Post/Author/DateTime	Post
dorpond 03-21-06, 01:17 PM	I am going to start DM'ing Eberron but with level 14 PS's. After reading much of the materials, I find that a high level Eberron campaign will be much different than the standard core games. As you all know, the party will be higher level than just about everyone, even rulers. Yeah, I know they don't have the vast followings that the rulers have but that I not what I am focusing this post on. What I am worried about is the amount of things to do for the PC's at higher level. If most of the world is low level, are they going to be facing monsters instead of class NPC's? If all of a sudden there is an explosive amount of NPC's with classes, then that kinda goes against the rules of Eberron. So what kind of things should I have high level PC's do to gain XP and have memorable experiences? What kind of fun things can I throw at them? I want the fighters of the party to have fun and not be bored with the constant skill checks that they cannot do. What kind of things can they fight at this level? In the core rules, I gave all my creatures classes but that seems to not be the case here. Any advice?
mhacdebhandia 03-21-06, 01:38 PM	Here are a few suggestions: Your PCs can explore some of the most dangerous ruins of Xen'drik, containing deadly ancient guardians or the undead remnants of powerful giant civilisations. Your PCs can come into conflict with the forces of the Emerald Claw, the forces of the Lord of Blades, the servants of the Lords of Dust, the powerful aberrations of Khyber and their bound daelkyr masters . . . there are several organisations which are intended to be capable of providing opposition to PCs of any level. Likewise, while Keith Baker's philosophy is that the vast majority of NPCs don't have the capacity to advance very high in level, some NPCs are intended to rise in level as the PCs do and provide a credible threat in and of themselves - the Lord of Blades is the canonical example of an NPC who should be a dangerous foe for the PCs no matter what level they are. There are powerful creatures in Droaam which might overrun Breland or other nations at the command of the Daughters of Sora Kell. Virtually any in-game organisation or faction is capable of producing credible threats for any party.
(Psi)SeveredHead 03-21-06, 01:48 PM	I am going to start DM'ing Eberron but with level 14 PS's. After reading much of the materials, I find that a high level Eberron campaign will be much different than the standard core games. Perhaps. I don't think it would be myself. As you all know, the party will be higher level than just about everyone, even rulers. So what if the heroes exceed the monarchs in power? It doesn't mean a thing. The kings and queens got their position because they were born into it. (None of the rebelling Five Nations monarchs are alive, except Kaius, who is high level. The other four are the descendants of the original rebelling monarchs.) No one seriously expects these monarchs to live up to the exploits of their ancestors (even if the kings or queens pretend to - if you don't believe me, visit wikipedia and read up on some dynasties - they always fall apart [or lose power and become figureheads] after a few generations). However, these monarchs do have spymasters, high priests, court mages, generals and other fairly high level capable allies who earned their positions. Just not masses of them. They're backed up by mid level elite forces - again, not that common. (The US military has thousands of Rangers, Green Berets, etc, but in terms of sheer numbers that's just a drop in the bucket.) This is different from FR, where quite a few kings were 16th-level paladins or 20th-level fighters and would adventure to personally save their kingdom from invasion. Yeah, I know they don't have the vast followings that the rulers have but that I not what I am focusing this post on. What I am worried about is the amount of things to do for the PC's at higher level. If most of the world is low level, are they going to be facing monsters instead of class NPC's? If all of a sudden there is an explosive amount of NPC's with classes, then that kinda goes against the rules of Eberron. This is a common confusion. High level NPCs are rare, but this doesn't mean they don't exist. (NPCs with many levels of the heroes, like say 10 levels over them, are kind of rare. By virtue of levels alone the Lord of Blades is virtually unchallenged when it comes to leading the warforged of the Mournland - and he's got 11 levels over the PCs at campaign start.) Heroes don't face generic 10th-level guards, they face Red Cloaks (or whoever), an elite force hired to guard the Eternal Schema (or whatever). If the heroes defeat them, they'll face the Red Cloaks, along with their legendary (nearly retired) ex-leader, Grishnakh the Red Mage (a 13th-level sorcerer) and his buddy, Jake d'Deneith (13th-level fighter). Furthermore, classed villainous NPCs (and their close allies) gain levels along with the heroes. The Lord of Blades starts at 12th level when the heroes are 1st-level. His bodyguards and chief agents will also be gaining levels, too. But I wouldn't expect there to be more than 300 higher level warforged out of the 6,000 in the Mournland. And finally, there are quite a few monsters. Some can ally with classed NPCs. There's nothing with Buri, the Dragon Below Cultist (cleric 12) allying with Xophistes, the beholder from deep Khyber along with more generic mid-level NPC cultists. In the core rules, I gave all my creatures classes but that seems to not be the case here. Nothing wrong with that. There are classed dragons already, so why not classed daelkyr? IMO, I don't think more than 5% of the population (generally speaking) should have PC class levels. These characters gain XP at a rate similar (but not necessarily identical) to the PCs. So there's a small pool of potentially capable NPCs ready to challenge the heroes at any time.
