Post/Author/DateTime	Post
MaplessManiac620 11-09-04, 09:28 PM	Hello everyone, I posted this on the Char Op Board, but have gotten only 2 replies from other members, both of which were less than helpful. I've always like the concept of a street-wise brawler with investigative skills, the counterpart to the nature loving ranger who can Track a gobliniod over mountains and detect monsters by smell alone. With Sharn, City of Towers coming out soon, (now?) I think this is a perfect time to flesh out a character like this, as he fits perfectly within the setting. I'm pretty much allowed to use any book made by WoTC, even FR stuff, as you'll see. Here's the build as of now, with levels presented as taken: Urban Ranger 1/Human Paragon 2/Master Inquisitive 2/Shou Disciple 3/Justicar 10/Master Inquisitive 2 The only thing bothering me is that I couldnt fit the 3rd Human Paragon level in. I guess the +2 Ability wil be shadowed by items anyway. :shrug: Feats: Human: Jotunbrund Level 1: EWP(Spiked Chain) Flaw 1: Combat Expertise Flaw 2: Improved Trip Level 3: Improved Unarmed Strike Human Paragon 2: Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike) Master Inquisitive 2: Dodge (DM's allowing) Level 6: Skill Focus (Gather Information) Shou Disciple 2: Track (Agian, DM allowing) Level 9: Knockdown Level 12: Circle Kick (What are the pre-req's for this feat?) Level 15: Improved Natural Attack Level 18: (Level Feat) Combat Tactics (assuming I thought tis all out right): Hit with an Unarmed Strike ->Knockdown ->Improved Trip ->Free Attack (Grapple) ->Improved Hog Tie ->Circle Kick (Free attack against another threatened target) ->Knockdown ->Improved Trip ->Free Attack (Grapple) ->Improved Hog Tie. Hey, if I'm right, that means that after using only one attack, I can trip and hog tie 2 opponents! Gear: Gloves of Fearsome Grip (S&F) Magebane Manacles (AaEG) Steadfast Boots (AaEG) Hat of Anonymity (AaEG) Chain Enhancements: +1 Sure Striking (+1), Ghost Touch (+2), Metalline (+2), Vicious (+1), Wrathful Healing (+3) Spiked Chain. Would it be better to take 2 levels of Monk, then invest in a Fanged Ring and Monks Belt (and maybe Tattoo!) for the bigger Unarmed Damage? I also proposed this "Unarmed Combat Style" for the Urban Ranger: Urban Ranger Fighting Style 2nd: Improved Unarmed Strike, 1d6 Damage, Apparent Denense* 6th: Improved Grapple, 1d8 Unarmed Damage, Flurry -2 11th: Devestating Grapple**, 1d10 Unarmed Damage, Flurry +0 * The 2nd level ability as found in the Arcane Duelist PrC as found on the WoTC website. ** The 5th level ability as found in the Reaping Mauler PrC in Complete Warrior. If this style is accepted, how should I modify my build? Dropping the Shou Disciple levels are obvious, as well as the Human Paragon Levels, but that would get me nowhere near the 11th level Combat Mastery...and it also means I won't make Justicar 10. Hmmm... Comments, please?
ThanisKartaleon 11-10-04, 03:22 AM	Well, first of all, your attack won't work. Improved hog-tie does not give you a free attack, it just bumps hog-tie up so you don't need to pin first. However, you still need to initiate the grapple. However, I believe you can only grapple one opponent at a time. If you attempt to grapple 2 opponents, you take a -10 on each grapple check. When designing Ranger fighting styles, remember that they only get the benefits of a couple "virtual" feats, usable only in light or no armor iirc. Also, Devastating Grapple is an unwise choice for a high level ability. A lot of the creatures you face at that level will be immune to it, and it requires 3 full rounds holding the pin. Also, you obviously want to be part of the Sharn Watch or Guard... part of that is "bringing 'em back alive." So Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple, and Clever Wrestling would be what you get (I'd call this Brawler style), with no Apparent Defense or flurry, as those are both fairly powerful abilities. Heck, flurry is basically a monk's version of two-weapon fighting. I'd just go with the TWF style otherwise. What does Jotunbrund do, and where can I find it? Master Inquisitive does not give Dodge as a bonus feat, and I don't see why a DM would allow it. It does not fit the spirit of the class. I don't know where the Shou Disciple is from, though again I think a DM probably won't allow it. Circle Kick requires a Base Attack Bonus of +3, Improved Unarmed Strike, and Dex 15. It requires you to make a single attack with an unarmed strike as a full round action, and if you hit, you can make a second attack roll against a different opponent you threaten. I'm assuming you're using Improved Natural Attack with unarmed strike. You do need to do at least 10 points of damage with each unarmed strike to use Knock-down. Also, taking Sharn Inquisitive requires the Investigate feat. That all said, here's my suggestion: Human Urban Ranger2/Urban Druid1/Sharn Inquisitive2/Watch Detective4/Sharn Inquisitive5/Justicar 8 Must be Lawful Neutral and follow the Rule of Evidence. Urban Ranger is of course from Unearthed Arcana (for the benefit of others who read this thread) Urban Druid is from Dragon 317, a great issue to get, which includes an Eberron article on Shifters. Watch Detective is from Masters of the Wild Sharn Inquisitive is detailed in the Eberron Campaign Setting and the Justicar is in the Complete Warrior. Here's what your feats (including virtual feats) look like: Human: Investigate 1st: Track (Prereq. for Watch Detective & Justicar) 1st (Urban Ranger): Urban Tracking 2nd (Brawler Style): Improved Unarmed Strike 3rd: Skill Focus (Gather Information) (Prereq. for Justicar) 5th (Watch Detective): Combat Expertise 6th: Improved Trip 9th: Circle Kick 9th (Sharn Inquisitive): Improved Initiative 11th (Sharn Inquisitive): Recognize Impostor 12th: Improved Natural Attack (unarmed strike) 14th (Justicar): Improved Grapple 15th: Action Boost 15th (Justicar): Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Manacles) 18th: Knock-down Built from a 28 point buy, this guy would look like this: Str 13, Dex 14, Con 10, Int 15, Wis 12, Cha 11 Increase Wis at lvl 4 Increase Dex at lvl 8 (for Circle Kick) Increase Str at lvl 12 (Knock-down) Increase Str at lvl 16 (Knock-down) Increase Wis at lvl 20 And your skills will look like this: Bluff +10 (8 ranks (10 skill points), 0 Cha, 2 sacred Sharn) Diplomacy +15 (9 ranks (13 skill points), 0 Cha, 2 sacred Sharn, 4 synergy) Disguise +2 (0 ranks, 0 Cha, 2 synergy) Gather Information +36 (23 ranks, 0 Cha, 2 city sense, 2 sacred Sharn, 2 insight (with verbal/visual depiction of target), 4 street savvy (tracking criminal), 4 synergy) Hide +10 (8 ranks, 2 Dex) Intimidate +11 (7 ranks (11 skill points), 0 Cha, 2 sacred Sharn, 2 synergy) Knowledge (local) +32 (23 ranks, 3 Int, 2 city sense, 4 watch detective) Listen +23 (19 ranks, 2 Wis, 2 insight) Open Lock +10 (8 Ranks, 2 Dex) Search +28 (19 ranks, 5 ranks, 2 Int, 2 insight) Sense Motive +33 (23 ranks, 2 Wis, 2 insight, 2 synergy, 4 Recognize Imposter (vs Bluff)) Spot +31 (23 ranks, 2 Wis, 2 insight, 4 Recognize Imposter (vs Disguise)) Survival +9 (5 ranks (8 skill points), 2 Wis, 2 synergy (following tracks)) EDIT: Granted, this is all before you buy gear. ^^ Can we say +5 Manacles OF DOOM!!? EDIT: Removed unnecessary skill point listing. btw, glad to be of help. :)
MaplessManiac620 11-10-04, 06:39 AM	Yowza! Thank you for the lengthy reply! Boy, do I feel foolish with all the little holes you found in the build. I'll address the more specific points of the build (including Shou Disciple, why Dodge was allowed, ect.) later.....i.e not 3:30 am. heh. Again, thank you, I'll take everything you said into consideration.
