Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Revan_Revanthas 06-29-06, 05:22 AM	Is there any "official" material for high level adventuring in Khorvaire? Has anyone run a campaign for higher (12+ Level) characters who would be willing to share some notes? I am impressed by the setting but I doubt my players would be overly impressed by the Lord of Blades combat statistics...and the idea of sending them repeatedly to Xendrick "on safari" for higher CR threats doesn't sit well with me when the mainland has so much going for it...
DragonWatcher 06-29-06, 08:07 AM	Some ideas for high-level Eberron opponents/challenges: - The Daughters of Sora Kell - Moradain the Fleshweaver - The Demon Wastes - The Mournlands - Darguun - Lord of Blades (Make up a new one if you don't like the stats) - Vol - The Lords of Dust - Greater Undead in Karrnath - Khyber - The Daelkyr - High Level Druids in the Eldeen Reaches (Children of Winter/(I can't remember the other questionable sect)). Basically, although there aren't a whole lot of high-level opponents statted out in Eberron sourcebooks, that doesn't mean that they're lacking. The point of Eberron isn't that EVERYONE is low level... it's that there aren't a ton of high-level heroes... which is why the PCs are so important. As has been stated in the past, certain villians should always keep pace with the PCs (Vol, the Lord of Blades, or any other significant figure in your game). All of the challenges I've listed above are on Khorvaire, so you don't even have to worry about going to Xen'drick. All you need is a little imagination. Sure at high levels the PCs will cut through waves of 3rd level lackeys without a scratch... but the Vampire Lord that sent those lackeys will be using that time to buff himself, or otherwise make the battle tougher for the PCs. :)
Dragonmann 06-29-06, 08:19 AM	My party just reached 12, so I can share my notes on what is going to happen in their near future. Currently, they will be reemployed by the Dark Lanterns after a small Brelish city near the Mournland Border has apparently suffered a small version of the mourning. It turns out to be a carefully planned raid on a hidden Brelish base, and the mists are the work of a respectably leveled illusionist. After finding out what is stolen, they will be charging off into the Mournland to recover it from the warforged raiders, and will be confronted with a warforged invasion force. Some light raiding, before the warforged army starts marching. A large battle ensues when the warforged exit the mist and find Argonth. (Yay heroes of battle) Next, when the party returns home to Sharn, the Emerald claw will make one final grab for the golden amulet the party picked up from "The queen with the Burning Eyes" Some other personal encounters around Sharn, before the party gets shuffled off to Xen'drik to finally explore the ruin associated with the amulet. Inside the calderra of a volcano, they find an acient giant ruin, and manage to get inside through a slave entrance using the amulet as a key. Inside they will find (among other things) an ancient fire giant lich, and his minions. They will be followed EC as well, who are looking for a map that leads to the access point for the Ring of Storms. Again returning home to Sharn, the party will encounter some more challenges when the party's warforged paladin comes into conflict with the local leader of the Silver Flame... and their Rakshasa allies... The party will be approached by a man wearing 8 platinum rings, and be hired at an exhorbinate rate to recover some weapons that were stolen by the EC/BoV. These are some epic weapons, that the Aurum agreed to sell at a profit, and they are being used by the EC to have a fighting chance against the residents of the Ring of Storms. Before the party leaves to once again visit Xen'drik, they receive an involuntary summons to the court of Kaius III. He hires them to bring back a particular stone tablet from The ring of storms, which describes the technique for regaining the humanity of a vampire. (Although he will have the relic, it will require a planar conjuction that is many many many years away. So the party wanders down to the ring of storms, faces some uber-undead, and some of the best the EC/BoV has to offer, and they escape with their lives. By some means, the EC manages to recover what they were looking for, and the party manages to collect some of the epic weapons. So it feels like victory. The party also learns what the EC is up to. Vol needs the blood of the Tarrasque for a dark ritual to raise her to a new tier of undeadiness, and has been looking for the secrets of waking the beast. If she succeeds she regains the us of her dragonmark, as well as the several other abilities, including the ability to successfully clone herself and restart the line of Vol. So at this point, I expect the party to be pushing 20, and be ready to face the tarrasque. In the mean time, and probably woven in with the above, two members of the party (the warforged paladin, and the rakshasa trained warmage) have been having visions drawing them northwest. The warmage has a real need to free his soul and destroy the fiend who kidnapped him and trained him as a tool, and well the paladin just wants to thump fiends. That is what I have to look forward to, assuming the party doesn't all decide to roll simultaneous 1s for saves and end the campaign suddenly... Of course if that happens I get to swap spots with one of my players, and experience age of worms
nemovadit 06-29-06, 08:58 AM	I am impressed by the setting but I doubt my players would be overly impressed by the Lord of Blades combat statistics...and the idea of sending them repeatedly to Xendrick "on safari" for higher CR threats doesn't sit well with me when the mainland has so much going for it...Depending on your DMing style, you might also begin to dip them into the Great Game, as the British used to play this in India: spying, politicking, assassination plots etc. The Lords of Blades and his councilors can always be scaled up a little, but I've always seen high level play as something where you get more and more involved with the world rulers, first on a regional, then on a wold (or even planes) scale. What if the Dreaming Dark suddently took interest in an alliance with the Lords of Blades, and your characters are asked by some power in Khorvaire to help it stop this unholy alliance? What if the Blood of Vol successfuly launches an agitation campaign in Thrane and Karrnath, reigniting the fires of the Last War? You might also find some ideas in the old D&D expert and master modules if you have access to them, many of them involve such political situations. People from the Mystara forums might have ideas.
