Help: Red wizard [Archive] - Wizards Community

Help: Red wizard [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
blowdk
04-27-05, 11:36 AM im playing a lvl 21 red wizard right now.. (played it from lvl 6)

i wont to train other wizard to become red wizards. but in the the prob is that we "shifted" planes from frogotten realms to eberron. and one of the requerments to become a red wizard is that ur a human from Thay. but in eberron Thay dun exist. so i need help "change"/"fix" this my problem..
.
Malicant
04-27-05, 12:08 PM You know what this requirement means? No one not from Thay will be accepted into the super-secret-Red-Wizzard-sorority. :D

By the RAW, you have no chance of spawning more Red Wizzards.

If your character wants to take over Eberron, than this req can be ignored (as long as your GM does not disapprove) by you, 'cause you can accept into training who ever you want. Your Char should nonetheless be quite picky about whom he wishes to train. And he can of course only train specialists with a school matching his.
Salla
04-27-05, 12:22 PM ... :confused: :noway: :uh-huh: :twitch: :gah: :doh:

By the RAW, I'm not even sure you can get to Eberron from other game settings. It's in an entirely different multiverse (see the Cosmology section; it has its own planes of existance), there's no connection to FR or Greyhawk.

By the RAI*, I'm absolutely certain you're not supposed to be able to.

*Rules As Intended
Alac Luin
04-27-05, 12:33 PM ... :confused: :noway: :uh-huh: :twitch: :gah: :doh:

By the RAW, I'm not even sure you can get to Eberron from other game settings. It's in an entirely different multiverse (see the Cosmology section; it has its own planes of existance), there's no connection to FR or Greyhawk.

By the RAI*, I'm absolutely certain you're not supposed to be able to.
*Rules As Intended

It's called the plane of shadow, pg 92 ECS.
"Eberron spins within its own Material Plane, enfolded by three coexistent transitive planes: the Astral Plane, the Ethereal Plane, and the Plane of Shadow, just as in the core D&D cosmology (see Chapter 5 of the Dungeon Master's Guide)."
now we look at the Plane of Shadow itself.
from the 3.5 SRD
PLANE OF SHADOW
The Plane of Shadow is a dimly lit dimension that is both coterminous to and coexistent with the Material Plane. It overlaps the Material Plane much as the Ethereal Plane does, so a planar traveler can use the Plane of Shadow to cover great distances quickly.
The Plane of Shadow is also coterminous to other planes. With the right spell, a character can use the Plane of Shadow to visit other realities.
Emphasis mine

Seems to me it was obvious that it is indeed intended to have a connection available.
ThatOneMonk
04-27-05, 12:38 PM Alac is right. In the Planar Handbook, it discusses how it's possible, though unlikely, to reach an alternate material plane through either the Astral Plane or the Plane of Shadow. I once planned a campaign where they regularly jumped between different planes, including material planes. Hella fun :P
Alac Luin
04-27-05, 12:45 PM Now, back to topic.
Wasn't this PrC re written in a core book? Complete Arcane maybe?
I’d say talk to your DM about dropping this requirement.

There is nothing magical in the Mulon blood that lends itself to being a Red Wizard.
This is something that helps show the racism that is prevalent in Thay society, only the best of the best will be taught the Red Wizard secrets.

Since you are now cut off from your society and at Epic levels, you are the one establishing the rules on who gets taught the ways of the red wizards.
Who’s gonna stop you? Sazz Tam?
ThatOneMonk
04-27-05, 12:47 PM Who’s gonna stop you?

no joke, you'll be up there with Vol. Come to think of it, she probably wouldn't think too kindly of you...so, watch your back!
CzarGarrett
04-27-05, 12:55 PM I think it is possible, ignoring the why and how of a Red Wizard getting to Eberron, for a small coven (for now) of Red Wizards.

1 Red Wizard, especially more of a LN-ish one, could train students in his specialized school, and a bit in 1 or 2 of the other schools he can still do. If he partners up with one or two other specialist wizards in schools he doesn't go for, and take on students, within a few years, I could see a mini-group of Red Wizards at about 20 members.

I think its up to the DM to work with the player and develop a method of Eberroned Red Wizards. Maybe drop the Thayan requirement and add some sort of testing instead, or just stick with one nation/region of Khorvaire. Tweak it a bit so that you can concievably have the Red Wizards as a legitmate organization (probably in conflict with at least the Aurum and some of Dragonmarked Houses) sometime in the next 15-20 years.
Master of shaarat'khesh
04-27-05, 04:09 PM Not to be nit picky but I have a question. I have played FR since it first came out, in fact I have almost everything ever published for or about FR. I DMed and played it up until I heard that Eberron was comming. I still keep up with things dealing with FR mostly out of habit so I am more than familiar with the setting.