MaplessManiac620 11-11-04, 01:39 AM	Well, first of all, your attack won't work. Improved hog-tie does not give you a free attack, it just bumps hog-tie up so you don't need to pin first. However, you still need to initiate the grapple. However, I believe you can only grapple one opponent at a time. If you attempt to grapple 2 opponents, you take a -10 on each grapple check. I think maybe I wasnt clear enough. Let try this. 1.) I use my unarmed strike to attack threatened baddie #1 2.) If I deal more than 10 points of damage using Knockdown I get a free trip attempt. 3.) I use Improved Trip on this attempt, granting me a free attack if I succeed. 4.) I use this free attack to initiate a grapple, and if I succeed 5.) I use Improved Hog Tie to Immobilize baddie #1. 6.) Because I hit baddie #1 with an unarmed strike, I use circle kick to get a free attack on threatened baddie #2. 7.) If I deal more than 10 points of damage using Knockdown I get a free trip attempt. 8.)I use Improved Trip on this attempt, granting me a free attack if I succeed. 9.)I use this free attack to initiate a grapple, and if I succeed 10.)I use Improved Hog Tie to Immobilize baddie #2. Is that more clear on how I think I can tie up (or Magebane Manacle) 2 foes with a full round action? When designing Ranger fighting styles, remember that they only get the benefits of a couple "virtual" feats, usable only in light or no armor iirc. Also, Devastating Grapple is an unwise choice for a high level ability. A lot of the creatures you face at that level will be immune to it, and it requires 3 full rounds holding the pin. Also, you obviously want to be part of the Sharn Watch or Guard... part of that is "bringing 'em back alive." So Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple, and Clever Wrestling would be what you get (I'd call this Brawler style), with no Apparent Defense or flurry, as those are both fairly powerful abilities. Heck, flurry is basically a monk's version of two-weapon fighting. I'd just go with the TWF style otherwise. Okay, out with Devestating Grapple. It is a good call to remove it. Flurry is also out, as taking TWF is pretty much the same thing, like you mentioned. I really do like Apparent Defense though...is there any way I could make it fit? Any way at all? :bigeyes: Urban Ranger Fighting Style v2.0 2nd: Improved Unarmed Strike, 1d6 Damage 6th: Improved Grapple, 1d8 Unarmed Damage 11th: Sleeper Lock**, 1d10 Unarmed Damage ** Sleeperlock as found in the Reaping Mauler PrC. DC = 10+Urban Ranger class level + Cha Modifier) What does Jotunbrund do, and where can I find it? It's a Forgotten Realms feat (which has been approved to take) that treats humans as large creatures in Trip/Disarm/Grapple circumstances. Its only available to take at 1st level. Master Inquisitive does not give Dodge as a bonus feat, and I don't see why a DM would allow it. It does not fit the spirit of the class. He is allowing it, and I need it as a pre-req for Shou Disciple...I'm not complaining. I don't know where the Shou Disciple is from, though again I think a DM probably won't allow it. Admittingly, this did take some work. Its found in Unapproachable East, another Forgotten Realms book. I wanted it because it gives an unarmed damage bonus, relatively good skills, and a bonus feat. I renamed it, and made a pitch on how it could be applicable to my character, and he allowed it. He's a nice guy. :D Circle Kick requires a Base Attack Bonus of +3, Improved Unarmed Strike, and Dex 15. It requires you to make a single attack with an unarmed strike as a full round action, and if you hit, you can make a second attack roll against a different opponent you threaten. GREAT.. I will meet the Pre-req's, as we're usign a 32 point buy, and I went with five 14's and a 10. I'm assuming you're using Improved Natural Attack with unarmed strike. Yes sir I am; and although Mr. Baker debunked this today, my DM agrees with me that it applies to a Monk's unarmed strike. You do need to do at least 10 points of damage with each unarmed strike to use Knock-down. Yep. After the 1d10 that Shou Disciple gives me at 3rd level, and Improved Natural Attack (and maybe a Fanged Ring!) I'll have at least 2d8+2 (Str) unarmed damage, decent enough chance to get 10 damage. Also, taking Sharn Inquisitive requires the Investigate feat. Right. I over-looked that. I'll drop something and push some feats back. Thanks for the heads up. Anyway, thanks again, I'll take your build into consideration onn my revision!
ThanisKartaleon 11-11-04, 04:31 AM	I think maybe I wasnt clear enough. Let try this. 1.) I use my unarmed strike to attack threatened baddie #1 2.) If I deal more than 10 points of damage using Knockdown I get a free trip attempt. 3.) I use Improved Trip on this attempt, granting me a free attack if I succeed. 4.) I use this free attack to initiate a grapple, and if I succeed 5.) I use Improved Hog Tie to Immobilize baddie #1. 6.) Because I hit baddie #1 with an unarmed strike, I use circle kick to get a free attack on threatened baddie #2. 7.) If I deal more than 10 points of damage using Knockdown I get a free trip attempt. 8.)I use Improved Trip on this attempt, granting me a free attack if I succeed. 9.)I use this free attack to initiate a grapple, and if I succeed 10.)I use Improved Hog Tie to Immobilize baddie #2. Is that more clear on how I think I can tie up (or Magebane Manacle) 2 foes with a full round action? Unfortunately, it still won't work. You're fine up to #4. But the problem is that you need to have another attack available to hog tie once you've succeeded on the grapple. You've locked arms with him, now you need to apply a twist. Also, you'd need to be somehow holding two manacles and make an unarmed strike to hog-tie 2 guys in one round. Unless maybe you have Quickdraw. It's got great imagery, but it still won't work. I really do like Apparent Defense though...is there any way I could make it fit? Any way at all? :bigeyes: Urban Ranger Fighting Style v2.0 2nd: Improved Unarmed Strike, 1d6 Damage 6th: Improved Grapple, 1d8 Unarmed Damage 11th: Sleeper Lock**, 1d10 Unarmed Damage ** Sleeperlock as found in the Reaping Mauler PrC. DC = 10+Urban Ranger class level + Cha Modifier) Apparent Defense is actually another feat I'm unfamiliar with. Perhaps I need to go back to DM school. :P I suppose I would allow your unarmed damage to increase with the levels, though it wouldn't be something I'd let just anyone have. Sleeperlock has some of the same problems as Devastating Grapple, but I can see where you're going with it, so that's fine. It's a weaker ability than I would probably have chosen, but I suppose you've got that balanced out with the unarmed damage increase. It's a Forgotten Realms feat (which has been approved to take) that treats humans as large creatures in Trip/Disarm/Grapple circumstances. Its only available to take at 1st level. Ah... I was wondering where you were gonna get your grapple and trip bonuses from. Good choice, as long as the DM allows it (keeping in mind that FR Regional Feats are more powerful than normal feats) He is allowing it, and I need it as a pre-req for Shou Disciple...I'm not complaining. ... Admittingly, this did take some work. Its found in Unapproachable East, another Forgotten Realms book. I wanted it because it gives an unarmed damage bonus, relatively good skills, and a bonus feat. I renamed it, and made a pitch on how it could be applicable to my character, and he allowed it. He's a nice guy. :D Sounds pretty easy-going. Nice to have a DM like that (unlike me, I'm a bastard... 'course that's only because my players are absolute munchkins.) Yep. After the 1d10 that Shou Disciple gives me at 3rd level, and Improved Natural Attack (and maybe a Fanged Ring!) I'll have at least 2d8+2 (Str) unarmed damage, decent enough chance to get 10 damage. Hmm.. surely we can bring that up more... Amulet of Natural Attack +5 or something like that. Ah, I know! Ectoplasmic Fist! (ECS 264) That should do it, so your average damage will be even higher (right now it's 11, so there's a good near-half odds of doing less than 10.) Anyway, thanks again, I'll take your build into consideration onn my revision! No problem, and thank you for taking my consideration into consideration! :P
