hey Keith, what drove the Flame to take over Thrane? [Archive] - Wizards Community

hey Keith, what drove the Flame to take over Thrane? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Charles Phipps
01-10-07, 11:17 PM We're curious over in the "Five Things every Thrane knows" thread. I like the idea that the Flame Church stepped in when the country was on the verge of anarchy and open revolt from attacks from three sides and incompetent management of the war.

I liked destroying the usual assumption the Church was power hungry.
Volaran
01-11-07, 03:20 AM I'm not Keith of course, but my understanding is that the people of Thrane were the deciding factor. The Church had been powerful in Thrane since its inception, and while both the Church and people supported Thalin's claim to the Thone of Galifar, confidence in his heirs was...somewhat less.
Syltorian
01-11-07, 07:06 AM Wasn't it Thalin himself who made the Church his successors in his will? The last ruling King of Thrane was an ardent believer in the Silver Flame. He helped start the Last War because he believed that the Silver Flame should become the prominent religion throughout Galifar.

It would make some sense for him to give the kingdom over to the Church on his death - bequests of lands were not unusual to the medieval Church, either, and the admittedly forged "gift of Constantine" - where the Emperor Constantine was said to have left Rome and Italy to the Pope - could be a reality in Eberron.

Of course, if you want more intrigue, maybe Thalin was influenced by his clerical advisors, or the Church forged the documents, or promised he would join with the Flame if he bequested the nation to them - but he might also have had the idea himself. The Church, in a somewhat naive and idealist view of things, might not have had to do anything at all.

It is also possible that the Flame (as opposed to its Church) put that idea into Thalin's head (or it might have been the Dark Flame, to tempt and corrupt the Church with temporal and secular power); in this case, its reasons have still to play out. It might have a plan leading to something way down in the future.
Hellcow
01-11-07, 02:21 PM I'm not Keith of course, but my understanding is that the people of Thrane were the deciding factor.
I don't have The Five Nations at hand, and if Thalin gave the nation to the church in his will, that's where I'd expect it to be covered. Certainly Thalin was an ardent supporter of the faith, and one of his primary motivations in seeking the throne of Galifar was to create a united kingdom governed by the just principles of the Flame. Whether or not Thalin stipulated it in his will, it's certainly more the case that the people gave Thrane to the Church as opposed to the Church "seizing" it; it was a popular decision.
Psionycx
01-20-07, 01:14 AM In the real world one of the most famous (to historians) forged documents in history is The Donation of Constantine.

This document, supposedly the will of Constantine, the first Christian Roman Emperor, grants the eastern half of the Roman Empire to the Emperor ruling from Constantinople, and the western half (most of Western Europe) to the Roman Catholic Church. It was based on the supposed authority of this document that they Church claimed the right to crown rulers in Europe, particularly the Holy Roman Emperor, for centuries.

Since the Church of the Silver Flame seems analogous, maybe they've got a will (forged or real) of Thalin that grants Thrane (and maybe even the Galifar throne) to the Church?
Syltorian
01-20-07, 07:27 AM Since the Church of the Silver Flame seems analogous, maybe they've got a will (forged or real) of Thalin that grants Thrane (and maybe even the Galifar throne) to the Church?

That's what I was thinking about when I mentioned the "gift" of Constantine above. I couldn't remember the word "donation" for some reason. It's definetly an interesting little forgery. :D

I would actually have such a will in my campaign - though Hellcow is right that it is not covered in Five Nations or anywhere else.

Personally, I would think the Will - the Donation of Thalin? - is genuine. Thalin believed deeply in the Church and the Silver Flame, enough to break with all other traditions of Galifar (and refusing the succession rights of the Queen of Cyre). There have been other occasions where entire empires or kingdoms were left to somebody else in a will. That's how Rome obtained Pergamon, for example. And many of the nobility left large territories to the Church in their wills to assure themselves a place in heaven (anyone seen the Blackadder episode?)

I cannot see the actual Church consenting to forging a will, not with the moderates in power. But it would be interesting to see how Jaela would react if it turned out somebody else forged it. Or, as in Blackadder, they manipulated Thalin into signing by promising him something equivalent to Saint status.
Slayen
01-20-07, 11:01 AM Well, I just went over every resource I've got about both Thrane and the Silver Flame, and I can't find any thing about Thalin's will. Just that the people decided to reject Daslin's claim and place the Church above the throne.

