Here we go again [Archive] - Wizards Community

Here we go again [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Lazaro
03-15-07, 06:03 PM I've begun running a new campaign and have few questions for the you, the public.

My group likes the concept of action points, but do not like the fact they only get more when they level. Would it be wrong of to house rule that
APs "recharge" after every session? How can I get my players to use action points for than modifing their attack rolls?

I've gone over the campaign setting and passed out handouts, but no one in my group seems to be able that Eberron is A)seperate from the Great Wheel (ex: the cleric in the party used Plane Shift to try to go celestia), and B)that alignment is more shade of grey than "You are NG, Here's how you HAVE to act".(ex: the cleric mentioned above recently had his alignmet changed to CN, was CG, (another stroy in it's self), he had agreed to to join an NPC spellcaster and the rest of the group on a mission to find an old friend. The NPC had offered everyone in group a 5k reward for helping, the cleric (a devote follower of Dol Arrah) said payment was not nessary and to donate his share to mother church. Well, when they reached their destination they found the keep was under siege by lizardfolk. The NPC said he would go and bring back the local militia and that PC's should help the surviors fiend of the attacks until he returned. Well no one had a problem with this until the cleric said "Screw this! I'm not getting paid enoguh to go on a suicide mission!" after which he used plane shift, his character wound teleporting to Irian.
When asked why his cleric left the others to fiend for themselves, he said "I looked up my new alignment in the PHB and that's how it said for me to run it. I'm now only looking out for myself, and if they want me to help fiend off lizardfolk than they better pay me good to do it!"

How can I fix this? How do I better explain alignment? Why am I picturing myself shooting players with a hammer gun? Do you think there would be any way to work this player back in?

P.S. Well after the game I found out that the cleric intends to planeshift from Irian, back to Eberron. He intends to confont the NPC that hired them and challange him to duel, if he does not accept he'll attack him anyway. The reason behind this is on there way to the keep the NPC has shown he has some magic power (identify, detect magic, etc), but the cleric believes he's been holding back his true power and could have easily helped clear out the lizards. So he wants to duel him to force him to use his "stronger" magic, but as said earlier if the npc declines he'll attack anyway just prove that if anything the npc is coward and that the group shouldn't follow him.
Korhal IV
03-15-07, 07:47 PM After a thorough reading of your post and some deep contemplation, I have arrived at the inevitable conclusion that the cleric's player is a gigantic moron. Shooting your player(s) with a hammer gun would be three steps in the right direction.

I would have another talk with the players about how you want this game to be different from all the others. Emphasize that alignment is a set of guidelines, not absolute rules, and use a graph or something as an example (fill out the one at www.politicalcompass.org - it gives you a nice visual aid, if you swap in good/evil/lawful/chaotic for the various bits of political jibber-jabber).

Particularly, talk with the cleric's behavior. Tell him how he's not making the game fun for others (particularly you) and ask him to rein it in.

If all else fails, maybe this is just a bad deal for the group. They'd be better off playing something else.

In the meantime, take a hard look at what *you* have been doing. When you changed the cleric's alignment, did his player think it was unwarranted? Did you make the game less fun for him in some way? His behavior is classically passive-aggressive - maybe he's not having fun but he doesn't want to have a confrontation with you over it (or thinks this is more amusing than a confrontation). As DM, your fun is important, but so is the fun of your players - can you find a happy medium of a campaign where you all are?
Lazaro
03-15-07, 08:10 PM In the meantime, take a hard look at what *you* have been doing. When you changed the cleric's alignment, did his player think it was unwarranted? Did you make the game less fun for him in some way? His behavior is classically passive-aggressive - maybe he's not having fun but he doesn't want to have a confrontation with you over it (or thinks this is more amusing than a confrontation). As DM, your fun is important, but so is the fun of your players - can you find a happy medium of a campaign where you all are?