DarkWarriorKarg 06-29-06, 09:00 AM	Dude, the major NPCs get advanced too. the LoBster is 12th at campaign START.
(Psi)SeveredHead 06-29-06, 12:49 PM	Is there any "official" material for high level adventuring in Khorvaire? Has anyone run a campaign for higher (12+ Level) characters who would be willing to share some notes? I am impressed by the setting but I doubt my players would be overly impressed by the Lord of Blades combat statistics...and the idea of sending them repeatedly to Xendrick "on safari" for higher CR threats doesn't sit well with me when the mainland has so much going for it... It isn't true that there are no high level NPCs in Eberron. There are few high-level good-aligned NPCs in Eberron. Unlike in FR, where highly mobile and extremely powerful Chosen with extremely perceptive information networks exist, Eberron NPCs like Oalian and Jaela don't move. Don't bother putting a high level adventure in Oalian's grove, but pretty much anywhere else works. There's a number of high level NPCs that exist on their own. Mordain the Fleshweaver is an 18th-level NPC, but he might have allies (other evil and/or insane wizards), apprentices, and of course his horrible creations. Some can be bodyguards, others can lead "missions of evil" that the PCs need to oppose. As long as none of his individual minions exceed CR 18, he can cause problems for a 12th-level party. NPCs gain levels, too, especially BBEGs and their cabinets (basically their higher level operatives and bobodyguards). The LoB's stats are impressive (over 50 point buy) but there's at least two deliberately conflicting set of stats for him - it's up to the DM to stat him up however they want. It's not like some other settings, where NPC stats are officially sanctioned and widely available, even to players. The LoB can gain levels. He starts with eleven levels over the PCs. While he may not gain levels at their rate, he's certainly gaining levels. His lieutenants, by this point, might be over 12th-level too. Furthermore, the LoB has bodyguards. He's never encountered by himself. He's got warforged titans (CR 9+) and fighters and artificers and any concept you like to think about following him around. For all we know, he might ride on a warforged charger, if that's really possible. An encounter with the LoB will heavily exceed EL 12 - it's probably TPK territory for 12th-level PCs. The leaders of "House Tarkanan" in Sharn are at least 12th-level (that might be stated in the Sharn: City of Towers supplement). By the time the heroes have reached 12th-level, again they will have gained levels. They're not just sitting on their behinds, they're actually doing things in the background. Their lieutenants might each be surrounded by a group that can pose a reasonable challenge to the PCs. The two leaders, with their own bodyguards, are going to exceed EL 14 (even if none of them gained levels and they're both actually 12th level). Every group in Eberron is bound to have a few high level NPCs. Just because the queen of Aundair (as an example) is 8th-level doesn't mean her master of spies has be lower level. Aurala of Aundair was born into her position, and the most she's had to do was maintain it. The master of spies (who might be evil, and therefore an opponent of the PCs) had to earn his position, whether through competence, winning missions, or just killing his relatively high level predecessor.
DMDaddy 06-29-06, 01:56 PM	I've always seen high level play as something where you get more and more involved with the world rulers, first on a regional, then on a wold (or even planes) scale. This is the direction my Eberron campaign is starting to go in. They are 8th level. They are just now meeting some of the Sharn city council members and the Lord Mayor. These meetings will lead them to Droaam as a diplomatic party. They must meet with the 3 hags as a jesture of peace and do whatever is necessary to help them out. It may be that a powerful Troll Lord and his group of Troll Hunters is stirring up trouble on the borders. Ultimately they will have to kill 2 of the hags. I agree with the original poster, high level NPCs are rare (if you're going by the books). That is why I create my own NPCs. -A lone wizard (high level) is being paid by Sharn to experiment on the Goblinoid in Durgaar. -Many mid level NPCs are only the front men for more powerful NPCs. -The LoBs is working for a warforged Dragon who has a faint memory of the past concerning the dragon below.