There is a brief mention in Five Nations, that the cardinals convinced the people of to do this but they don't go into any real detail.

Perhaps this is something that could be covered in a future Dragonshard? (that is when WotC finally gets back to putting them up again)
Psionycx
01-20-07, 11:12 AM Well, it's obviously not valid in most people's eyes regardless of whether it was forged or real.

In the case of the Donation of Constantine, belief in the document's validity was based on a Medieval misunderstanding of the nature of the Roman Empire. It was not, in fact, a feudal state and not technically Constantine's property, even though he was the emperor, in the way that later Medieval kingdoms (but not the Holy Roman Empire) were property of their kings. Traditionally emperors could name their own successors, but not transfer ownership of the Empire.

Likewise, Thalin was really a governor-prince under Galifar not the owner of Thrane. So it wouldn't have been his to grant to anyone. This is one of those cases where the lawfulness of the Church entered questionable territory. Even if Thalin gave them Thrane his right to do so was open to question. The Church stepped outside the law in supporting breaking the Galifar succession in the first place.

Nonethless, such issues tend to fade with time, much like the question of whether Constantine could have really given the Empire to the Church. So it's reasonable that the Church of the Silver Flame has a Donation of Thalin that purports to make them owners of Thrane, and they use that authority to rule and crown the figurehead monarch they still have. Few outside Thrane, and probably many within Thrane like Queen Diani, don't buy it.
Syltorian
01-20-07, 12:47 PM The governor-prince does not own the land. But, in my opinion, the King of Galifar does. Unlike in the Roman Emperor, who directly owned only the Imperial estates. Though these were extremely large, did not include all of the "Donation" by far, and above all, not the City of Rome, safe for some patches.

The Dragonmarked Houses pay rent to the crown, after all, for using it. Boranel, I think it was said at some points, hands out dangerous territory near Droaam to adventurers willing to settle it. Constantine could not have done that legally, except, again, with the Imperial Estates or by conjuring up a treason charge against the owner, after which the estates could be confiscated.

And Thalin, along with all his siblings and successors, considered himself the rightful King of Galifar.

Diani would be faced with a rather awkward choice, if we accept the hypothetical Donation of Thalin, and accept it as genuine. She can challenge it on the grounds that he did not have the right to do this, because he did not own the land. That would be admitting that he was not really King - and hence, that she isn't Queen.

She is also too far removed from any other person who would be "rightful" King to stay on even as a governor-prince. Boranel, Kaius and Aurala have their own, closer relatives and children. She'd just be passing Thrane on to one of her neighbours, and she doesn't want that, either.

If she wishes to hold up her own claim as Queen of Thrane (and possibly Galifar), however ceremonial that title is, she has to hold up the belief that Thalin was King. That means accepting that he did own the land, and had a right to donate it to the Church.

What she could do is find some other legal problems. Thalin was threatened, manipulated, not in full possession of his mental abilities, in contravention of a law or edict that specifically states that the King is forbidden to disinherit his family or that the Church may not hold land, that it was not properly witnessed, and so on and so forth. We don't know the intricacies of Galifar's law and constitution (if any), so it is supefluous to speculate on what she could do in this case.

The other nations will have no problem, since they never accepted Thalin's claim to the crown. As such, they would obviously not accept any grant of territory which he did not own in the first place. But, it goes without saying, they cannot enforce this claim; Flame knows they tried long and hard during the Last War.

This is still all based on the assumption that the King of Galifar does own the land. It is possible that he has alway been considered a steward, rather than an actual owner, even at the time the Five Nations were united: I've given my reasons for believing this above.

Even without actually giving away the land, it might still be possible for such a will to exist: the succession is not clear-cut. That's why there was the Last War: the eldest child is usually, but not automatically the heir. My understanding is that Jarot could have chosen someone else. And thus, Thalin - again, acting as the King he claimed to be - could do so as well.