MaplessManiac620 11-11-04, 06:15 PM	Unfortunately, it still won't work. You're fine up to #4. But the problem is that you need to have another attack available to hog tie once you've succeeded on the grapple. You've locked arms with him, now you need to apply a twist. Also, you'd need to be somehow holding two manacles and make an unarmed strike to hog-tie 2 guys in one round. Unless maybe you have Quickdraw. It's got great imagery, but it still won't work. Grapples are porbably the ont thing that makes my head hurt in combat. It's a nice option, but just so complicated to me. I'll read up more on it. Apparent Defense is actually another feat I'm unfamiliar with. Perhaps I need to go back to DM school. :P ITs the second level ability of the Arcane duelist, available on the web. I suppose I would allow your unarmed damage to increase with the levels, though it wouldn't be something I'd let just anyone have. Sleeperlock has some of the same problems as Devastating Grapple, but I can see where you're going with it, so that's fine. It's a weaker ability than I would probably have chosen, but I suppose you've got that balanced out with the unarmed damage increase. Okay, thanks for th imput. The capmaign isn't very high powered, and the other PC's are built for flavor more than anything. Ah... I was wondering where you were gonna get your grapple and trip bonuses from. Good choice, as long as the DM allows it (keeping in mind that FR Regional Feats are more powerful than normal feats) Sounds pretty easy-going. Nice to have a DM like that (unlike me, I'm a bastard... 'course that's only because my players are absolute munchkins.) Yeah, he is. He's a firm believer of the "if you have a convincing reason (and sometimes $5) I'll let you." Hmm.. surely we can bring that up more... Amulet of Natural Attack +5 or something like that. Ah, I know! Ectoplasmic Fist! (ECS 264) That should do it, so your average damage will be even higher (right now it's 11, so there's a good near-half odds of doing less than 10.) I'm sure if I took a good look around the Char Op Boards, I could do this to an almost broken extent. No problem, and thank you for taking my consideration into consideration! :P You're welcome. ;)
FenrysStar 11-11-04, 08:15 PM	I did this on another thread but here goes Level 1: Swap out Track for Urban Track and Survival for Gather Information Level 2: Improved Unarmed Strike (Damage: 1d4) Level 6: Improved Grapple (Damage: 1d6) Level 11: Improved Critical (Unarmed) or Improved Trip (Damage: 1d8)
MaplessManiac620 11-11-04, 08:32 PM	I did this on another thread but here goes Level 1: Swap out Track for Urban Track and Survival for Gather Information Level 2: Improved Unarmed Strike (Damage: 1d4) Level 6: Improved Grapple (Damage: 1d6) Level 11: Improved Critical (Unarmed) or Improved Trip (Damage: 1d8) If you're referring to the "Alternate Combat Styles" thread, yeah, I've seen it, and I believe I was the one of the first (if not the first) to post an unarmed style in it. Thanks for the input.
FenrysStar 11-11-04, 09:40 PM	Actually the thread started out with a single weapon style and a few others followed. But Wizards really needs to get on the ball and gives us more combat styles in some fashion. Even if they sanction other sources they started it now they need to continue it.
MaplessManiac620 11-11-04, 09:47 PM	Actually the thread started out with a single weapon style and a few others followed. But Wizards really needs to get on the ball and gives us more combat styles in some fashion. Even if they sanction other sources they started it now they need to continue it. No need. Thats what GM's and Players are for. Its your game, do waht you want with it.
FenrysStar 11-12-04, 10:37 PM	I beg to differ on that. If for no other reason than I want to see a bunch of these styles compiled in print and made available to anyone. I especially want them availble for when I play in the RPGA
MaplessManiac620 11-15-04, 11:44 PM	Alright, I pawned a copy of Masters of the Wild off a buddy, and took a couple levels of Watch Dectective. Not four, but two. I also decided to have my investigator use a spiked gauntlet until he gets his unarmed damage up from Shou Disciple. The flavor of using his fists was lost int he original, and I like how this "feels" much better. I also save quite a few feats, and dont fall into the cliche tripper builds. "Sharn Detective v.3" Urban Ranger 1/Human Paragon 2/Master Inquisitive 2/Shou Disciple 3/Watch Detective 2/Master Inquisitive 2/Justicar 8. Level 1: Improved Unarmed Strike Human: Jotunbrund Flaw 1: Weapon Focus (Unarmed) Flaw 2: Dodge Level 3: Investigate Human Paragon 2: Dirty Fighting Master Inquisitive 2: Track Level 6: Skill Focus (Gather Information) Shou Disciple 2: Quick Draw Level 9: Circle Kick Level 12: Improved Natural Attack (Unarmed) [DM allowing] Level 15: Quicker Than the Eye (Know effects, not pre-reqs..help?) Level 18: Expert Tactician (Know effects, not pre-reqs..help?) Much better feel; though maybe not more optimized. For those who are curious, I get to use a 32 point buy (or roll; I don't trust myself :P ) for my scores, so I went with the classic Str 14, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 14. (The lower Wisdom also plays into my concept) Here's what I have at 3rd level; where my character will be introduced: Attack +5 @ 2d4+2 (Spiked Gauntlet+Dirty Fighting+Str); not bad, seeing how the spiked chain was the same; it limits my mobility a bit, but again, also in character for him. (Stand and duke it out) The skills aren't so bad either: Bluff +8 (6 ranks, +2 Cha) Gather Information +8 (6 ranks, +2 Cha) Hide +7 (5 ranks, +2 Dex) Knowledege (local) +8 (6 ranks, +2 Int) Listen +5 (5 ranks, +0 Wis) Move Silently +7 (5 ranks, +2 Dex) Search +7 (5 ranks, +2 Int) Sense Motive +5 (5 ranks, +0 Wis) Spot +5 (5 ranks, +0 Wis) For feats, I went with (mainly pre-req's too): Jotunbrund, Improved Unarmed Strike, Weapon Focus (Unarmed), Dodge, Investigate, Dirty Fighting. Again, comments, questions, and help is always appreciated...I have a good feeling about this. Thanks!
MaplessManiac620 11-16-04, 12:42 AM	Human Urban Ranger2/Urban Druid1/Sharn Inquisitive2/Watch Detective4/Sharn Inquisitive5/Justicar 8 Just noticed this... Sharn Inquisitive = Master Inquisitive, right? If so, Master Inquisitive is only a 5 level PrC..... :confused: Is there a PrC in S:CoT that I dont know about?
ThanisKartaleon 11-16-04, 04:17 AM	Just noticed this... Sharn Inquisitive = Master Inquisitive, right? If so, Master Inquisitive is only a 5 level PrC..... :confused: Is there a PrC in S:CoT that I dont know about? Sorry, meant Master Inquisitive, and I was showing the total levels in each class, just different format. so Urban Ranger2/Urban Druid1/Master Inquisitive5/Watch Detective4/Justicar8 is what I meant. I don't have the Sharn book yet (and my fiancee won't let me get it 'cause it's near Christmas), but maybe they have an alternate inquisitor? Somehow I doubt it though. Oh, and in the latest issue of Dragon (they so rip my mind) they discussed alternate ranger combat styles, including a brawler type (they call it something else). They recommend Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple, and Stunning Fist, in that order. Notably, no increase in unarmed damage, but eh. Oh, if you can get access to the d20 modern manual (dm allowing) there's a few feats that allow increased unarmed damage, and even increased critical multiplier (nonlethal only though) Level 15: Quicker Than the Eye (Know effects, not pre-reqs..help?) Level 18: Expert Tactician (Know effects, not pre-reqs..help?) Quicker Than the Eye is from Song and Silence, and requires a 19 Dex. It's basically a slightly more awesome version of Improved Feint (but notably does not require Combat Expertise). I should say here something I just recently discovered: If you feint an opponent, the effects last until the end of your next turn. Which is awesome, because iirc, there's nothing else like that. Usually stuff lasts until the beginning of your next turn. So if you use Quicker than the Eye successfully, the poor sucker is flat footed for at least 3 of your attacks. Awesomeness. Expert Tactician is from Sword and Fist requires BAB +3. Oh my. I see where you're going with this. Nice synergy. Free attack against a flat-footed opponent.
FenrysStar 11-16-04, 09:17 PM	Friend of mine offered this model of an Urban Ranger that I rather liked and that was the Chuck Norris title characer Walker, Texas Ranger. Although justify making him a minor martial artist in my own mind. Not to exceed the monk mind you but he's no slouch in a barroom brawl either.