My question is this. How do you bring a FR character into Eberron (or any other setting) especially being a wizard and explain how they have any ability to cast their spells in this unfamiliar land?

See Mystra the God of magic in FR allows access to the weave for wizards and socerers and to an extent even the clerics. Magic works differently here in Eberron, there is no mystical weave of magic. There is also a different pantheon and there is no Mystra. The way wizards and such have power in FR is by her granting it. If they have no access to the power source then how do you legitimately explain the characters power?

I don't mean to sound trite and I do not want to let this get ugly I really am curious and I want to know.
Kid SixXx
04-28-05, 09:43 AM I don't mean to sound trite and I do not want to let this get ugly I really am curious and I want to know.

Please, Dear Lord. Not a discussion of the Weave on this board.

The Weave is absent on the outer planes, yet the FR rules allow for spellcasting in the planes where technically arcane & divine spellcasters from Faerun should be absolutely powerless.

Just rule that the Faerun wizard is somehow trained to be able to attune himself to the new metaphysics and can manipulate magic as he normally would otherwise.

There is nothing magical about Mulan blood, however RW's seem to be specifically attuned to the land in Thay just as the Rashemen Witches are, so technically that would gimp the RW's Circle Magic feats even if the RW manages to find followers.

You guys really shoulda rerolled native PC's and saved yourselves some trouble. ;)
Beleriphon
04-28-05, 09:54 AM I don't mean to sound trite and I do not want to let this get ugly I really am curious and I want to know.

Well the basic premise is that Mystra is the raw power that fuels magic. She doesn't actually grant spellcasters power, but rather provides the batteries for that power. The hitch is being the godess of magic she gets to yank the batteries whenever she wants.
Gurv
04-28-05, 10:20 AM If the DM is allowing characters from FR into Eberron, then any discussion of whether that is possible or not is moot. Obviously, in this particular campaign, it is.

However, since this DM is allowing things that are not well supported otherwise, it is up to him to make these decisions. There is no official rule on how leaving FR for Eberron affects spellcasters, because there are no official rules for them doing so. Everything becomes entirely house-ruled once that has been permitted.

In order to decide whether Red Wizards are possible on Eberron, consider why the prerequisite exists. As others have said, it is not because the people of Thay have special powers. It is because they are an arrogant, power-hungry people who will not share their secrets with those that their bigoted attitudes consider unworthy. The prerequisite exists because the organization won't let people of other nation in.

With no organization to prevent you from spilling the secrets, the requirement basically goes away. However, considering that a highly secretive, bigoted organization accepted you into their ranks, it stands to reason that you must on some level agree with those sentiments. Good roleplaying would suggest that your character would feel the people of Eberron are not as good as the people of your homeland, and you should question breaking a tradition that you have sworn to uphold.

Beyond that, there is the question of whether you are even capable of teaching the PrC to others. You don't have access to the resources the Red Wizards have, you can't show your students the ancient texts that you learned from. A scientist dropped on a peaceful primitive could teach the people a lot of things, but without the trappings of his former life, he can't teach them to build computers. In the same way, you could teach people to be wizards because what you need is available in Eberron, but teaching them the advanced practices of a Red Wizard may not be possible.
Solidcobra
04-28-05, 11:38 AM Vol is level 14 or something. o_O Someone (read: a certain epic char in a setting where epic is level 12 and up) needs to meet the tarrasque. A ninja tarrasque with dimensional anchors in a 10^N ft radius.
Gez
04-28-05, 04:27 PM Red Wizards in Eberron:

There are basically two ways to have Red Wizards in Eberron. The first is what your DM did, and have an actual Red Wizard of Thay travel to Eberron from Faerūn.

The second consists in adapting the class' background (and, if needs be, its class abilities) a bit to make it fit Eberron and be a native PrC. So, instead of "Red Wizard of Thay", it could be "Specialist Wizard of Arcanix" or something like that. Prestige classes are there to give flavor to a setting, do not hesitate to use them for that, by modifying the pregenerated flavor of the class to better fit the setting.

Anyway, how could an actual Red Wizard of Thay recruit more Red Wizards from Khorvaire?

Obviously, he won't have Thayans available. The reason the class is restricted to Thayans is the RW's strong racism -- let's face it, they're completely bigotted. It isn't because of some sort of mystical quality of being born in Thay, it's just because Red Wizards would not want to recruit someone without the proper racial, ethnical, and cultural background; and even if they are more progressive than their fellows and want to, peer pressure would stop them anyway. The Zulkirs would not let a rogue Red Wizard spread their organization's magical secrets out.

There, for your character, it's different. You are, presumably, alone in Eberron. No other Red Wizards to watch you, no Zulkir to obey to. You can do what you want.
blowdk
04-28-05, 05:22 PM Thx for all the good reply's.-- really helped...