aelryinth 06-29-06, 03:09 PM	Just a thought here... Good NPC's have a tendency to establish or to succeed to a position of authority, and then hold onto it and protect those around them. People then flock to them, and their holdings grow in classic sort. Evil NPC's tend to be more ambitious. They want to take, and are willing to do so despite costs to those below them. they will go anywhere and do anything to fuel their ambitions, which is at odds with how Good characters act. Thus, Good characters at high levels tend to become targets. Evil characters become roving agents of ambition, willing to do what it takes to get what they want. It's those very differences in behavior which delineate the two alignments. Now, enter in adventurers. Adventurers essentially act a lot like Evil people. they don't have roots. They go out and kill stuff in pursuit of their goals...aggressively! They tend to ignore established authority and be more concerned with direct personal power instead of more intangible forms of the same...also like Evil people. Good people without ties and limitations on them are very rare and very dangerous. Hence why high level Good people are not common...it's very hard to avoid those ties and limitations of behavior, you start falling further and further into personal goals. Once you have those ties, you tend to stagnate..your obligations are now about influence, authority, protection, not go Smite the Bad Guy. The Evil person, he is going to keep right on growing in might...if he doesn't get killed. ===Aelryinth
shironiku 06-29-06, 05:02 PM	I'm currently running a high-level Eberron campaign. Three of the PCs are 16th level, one is 17th and two are 19th. Once my characters got into their teens, I found it harder and harder to challenge them in combat. In threads like this about high-level play in Eberron, I always see people rattle off the names of the world's big-bads like the LoB, the Daughters of Sora Kell, etc. as challenges to throw against the PCs. But these should be "boss encounters," not everyday fights. I've done my best to keep the world realistic, and found that the PCs can mow through pretty much any problem I present them with. The last couple of sessions have been half-roleplay and half-combat against some high-CR critter or character. It's beginning to feel like a comic book or a cartoon at this point. The party is currently in the middle of combat against Rhashaak, the half-field black dragon guardian of Haka'torvak, and three rounds into it he is down to less than 50% HP. This encounter was meant to show them that not all problems can be solved with violence (if they kill the dragon, will the demons be freed?), and to be fair, the dragon attacked them (one of the PCs just had to mouth off to him), but they can and probably will beat him. He'll just surrender before they can kill him and give the PCs the spell they came looking for. I also see a lot of people suggesting that the PCs get involved with politics and big organizations at higher level, but what if they're not interested in things like that? Up until 13th level, almost all of my party's adventures happened in Xen'drik. Their only political connection was Baron Merrix d'Cannith, and then only because one of the PCs is a Dragonmarked Heir from that House (one who shows absolutely no ambition, but that's another story). It is only now, at the end of the campaign, that the PCs are dealing with kings and other big shots. They have an airship, and that and their own bootstraps are the only things they are in charge of.
Revan_Revanthas 06-29-06, 07:11 PM	Let me begin by thanking everyone for their ideas. I wasn't very specific when I orginally posted this thread and the majority of your responses have been extremely helpful in spite of my lack of direction. I have not run a campaign in Eberron because of the political situation in Khorvaire. If the Lord of Blades becomes a high level threat, so do his abilities, resources and number of followers naturally increase with him. He has done quite a bit with very little and I can imagine what he could accomplish at higher levels. My first instinct would be to increase those organizations that oppose his but then I feel like I am playing "level up leap frog," with numerous organizations increasing in power and then my original problem becomes exponential. I am picking on the Lord of Blades a bit because of his prominence but all of the published villans and NPCs have similar checks and balances that I am having trouble scaling without starting another war as the NPCs increasing spheres of influence overlap. In a relatively young published setting, I would prefer not to start a war that would void any future product releases. I am trying to look before I leap and see how other DMs are handling (or even experiencing) this problem.
JayDubya 06-29-06, 07:29 PM	In the Eberron game I'm running, I intend to have my players eventually face off against Ms. d'Vol at the very end. They're all of level 3 now, so it's gonna be a while. :rofl: There are a lot of layers of dangerous people that work for her, whether they know it or not, and that's a good main storyline focus, kind of like X-Files had the main alien storyline interjected with episodic "hunt the monster" content. In the Eberron game I'm playing in, we're L8 the GM has basically had the same problem you did, and decided that no one can really fight the LoBster or the Dreaming Dark without an army in tow. As such, she's purchased Heroes of Battle and I expect we'll be seeing the result of that purchase in a few levels. :eek The setting is ripe to explode with all that tension between nations and Machiavellian power struggles and evil outsiders pulling strings. All it would take would be for any of the villain figures to gain enough power to show their hand and try to take control... For the LoBster, it could be his Godforged project, or some other eldritch device he's working on to help him conquer the world. For Vol, that old spider, it would be something far more subtle, but sooner or later she will make her move and exact her revenge on the Aerenal elves and the dragons. For the ring Sharn as soon as his Inspired commanders give him the word.Dreaming Dark, they're probably just waiting until they have enough monoliths to start directly taking over minds on the Khorvaire continent while they keep shipping troops into Q'barra. They already own half the armed guards in Sharn, afterall, and Lord Sadran d'Deneith (S:CoT) already wants my party dead because we know too much. Sadran's already nearly capable of singlehandedly conquering the largest metropolis in Khorvaire, and there's an Inspired ambassador in every court in the continent. They've already essentially got Khorvaire in their hands, all they have to do is squeeze. And there's still a lot more villain figures / antagonists out there. In the game I'm playing in, a particular group of Valenar are one of our main rivals, and Merrix d'Cannith ain't exactly our buddy either, but we're still looking longterm at taking down the LoBster and raiding Sarlona. There's plenty of stuff to do in this campaign setting that I wouldn't dream of doing until later levels. Compared to Vol, Sadran is a small fry, and there's no way I'm attacking an entire Deneith compound full of Dreaming Dark agents and hundreds or even thousands of mind-controlled soldiers to fight some L10+ guy possessed with a greater Quori... :eek: until we're levelled and geared enough to actually stand a chance of getting to his throne room.