DwarfPcfan 03-21-06, 02:09 PM	There's plenty of opportunity for high level in eberron. Argonessen, the dreaming dark, the blood of Vol, the lords of Dust. Eberron is probably the most epic setting around. And you know why ? because being epic in eberron actually means something !!! Eberron is not like FR where you can spin around yourself clockwise throw a rock in a random direction and hit an epic character in the back of the head! Being a high level character in eberron means being one of the worlds movers, shakers dynasty builders. Imagine what it could mean to have a dwarf wizard10/5 runesmith. He not just this powerful mage from that region. He's Aarun d'Mroranon, most wise mystical loreguard of Onatar's fist, scryer of the secrets of syberis, master of Onatar's secret fire and speaker of the true words. You seem my point... He's someone with the potential to change the world, with enough power to wreak havoc on an epic scale if his fury called for it. Most important of all, few people in this world would have the power to stop him, making him a truly grand figure, a figure of legend. Anyway that's my opinion...
(Psi)SeveredHead 03-21-06, 02:16 PM	I think much can be said about the PCs being (nearly) equal to the top general of Breland. I wouldn't say "much more powerful".
ekomega 03-21-06, 02:30 PM	I am running a game that has run from 1st level now to 13th level. Let me share some of my experiences. 1) Maybe it's just my players, but once they read the book and found out the King of Breland is ONLY 12th level (as are most powerful PCs), the party feels like it can do whatever it wants without repercussion. This includes trying to assassinate Jaela Daran, throwing Sharn Watch members off of the towers, and disintegrating anyone who looks at them funny. It's difficult to work around that attitude, and I've had to strongly discourage it so that the game might actually go somewhere (other than jail or death, which they don't like). 2) You really have to be clever about where you put high level encounters. If there's some ruins that people can access, that aren't sealed off, then why didn't the CR 17 Marilith just leave the ruins and attack the town 200 miles away? Nobody likes hiding in dirty old ruins. Deep dungeons and places where people can't go are really helpful, along with protections against teleportation. 3) Where are the PCs going to get high level items? According to one of the books, the Twelve only sells to dragonmarked members. Arcanix has a few high level wizards, but are they spending their time making magic items? In my game, no. Basically, the PCs have to quest or make every item above a certain power level, because no one is around making them anymore. 4) Scale up the levels of the prominent villains. If the PCs kill the LoB in one week, and the three hags the next, and a Daelkyr the third, I think it will get boring. I'll post more if I can think about it. I'm sure the standard high level issues apply.
dorpond 03-21-06, 02:41 PM	I am running a game that has run from 1st level now to 13th level. Let me share some of my experiences. 1) Maybe it's just my players, but once they read the book and found out the King of Breland is ONLY 12th level (as are most powerful PCs), the party feels like it can do whatever it wants without repercussion. This includes trying to assassinate Jaela Daran, throwing Sharn Watch members off of the towers, and disintegrating anyone who looks at them funny. It's difficult to work around that attitude, and I've had to strongly discourage it so that the game might actually go somewhere (other than jail or death, which they don't like). ... .. . Thank you, you touched on things that concern me. That is my concern. I worry that the player are going to have too much control over the big picture and in months, leave Eberron a mess because they did some earth shattering events like you mention above.. So hopefully you readers can offer some advice to prevent boredom (by not having constant fighting like in core) and destruction (by being more powerful than most others in the world). Thanks!
Psionycx 03-21-06, 02:41 PM	Ignore politics for a moment. One thing that is irksome in D&D is when people worry too much about nations and governments and who's "in charge". The biggest threats on Eberron care nothing about governments or rulers. The daelkyr, Lords of Dust, the Dreaming Dark...none of them cares about the nations of Khorvaire and none of them are impressed by the rulers of those nations. Think to all the fantasy/sci-fi you've ever seen or read where some government(s) is powerless in the face of a supernatural menace and individual heroes are needed to save the day. High-level adventurers shouldn't care a whole heck of a lot about what governments think or want. The perception that they should is largely driven by settings like FR where high-level NPC's generally are the government. In Eberron a lot of the major threats are either beyond the scope of most governments ability to deal with, or else they are of such magnitude that they will simply steamroller any government the way that the daelkyr brought down the Dhakaani Empire. Heroic effort by Gatekeepers and hobgoblin heroes were what really contained the daelkyr threat, not some government action by the Dhakaani. The same is true for modern PC's in Eberron. As they attain high levels they are in a position to actually confront a lot of these major Evils, rather than simply living in a status quo where Evil dispatches it's minions, the PC's fight said minions and beat them, and then the whole cycle repeats itself weekly. I also think high-level campaigns do open a role-playing challenge. For example, I think of Vanyel Askevron from Mercedes Lackey's Valdemar novels. His character experiences a lot of social problems and alienation that he thinks are because he is gay, but which are really because he is an epic sorceror and most people are scared of him. He obeys his king because of his sense of personal honor, not because his king (or anyone else in the kingdom) is more powerful than him. And he ends up having to face a massive threat that nobody else in the kingdom can possibly face, so it's all up to him. That's a high-level storyline. And that can be interesting role-play for PC's.