MaplessManiac620 11-16-04, 09:42 PM	Sorry, meant Master Inquisitive, and I was showing the total levels in each class, just different format. so Urban Ranger2/Urban Druid1/Master Inquisitive5/Watch Detective4/Justicar8 is what I meant. I figures. Hell, I didn't even notice for a long time. either way, you got your point across. I don't have the Sharn book yet (and my fiancee won't let me get it 'cause it's near Christmas), but maybe they have an alternate inquisitor? Somehow I doubt it though. I hear that. It was as long shot, but I guess between Watch Detective and Master Inquisitive, we won't need another. Oh, and in the latest issue of Dragon (they so rip my mind) they discussed alternate ranger combat styles, including a brawler type (they call it something else). They recommend Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple, and Stunning Fist, in that order. Notably, no increase in unarmed damage, but eh. I heard about that. Even if their style was worth while, I found that the three levels of Shou Disciple really cant be beat. 1d10 unarmed damage and a +2 Dodge Bonus to AC? I'm not arguing! Oh, if you can get access to the d20 modern manual (dm allowing) there's a few feats that allow increased unarmed damage, and even increased critical multiplier (nonlethal only though) Yes, I own it. I have thought about adapting the d20 Moden Martial Artist AdvC. However, I like the Star Wars way of handling unarmed combat better. Three feats, each allowing 1d4 damage to an unarmed strike (and they stack; 3d4+Str with all three feats. Either way, Shou Disciple is still better. Quicker Than the Eye is from Song and Silence, and requires a 19 Dex. It's basically a slightly more awesome version of Improved Feint (but notably does not require Combat Expertise). I should say here something I just recently discovered: If you feint an opponent, the effects last until the end of your next turn. Which is awesome, because iirc, there's nothing else like that. Usually stuff lasts until the beginning of your next turn. So if you use Quicker than the Eye successfully, the poor sucker is flat footed for at least 3 of your attacks. Awesomeness. Yes, I thought it was a good little trick, since I was abandoning my Knockback, Improved Trip, Grapple format. The Dex 19 shouldnt be a problem with Magic Items available at 15th level. Expert Tactician is from Sword and Fist requires BAB +3. Oh my. I see where you're going with this. Nice synergy. Free attack against a flat-footed opponent. This is what hanging around the Char Op boards will do to you. :D EDIT: I noticed you linked this in your sig! Thanks for the free ad space! ;)
MaplessManiac620 11-16-04, 09:45 PM	Friend of mine offered this model of an Urban Ranger that I rather liked and that was the Chuck Norris title characer Walker, Texas Ranger. Although justify making him a minor martial artist in my own mind. Not to exceed the monk mind you but he's no slouch in a barroom brawl either. A non-optimized Monk will probably be doing 4d8-6d8 damage, though we all know how crazy it can get if that's what you focus on. I think this turned out nicely, especially at low levels, when it's usually pretty hard toget everything you want (which I did! :))
ThanisKartaleon 11-17-04, 04:22 AM	Expert Tactician is from Sword and Fist requires BAB +3. Oh my. I see where you're going with this. Nice synergy. Free attack against a flat-footed opponent. Gar, silly me. I didn't notice the updated version of Expert Tactician in the Song & Silence. Completely different prereqs. Requires Dex 13, BAB +2, Combat Reflexes. Same effective benefit, but clarifies that you can use special attacks like disarm, trip, and grab. EDIT: I noticed you linked this in your sig! Thanks for the free ad space! np ;) I like to link stuff that interests me :)
FenrysStar 11-17-04, 07:54 PM	Heh, Combat Martial Arts and related feats and wonderful set of feats, no lie
MaplessManiac620 11-17-04, 08:41 PM	Heh, Combat Martial Arts and related feats and wonderful set of feats, no lie I'm not so impressed with the d20 Combat Martial Arts tree, especially compared to the Star Wars RCR system.
Beleriphon 11-17-04, 09:04 PM	What does Jotunbrund do, and where can I find it? Races of Faerun I think, and it makes the character large sized of the purposes of damage and grappling. So a Jotunbrund monk deals the same damage as an ogre monk, a good sized grapple bonus, but none of the penalties for being large sized.
MaplessManiac620 11-17-04, 09:17 PM	Races of Faerun I think, and it makes the character large sized of the purposes of damage and grappling. So a Jotunbrund monk deals the same damage as an ogre monk, a good sized grapple bonus, but none of the penalties for being large sized. I wasn't aware that it also affected damage. IIRC, it makes you considered large in opposed rolls only, so like you said: Grappling, but also Tripping and Disarm. I dont actually own the book, but I wrote it down for future referance from a friend's RoF (again IIRC).
MaplessManiac620 11-21-04, 07:49 PM	Well, I just picked up my copy of S:CoT and found myself cursing at the fact theres another PrC I would want to use; Citadel Elite. Four levels looks very cool, three would nab me another contact, this one noble, and four would allow my to deny some opponents their Dex Bonus...always a good thing. The skills mesh nicely, and I like the flavor of the class...but I have to idea how I'm going to fit it into my build...any suggestions?
MaplessManiac620 11-22-04, 02:13 AM	[EDIT:] I eliminated now, not needed feats and re-shuffled the level distribution, allowing Citadel Elite earlier in the build. There are now 5 free feats that I request imput on. Thank you again.[/EDIT:] "Sharn Detective" variant: Without Justicar. Urban Ranger 1/Human Paragon 2/Master Inquisitive 2/Shou Disciple 5/Citadel Elite 4/Master Inquisitive 2/Watch Detective 4 Level 1: Improved Unarmed Strike Human: Jotunbrund Flaw 1: Weapon Focus (Unarmed) Flaw 2: Dodge Level 3: Investigate Human Paragon 2: Dirty Fighting Master Inquisitive 2: Recognize Imposter Level 6: Improved Natural Attack (Unarmed) [DM allowing] Shou Disciple 2: Deflect Arrows Level 9: Circle Kick Shou 4 : Improved Initiative Level 12: Feat Citadel Elite 2: Feat Citadel Elite 4: Feat Level 15: Feat Master Inquisitive 4: Research Level 18: Feat Interesting now. Since I lose the extra damage by dropping Justicar complely (If I can't get Improved Hog-Tie, I dont want it :-P) I dont need Quicker Than the Eye, though Expert Tactician may be useful because of Citadel Elite's 4th level ability. Adding two more levels of Watch Detective from MotW nabs me a synergy bonus to Bluff and Gather Information, a disarming bonus, some GM help once a day, and some nice bonuses when working with a team-mate. The last two levels of Shou Disciple gives me the ability to flurry with any martial weapon, another +1 Dodge to AC and base 2d6 unarmed damage. Now, as for feats, seeing how I have 4 of them open, I was thinking Improved Disarm (WD 2 gives me Combat Expertise), and Expert Tactician (so I get to use it on some enemies with low Dex bonuses). Other than that, I have two open feats that I have to fill in the late levels. Ideas anyone? I'm not sure if I like this over Justicar 8...the concepts are similar, with this one being more structured. Justicar makes me think hes working for himself more than anything. What do you think? Thanks again everyone!
