Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Cloud Divider 02-18-05, 01:48 AM	Out of curiousity, is it just me, or is traveling by Lightning Rail prohibitively expensive? At the going rate of 5sp/mile, just traveling between Sharn and Wroat costs ~250gp (500gp for the round trip); traveling from Sharn to Starilaskur, at the other end of Breland (approx 1500 miles) is 750gp (or 1500gp for the round trip). And that's per person, as far as I can tell. I just happened to be interested in looking it up for a scenario I'm working on, and was rather surprised at the values I punched up. Certainly, I can understand it being expensive enough to keep down the "riff raff." However, at those rates, I honestly can't imagine how the Orien can manage to fill seats (and furthermore, even if bulk cargo rates are a tenth of that of a person, I can't think of much that'd be worth the kind of expense we're talking about here to ship by rail). You'd have to be spectacularly wealthy to afford trips with any regularity. Particularly if you go compare those rates to other published costs of living - a middle class townhouse in Sharn (in a decent neighborhood) will run you, what, 2d4 x 1500 gp - let's call it 7500gp. That's some serious money. For the price of 5 round trip tickets from Sharn to Starilaskur (let alone anywhere more distant), you could buy a house. Or 3 +1 longswords and a few other magical trinkets. I'd previously been working under the impression that the Lightning Rail was at least a little more commonplace (maybe mid/late-19th century America/Europe). As it stands, going by the economic descriptors on p132, the 30% of the population that's "middle class" could afford to take a round trip from Sharn to Wroat ONCE per year (assume that the "few hundred gold pieces or more" is an annual disposable income, after rent, food, and so on have been accounted for). Even if you assume that a big chunk of Lightning Rail travel is subsidized by people other than the passengers (ie "business trips" where whoever you work for foots the bill; political favors, etc) it's still a small fortune to go anywhere... Granted, it's still much cheaper than airship - the Sharn/Wroat flight would cost you 500gp one way. Orien still makes a pretty penny at it - if 20,000 people travel between Wroat and Sharn each year (~7% of the combined population of the two cities, or about 1/4 of the middle- and upper-class population), Orien banks five million gp a year. That's a lot of gold (for one relatively tiny stretch of track). And only about 60 people on the trains each day. That's basically one (maybe two) train cars. And that doesn't even count what they might be making on freight... In any case - I found this out while trying to figure out how expensive it would be to have the group of 4 PC's (2nd level) be given a job to travel from Sharn to Starilaskur or Vathirond. They certainly couldn't afford that themselves - at 60,000gp for the party. And it also put into perspective for me just how important said job was to their employer if he was offering to pay for their transportation via rail, even if the raw financial pay was pitiful by comparison (1000gp total). In any case, I'm thinking that In My Eberron, I'm going to drop the Lightning Rail costs down a bit - maybe 1sp or 5cp/mile instead (so Sharn-Starilaskur would only be 150gp, instead). It's still pretty expensive (still waaaay out of the peasant's price range), but definitely cheap enough to be fairly common among the middle class. Sharn to Flamekeep (~2500 miles) is probably about a 5-day trip (30mph plus stops). Orien'd still make out like a bandit - the Sharn-Wroat leg would still make 1 million gp/year. And likely more, because at a fifth to a tenth of the cost, more people would travel more often (rather than 1 trip/year, it's 2). ...Or is all this concern about these costs just me?
ekomega 02-18-05, 01:58 AM	In the beginning I had rail trips be short, so the PCs could afford it, or so that the sponsor wasn't paying so much. After that, I just dropped the price to 1 or 2 sp a mile and rounded a little bit. I had my PCs travel from Sharn to northern Thrane, and it would've been impossibly expensive with the old pricing system. The costs are very high in the book, and I don't get it. No one could afford it. Maybe cargo is mostly sent by caravan. The rail is only a few years old, as are airships, so that might explain it.
Vharuck 02-18-05, 02:00 AM	I believe this was brought up in the old Ask Keith thread and Keith said that he also noticed the cost problem and would find a way to fix it. In other words, use what seems most logical.