Flame_Drake 06-29-06, 08:23 PM	While I haven't yet run anything high level in Eberron, I understand your problem of maintaining the integraty of the world. Is there any "official" material for high level adventuring in Khorvaire? Has anyone run a campaign for higher (12+ Level) characters who would be willing to share some notes? I am impressed by the setting but I doubt my players would be overly impressed by the Lord of Blades combat statistics...and the idea of sending them repeatedly to Xendrick "on safari" for higher CR threats doesn't sit well with me when the mainland has so much going for it... Actually there is. While its not exclusively for high level characters, Keith Baker wrote an article in Dragon 337 on the Lords of the Dust. The content of the article can be used at any level, one of the more powerful Rakshasa is stated out, at CR 24, as is one of the Rajahs. Additionally five each of powerful Rakshasas and Rajahs are give a blurb along with their level breakdowns, and all at a CR of 18 or higher. All of them can serve as a excellent primary villain in a campaign. Even better, their major balance is the Dragons, who can't really get anymore powerful and who can eventually become the patrons of PC, emphasis on eventually, and you don't need to scale them up at all. The Rakshasa are also deeply evolved in the spy games of Khorvaire, which compliments nemovadit's suggestions. The prisoners in Dragon 300’s Dreadhold article aren't exactly pushovers either. Hope that helps, Drake
Errant 06-29-06, 09:29 PM	Several high level NPCs have already been detailed so I won't go bother naming them again, but I will point out that most of them are significant at least partly, if not mostly, because of the political power they have. They tend to belong to and/or run large organisations, so they're difficult to encounter on your "average dungeon bash" (Moradain the Fleshweaver being the primary exception to that rule). As has already been touched upon, once you get sucked into politics and running organisations you tend to lose opportunities for XP and your "field agents" can easily outstrip you in their individual realm of expertise (ie class levels). So don't underestimate to possibility for relatively anonymous high level champions who do the dirty work for the named NPCs. You might also want to go back and take another look at some of the places of interest noted around Khorvaire. Places where the average/general population fear to go. Places like the Black Pit and Yarkuun Draal in Breland, to name just two. Described in only the broadest details and apparently death traps for tradition forces/expeditions they seem perfect locations for high level PCs to be asked to investigate, explore or plunder if you don't feel comfortable getting political. They're also likely to be just the kind of dark black corners of Eberron where the aforementioned NPC champions are likely to be holed up doing missions for their organisations... As I see it, once you start to get into high levels you're either getting involved in politics and leading armies, or you're exploring the dark corners of the world where convential (lower level) forces can't go. Nothing saying PCs can't alternate between the two options, of course. Hope some of that helps.
Kid SixXx 06-29-06, 09:33 PM	Since the Search feature of the board is broken :mad: , use Google to look up Charlie Phipps' ever helpful Eberron FAQ to High Level Campaigns. Provided that it hasn't been pruned. :rolleyes:
Flame_Drake 06-29-06, 09:44 PM	Since the Search feature of the board is broken :mad: , use Google to look up Charlie Phipps Eberron FAQ to High Level Campaigns. Provided that it hasn't been pruned. :rolleyes: Search is never working I've resigned myself to the fact that the boards are just too big. Anyhow... Charles Phipps' High and Epic Level Adventuring FAQ (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=628177) Cheers, Drake
Kid SixXx 06-29-06, 10:03 PM	Search is never working I've resigned myself to the fact that the boards are just too big. Anyhow... Charles Phipps' High and Epic Level Adventuring FAQ (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=628177) Cheers, Drake Good man, Drake. Now if were only sticky. :embarrass
Revan_Revanthas 06-30-06, 05:30 AM	Thank you for your help everyone. I added the better version of my question to Mr. Phipps thread, so we'll see what he has to say about it. He seems to be the subject matter expert. Time will tell. What are your thoughts on a post apocalyptic Eberron? What if the Last War earned the title and decimated the mainland? It would still allow for much of the published material to be used and future releases or insights would lie buried in the rubble...
