Help! My monk is killing my NPCs! [Archive] - Wizards Community

Help! My monk is killing my NPCs! [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Ch@pel
11-14-04, 09:00 PM I have a Shifter monk in my group, and he's wreaking (rules-legal, as far as I can tell) havoc on my monsters and NPCs. He's got a pretty good str (+3 or +4), the artificer buffs him with BS most of the time, and he's taking improved trip next level.

He trips just about everything, and as soon as he does, combat is pretty much over. He gets the free attack after the trip and if the NPC tries to get up, he takes the AoO to trip them again, and attack AGAIN. Its like an infinite loop.

Anyone have any good strategies for beating this? I know there are ways to do it, like use some long range magic, four-legged creatures and such, but I really want something that I can just rub in his face. I'll probably have some monks just use the same thing against him once in a while. Humiliation is the key here. :)
Magagumo
11-14-04, 09:12 PM Well, if this helps- the AoO to stand up cannot be used to re-trip them (They are considered prone when the AoO is taken, so they cannot be made more prone). Thus, the AoO hits, deals damage, and now they're standing. Tripping is amazing, but its not an endless loop.

This helps a bit I hope, though I'm curious how the monk is hitting so consistently? (at low levels, misses are common and monks don't tend to hit as well as say the fighter or barbarian)
Pinky's brain
11-14-04, 09:20 PM They can just tumble 5 feet away before standing up ya know (DC20). Assuming they survive the round they were tripped in of course. Reach weapons also help, both before and after they stand up.
Gurv
11-14-04, 09:24 PM I dealt with the same problem from a ranger's wolf companion, until I realized what Magagumo said was true: since the AoO occurs before the action that provokes it, the person provoking it hasn't yet stood up and therefore cannot be tripped.

Other options include not getting back up. Attacking from prone incurs a -4 penalty, but that might be better than taking an AoO if you're already hurting.

An great feat is Prone Atack from the Complete Warrior. It negates the penalty for attacking from prone and if you succeed on such an attack allows you to regain your feet as a free action.
gijoel
11-14-04, 10:06 PM four legs (or more) good. Two legs not so good.

plus give them size bonuses.

Can you say umberhulk kiddies. :schemes:
DarkFlite
11-14-04, 11:02 PM Using several less poerful attackers would limit the usefulness of the trip.
N'wah
11-14-04, 11:12 PM You know, I've tried pulling the DM trick where you bring in a monster whose sole purpose is attampting to defeat a PC's signature tactic, and a lot of them end in failure. For example, during an Underdark expedition, I threw thew PCs into a battle with an umber hulk, hoping to make him a challenge for the party's half-dragon cleric. the umber hulk had to overrun the ranks of the rest of the PCs, which it accomplished easily... until it rolled a 2 on the opposed Strength check against the gnome bard, whose roll was somewhere in the neighborhood of 20. So basically, the umber hulk stopped in front of the half-dragon, who used her greatsword to make everyone delicious umber hulk burgers.

Now, since your shifter monk's favorite attack is technically not legal, the problem probably won't come up, and if you want to, a Large or larger four-legged creature with a phenomenal strength will do the trick. Just be warned: sometimes the dice don't play along.
RadicalTaoist
11-14-04, 11:59 PM Weak, Small, numerous NPC foes with the Prone Attack and Swarmfighting feats. Trip THIS.
Setherial
11-15-04, 03:11 AM I really don't see the problem. I've noticed people posting simular problems, DM's asking for help because the party they DM is too strong ??
I wander if they are playing the same dnd I'm playing because with the 3 monster manuals alone not to talk about many other monster collections out there and the option to advance monsters by HD or class level, any DM should be able to adjust encounters to challenge his players.
Ok sometimes things don't turn out the way you had expected them to but you learn, you adapt and you make sure the next fight won't be this easy.

Usually at the start of a new adventure and a new crew of player characters I have a few easy battles just to test my players weaknessess and strengths. After that I pretty much know how to handle them.

The only pointers I can give are, if you are following a book with premade adventure don't follow it too closely. A challenge rating is but a guideline and isn't equal for any given party.
Opponents who are alone against a party are pretty much screwed unless they overpower the players in which case the party is likely to take heavy casualties and has to flee.
It is better to pitch groups against groups, the more divers the deadlier. Unless you encounter a solitary animal or monster most villians have helpers to defend them.

