HIgh levels in Eberron [Archive] - Wizards Community

HIgh levels in Eberron [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Nashad d'Thuranni
02-04-05, 02:02 PM This thread is inspired by the one about de dealkyr.

So, in Eberron it's very uncommon to be of high level, it's even rare to have a PC-class. How are you guys dealing with this? Is there like an end to your campaign when some PC's hit level 15 (a point in which they are some of the most powerfull creatures in Khorvaire) of does everyone play to level 20? (or even higher).

I am planning an final ending to my campaign, not right now but when the main plot has ended. My PC's will be about level 14/15 then I think, and very prominent figures in Breland (or beyond).

So, the question is: ending a campaign? Or playing along with uber-powerfull players?
Sarig the Genie
02-04-05, 02:48 PM Well why not continue? The Lords of Dust are proper challenges, and perhaps weird stuff in Xen'Drik, not to mention the Lords of Madness themselves...

And just because you're high level that doesn mean you have more power than kings ;) I'd say there's enough to do around even if you're high level :)
Hakan
02-05-05, 06:43 AM I always find, both as a player and as a DM, that high level characters are often very dependent on their magical gear. It's great when players are forced away from their strengths : Strip the gear from them then strand them in Xen'drik or Argonessen. I don't think Eberron has a cap on it's playability.

Another angle. Eberron is a nior inspired environment, where the stories aren't suppose to end well. Could your main plot line end up opening a Pandora's box. I used a huge quest in an Eberron Campaign, where the party adventured into Xen'drik to use a magical key they found in an earlier chapter, to open what they thought was a repository of ancient Giant Warforged compoents, schemas, maybe even a forge, instead it unlocked the body of fiend that was actually possesing one of the character's favorite swords. This took an item away from a high level character and made the whole party guilty for unleashing this fiend onto Eberron. The players weren't strong enough to defeat the fiend, thinking they were at the end of their journey, and having spent most of their resources to get that far. The fiend escaped, becomming their responsibilty to track down and destroy.

Just an example of ways to keep things going. Players love their high level characters. Why should they be forced to retire them. That being said, another option is to NPC 'em and have the players develope new characters whose back stories are influenced by the player's old characters. They boy they saved in that village when they we level 4 is now all grown up and insprired by his brush with the players. etc...... Keeps your players from feeling like their campaign never happened once it's over.

Anyway, your call. As always: Whatever works for you and your players.
Imruphel
02-05-05, 09:49 PM Personally, I don't like the NPC classes of Adept, Commoner and Warrior so I rarely use them. If I do use them (and I don't use Adept at all), the NPC will only have about three character levels. Any more than that and I consider the NPC exceptional enough to have a "real" class (and I include Aristocrat and Expert in that).

As for the low level paradigm, that's going to be broken once a few more novels and game products come out because the WotC designers simply won't be able to help themselves. After all, even Forgotten Realms began as a modestly-powered game world and it is now held up as an example of power creep (I don't necessarily agree but that seems to be the majority opinion).

Anyway, suffice to say that I prefer to simply stat up NPCs at the power level I think is appropriate without regard for the guidelines or suggestions in the ECS. Of course, this also means that the majority of stat blocks in Sharn are useless to me... but that's OK because I imagine that they are riddled with errors anyway.
Gurv
02-05-05, 09:55 PM And you felt the need to bring this to our attention because...?

A very subtle troll. Congratulations.
Charles Phipps
02-05-05, 10:19 PM I think its a very promising question...

Personally, campaigns rarely survive (in my opinion), long enough to actually make this an issue but I'm perfectly willing to always make sure that there's a bigger fish.

The keys to a good high level Eberron game though are....

1. Make your enemies fight smarter not harder

2. Rely on role-playing and you will have plenty of sessions where you don't have to make huge monsters

(Murder mysteries and succession difficulties are no problems)

3. Giving the PCs arch nemesises are always good

Guys who just won't stay dead are my favorite work for this sort of thing. They're always a few levels ahead of the PC as well.