When his alignment changed it was warranted and he agreed it was as well. What lead to this change was two-fold. First, he planned to kill the other two PC's because they were "mentally unstable" (they had aquired taint during their last last adventure, and developed mental symptoms). His warning to the group was literally "If you do any thing that would threaten me, the mission, or if you're mental health deteriorates farther I'll kill you myself.
Later, after the fighter of group died in a heroic battle again "Sea Devils", he animated his corpse into a zombie, during the funeral. The wizard in the group has a phobia of undead, and both the cleric and fighter knew. The fighter thought it would be funny to have himself animated at the funeral and chase the mourners around.
Shady314
03-15-07, 08:36 PM I don't think he's acting much like a cleric of Dol Arrah. Let him start this duel then have all his spells fail because he's totally lost it and is acting evilly or at least not upholding any of Dol Arrah's tenets. Then let the NPC beat him down. Yes I know he can be CN and a cleric to Dol Arrah but he's abandoning innocents to die and expecting cash rewards at every turn. Now he is going to attack an NPC that is innocent and even if he isn't innocent (don't know what you've got cooked up) the cleric has no way of knowing beyond this insane suspicion. Alternatively let him beat the crap out of this NPC (maybe the NPC refuses to defend himself, make the NPC much weaker than the player or something) then have him lose all his spells and fall to CE. Perhaps be arrested.

But yes talk to the player and see if anything is up. Perhaps he'd like a new character of his old alignment. Remind him CN is not insanity. Total insanity is not a playable style of character in any RPG (I know of). Also warn his behavior is erratic and bordering on insane and there will be logical consequences. If he stills continues then use the above idea. :devil:

Perhaps you can pull some sort of a twist where HE has been tained much more than the other two and it was hidden somehow.

Or just shoot him with a nail gun. Players shape up or ship out really quickly when you do that.
Splendide
03-15-07, 08:50 PM Send the boys down Korranberg way. :devil:
Syltorian
03-15-07, 09:24 PM Like Khoral and Shady said: talk about this to the player, as that is where the problem is. He needs to be aware that his character's behaviour will influence his alignment, not the other way round. Alignment is not a mind-affecting, compulsion effect. Tell him to leave alignment to you: he should just play his character; you'll be judging whether he is harmed by Unholy Blight or not.

If you have to, though it could lead to some confrontations during such judgements, just tell players to erase their alignments, and keep your own secret list, updating it as they go along. After all, especially in Eberron the characters themselves might be quite surprised to find that they are evil when they thought they were good (and killed all the lycanthropes to cure the evil plague).

Tell him that what matters most to his cleric is his goddess, not some kind of alignment. And, like Shady says, he is currently not only ignoring his goddess' tenets, but actually contravening them. He is getting dangerously close to the Mockery, or at the very best the Traveler. And it would require a self-delusion in dire need of Jorasco care if he can still seriously convince himself he is serving Dol Arrah. I agree with Shady that this seems more Tainted than CN.

That's if he is really misunderstanding the concept of alignment. If he is doing this on purpose and wants to challenge you, find out why - was there a real-life falling out? Is he bored with the campaign? And from there, either react to that (if it's justified) or boot him out of the campaign (if it is purely being passive-aggressive or a challenge). Perhaps consult privately with the other players, first; they might know some parts of this puzzle which you have overlooked, and could help you help him.

In the game itself? It would be easy to have him never meet the NPC and start any trouble. Plane Shift is going to get him 5d% away from his desired destination. If your lizardfolk are in Q'Barra, that can mean into the sea, into the lair of the half-fiendish Black dragon (none recommended, as that would be spiteful), or simply into the jungle and several days from finding his way out. By which time the PCs might have become heros by rescuing the defenders. That way, he'll be forceably calmed down for a moment.

If he does find the NPC? Play the guilt card. Let him kill or severely maim the utterly unexpecting and defenseless NPC, just like Shady says. Come up with some later effects: the militia doesn't get summoned, the defenders are overwhelmed and slaughtered, the NPC has a family who might be there to witness the murder; the Sentinel Marshals receive an arrest warrant for him. Maybe he'll get to see the errors of his ways. Maybe not, though.

