since the players haven't discovered the race yet, they should get to know them in game before playing them, what do you think ?
Eronthar 09-23-05, 07:04 AM	An idea for Bard and Rogue; let the rogue take physical skills, much like PrC Acrobat Thief, and bard on social skills. Bards' first role in the group is backing up others. I like to play bard and if there's rogue in the party i try to became backup healer or fighter. If there's no rogue in the party i pick rogue simply, 'cause if you put bard in the rogue's place he must spend his precious skill points (which is lower than the rogue) on open lock, disable trap or other athletic talents. And your party is up to 6 person, he'll cover a good place i guess. So don't touch the bard. ;) PS: Artificers can disable traps and open locks. If you'll put an artificer in group he and bard can take rogue's place.
Rake 09-23-05, 07:07 AM	As for that empty slot - between psion, artificer, and bard, it looks like your healing is covered. For a flavorful PC (with ranks in survival) how about a halfling barbarian of the dinosaur riding variety?
NathanD 09-23-05, 07:41 AM	If you plan on an Artificer in the group, supply plenty of gold, and plan on flexible down time for him to make scrolls and potions at lower levels, and wondrous items and wands at higher levels. You may want to look at this thread for some ideas for him. http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=373293 He can be extremely flexible, given time and gold, but do not expect him to have the same firepower as a wizard.
Setherial 09-23-05, 08:01 AM	Eronthar: Yes I too see a big difference between the rogue and the bard, the Bard being the diplomat of the party (charisma based skills) and the rogue well for all sneaky stuff. Having both a rogue and a bard though does take a spot away from either a good melee guy or a powerfull offensive caster. Then again, maybe for the Eberron adventures offensive power is not always priority ?? Rake : I'm intrigued but not yet comfortable with the idea of hafling barbarians. A barbarian should excel in brute force where the hafling is the opposite, he is weak. It feels like a kobolt barbarian :) Also I still have to get used to the dinosaur riding thing. Would you give a powerfull dino to a first level character ? And if so isn't this unbalanced ? Another question, where do you park a dino ?? in the stable with the poor horsies of the others :) About the cleric, I like this class not only for healing but for its flexebility. You can go from melee tank war priest to dark necromencer. A cleric is always a good backup in melee, he can buff and he can tend the wounded, a very important man I would say! Ofcourse you might be right that the combination of others can replace him and offer more flexebility as a whole. Propose your party !! NathanD: thanks I'll check it out. Another thought: what about a Druid with some tracking skills instead of the ranger. Let the bard/rogue be the ranged guy and with a druid in the party you have tracking, healing, some powerfull magic and morphing at higher levels and the animal companion as melee backup. I love druids :) Ofcourse the story behind why a druid leaves his forest is more difficult!
Eronthar 09-23-05, 08:30 AM	Yes I love druids, too. I don't know where your party'll start the game. There're Gatekeepers in Sharn. And again with gate keepers (IMO they are the best in groups of druids), your druid can leave his woods to track down abberations. Or maybe give druid a some kind of relationship with one of your players, a sister or close relative. That's my trick to keep druids in the city based adventures.
Mr. Wilson 09-23-05, 08:38 AM	Fighter or Barbarian Wizard or Sorc Rogue or Bard Cleric extras: Druid Barbarian/Figther or Bard Bards are really the jack of all trades. They can do a little bit of everything, providing extra healing and if they take weapon finesse, they have a decent chance of hitting thanks to a typically high dex score (as a matter of fact, the bard I play has the best to hit chance of the party, though he took a level of fighter). Barbarians are great offensive melee characters, the debate over Barbarian or Fighter can go either way, but for pure carnage, I'll take the Barbarian. Druid's can wildshape, which can have sick results. I lean towards disliking Artificers, but I haven't played one yet so I'll withhold judgement until I play one.
Setherial 09-23-05, 08:52 AM	Fighter or Barbarian Wizard or Sorc Rogue or Bard Cleric extras: Druid Barbarian/Figther or Bard Too classic, the entire point of pregenerating a party is to force them into something different. As for where the party starts I was thinking outside on the road to Sharn (where they start the series of Eberron adventures beginning with the forgotten forge). ok new proposal : 1 Warforged Paladin 2 Half-Orc Ranger 3 Human Artificer 4 Changeling Rogue 5 Human or maybe Shifter Druid (will a shifter druid suffer much from his cha penalty ?) 6 Psion Kalashtar (Telepath)
Twinblades 09-23-05, 11:57 AM	I'm still afraid of using Kalashtar as character class since the players haven't discovered the race yet, they should get to know them in game before playing them, what do you think ? Take the player who gets the Psion aside and let them know they're playing a Kalashtar, but disguised as a human as they don't want the rest of the party to know. If the Psion does anything suspicious give the other PCs spot checks to see if they pick up on it. The Psion would be travelling incognito to avoid the attention of the Dreaming Dark, which gives you a ready route to introduce them as a faction/opposition later in the campaign. From personal experience of a party with no divine magic and an artificer at low levels, make sure you're generous with the potions/scrolls of CLW! It's not fair on the artificer if they have to blow their entire craft reserve on producing healing items to keep the non-warforged PCs alive.