Bubba333 11-22-04, 04:20 AM	Wow! I'm late into this thread so please forgive me if this doesn't help. I'd make (if you can) a gestalt Rogue/Urban Ranger all the way. I made on and she is AWESOME in Sharn! She's a halfling and has a crow for her animal companion. She's only 4th so she's not that powerful, but she focuses on Two-Weapon Fighting (figured that would be better in Sharn than archery) and has Research as well. Sorry to not add anything more but my sheet's in another room at the moment and I'm lazy! ;)
MaplessManiac620 11-22-04, 07:39 AM	Wow! I'm late into this thread so please forgive me if this doesn't help. I'd make (if you can) a gestalt Rogue/Urban Ranger all the way. I made on and she is AWESOME in Sharn! She's a halfling and has a crow for her animal companion. She's only 4th so she's not that powerful, but she focuses on Two-Weapon Fighting (figured that would be better in Sharn than archery) and has Research as well. Sorry to not add anything more but my sheet's in another room at the moment and I'm lazy! ;) Any input is helpful as it gives me ideas. I cannot use the Gestalt Optional rule from UA, as it would put me over the top compared to the rest of the party. (And I'll admit, almost all of them are new to table top RPG's, so I don't want to break anything :P ) The problem, for me, about going too far into Urban Ranger is that I cannot be the unarmed fighter that I've always envisioned him. The Shou Disciple levels do this (btw, I re-named and wrote a new flavor for the class for my DM and he's allowing it, since its a FR regional specific PrC). Also, I didnt find much from Urban Ranger (past 1st level really) that would boost my investigative skills like Watch Detective, Master Inquisitive, and now, Citadel Elite do. Rouge is a good option for the HUGE amount of skills, but the d6 hit die has always troubled me; I want this guy to hold in a fight, so the d10's and d8's have to stay. An animal companion is a nice idea, but again, I dont have room to get to Urban Ranger 4, unless I drop 2 levels of Shou Disciple and one of Watch detective, which I'd rather not do. Do you have any suggections for feats? I still have those 2 open, and I'm clueless as what to do with them...
Bubba333 11-22-04, 09:51 AM	I was going out on a limb on the gestalt bit (which I have to say is an AWESOME variant rule!). Perhaps you could make a rogue who then becomes a monk? Maybe he was a "bad kid" that was taken in by a street protector and learned his way in the monastary outside the city? Add the Investigate, Research and Urban Tracking Feats and you're golden! So, going with a human (admittedly for the extra skill points and Feat) it might go something like this: 1st-3rd Level: Rogue Feats: Skill Focus (Gather Information), Improved Initiative (1st Level), Urban Tracking (3rd Level) Flaws: (As Above) *(Stock up on the skills from 1st to 3rd and then become a monk at 4th)* From there I'd go with Stunning Fist (1st Level Monk) and Deflect Arrows (2nd Level Monk). You might want Whirling Steel Strike by 6th (if you're a disciple of Dol Dorn) in which case you'd need Martial Weapon Proficiency (Longsword) and Weapon Focus (Long sword). I'd make sure my first level was perhaps Fighter then, but in all honesty I'd stay away from Whirling Steel Strike in favor of those cool "detective" Feats. Did that one help? :cool:
Bubba333 11-22-04, 10:24 AM	Another option that may work is going strictly Urban Ranger and asking (begging?) your DM to allow you to swap the combat styles for and unarmed style. This fits a Sharn-based character concept (weapons aren't always allowed) and isn't unbalancing in the slightest. The Feats I'd ask for in trade would be negotiable, but Improved Unarmed Strike would definetely be the first (it's too bad there aren't martial arts Feats like in d20 Modern and the Star Wars RPG, eh?). Finally, I'd ask about Favored Environment as an alternative and include "Urban" as a type of terrain listed. Of course, you'd gain bonuses to "Gather Information" as opposed to "Survival". Somewhere in there you may want to hop into Master Inquisitive, so plan ahead for that if you do. I think that if you can trade those combat styles for an unarmed version with an Urban Ranger, you'd be good to go!
MaplessManiac620 11-22-04, 07:14 PM	My first attempt of fleshing out my concept was in fact a Rouge/Monk combo, but found I was too strapped for feats to do waht I wanted, and taking fighter levels hurt the skills he needed to be effective as a detective. I did discuss an unarmed style variant, and had a concept for it, but found that, again, it was too little to wait 11 levels for...Shou Disciple was my alternate, giving me flurry AND 1d10 unarmed damage AND a +2 Dodge Bonus to AC for 3 levels. Favored Enviroment (Urban) is an awesome idea, which I had over-looked. You get a cool point for that. *Notes* It'll only make him that much cooler in Sharn. :D
Bubba333 11-22-04, 09:17 PM	A cool point? For me? Really? :D Seriously, I'm happy to have helped and I can see you not wanting to wait for a long time with an alternate combat style and all. So, what's this Shou Disciple thingie and what book is it in? It's way too bad that you can't make a gestalt character. That would solve much of the problem...*sigh*...and my players were against gestalt! :eek:
MaplessManiac620 11-22-04, 10:06 PM	A cool point? For me? Really? :D Seriously, I'm happy to have helped and I can see you not wanting to wait for a long time with an alternate combat style and all. So, what's this Shou Disciple thingie and what book is it in? It's way too bad that you can't make a gestalt character. That would solve much of the problem...*sigh*...and my players were against gestalt! :eek: Shou Disciple can be found in Unapproachable East. Its a nice 5 level PrC with full BAB, good Fort and Ref saves, and after 5 levels gives 2d6 unarmed damage, a +3 Dodge Bonus to AC, and Flurry (at -2/-2) with any Martial Weapon. I re-named it and gave it a different name and background flavor, and my DM allowed it. I'm thinking of re-writing it a bit, as the flurry doesnt fit (my character makes huge powerful swings, definately not fast). An idea may be Cha to AC at 5th level, as I see him as flashy and a real showman, and maybe Power Attack at 3rd....hmmm... Suggestions?
MaplessManiac620 11-23-04, 06:54 AM	A notice: I made a major edit to the last-posted build, eliminating some feats required for Justicar, which is no longer in the build. Citadel Elite was moved to earlier in the build. There are five feats, yes five that have no yet been specified and can be any I qualify for. :mymy: Nice, isn't it? However, I do need some help as to which to choose...maybe some based on charging for combat technique flavor? I was thinking: -Flying Kick (3.0 Version - Doubles damage on a charge) -Mantis Leap (make Jump check; if successful, may charge and add 2x STR in addition to normal damage) -Powerful Charge (adds 1d8 on charge) -Greater Powerful Charge (up damage from Powerful Charge to +2d6) -Power Lunge (doubles STR modifier to damage during charge) And if I give up Jotunbrund (since now its really not needed, but cool) I can take Steady Mountaineer (Take 10 on Jump and Climb checks). Still lost? Here's the newest gimmick. Assume 20 Strength. 1.) Use Mantis Leap to "charge" an opponent. (x2 Str) 2.) Use Steady Mountaineer to take 10 on the Jump check.(Not needed) 3.) Use Power Lunge to gain yet another bonus (x2 Str; total x3 Str) 4.) Use Greater Powerful Charge to gain more damage (+2d6) 5.) Lets slap on Sandals of Tiger's Leap just for fun (x2 Str; total x4 Str) 6.) 3.0 Flying Kick to double all the damage on the charge. (Damage x2) 7.) Valourus enhancement on gauntlets triples all damage on charge (Damage x3; total x4) Total Damage on a charge: 2d6 (base) + 1d6 (Improved Natural Attack) + 2d6 (Greater Powerful Charge) +20 (+5 Str x4; Mantis Leap, Power Lunge, Sandals of Tigers Leap) * 4 (3.0 Flying Kick and Valourus enhancement) = 20d6+80...all for a -2 AC? OKAY! :D (And this is before we factor in Fanged Ring or Ectoplasmic Fist...if we do, charge damage gains another 2d6, making it 28d6+80 per charge :eek: ) Probably worse than the tripping idea I had earlier. :devil: Just to ask, are there any investigative feats I'm overlooking? His primary focus should be that, not having a combat gimmck....even though its fun as hell...:P
MaplessManiac620 11-24-04, 07:07 AM	Shameless:bump:
ThanisKartaleon 11-25-04, 07:41 AM	[EDIT:] I eliminated now, not needed feats and re-shuffled the level distribution, allowing Citadel Elite earlier in the build. There are now 5 free feats that I request imput on. Thank you again.[/EDIT:] "Sharn Detective" variant: Without Justicar. Urban Ranger 1/Human Paragon 2/Master Inquisitive 2/Shou Disciple 5/Citadel Elite 4/Master Inquisitive 2/Watch Detective 4 Level 1: Improved Unarmed Strike Human: Jotunbrund Flaw 1: Weapon Focus (Unarmed) Flaw 2: Dodge Level 3: Investigate Human Paragon 2: Dirty Fighting Master Inquisitive 2: Recognize Imposter Level 6: Improved Natural Attack (Unarmed) [DM allowing] Shou Disciple 2: Deflect Arrows Level 9: Circle Kick Shou 4 : Improved Initiative Level 12: Feat Citadel Elite 2: Feat Citadel Elite 4: Feat Level 15: Feat Master Inquisitive 4: Research Level 18: Feat Now, as for feats, seeing how I have 5 of them open, I was thinking Improved Disarm (WD 2 gives me Combat Expertise), and Expert Tactician (so I get to use it on some enemies with low Dex bonuses). Other than that, I have two open feats that I have to fill in the late levels. Ideas anyone? Well, not that it's relevant any more, but I just noticed in the Song & Silence FAQ that Quicker than the Eye does not actually grant a (3.0) partial action. It's just worded badly. Anyway, that said... Improved Disarm and Expert Tactician are indeed excellent choices. Your concept, if I have it right, is someone who can find an urban criminal, and take them down alive. So far so good... Improved Feint might be good, but since you vetoed Quicker Than the Eye, which is more or less the same thing... Combat Reflexes might be nice for crowd control. If you take Improved Disarm, that opens up Snatch Weapon (Song & Silence), which can be nice (if you can use the weapon snatched effectively. Open Minded (Expanded Psionics Handbook) is an awesome feat if you're in need of precious skill points... +5 skill points, no prereq. Rapid Metabolism (EPH) is another nice feat that not only lets you heal faster, you heal even if you don't rest... which you might not do much of, tracking down the baddies and all. Stand Still could be useful as well... (EPH) If they try to leave your threat zone, you can use your AoO to stop them. None of these three feats require any psionic ability. Some ones that do, though: Since you're in Sharn, the ability to jump around could be very very useful. Take Wild Talent to gain a psionic power pool, then Mental Leap, granting a +10 bonus on jump checks with the expenditure of psionic focus (which should be easy to obtain at high level), and Up the Walls to do some matrix action ^^ I can just see it, too... A cloaked ranger with funny eyes spots his mark smiling at him on another bridge some distance away. Concentrating for a moment, he dashes over to the nearest tower, runs up and around the wall, leaping at the last second and landing on the other bridge, hand lightly touching the ground. The mark stops smiling. Looking for some noncombat ones... it's just taking a while. Oh, something else I just found for even more character development: Book of Distinctions & Drawbacks (http://www.minasithil.com/cryptosnarkgames/catalog.html#bodd) by Cryptosnark games... haven't gotten myself a copy yet, but it's on the cheap and the free preview looks good.