(Psi)SeveredHead 03-21-06, 02:50 PM	What are the heroes' motivations? I can understand why they might not respect the Watch or kill high level villains, but why mess with the King of Breland or Jaerla? Do they think they can run things better? Did they take the appropriate skills to do so? This is one reason why you should start a bit lower level. If the heroes wanted to get papers or something, they would have to go through a bureaucraft. Make this the same bureaucrat each time. Eventually they'll meet in a bar and start talking. The bureaucrat will tell you why being the king is a PitA - all the court maneuvering, fooling of foreign spies, hours spent doing paperwork each day, the oodles of time it takes to plan trips, methods of holding loyalty, etc. Make it abundantly clear that running a kingdom takes a lot of time and effort and requires the loyalty of a lot of individuals, such as military generals and nobles, who have their own agendas and want their egos stroked. By the time they're done, the heroes probably won't want to be king anymore, even if they have the social and administrative skills to do so. Recall what I said about "elite forces"? Sharn has a watch, and then their own elite forces. Since the heroes are 14th-level, even the Sharn's Elite Watch might not be able to handle them, although I can picture a dozen 10th-level PC classed NPCs giving them trouble, especially since they used Gather Information to find where the heroes were sleeping when they came to town. If problems persist, call in the army! The army's elite forces should have some higher level guys. And again, hit the heroes when they're asleep, or right after they fought some nasty high CR monsters and are really low on spells, hit points and stuff. (There was a shooting in Canada recently involving a single armed gunman versus several Mounties (federal cops). The gunman killed four of them before a Mountie gunslinger killed him. Before the gunman was killed, the Mounties called in SWAT teams and the army.) The heroes will have the hew* and cry raised against them every time they take a step, if things have gotten this bad. And don't forget that commoners can kick their butts if you have the DMG II - look up the mob/riot rules. (That mob material should be in the SRD.) And if worst comes to worst, have the king or some other high official come along and ask the heroes why they're being so disruptive. * Did I spell it right?
Just another user 03-21-06, 06:19 PM	another option for high level characters could be plane hopping, in Eberron this could be particolary challenging, because unless they have the right spells reach the plane itself is an adventure. For example the PCs find a schema in Xen'drik that describe a magical phenomenon alike to the Mournland and an eldritch machine that could revert the effect on Cyre, but to build it are necessary item that can be collected only on the planes, (and of course they are the only ones buff enough to even attempt to collect them) between the collection of the components the costruction and deal with the opposition they would be busy for a while. To stop the Pc to destroy everything just because they can consider the intervention of the dragons (or even just the coautl(sp) ). The dragons want the Prophecy to come to fruition. It is probable than the Prophecy ask for the five nations to stay more or less integer. I would not be surprised if there are dragons of the Chamber or their agents discretely watching the important figure of the nations and dragonmarked houses of Korvhaine that would try to stop them if they try something that you .. er, the Chamber don't like.
aelryinth 03-21-06, 08:25 PM	5 artificers with Wands of Force orb can kill any character in the game...two in the suprise round, and two every round thereafter. 75d6 worth of Force Orbs against a touch AC will, on average, kill any character with fewer HP then a 20th level fighter with a 20 Con. Quickening the wands will take out a 20th level barbarian with a 26 Con, every time. If they are a threat, I'm sure Jaela of the Silver flame could part with a scroll of Imprisonment for each character...or perhaps there's an artificer somewhere who can make and sell a Scroll of Soul Bind, one per Force ORb'd PC. they think they are invincible? Kill them all with a bunch of low level squibs, let them see the numbers, and start a new game. It's just not that easy, goobs. ===Aelryinth
DarkWarriorKarg 03-21-06, 08:58 PM	I am running a game that has run from 1st level now to 13th level. Let me share some of my experiences. 1) Maybe it's just my players, but once they read the book and found out the King of Breland is ONLY 12th level (as are most powerful PCs), the party feels like it can do whatever it wants without repercussion. This includes trying to assassinate Jaela Daran, throwing Sharn Watch members off of the towers, and disintegrating anyone who looks at them funny. It's difficult to work around that attitude, and I've had to strongly discourage it so that the game might actually go somewhere (other than jail or death, which they don't like). No, it's a common problem when your players are overcompensating for an inferiority complex. Your players lack maturity, obviously. First, it sounds like their favorite alignment is Chaotic Stuipid. Second, what you have just described is an "evil" game. Not recommended for players who can't play intelligent evil. 2) You really have to be clever about where you put high level encounters. If there's some ruins that people can access, that aren't sealed off, then why didn't the CR 17 Marilith just leave the ruins and attack the town 200 miles away? Nobody likes hiding in dirty old ruins. Deep dungeons and places where people can't go are really helpful, along with protections against teleportation. You should read the explorer's handbook. Great advice on how to handle teleport. Basically, when they are able to, make the circumstance undesireable. Teleport has a weight limit. You have to know your destination, etc. 3) Where are the PCs going to get high level items? According to one of the books, the Twelve only sells to dragonmarked members. Arcanix has a few high level wizards, but are they spending their time making magic items? In my game, no. Basically, the PCs have to quest or make every item above a certain power level, because no one is around making them anymore. No. High level artificers and magewrights, working for house cannith, using scrolls penned by the high level wizards, are making items. Finding them in giant ruins. Travelling to various planes to gain the parts needed to assemble the mighty weapon you need to take out the big threat. 4) Scale up the levels of the prominent villains. If the PCs kill the LoB in one week, and the three hags the next, and a Daelkyr the third, I think it will get boring. Hyperbole. Make it so that they have to seek out the Hags for a way to re-seal a Dealkyr, who thinks it would be a good idea to free this being it found in a Kyber dragonshard (Rajah), deep in khyber...