Sarlax 02-18-05, 02:07 AM	Out of curiousity, is it just me, or is traveling by Lightning Rail prohibitively expensive? I'd never noticed this before, but you're right. It's an absurd cost. The ECS says that coaches can tow passengers cars that hold up to 200 passengers each. How the heck is Orien going to find 200 people able to pay for this at a time? I think that this reflects that either: 1) The designers came up with the price intuitively, thinking a 5 SP basis was pretty cheap for PCs, without consideration of how it would fit with the world;or 2) Khorvaire is way too big. With such huge distances between settlements, it's amazing that any kind of government is possible on the scale we see, and probably impossible for government to have existed on the level of Galifar. It makes me note the difference between Sharn and First Tower: 56 miles according to the official map. Jeeze.
nick012000 02-18-05, 02:27 AM	This is why you get your patrons to pay your travel bills.
UliahHafengrim 02-18-05, 02:49 AM	I'd imagine it would be expensive in general, since it is a monopoly. But just like Orien, Sivis, and Kundarak have agreements worked out with one another about cross-servicing, I'm sure that Orien does similar things with other organizations, etc. Freight rates and what-not would be lower. IIRC, there was mention that certain organizations (Korranberg Chronicle, for one) get special deals and considerations. One thing I like about most everything in Eberron is that everything isn't set in stone. A lot of material is intentionally left vague to allow the DM to tweak it as he sees fit. If it's expensive, cut it down and see what it's like... You can always come up with an in-game reason why prices fluctuate: supply/demand, dangerous routes for the coaches to pass through, taxes & surcharges may apply, Federal 9/11 taxes--oh wait, no... that's real life airlines--my bad. Fudging is the DM's best tool.
Blizzard_Bobsan 02-18-05, 03:13 AM	I believe Keith mentioned that it is unusual for a common person to travel via the Rail. Most passengers are sponsored by the Dragonmarked Houses or other influential groups which have their own agreements with house Orien (usually exchanging services for services). In my campaign paying the 5sp/mile fee is something extremely uncommon and even in this case there are significant discounts for longer trips. However, I agree that the ECS did a poor job explaining believably the situation with the Lightning Rail. There are some other such shortcomings in the book (the maps and the optional spell components for example), but overall Eberron is great and I don't think that such minor "bugs" can spoil it.
Graywolf 02-18-05, 04:24 AM	It seems like a simple enough fix. Just use the listed price for first class where the passengers get their own private cabins or something similiar, while lower class cars cost less but you have to sit up through the entire trip, but at a lesser cost, maybe even as low as 5 cp a mile, depending on conditions. Or something like that anyway.
Bluebrush 02-18-05, 06:54 AM	Another possibility is to say that the listed cost is the short term notice price. Like for when you urgently need to get to flamekeep to capture the man who'll start the next war or when a dragonmarked heir discovers you've been having an affair with her husband and you need to be several hundred miles away as soon as possible. I can't imagine it being too unbalancing to lower the price of a trip. The only real nescessity is to keep it high enough that commoners can't afford to do it more than once in a lifetime.
sh0 02-18-05, 10:05 AM	I believe Keith mentioned that it is unusual for a common person to travel via the Rail. Most passengers are sponsored by the Dragonmarked Houses or other influential groups which have their own agreements with house Orien (usually exchanging services for services). In my campaign paying the 5sp/mile fee is something extremely uncommon and even in this case there are significant discounts for longer trips. However, I agree that the ECS did a poor job explaining believably the situation with the Lightning Rail. There are some other such shortcomings in the book (the maps and the optional spell components for example), but overall Eberron is great and I don't think that such minor "bugs" can spoil it. I guess this begs the question of how do the commoners travel? If they can't afford the rail, would they be forced to use the more traditinal horse and wagon?
Euangelion 02-18-05, 10:13 AM	I guess this begs the question of how do the commoners travel? If they can't afford the rail, would they be forced to use the more traditinal horse and wagon? If the commoners are like real life peasants, then they probably never travel more than 10 miles or so from their home in their lifetime anyway, so horse and wagon it is if they need to do more than walking.