To adress your particular case there must be ways to hold back that monk. Single him out and attack him with multiple opponents. Cast spells at him like hold person, paralize, ghoul touch, dominate person, darkness (targetted on him), slow, ...
Attack from the air, or at sea from the water. Invisible opponents, blinking opponents, etherial opponents...
Save-vs-DM
11-15-04, 03:31 AM As well as the aformentioned tactics (the ruling that you can't trip on the AoO is absolutely correct) talk to your player. Tell him that his tactic is lessening the fun and challenge for everyone. You'd be surprised how often this works.

But, failing that, try this: a hoard of kobold warriors with swarmfighting - have all of them that are able use the aid another action on one of the kobolds - it'll hit (assuming the monk is surrounded that's a +14 to hit if they all make their aid another action). Better yet, give them all crossbows and have them aid another from a distance.

Cheers,
SvD
My Lego
11-15-04, 04:42 AM I feel I must answer to this one. The problem usually isn't that the group is to powerful. It's usually one character that dominates the group and gets all the attention. There is also a problem if every encounter has to be tailored to counter this character in witch case s/he would feel unfairly targeted. Basically every encounter can’t be swarm fighting kobolds :).

Tripping is the most common source of problem characters (as defined above) and the solutions should focus on trip attacks first. On thing that our group has implemented and that has worked very well is not allowing special attacks as AoO. That means no tripping, bullrushing and overrunning as an AoO. That simple rule effectively removes a whole slew of problem PC/NPC’s like the spiked chain/combat reflexes PC with clones etc. Try this at home and get a less disruptive game.
:cool:
Brastan
11-15-04, 05:24 AM Bug'um out. Use real Swarms which cannot be tripped, also tripping doesn't work well against opponents who specialize in agility. Its the touch AC that you have to look at. Any creature that has a high touch AC will work, just watch to see that it does not get flatfooted. Also bigger creatures will be problematic especially ones with multiple limbs.

When I play I have a Warforged Artificer who trips with a Halberd. His combat goes like this, buff Elf Paladin, run after and buff Fighter, watch for oppenent with high AC but low agility, move to trip, let fighter and Paladin bash and hack it to bits while its down, move way. I won't go after big creatures, things with multiple limbs, or fast things. Even Large creatures give me pause. I will most likely run from something that's fast, big and has multiple limbs

Skim through the MM and look for high touch AC monsters. It may add a little verity.
Argonel
11-15-04, 10:29 AM Acidic slimes seem to me to be a tailor made anti-monk monster. It deal damage to anyone attacking barehanded and it can't be tripped since it's an amorphous blob. Using something like this would a good way to push the monk into the background for a battle and then discuss the amount of tripping with the monk. Also opponents with high strength or dexterity can resist the trip and counter it.
Alexius D'Cannith
11-15-04, 11:50 AM ahem

Pixie Barbarian, barbarian so huge hp and bab, pixie, it flies and cant be tripped

nuff said,
LazarusX
11-15-04, 02:41 PM ahem

Pixie Barbarian, barbarian so huge hp and bab, pixie, it flies and cant be tripped

nuff said,

LOL ....i just had the mental image of Tinkerbell on her period going ape-sh!+ on Peter Pan...

Oh god, the images!!! :banghead:

i need help :surrender
(Psi)SeveredHead
11-15-04, 07:48 PM What level are your characters? Did you make sure bull's strength and a Strength-boosting magic item don't stack?
Ch@pel
11-15-04, 08:14 PM Thanks everybody for the great tips. To clarify, I didn't think this was broken (although, now I see it was a little bit), it wasn't ruining anyone's fun, and I certainly wasn't trying to rob him of a key part of his character build, I just wanted to mess with him a little bit.

About the ruling where they can't take an AoO to trip someone, where does it say this? This guy is teensy bit of a rules lawyer, which I don't mind really (it doesn't get in the way of the game really, and he's pretty good about just letting stuff go even if I'm wrong) so I want to have my ducks in a row.

Also, where does it say you can tumble 5 ft while prone? THAT would really be something.