taski 03-21-06, 09:34 PM	One way to keep PCs with world-shattering power busy, is to be world-shattering yourself. When the old, poorly-maintained gates warding off Xoriat crumble, it will be up to the PCs to save the world from invasion. Even evil, destructive PCs can be motivated when hordes of slimy grells turn their stronghold into a colossal gibbering mouther, and their stash of magic items into a kender.
Psionycx 03-21-06, 10:43 PM	Also remember that world-scale problems don't have to be resolved quickly and easily (unless you want them to be). For example, there is no single focus of the Dreaming Dark (or the Lords of Dust or the Daelkyr). The PC's cannot end the threat of the Inspired by simply beating one super bad guy with a massive CR. And once they poke their noses into the affairs of these kinds of dark powers it's highly unlikely they will simply be able to call "time out" when they feel like spending some time hanging around Sharn getting drunk and molesting the Watch. Their new foes will be popping up at the most inconvenient times. The hags, and even Vol, are actually only middling threats compared to the big three extraplanar threats. A whole campaign can revolve around dealing with these enemies, both on Eberron and on other planes of existence. It can easily get as big screen cinematic as you allow it to.
DoveArrow 03-22-06, 06:21 PM	I don't think that the concern is over whether the PCs are going to take on King Boranel, or Queen Aurala. It's not even that the PCs can't take on the Lords of Dust, the daelkyr, or the Lord of Blades. The concern is over the fact that because there aren't very many high level humanoids running around, it feels like there's an upper limit to the level you can advance your humanoid NPC bad guys to. Personally, I call it the Eberron glass ceiling, because while there is no obvious barrier, few humanoid NPCs seem to be able to advance higher than 9th level. As a result, it feels like the kinds of encounters available to the DM are limited to monstrous, wilderness, or extraplanar encounters. In a world that's built around its urban encounters, that's a pretty serious limitation. Personally, I'm still trying to work my way around it. Note: Yes, I realize that you can put high level PCs up against mobs of low level NPCs, and for a while, that'll work. Eventually, however, the PCs are going to be able to do so much damage with spells like blade barrier, fireball, flame strike, and firestorm, that they'll be able to wipe out even large groups of 9th level NPCs without ever breaking a sweat.
Psionycx 03-23-06, 02:03 PM	Who says Eberron is built around urban encounters? Sure, a lot of the basic stuff focuses around Sharn, and lots of options for "political" role-play exist. But those are more just sort of nurseries for higher-level adventure. The other continents of Eberron provide open fields for higher level adventure. A typical giant is already a pretty hefty opponent for most low- to mid- level adventurers. Now assume that they are also classed, as many giants of Xen'drik are, and they can be a serious challenge even for PC's up at higher levels. And that's before you consider all the other monster options there. Sarlona is ruled by the Inspired, many of whom may be very powerful. Tirashana, the Inspired operative in Sharn, is a 17th level Psion. Inevitably Inspired of her level or even higher exist in Riedra and they will butt heads with any PC's looking to interfere in their enslaved utopia. Argonssen is crawling with dragons and nothing more need be said about that. Even Khorvaire has powerful threats lurking in the Demon Wastes or the depths of Khyber, creatures that could tear down Sharn if they were to get free. The generally low-level nature of NPC's in Eberron is not meant to provide a level cap. People are just conditioned to feel that way from years of playing in settings like Forgotten Realms where it's almost an axiom that PC's should never be allowed to approach the level of the setting's signature NPC's. If a Rakshasa Rajah breaks free and threatens to level a major city, the PC's help is desperately needed specifically because most rulers and their minions just aren't high enough level to do the job. In FR, when the PC's are needed to save the world it's usually because the Simbul is getting her hair done or Elminster is sleeping off a hangover, not because the PC's are special people. In Eberron they are special people, whose heroism is needed because they alone may possess the might needed to do the job.
Korhal_IV 03-23-06, 02:13 PM	One way to keep PCs with world-shattering power busy, is to be world-shattering yourself. When the old, poorly-maintained gates warding off Xoriat crumble, it will be up to the PCs to save the world from invasion. Even evil, destructive PCs can be motivated when hordes of slimy grells turn their stronghold into a colossal gibbering mouther, and their stash of magic items into a kender. That's pretty much spot-on. Though, turning your stash of magic items into a kender? That is madness incarnate right there!