I would not let the NPC win, since that will just prove the player that he was right - and that the NPC was indeed stronger than he wanted to appear. While PCs are definetly allowed to have their suspicions and even act on them, this seems unwarranted and crazy, and definetly out-of-character for a cleric of Dol Arrah.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Lazaro 03-15-07, 06:03 PM	I've begun running a new campaign and have few questions for the you, the public. My group likes the concept of action points, but do not like the fact they only get more when they level. Would it be wrong of to house rule that APs "recharge" after every session? How can I get my players to use action points for than modifing their attack rolls? I've gone over the campaign setting and passed out handouts, but no one in my group seems to be able that Eberron is A)seperate from the Great Wheel (ex: the cleric in the party used Plane Shift to try to go celestia), and B)that alignment is more shade of grey than "You are NG, Here's how you HAVE to act".(ex: the cleric mentioned above recently had his alignmet changed to CN, was CG, (another stroy in it's self), he had agreed to to join an NPC spellcaster and the rest of the group on a mission to find an old friend. The NPC had offered everyone in group a 5k reward for helping, the cleric (a devote follower of Dol Arrah) said payment was not nessary and to donate his share to mother church. Well, when they reached their destination they found the keep was under siege by lizardfolk. The NPC said he would go and bring back the local militia and that PC's should help the surviors fiend of the attacks until he returned. Well no one had a problem with this until the cleric said "Screw this! I'm not getting paid enoguh to go on a suicide mission!" after which he used plane shift, his character wound teleporting to Irian. When asked why his cleric left the others to fiend for themselves, he said "I looked up my new alignment in the PHB and that's how it said for me to run it. I'm now only looking out for myself, and if they want me to help fiend off lizardfolk than they better pay me good to do it!" How can I fix this? How do I better explain alignment? Why am I picturing myself shooting players with a hammer gun? Do you think there would be any way to work this player back in? P.S. Well after the game I found out that the cleric intends to planeshift from Irian, back to Eberron. He intends to confont the NPC that hired them and challange him to duel, if he does not accept he'll attack him anyway. The reason behind this is on there way to the keep the NPC has shown he has some magic power (identify, detect magic, etc), but the cleric believes he's been holding back his true power and could have easily helped clear out the lizards. So he wants to duel him to force him to use his "stronger" magic, but as said earlier if the npc declines he'll attack anyway just prove that if anything the npc is coward and that the group shouldn't follow him.
Korhal IV 03-15-07, 07:47 PM	After a thorough reading of your post and some deep contemplation, I have arrived at the inevitable conclusion that the cleric's player is a gigantic moron. Shooting your player(s) with a hammer gun would be three steps in the right direction. I would have another talk with the players about how you want this game to be different from all the others. Emphasize that alignment is a set of guidelines, not absolute rules, and use a graph or something as an example (fill out the one at www.politicalcompass.org - it gives you a nice visual aid, if you swap in good/evil/lawful/chaotic for the various bits of political jibber-jabber). Particularly, talk with the cleric's behavior. Tell him how he's not making the game fun for others (particularly you) and ask him to rein it in. If all else fails, maybe this is just a bad deal for the group. They'd be better off playing something else. In the meantime, take a hard look at what you have been doing. When you changed the cleric's alignment, did his player think it was unwarranted? Did you make the game less fun for him in some way? His behavior is classically passive-aggressive - maybe he's not having fun but he doesn't want to have a confrontation with you over it (or thinks this is more amusing than a confrontation). As DM, your fun is important, but so is the fun of your players - can you find a happy medium of a campaign where you all are?
Lazaro 03-15-07, 08:10 PM	In the meantime, take a hard look at what you have been doing. When you changed the cleric's alignment, did his player think it was unwarranted? Did you make the game less fun for him in some way? His behavior is classically passive-aggressive - maybe he's not having fun but he doesn't want to have a confrontation with you over it (or thinks this is more amusing than a confrontation). As DM, your fun is important, but so is the fun of your players - can you find a happy medium of a campaign where you all are? When his alignment changed it was warranted and he agreed it was as well. What lead to this change was two-fold. First, he planned to kill the other two PC's because they were "mentally unstable" (they had aquired taint during their last last adventure, and developed mental symptoms). His warning to the group was literally "If you do any thing that would threaten me, the mission, or if you're mental health deteriorates farther I'll kill you myself. Later, after the fighter of group died in a heroic battle again "Sea Devils", he animated his corpse into a zombie, during the funeral. The wizard in the group has a phobia of undead, and both the cleric and fighter knew. The fighter thought it would be funny to have himself animated at the funeral and chase the mourners around.