He only chose outside the family of ir'Wynarn, and passed the crown (not the land) on to the Church, the Keeper, or the Flame (depending on whether the Flame is a legal persona). This would be as if Constantine had declared the Pope (or Christ, chief representative on Earth by the pope - but don't tell the Byzantines!) as his successor. Though never technically legal, emperors did chose their successors: Constantine's own father had risen to the position that way (though such things often ended in Civil War). (Simplifying the Tetrarchy rules a bit here, I admit).
Psionycx
01-20-07, 10:26 PM Well practicalities do come into play. That's why whoever wrote the Donation of Constantine specifically only gave Western Europe to the Church. Putting a claim to the entire Roman Empire on paper and waving it around as legitimate would have provoked immediate war with the Byzantine Empire. As it was, there were skirmishes in eastern Italy after the Donation was used to justify naming Charlemagne Roman Emperor.

The extent of Constantine's actual piety is still open to debate after all this time. Certainly in many ways he acted like a man trying to solidify singular imperial for himself, rather than a religious figure. But the same can be said really for Thalin. In his case it was clearly that he desired to sit on the throne of Galifar. That his religion would have benefitted was an obvious bonus.

Now, since the Galifar succession was broken anyway it is indeed open to debate how legitimate a royal succession would be in any case. While Thalin was alive the monarchy endured, but once he was dead the Church was in a position to take over the government.

The fact that they kept up a royal house in Thrane could have simply been a mere formality. The other four nations were all fighting to place their resident ir' Wynarn royal onto the Galifar throne. Without at least a symbolic ir' Wynarn on hand it would be blatantly obvious that Thrane was fighting to put the Keeper of the Flame on the throne and that would have made too much of an obvious rallying cry the vassals of the Sovereign Host throughout Khorvaire to unite under against Thrane. So for legitimacy's sake the Church kept the royal line crowned and alive, but held that Thalin's authority was now property of the Church.

Again, this is similar to the situation put forward under the Donation of Constantine. There weren't a lot of people, even as pious as they were, that would accept direct rule of Europe by the popes. So instead the Church claimed authority under the Donation and then delegated to monarchs crowned under the Church's auspices. Likewise, Queen Diani still has a crown, but it's put on her head by the hands of the Keeper.