(Psi)SeveredHead 03-23-06, 03:19 PM	[B]ecause there aren't very many high level humanoids running around, it feels like there's an upper limit to the level you can advance your humanoid NPC bad guys to. Personally, I call it the Eberron glass ceiling, because while there is no obvious barrier, few humanoid NPCs seem to be able to advance higher than 9th level. I see what you mean. IMO, the number of NPCs who have the "spark" is quite low. (The "spark" lets them take PC class levels.) Anyone with the "spark" gains levels at whatever rate the DM feels like, rather than necessarily slowly. I wouldn't count more than 5% of the population as having the "spark", but you could go as low as 1%. People like Prince Jurian ir'Wynarn (young, and already 10th-level) can serve as an example, but you're probably more interested in evil villains. Sure, 1% is low, but Eberron does have more than a million people, so these relatively high level NPCs do exist. They're just not 40th-level ubermunchkins and are rarely higher level than the PCs. I haven't run DnD in a couple of years, but I have been running D20 Modern. In Modern, an NPC is actually worth its CR. I found they work quite well in groups, especially if they have a Charismatic (like a DnD bard, but the bonuses aren't magical). I figure in DnD, you have to give up expecting these mid-level NPCs to be able to defend themselves. They will have lame ACs and saving throws, largely due to having lesser equipment and DnD's terrible AC-boosting rules, so they will be slaughtered. However, before they go down, they're getting bonuses to hit from a bard (so they can actually hit stuff despite lower BAB and magic bonuses) and direct damage is nastily effective in groups, too. (A 12th-level mage can do 12d6 damage with cone of cold, but two 10th-level mages, which together also equal an EL 12 encounter, can do 20d6 damage in a single round.) Think about which groups the PCs are facing. If they're taking on the Blood of Vol, they won't be just taking on mid-level evil clerics, they'll also be taking on their strange new types of undead and maybe the BoV cultist who created these undead, too. (Said cultist needs to be higher level.) Vol is 17th-level. With all of her templates and stuff she's a CR 20 or 21 encounter by herself. I figures there's nothing wrong with treating the BoV like a "city", so she would have a bunch of lower level lieutenants ("only" CR 18, spread mostly among cleric and wizard, I guess) and then twice as many CR 16 allies, and twice as many as that CR 14 allies, etc. The ECS does not detail most of Vol's minions, so there's nothing stopping an individual DM from creating their own minions. Give her a fighter-type bodyguard, an allied dragon, a high priest, a spymaster, etc., all of whom are capable, which is why they have been able to survive so long. Furthermore, important NPCs are supposed to gain levels. I see nothing wrong with giving a villain's "cabinet" levels as well (as in their group of most trusted minions). I'll use the Lord of Blades as an example, as unlike Vol he doesn't start at nearly epic level. He starts as a CR 12 creature. He also has his own "cabinet" of bodyguards, artificers and what have you. (Maybe Mr. d'Cannith, if you believe he went into the Mournland.) With the possible exception of Mr. d'Cannith, they're alll a bit lower level than him. The LoB gains levels as the PCs gain levels, not necessarily at the same rate, but he's still always going to be able to pose a difficult challenge for the PCs. His cabinet also gains levels, but at a lower rate. Marked for Death has a good example of a Lord of Blades cabinet member. I won't name him, except to say his name starts with "B". He was nastily effective on his own, even without the rest of his cabinet buddies supporting him. And note, warforged titans can gain levels, and I think they start at CR 9. Add one to his cabinet as one of his bodyguards or prime enforcers. In a world that's built around its urban encounters, that's a pretty serious limitation. True that. Is there any reason you can't use "less well known" groups, however? Like ones you make up for yourself? Eberron gamebooks sometimes introduce new groups, like "House" Tarkanan. I'm reasonably sure their leaders start at fairly high level (say 6th or 8th), and then go up. This topic comes up often enough that I think Hellcow should publish an article on "higher level Eberron campaigns". Right now, the highest level adventure is maybe 6th or 8th level, so there's very little guidance in terms of running higher level campaigns.