(Psi)SeveredHead 07-01-06, 05:48 PM	I'm currently running a high-level Eberron campaign. Three of the PCs are 16th level, one is 17th and two are 19th. Once my characters got into their teens, I found it harder and harder to challenge them in combat. In threads like this about high-level play in Eberron, I always see people rattle off the names of the world's big-bads like the LoB, the Daughters of Sora Kell, etc. as challenges to throw against the PCs. But these should be "boss encounters," not everyday fights. The villains gain in level (the level crusade, basically) and so do their MBEG (medium bad evil guys). You don't need to face Sora Kell's daughters yet, not when their own minions have reached CR 13 and five of them are an EL 17-18 encounter. So I guess there's little point of official stats for villains; by the time the heroes face them, they'll have outgrown those stats.
Elemental_Elf 07-02-06, 12:47 AM	I always figured the High Level adventures would take place in the Demon Wastes, Sarlona, the Elves (both Valenar and their homeland), the Dragon Contintinent and the various Planes of Existence. Baring another war, the PCs should have politicked the world by level 10 or so. Beyond that the Continent becomes a much less dangerous place. Thus you need to spread your wings and find other places to play and Politick. :weep:
Identitystolen 07-02-06, 04:04 PM	Just a few suggestions, possibly a few spoliers from the modules out now. Ideas are based in material presented in various Ebberon books, thus not really original, sorry: LoB completes the Godforge and prepeares to CKD (crush, kill, destroy) all the fleshies. This could tie in with Grasp of the Emerald Claw module, with the LoB retrieving the creation pattern from Cannath. You might have to be a little inventive with stats and abilities, but you could use the warforge stats as a starting base. Also for more high level fun, your PCs can try to take on his assembled army straight on or using guerrila tatics. One or more of the Daelkyr is feeling a little fiesty and is causing problems, take it out. One good spot to set this in is Yarkuun Draal in Breland, with the Daelkyr Bhodex'av'gr as the main villian. On a similar note, you could try to re-seal the manifest zone there that the daelkyr finally managed to break. Help the Adarians in Rieda and start destroying the Quori monoliths. Over load the cores and RLH out of there before it blows and/or the Thousand Eyes (Inspired KGB) arrive. All the while your PCs must try to avoid detection in the middle of very hostile territory (the non-inspired Riedians are fiercely loyal to their overlords), not an easy feat considering the psionic abilities of their enemy. Say the monoliths are a giant system of WMDs or going to be used to create gateways to Dal Quori for another invasion. Cannath/Prince Oargev/some university/etc. wants to dig up Making in the Mournland. PCs are to head the mining expidition in hopes to reach Making at the bottom of the Glass Plateau and find out what caused the Day of Mourning. This will eat up a lot of time and present a lot of challenges with keeping the operation safe from Mournland threats and keeping the workers working (would you want to working the Morunland?) Go to other planes and have fun causing trouble there. Retrival missions are probably standard here, but you could possibly do some pre-emptive strikes. Say lycanthropes on Lamannia are getting ready for a come back in a very big way, with Thrane and the Church of the Silver Flame at the center their ambitions. PCs are geased (or some similar method) into the battle of Shavarath and must take an objective to be allowed back home. Of course you kind of have to flesh these out a lot better than what I've put out. Hope this gives you a few ideas.
Revan_Revanthas 07-03-06, 10:31 PM	Let's say, for the sake of argument, that I am planning on creating a campaign that takes place over 20 years of my player characters lives (about three years of actual time). The players have been exposed to the published material available for the setting and are familiar with all of the major players, flavor and overall pulp fantasy genre that Eberron has to offer and they are itching to dig into all of it. It is my intent that this camaign spans from 1st to 40th level (utilizing the Epic Level Handbook). Try not to over-respond to the "epic" portion of that statement. I know the work involved with letting that animal out of its cage. Let's take a look at just one of the things crippling my ability to cement anything, shall we? There are around a dozen hostile organizations, each with their own designs on Khorvaire and, in many cases, the entire globe. The party could reasonably be expected to get personal with three of them and annoy as many as half a dozen. This leaves the other half dozen (or so) for the few good aligned (or even interested) organizations / NPCs in the setting to handle. If I abstain from increasing the villans in these other hostile / friendly organizations, they fall pathetically behind the power curve and become useless to the campaign. If I actually raise them up, one of them is bound to impact the world on a massive scale. Consider a 24th level LoB (or a 19th level LoB for the epic-impaired) with an operational forge running amok for two years while my PCs are dealing with the DD on another plane. I see some serious death, destruction, disorder and chaos across those areas Mr. 'of Blades is interested in. That is only citing one of the many villans who are certain to both advance and appear in the campaign. So, do I short change the PCs (and the designers) by leaving the other antagonists to rot or will one of you earn a metric ton of gratitude by solving the, "too many bad guys, not enough heroes" problem?