MaplessManiac620 11-25-04, 07:03 PM	WIld Talent, Mental Leap, and Up the Walls sound awesome...now I just have to find a way to make Concentration a class skill; I'll have to look over my classes to see which do. I find that much more flavorful (and much much less broken) than my charging idea above. Plus it'll give my character more ways to stand out... After he pulls a "Matrix stunt" I can see the rest of the part going "That's Impossible..." ala the police officer in the first Matrix. I'll add Improved Disarm too...not many thugs will be adept in unarmed combat like he is. That leaves one more. I have to give up Expert Tactician because the Citadel Elites ability does not alow you to ignore their Dex bonus to make them flatfooted...So I'd have to take quicker than the eye/Expert Tactician anyway... Stand Still might be a good idea. If someone tries to bolt and get past me, I'll be able to stop them from getting away. I like it...Thanks again!
Bubba333 11-26-04, 12:01 AM	Where is "Up The Walls"? I've never heard of it.
MaplessManiac620 11-26-04, 01:04 AM	Where is "Up The Walls"? I've never heard of it. Expanded Psionics Handbook. It'll let you pull of Matrix style running manuevers. Pretty awesome flavor.
MaplessManiac620 11-26-04, 01:23 AM	"Sharn Detective" variant: Without Justicar (Update w/ Psionics) Urban Ranger 1/Human Paragon 2/Master Inquisitive 2/Shou Disciple 5/Citadel Elite 4/Master Inquisitive 2/Watch Detective 4 Level 1: Improved Unarmed Strike Human: Jotunbrund Flaw 1: Weapon Focus (Unarmed) Flaw 2: Dodge Level 3: Investigate Human Paragon 2: Dirty Fighting Master Inquisitive 2: Recognize Imposter Level 6: Improved Natural Attack (Unarmed) [DM allowing] Shou Disciple 2: Deflect Arrows Level 9: Circle Kick Shou 4 : Improved Initiative Level 12: Wils Talent Citadel Elite 2: Up The Walls Citadel Elite 4: Speed of Thought Level 15: Mental Leap Master Inquisitive 4: Research Level 18: Psionic Meditation Great flavor...mixing in the unarmed combatant prowess with extra speed, being able to leap huge distances around Sharn, and running on the walls and ceilings to avoid enemies. I love it. Very Matrix...:D Concentration ranks are going to be hard to get; I'll have to load up on the ranks when I take my Human Paragon levels early. At least it'll always be a class skill for me. :D I love Human Paragon. I was also looking for a stylish ranged weapon that wouldn't make me take an EWP...a crossbow of reloading sounds interesting...are there any other suggestions?
Bubba333 11-26-04, 04:35 AM	Expanded Psionics Handbook. It'll let you pull of Matrix style running manuevers. Pretty awesome flavor. Thanks!
ThanisKartaleon 11-26-04, 08:56 AM	I was also looking for a stylish ranged weapon that wouldn't make me take an EWP...a crossbow of reloading sounds interesting...are there any other suggestions? I see a light crossbow being a good idea, with multiple types of bolts (silvered, cold iron, alchemical, etc.) A sling could see use, and be easily concealable (or at least it should be... why are daggers easier to conceal than a strap of leather? It doesn't even look remotely like a weapon! You could wear it as a headband and nobody would look twice...). Plus, as a sneaky trick you could sling thunderstones. ^^ (just remember that they'd do 1d3 instead of 1d4) Daggers, like slings, are easily concealable. Well, actually, RAW, more so. Too bad bolas, nets, spiked chains and whips are exotic, heh. All the best capturing weapons. A spear does damage equivilant to a longsword and has a 20 ft. range increment. Plus there's that double damage against charging opponents. That's nice, when it gets used. Especially if you crit ^^ Clubs do less damage and have shorter range, but have the best price tag in the world. Other than that, there really aren't that many nonexotic ranged weapons. The Book of Exalted Deeds has some nice weapons for dealing nonlethal, but the only nonexotic is a melee weapon. You should also have a weapon that gives a bonus to disarm, since you took Imp. Disarm. The Flail, Heavy Flail, and Ranseur are the only nonexotic weapons to do so. The Sai, on the other hand, makes you a disarming fiend... but that's exotic. I'd ask your DM about weapon groups (Unearthed Arcana). They make your choices a lot easier, and I think they give extra flavor. Heck, with your build you could start knowing all monk weapons (In that case I'd take shurikens dipped in paralyzing/knockout poisons and a pair of Sai (sais? that just doesn't look right)
Bubba333 11-26-04, 02:32 PM	I have a question for MY Urban Ranger: Which combat style do you recommend, archery or two-weapon fighting, and why?
ThanisKartaleon 11-26-04, 03:33 PM	I have a question for MY Urban Ranger: Which combat style do you recommend, archery or two-weapon fighting, and why? Well, one downside of Archery style is that it does not give you precise shot (it does give Imp. Precise Shot, but at 11th level). So until late in level, you'd have to take that -4 unless you spent one of your feats on precise shot. But, I personally like Archery style; you can do more with it. How, you ask? Specialty arrows. Special materials and alchemy are your friend. Other than that, the latest issue of Dragon (#326) has additional Ranger combat styles: Pugilist, Mounted, Piscator (melee weapon & net), Heavy Weapon, and Weapon-thrower (names changed for clarification). Grappler is pretty good. EDIT: Wrote wrong combat style
FenrysStar 11-26-04, 07:38 PM	For sheer versatility in an Urban Ranger I recommed the Tosser style from Dragon 326. Get the rag and read it, you'll thank us for it later
ThanisKartaleon 11-26-04, 08:42 PM	For sheer versatility in an Urban Ranger I recommed the Tosser style from Dragon 326. Get the rag and read it, you'll thank us for it later You mean Throwing style, right?