Calibim 03-23-06, 04:01 PM	Here are some things to consider about Eberron: ~ Nighthags: They are native to Eberron + have been around since the age of demons + are neutral (so have there own agenda and can be thrown at “good” as well as “evil” PCs) + can take class levels = Epic level Nighthag wizard!! You don’t think that’s scary? Well think about this, three of the daughters of a nighthag (Sora Kell to be exact) keep order and rule Droaam. ~ Daelkyr = BALEFUL POLYMORPH AS A SPELL LIKE ABILITY?? Not to mention you would have to wade through cannon fodder (Gricks, Grells, Chockers, Dolgaunts, Dolgrims), then to elite guards (Mindflayers with character levels & Beholders) before you could even face one. That’s quite a drain on resources if you ask me. ~ Radiant Idols = YIKES!!!! ~ Vol? Ok heck wit dat!! A Elven Half-Dragon Lich…did I mention she has 18 cleric levels. ~ The Daughters of Sora Kell (SP) are all HALF - FEIND HAGS. WITH CHARACTER LEVELS. And one of them can see the future! They knew you were coming. They prepared for it!!! ~ Mordian (sp) The Fleshweaver: It’s sez a lot that the Daughters of Sora Kell leave this 18th level Transmongerfier the HECK ALONE!!! ~ Rakashas…..they gain character levels you know….like wizard levels….and might just have “Summon Big Demon Thingie to Squash Annoying Adventures” memorized and ready to go. ~ Everybody sez the Dreaming dark and I tend to agree. There is nothing like a bad guy that just….won’t …..DIE!!!! Kill the vessel and it will just go get a new one. Unless you dimensional anchor it and then manage to kill it on the ethereal plane. ~ The Chamber: So let me get this straight. There is a group of Dragons…..who work together to keep an eye on the “lesser races” to make sure we don’t endanger this all consuming Prophesy of theirs? And you might even know that your are being used to further their agenda? Or they might send a couple of there agents to “gentle” persuade you to follow (or stop following) a particular course of action? And that thought does not make you wake up in the middle of the night in cold sweat?!?!?? ~ Mournlands……HELLO?! ~ The Demon Waste: Where DMs send their party to get their butt handed to them. ~ Xen’drik: Ok I know everyone uses this but I don’t think people REALLY understand the magnitude of this continent. It’s almost impossible to keep a detailed map of the place because you may only take 4 days to get to the ancient ruined city of Kar’Knap-nor, but it takes you 3 weeks to make it back out because the magic the giants used that shattered the land also effects time and space. And just what I can think of off the top of my head with out having my books with me.
Ryuu_Tenshi 03-23-06, 09:13 PM	Nothing wrong with that. There are classed dragons already, so why not classed daelkyr? Yes, yes, and yes. Consider that the Daelkyr presented in the back of the ECS is your generic Daelkyr, just like the elves, dwarves, etc in the MM are generic elves, dwarves, etc. The PC races in MM are averages, and you can easily have far more powerful versions of them. Except, with the Daelkyr, the average joe Daelkyr is already insanely powerful (pun unintentional). Then take into account that Daelkyr are very rare, even on their own plane, and that each one is probably unique. Then factor in customized symbionts and character levels. You have a monster on your hands. I think that the highest Daelkyr generals - the ones presented in the Players Guide to Eberron - are probably near demigod level. They likely have class levels, and lots of them... I wouldn't be shy about making them 20th level. Personally I'd make most of them psions or put them into fleshcrafter or some such, but meh. Maybe one can even have a daelkyr artificer variant similar to the psionic artificer, that gets fleshcrafting feats. They would have unique symbionts... for Belashyrra, I thought perhaps an "Eyes of the Beholder" small, .5-3 inch eyes with various effects. The largest eyes would simulate the central eye of a beholder, generating an antimagic feild, while the smaller eyes would work as the eye rays of a beholder. I had this image of it lifting up its left hand, and the five fingers and palm of that hand each sporting a terrible eye... And then there are the Rhakasha Rajahs, which are comparable to the demon lords in Book of Vile Darkness, MORE than a challenge for high level PC's. and if your PC's are evil and have already lain waste to the entire continent? Undoubtably the dragons of Argonessen have some of the prestige classes presented in Draconomicon. Or, going back to the Rajahs, what about a renegade dragon that belives himself a heir of Khyber? One could adapt the Disciple of Ashaldaron prestige class to this, replacing the balor with a rahkasha.
(Psi)SeveredHead 03-23-06, 10:42 PM	Or, going back to the Rajahs, what about a renegade dragon that belives himself a heir of Khyber? You have scary thoughts. I don't even know what that PrC does, but I still think it's wrong (in a good, RBDM kind of way).
Edymnion 03-23-06, 10:43 PM	Check this thread for ideas: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=607907
Pinky's brain 03-23-06, 11:23 PM	3) Where are the PCs going to get high level items?These kinds of items are rare, but they are no more rare than the kind of people who can afford them. With Sharn having shops with a 100K gp limit and 11+ level artificers providing infusion casting services I don't see this as a problem. Or did you mean to ignore those little tidbits from the Sharn City of Towers book? (I know a lot of people like to pretend they and the demographics dragonshard don't exist :p)
Telagaunt 03-24-06, 12:22 AM	High level antagonists I can think of would be Vol, the Inspired (an Inspired Inquisiter is about 18th level, and would make for good 'end boss' type deal, someone conspiring against the PC's), a daelkyr, maybe some dragons if you want to add a Prophecy plot, maybe the PC's exploring Argonnessen (sp?) are getting too close, and you can always create your own high level 'bad guy' and place him in some remote Khyber cult, or organization away from the typical mainstreamness of Khorvaire. And all of these are generally higher than 14th level, so depending on your plot, maybe a maze of obstacles the PC's have to go through, etc.. by the time they get to these types of characters, they could be more on par with them to do battle too. If your characters reach epic levels, optimal choices IMO would be daelkyr and the Quori. Both races live extremely long, and many range in epic levels (at least the daelkyr on Xoriat would, like an above post mentioned, it's probably typical many are near demigod levels). As for quori.. There are ways you can enter Dal Quor but it's more of a pocket plane of the Region of Dreams you'd enter. For example, dream travel would create a vortex within the plane for you to travel through (quickly, so as to end up to another point on the Material Plane faster, like the power is intended to) without actually stepping foot on the plane, more like... boarding it's rim, and you're safe. Quori Mindhunters use it to lure quori into the vortex and trap them as their rituals. Anyway, point is, doing battle with the quori would be hard, but there are ways you could bring the quori about to do battle with them, you might not kill them permenantly, but... would make for good exp for defeating them. Daelkyr there are a few already on the Material Plane, and they're most likely powerful, the ECS is the standard base version of one, no levels, average stats, etc..