Gurv 02-18-05, 10:46 AM	No, no, no.... I explained this to a player just the other day. First of all, your typical peasant doesn't travel. He stays at home and does his single simple task for most of his life; thats what makes him a peasant. Six out of ten people in Khorvaire are common peasants. The people who are riding the lightning rail are the other 40%. Three out of every ten people are middle class. They either have the money required to take the occassional trip on the rail, or have wealthy patrons who do. Those patrons might be one of the dragonmarked Houses, or a more mundane buisiness guild. Such large organizations not only have large accounts with Orien, but they likely get discounts based their relationship with them. The listed cost for riding the lightning rail is what it costs when a random nobody walks up to the station and buys a ticket. Bored nobles with dash-the-cost attitudes, and adventurers who are too lazy to walk somewhere. Remember that the difference between lower/middle/upper class is huge in a midieval society, even one as enlightened as Eberron's. Most people never set foot on one, while others use it all the time. The rail makes enough money on transporting cargo to stay running, and there aren't enough coaches to lower the prices and bring everyone for a ride. Most importantly, remember that the lightning rail has a metagame purpose. It is there so that the players can gloss some travel time. Khorvaire is purposely massive; the distance between places designed to allow for varying enviornments, while the rail is there to get (plot-)important people where they need to be. If the plot requires the PCs to get somewhere, paying for it can be glossed along with the travel time; patrons, luck, mysterious strangers, and guard duty can explain free trips. If the PCs are using the lightning rail in a manner that doesn't support the plot, then its 5sp/mile.
Euangelion 02-18-05, 01:04 PM	No, no, no.... Is that directed at me or the previous poster? If at me, I think we made the same point, but perhaps my syntax was confusing. If at the previous poster, I suggest using quotes so others know to whom you are directing your comments.
Cloud Divider 02-20-05, 11:19 AM	I just wanted to start out and thank everyone so for on their comments... This is why you get your patrons to pay your travel bills. That much is true. But that said, the money has to come from somewhere. If you've got a Cannith patron that's acting on his own in funding the party of four's excursion from Sharn to Vathirond (and subsequently the Mournland), that means he's either Bill Gates wealthy ("$100,000? No problem. I waste that kind of money when I bend over to tie my shoe..."), or he's embezzl..er.."diverting" fairly sizable funds from somewhere (and that could make for an interesting sideplot as well, as his superiors notice his actions). So let's see 4 PCs x 1643 mi x 2 ways x 5sp/mi = 6572gp (and if 1gp ~ $20 the Bill Gates analogy is close). Throw in any kind of reward (1000gp/PC, for another 4000gp), and we break the 10k mark. In the particular case of the adventure I was working on, the patron, while wealthy, wasn't billionaire-wealthy in my first mental image. Working out the costs put things into a slightly different perspective. So he either became MUCH more wealthy, or had MUCH more influence... As another aside, by the default costs, it's cheaper to buy passage to Xen'drik on a Lyrandar galleon than it is to travel from Sharn to say, Korth (though you'd have to take the last stretch from Thaliost to Rekkenmark by ferry, and then Rekkenmark to Korth by rail - call it 1500gp/person each way). A rough estimate from the end plate maps, it's about 1500mi from Sharn to the northern coast of Xen'drik, so about 750gp each way (not counting hazard surcharges and the like). Maybe cheaper for a non-elemental galleon (as an aside, the costs of nonmagical ship travel would have been nice, too). Which is a useful figure for me too - another adventure I'd been working on involved needing a rough cost for an expedition to Xen'drik. Between booking passage (10-man team, so 15000), supplies (another 500gp), the Letter of Marque (500gp)...Even for a wealthy dilettante son of a noble that's some pretty serious cash.
ekomega 02-20-05, 03:43 PM	I don't think you can travel to Rekkenmark from Thaliost, for a few reasons. 1) The bridge is out. 2) The river between the two towns is surrounded by high cliffs (it says in the description of Rekkenmark, Karrnath). And, the remnants of the old bridge (conductor stones, huge slabs of stone, etc.) are in the water there. So you can't take a boat. 3) Karrnath destroyed the bridge during the Last War for a reason. They likely still fear Thrane since the war just ended. So they probably wouldn't let you travel from Thaliost to Rekkenmark, even if you could. I had my PCs travel to Rekkenmark from Sharn for a mission, but they had to pull an exceptional favor from House Lyrandar and get dropped off on an airship that was headed to Stormhome. Otherwise, it didn't make sense. I could've picked another town, but Rekkenmark has a certain quality to it.