4. Levels to monsters and other dimensions can always spew out something nastier

5. It's good to LET the PCs be epic when they've earned it

Eberron makes it clear that your PCs will become grand heroes in their careers, good for them.
lugnut71
02-05-05, 10:23 PM Don't forgot for good guys targeting those that are weaker that are close to them is always far more damaging than killing the characters themselves.
Ranxaroth
02-06-05, 07:33 AM When I read your post, I only had really to schools of thought on the matter.
1.) If it bleeds, it can be killed.

2.) With great power comes great responsibility.......whether you like it or not.

Personally, I like the idea from the others comments...Those next to the powerful are often the easiest / better targets.

Just a thought or two.
Dragoloth
02-06-05, 10:33 AM If your worried about challenging your players and dont want high level NPCs an army of low level kobolds, gonlins,orcs, gnolls, ect...can do the trick.30+ grunts(3-4level)and a 7th-10th level captian can be a hellish battle for high level PCs.Even if your group is slaughtering the grunts and it seems to easy you always have the option of reinforcements.If your group is getting wupped pull your punches.With the release of new material will come better or at least bigger foes.Just my opinion. :D :)
JohnnyONeal
02-06-05, 12:31 PM So, in Eberron it's very uncommon to be of high level, it's even rare to have a PC-class. How are you guys dealing with this? Is there like an end to your campaign when some PC's hit level 15 (a point in which they are some of the most powerfull creatures in Khorvaire) of does everyone play to level 20?
This is a common question, but a misinformed one. There are very few high-level good guys in Eberron. In other words, the people giving the PCs quests or fighting on their side aren't going to be able to smite the PCs if they don't like what the party's doing. But there are plenty of high-level bad guys in Eberron: the ehads of all the major organizations, the demons, the dragons, the depths of Khyber. The PCs won't be dueling with the king of Karrnath at upper levels, or even fighting human armies, but there are plenty of enemies to fight in Eberron... and plenty of enemies from other planes seeking to invade it.

Here's a very old set of quotes from Keith dealing with some of the issues around high-level PCs:

Yes, epic gaming is supported, and the campaign setting book provides suggestions for epic level gaming in the world. There are challenges that are suitable for epic level characters. The point is that are no NPCs of these levels within the civilizations of the world. Going back to the pulp flavor, one of the aspects of the pulps is that the heroes are truly remarkable individuals, and that they possess the potential to shape the world. There is no Gandalf or Elminster out to protect civilization: you're the best it has to offer, and only you can overcome those epic challenges.

[Couldn't high-level PCs just take over the world?] If that's the campaign you want to run... But just because you can defeat any force on the battlefield does not mean you can maintain control over lands you have conquered. If dealing with administration and maintainance of lands, internal politics, vassals, and all that is your idea of a good time, go for it (and I'd recommend picking up Dynasties & Demagogues by Atlas Games). With the chaos following the war, it's a perfectly good setting to try it, and hey, there are other forces out there who ARE trying it. And you'll still need to deal with the Lord of Blades, Xoriat, the Inspired, etc. if you want to be a conqueror. And last but not least, the absence of powerful good NPCs is intended to allow the PCs to rise up as heroes. If the PCs rise up as villians, well, as a DM I'd be likely to have a few new NPC heroes appear to oppose them -- the party the players might have been.

I'd also point out that in most civilized societies, the ruler governs based on tradition as opposed to personal power. Even in fantasy, well, check Lord of the Rings: Do you think Denethor could have lasted five minutes against Legolas or Gimli? But it's not like they just walked in and cut him down where he stood. If you don't respect the traditions of a nation, why should they accept your authority?

Actually, the issue of how a society can enforce the law when there are powerful PCs around is one of the subjects of [Atlas Games'] Crime & Punishment. And if you don't like the master inquisitive or investigation elements of Eberron, C&P provides a different style of investigator (Yes, I'm the author, and no, I don't get royalties).

In deciding what we could squeeze into the Campaign Setting book, stats for epic level threats were not a priority, because we had a lot of material to cram in and it's going to be a while before you're ready to fend off extraplanar invasions.