Shady314 03-15-07, 08:36 PM	I don't think he's acting much like a cleric of Dol Arrah. Let him start this duel then have all his spells fail because he's totally lost it and is acting evilly or at least not upholding any of Dol Arrah's tenets. Then let the NPC beat him down. Yes I know he can be CN and a cleric to Dol Arrah but he's abandoning innocents to die and expecting cash rewards at every turn. Now he is going to attack an NPC that is innocent and even if he isn't innocent (don't know what you've got cooked up) the cleric has no way of knowing beyond this insane suspicion. Alternatively let him beat the crap out of this NPC (maybe the NPC refuses to defend himself, make the NPC much weaker than the player or something) then have him lose all his spells and fall to CE. Perhaps be arrested. But yes talk to the player and see if anything is up. Perhaps he'd like a new character of his old alignment. Remind him CN is not insanity. Total insanity is not a playable style of character in any RPG (I know of). Also warn his behavior is erratic and bordering on insane and there will be logical consequences. If he stills continues then use the above idea. :devil: Perhaps you can pull some sort of a twist where HE has been tained much more than the other two and it was hidden somehow. Or just shoot him with a nail gun. Players shape up or ship out really quickly when you do that.
Splendide 03-15-07, 08:50 PM	Send the boys down Korranberg way. :devil:
Syltorian 03-15-07, 09:24 PM	Like Khoral and Shady said: talk about this to the player, as that is where the problem is. He needs to be aware that his character's behaviour will influence his alignment, not the other way round. Alignment is not a mind-affecting, compulsion effect. Tell him to leave alignment to you: he should just play his character; you'll be judging whether he is harmed by Unholy Blight or not. If you have to, though it could lead to some confrontations during such judgements, just tell players to erase their alignments, and keep your own secret list, updating it as they go along. After all, especially in Eberron the characters themselves might be quite surprised to find that they are evil when they thought they were good (and killed all the lycanthropes to cure the evil plague). Tell him that what matters most to his cleric is his goddess, not some kind of alignment. And, like Shady says, he is currently not only ignoring his goddess' tenets, but actually contravening them. He is getting dangerously close to the Mockery, or at the very best the Traveler. And it would require a self-delusion in dire need of Jorasco care if he can still seriously convince himself he is serving Dol Arrah. I agree with Shady that this seems more Tainted than CN. That's if he is really misunderstanding the concept of alignment. If he is doing this on purpose and wants to challenge you, find out why - was there a real-life falling out? Is he bored with the campaign? And from there, either react to that (if it's justified) or boot him out of the campaign (if it is purely being passive-aggressive or a challenge). Perhaps consult privately with the other players, first; they might know some parts of this puzzle which you have overlooked, and could help you help him. In the game itself? It would be easy to have him never meet the NPC and start any trouble. Plane Shift is going to get him 5d% away from his desired destination. If your lizardfolk are in Q'Barra, that can mean into the sea, into the lair of the half-fiendish Black dragon (none recommended, as that would be spiteful), or simply into the jungle and several days from finding his way out. By which time the PCs might have become heros by rescuing the defenders. That way, he'll be forceably calmed down for a moment. If he does find the NPC? Play the guilt card. Let him kill or severely maim the utterly unexpecting and defenseless NPC, just like Shady says. Come up with some later effects: the militia doesn't get summoned, the defenders are overwhelmed and slaughtered, the NPC has a family who might be there to witness the murder; the Sentinel Marshals receive an arrest warrant for him. Maybe he'll get to see the errors of his ways. Maybe not, though. I would not let the NPC win, since that will just prove the player that he was right - and that the NPC was indeed stronger than he wanted to appear. While PCs are definetly allowed to have their suspicions and even act on them, this seems unwarranted and crazy, and definetly out-of-character for a cleric of Dol Arrah.