Cloud Divider 02-20-05, 11:01 PM	I don't think you can travel to Rekkenmark from Thaliost, for a few reasons. 1) The bridge is out. Incidentally, I did specifically mention "Take a ferry between Thaliost and Rekkenmark" before re-boarding the Rail to go from Rekkenmark to Korth. 2) The river between the two towns is surrounded by high cliffs (it says in the description of Rekkenmark, Karrnath). And, the remnants of the old bridge (conductor stones, huge slabs of stone, etc.) are in the water there. So you can't take a boat. I don't see why you couldn't. Sharn's essentially built on a cliff, but has a thriving port, thanks to their magical lifts. Given the width of the river at the bridge, it'd probably be quite deep, so I really don't think the bridge rubble is going to provide any significant obstacles. And even if you can't cross DIRECTLY at the bridge, you could just move 100 yards up or downstream. Even a quarter-mile, if you really must. I can certainly imagine some kind of transportation hub on either side of the river. The Lightning Rail is basically the only "fast" transportation for bulk goods and people to go from eastern to western Khorvaire. The Thaliost/Rekkenmark crossing is basically the ONLY viable connection point between the western and eastern Lightning Rail network, as the rest run through the Mournlands. 3) Karrnath destroyed the bridge during the Last War for a reason. They likely still fear Thrane since the war just ended. So they probably wouldn't let you travel from Thaliost to Rekkenmark, even if you could. If that were the case, how come Breland and Thrane (and Aundair) still allow the lightning rail between their countries? It doesn't appear that any of the other nations have done much to try and seal their borders since the end of the war - but maybe that's just because they don't have the same opportunity that the Karrns (and Thranes) have. However, just look what Karrnath stands to GAIN by allowing/building a ferry! They are now LITERALLY the only gateway for land travel to Eastern Khorvaire (...including the Talenta Plains, the Mror Holds, and the Valenar; the Lhazaar Principalities and Q'barra probably rely mostly on water travel)! That's some SERIOUS economic power! While Orien may not let them tax goods on the Lightning Rail (that'd be the Orien's job), the Karrns could definitely monopolize their Rekkenmark "Port of Entry." There's the potential for quite a few megabucks of imposed taxes...One that the Karrns could actually lay a fairly credible claim to, if they were to build the ferry/elevator system themselves. (The Thranes could do the same on their side, too) Furthermore, you could certainly imagine some fair political (AND economic!) leverage being put on Kaius III by the Mror Holds (and most importantly, the Kundarak bankers!). So there'd be many reasons for the Karrns to consider reopening a trade route. Plus, even if the Karrnathi side didn't use magical lifts like Sharn (I don't recall at the moment if Sharn's magical lifts only work because of the manifest zone), they could always go the brute force method - their elevators are powered by legions of zombies that push geared wheels (like the "Wheel of Pain" in Conan - I don't know what the proper term is) that raise and lower the cars. Tell me that image isn't a perfect fit for Eberron. I had my PCs travel to Rekkenmark from Sharn for a mission, but they had to pull an exceptional favor from House Lyrandar and get dropped off on an airship that was headed to Stormhome. Otherwise, it didn't make sense. I could've picked another town, but Rekkenmark has a certain quality to it. True. The Rekkenmark is a neat place. In any case, I think I know what I plan on doing, should it ever come up in my campaign...
ekomega 02-21-05, 04:39 AM	Sharn does have lifts and other nice things about it, but it also has the Manifest Zone to Syrania that may or may not make those things possible. Also, in the Rekkenmark description, it says "high cliffs" around Scion's Sound. I don't know how high, but it might be too high. And as for the size of the chunks, the entry also says "huge". Plus, the bridge was really big. So I stand by not possible, from a review of the evidence. A legion of zombies to operate the elevators is nice, but I think they have other uses for the plethora of zombie that abound in Karrnath. As for the reasons why Karrnath would allow it, I don't agree. Rekkenmark is a military town, with a military academy. This means it would probably be protected by Karrnath for national security. Also, a percentage of the town was ravaged and destroyed during the Last War. Even if the government was pressured to make lots of money by opening up the waterway, Rekkenmark has military secrets to protect, and a lot of bitter people. Blowing up the bridge and seeing the still devastated town years later seems like the constant reminder of why Karrnath needs to take over the Five Nations and reunite Galifar, rather than an economic opportunity. Of course, this is all interpretation of flavor text. Back on topic, how does everyone run airship travel? What towns are accessible, do the airships require a special dock, etc.? And do you keep the costs for that the same?