mhacdebhandia 03-24-06, 05:39 PM	Besides, players who say "The king's only 12th level? We can totally kick his arse!" are players who shouldn't be playing in the first place. I mean, grow up.
ekomega 03-24-06, 07:30 PM	These kinds of items are rare, but they are no more rare than the kind of people who can afford them. With Sharn having shops with a 100K gp limit and 11+ level artificers providing infusion casting services I don't see this as a problem. Or did you mean to ignore those little tidbits from the Sharn City of Towers book? (I know a lot of people like to pretend they and the demographics dragonshard don't exist :p) I like the idea of PCs having to go on quests to get major magic items. It makes the game fun, gives everyone something to do, and really makes the item worth more to the player. I don't "pretend" they don't exist, it's my game and I decide if they exist. And I decided they don't. It comes back to a problem I had with FR. There could be a guy with a shop in Calimshan, and he has ONE suit of armor in his shop, and that's it. He wants to sell it. It's super magical and worth 100,000 gp. Now, if he actually ever manages to sell it, it's like he won the lottery. His family will have money for generations. But he has to wait 40 years for the people of appropriate wealth to come and buy it. The situation is just ridiculous in Eberron. If most NPCs aren't high level, and you can't assume a shopkeeper is high level just because he has powerful magic items, how is he supposed to protect the items he's selling? According to the S:CoT demographics, there are a small handful of 9th level wizards. They can't even make magic items that expensive. And yet there are more shops in that book with magic items worth more than 40,000 gp, than there are wizards of 9th level. Where are the items coming from? I don't buy "high level artificers". If there's six level 9 wizards in Sharn, why would there be 10 level 11+ artificers? That doesn't make any sense. Besides, players who say "The king's only 12th level? We can totally kick his arse!" are players who shouldn't be playing in the first place. I mean, grow up. I can't express my opinion on that (positively or negatively) since it's about my players. A lot of people have shared a similar sentiment, as does the DMG 2. I was just sharing my experiences.
Telagaunt 03-24-06, 10:58 PM	Well I think it's just most people are used to a campaign like FR, where its a) high fantasy and b) most of the powerful NPCs happen do be heads of various nations, organizations, etc... Although, even in FR, high level rulers aren't the majority considering all the major nations and organizations, and factions in the realms. For Eberron it's nice, b/c they're giving you a world that advances as you advance, but makes you wonder how Eberron will be in 10 years ;)
Lord_Cabby 03-24-06, 11:43 PM	I don't understand why people think that just because they are higher level than Boranel (or whichever leader), they can defeat him and take over Breland. Honestly, I could probably take George Bush in a fight if I put my mind to it. Does that mean I'm about to go to the White House and challenge him to fisticuffs? No.
Pinky's brain 03-25-06, 05:34 AM	I don't "pretend" they don't exist, it's my game and I decide if they exist. And I decided they don't.Is dorpond playing in your game then? The situation is just ridiculous in Eberron. If most NPCs aren't high level, and you can't assume a shopkeeper is high level just because he has powerful magic items, how is he supposed to protect the items he's selling?Well, you could have a security company remotely scrying the magic shops. Or you could have the magic shops store their most precious inventory at the bank. According to the S:CoT demographics, there are a small handful of 9th level wizards.1d3 + 8 rolled three times will hit 11 occasionally, and the wizards are not the interesting ones ... the artificers are. Also magic items do not run out, even if there was noone to create them anymore that would still not be a valid arguement for their inavalability. I can't express my opinion on that (positively or negatively) since it's about my players. A lot of people have shared a similar sentiment, as does the DMG 2.An unstated opinion though until now, from what you previously said I could only know your opinion because I am aware of the shop gp limits, the demographics and the fact that the DMG says everything with a stated price can be found. You don't like magic shops, fine ... but giving advice based on the hidden fact that you outlawed them is a bit silly.