He also makes great use of grapple. Say your grappling something like a displacer beast, does that negate the % miss chance while you're grappling? Also, say he's grappling a baddie. On the baddie's turn, he breaks the grapple and moves away. Can he take an AoO to grapple him again, preventing him from getting away?
Pinky's brain
11-15-04, 10:00 PM The tumbling isnt really core ... but it is on wizards.com

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040622a

The no trip on AoO rule is in the main FAQ, wasnt there a feat which lets you stop movement after hittin on an AoO though? :) (Stand still from XPH.) AoO can always be used for a grapple attempt though AFAICS.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ch@pel 11-14-04, 09:00 PM	I have a Shifter monk in my group, and he's wreaking (rules-legal, as far as I can tell) havoc on my monsters and NPCs. He's got a pretty good str (+3 or +4), the artificer buffs him with BS most of the time, and he's taking improved trip next level. He trips just about everything, and as soon as he does, combat is pretty much over. He gets the free attack after the trip and if the NPC tries to get up, he takes the AoO to trip them again, and attack AGAIN. Its like an infinite loop. Anyone have any good strategies for beating this? I know there are ways to do it, like use some long range magic, four-legged creatures and such, but I really want something that I can just rub in his face. I'll probably have some monks just use the same thing against him once in a while. Humiliation is the key here. :)
Magagumo 11-14-04, 09:12 PM	Well, if this helps- the AoO to stand up cannot be used to re-trip them (They are considered prone when the AoO is taken, so they cannot be made more prone). Thus, the AoO hits, deals damage, and now they're standing. Tripping is amazing, but its not an endless loop. This helps a bit I hope, though I'm curious how the monk is hitting so consistently? (at low levels, misses are common and monks don't tend to hit as well as say the fighter or barbarian)
Pinky's brain 11-14-04, 09:20 PM	They can just tumble 5 feet away before standing up ya know (DC20). Assuming they survive the round they were tripped in of course. Reach weapons also help, both before and after they stand up.
Gurv 11-14-04, 09:24 PM	I dealt with the same problem from a ranger's wolf companion, until I realized what Magagumo said was true: since the AoO occurs before the action that provokes it, the person provoking it hasn't yet stood up and therefore cannot be tripped. Other options include not getting back up. Attacking from prone incurs a -4 penalty, but that might be better than taking an AoO if you're already hurting. An great feat is Prone Atack from the Complete Warrior. It negates the penalty for attacking from prone and if you succeed on such an attack allows you to regain your feet as a free action.
gijoel 11-14-04, 10:06 PM	four legs (or more) good. Two legs not so good. plus give them size bonuses. Can you say umberhulk kiddies. :schemes:
DarkFlite 11-14-04, 11:02 PM	Using several less poerful attackers would limit the usefulness of the trip.
N'wah 11-14-04, 11:12 PM	You know, I've tried pulling the DM trick where you bring in a monster whose sole purpose is attampting to defeat a PC's signature tactic, and a lot of them end in failure. For example, during an Underdark expedition, I threw thew PCs into a battle with an umber hulk, hoping to make him a challenge for the party's half-dragon cleric. the umber hulk had to overrun the ranks of the rest of the PCs, which it accomplished easily... until it rolled a 2 on the opposed Strength check against the gnome bard, whose roll was somewhere in the neighborhood of 20. So basically, the umber hulk stopped in front of the half-dragon, who used her greatsword to make everyone delicious umber hulk burgers. Now, since your shifter monk's favorite attack is technically not legal, the problem probably won't come up, and if you want to, a Large or larger four-legged creature with a phenomenal strength will do the trick. Just be warned: sometimes the dice don't play along.
RadicalTaoist 11-14-04, 11:59 PM	Weak, Small, numerous NPC foes with the Prone Attack and Swarmfighting feats. Trip THIS.
Setherial 11-15-04, 03:11 AM	I really don't see the problem. I've noticed people posting simular problems, DM's asking for help because the party they DM is too strong ?? I wander if they are playing the same dnd I'm playing because with the 3 monster manuals alone not to talk about many other monster collections out there and the option to advance monsters by HD or class level, any DM should be able to adjust encounters to challenge his players. Ok sometimes things don't turn out the way you had expected them to but you learn, you adapt and you make sure the next fight won't be this easy. Usually at the start of a new adventure and a new crew of player characters I have a few easy battles just to test my players weaknessess and strengths. After that I pretty much know how to handle them. The only pointers I can give are, if you are following a book with premade adventure don't follow it too closely. A challenge rating is but a guideline and isn't equal for any given party. Opponents who are alone against a party are pretty much screwed unless they overpower the players in which case the party is likely to take heavy casualties and has to flee. It is better to pitch groups against groups, the more divers the deadlier. Unless you encounter a solitary animal or monster most villians have helpers to defend them. To adress your particular case there must be ways to hold back that monk. Single him out and attack him with multiple opponents. Cast spells at him like hold person, paralize, ghoul touch, dominate person, darkness (targetted on him), slow, ... Attack from the air, or at sea from the water. Invisible opponents, blinking opponents, etherial opponents...