It is probably held that Thalin did what he did for the Church (just like Constantine), but nobody, not even the Keeper, would have dared try to take his power during his lifetime (again like Constantine).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Charles Phipps 01-10-07, 11:17 PM	We're curious over in the "Five Things every Thrane knows" thread. I like the idea that the Flame Church stepped in when the country was on the verge of anarchy and open revolt from attacks from three sides and incompetent management of the war. I liked destroying the usual assumption the Church was power hungry.
Volaran 01-11-07, 03:20 AM	I'm not Keith of course, but my understanding is that the people of Thrane were the deciding factor. The Church had been powerful in Thrane since its inception, and while both the Church and people supported Thalin's claim to the Thone of Galifar, confidence in his heirs was...somewhat less.
Syltorian 01-11-07, 07:06 AM	Wasn't it Thalin himself who made the Church his successors in his will? The last ruling King of Thrane was an ardent believer in the Silver Flame. He helped start the Last War because he believed that the Silver Flame should become the prominent religion throughout Galifar. It would make some sense for him to give the kingdom over to the Church on his death - bequests of lands were not unusual to the medieval Church, either, and the admittedly forged "gift of Constantine" - where the Emperor Constantine was said to have left Rome and Italy to the Pope - could be a reality in Eberron. Of course, if you want more intrigue, maybe Thalin was influenced by his clerical advisors, or the Church forged the documents, or promised he would join with the Flame if he bequested the nation to them - but he might also have had the idea himself. The Church, in a somewhat naive and idealist view of things, might not have had to do anything at all. It is also possible that the Flame (as opposed to its Church) put that idea into Thalin's head (or it might have been the Dark Flame, to tempt and corrupt the Church with temporal and secular power); in this case, its reasons have still to play out. It might have a plan leading to something way down in the future.
Hellcow 01-11-07, 02:21 PM	I'm not Keith of course, but my understanding is that the people of Thrane were the deciding factor. I don't have The Five Nations at hand, and if Thalin gave the nation to the church in his will, that's where I'd expect it to be covered. Certainly Thalin was an ardent supporter of the faith, and one of his primary motivations in seeking the throne of Galifar was to create a united kingdom governed by the just principles of the Flame. Whether or not Thalin stipulated it in his will, it's certainly more the case that the people gave Thrane to the Church as opposed to the Church "seizing" it; it was a popular decision.
Psionycx 01-20-07, 01:14 AM	In the real world one of the most famous (to historians) forged documents in history is The Donation of Constantine. This document, supposedly the will of Constantine, the first Christian Roman Emperor, grants the eastern half of the Roman Empire to the Emperor ruling from Constantinople, and the western half (most of Western Europe) to the Roman Catholic Church. It was based on the supposed authority of this document that they Church claimed the right to crown rulers in Europe, particularly the Holy Roman Emperor, for centuries. Since the Church of the Silver Flame seems analogous, maybe they've got a will (forged or real) of Thalin that grants Thrane (and maybe even the Galifar throne) to the Church?
Syltorian 01-20-07, 07:27 AM	Since the Church of the Silver Flame seems analogous, maybe they've got a will (forged or real) of Thalin that grants Thrane (and maybe even the Galifar throne) to the Church? That's what I was thinking about when I mentioned the "gift" of Constantine above. I couldn't remember the word "donation" for some reason. It's definetly an interesting little forgery. :D I would actually have such a will in my campaign - though Hellcow is right that it is not covered in Five Nations or anywhere else. Personally, I would think the Will - the Donation of Thalin? - is genuine. Thalin believed deeply in the Church and the Silver Flame, enough to break with all other traditions of Galifar (and refusing the succession rights of the Queen of Cyre). There have been other occasions where entire empires or kingdoms were left to somebody else in a will. That's how Rome obtained Pergamon, for example. And many of the nobility left large territories to the Church in their wills to assure themselves a place in heaven (anyone seen the Blackadder episode?) I cannot see the actual Church consenting to forging a will, not with the moderates in power. But it would be interesting to see how Jaela would react if it turned out somebody else forged it. Or, as in Blackadder, they manipulated Thalin into signing by promising him something equivalent to Saint status.
Slayen 01-20-07, 11:01 AM	Well, I just went over every resource I've got about both Thrane and the Silver Flame, and I can't find any thing about Thalin's will. Just that the people decided to reject Daslin's claim and place the Church above the throne. There is a brief mention in Five Nations, that the cardinals convinced the people of to do this but they don't go into any real detail. Perhaps this is something that could be covered in a future Dragonshard? (that is when WotC finally gets back to putting them up again)
Psionycx 01-20-07, 11:12 AM	Well, it's obviously not valid in most people's eyes regardless of whether it was forged or real. In the case of the Donation of Constantine, belief in the document's validity was based on a Medieval misunderstanding of the nature of the Roman Empire. It was not, in fact, a feudal state and not technically Constantine's property, even though he was the emperor, in the way that later Medieval kingdoms (but not the Holy Roman Empire) were property of their kings. Traditionally emperors could name their own successors, but not transfer ownership of the Empire. Likewise, Thalin was really a governor-prince under Galifar not the owner of Thrane. So it wouldn't have been his to grant to anyone. This is one of those cases where the lawfulness of the Church entered questionable territory. Even if Thalin gave them Thrane his right to do so was open to question. The Church stepped outside the law in supporting breaking the Galifar succession in the first place. Nonethless, such issues tend to fade with time, much like the question of whether Constantine could have really given the Empire to the Church. So it's reasonable that the Church of the Silver Flame has a Donation of Thalin that purports to make them owners of Thrane, and they use that authority to rule and crown the figurehead monarch they still have. Few outside Thrane, and probably many within Thrane like Queen Diani, don't buy it.