Charles Phipps 07-03-06, 10:36 PM	So, do I short change the PCs (and the designers) by leaving the other antagonists to rot or will one of you earn a metric ton of gratitude by solving the, "too many bad guys, not enough heroes" problem? Let the PCs raise an army. Okay, let's say your PCs are the Justice League. Suggest that they start recruiting an training henchmen and sidekicks or seeking out other people to join in the fight against evil. Want to bring the Aerenal Elves into the war against the Quori? Spend an adventure journyeing to Mountain Flame to recover the Crystal of Doodah that the Undying Court will swear the Elven allegiance to if you bring it to them. Let them convert some of their enemies that they let live whom aren't pure evil to the path of righteousness.
Revan_Revanthas 07-04-06, 01:23 AM	The Heroes of Battle supplement seems to be causing more trouble than it's worth in Eberron right now. I just finished reading 25+ pages of an otherwise entertaining thread showcasing the drawbacks of arming, equipping, maintaining and (by extension) recruiting an army. Besides, my characters would be better associated with the X-Men mentality than the Justice League. I, like you, tend to allow my players mythic status in both developement and gameplay and as such they lean towards directly engaging any legendary threats themselves. They tend to earn the Leadership feat by saving their cohorts and followers firsthand and I like to keep them involved with their followers by having them populate a community that the party champions. The "cohorts/followers by proxy" rules I read in the Powers of Faerun supplement would be a new addition to my campaign but as of yet I haven't considered their implementation as a means of commanding an army. I will definately give your advice some serious consideration though - thank you for the suggestion.
Charles Phipps 07-04-06, 01:44 AM	Let's stick with the X-men analogy... The players fight against Magneto (the Lord of Blades), Apocalypse (The Children of Winter), the Hellfire Club (the Aurrum), and probably the Dark Phoenix (Khyber) as their foes. The players are the ones fighting against the bad guys but nothing prevents them from effectively sending their trainees and cohorts off to go fight against the equivalent of the Mutant Liberation Front and Hellions. In other words, maybe what you really need is for the players to have a Generation-X and X-Force as things they're going to be needed to be told. Tell the players that as they fight evil they should work on constructing a network, alliance of nations, and orders of knighthoods. These guys wouldn't be expected to fight Apocalypse but they might weaken the other organizations in Eberron enough that they'll collapse eventually rather than continue growing.
Splendide 07-04-06, 01:58 AM	While we're talking about comic books, all the answers to the original question lie within. If you accept that every major `villain' organization has access to some high level NPCs that want to further the cause (not necessarily as faction leaders), then when their goals are aligned you can end up with some very interesting alliances. I refer you, of course, to The Legion of Doom (http://members.aol.com/SprFriends/bios-lod.htm). High level groups of characters need not meet one creature that is better than them....a group of NPCs with all the trimmings of a slightly lower level can suffice.
Revan_Revanthas 07-04-06, 02:49 AM	That would be assuming a lot. I don't want to force the players into anything, especially not creating an army, knighthood or other organization. If they wanted to do something like that, then I would certainly allow for the player driven plot device but I think it is a bit heavy handed for a DM to tell his players that it is required. I can see that my logic is fundamentaly flawed on one point but I have been unable to correct it; I cannot get past the idea that there is the potential for far more evil in an Eberron campaign than there is for good. The heroes in a long term campaign would be horrendously outnumbered. To use a mass combat analogy: Twenty archers fire a single arrow each, at the stability of an Eberron campaign. The heroes are the only shield of sufficient strength to protect against any one of those shots. One of the archers, statistically speaking, is going to roll a natural 20. Maybe the party can intercept that shot, maybe not. Irregardless, there are still FAR MORE ARROWS than the setting has been written to defend against. Am I wrong? I do appreciate the idea that the heroes can face off against a number of heavy weight enemies and make a real difference in an Eberron campaign. I just don't think that they can make enough of a difference without creating the type of organization that you are suggesting. Has anyone encountered this type of problem? I would imagine not, as I am probably overthinking the setting but I would be interested in finding out how to protect the integrity of so many antagonists simultaneously with only four to six characters...