Save-vs-DM 11-15-04, 03:31 AM	As well as the aformentioned tactics (the ruling that you can't trip on the AoO is absolutely correct) talk to your player. Tell him that his tactic is lessening the fun and challenge for everyone. You'd be surprised how often this works. But, failing that, try this: a hoard of kobold warriors with swarmfighting - have all of them that are able use the aid another action on one of the kobolds - it'll hit (assuming the monk is surrounded that's a +14 to hit if they all make their aid another action). Better yet, give them all crossbows and have them aid another from a distance. Cheers, SvD
My Lego 11-15-04, 04:42 AM	I feel I must answer to this one. The problem usually isn't that the group is to powerful. It's usually one character that dominates the group and gets all the attention. There is also a problem if every encounter has to be tailored to counter this character in witch case s/he would feel unfairly targeted. Basically every encounter can’t be swarm fighting kobolds :). Tripping is the most common source of problem characters (as defined above) and the solutions should focus on trip attacks first. On thing that our group has implemented and that has worked very well is not allowing special attacks as AoO. That means no tripping, bullrushing and overrunning as an AoO. That simple rule effectively removes a whole slew of problem PC/NPC’s like the spiked chain/combat reflexes PC with clones etc. Try this at home and get a less disruptive game. :cool:
Brastan 11-15-04, 05:24 AM	Bug'um out. Use real Swarms which cannot be tripped, also tripping doesn't work well against opponents who specialize in agility. Its the touch AC that you have to look at. Any creature that has a high touch AC will work, just watch to see that it does not get flatfooted. Also bigger creatures will be problematic especially ones with multiple limbs. When I play I have a Warforged Artificer who trips with a Halberd. His combat goes like this, buff Elf Paladin, run after and buff Fighter, watch for oppenent with high AC but low agility, move to trip, let fighter and Paladin bash and hack it to bits while its down, move way. I won't go after big creatures, things with multiple limbs, or fast things. Even Large creatures give me pause. I will most likely run from something that's fast, big and has multiple limbs Skim through the MM and look for high touch AC monsters. It may add a little verity.
Argonel 11-15-04, 10:29 AM	Acidic slimes seem to me to be a tailor made anti-monk monster. It deal damage to anyone attacking barehanded and it can't be tripped since it's an amorphous blob. Using something like this would a good way to push the monk into the background for a battle and then discuss the amount of tripping with the monk. Also opponents with high strength or dexterity can resist the trip and counter it.
Alexius D'Cannith 11-15-04, 11:50 AM	ahem Pixie Barbarian, barbarian so huge hp and bab, pixie, it flies and cant be tripped nuff said,
LazarusX 11-15-04, 02:41 PM	ahem Pixie Barbarian, barbarian so huge hp and bab, pixie, it flies and cant be tripped nuff said, LOL ....i just had the mental image of Tinkerbell on her period going ape-sh!+ on Peter Pan... Oh god, the images!!! :banghead: i need help :surrender
(Psi)SeveredHead 11-15-04, 07:48 PM	What level are your characters? Did you make sure bull's strength and a Strength-boosting magic item don't stack?
Ch@pel 11-15-04, 08:14 PM	Thanks everybody for the great tips. To clarify, I didn't think this was broken (although, now I see it was a little bit), it wasn't ruining anyone's fun, and I certainly wasn't trying to rob him of a key part of his character build, I just wanted to mess with him a little bit. About the ruling where they can't take an AoO to trip someone, where does it say this? This guy is teensy bit of a rules lawyer, which I don't mind really (it doesn't get in the way of the game really, and he's pretty good about just letting stuff go even if I'm wrong) so I want to have my ducks in a row. Also, where does it say you can tumble 5 ft while prone? THAT would really be something. He also makes great use of grapple. Say your grappling something like a displacer beast, does that negate the % miss chance while you're grappling? Also, say he's grappling a baddie. On the baddie's turn, he breaks the grapple and moves away. Can he take an AoO to grapple him again, preventing him from getting away?
Pinky's brain 11-15-04, 10:00 PM	The tumbling isnt really core ... but it is on wizards.com http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040622a The no trip on AoO rule is in the main FAQ, wasnt there a feat which lets you stop movement after hittin on an AoO though? :) (Stand still from XPH.) AoO can always be used for a grapple attempt though AFAICS.