Cloud Divider 02-21-05, 10:57 PM	Sharn does have lifts and other nice things about it, but it also has the Manifest Zone to Syrania that may or may not make those things possible. Also, in the Rekkenmark description, it says "high cliffs" around Scion's Sound. I don't know how high, but it might be too high. And as for the size of the chunks, the entry also says "huge". Plus, the bridge was really big. So I stand by not possible, from a review of the evidence. A legion of zombies to operate the elevators is nice, but I think they have other uses for the plethora of zombie that abound in Karrnath. True. But sounds are also quite deep by definition. I forget what the depth of Puget Sound is; but my mental image was for something maybe a bit closer to say, the Columbia River in the Portland area (the Columbia's about a mile wide there), but with the shores converted into "high" cliffs (maybe a couple hundred feet?). Even if the blocks were 100 feet in diameter (call it an average), it'd make an area roughly two or four times the width of the bridge into "rough waters". Thrane may have some interest in keeping Scion's Sound passable, as they have several cities on the coast of that inland bay/sea/whatever. However, that area must still be passable - ships are still able to approach Thronehold from Karrn Bay, are they not? I'd generally assume they are... Regarding the manpower issue... I will reference the Warforged now. How many Warforged are in existence currently (ie "survived the war")? Call it 10,000 maybe? Mostly split between Breland and (ex-)Cyre (say 40%/40%), with the rest sprinkled in among the other Nations (the remaining 20%)? Sharn on it's own has 1500 "known" Warforged residents. It's probably a safe assumption that there were at least as many Karrnathi undead that survived the war (including the proper Karrnathi Undead and lesser "mundane" undead). And the Karrnathi don't have to worry about their manufactured soldiers suddenly being declared "sentient beings". All it'd take to run these elevators are maybe...200 zombies on the top end? That wouldn't be too hard to scrounge up. They don't even need all of their appendages (well, they'd ideally need both legs - you could just harness an armless torso to the wheel). So Karrn's got legions upon legions of undead, with nothing better to do with them, really. I mean, Breland's still got a standing army, and there's still hundreds of warforged slaving away in Sharn's cogs doing menial labor. So if Sharn/Breland can afford it, I don't see why Karrnath can't. As for the reasons why Karrnath would allow it, I don't agree. Rekkenmark is a military town, with a military academy. This means it would probably be protected by Karrnath for national security. Sure. Unlike the bridge, however, a ferry port would be ENTIRELY under Karrnathi control. If they want to seal the borders, all they have to do is to tell the zombies to stop working. Problem solved. If anyone else wanted to take over, they'd still need the manpower to do it, and they'd not only have to GET that manpower on-site, they'd have to protect them to continue landing additional forces. Plus, if someone did try an attack, they've already got 200 stormtroopers on-site that only need to be issued weapons to be useful combatants. Rekkenmark is also the site of extranational military academies as well (those of the Deneith). I just don't buy that it's a completely sealed military town. Mostly because that's incredibly impractical on the long-term on a large scale. Rekkenmark has how many people? 15,000-ish? How many of those are directly tied to military operations? How many are support/families/etc? There's already a security risk being that large... Certainly, the military academies are probably VERY secure. But would they shut down a potential MAJOR trade artery for it? Rekkenmark essentially became what it became because of it's location (right on the front-line against Thrane), and yet they STILL built a rail line there. Clearly, they must have had some means by which they dealt with the potential security risk then (not sure of dates for the entire rail network - the first stretch was laid in YK 811). It was destroyed in 899. So Rekkenmark survived just fine with a rail line for perhaps as many as 88 years (most likely less, call it 50). Also, a percentage of the town was ravaged and destroyed during the Last War. Meh. Name a city that wasn't ravaged by the War in some way. Sharn got away fairly unscathed, I guess, but that may be more because it acted rather like a Casablanca - blasting Sharn would've taken out important people from all sides. Even if the government was pressured to make lots of money by opening up the waterway, Rekkenmark has military secrets to protect, and a lot of bitter people. Maybe so. But when I say "lots" of money, I mean lots. Potentially millions of gp/year. Let's say 1% of the Khorvairan population makes a trip from West to East once a year. Call it 100,000 people (note, I was estimating "only" 20,000 people make a Sharn-Wroat trip a year, so this could be MUCH bigger). Tax each passenger 10gp at the port of entry ("You're paying to support the construction and upkeep of this facility - those zombies do wear out eventually, and they're not cheap..."). Given that someone making a trip is likely paying 500+ gp (assuming the listed costs), a 10gp "tax" is trivial. That's 1 million gp right there. And that's not even counting any taxes on goods crossing the border. There's tons of ores, refined metals, and finished products being exported from the mines and craftsmen of the Mror Holds to the wealthy West. Stuff like Mithral, Adamantine, precious metals and minerals - all pretty heavy stuff. Food and other goods go East to the Holds. Stuff that while valuable, is still not worth shipping by air (too heavy/bulky/whatever). What's the going rate for raw adamantium? 