(Psi)SeveredHead 07-04-06, 11:15 AM	Consider a 24th level LoB (or a 19th level LoB for the epic-impaired) with an operational forge running amok for two years while my PCs are dealing with the DD on another plane. I see some serious death, destruction, disorder and chaos across those areas Mr. 'of Blades is interested in. I don't. His Forge operates slowly. He can't speed it up without getting something from Xen'drik, and even then that takes a while. When the PCs are done with their one-week vacation after their hair-raising Sarlona adventure, they get reports of large numbers of warforged turning up in Xen'drik. If they ignore the hook, then the world becomes a much worse place to live in :D Twenty archers fire a single arrow each, at the stability of an Eberron campaign. The heroes are the only shield of sufficient strength to protect against any one of those shots. One of the archers, statistically speaking, is going to roll a natural 20. Maybe the party can intercept that shot, maybe not. Irregardless, there are still FAR MORE ARROWS than the setting has been written to defend against. Am I wrong? I think so. I don't think the villains are powerful enough to shake Eberron to its foundations on its own. They need help. That's part of the plot - the LoB can't take over Eberron without his Forge component plot device. (Otherwise why are the PCs attacking him? Why the sudden sense of urgency?) The daelkyr can't open planar access to Xoriat without some kind of plot device. The dragons attack Aerenal every once in a while; if all the dragons of Argonessen did that, Aerenal would fall. However, obviously that hasn't happened, and the dragons don't attack most of the time either. Why? Plot device! Those plot devices aren't discovered every day, or even every year. To put it another way, read through the Eberron history and see how often a world-shattering event occurs. Not that often. This isn't FR or Dragonlance, where seeing two or three such events during your lifetime is just expected :) Alternatively, there might be twenty groups of adventurers, most just a level or two less than the PCs. They can deal with these threats for short period of time, but they're not uber-NPCs by any stretch. The PCs come back from Xendrik, having destroyed the component (or sold it to House Cannith, etc), only to be told by a beat-up band of adventurers that they were "just in the Demon Wastes and barely managed to prevent a ritual to free a demon (a plot device!). Oh, by the way, they're going to try again. If they ever perfect the ritual, they can free thousands of demons. We're not going back; too many nightmares. Both kinds!"
ArcTan 07-04-06, 04:45 PM	Just to clarify some stuff, the Godforged is not the same thing as the Lord of Blades' Creation Forge, nor does it have any direct connection to the Lord of Blades that we know of. The Godforged is some kind of enormous, warforged-like construct that a bunch of possibly insane warforged are putting together to serve as their leader or their god or an idol representation of their god or something. It's not clear. It doesn't automatically seem like the sort of thing LoBster would approve of, since it smacks of idle superstition and takes away from his own power. (The Lord of Blades has his own clerics who gain divine spellcasting by revering *him* as the Warforged Messiah, after all.) The LoB has got his hands on a defective Creation Forge and probably wants to tinker with it to make it fully functional, but this is different from the Godforged project.
MysticTheurge 07-04-06, 06:49 PM	There was a spider-man story arc where the writer posited that there's a sort of cosmic reason that heroes end up fighting villians that match them so well. The X-men fight mutants, the dimension hopping fantastic four fight a lot of extradimensional threats, Spiderman fights a disproportionately large number of animal based baddies (vulture, rhino, scorpion...). Of course the real reason is that it makes for a better story, but maybe there's some sort of cosmic balance to it all. You can fairly easily adjust this idea to fit your problem. You worry that while your PCs are fighting BBEG 1, BBEG 2 will become over powered. Well just don't have him do that. Which ever evil empire your PCs are working to thwart is the one that is the biggest threat at that time. Then maybe once they've stopped Vol from reviving the tarrasque, they get word that the Lord of Blades has an army marching on Sharn.
Charles Phipps 07-04-06, 07:24 PM	I understand your take Revan and if you want to create a few extra heroes to fight against evil then by all means there's nothing stopping you. In our games, the players have met the following characters... The Ebon Dragon of Sharn (Batman) Pietre Buchvold (Sherlock Holmes) Jacob Hunter (James Bond) Red Fox (Solid Snake) Rudolf Van Ritchen (Ravenloft's Van Helsing imported) and even versions of Lara Croft and Indiana Jones The players don't have to be the ONLY heroes on Eberron you know. They're supposed to be the MAIN ones but there's nothing keeping you from establishing that there are others out there if it makes you think Eberron is doomed. It's not supposed to be doomed by Keith Baker's interpretation of it. It's supposed to be severely imperiled.
(Psi)SeveredHead 07-04-06, 10:23 PM	Just to clarify some stuff, the Godforged is not the same thing as the Lord of Blades' Creation Forge, nor does it have any direct connection to the Lord of Blades that we know of. The Godforged is some kind of enormous, warforged-like construct that a bunch of possibly insane warforged are putting together to serve as their leader or their god or an idol representation of their god or something. It's not clear. It doesn't automatically seem like the sort of thing LoBster would approve of, since it smacks of idle superstition and takes away from his own power. (The Lord of Blades has his own clerics who gain divine spellcasting by revering *him* as the Warforged Messiah, after all.) The LoB has got his hands on a defective Creation Forge and probably wants to tinker with it to make it fully functional, but this is different from the Godforged project. If a DM is doing that, they should make sure the PCs get wind of it. And how long has that thing been active?