FenrysStar 11-26-04, 09:33 PM	Yup
MaplessManiac620 12-31-04, 03:01 AM	Been awhile, hasn't it? I've been doing some thinking (and some crusing on the CharOp boards ;)) and there are two things I'd definately like to fit into my build. One is the great feat Able Learner, which eliminates the need to pay 2 skill points for cross class skills, as long as they were previously a class skill for me. Awesome, eh? The second resolves the my problem for finding a good ranged weapon without having to take an EWP. The Dart-Thruster from Underdark makes for a perfect pulp action weapon for this guy. Now, I've only researched this through the boards here, so I have absolutely no stats on it...except for a vauge idea that it works somewhat like a Hand Crossbow. Any help on that? (Maybe a PM? :D) I'm going to replace Jotunbrund with Able Learner (as the former was just a hold over from the tripping idea I had earlier) and throw in 2 flaws to grab Quick Draw and Quick Reload early on. Should I also squeeze in TWF? It would mainly be an RP and style thing...but the Now for something unexplored before...equipment: Dart-Thrusters of Reloading (Ideas for types of ammunition?) Hat of Anonymity Necklace of Natural Attacks Glamoured Light Armor Glove of Storing Fanged Ring Any other ideas?
RandomCitizenX 12-31-04, 03:52 AM	Just wondering, but where is able learner from?
MaplessManiac620 12-31-04, 04:20 AM	Just wondering, but where is able learner from? Races of Destiny IIRC. Or check Complete Arcane; but I'm bettin on RoD.
MaplessManiac620 12-31-04, 05:08 AM	Wow. Wasn't thinking. Here's the problem. With the Dart Thruster idea, I need three extra feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Quick Draw, and Quick Reload (reloading as a free action is good :cool: ). Now, I've already taken two Flaws to qualify for Shou Disciple at 5th level, so no more of those. I don't wanna drop the Psionic feats, as they give me some great flair; and we wouldn't want a cool cat like this guy to lose his flair, would we? I think I could use the Shou Disciple bonus feats for Quick Draw and Reload (remember how nice my DM is?), and drop Circle Kick for TWF. They come a little late, but I have no choice really. The latest feat progression looks like this: Urban Ranger 1/Human Paragon 2/Master Inquisitive 2/Shou Disciple 5/Citadel Elite 4/Master Inquisitive 2/Watch Detective 4 Level 1: Improved Unarmed Strike Human: Able Learner Flaw 1: Weapon Focus (Unarmed) Flaw 2: Dodge Level 3: Investigate Human Paragon 2: Dirty Fighting Master Inquisitive 2: Recognize Imposter Level 6: Improved Natural Attack (Unarmed) [DM allowing] Shou Disciple 2: Two Weapon Fighting Level 9: Quick Draw Shou 4 : Quick Reload Level 12: Wild Talent Citadel Elite 2: Up The Walls Citadel Elite 4: Speed of Thought Level 15: Mental Leap Master Inquisitive 4: Research Level 18: Psionic Meditation Here's the best part; I get to do this all again when Complete Adventurer comes out in a couple weeks. One word in the preview caught my eye, and I've been drooling since: Streetfighter. :D I can't wait.
FenrysStar 12-31-04, 12:07 PM	I rarely play humans. And in Eberron I would much rather play a shifter, warforged or changeling ranger than a boring human. Urban Track is simply a must. The beast grappler style and the throwing style are the two best choices. The throwing style is really good for bounty hunter types as it aids with some of the things you're likely to do, such as toss a tanglefoot bag at a fleeing felon or a dagger or a hatchet depending on how you lenient you lean.
Bubba333 12-31-04, 06:34 PM	Where's this throwing style thingie?
MaplessManiac620 12-31-04, 06:36 PM	Dragon, though I dont have a number, since I dont have it.
Romulus LoneWolf 12-31-04, 07:33 PM	It's Dragon #326. It's formed of Quick Draw, Point Blank Shot and Far Shot.
FenrysStar 01-01-05, 01:10 AM	When they redid Dragon they put in a section that gave little tips and tidbits for each of the core classes. Dragon 326 had new Combat Styles for Rangers. The same article (each class gets about a page of new stuff) had an interesting Wrestling style for rangers: Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple, Stunning Fist
MaplessManiac620 01-01-05, 02:33 AM	On less of a crunch topic, and more of a fluff area, I was looking through some character sketches for the Star Wars role-playing game, and came across the following image...I was just wondering whether or not it also fit into the Eberron feel; I think so, but wanted all of your opinions on it. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v624/xromeomustdiex/Jace_Scan_2.jpg And maybe I wanted to show off the art a little bit ;) Edit: I thought you could post pictures here. :'( Oh well, the link will have to do.
ThanisKartaleon 01-01-05, 07:48 AM	Been awhile, hasn't it? I've been doing some thinking (and some crusing on the CharOp boards ;)) and there are two things I'd definately like to fit into my build. One is the great feat Able Learner, which eliminates the need to pay 2 skill points for cross class skills, as long as they were previously a class skill for me. Awesome, eh? The second resolves the my problem for finding a good ranged weapon without having to take an EWP. The Dart-Thruster from Underdark makes for a perfect pulp action weapon for this guy. Now, I've only researched this through the boards here, so I have absolutely no stats on it...except for a vauge idea that it works somewhat like a Hand Crossbow. Any help on that? (Maybe a PM? :D) I'm going to replace Jotunbrund with Able Learner (as the former was just a hold over from the tripping idea I had earlier) and throw in 2 flaws to grab Quick Draw and Quick Reload early on. Should I also squeeze in TWF? It would mainly be an RP and style thing...but the Now for something unexplored before...equipment: Dart-Thrusters of Reloading (Ideas for types of ammunition?) Hat of Anonymity Any other ideas? Yup, I'm still around! Mantle of Obscurity. I created it for one of my characters long long ago, and then Wizards went and stole my brain (again), so it got printed in Dragon #316, where they called it the Mantle of the Mundane. +10 on hide checks, DC 14 Will save to recall any details about the wearer, 10k price tag. Dart Thrusters are pretty nifty, I'd suggest having merciful darts to go with it. That would up the damage (currently sitting at 1d4) and enable you to "take 'em back alive." Silvered ammo will also be of help, and adamantine if you can get your hands on it. Also, since it's now confirmed that there are Rakshasa and Radiant Idols in Sharn (I got Sharn for Christmas! Wheee!), holy will also help. I'd have the Dart Thruster itself be made Distant, as you might need more than the paltry 40 foot increment offered. Just a random idea, but what about specially made tanglefoot bag-bolas? Able Learner sounds pretty nice. I'd weigh that against Open Minded from the Expanded Psionics Handbook though. Or take both if possible.
MaplessManiac620 01-01-05, 07:56 AM	Yup, I'm still around! Mantle of Obscurity. I created it for one of my characters long long ago, and then Wizards went and stole my brain (again), so it got printed in Dragon #316, where they called it the Mantle of the Mundane. +10 on hide checks, DC 14 Will save to recall any details about the wearer, 10k price tag. Dart Thrusters are pretty nifty, I'd suggest having merciful darts to go with it. That would up the damage (currently sitting at 1d4) and enable you to "take 'em back alive." Silvered ammo will also be of help, and adamantine if you can get your hands on it. Also, since it's now confirmed that there are Rakshasa and Radiant Idols in Sharn (I got Sharn for Christmas! Wheee!), holy will also help. I'd have the Dart Thruster itself be made Distant, as you might need more than the paltry 40 foot increment offered. Just a random idea, but what about specially made tanglefoot bag-bolas? Able Learner sounds pretty nice. I'd weigh that against Open Minded from the Expanded Psionics Handbook though. Or take both if possible. Sounds great, thanks again. Could you maybe post (or PM) me Dart Thruster stats? I've been searching and searching, and can't seem to find them (and I dont own Underdark:()
ThanisKartaleon 01-01-05, 08:05 AM	On less of a crunch topic, and more of a fluff area, I was looking through some character sketches for the Star Wars role-playing game, and came across the following image...I was just wondering whether or not it also fit into the Eberron feel; I think so, but wanted all of your opinions on it. Looks pretty pulpy. I personally don't get any Eberronian inspiration from him other than that, but that's just me I suppose. Maybe as an Extreme Explorer rogue type... eh.