Setherial 09-23-05, 03:09 PM	Take the player who gets the Psion aside and let them know they're playing a Kalashtar, but disguised as a human as they don't want the rest of the party to know. If the Psion does anything suspicious give the other PCs spot checks to see if they pick up on it. The Psion would be travelling incognito to avoid the attention of the Dreaming Dark, which gives you a ready route to introduce them as a faction/opposition later in the campaign. I like it ! thanks :)
Tek 09-23-05, 04:16 PM	I'd switch your druid and ranger races around. Make it a human or shifter ranger, and then a half-orc druid. Why? Gatekeepers, rock! Read about them in the ECS.
Ravenfeather 09-23-05, 04:35 PM	Are you sure that your folks will accept that? I know I would for a one shot adventure or on a con... but a whole campaign with a DMs character... Firstly I like to live my own dreams and secondly I don't need the DM to tell me how the char should be played. Let's put it like this. I just wouldn't play in such a campaign. A different approach is that you ask your players to come up with three totally different concepts each. They don't need to be worked out in game terms. Then you have them sit together, discuss the best party, and play an intro adventure without rules.
calms the shadows 09-23-05, 04:58 PM	Ok I've had two parties running around in my head for sometime now. First your typical 4 member adventuring team. Half-Ork fighter, eventually picking up Marshall and Tactical Soldier. Trained in Dargune, prefers a flail and shield, incredibly protective of his little sister, but beyond that, easily manipulated by the more inteligent types. Thats where his sister comes in handy. Half-Elf Rogue, The fighters half sister, though raised in Darguun, she ran away to Sharn, looking for a better (read: more urban) life. Recruited by a Elven Cleric Of the Host to participate in a great adventure. when her brother finds her, (having left his station in Darguun to do so) He gets sucked in as well. She'd pick up Thief-Acrobat, or maybe Master Inquisative, depending on the way the campagn goes. Dwarven Wizard, probably picking up Loremaster, scion of a powerfu Mror Holds family, he was sent away when it was discovered that he hasd an Aberrant dragonmark. Exiled to Morgrave University, he was the first to meet and deal with the party's driving force . . . a Changeling Cleric of the Traveler, whos trying to both give these three people exactly what they need ("the gifts of the Traveler") but gain entrance into the Cabinet of Faces as well. If he pulls this off , his entrance is assured. If not, well whatever the adventure is he speaks of, it will claim them all. . . Ill post the other party of 6 later . . . .whacha think?
DragonWatcher 09-23-05, 05:09 PM	My current group of PCs: Warforged Fighter - Classic sure, but not really an interesting character. Orc Gatekeeper Druid - This druid dishes out as much damage as the fighter, and is really bringing a lot of RP potential to the story. Dwarf Artificier - This particular character is inept in combat, but really good in social situations. Valenar Elf Scout (from Complete Adventurer) - Again, this character has a lot of Eberron feel. The Valenar elves are so different than the typical D&D tree-hugging elves that it really gives the player some new challenges. Changeling Sorcerer - Thus far he's hidden the fact that he's a changeling from the party. An interesting character and good at social interactions. He's a good alternative to the bard. Kalashtar Soulknife - A pretty good warrior who can never be disarmed (under normal circumstances). He's working with the group to track an Inspired. None of the group know his true intentions, and his story hasn't really come into play yet. If you use Kalashtar at all, just keep in mind that their entire society is Lawfully aligned, not chaotic. Of course an individual character can be aligned any way that works for your game, but in general they're really Lawful. Also, so far I'm not really impressed with the Artificer class. The group hasn't really had a ton of time to spend making magic items (which as the DM is really my fault), but without making things, the artificer is really weak. However, with enough downtime they could get really nasty too. So take the style of game that you plan on running into account when you think of the characters that you want in your party.
icedrake 09-23-05, 05:30 PM	Also, so far I'm not really impressed with the Artificer class. The group hasn't really had a ton of time to spend making magic items (which as the DM is really my fault), but without making things, the artificer is really weak. However, with enough downtime they could get really nasty too. So take the style of game that you plan on running into account when you think of the characters that you want in your party. I think characters can easily have more down time than you think. With all the traveling pcs do, they've got a few days or maybe weeks to spend simply traveling from place to place on the Lighting Rail, elemant galleon or an airship.