Thx...:D

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
blowdk 04-27-05, 11:36 AM	im playing a lvl 21 red wizard right now.. (played it from lvl 6) i wont to train other wizard to become red wizards. but in the the prob is that we "shifted" planes from frogotten realms to eberron. and one of the requerments to become a red wizard is that ur a human from Thay. but in eberron Thay dun exist. so i need help "change"/"fix" this my problem.. .
Malicant 04-27-05, 12:08 PM	You know what this requirement means? No one not from Thay will be accepted into the super-secret-Red-Wizzard-sorority. :D By the RAW, you have no chance of spawning more Red Wizzards. If your character wants to take over Eberron, than this req can be ignored (as long as your GM does not disapprove) by you, 'cause you can accept into training who ever you want. Your Char should nonetheless be quite picky about whom he wishes to train. And he can of course only train specialists with a school matching his.
Salla 04-27-05, 12:22 PM	... :confused: :noway: :uh-huh: :twitch: :gah: :doh: By the RAW, I'm not even sure you can get to Eberron from other game settings. It's in an entirely different multiverse (see the Cosmology section; it has its own planes of existance), there's no connection to FR or Greyhawk. By the RAI, I'm absolutely certain you're not supposed to be able to. Rules As Intended
Alac Luin 04-27-05, 12:33 PM	... :confused: :noway: :uh-huh: :twitch: :gah: :doh: By the RAW, I'm not even sure you can get to Eberron from other game settings. It's in an entirely different multiverse (see the Cosmology section; it has its own planes of existance), there's no connection to FR or Greyhawk. By the RAI, I'm absolutely certain you're not supposed to be able to. Rules As Intended It's called the plane of shadow, pg 92 ECS. "Eberron spins within its own Material Plane, enfolded by three coexistent transitive planes: the Astral Plane, the Ethereal Plane, and the Plane of Shadow, just as in the core D&D cosmology (see Chapter 5 of the Dungeon Master's Guide)." now we look at the Plane of Shadow itself. from the 3.5 SRD PLANE OF SHADOW The Plane of Shadow is a dimly lit dimension that is both coterminous to and coexistent with the Material Plane. It overlaps the Material Plane much as the Ethereal Plane does, so a planar traveler can use the Plane of Shadow to cover great distances quickly. The Plane of Shadow is also coterminous to other planes. With the right spell, a character can use the Plane of Shadow to visit other realities. Emphasis mine Seems to me it was obvious that it is indeed intended to have a connection available.
ThatOneMonk 04-27-05, 12:38 PM	Alac is right. In the Planar Handbook, it discusses how it's possible, though unlikely, to reach an alternate material plane through either the Astral Plane or the Plane of Shadow. I once planned a campaign where they regularly jumped between different planes, including material planes. Hella fun :P
Alac Luin 04-27-05, 12:45 PM	Now, back to topic. Wasn't this PrC re written in a core book? Complete Arcane maybe? I’d say talk to your DM about dropping this requirement. There is nothing magical in the Mulon blood that lends itself to being a Red Wizard. This is something that helps show the racism that is prevalent in Thay society, only the best of the best will be taught the Red Wizard secrets. Since you are now cut off from your society and at Epic levels, you are the one establishing the rules on who gets taught the ways of the red wizards. Who’s gonna stop you? Sazz Tam?
ThatOneMonk 04-27-05, 12:47 PM	Who’s gonna stop you? no joke, you'll be up there with Vol. Come to think of it, she probably wouldn't think too kindly of you...so, watch your back!
CzarGarrett 04-27-05, 12:55 PM	I think it is possible, ignoring the why and how of a Red Wizard getting to Eberron, for a small coven (for now) of Red Wizards. 1 Red Wizard, especially more of a LN-ish one, could train students in his specialized school, and a bit in 1 or 2 of the other schools he can still do. If he partners up with one or two other specialist wizards in schools he doesn't go for, and take on students, within a few years, I could see a mini-group of Red Wizards at about 20 members. I think its up to the DM to work with the player and develop a method of Eberroned Red Wizards. Maybe drop the Thayan requirement and add some sort of testing instead, or just stick with one nation/region of Khorvaire. Tweak it a bit so that you can concievably have the Red Wizards as a legitmate organization (probably in conflict with at least the Aurum and some of Dragonmarked Houses) sometime in the next 15-20 years.
Master of shaarat'khesh 04-27-05, 04:09 PM	Not to be nit picky but I have a question. I have played FR since it first came out, in fact I have almost everything ever published for or about FR. I DMed and played it up until I heard that Eberron was comming. I still keep up with things dealing with FR mostly out of habit so I am more than familiar with the setting. My question is this. How do you bring a FR character into Eberron (or any other setting) especially being a wizard and explain how they have any ability to cast their spells in this unfamiliar land? See Mystra the God of magic in FR allows access to the weave for wizards and socerers and to an extent even the clerics. Magic works differently here in Eberron, there is no mystical weave of magic. There is also a different pantheon and there is no Mystra. The way wizards and such have power in FR is by her granting it. If they have no access to the power source then how do you legitimately explain the characters power? I don't mean to sound trite and I do not want to let this get ugly I really am curious and I want to know.