So yes, greater dangers are out there, and there will be challenges even for epic-level characters. The point is that the world will need epic level heroes if these threats are to be dealt with once and for all -- and right now, there isn't an Elminster out there to take care of them.

...[On the other hand,] it would be inaccurate to say that a mid-level character can handle everything in the CSB. Don't go messing around with one of the Daelkyr or an undying councilor. However, as far as full stat blocks go, the majority of NPCs are low-to-mid-level. Higher level NPCs generally receive overviews (the Lord of Blades is listed with his class levels, but doesn't get the full stat block) -- so if your party cruises up to epic levels in the blink of an eye, you will have a foundation to work with.

Bear in mind that Daelkyr can advance up to 50 HD, and a 50 HD Daelkyr would be a somewhat different beast than the 20 HD version statted in the CSB.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Nashad d'Thuranni 02-04-05, 02:02 PM	This thread is inspired by the one about de dealkyr. So, in Eberron it's very uncommon to be of high level, it's even rare to have a PC-class. How are you guys dealing with this? Is there like an end to your campaign when some PC's hit level 15 (a point in which they are some of the most powerfull creatures in Khorvaire) of does everyone play to level 20? (or even higher). I am planning an final ending to my campaign, not right now but when the main plot has ended. My PC's will be about level 14/15 then I think, and very prominent figures in Breland (or beyond). So, the question is: ending a campaign? Or playing along with uber-powerfull players?
Sarig the Genie 02-04-05, 02:48 PM	Well why not continue? The Lords of Dust are proper challenges, and perhaps weird stuff in Xen'Drik, not to mention the Lords of Madness themselves... And just because you're high level that doesn mean you have more power than kings ;) I'd say there's enough to do around even if you're high level :)
Hakan 02-05-05, 06:43 AM	I always find, both as a player and as a DM, that high level characters are often very dependent on their magical gear. It's great when players are forced away from their strengths : Strip the gear from them then strand them in Xen'drik or Argonessen. I don't think Eberron has a cap on it's playability. Another angle. Eberron is a nior inspired environment, where the stories aren't suppose to end well. Could your main plot line end up opening a Pandora's box. I used a huge quest in an Eberron Campaign, where the party adventured into Xen'drik to use a magical key they found in an earlier chapter, to open what they thought was a repository of ancient Giant Warforged compoents, schemas, maybe even a forge, instead it unlocked the body of fiend that was actually possesing one of the character's favorite swords. This took an item away from a high level character and made the whole party guilty for unleashing this fiend onto Eberron. The players weren't strong enough to defeat the fiend, thinking they were at the end of their journey, and having spent most of their resources to get that far. The fiend escaped, becomming their responsibilty to track down and destroy. Just an example of ways to keep things going. Players love their high level characters. Why should they be forced to retire them. That being said, another option is to NPC 'em and have the players develope new characters whose back stories are influenced by the player's old characters. They boy they saved in that village when they we level 4 is now all grown up and insprired by his brush with the players. etc...... Keeps your players from feeling like their campaign never happened once it's over. Anyway, your call. As always: Whatever works for you and your players.
Imruphel 02-05-05, 09:49 PM	Personally, I don't like the NPC classes of Adept, Commoner and Warrior so I rarely use them. If I do use them (and I don't use Adept at all), the NPC will only have about three character levels. Any more than that and I consider the NPC exceptional enough to have a "real" class (and I include Aristocrat and Expert in that). As for the low level paradigm, that's going to be broken once a few more novels and game products come out because the WotC designers simply won't be able to help themselves. After all, even Forgotten Realms began as a modestly-powered game world and it is now held up as an example of power creep (I don't necessarily agree but that seems to be the majority opinion). Anyway, suffice to say that I prefer to simply stat up NPCs at the power level I think is appropriate without regard for the guidelines or suggestions in the ECS. Of course, this also means that the majority of stat blocks in Sharn are useless to me... but that's OK because I imagine that they are riddled with errors anyway.
Gurv 02-05-05, 09:55 PM	And you felt the need to bring this to our attention because...? A very subtle troll. Congratulations.