200gp/lb? Ship a single ton in a year (2000 lb x 200 gp/lb = 400,000gp). A ton isn't even all that much, really - enough to make 500 longswords. Tax that at 10% at your border, and that's 40,000gp. For a single product. Without fiddling with trade surpluses and deficits, every gold piece that comes in is met with another gold piece going out. Is 10 million gp in trade a year unreasonable? Not really, in fact, I'd probably even call that pretty low (for amusement, I should go look up a figure for how many billions of dollars of shipped goods go through the Port of Singapore per year - it's a roughly similar situation; Singapore's a transportation chokepoint for sea transportation in Asia, just like Rekkenmark/Thaliost is a land transportation chokepoint in Khorvaire). Even Karrnath has stuff to export (that yummy bitter cheese is apparently a favorite in the West). Tax that at 10%, and that's another 1 million gp/year. So let's call it two million gp a year in taxes. That's "only" twenty tons of gold a year. TWENTY TONS! And "realistic" figures could be an order of magnitude (or maybe even two!) larger. So while Karrnath may keep military secrets in Rekkenmark, do they buy me TWENTY TONS of gold a year? 2 million gold pieces buys a metric butt-ton of zombie troops and two metric butt-tons of magical widgetry. Heck, spend half of the first year's earnings in beefing up the security systems at the Rekkenmark academies. Count that as part of the development costs of your new ferry system. Then, let it operate for ten years. Skim 200,000gp a year for further security investments at the academies. I think the economics will make a VERY strong argument... You could even try and make a comparison between Eastern and Western Europe post-WWII and pre-1990. Closing the borders led to economic stagnation. Sure, you could try and blame it all on the form of government, but I think trade plays a pretty major role. Blowing up the bridge and seeing the still devastated town years later seems like the constant reminder of why Karrnath needs to take over the Five Nations and reunite Galifar, rather than an economic opportunity. Time for some Aurum-associated politicos to start whispering in Kaius' ear (or other government officials, who knows if they've got the equivalent of congressmen, cabinet advisors or other folks with political clout). They could make a pretty strong argument that economics can be a weapon stronger than a legion of super-powered zombie shocktroopers. Back on topic, how does everyone run airship travel? What towns are accessible, do the airships require a special dock, etc.? And do you keep the costs for that the same? I'd figure most locations can be accessed by an airship, with the caveat that "primitive" landing sites are generally VERY inconvenient. I'd figure that landing at an unimproved site would generally entail the crew dropping mooring lines to personnel on the ground which would then be tied to anchors of some kind. Crew (and cargo) would then be lowered via crane, rope, or ladders to the ground. Repairs would pretty much be limited to the kind you could perform while in transit (so you'd need a proper dock for anything serious). I'd figure that the typical "commercial" airship route probably doesn't follow a direct route between major cities. An airship going from Sharn to Korranberg probably makes stops at Zilspar, Trolanport, turning up the coast to Tranthus, Oskilor, that stretch of small towns along the Orien road to Zolanberg, and then down to Korranberg. Total length of this route is roughly 1500mi (roughly 48 hours of base travel, plus maybe a 1-2hr layover at each stop to resupply/disembark passengers and cargo (10-20hrs), so a total of 58-60 hours, possibly as high as 70-80 hours). An "Express" ship may go Sharn>Trolanport>Korranberg (roughly 900mi, and only 30 hrs base + 2hrs for the Trolanport stop). So roughly a third of the time spent in transit. A "Direct" flight from Sharn>Korranberg doesn't save all that much time...so any that make that route are likely to be private craft. So depending if you wanted "cheap" or "expensive" travel: Cheap: you could have the "Express" be the 1gp/mi method, and the "Stops-a-Lot" is 5sp or less/mi (end cost is 750gp or less vs 900 for the Express) Expensive: The Stops-a-Lot goes for 1gp/mile (=1500gp); the Express is 2 or even 5gp/mi (1800-4500gp). As far as the standard routes go, I'd figure that they'd connect most everything of "Large Town" or larger at the minimum, while smaller settlements would pretty much be SOL unless they were on the route (the ship might even come to a stop long enough for the guy to slide all the way down the rope, assuming he's in a good mood). Though, I suppose for the prices involved, a full stop is probably possible (and maybe even slight course diversions), assuming the schedules are designed to be somewhat loose...