Kid SixXx 04-28-05, 09:43 AM	I don't mean to sound trite and I do not want to let this get ugly I really am curious and I want to know. Please, Dear Lord. Not a discussion of the Weave on this board. The Weave is absent on the outer planes, yet the FR rules allow for spellcasting in the planes where technically arcane & divine spellcasters from Faerun should be absolutely powerless. Just rule that the Faerun wizard is somehow trained to be able to attune himself to the new metaphysics and can manipulate magic as he normally would otherwise. There is nothing magical about Mulan blood, however RW's seem to be specifically attuned to the land in Thay just as the Rashemen Witches are, so technically that would gimp the RW's Circle Magic feats even if the RW manages to find followers. You guys really shoulda rerolled native PC's and saved yourselves some trouble. ;)
Beleriphon 04-28-05, 09:54 AM	I don't mean to sound trite and I do not want to let this get ugly I really am curious and I want to know. Well the basic premise is that Mystra is the raw power that fuels magic. She doesn't actually grant spellcasters power, but rather provides the batteries for that power. The hitch is being the godess of magic she gets to yank the batteries whenever she wants.
Gurv 04-28-05, 10:20 AM	If the DM is allowing characters from FR into Eberron, then any discussion of whether that is possible or not is moot. Obviously, in this particular campaign, it is. However, since this DM is allowing things that are not well supported otherwise, it is up to him to make these decisions. There is no official rule on how leaving FR for Eberron affects spellcasters, because there are no official rules for them doing so. Everything becomes entirely house-ruled once that has been permitted. In order to decide whether Red Wizards are possible on Eberron, consider why the prerequisite exists. As others have said, it is not because the people of Thay have special powers. It is because they are an arrogant, power-hungry people who will not share their secrets with those that their bigoted attitudes consider unworthy. The prerequisite exists because the organization won't let people of other nation in. With no organization to prevent you from spilling the secrets, the requirement basically goes away. However, considering that a highly secretive, bigoted organization accepted you into their ranks, it stands to reason that you must on some level agree with those sentiments. Good roleplaying would suggest that your character would feel the people of Eberron are not as good as the people of your homeland, and you should question breaking a tradition that you have sworn to uphold. Beyond that, there is the question of whether you are even capable of teaching the PrC to others. You don't have access to the resources the Red Wizards have, you can't show your students the ancient texts that you learned from. A scientist dropped on a peaceful primitive could teach the people a lot of things, but without the trappings of his former life, he can't teach them to build computers. In the same way, you could teach people to be wizards because what you need is available in Eberron, but teaching them the advanced practices of a Red Wizard may not be possible.
Solidcobra 04-28-05, 11:38 AM	Vol is level 14 or something. o_O Someone (read: a certain epic char in a setting where epic is level 12 and up) needs to meet the tarrasque. A ninja tarrasque with dimensional anchors in a 10^N ft radius.
Gez 04-28-05, 04:27 PM	Red Wizards in Eberron: There are basically two ways to have Red Wizards in Eberron. The first is what your DM did, and have an actual Red Wizard of Thay travel to Eberron from Faerūn. The second consists in adapting the class' background (and, if needs be, its class abilities) a bit to make it fit Eberron and be a native PrC. So, instead of "Red Wizard of Thay", it could be "Specialist Wizard of Arcanix" or something like that. Prestige classes are there to give flavor to a setting, do not hesitate to use them for that, by modifying the pregenerated flavor of the class to better fit the setting. Anyway, how could an actual Red Wizard of Thay recruit more Red Wizards from Khorvaire? Obviously, he won't have Thayans available. The reason the class is restricted to Thayans is the RW's strong racism -- let's face it, they're completely bigotted. It isn't because of some sort of mystical quality of being born in Thay, it's just because Red Wizards would not want to recruit someone without the proper racial, ethnical, and cultural background; and even if they are more progressive than their fellows and want to, peer pressure would stop them anyway. The Zulkirs would not let a rogue Red Wizard spread their organization's magical secrets out. There, for your character, it's different. You are, presumably, alone in Eberron. No other Red Wizards to watch you, no Zulkir to obey to. You can do what you want.
blowdk 04-28-05, 05:22 PM	Thx for all the good reply's.-- really helped... Thx...:D