Setherial 09-24-05, 05:35 AM	Are you sure that your folks will accept that? I know I would for a one shot adventure or on a con... but a whole campaign with a DMs character... Firstly I like to live my own dreams and secondly I don't need the DM to tell me how the char should be played. Let's put it like this. I just wouldn't play in such a campaign. A different approach is that you ask your players to come up with three totally different concepts each. They don't need to be worked out in game terms. Then you have them sit together, discuss the best party, and play an intro adventure without rules. They'll be able to pick a character from the group which should offer veriaty and I'll give them room to make changes. Also not everyone in my group enjoys creating their own character, they just play and that's it. If someone is really unhappy ofcourse I'll arrange a lil accident so another character can be introduced ;) I already know who will be wanting to play which character almost for certain and as they are first level characters there will be much room to build on them. I don't expect to see any problems from my group. ok current advice taken into account, here is my party again : 1 Warforged Paladin of the Flame 2 Shifter Ranger 3 Human Artificer 4 Changeling Rogue 5 Half-Orc or Orc Druid Gatekeeper 6 Psion Kalashtar (Telepath) pretending to be human I think we're close to ready to start working these out (step 2). If you want a shot at one of these (or you can still introduce a new character) keep to this small stat block format : Name: Maul Male personality Warforged Paladin lvl 1 hp: 12; AC: 21 (Adamantine Body +8, Dex +1, Heavy Shield +2); Base Attack: +4 melee, +2 ranged; +4 (1d4+4, Slam); +2 (1d10, Crossbow, heavy); +4 (1d8+3, Longsword); Alignment: LG; Saves: Fort +4, Ref +1, Will -1; Abilities: STR 17, DEX 12, CON 14, INT 8, WIS 8, CHA 15. Skills: Diplomacy +5, Handle Animal +4, Ride +4. Feats: Adamantine Body Dragonmarks: / Origin: Cyre Comments: maybe a short description of where you would take this character, which future feats, skills, direction to steer him.
Rake 09-24-05, 07:24 AM	Actually, the default halfling dino mount (the fastieth) is certianly no better than a light horse (and inferior by far to a light warhorse), and aside from the -2 Str, halflings make serviceable fighters and are definately a better choice for barbarians than kobolds (or gnomes or goblins). As Talenta halflings gain automatic proficiency with the Talenta boomerang and your attack bonus with such a weapon (or with even a javelin) will be very high... +2 Dex, +1 size bonus, +1 thrown weapon bonus... your ranged combat ability will be better than most warriors (Rage-y Str bonuses apply to thrown weapons, remember). Also, take a look at the Talenta Tangat and tell me again if the halflings are weak? ;)
Setherial 09-24-05, 08:02 AM	Actually, the default halfling dino mount (the fastieth) is certianly no better than a light horse (and inferior by far to a light warhorse), and aside from the -2 Str, halflings make serviceable fighters and are definately a better choice for barbarians than kobolds (or gnomes or goblins). As Talenta halflings gain automatic proficiency with the Talenta boomerang and your attack bonus with such a weapon (or with even a javelin) will be very high... +2 Dex, +1 size bonus, +1 thrown weapon bonus... your ranged combat ability will be better than most warriors (Rage-y Str bonuses apply to thrown weapons, remember). Also, take a look at the Talenta Tangat and tell me again if the halflings are weak? ;) Ok you've got me interested :) can you create a first level Dino Riding Halfling Barbarian with some advice on tactics and future development ? I'd like to see where you take this !
Rake 09-24-05, 10:33 PM	Well, first you'd take Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Talenta Tangat), then you'd pick up Mounted Combat at level 3 and switch to a Clawfoot as soon as you can afford one. (You could even apply the Warbeast template from the MMII.) At 1'st level, assuming you have armor witha +4 bonus, a 12 Str, at least 16 Dex, and 14 Con... HP 14 AC 18 Init +3 Speed 30ft (higher when mounted) Attack (melee) +3 Attack (ranged) +6 (!) And that's without raging. AC could easily go higher with a MW buckler and/or a higher Dex score. Attack bonuses increase with MW weapons. Hell, you could even take ranged feats and take the barbarian in a whole new direction... picture a screaming, painted-up halfling warrior angrily chucking javelins while raging for considerable damage while offsetting the defensive penalties of the barbarian's rage by remaining a safe distance away (mounted on a speedy little dino so as to keep manuverability options even higher). Take powerful charge for when melee becomes necessary and really put that speed to good use... For THAT matter, it'd be easier by far to come by a truly low-level -flying- mount in the Talenta plains than almost anywhere else, and you could REALLY put that 'raining javelin-y death' technique to good use with one of those babies. Forego the tangat altogether and take Monkey Grip so as to use bigger javelins (plus rage Str bonus) and watch the damage scale up to very un-halfling-like seriousness while remaining oh-so-out-of-reach. Keep a javelin o' lighting or two handy for emergencies, too. :D Oh, and the Mark of Healing is a good way to circumvent the nasty habit that barbarians have of dying after a rage ends due to the Con loss. (Though you'd want to check with your DM to make sure that he'll allow you to activate a dragonmark during a rage before you considered this option).