Syltorian 01-20-07, 12:47 PM	The governor-prince does not own the land. But, in my opinion, the King of Galifar does. Unlike in the Roman Emperor, who directly owned only the Imperial estates. Though these were extremely large, did not include all of the "Donation" by far, and above all, not the City of Rome, safe for some patches. The Dragonmarked Houses pay rent to the crown, after all, for using it. Boranel, I think it was said at some points, hands out dangerous territory near Droaam to adventurers willing to settle it. Constantine could not have done that legally, except, again, with the Imperial Estates or by conjuring up a treason charge against the owner, after which the estates could be confiscated. And Thalin, along with all his siblings and successors, considered himself the rightful King of Galifar. Diani would be faced with a rather awkward choice, if we accept the hypothetical Donation of Thalin, and accept it as genuine. She can challenge it on the grounds that he did not have the right to do this, because he did not own the land. That would be admitting that he was not really King - and hence, that she isn't Queen. She is also too far removed from any other person who would be "rightful" King to stay on even as a governor-prince. Boranel, Kaius and Aurala have their own, closer relatives and children. She'd just be passing Thrane on to one of her neighbours, and she doesn't want that, either. If she wishes to hold up her own claim as Queen of Thrane (and possibly Galifar), however ceremonial that title is, she has to hold up the belief that Thalin was King. That means accepting that he did own the land, and had a right to donate it to the Church. What she could do is find some other legal problems. Thalin was threatened, manipulated, not in full possession of his mental abilities, in contravention of a law or edict that specifically states that the King is forbidden to disinherit his family or that the Church may not hold land, that it was not properly witnessed, and so on and so forth. We don't know the intricacies of Galifar's law and constitution (if any), so it is supefluous to speculate on what she could do in this case. The other nations will have no problem, since they never accepted Thalin's claim to the crown. As such, they would obviously not accept any grant of territory which he did not own in the first place. But, it goes without saying, they cannot enforce this claim; Flame knows they tried long and hard during the Last War. This is still all based on the assumption that the King of Galifar does own the land. It is possible that he has alway been considered a steward, rather than an actual owner, even at the time the Five Nations were united: I've given my reasons for believing this above. Even without actually giving away the land, it might still be possible for such a will to exist: the succession is not clear-cut. That's why there was the Last War: the eldest child is usually, but not automatically the heir. My understanding is that Jarot could have chosen someone else. And thus, Thalin - again, acting as the King he claimed to be - could do so as well. He only chose outside the family of ir'Wynarn, and passed the crown (not the land) on to the Church, the Keeper, or the Flame (depending on whether the Flame is a legal persona). This would be as if Constantine had declared the Pope (or Christ, chief representative on Earth by the pope - but don't tell the Byzantines!) as his successor. Though never technically legal, emperors did chose their successors: Constantine's own father had risen to the position that way (though such things often ended in Civil War). (Simplifying the Tetrarchy rules a bit here, I admit).
Psionycx 01-20-07, 10:26 PM	Well practicalities do come into play. That's why whoever wrote the Donation of Constantine specifically only gave Western Europe to the Church. Putting a claim to the entire Roman Empire on paper and waving it around as legitimate would have provoked immediate war with the Byzantine Empire. As it was, there were skirmishes in eastern Italy after the Donation was used to justify naming Charlemagne Roman Emperor. The extent of Constantine's actual piety is still open to debate after all this time. Certainly in many ways he acted like a man trying to solidify singular imperial for himself, rather than a religious figure. But the same can be said really for Thalin. In his case it was clearly that he desired to sit on the throne of Galifar. That his religion would have benefitted was an obvious bonus. Now, since the Galifar succession was broken anyway it is indeed open to debate how legitimate a royal succession would be in any case. While Thalin was alive the monarchy endured, but once he was dead the Church was in a position to take over the government. The fact that they kept up a royal house in Thrane could have simply been a mere formality. The other four nations were all fighting to place their resident ir' Wynarn royal onto the Galifar throne. Without at least a symbolic ir' Wynarn on hand it would be blatantly obvious that Thrane was fighting to put the Keeper of the Flame on the throne and that would have made too much of an obvious rallying cry the vassals of the Sovereign Host throughout Khorvaire to unite under against Thrane. So for legitimacy's sake the Church kept the royal line crowned and alive, but held that Thalin's authority was now property of the Church. Again, this is similar to the situation put forward under the Donation of Constantine. There weren't a lot of people, even as pious as they were, that would accept direct rule of Europe by the popes. So instead the Church claimed authority under the Donation and then delegated to monarchs crowned under the Church's auspices. Likewise, Queen Diani still has a crown, but it's put on her head by the hands of the Keeper. It is probably held that Thalin did what he did for the Church (just like Constantine), but nobody, not even the Keeper, would have dared try to take his power during his lifetime (again like Constantine).