zambuka 02-22-05, 12:20 AM	Thrane may have some interest in keeping Scion's Sound passable, as they have several cities on the coast of that inland bay/sea/whatever. Not really. Most of the trade Thrane is doing would be in that inland sea. Think the Mediterranean sea for a comparison. For the most part there is no reason to travel outside, everything you need is right there. The rest of the trade would be by lightning rail north and south to Breland and Aundair. Rekkenmark is not the gateway to the west you are making it out to be. Rekkenmark essentially became what it became because of it's location (right on the front-line against Thrane), and yet they STILL built a rail line there. Clearly, they must have had some means by which they dealt with the potential security risk then (not sure of dates for the entire rail network - the first stretch was laid in YK 811). It was destroyed in 899. So Rekkenmark survived just fine with a rail line for perhaps as many as 88 years (most likely less, call it 50). Rekkenmark became what it is well before the lightning rail, according to its entry in the ESB its military tradition goes way back to the second Galifar King. The bridge was probably only built there because it was a conveniently located town with all the resources and infrastructure needed to support the work crews. The bridge would also have been in operation for a few years before the Last war started and may have been a hotly contested construction even as it was being built. Maybe so. But when I say "lots" of money, I mean lots. Potentially millions of gp/year. ...snip... So while Karrnath may keep military secrets in Rekkenmark, do they buy me TWENTY TONS of gold a year? 2 million gold pieces buys a metric butt-ton of zombie troops and two metric butt-tons of magical widgetry. Sure all this money may not be going through Rekkenmark now but look at where it is going. Much of the cargo shipped between Karrnath and the other nations would go across that great big inland sea where Thronehold lives. Cargo would come from Aundair down through the Aundair river from Fairhaven, across from Thrane from Flamekeep. All this cargo and trade would travel directly up to Korth. Breland good would travel up the Brey river, it does appear to be a slight oversight that there is no major Brelish town near that waterway. This is a much better trade route as it brings important goods directly into the Capital. It is all about control. You could even try and make a comparison between Eastern and Western Europe post-WWII and pre-1990. Closing the borders led to economic stagnation. Sure, you could try and blame it all on the form of government, but I think trade plays a pretty major role. Karrnathi borders aren't closed, it is just that the entry points have been moved to more convenient locations for the Karrnathi nobility and Government. Basically there is no real economical reason to rebuild the bridge. All the trade routes they need are still open, they even pretty much have a monopoly on what comes out of the Mror holds and almost all goods travelling from east to west and back again. The only alternative is by a long and dangerous sea voyage or a trip through the mournlands. Leaving the bridge in ruins makes much more sense economically than going through all the trouble of rebuilding something that probably wasn't really needed anyway. That bridge was more likely an exercise in politics and power more than a necessity for trade.
castlemike 02-22-05, 04:31 AM	I agree since lightning rail costs were so high I reduced it to 5 - 10 CP a mile which is still pricey 1 CP could work and still be out of the means of most of the populace other than a short trip to the next stop 10 - 20 miles for a special outing. Calling in a Favor can still be pretty valuable under the Sharn guidelines. Since most Dragon Mark Abilities have a market cost of 80% of an equivalent level spell or less in most cases. With House Orien Astral Beacons and Level 8 NPCs only needing 4 levels of DMH to teleport as a CL14 times two with a range of 2,800 miles between astral beacons versus that mile rate. I just use the Wayfarer costs guidelines from the splat book at the 10+ teleport contract discount rate (25%) of 675 GP for a group of 4 travellers (450 GP each way for a total of 900 GP as Two FIfth level spells (for his return) between large cities or better with a range of 1,400 miles elsewhere (other locales without an astral beacon). Figure the wayfarer/teleporter should have no problem picking up some return fares on the cheap at 100 - 200 GP a head.