Just another user 03-25-06, 12:08 PM	The situation is just ridiculous in Eberron. If most NPCs aren't high level, and you can't assume a shopkeeper is high level just because he has powerful magic items, how is he supposed to protect the items he's selling? According to the S:CoT demographics, there are a small handful of 9th level wizards. They can't even make magic items that expensive. And yet there are more shops in that book with magic items worth more than 40,000 gp, than there are wizards of 9th level. Where are the items coming from? I don't buy "high level artificers". If there's six level 9 wizards in Sharn, why would there be 10 level 11+ artificers? That doesn't make any sense. In Eberron there are thing that let you override that part of the rules, things like Eldritch machines, wondrous locations (i.e manifest zones) and other things like xen'drik's schemas let caster creates magic items even much above their caster level. If the DM wnat those items to exist he can easily find a reason for those items to exist.
mhacdebhandia 03-25-06, 05:12 PM	I can't express my opinion on that (positively or negatively) since it's about my players. Couldn't you ask them to take the game seriously?
Charles Phipps 03-25-06, 10:47 PM	It had the players meeting their old characters while playing the part of a court vizier. Their very HIGH LEVEL characters. "Your Majesty, I beg you to stop a moment and consider for a second treating these individuals like normal subjects. You are the King, the Lord of all you survey. Except, that is enforced milord by your armies of troopers and your wizards and the strength that comes from respect for tradition as well as your place as given by the gods." "What are these men? These men sir are those whom will think absolutely nothing of killing every single one of your guards if you send them onto their group. They will further never rest at that point from hunting you down and killing you because you have betrayed them. They value this perception of gratitude and their own infallibility more than they value your life or the lives of all of your men. Worse, your guards will prove to be meaningless to these assassins. They wield powers that can shake the very foundations of the castle and bring down the walls with such ease as you might consider them an earthquake. Their warriors can slice up dozens of armed men and take hundreds of arrow bolts without dying. They survive fireballs and bolts of lightning from the Heaven and seem to grow stronger as they kill." "There will be no place in Heaven or ground where you can hide for they will remember your slight and they will....if not strong enough now...eventually return to destroy you even if it is years later. They will consider themselves utterly and completely justified that you are a tyrant and evil along with beyond redemption. Worse, the people will agree with them. In our world, we are fallible men who sit on thrones of gold with crowns won from ancient conquerors. We placate the gods with gifts and we leave sleeping dragons lying as we resign ourselves to the unnameable horrors that dot our lands." “These men do not accept that. They wrestle with the dragons, destroy the armies of the humanoids…and by armies I mean ARMIES, and lay waste to the hosts of horrors both ancient as well as surreal with their weapons that individually match the greatest legends. They ARE legends already because we the weak and humble humans of the land are now close to being the dominant species because they have cast low demons, eldritch horrors, and wizards thousands of years old without the slightest hesitation. They can be killed but these men simply go forth to the Dark Realms to retrieve their dead. Villagers flock to their daughters and wives to them when they do not give slavish devotion that they hang those insipid enough to insult them. Believe me majesty when I say that if they want your crown….they could have it.” “However, this is not something you should be unhappy about. Merely accept that they are as close to the gods in living form as you are likely to meet. They will gladly help you destroy the Kraken underneath the depths and take the treasures of a forgotten Empire. Tell them to do these things and you may yet keep them from idly laying waste to great hordes. Bury the treasure they bring back for their aid is fickle and you may invite jealousy. Also, do not attempt to take what they feel is theirs for they know nothing of law but their own conscience.” “Hang me for these words if you think them treasonous but know they are TRUE.”
FireOpal 03-25-06, 10:52 PM	I feel your pain, OP, and live it every week!! My little darling pcs range in level from 13-15 in the wonderful world of Eberron. Are they cocky? Yes. Do they think they own the world? Absolutely. Until now. :angelhide They will be going on a nice field trip to Argonnessen. Will they feel cocky after that? Probably not. They also have no idea the the Lords of Dust have been watching them, following them and messing with them since way back when.... Also, due to one of their actions, they have succeeded in creating an opening to Khyber in the Mournland, another thing they don't know about. They may or may not want to deal with the half fiend dragon that is chained up in Q'barra, who is supposedly protecting another opening to Khyber. I also have Krozan on the loose, who is pervertedly interested in one of the pc's cohorts, who happens to be a cleric of the Silver Flame. I have a forsaker that is after them (they don't know about), a disguised Blood of Vol cleric who is spying on them, one of the House Cannith branches is ready to wipe them out and they managed last week to kill of a group of innocent dwarven miners, much to the dismay of several of the Mror Holds clans. They have been linked to the kidnapping of Haydith and Three (Five Nations)much to the dismay of King Boranel and King Kaius. Not to leave Zilargo out....the little darlings also got their hands dirty with the gnomes by being associated with the poisoning of a gnome diplomat, as well as the robbery of very powerful Zilargo dragonshards...... Seems like we are on the verge of another war..... Oh, but they have remained on friendly terms with Jaela. :D I mention all this stuff, in the hopes of giving you ideas of where to go and what to do. Now my pcs started in Eberron at 1st level, but even with starting at high levels, you should be able to make up all kinds of things that they can get involved in. I too was feeling like my campaign was hitting the glass ceiling as mentioned somewhere above. Its nice to hear others facing a similar dilema. All I can say is, get creative, get them off of Khorvaire.....or under it. There is an unlimited number of fiends, aberrations and horrors in Khyber........their next field trip :rofl: