Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Sereno 06-09-06, 01:26 PM	My players are currently part way through the (excellent) "Murder In Oakbridge" module from Dungeon magazine, and doing very well. I've also introduced them to Victor Saint-Demain from the (also excellent) "Chimes at Midnight" adventure which they will be getting involved in, next, along with a couple of my own adventure plots. I like running multiple shorter plots at the same time, than a single long story arc; it gives me even more hooks to use, and IMO creates a more complex and "deeper" Eberron. The first victims in "Murder in Oakbridge" was an art dealer. To add a little more complexity, and to give me a future hook, I added a secret vault in his office and a "special" painting hidden away. The PCs found it, and are keeping it, until they decide if it's got anything to do with his murder. It doesn't, but they aren't sure, yet. I've got the beginnings of an idea what to do with the painting, but I thought I'd ask for some ideas from the group. Here's the idea: The painting is of a gold dragon ... with the gold paint made from the ground scale of an actual gold dragon ... actually painted by the owner of the scale. Others of this sort of painting exist. The PCs have learned the first two facts, but not the second two ... yet. Another dragon, a member of The Chamber, believes that if he collects one painting from each of the types of dragonkind (both chromatic and metallic), it will enable him to learn something important about The Prophesy. He's LE and willing to do anything to get his hands on the paintings he needs. So far, he doesn't know about the PC's painting ... but he soon will, and he will want it, and he will lead a ruthless hunt for it. Here's where I'm coming up (mostly) blank ... what is he going to do with the paintings? Power an eldritch machine comes to mind ... but what would it do? Why would the PCs care (other than if he's hurt them, or their friends, to get it)? How could finding out something about The Prophesy do harm to Sharn, or the world in general? My players are very good, and they are likely to go after the dragon simply because of his method of obtaining the painting ... but, I'd like their going after him to have more meaning for them. It can start as revenge, but along the way I'd like to have them discover that they're really involved in something bigger. That seems quite Eberronian, to me. :) Ideas? Comments? Suggestions? All are welcome....
Kreistor1 06-09-06, 02:10 PM	Doh.. I started on this and then Closed the window without posting. Starting over, ugh... The eldritch machine could be protected by traps keyed to the "DNA" of its creators. The shavings don't power the machine, just provide access. They could be "Get out of death" cards. The dragons were headed for an attack on the giants of Xen'drik, knew it was going to be rough, and so planted these paintings and a rumour about them being a key to powerful knowledge so that some unsuspecting sap would collect them and Wish the attackers back to life. There's not a lot to work with there. I think you need to step it back and not have the contents of the paintings being important, but just keys to other things.
Sereno 06-09-06, 03:12 PM	There's not a lot to work with there. I think you need to step it back and not have the contents of the paintings being important, but just keys to other things. Well, the contents of the paintings themselves aren't supposed to be important. Maybe they never were and the dragon only believes it to be true ... who's going to argue with a dragon? What I'm really looking for is some ideas for what the dragon could be doing. What aspect of manipulating the Prophesy (which is what the Chamber is all about) could be a dangerous thing, above and beyond being ruthless and killing to get the paintings? Something like this, but this seems too big for my players. The dragon believes that for some important part of the Prophesy to come to light he needs to purge Khyber of the fiends so Khyber can heal and become a real (progenitor) dragon again. The eldritch machine is going to turn all of Sharn into a great gaping hole into Khyber so the fiends can be let, like lancing an infection. Or, like you suggest, the eldritch machine will resurrect those dragons (who subsequently died in the war with the Giants, or the Elves and House Vol) and they'll immediately want to resume the war ... even though it's been over for centuries. The fact that they manipulated the Prophesy to get the current dragon into it adds even another layer of intrigue and I'm liking it. It also could leave room for another Chamber dragon who wants to stop the first dragon because he doesn't think the Prophesy means what the "bad" dragons thinks it means. But, I don't want the "good" NPC dragon to overshadow the PCs ... or help them too much ... and certainly not save-the-day at the end of the adventure.... Remember, not only do we as players of Eberron DnD have no idea what the Prophesy *really* is, but not even the dragons agree on it. Heck, probably two members of the Chamber wouldn't agree on it! :) I'm really looking forward to bringing dragons into my campaign, but certainly NOT as big stupid lizards sitting on a pile of gold in a mountain.... :) Eberron seems like the perfect place to really use dragons as they "should" be as brilliant and complex opponents with depth and personality.
Kalanth 06-09-06, 03:28 PM	I just fired up something related to the prophecy in my campaign. The players managed to snatch a near extinct plant that a dragon wanted because of its link to the prophecy. What I did, in relation to the prophecy, is to not fill in that detail. There is no need for the players to ever discover that meaning. Define it as something much to difficult to be understood by them. Really, there is no reason to define it. And in such, there does not have to be a rhyme or reason to the paintings. Heck, the dragon may not even understand their signifigance at all. Only the idea that the paintings might have something to do with, or in fact do have something to do with the prophecy. If they, in fact, do connect to something you could make it as complex or simple as you want. Maybe when all the paintings are gathered in a certain area, and placed in a specific pattern, it will bring a zone to a contamerous position. Maybe the paintings are only a key to a new way of making paint that can be reproduced with arcane powers. One is epic, the other is a big let down for the dragon. Neither is wrong. And your dragon, yeah, I know he is evil but man it would be such a switch if he was a metallic dragon. A LE Gold dragon, for example, is a nice twist that Eberron opens us right up to. And then you add in that he is doing bad things with good intentions, and you have yourself a heck of a moral bit in the game.
Sereno 06-09-06, 03:51 PM	And your dragon, yeah, I know he is evil but man it would be such a switch if he was a metallic dragon. A LE Gold dragon, for example, is a nice twist that Eberron opens us right up to. And then you add in that he is doing bad things with good intentions, and you have yourself a heck of a moral bit in the game. Of course, everyone who knows about Eberron will be expecting it to be an evil metallic. :) That's why it's going to be an evil metallic who goes about disguised as an evil chromatic! Heh, heh. :) But, I AM looking for something significant to be the ultimate result of the dragon's efforts ... at least HE should believe that there's going to be a big result. If the outcome is really just a new way to make cool paint, I think my players would feel let down, "We went through all this just to stop him from making PAINT?!?" :) Also, I'm looking for something big ... but not so big that "everything is screwed" if they should fail. Success should never be a given in Eberron, but failure shouldn't mean the end of the world (if you want to hav a fun game, that is ... a fun game for everyone).
Kalanth 06-09-06, 04:02 PM	Something big, not always easy to come up with. I would personally love the element of dejection when they realize that all their efforts were to stop something so pathetic. :) As I said, though, big can be difficult. There is the possibility that in the paintings the dragon could reveal a second War of the Mark, or discover that a new mark may soon appear amongst the (chooses race randomly) Trolls of Eberron. It's big, but it does not have to destroy the world or possibly end a civilization. Maybe the paintings will reveal the secret location of one of the artifacts from the Age of Demons, giving the dragon something to place him higher in the power curve. And in that, he may believe that the paintings revealing the location was part of the prophecy, thereby meaning the artifcat was a part of the prophecy. You really want to play with those players, though, make it so as they go about trying to foil his plans they realize that the paintings point to one of them. Making the player themself a part of the prophecy in this dragons eyes.
Kreistor1 06-09-06, 04:52 PM	Ah, so you need me to think large scale. Gotcha. I thought you wanted this to be a side thing. Alright, give me the weekend. I should be able to grow this out into something more complete.
DoveArrow 06-09-06, 07:07 PM	Here's a page out of the DaVinci Code: Legend has it that long ago, an ancient gold wyrm named Darshalano discovered a section of the Draconic Prophecy that could provide the answers to why the prophecy was created in the first place. However, according to the legend, the secret of the prophecy is too powerful for the world to know yet, and can only be revealed on a particular date some time far in the future. Darshalano took his notes on the prophecy and transcribed them onto gold tablets. The tablets were then hidden in a secret location. To ensure that the location of the gold tablets was passed on, Darshalano created a secret organization who would pass on this knowledge from generation to generation. In the event that the members of the organization were somehow unable to pass on this knowledge, Darshalano also created paintings with cryptic clues that would reveal the precise location of the gold tablets. These paintings were then enchanted with the powers of the Prophecy to find their ways into the hands of those worthy of passing on the secret. This is where the evil dragon comes in. For thousands of years, he has been trying to locate the members of this organization in order to discover the location of the gold tablets, before eliminating them. It is this dragon's hope that with the knowledge contained within the tablets he will become the most powerful being in Eberron. Unfortunately for him, the dragons protecting the location of the gold tablets have all given him a false lead. Meanwhile, the paintings revealing the true location were recovered by a group of adventurers traveling into Argonessen for riches and brought back to Khorvaire. Now, for whatever reason, the paintings have fallen into the hands of the PCs. Will they be able to find the location of the gold tablets before the evil dragon finds them? Find out in the next exciting installment of your campaign! By the way, a cookie to the first person who can figure out what famous dragon Darshalano is an anagram for.
sag3 06-09-06, 11:23 PM	The paintings could be like a spell book if you have the item to read the spell book (glasses) you can learn the spells perhaps even sorcerors can learn extra spells this way. Perhaps it is a single paged eternal spell book. Perhaps it is a schema like item. Maybe it can enable the wielder to shape shift into different dragon forms (giving extra breath weapons) one for each color and this is a part of his plan to attempt to assend to god-hood so that he is able to gain more information on the prophecy. PCs can learn about the items power but not how to use it just before the dragon steals it away leaving them going this thing is powerful and we just lost it. Could always be something as simple as a map to the dragons lair which only shows itself when the painter dies. This painting has just become active and what the evil dragon really wants is in the lair to be found. He doesnt need the map just the information on it so it could use the PCs in other ways to find this out. Of cause the painting would be nice to hang on the wall of his own lair.
Sereno 06-11-06, 04:09 PM	Thanks for all the great ideas, folks! I still have plenty of time to decide what the evil dragon is up to, my players haven't even finished the murder mystery.... :)
Kreistor1 06-12-06, 10:17 PM	We need to up the villain's involvement. His desire to gain a piece of the prophecy is a little weak. He really needs to be taking part because of his interpretation of the prophecy. So he knows the end result of his favorite part of the prophecy will somehow aid himself and/or dragonkind. These 10 dragons already determined the full extent of this branch, and he knows it. so he knows the end of the Prophecy but not all the details in between. Okay, I have a problem. To many possibilities. How about you help me out a little by answering a few questions, Sereno. 1) Do you want the villain to be attempting to stop a branch of the prophecy or cause a branch to become active? 2) How severe do you want the consequences to be if the villain's concept of the Prophecy succeeds? 10 would be Xoriat aligning and a new invasion and 1 being a rat jumps on a PC's head, and -10 would be the villain releases a great good that helps Khorvaire (ie. he's misinterpreated the prophecy... this is a great out for you, and the Players can get a laugh). 3) Do you want the ancient dragons to be good guys or bad guys? 4) Do you want the ancient dragons to have misinterpreted the Prophecy? Now, here's a good hook for the PC's. What you have here is a puzzle in mulitple parts. We also need a hook for the PC's... something to inspire them to seek this one out despite the difficulties. I mean, if the villain is smart, he learns of the painting, sends a good offer, and just buys it off him. Stealing it is dumb. So, who do we know that loves puzzles, especially the deeply involved DaVinci kind? Well, classically, that's Sphinx territory. I like to immerse players, so this is an opportunity to use this... Flamewind (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebsi/20060129a) So, let's give Flamewind one of these paintings. It's a "pet project" she is working on. If the PC's haven't consulted an Art Dealer about the painting yet, then she can already have it and she's publicly offering money to anyone willing to part with others in the series. Only the right kind of people know about that sort of thing, so biggie that the PC's don't know. If they haven't consulted, then you can place an article in the Sharn Inquisitor that "Flamewind acquires first in Dragonflight Series" in the Arts section. Now she goes public with obtaining more. She can discuss having a line on the gold, but the dealer recently passed away without revealing where he was trying to procure it from. Ta da! Instant legitimacy. No one knows where it was, so if the PC's get found out about the theft, no one can accuse them. Anyway, Flamewind can be our patron. As a professor at the University, she can't get out to places except during sabbaticals. So, she needs legs to do the dirty work. She could send University endorsed staff, but she risks other professors gaining her knowledge. The PC's are perfect, especially if they gain a rep for stopping that murderer they're hunting. A nice little puzzle solved there... maybe they can help with a more mundane one. Okay, the pictures themselves. They should contain layers of information. The easiest layer is straight out of HBHG. The picture is actually of a place. To survive any length of time without that fact being discovered, something has to be wrong with it. The one that popped into my head had to do with moons. A mountain range in the background could be a particular place, except that the artist painted a moon near the horizon (pick one). Unfortunately, if that is the place, the moon can't be in that particular phase and the sky be blue... only at night could that moon appear that way. So, Flamewind's answer? The correct answer is usually the easiest one. If this is a puzzle as she suspects, then that is probably the right location, but the phase of the moon is a clue. That indicates a time. So, go to that place at that time, and see what you see. What happens next I would need your help on. What level of magic do you want to use, if any at all? Me? I'd put a ruin there. By the light of that moon in that place at that time of night, the ruins create a symbol. What does that symbol do? WHo cares right now, we'll worry about that later. Another alternative? A Magic portal opens. It gates the PC's to a dungeon. They crash their way through horrors and abominations to find the symbol on the floor in the last room. Yay! I reuse symbol for simplicity. It can be a macguffin, eldritch machine, words of prophecy, whatever. Pick a plot device, any plot device. They are all going to lead us to the same place. What that place is depends on the severity of the villain's desires. I don't scale severity to PC level. At L5, my PC's prevented a major release of demons from Haka'torvhak. (Something that went over their heads it turns out.) So my general idea is that these symbols will combine to indicate another location. At this point, it occurs to me that there should probably be a Baker's Dozen included, so you may want to reconsider 10 pictures and up that to 12 using gem dragons or some of the rarer options. So, how do 12 locations turn into 1? You can certainly handwave that, if you wish. If not, we can do it like this. The pictures are somehow grouped into four 3's. That could be what each of the symbols do. From each three you extract a fourth point. (Center, the fourth is the corner of a square, parallelogram, something geometrical works nicely.) the four extracted points when connected indicate the thirteenth point. (Easiest is the place where the two lines cross.) The paintings can include clues as to how to turn the three into four. In fact, each symbol can use a different trick for another layer of puzzle. So, that thirteenth place contains our eldritch machine. Of course, our storyline works more fluidly if the players follow the villain. Sustaining a chase of this sort is hard. I've ssen it done poorly and well. Poor chases handwave. Good chases keep the PC's tantalizingly close. Surprisingly, the faster the better. The faster the chase, the louder the one in front has to be. He can't hide so well if he's running hard, leaving more easily followed clues. Slow chases handwave and make the villain hard to detect, so the PC's never really know they're on the right track. Anyway, fast and loud is usually best. Well, that's a logn way into the future. Meanwhile... Having to obtain all of the paintings is not going to work for the PC's. If it takes all 10-12 pieces, and the villain has some, you'll have to set up an encounter where the PC's get their hands on them. The clues, if only located in the images and not the paint, mean the PC's can lean what they need from descriptions of paintings they fail to capture, and the Dragon can do the same. Now, having all 12 might be important for activating or stopping the machine, or for enabling or disabling traps. Anyway, knowing how it all works provides the time to figure out motivation later. The PC's don't know and shouldn't know why the dragon is doing his thing, so worrying too much about that is unimportant. It can be determined and revealed later. It can be tailored to how much you want this to affect (or not affect) your Eberron. The important thing now is to know how the painting works.
Sereno 06-13-06, 08:38 AM	We need to up the villain's involvement. His desire to gain a piece of the prophecy is a little weak. He really needs to be taking part because of his interpretation of the prophecy. So he knows the end result of his favorite part of the prophecy will somehow aid himself and/or dragonkind. These 10 dragons already determined the full extent of this branch, and he knows it. so he knows the end of the Prophecy but not all the details in between. Knowing the "end" of the Prophesy is just a little too big for this. I don't want this to turn into a campaign that will last my PCs to the end of their careers. I just want it to be cool and interesting. I don't like long campaigns, they usually get railroady at some point and I don't really like doing that to my players. Better would be something that I can weave in and out of other smaller adventures so it doesn't feel like they're ALWAYS after this dragon and his paintings. I think the dragon needs to be trying to start what he thinks is an important branch, and he believes the return of these 10 dragons is key to that. Okay, I have a problem. To many possibilities. How about you help me out a little by answering a few questions, Sereno. 1) Do you want the villain to be attempting to stop a branch of the prophecy or cause a branch to become active? 2) How severe do you want the consequences to be if the villain's concept of the Prophecy succeeds? 10 would be Xoriat aligning and a new invasion and 1 being a rat jumps on a PC's head, and -10 would be the villain releases a great good that helps Khorvaire (ie. he's misinterpreated the prophecy... this is a great out for you, and the Players can get a laugh). 3) Do you want the ancient dragons to be good guys or bad guys? 4) Do you want the ancient dragons to have misinterpreted the Prophecy? 1) Definately starting something ... it's more dramatic to be involved in the unfolding of something than it is to stop something that might never be. 2) About a 3 (maybe 4) it should be potentially dangerous, maybe to a small area (like Sharn), with greater implications. The return of the dragons will cause a lot of damage, but what does their actual return mean in the long run? 3) Both. They're dragons, and their motivations should be nigh-inscrutable. Some should be good and some should be evil and they should have an agenda that will both hurt and help. I like the idea of them coming from the war with the Elves and Vol's line rather than the giants ... if they're going after the giants there's nothing more for them to do. 4) It doesn't really matter. The part of the prophesy that the main character believes requires their return so he's doing everything possible to make it happen. Now, here's a good hook for the PC's. What you have here is a puzzle in mulitple parts. We also need a hook for the PC's... something to inspire them to seek this one out despite the difficulties. I mean, if the villain is smart, he learns of the painting, sends a good offer, and just buys it off him. Stealing it is dumb. So, who do we know that loves puzzles, especially the deeply involved DaVinci kind? Well, classically, that's Sphinx territory. I like to immerse players, so this is an opportunity to use this... Flamewind (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebsi/20060129a) So, let's give Flamewind one of these paintings. It's a "pet project" she is working on. If the PC's haven't consulted an Art Dealer about the painting yet, then she can already have it and she's publicly offering money to anyone willing to part with others in the series. Only the right kind of people know about that sort of thing, so biggie that the PC's don't know. If they haven't consulted, then you can place an article in the Sharn Inquisitor that "Flamewind acquires first in Dragonflight Series" in the Arts section. Now she goes public with obtaining more. She can discuss having a line on the gold, but the dealer recently passed away without revealing where he was trying to procure it from. Ta da! Instant legitimacy. No one knows where it was, so if the PC's get found out about the theft, no one can accuse them. Anyway, Flamewind can be our patron. As a professor at the University, she can't get out to places except during sabbaticals. So, she needs legs to do the dirty work. She could send University endorsed staff, but she risks other professors gaining her knowledge. The PC's are perfect, especially if they gain a rep for stopping that murderer they're hunting. A nice little puzzle solved there... maybe they can help with a more mundane one. Flamewind is a great idea. They've already taken the painting to a art dealer and an art historian at Morgrave -- they've got a contact there, a dwarf archaeologist they've been doing minor tasks for. News of this painting could certainly have gotten to Flamewind and she can recognize that it's important. How could Flamewind know about the other dragon and the Prophesy he's working on? Another member of the Chamber ... my PCs have already met one, but they don't know it. She could have found out, through her own Morgrave contacts, that Flamewind is interested in these paintings (for a different reason) and tipped her off of their growing import in the Prophesy. Okay, the pictures themselves. They should contain layers of information. The easiest layer is straight out of HBHG. The picture is actually of a place. To survive any length of time without that fact being discovered, something has to be wrong with it. The one that popped into my head had to do with moons. A mountain range in the background could be a particular place, except that the artist painted a moon near the horizon (pick one). Unfortunately, if that is the place, the moon can't be in that particular phase and the sky be blue... only at night could that moon appear that way. So, Flamewind's answer? The correct answer is usually the easiest one. If this is a puzzle as she suspects, then that is probably the right location, but the phase of the moon is a clue. That indicates a time. So, go to that place at that time, and see what you see. What happens next I would need your help on. What level of magic do you want to use, if any at all? Me? I'd put a ruin there. By the light of that moon in that place at that time of night, the ruins create a symbol. What does that symbol do? WHo cares right now, we'll worry about that later. I like it. Each painting IS of a particular place ... each place leads to a different symbol. Each symbol is a key to the Eldritch Machine! Each location is a "dungeon" ... something to explore, some treasure to gain, some monsters to fight ... but each one's original purpose was to mark the location of one of those dragonmarks that appears "naturally". This gives me an opportunity to send the PCs all over Eberron, to all of the wonderful places I haven't had any reason to send them! :) I reuse symbol for simplicity. It can be a macguffin, eldritch machine, words of prophecy, whatever. Pick a plot device, any plot device. They are all going to lead us to the same place. What that place is depends on the severity of the villain's desires. I don't scale severity to PC level. At L5, my PC's prevented a major release of demons from Haka'torvhak. (Something that went over their heads it turns out.) They're 6th now, probably 7 or 8 by the time the really get into the paintings. Maybe 10th by the time they're done. 10th should be able to handle one dragon and his minions. Just cause he's ruthless, smart, evil and part of the Chamber doesn't mean he's a Great Wyrm ... it's almost a guarantee that he's younger, more rash. I'm planning to keep his CR at least 2 ahead of the PCs ... dragons are tough for the CR so I think that should be a really tough encounter but not a TPK. They will NEVER catch him "unaware" and sleeping on a pile of gold. :) So my general idea is that these symbols will combine to indicate another location. At this point, it occurs to me that there should probably be a Baker's Dozen included, so you may want to reconsider 10 pictures and up that to 12 using gem dragons or some of the rarer options. So, how do 12 locations turn into 1? You can certainly handwave that, if you wish. If not, we can do it like this. The pictures are somehow grouped into four 3's. That could be what each of the symbols do. From each three you extract a fourth point. (Center, the fourth is the corner of a square, parallelogram, something geometrical works nicely.) the four extracted points when connected indicate the thirteenth point. (Easiest is the place where the two lines cross.) The paintings can include clues as to how to turn the three into four. In fact, each symbol can use a different trick for another layer of puzzle. Bakers' Dozen: 10 paintings of metallic and chromatic dragons. 1 painting of "Syberis" one painting of "Khyber" ... the missing one (and therefore the Eldritch Machine) Eberron! :) I'm picturing the Eldritch Machine like a big sphere of gold and silver pipes and wires hovering above a platform, with moving, rotating "arms" extending all around the "equator" and two larger ones at the poles. The symbol (found at the sites) must be cast from a metal that matches the make-up of the "arm" and bolted into place. Each time a symbol is added, the Eldritch Machine wakes up a little more; gets louder, moves faster ... until it only becomes possible to attach symbols to the "pole" arms (Syberis and Khyber, of course) completeing the circuit and turning it on. So, that thirteenth place contains our eldritch machine. Of course, our storyline works more fluidly if the players follow the villain. Sustaining a chase of this sort is hard. I've ssen it done poorly and well. Poor chases handwave. Good chases keep the PC's tantalizingly close. Surprisingly, the faster the better. The faster the chase, the louder the one in front has to be. He can't hide so well if he's running hard, leaving more easily followed clues. Slow chases handwave and make the villain hard to detect, so the PC's never really know they're on the right track. Anyway, fast and loud is usually best. Well, that's a logn way into the future. Meanwhile... Having to obtain all of the paintings is not going to work for the PC's. If it takes all 10-12 pieces, and the villain has some, you'll have to set up an encounter where the PC's get their hands on them. The clues, if only located in the images and not the paint, mean the PC's can lean what they need from descriptions of paintings they fail to capture, and the Dragon can do the same. Now, having all 12 might be important for activating or stopping the machine, or for enabling or disabling traps. Anyway, knowing how it all works provides the time to figure out motivation later. The PC's don't know and shouldn't know why the dragon is doing his thing, so worrying too much about that is unimportant. It can be determined and revealed later. It can be tailored to how much you want this to affect (or not affect) your Eberron. The important thing now is to know how the painting works. I think that this is going to be part chase, part take-the-initiative, part events-happening-beyond-their-control, part wow-I-didn't-expect-that! :) I think a cool "Eberron twist" would be for the PCs learn about the Eldritch Machine and its purpose ... and that it has a *dual purpose*. They can thwart the dragon's plans, in a sense they can send the Prophesy down a different branch (courtesy of their "friend" the good silver Chamber dragon) if they activate it in a "reversed" configuration (putting the Khyber symbol on the top and the Syberis symbol on the bottom). The Eldritch Machine can be it's own wonderous location that (eventually) the PCs and the dragon knows about and goes to. The race is to be the one who "completes" it, first. That way it never really matters how many pieces the PCs can wrest away from the dragon ... so long as THEY put in the last piece, they can operate the machine to their specifications! Of course, the dragon will try to guard the machine, but he's also going to be busy trying to recover lost paintings, too. They could end up both searching the same ruins and encounter each other over and over. Thanks for all your help on this ... you've really gotten my creative juices flowing!! If I ever publish it, I'll make sure you get credit and a cut!!
RaidingPartyGames 06-13-06, 10:03 AM	By the way, a cookie to the first person who can figure out what famous dragon Darshalano is an anagram for. Ashardalon! Gimme cookie! Okay... you got up to 10 dragonz awakening, plus three progenitorz... I'd say it could be a 'progressively worse' problem if our draconic friend gets his handz on them. The ten were willingly turned into weaponz, and they bound the powers of their foresirez... so here'z what happenz az each piece of the machine iz interpreted and then put into play {and an alternate if the party gets there first} White - Hard winter. Nothing catastrophic on its own, but I'm sure Karrnath will be unhappy and the Children of Winter will be thrilled. Glacierz might start forming in the sea of teeth, and people returning from Stormreach report blizzardz. {points to a treasure in the Frostfell; guarded by the recently-reawakened white champion, who would be willing to part with it if reasoned with} Black - Horkathorvak (iz that the name?) actually made this one, and is released. Starts making a mess of Q'barra. Seriously virulent plaguez plague Xendrix, anyone headed that way (especilly Jorasco) gets hazard pay. {Horkathorvak, being suddenly aware of the party, iz willing to communicate with them just once, and summonz them} Brass - Khorvaire'z dezert doublez in size. {There'z a one-day diminishing of the Mournland} Green - Madwood suddenly expandz. One of Aerenal'z citiez iz under attack by Twig Blights, Shamblerz, Wood Golemz, Tendriculoi, and so on. {Party learns Druidic, is allowed to witness a super-secret ceremony} Blue - Thunderstormz. Lots of 'em. Especially around Xendrix. {Serenz seek out the party, going across ocean to find them, ask them on 'the quest of thunder'; a storm giant haz managed to gain the blue'z soul in the intervening yearz and is uzing it for something else.} Copper - Dragonmark plague - each day, DC 10 or catch the plague (and an aberrant dragonmark). Each day thereafter DC 12 or loze 1d3 from a random ability score. True dragonmarks are immune, but already-marked aberrants have a DC 15 to catch the plague. {If the party haz a dragonmarked, people inexplicably want to help them for a week, and drop 'treasures of better dragonmark' in their next cache; if no party members, the d'Housez inexplicably offer them help for a week} Bronze - Sudden 'part water' effect arizez between Argonessen and Aerenal, Serenz go on the march led by the newly-awakened copper general.{Another map, with underwater treasure this time.} Red - Volcano. Doesn't matter where, that's just bad newz, yo! {Fernia becomes coterminous, can seek inside to retrieve and/or inform the red champion, it'll probably be grateful... probably...} Silver - Lycanthropic explosion in Valenar, all lycanthropes everywhere switch to 'CE' as their default alignment, Afflicted lycanthropes can pass the curse. {Couatl finally manage to purify the silver champion, who was demon-infested; that handful of couatl seeks out the party and tellz them... stuff...} Gold - Gravity... doezn't alwayz work the way it normally doez. Dhakaani empire reformed. {Party gets a free air walk to a cloud castle... where, strikingly, Dhakaani artifacts are stored; if returned, they get a 'get out of slavery free' card from Lesh Haruuc} Syberis - Massive dragonshard stormz. Including some on Sarlona. {All the Kalashtar look smug... the Veil is somehow draining power from the monoliths; Party automatically knows where the siberys stormz will be for the next week} Khyber - Demonz, demonz, and more demonz. Oh, and the storm around Ashtakala stops. {One 'get out of dolurrh free' khyber shard} Eberron - Okay, if it's gone this far, and Eberron is released, it really iz the end of the world. {Massive Eberron shard garden growz... in the party'z back yard, and they win the game and live happily ever after}
Dragonmann 06-13-06, 10:28 AM	Just some bullet points to think on: The evil dragon (Ed) is working to release the ancient Dragon Fiend (read Tarrasque) and the pictures are clues of where and how. Who else opposes or supports Ed. The Aurum, the Chamber, the Lords of Dust, etc. Remember in eberron, the enemy of your enemy is not necessarily your friend. Heck, your friends aren't necessarily your friends when the gold is trading hands. Obfuscation is key. Maybe it isn't the picture but the background, or even the frame that is important. Perhaps the scale/paint is the material needed for a cloning? Who made the paintings? Is there one artist who used the scales of his subject to make the paint, or a coven that participated in this odd ritual. What powers do the paintings have, on their own, when used by "somebody special". Can they speak, perhaps a magic mouth triggered by bringing the painting to the location depicted in the background. Could the paintings be keys to eldritch prisons wherein are contained the dragons depicted. An evil "anti-chamber" which Ed is a member of, or descendant of. Consider where out of bounds is for the game. Khyber? Trips to planes? Argonessen? Frostfell? The ocean deep, among the Aboleth? Just some random thoughts...
Sereno 06-13-06, 10:50 AM	Okay... you got up to 10 dragonz awakening, plus three progenitorz... Good ideas, but do you have any idea what a headache it is to read your post with all the Z's? :confused: "Hallelujah, Holy Sh**, where's the Tylenol...." :)
Kreistor1 06-13-06, 12:32 PM	Making the "Symbols" the Dragonmarks is interesting and flavourful, but it adds another layer of puzzle that you will have to create. Those dragonmarks will now need to somehow associate to yet another layer that needs to resolve down to, eventually, one location. Flamewind doesn't need to know anything about the Dragon Prophecy. Sphinxes are entirely obsessed with puzzles, and don't need more motivation than that. That also adds a layer of stress for the PC's. When they learn of the villain's involvement and his interest in the Prophecy, do they tell their patron, or not? Would Flamewind want to stand in the way of the dragons once she learns what this is really about? Handing her a piece of the final puzzle may actually reduce her interest. "Oh, this is those silly dragons mucking about a-GAIN? Bah, why bother then?" The PC's aren't going to be so worried about the details of the Prophecy. They will need to knwo what the end result of the Villain's efforts will be. Why risk their lives if it's over a Dragon gaining some obscure knowledge? That's why I wanted the villain to be starting with an end goal in sight, but lacking the in between parts. If the PC's learn his end goal, regardless of anything else, they may want to stop him. The Villain hunting through an obscure prophecy and ony interfering in the PC's money making is often not enough to drive the players into the conflict. They need a hook and I often find they need a big one. Being offered money is always a good choice, but if they can get money elsewhere, they may choose to abandon a conflict over one money source in order to gain easier money, even though its not as much money. The way I envision this playing out is: 1) Flamewind helps the PC's figure out the clues in the painting. Flamewind of course solves it right off, being that type of person, but Sphinxes love to test others' abilities and so she will hint the PC's through solving the painting themselves. 2) Flamewind hires the PC's to check out their solution. Delve the dungeon, get the clue. 3) PC's find two other paintings (I prefer found in secret so they get them easily). Flamewind could buy them, or the PC's could go visit collectors. Gain two more clues. 4) PC's find fourth painting. Put this one in a museum where they can see it but not take it with them. 5) In visiting the fourth location, they determine someone has beaten them to it. The symbol is there, but the monsters and traps were all dealt with recently. PRovide hints as to the nature of the enemy. (I'd avoid the breath weapon, but leave claw marks in corpses. That's suitably nondescript enough that there are a number of possible opponents.) 6) In checking out the 5th painting (another museum or an auction?), the PC's run into their opponent in humanoid form. 7) They clear the next dungeon, but their opponent enters behind them, gaining the symbol. (Human form.) Offers to work together, etc. PLay the dragon smart. He'll trade symbols, but not all the ones he has, and not ones from paintings he owns. 8) At this point, it depends on the PC's. Do they trust this guy, or suspect he's their Clawbeast? I can't get much more on specifics. 9) At some point in this, the PC's must learn of the nefarious designs of their enemy. They need to come to understand an Evil will be done. Given that up until this point the competition has been friendly, the key needs to be turned to make them realize there is a desperate need here. 10) The PC's may need to learn the location of the dragon's lair in order to get some of the paintings if you trap yourself in a corner. You can avoid this by ensuring people that have seen the paintings are available. However, if you want to buy time, you can do this... 11a) The PC's find the Dragon's paintings and have a task to get the last few locations. It's time consuming. The Dragon learns the final location, but he hits a snag. He must have all 13 paintings in order to enter the last location. So, for both, they have time consuming tasks ahead of themselves. The PC's can learn of the theft of the paintings. 11b) The PC's find the last symbols in the dragons lair and don't need to go themselves. 12) It's now a race to the machine. 12a) Dragon enters first. The PC's play catch-up, but the dragon has to deal with the defences. Make certain some enemies are still there to be fought, since they hid from the dragon but aren't afraid of some puny humans. 12b) The PC's enter first. The dragon catches up, but a smart dragon will let the PC's act as Throwing Chickens triggering all the defences for it. 13) Final battle does not have to be at the machine itself. That's how stories work, but I find that I prefer the final action to be in the last room before the machine, letting the PC's gain it in eye-popping wonder instead of gaining it with a monster in the way. I don't think this reads as well if the PC's have to collect the actual paintings. Trying to get all the paintings is not a socially acceptable action. I could see them having to break into an art dealership or private residence of peopel with paintings that don't like visitors, but taking the paintings is a world of trouble. If you are going to go for a geometric pattern for the locations, you can't randomly pick locations. You have to at some point sit down with the locations you've used and a map and work out exactly where you need things to be. I'll take your responses and see what I can come up with this afternoon or evening.
RaidingPartyGames 06-15-06, 10:31 AM	Making the "Symbols" the Dragonmarks is interesting and flavourful, but it adds another layer of puzzle that you will have to create. Those dragonmarks will now need to somehow associate to yet another layer that needs to resolve down to, eventually, one location. One of the previous locations of the Twelve... before it had d'marked houses supporting it? Flamewind doesn't need to know anything about the Dragon Prophecy. Sphinxes are entirely obsessed with puzzles, and don't need more motivation than that. That also adds a layer of stress for the PC's. When they learn of the villain's involvement and his interest in the Prophecy, do they tell their patron, or not? Would Flamewind want to stand in the way of the dragons once she learns what this is really about? Handing her a piece of the final puzzle may actually reduce her interest. "Oh, this is those silly dragons mucking about a-GAIN? Bah, why bother then?" The PC's aren't going to be so worried about the details of the Prophecy. They will need to knwo what the end result of the Villain's efforts will be. Why risk their lives if it's over a Dragon gaining some obscure knowledge? That's why I wanted the villain to be starting with an end goal in sight, but lacking the in between parts. If the PC's learn his end goal, regardless of anything else, they may want to stop him. The Villain hunting through an obscure prophecy and ony interfering in the PC's money making is often not enough to drive the players into the conflict. They need a hook and I often find they need a big one. Being offered money is always a good choice, but if they can get money elsewhere, they may choose to abandon a conflict over one money source in order to gain easier money, even though its not as much money. I think I handled that with the 'end of the world' thing... The way I envision this playing out is: 1) Flamewind helps the PC's figure out the clues in the painting. Flamewind of course solves it right off, being that type of person, but Sphinxes love to test others' abilities and so she will hint the PC's through solving the painting themselves. 2) Flamewind hires the PC's to check out their solution. Delve the dungeon, get the clue. 3) PC's find two other paintings (I prefer found in secret so they get them easily). Flamewind could buy them, or the PC's could go visit collectors. Gain two more clues. 4) PC's find fourth painting. Put this one in a museum where they can see it but not take it with them. 5) In visiting the fourth location, they determine someone has beaten them to it. The symbol is there, but the monsters and traps were all dealt with recently. PRovide hints as to the nature of the enemy. (I'd avoid the breath weapon, but leave claw marks in corpses. That's suitably nondescript enough that there are a number of possible opponents.) I'm not sure about this... okay, I like the eventual conclusion, especially when reconciling 'humanoid looking rival' with 'claws like scythes', but what does the result of (taking green, for example) acid gas really look like? You get... mostly melted piles of... goo. Also creepy, and unless someone has know(arcana), (and if they do, roll in secret or at a mcguffin point like when they're examining the painting... and if they get it right, go, "You just recalled something...") And if they do connect deaths with rival, they'll think he's a wizard, equally good shock value. Red could be fireballs, white is literally a cone of cold, blue is lightning bolt... 6) In checking out the 5th painting (another museum or an auction?), the PC's run into their opponent in humanoid form. 7) They clear the next dungeon, but their opponent enters behind them, gaining the symbol. (Human form.) Offers to work together, etc. PLay the dragon smart. He'll trade symbols, but not all the ones he has, and not ones from paintings he owns. 8) At this point, it depends on the PC's. Do they trust this guy, or suspect he's their Clawbeast? I can't get much more on specifics. 9) At some point in this, the PC's must learn of the nefarious designs of their enemy. They need to come to understand an Evil will be done. Given that up until this point the competition has been friendly, the key needs to be turned to make them realize there is a desperate need here. Despite it being a little more epic than the original poster asked for, I'd still push on the 'seals of the apocalypse' idea. If that one is too big, you can still have 'something' happen as each locale is unearthed, and the final one could be 'Khyber unbound' rather than 'universe ceasez to exist'... still bad, but undoable. 10) The PC's may need to learn the location of the dragon's lair in order to get some of the paintings if you trap yourself in a corner. You can avoid this by ensuring people that have seen the paintings are available. However, if you want to buy time, you can do this... Friendly professors being chased by... elven actorz? What? Of course, one of these could be planted by the dragon as well. 11a) The PC's find the Dragon's paintings and have a task to get the last few locations. It's time consuming. The Dragon learns the final location, but he hits a snag. He must have all 13 paintings in order to enter the last location. So, for both, they have time consuming tasks ahead of themselves. The PC's can learn of the theft of the paintings. 11b) The PC's find the last symbols in the dragons lair and don't need to go themselves. 12) It's now a race to the machine. 12a) Dragon enters first. The PC's play catch-up, but the dragon has to deal with the defences. Make certain some enemies are still there to be fought, since they hid from the dragon but aren't afraid of some puny humans. 12b) The PC's enter first. The dragon catches up, but a smart dragon will let the PC's act as Throwing Chickens triggering all the defences for it. I'd say 12b is a classic villain manipulation. Just make sure they didn't just watch Indiana Jones, and it'll work great. 13) Final battle does not have to be at the machine itself. That's how stories work, but I find that I prefer the final action to be in the last room before the machine, letting the PC's gain it in eye-popping wonder instead of gaining it with a monster in the way. Depends on the machine, and how it's presented. The first Tomb Raider had a pretty good idea of a tense time-dependent scene that still gave us time to appreciate the complexity of the machine. More effective if either combined with 12b after you've had a minute to look at it (and then hear the slow clapping of handz from behind you) or if 12a, you see the machine, and at the end of the description you see a pair of malevolent eyes through a gap in the machine... cue 'Set Pieces: Eldritch Machine' (check the thread) I don't think this reads as well if the PC's have to collect the actual paintings. Trying to get all the paintings is not a socially acceptable action. I could see them having to break into an art dealership or private residence of peopel with paintings that don't like visitors, but taking the paintings is a world of trouble. Depending on the ethics and moralz of the party. They could very well if chaotic. (And return them later, if chaotic good). (insert art heist replacing with forged painting here) If you are going to go for a geometric pattern for the locations, you can't randomly pick locations. You have to at some point sit down with the locations you've used and a map and work out exactly where you need things to be. I'll take your responses and see what I can come up with this afternoon or evening. [color=red]The original text has been stolen and replaced with a forgery.[/red]
Sereno 06-15-06, 12:07 PM	Making the "Symbols" the Dragonmarks is interesting and flavourful, but it adds another layer of puzzle that you will have to create. Those dragonmarks will now need to somehow associate to yet another layer that needs to resolve down to, eventually, one location. I don't think the dragonmarks need to be associated with anything in particular ... they're the "random" ones that appear in caves and other sites around the world, not the ones from the Houses. In fact, I don't want to bring the Houses into this, at all. I'm pretty sure I can draw 12 symbols that look something like the ones in the book for my players, that will be enough. Flamewind doesn't need to know anything about the Dragon Prophecy. Sphinxes are entirely obsessed with puzzles, and don't need more motivation than that. That also adds a layer of stress for the PC's. When they learn of the villain's involvement and his interest in the Prophecy, do they tell their patron, or not? Would Flamewind want to stand in the way of the dragons once she learns what this is really about? Handing her a piece of the final puzzle may actually reduce her interest. "Oh, this is those silly dragons mucking about a-GAIN? Bah, why bother then?" The PC's aren't going to be so worried about the details of the Prophecy. They will need to knwo what the end result of the Villain's efforts will be. Why risk their lives if it's over a Dragon gaining some obscure knowledge? That's why I wanted the villain to be starting with an end goal in sight, but lacking the in between parts. If the PC's learn his end goal, regardless of anything else, they may want to stop him. The Villain hunting through an obscure prophecy and ony interfering in the PC's money making is often not enough to drive the players into the conflict. They need a hook and I often find they need a big one. Being offered money is always a good choice, but if they can get money elsewhere, they may choose to abandon a conflict over one money source in order to gain easier money, even though its not as much money. True ... in fact Flamewind's interest WOULD wane as soon as she realized what's going on. She seems to have no interest in dragons or prophesies, but would really be interested in the riddles of each painting. Coming up with the 12 "riddle paintings", I think, is going to be the hardest part. Basically, I want each riddle to be pretty much the same; a location somewhere on Eberron, a particular time (that should be attainable more than once a year ... possibly always tied to a time of day). I don't really care if the "key" ends up being easier once a few of the paintings are investigated ... they don't need to keep getting harder and harder.... Also, the PCs DO need to discover what the dragon is up to. And, bringing about his part of the Prophesy has to be more meaningful and dangerous than simply learning something esoteric. It must result in serious damage, something they're going to want to stop. Releasing huge, powerful, angry dragons on an unsuspecting Sharn is more than enough for me. The way I envision this playing out is: I like most of the steps, but I've really gotten to like the idea that they'll visit the machine more than once. If they have a symbol and go to the machine thinking it's not the last one and then discover that it is, the tension will go up because they know the bad guy will be getting close to "do anything" mode and possibly go psychotic on them! :) I don't think this reads as well if the PC's have to collect the actual paintings. Trying to get all the paintings is not a socially acceptable action. I could see them having to break into an art dealership or private residence of peopel with paintings that don't like visitors, but taking the paintings is a world of trouble. No, I agree. I think a big part of this is that they're coming in near the end. Several of the paintings have already been decoded and the symbol found and properly translated into the machine. They need to recover, or decode, the last few before the dragon does so they can stop him from starting the machine in the "release them" mode. If you are going to go for a geometric pattern for the locations, you can't randomly pick locations. You have to at some point sit down with the locations you've used and a map and work out exactly where you need things to be. I'll take your responses and see what I can come up with this afternoon or evening. I think in some cases the symbol will be found IN the "dungeon" and sometimes it will actually BE the "dungeon". The PCs will have to figure that out for themselves; maybe there's a clue in the paintings.
Kreistor1 06-15-06, 01:51 PM	1) Do you want the villain to be attempting to stop a branch of the prophecy or cause a branch to become active? 2) How severe do you want the consequences to be if the villain's concept of the Prophecy succeeds? 10 would be Xoriat aligning and a new invasion and 1 being a rat jumps on a PC's head, and -10 would be the villain releases a great good that helps Khorvaire (ie. he's misinterpreated the prophecy... this is a great out for you, and the Players can get a laugh). 3) Do you want the ancient dragons to be good guys or bad guys? 4) Do you want the ancient dragons to have misinterpreted the Prophecy? 1) Definately starting something ... it's more dramatic to be involved in the unfolding of something than it is to stop something that might never be. 2) About a 3 (maybe 4) it should be potentially dangerous, maybe to a small area (like Sharn), with greater implications. The return of the dragons will cause a lot of damage, but what does their actual return mean in the long run? 3) Both. They're dragons, and their motivations should be nigh-inscrutable. Some should be good and some should be evil and they should have an agenda that will both hurt and help. I like the idea of them coming from the war with the Elves and Vol's line rather than the giants ... if they're going after the giants there's nothing more for them to do. 4) It doesn't really matter. The part of the prophesy that the main character believes requires their return so he's doing everything possible to make it happen. I assume by "main character" you mean villain? Your response in 4 suggests you want the villain to believe he's ressurrecting dead dragons (Which from this point on I will refer to as the Dragonflight) in order to achieve some goal of the prophecy. That's workable. He doesn't actually have to know what the machine is really doing or what the Dragonflight are actually planning to do when they return. Whatever he believes they are doing needs to be worrisome to the PC's and attractive to him... worrisome enough that they don't want to risk success. A 3 response in Q2 probably isn't enough for that, so what the villain is trying to do has to be worse than what will actually happen. So two problems to solve. What is the villain wanting to achieve and what is he going to achieve? The severity of the first depends somewhat on your own party's motivations. Given they're acting as detectives looking into a murder in Sharn right now, I'll assume they're a standard good guy party based in Sharn. Okay, here are some options of what the villain believes he is doing: 1) The Dragonflight will tear down Galifar and restore the goblinoids to power in order to prevent a demonic (Inspired) invasion of Khorvaire. 2) The Dragonflight will support an invasion from Sarlona and the adherence of all Khorvaire to the Inspired. This will solidify the rule of Law on Khorvaire and prepare it for an invasion from one of the other planes/Lords of Dust/Daelkyr. 3) The Dragonflight will restore the position of Dal Quor, restoring the rule of 13 to Eberron. The resulting invasion will devastate Khorvaire, but shift the Dragonmarks to their proper hosts, the Dragons. 4) The eldritch machine will ressurrect the Dragons with the Dragonmarks, resulting in a new Age of Dragons. The humanoids with dragonsmarks will be thralls of their draconic masters, ensuring that the Prophecy takes the best course for the Dragons. Now, what it actually does shouldn't be near as grandiose. 1) The Dragonflight are restored, but they are not the large ancient dragons the villain expected. They return as young dragons, and it will be hundreds of years before the branch of the prophecy they are involved in will become active. 2) The PC's interfere with the machine as it is being used, causing the Dragonflight to return as Dracoliches. The failure of the machine to perform correctly means the intial Prophecy is not set in motion, and they are now left to their own Undead desires. A more mundane evil to eliminate. Not a good idea for them all to ressurrect at the same spot. One at the final location gets the point across. I guess this does beg another question. Do you want the Dragonflight to be released regardless of success or failure? BTW, unknowable inscrutable motivations do not lend well to a final resolution. Players, after successfully dealing with an evil want to see that their work achieved a positive end result. If stopping the villain results in the release of many beings of questionable morals, why did I bother stopping him in the first place? I may have made the world worse. 3) The machine has actually been holding back the creation of swamp that will become a manifest zone of Xoriat. It's just pumping water out to keep the land too dry for the zone to form. Since the zone is close to Sharn, that's not going to be a happy situation. More?
Sereno 06-15-06, 02:18 PM	I assume by "main character" you mean villain? Your response in 4 suggests you want the villain to believe he's ressurrecting dead dragons (Which from this point on I will refer to as the Dragonflight) in order to achieve some goal of the prophecy. That's workable. He doesn't actually have to know what the machine is really doing or what the Dragonflight are actually planning to do when they return. Yes, I mean the "main villain." Whether he believes he's resurrecting them or simply recovering them from some sort of stasis isn't really important. He's planning to summon the Dragonflight in the middle of Sharn. I like that. That's bad enough in itself to want to stop. That the Dragonflight might have even WORSE repercussions is gravy. Whatever he believes they are doing needs to be worrisome to the PC's and attractive to him... worrisome enough that they don't want to risk success. A 3 response in Q2 probably isn't enough for that, so what the villain is trying to do has to be worse than what will actually happen. So two problems to solve. What is the villain wanting to achieve and what is he going to achieve? The severity of the first depends somewhat on your own party's motivations. Given they're acting as detectives looking into a murder in Sharn right now, I'll assume they're a standard good guy party based in Sharn. Yeah, they're good guys and now based in Sharn. They have plenty of reasons to like Sharn and are generally good enough to get involved. In the immediate, he's going to want to acquire the painting that they just found so he can add it to his collection and figure it out to get the next symbol to power his machine. I've already got a plan on how far he'll go that should be more than enough to get my PCs on his trail, too. Okay, here are some options of what the villain believes he is doing: 1) The Dragonflight will tear down Galifar and restore the goblinoids to power in order to prevent a demonic (Inspired) invasion of Khorvaire. 2) The Dragonflight will support an invasion from Sarlona and the adherence of all Khorvaire to the Inspired. This will solidify the rule of Law on Khorvaire and prepare it for an invasion from one of the other planes/Lords of Dust/Daelkyr. 3) The Dragonflight will restore the position of Dal Quor, restoring the rule of 13 to Eberron. The resulting invasion will devastate Khorvaire, but shift the Dragonmarks to their proper hosts, the Dragons. 4) The eldritch machine will ressurrect the Dragons with the Dragonmarks, resulting in a new Age of Dragons. The humanoids with dragonsmarks will be thralls of their draconic masters, ensuring that the Prophecy takes the best course for the Dragons. I really like #4 ... he plan is to return the dragonmarks to the dragons and he believes that the Dragonflight is the key to that. Returning the 'marks to the dragons is "THE" key to the Prophesy, as far as he's concerned. Now, what it actually does shouldn't be near as grandiose. 1) The Dragonflight are restored, but they are not the large ancient dragons the villain expected. They return as young dragons, and it will be hundreds of years before the branch of the prophecy they are involved in will become active. 2) The PC's interfere with the machine as it is being used, causing the Dragonflight to return as Dracoliches. The failure of the machine to perform correctly means the intial Prophecy is not set in motion, and they are now left to their own Undead desires. A more mundane evil to eliminate. Not a good idea for them all to ressurrect at the same spot. One at the final location gets the point across. Something more like 1 ... they aren't exactly the dragons he's hoping for ... or, they aren't ready to do what he thinks they are. Still, a bunch of angry dragons appearing in Sharn is something to want to stop. Maybe, they've gone a bit insane in stasis and are going to go "rogue" until the get a hold of themselves.... I guess this does beg another question. Do you want the Dragonflight to be released regardless of success or failure? Definately, it can be thwarted. Operating the machine in "reverse" will cause something else to happen. Something the villan dragon doesn't want ... but perhaps the "good" Chamber dragon does. The "good" Chamber dragon is one who believes that the dragonmarked "lesser races" are critical to the Prophesy and that if they are wiped out and the marks are returned to the dragons, only, the Prophesy will not be completed properly. Competing Prophesy theories work as well as alien abduction conspiracy theories! :) BTW, unknowable inscrutable motivations do not lend well to a final resolution. Players, after successfully dealing with an evil want to see that their work achieved a positive end result. If stopping the villain results in the release of many beings of questionable morals, why did I bother stopping him in the first place? I may have made the world worse. 3) The machine has actually been holding back the creation of swamp that will become a manifest zone of Xoriat. It's just pumping water out to keep the land too dry for the zone to form. Since the zone is close to Sharn, that's not going to be a happy situation. I only meant insrutable for the Dragonflight, not the villan. His motives are basically simple ... he wants to resurrect the Dragonflight for some purpose pertaining to the Prophesy. What the Dragonflight *plans* to do is far less important than simply stopping them from appearing in Sharn. I don't like the machine to have any other purpose aside from fullfilling the Prophesy, one way or the other, I don't want to bring planar mechanics into this. I think it's already going to be confusing enough! :) When the PCs succeed, they'll know they've prevented a lot of destruction because there are no angry dragons to know down towers. :) They might also have to kill the villian dragon.... Probably.... Almost certainly.... :)
Kreistor1 06-15-06, 03:01 PM	"Doctor, doctor! Inspiration has set in!" "16 ounces of fermented grain products, stat!" Okay, how's this scan... When the first dragonmarks appeared, a group of concerned dragons gathered to study the marks. The prophecy revealed to them a way to control the marks. Somehow, they needed to gain the dragonmarks for themselves. They needed them all, though, and several were missing. They discovered they could steal the marks via an eldritch process stolen from ancient giant tech. Not knowing when the 13 would all be revealed, and not trusting their descendents to agree with the process, the dragons realized they may personally have to ensure they survived until all 13 could be found. They created 13 machines, of which a single central machine controlled the others. Each machine stored one of the Dragonflight, and a slot to store one Dragonmarked member of the future 13 houses. They captured one of each that they could, and 12 of Dragonflight took their places in the stasis machines. The youngest dragon remained apart in order to capture new dragonmarks as they appeared. He achieved 12 of the marks. Unfortunately, that young dragon learned that he was dying. The 13th mark (House of Finding was the last, IIRC) was not yet discovered and he could not find a suitable replacement, so, he secreted away the locations of the other 12 in these paintings. He also placed a hint to the story in a draconic book of the prophecy. Hundereds of years later, one dragon stumbles upon the hint and deciphers it. He finds one of the paintings and the machine. He knows what he must do. He must find all of the machines, capture the 13th mark, and activate the machines. That brings us to modern times. And here's the kick in the butt... The party find a way to remove the Member of House Tharashk from the last machine. This corrupts the process. The dragonmarks are stolen, but altered in the transfer. They become Aberrant Dragonmarks, and the dragons begin the process of going insane. I'd give them Siberrys Aberrant marks, personally. Nothin' but the best! That can lead into a new War of the Mark as they inspire other Aberrant marks to grow. That comes more to a 3 or 4. It's a bad result, but it's not world destructive. It can be recovered from through PC and NPC cooperation, without Deus Ex Machina, if you wish.
Sereno 06-15-06, 03:49 PM	Hmmm, I see a problem with the above. First, there's only 13 marks if you count the Mark of Death, which is gone. There are 13 Houses, but only 12 'marks. The timeline messes it up, too: -3200 Hospitality, Shadow, Death (dragons watch in horror) -3000 Healing -2800 Scribing -2600 Sentinel (vol/Death wiped out by dragons) -2500 Making, Warding -2000 Storm -1900 Passage -1800 Handling -1500 Detection -1000 Finding That's 2000 years between the first and the last ... any dragon involved at the start would certainly be a Great Wyrm by the end. That's too much power to unleash because the cost of failure is much more than I wanted. How about this? Each of the mystical marks in the landscape represents a dragon who sacrificed itself to further the Prophesy because it was one of the believers that the dragonmarks appearing among the lesser races was actually very important. There's one for each mark, but the one for Death is also mysteriously gone. The villain dragon is going to use the machine to undo their sacrifice in an attempt to wrest "control" of the dragonmarks away from the "lesser" races. Bringing them back to life will result in them being very angry and confused and likely to cause a lot of destruction. The bigger picture might actually be that the marks start to disappear from mortals. The good Chamber dragon wants the machine turned on (in reverse) to put power back into the marks of the sacrificed dragons so they cannot be used against the dragonmarked mortals. After running in either direction, the machine will destroy itself and thus can only be used once. Why was the machine made to run in both directions? Because one of the dragons involved in it's construction was secretly against the others. If it was built to "power" the sacrificed dragons, the saboteur didn't believe in their sacrifice. If it was built to undo the sacrifce, the saboteur believed it was necessary and should be protected....
Kreistor1 06-15-06, 04:37 PM	Actually, I didn't mess up. You mentioned Stasis, so I used it. The 12 entered stasis in, say, -2700 (didn't have teh timeline at work so couldn't use numbers). They had captured Hospitality, Shadow, Death, Healing, and Scribing by this time, and these people are also being held in stasis. (That gives us Death, allowing us to surprise the characters by making one of the other Marks the 13th. It pays not to be predictable.) The 13th dragon dies (of old age apparently) in -1100 having filled 12 slots. It is @3000 years later that the villain finds the clue. The PC's don't see the dragonmarked characters or the dragons when they find the machines. That needs to be hidden and untouchable. Oh, and another way to corrupt the process would be to activate the 13th machine with a dead Dragon in it. No place for the Mark of Finding to go. Oh, I also just had a little idea about the machine. It doesn't need to hold the dragonmarked individual in stasis, it only needs to hold the mark itself alive. You could, theoretically, either metaphysically remove the mark and hold it in some alchemical substance, or you can remove the skin with the mark and hold it alive in a nutritional goo. "Before you there is a great machine. pistons and chambers. It has vats of coloured liquids, dials with draconic caracters, and gauges of all types. On one side you see a capsule that contains an ancient desiccated corpse. As you approach, everything appears overwhlemingly complex. Right in the middle, you can see one translucent jar. Inside you see a shapeless black mass floating. The brownian motion turns it in the gel, and you can see that it is a dragonmark -- the Siberys Mark of Shadow." Without knowing what this is for, the PC's will likely not attempt to destroy the machine itself. _____________________ I don't like your proposal for a couple reasons. First, if there was a saboteur involved, why didn't he just not sacrifice himself or tell others where the machines were so they could deal with it after the sacrifice? After the sacrifice with no serious guards, his allies could invade and destroy the machines. Also, the result of a failed effort by the PC's is actually very devasatating to your world. If the Dragonmarks start disappearing, the entire power structure begins to break down. For me, that wouldn't be a terrible thing: I play the Houses as just glorified guilds, so they are not as powerful as a lot of others play them. But the important thing is the PC's can't necessarily restore the status quo just by killing the dragons with the marks. If the eldritch machine affects the entire world, it would take another eldritch machine to restore the status quo. Also, the fact that 12 dragons sacrifice themselves for the dragonmarks can only happen within the last 3000 years. That means the dragons are fairly modern. Setting them back to before serious human incursion into Khorvaire means a significant culture shock for the awakeners. I'm also an engineer that designs things for a living. Making something run in reverse is not an easy thing to arrange, and usually impossible to hide. The devices required to reverse anything are identical to the devices required for running forward. Sometimes it can be as small as a couple gears, but the drivetrain of a vehicle is the single most complex engineering job in the entire car. For an electrical device, a complex algorithm has to be developed and turned into hardware, and controlling the direction adds a control pin that anyone using it can see. Anything capable fo reversing a machine would be noticed and discussed when spotted, especially in design by committee like this Eldritch Machine is. I also don't like ddragons sacrificing themselves for a Prophecy or not. They sacrifice themselves for the end result of what is prophesied. If they personally are not going to gain from the Prophecy's prediction, why sacrifice yourself? It's the Prophecy, so someone else will do it. I try to ensure there is at least some small selfishness in the activities of all of my characters. This doesn't seem to have any of that enlightened self interest most intelligent beings adhere to. Also, The villain dragon is going to use the machine to undo their sacrifice in an attempt to wrest "control" of the dragonmarks away from the "lesser" races. requires a machine of a much greater scope than I have been discussing. It needs to be big enough to affect everyone in a world, which means it's on the scale of the Giant's machine that thrust Dal Quor away. Anything World affecting that goes slightly wrong affects the entire world in the wrong way. The scope of a failure in your machine is world class, potentially affecting everyone. A smaller scoped machine causes problems on a smaller scale. If the machine affects an individual then when it fails, the error is fed only into that one individual. If it affects a wider target area, well, that's DM preference, but I've never liked it. I've always treated energy as enrgy, be it mundane or magical, so unless a power surge was caused, it can only affect something as big as it's got energy for. And, it's complex. Complex falls apart to the simplest external influences. Simple means it's harder to break. The fewer moving parts the more robust the design is, and that counts for machines and plots. Anyway, it is your group, so you know better what they'll accept.
Sereno 06-16-06, 09:39 AM	Actually, I didn't mess up. You mentioned Stasis, so I used it. The 12 entered stasis in, say, -2700 (didn't have teh timeline at work so couldn't use numbers). They had captured Hospitality, Shadow, Death, Healing, and Scribing by this time, and these people are also being held in stasis. (That gives us Death, allowing us to surprise the characters by making one of the other Marks the 13th. It pays not to be predictable.) The more I think about it, the less I want this plot tied to the 12 (13) Dragonmarks ... that's making it get too big and, I think, too obtuse for my players to be able to figure out. I'd probably have to tell them, through an NPC, what the deal was and in that case I'm just writing a story for them to walk through instead of being able to find out what's really going on. I like the use of 13-1 ... twelve dragonmark-like symbols around the world and the machine being the key. I don't like your proposal for a couple reasons. First, if there was a saboteur involved, why didn't he just not sacrifice himself or tell others where the machines were so they could deal with it after the sacrifice? After the sacrifice with no serious guards, his allies could invade and destroy the machines. I could think of a lot of reasons ... maybe he got caught and killed before he could reveal the location of the primary machine. Also, the result of a failed effort by the PC's is actually very devasatating to your world. If the Dragonmarks start disappearing, the entire power structure begins to break down. For me, that wouldn't be a terrible thing: I play the Houses as just glorified guilds, so they are not as powerful as a lot of others play them. But the important thing is the PC's can't necessarily restore the status quo just by killing the dragons with the marks. If the eldritch machine affects the entire world, it would take another eldritch machine to restore the status quo. Yeah ... i'm not completely comfortable with that big a change, either. I want it to be dramatic, but not world-shaking. I'm still thinking about what would make a good "big picture," here. Also, the fact that 12 dragons sacrifice themselves for the dragonmarks can only happen within the last 3000 years. That means the dragons are fairly modern. Setting them back to before serious human incursion into Khorvaire means a significant culture shock for the awakeners. True, but that will explain their rage and confusion when they ARE awakened. I'm also an engineer that designs things for a living. Making something run in reverse is not an easy thing to arrange, and usually impossible to hide. The devices required to reverse anything are identical to the devices required for running forward. Sometimes it can be as small as a couple gears, but the drivetrain of a vehicle is the single most complex engineering job in the entire car. For an electrical device, a complex algorithm has to be developed and turned into hardware, and controlling the direction adds a control pin that anyone using it can see. Anything capable fo reversing a machine would be noticed and discussed when spotted, especially in design by committee like this Eldritch Machine is. I agree ... but neither of us has ever worked with magic. It's not about the gears and pulleys ... it's really about the flow of magic. Reversing the flow of magic might be as easy as swapping the symbols for Syberis and Khyber. I also don't like ddragons sacrificing themselves for a Prophecy or not. They sacrifice themselves for the end result of what is prophesied. If they personally are not going to gain from the Prophecy's prediction, why sacrifice yourself? It's the Prophecy, so someone else will do it. I try to ensure there is at least some small selfishness in the activities of all of my characters. This doesn't seem to have any of that enlightened self interest most intelligent beings adhere to. People often sacrifice themselves for what they've believe is a greater good. The dragons could be the same. Perhaps this particular group was fanatic about a particular part of the Prophesy and believed that only their blood could make sure it happened the way it was "supposed" to happen. The rest of the dragons think they're nuts ... but they were committed to the ultimate level! And, it's complex. Complex falls apart to the simplest external influences. Simple means it's harder to break. The fewer moving parts the more robust the design is, and that counts for machines and plots. I really like the idea of one machine summoning "the Dragonflight." But, the purpose of the Dragonflight should be specific in scope and world-level impact. Maybe, they were put into stasis in the past with the knowledge that sometime in the future, as dictated by the Prophesy, they would be needed to destroy something(s). Now, the things they were going to destroy have been built over by "lesser" races. One could be Sharn. Another could be Flamekeep....
Kreistor1 06-16-06, 10:50 AM	People often sacrifice themselves for what they've believe is a greater good. Not quite true. People sacrifice themselves most often for personal salvation or trading their lives for someone else's. Sacrificing for an unknown end is the purview of the insane. People that willingly die do so for specific reasons. Some religions in the Americas had willing victims because they believed the gods needed to be appeased and blood was the only suitable sacrifice. The goal there is to prevent disasterous reprisals that will kill hundreds. Dying for the "greater good" is no use unless you achieve a greater good. The more I think about it, the less I want this plot tied to the 12 (13) Dragonmarks ... that's making it get too big and, I think, too obtuse for my players to be able to figure out. Yes, it does depend on the presence of Dragonmarks in your campaign. My plaers know an NPC in Tharashk, but hardly view Dragonmarks as powerful. My guys are smashing ogres in two blows: there's no Dragonmark that lets you do that. I like the use of 13-1 ... twelve dragonmark-like symbols around the world and the machine being the key. That's fine, but you're going to have to figure out that next layer of the puzzle. How do those 12 symbols reveal the 13th location? You could stick that back into the painting, but it's starting to look a little busy with all of the other clues already there. The symbols need to somehow tie together and open the next layer of the puzzle. I could think of a lot of reasons ... maybe he got caught and killed before he could reveal the location of the primary machine. My point is more along the lines of "You need to tie up all the loose ends." If there's a reason, make certain it can be discovered by the Players, or they'll be asking the same confused questions that I did. Yeah ... i'm not completely comfortable with that big a change, either. I want it to be dramatic, but not world-shaking. I'm still thinking about what would make a good "big picture," here. Remember, what the villain is trying to do and what he is really doing do not have to be the same. You can have a grandiose, over-the-top Big Picture that the villain thinks he's working on. Your problem is actually, "What do I really want to happen?" Grandiose schemes are easy: you can steal those from classic villainy. They don't have to make a lot of sense if they aren't going to succeed and the villain is a little obsessive. What actually happens, though, depends on your scope. You're talking abotu them destroying Sharn. Well, that's not going to be something the PC's can do anything about. 12 dragons screaming down on Sharn is going to be too much firepower for the PC's alone. Whatever the result, it needs to be something the PC's can deal with, or they will feel like they failed when the destruction is unleashed. I agree ... but neither of us has ever worked with magic. Haven't I? 15 years later, one of my old high school friends asked me, "Chris, what do you do, and try to keep it simple enough that I can understand it." To her, I do magic on a daily basis. That I think it's mundane doesn't make it any less wondrous to others. Allowing yourself to do anything you want with magic is just another word for Deus Ex Machina. As a player, I always found that kind of "Anything goes" magic to be unsatisfying. I really like the idea of one machine summoning "the Dragonflight." I don't know how you run your Prophecy, but mine is never so specific as to mention individuals. The Prophecy is more how things will be, not how to shape the future. For instance, in my previous write-up, the Prophecy would be something like, "When the dragons capture the marks, the marked bend knee." That causes these dragons to start looking for a way to steal the dragonmarks. It doesn't tell them how to do it, it just tells them the end result for a particular action. Note that this prophecy has an inherent reversal. It may be the dragons bending knee, since they are now marked, too, but that plays to the dragons' sense of pride... they can't imagine that it would be themselves becoming enslaved, it would have to be the lesser races because, well, they're lesser. It wouldn't be so specific as "12 dragons need to build a machine and go into stasis so that they can destroy X in year Y." For me, Prophecy is never so cut and dry... it is inherently risky to follow. But, the purpose of the Dragonflight should be specific in scope and world-level impact. Yes and no. What you want to actually happen needs to be specific. What they are trying to achieve does not need to be. That's why I turned to Aberrant Marks on Dragons as the final result. It would create dragons that the party could hunt down, wouldn't work together to a cohesive end, and would be rejected by their own culture. The PC's, having interfered with the plot, created a managable evil. Some of the dragons themselves may kill each other in their self-loathing, bringing the number of dragons down to a managable number (4-5). Part of your problem right now, I think, is that you're looking for an event that the dragons would be willing to risk their lives for but won't be greatly harmful to your world. I don't think that's going to work out well. I think you need to separate it into compnent parts. What are they trying to do, what are they actually doing, and what will the final result be. Instead of one event with multiple restrictions to limit it, you've got three events with only small restrictions on them.
Sereno 06-16-06, 11:34 AM	Not quite true. People sacrifice themselves most often for personal salvation or trading their lives for someone else's. Sacrificing for an unknown end is the purview of the insane. People that willingly die do so for specific reasons. Some religions in the Americas had willing victims because they believed the gods needed to be appeased and blood was the only suitable sacrifice. The goal there is to prevent disasterous reprisals that will kill hundreds. Dying for the "greater good" is no use unless you achieve a greater good. That's my point ... that particular group of dragons believed exactly that. They didn't think it was an "unknown end". Without their sacrifice, a very important part of the Prophesy couldn't come true. They might be wrong, but they believed it completely. But, in any case, I'm now leaning away from the sacrifice idea and more towards the stasis idea. That's fine, but you're going to have to figure out that next layer of the puzzle. How do those 12 symbols reveal the 13th location? You could stick that back into the painting, but it's starting to look a little busy with all of the other clues already there. The symbols need to somehow tie together and open the next layer of the puzzle. I was going to go simpler. The thirteenth location is already the machine ... there's no painting or key for it. The villain dragon discovered the machine and found out about the 12 paintings from clues left behind in the area of the machine that he has since destroyed. Luckily, some other members of the Chamber learned some of the same information and have been debating it while the villain dragon is forging ahead in his (possibly unreasonable) certainty. The players won't have to figure out the 13-1 ... they'll just have to deal with decoding some of the paintings. Remember, what the villain is trying to do and what he is really doing do not have to be the same. You can have a grandiose, over-the-top Big Picture that the villain thinks he's working on. Your problem is actually, "What do I really want to happen?" Grandiose schemes are easy: you can steal those from classic villainy. They don't have to make a lot of sense if they aren't going to succeed and the villain is a little obsessive. But, I'm also afraid if the grandiose plan isn't really grandiose in reality, they players will feel let down. If they fail to stop the machine from activating and all that happens is that it goes "parp!" they're going to be pretty ******. :) If they fail to activate it, a bunch of dragons will be released. That's pretty big. But, in the end, still possible to deal with. Maybe, they can be reasoned with. Maybe, they can be killed (more likely). Maybe, they can be recaptured by some other feature of the machine. What actually happens, though, depends on your scope. You're talking abotu them destroying Sharn. Well, that's not going to be something the PC's can do anything about. 12 dragons screaming down on Sharn is going to be too much firepower for the PC's alone. Maybe they're not going to actually destroy Sharn, but something specific beneath it. Perhaps, the PCs can actually turn the tide by helping the dragons accomplish their tasks without wholesale destruction. A nice twist would be that they need to destroy the symbols that the PCs used to release them. They would definately be able to help the dragons, as they'd have first hand experience of several of the sites! Dragons are really smart, even younger ones, and there's no need for them to just rage and smash when they can accomplish their task without tons of collateral damage. One of the things I was thinking of is that each dragon has one special ability (not normal for dragons) that is necessary to do the deed it was put into stasis to do. Haven't I? 15 years later, one of my old high school friends asked me, "Chris, what do you do, and try to keep it simple enough that I can understand it." To her, I do magic on a daily basis. That I think it's mundane doesn't make it any less wondrous to others. True, but another engineer with your experience could look at your work and explain it easily. Just like there is very little computer code I couldn't look at and at least understand what it does. Regardless of how "magical" any earthly technology is, nothing either of us has ever worked on compares to summoning a 40-foot ball of fire with words and a pinch of sulfur mixed with bat dung! :) Allowing yourself to do anything you want with magic is just another word for Deus Ex Machina. As a player, I always found that kind of "Anything goes" magic to be unsatisfying. But, that's the whole point of the Eldritch Machine in the first place ... a way to explain magic at the plot-level; magic that's too big to fit into an existing spell. I don't know how you run your Prophecy, but mine is never so specific as to mention individuals. The Prophecy is more how things will be, not how to shape the future. It's not cut and dried, nor really about the specifics. I see the dragons looking at/for events that must occur, or must not occur, for the Prophesy to be fullfulled. They argue about what needs to happen. I doubt many dragons will agree; they're super-intelligent and super-powerful, but they're also arrogant. They could have interpreted something like the following, "At a time when (something that seems to happening now) these tweleve corruptions (list the things to be destroyed) must be cleansed." The dragons figured out what the corruptions are, and found other dragons who were capable of handling them. Perhaps the "special ability" is transient in nature ... if they don't use it within a week, a month, a year ... it will be lost. Thus, the stasis. Other dragons disagree, they thing that "cleansed" is actually misinterpreted and should be "protected." Part of your problem right now, I think, is that you're looking for an event that the dragons would be willing to risk their lives for but won't be greatly harmful to your world. I don't think that's going to work out well. I think you need to separate it into compnent parts. What are they trying to do, what are they actually doing, and what will the final result be. Instead of one event with multiple restrictions to limit it, you've got three events with only small restrictions on them. I'm thinking of going down this route: 1) follow the wake of destruction following the first painting to make the PCs aware of the villain dragon ... get them to hate him. 2) introduce either Flamewind or the "good" dragon to help them learn more about the other paintings. 3) have them find the Eldritch Machine, learn a little more. 4) decode the paintings, get the missing symbols, tangle with the villain dragon and his minions. 5) depending on success of 4, activate the machine for the benefit of the "good" dragon or try to stop the activation by the bad dragon. 6) if the outcome of 5 is activate the machine for the good dragon or thwarting the villain dragon, deal with the fallout and the villain dragon's rage ... probably fight and kill him. If the outcome of 5 is unsuccessful in stopping the villain dragon, continue. 7) witness the operation of the machine in full. 8) deal with the fallout of the returned dragons, maybe not all at once. Maybe they come back one-a-month for 12 months! I like the idea that the twist is that the PCs actually end up helping the dragons to prevent as much damage as possible. 9) also deal with the fallout of the "good" dragon being disappointed.
Kreistor1 06-16-06, 02:09 PM	Regardless of how "magical" any earthly technology is, nothing either of us has ever worked on compares to summoning a 40-foot ball of fire with words and a pinch of sulfur mixed with bat dung! And what have you used a little silicon and lead to achieve? Part of your problem right now, I think, That comment had more to do with your lack of ability to lock down motivation for the dragons, not motivation for the PC's. I think you're locking up unable to progress because you're trying to create a motivation that causes too many varying events. You need the Dragonflight's motivation to cause them to do something drastic, the villain to want to do something evil, the PC's want to stop that evil, and not allow it to be so great that the world will be significantly changed. I see too many competing requirements, which pretty much rejects all of your good ideas. I think you need to disconnect some of them by adding layers of intrigue so that some of the events occur based on lies/untruths. By removing the Villlain's motivation to achieve something (and basing it on a lie) and allowing that to remove the PC's motivation (they're trying to stop the villain's false motivation), then the Dragonflight's motivation need only result in a relatively benign conclusion. It was the villain that was wrong, so teh Dragonflight's motivation simplifies. I have no problem with the basic PC run through. THat works fine. It's your baseline motivation that you're locked up on, so that's where you need to mess around a little bit.
Sereno 06-16-06, 04:21 PM	And what have you used a little silicon and lead to achieve? True enough it's fascinating, but I still can't see electrons flowing through a semi-conductor as being on the same scale of "magic" as, say, a Chain Lightning or a Dimensional Anchor or a Teleport. That comment had more to do with your lack of ability to lock down motivation for the dragons, not motivation for the PC's. I think you're locking up unable to progress because you're trying to create a motivation that causes too many varying events. You need the Dragonflight's motivation to cause them to do something drastic, the villain to want to do something evil, the PC's want to stop that evil, and not allow it to be so great that the world will be significantly changed. I see too many competing requirements, which pretty much rejects all of your good ideas. I think you need to disconnect some of them by adding layers of intrigue so that some of the events occur based on lies/untruths. By removing the Villlain's motivation to achieve something (and basing it on a lie) and allowing that to remove the PC's motivation (they're trying to stop the villain's false motivation), then the Dragonflight's motivation need only result in a relatively benign conclusion. It was the villain that was wrong, so teh Dragonflight's motivation simplifies. I have no problem with the basic PC run through. THat works fine. It's your baseline motivation that you're locked up on, so that's where you need to mess around a little bit. I'm closer to working it out, now ... the elimination/protection of the land-bound dragonmarks is the purpose of the Dragonflight/Opposition. The villain believes in the Dragonflight. The "good" dragon doesn't. The PCs will naturally side with the "good" dragon, at first ... but might come to believe the villain. Either way, they're going to make an enemy ... which is cool. Neither the villain or the good dragon are going to be very powerful (lots of resources, sure, but CR-wise, not much tougher than the party) -- that will prevent the PCs from being "along for the ride" while vastly powerful dragons fight over their heads. I just need a reason why the "good" dragons didn't just destroy the machine while the Dragonflight were waiting for "their time".... Perhaps destroying the machine would kill the Dragonflight and the "good" dragons don't want that, either. They merely want to stop it from functioning, not kill their brothers/sisters.... Still thinking on this.... :)
Sereno 06-18-06, 03:49 PM	I think I've got a decent explanation, now. The disbelievers (the "good" dragon's faction) only found out about the machine too late to stop its creation. They also learned that running the machine would cause it's destruction so it can only run once. If the machine is simply destroyed, it would kill the dragons in stasis ... and they don't want to murder 12 dragons when all they have to do is prevent the machine from running at the "right time." Since they didn't think they could stop it, they did manage to sneak an agent into the cabal that were believers (the villain dragon's faction) who added one additional safeguard, manipulating the machine so that running it in reverse would cause the 12 dragons to be brought out of stasis, but slowly, so they'd still miss the important time. The "good" dragons either want the machine to not run at all (unlikely with the "villain dragon" working so hard) or to be run backwards. The villain dragon just wants the machine to run correctly. The PCs are stuck in the middle and there's fallout either way! :)
Kreistor1 06-21-06, 05:13 PM	Don't forget to tell me how it turns out. Good luck!
Sereno 06-22-06, 07:53 AM	I've still got a lot of work to do before they can even begin to unravel the whole plot. Thanks for all your help! I'll probably post the whole thing here (or on Arganis' Adventure "contest" thread) when I'm done. I'll be sure to give you credit for your great ideas!