Revan_Revanthas 07-06-06, 01:16 PM	I do like the phrase "severely imperiled"... You have all been extremely helpful. Once again, I would like to say that I am very much aware that I can focus solely on certain singular, or even aspects of singular antagonists. I would generally prefer not to but I am fully cognizant of the option. I have some much more coherent notes now (thanks in no small part to all of you) and I am a bit more comfortable with a living Eberron campaign. I have ranted about the general "impossibility" of creating a plot that included enough of the worlds many villans and political machinery to be "severely imperiled" without overwhelming a smaller, independantly minded, adventuring group. That rant, my friends, is over. I don't think that it's impossible, just extremely improbable. The most common response that I've received is basically to expand the only factor that the DM does not need to directly control - the PCs. All of your suggestions were great and I truly appreciate them. The problem is that I don't especially want to limit the potential of a growing world (or its BBEGs) to fit within the mold of "this many encounters of this ECL per adventure/scenario/campaign. The player characters should have allies. They should not be the only heroes in the world. I understood all of these points long before I began this thread. I did learn more about the question I was asking and that is oftentimes more useful than the answer itself. I apologize for what is unfortunately a rushed response but I have much to do and less time to do it.
Pelor_the_Shining_One 07-06-06, 01:41 PM	oops, double post. :(
Pelor_the_Shining_One 07-06-06, 01:46 PM	You could always just make somethign happen to start the war back up (it wouldn't take much), and blah, blah, blah, if the PCs happen to be aligned with a particular country, have them defend that country against armies, yep that right! put the PCs up against a couple of thousand soldiers :D OR If the PC were from Cyre, they may want to find as many cyran refugees as they can and start re-building Cyre! Rebuilding whole countries isn't easy, and it takes many life times AND there would be no shortage of enemies wanting to prevent the PCs from rebuilding Cyre. AND first they would have to find a way to fix all the wackyness and creepyness stuff in the Mournland. The possibilities are endless. Pelor_the_Shining_One
(Psi)SeveredHead 07-06-06, 11:23 PM	If the PC were from Cyre, they may want to find as many cyran refugees as they can and start re-building Cyre! Rebuilding whole countries isn't easy, and it takes many life times AND there would be no shortage of enemies wanting to prevent the PCs from rebuilding Cyre. AND first they would have to find a way to fix all the wackyness and creepyness stuff in the Mournland. The possibilities are endless. Pelor_the_Shining_One I don't know about you, but IMO, from a strictly RP perspective, if I were a Cyran, I wouldn't want to go (possibly back) into the Mournland. You'd need wild horses to drag me there.
Errant 07-07-06, 02:32 AM	I cannot get past the idea that there is the potential for far more evil in an Eberron campaign than there is for good. The heroes in a long term campaign would be horrendously outnumbered. Have you considered the ramifications of the various evil powers being opposed to each other as well as to powers of Good? The Lords of Dust, Cults of the Dragon Below, Dreaming Dark, Chamber (maybe not Evil I know) etc are hardly going to be happy sharing power so they're not just scheming against the good guys they're scheming against each other. You highlight this early on in the campaign by featuring clashes between various groups while later on the PCs may be able to *provoke* such clashes or even form (uncomfortable?) alliances with one or more groups to defeat other groups' immediate plans. Also, do your PCs have to be the only epic heroes in the land? Maybe CP's heroes (The Ebon Dragon et al) are already established behind the scenes and the PCs only learn their true power level as they themselves become powerful enough themselves. Whether its Eberron's League of Extraordinary Gentlemen, the Justice League or The Immortal Order of the Chalice there may already be epic heroes acting behind the scenes to keep the evil power groups off balance. (This would also explain where replacement PCs come from if some of the original PCs are killed off). Plus there's the possibility that the PCs can cripple one or more of the less powerful groups early on in the campaign (destroy Vol or expose the Dreaming Dark and persuade the rulers of the Five Nations to ally against their machinations for instance) leaving fewer opponents for later in the campaign. Finally, the PCs may be able to form strong alliances with existing power groups that can assist them when needed. Forming an alliance with the Gatekeepers for instance would be handy dealing with any Daelkyr outbreak/uprising. Just some ideas.
Revan_Revanthas 07-08-06, 01:00 AM	Whereas I am uncomfortable with rekindling the Last War, I was serioiusly considering having the party actually be villans. To clarify, not necessarily vile masterminds intent on destroying Khorvaire but more something closer to the plotline of Chronicles of Riddick - "In the past, evil would have been fought by evil but in these dark times it must be fought by a different kind of evil..." Any suggestions on how to 1. Choose the most useful (from a DM's standpoint) evil organization / entity. I was thinking that the daelkyr-spawned (Dark Prince) or DD might be an interesting genesis for the campaign... 2. Pit the forces of evil against one another. Again, if there are only so many conquests to be had and the antagonists are all after them simultaneously (a few groups at a time after one goal, then introduce another goal with a completely different set of opponents) 3. Find a way to redeem the anti-heroes in time to encourage them to care enough to want to "save the world" a few times (betrayed by their own, they avenge themselves on their dark masters and, in so doing, free themselves of certain evil influences) 4. Introduce a few Super Heroes (Phipps) as headaches and cameos 5. Not hate myself for allowing my generally psychotic players the long awaited opportunity to plunder a brand new setting without being able to poke them with the alighnment stick.