MaplessManiac620 01-01-05, 08:13 AM	Looks pretty pulpy. I personally don't get any Eberronian inspiration from him other than that, but that's just me I suppose. Maybe as an Extreme Explorer rogue type... eh. Just lookin for opinions! BTW, what's a tanglefoot bag-bola?
ThanisKartaleon 01-01-05, 08:54 AM	BTW, what's a tanglefoot bag-bola? Something I made up off the top of my head. Take bolas, make them out of hollow gourds, and fill them with tanglefoot paste (or whatever it is). They'd do a die size less damage on impact (1d3 instead of 1d4), but then burst with all the effects of a tanglefoot bag (-2 to hit, -4 Dex, DC 15 Ref or be glued to ground, 1/2 speed on successful save, etc. etc. so on and so forth) with the addition of a free trip attempt, as per bolas. Exotic, yes, and pricey (not sure how much, but minimum of 55 gp for this expendable item), but well worth it when the mark is glued face down to the floor. I suppose the weapon could be specially made so it doesn't break, but just releases the tanglefoot mixture on impact, but you'd still have to refill it, and that's the expensive component.
ThanisKartaleon 01-01-05, 02:31 PM	I re-named [Shou Disciple] and gave it a different name and background flavor, and my DM allowed it. By the by, what name did you give it?
MaplessManiac620 01-02-05, 03:44 AM	Something I made up off the top of my head. Take bolas, make them out of hollow gourds, and fill them with tanglefoot paste (or whatever it is). They'd do a die size less damage on impact (1d3 instead of 1d4), but then burst with all the effects of a tanglefoot bag (-2 to hit, -4 Dex, DC 15 Ref or be glued to ground, 1/2 speed on successful save, etc. etc. so on and so forth) with the addition of a free trip attempt, as per bolas. Exotic, yes, and pricey (not sure how much, but minimum of 55 gp for this expendable item), but well worth it when the mark is glued face down to the floor. I suppose the weapon could be specially made so it doesn't break, but just releases the tanglefoot mixture on impact, but you'd still have to refill it, and that's the expensive component. Thats a pretty killer idea Thanis; I'll keep it in mind. By the by, what name did you give it? I was cheap and pawned off the name I gave my custom Star Wars PrC, found in my sig. I also adjusted the skill list, but with Able Learner, it doesn't matter anyway. I kind of want to change the 3rd and 5th level abilities, but I don't wanna change the class too much, you know? :P THanks again for the help... and stick around, I'll be back in 2 weeks or so when Complete Adventurer releases. ;)
MaplessManiac620 01-09-05, 09:33 PM	Alright, I've been waiting for it, and now it's here. Complete Adventurer. But The Street Warrior is terrible. See next post for new discussion
MaplessManiac620 01-10-05, 11:03 PM	Complete Adventurer has some interesting things in it. Street Fighter disappointed me. Severely. But, Vigilante seems interesting, but I'm not sure it would quite work in this concept, especially since I'm going for the Private Detevtive scheme. Spy Master, though, seems interesting as well, allowing me to go undercover if need be. Even three levels would be an interesting dip, though I doubt its worth taking unless I can get all 7. One thing, however, I really do like is Goad. Very flavorful for this guy's personality; I've been waiting for this feat. I think I need to expand this idea from one character to maybe a group of freelance (read: not House affiliated) detectives, hunters, spys, and the like. A Spymaster, Justicar, and Vigilante may fit well into this group... Would warrant a new thread! :D
MaplessManiac620 01-12-05, 10:34 PM	Based off of my last post, I've come up with some related builds that might make a pretty interesting group of Mercenaries focused on bringing the guilty to justice. Sharn Detective (Human): Urban Ranger 1/Human paragon 2/ Master Inquisitive 4/Shou Disciple 5/Citadel Elite 4/Watch Detective 4 Xen'drik Hunter (Half Giant/Jotunbrund): Ranger 4/BloodHound8/Justicar 8 Redeemer (Any): Urban Ranger 1/Hexblade4/Vigilante10/Occult Slayer 5 "The Mask" (Changeling): Bard 4/Mind Spy 5/Warshaper 4/Spymaster 7 I also had an idea to use the Mortal Hunter from the BoVD...but it came off a little too evil for this group...which would bring about some interesting group dynamics...hmm...maybe: Mortal Stalker (Any): Rouge 2/Hexblade 4/Mortal Hunter 10/Prestige Ranger 4 Just burning time, but I think this would be a very interesting group of Heroic-NPC's to throw at a grou of adventurers...especially if they've been naughty. :smirk:
MaplessManiac620 12-11-05, 08:36 PM	Well, it's been quite awhile since I've updated this thread, and there have been a few things that have given me ideas on how to update my character idea. After a long lull in my last game, we've decided to kind of 'start over' and give everyone a chance to re-design their character. We've planned a short campaign, starting at 8th level and ending at about 15th or 16th. Our group has gone over the Citadel Elite errata and find it absurd - totally destroyed the class IMHO. So we use the class as printed. Here's the streamlined build: Rogue 2/Monk 2/Master Inquisitive 4/Dark Lantern 3/Citadel Elite 5 Human: Investigate Level 1: Able Learner Monk 1: Stunning Fist Level 3: Ascetic Hunter Monk 2: Combat Reflexes Level 6: Carmedine Monk M.I. 2: Urban Tracking M.I. 4: Research Level 9: Improved Natural Attack (Unarmed) Level 12: Open Level 15: Open Carmedine Monk functions like Kung Fu Genius from Dragon - it allows me to use my Int instead of my Wis score for my Monk abilities. Helps cut down on MAD. It also allows me to meditate and use one Monk ability (like unarmed damage) at +2 levels. Kinda neat. Improved Natural Attack now works with my Unarmed Strikes, thanks to Sage Advice in a recent Dragon. Ascetic Hunter will let my Ranger and Monk levels stack for purposes of my unarmed damage and has some nifty synergy with Favored Enemy and Stunning Fist. With Master Inquisitive and Citadel Elite will give me three contacts to call upon should I need some expert advice, I find that kind of neat. I really like the idea of starting with Rogue, and maxing out UMDto use Wand of Magic Missle like a pistol. I have to balanced that with losing Urban Tracking. Though as an Master Inquisitive, I can pick it up later in the build. Anyway, I'm sure someone else out there has an idea that I've overlooked, so please post your ideas if you have anything that might be helpful.
Greegan 01-05-06, 11:35 PM	Where is this feat located, please? I like the idea...and since I'm working on a Psion/Monk at the moment, obviously this would be a terrific boon for him.
MaplessManiac620 01-06-06, 04:55 AM	Where is this feat located, please? I like the idea...and since I'm working on a Psion/Monk at the moment, obviously this would be a terrific boon for him. IIRC, It's in Heroes of Battle. It's a faction specific feat, so you'll need some DM clearance if you dont wanna join the faction.
MaplessManiac620 01-09-06, 10:43 PM	Okay, well I stuck with the Rogue levels as a start - UMD is too good to pass up. As for gear, this is what I've come up with - ideas or suggestions for what to replace or add would be neat. Wand of Magic Missile (3rd) x2 4500 Necklace of Persuasion 4500 (Acts as Circlet of Persuasion) Vest of Resistance +2 4000 Bracers of Armor +2 4000 Coat of Charisma 4000 Handy Haversack 2000 Mask of Disguise 1800 (Acts as Hat of Disguise) Wand of Cure Light Wounds 750 Everlasting Rations 350 Inquisitive's Kit 300 Masterwork Thieve's Tools 100 Manacles, 2 pair 30 Remaining Gold: 670 I also played aroud with adding the Cull Wand Essence feat and buying a Wand of Knock to use as a 'pistol'. 3d6 damage is very nice. Opinions? I also thought I saw an item in one fo the Eberron books that allows you to summon or dismiss an orb of light that hangs over your shoulder. Book and page number would be awesome - if I wasn't dreaming. Thanks everyone! I still have 4 feats open at the end of my build and have no idea what to fill them with - suggestions welcome as always!