Charles Phipps 02-05-05, 10:19 PM	I think its a very promising question... Personally, campaigns rarely survive (in my opinion), long enough to actually make this an issue but I'm perfectly willing to always make sure that there's a bigger fish. The keys to a good high level Eberron game though are.... 1. Make your enemies fight smarter not harder 2. Rely on role-playing and you will have plenty of sessions where you don't have to make huge monsters (Murder mysteries and succession difficulties are no problems) 3. Giving the PCs arch nemesises are always good Guys who just won't stay dead are my favorite work for this sort of thing. They're always a few levels ahead of the PC as well. 4. Levels to monsters and other dimensions can always spew out something nastier 5. It's good to LET the PCs be epic when they've earned it Eberron makes it clear that your PCs will become grand heroes in their careers, good for them.
lugnut71 02-05-05, 10:23 PM	Don't forgot for good guys targeting those that are weaker that are close to them is always far more damaging than killing the characters themselves.
Ranxaroth 02-06-05, 07:33 AM	When I read your post, I only had really to schools of thought on the matter. 1.) If it bleeds, it can be killed. 2.) With great power comes great responsibility.......whether you like it or not. Personally, I like the idea from the others comments...Those next to the powerful are often the easiest / better targets. Just a thought or two.
Dragoloth 02-06-05, 10:33 AM	If your worried about challenging your players and dont want high level NPCs an army of low level kobolds, gonlins,orcs, gnolls, ect...can do the trick.30+ grunts(3-4level)and a 7th-10th level captian can be a hellish battle for high level PCs.Even if your group is slaughtering the grunts and it seems to easy you always have the option of reinforcements.If your group is getting wupped pull your punches.With the release of new material will come better or at least bigger foes.Just my opinion. :D :)
JohnnyONeal 02-06-05, 12:31 PM	So, in Eberron it's very uncommon to be of high level, it's even rare to have a PC-class. How are you guys dealing with this? Is there like an end to your campaign when some PC's hit level 15 (a point in which they are some of the most powerfull creatures in Khorvaire) of does everyone play to level 20? This is a common question, but a misinformed one. There are very few high-level good guys in Eberron. In other words, the people giving the PCs quests or fighting on their side aren't going to be able to smite the PCs if they don't like what the party's doing. But there are plenty of high-level bad guys in Eberron: the ehads of all the major organizations, the demons, the dragons, the depths of Khyber. The PCs won't be dueling with the king of Karrnath at upper levels, or even fighting human armies, but there are plenty of enemies to fight in Eberron... and plenty of enemies from other planes seeking to invade it. Here's a very old set of quotes from Keith dealing with some of the issues around high-level PCs: Yes, epic gaming is supported, and the campaign setting book provides suggestions for epic level gaming in the world. There are challenges that are suitable for epic level characters. The point is that are no NPCs of these levels within the civilizations of the world. Going back to the pulp flavor, one of the aspects of the pulps is that the heroes are truly remarkable individuals, and that they possess the potential to shape the world. There is no Gandalf or Elminster out to protect civilization: you're the best it has to offer, and only you can overcome those epic challenges. [Couldn't high-level PCs just take over the world?] If that's the campaign you want to run... But just because you can defeat any force on the battlefield does not mean you can maintain control over lands you have conquered. If dealing with administration and maintainance of lands, internal politics, vassals, and all that is your idea of a good time, go for it (and I'd recommend picking up Dynasties & Demagogues by Atlas Games). With the chaos following the war, it's a perfectly good setting to try it, and hey, there are other forces out there who ARE trying it. And you'll still need to deal with the Lord of Blades, Xoriat, the Inspired, etc. if you want to be a conqueror. And last but not least, the absence of powerful good NPCs is intended to allow the PCs to rise up as heroes. If the PCs rise up as villians, well, as a DM I'd be likely to have a few new NPC heroes appear to oppose them -- the party the players might have been. I'd also point out that in most civilized societies, the ruler governs based on tradition as opposed to personal power. Even in fantasy, well, check Lord of the Rings: Do you think Denethor could have lasted five minutes against Legolas or Gimli? But it's not like they just walked in and cut him down where he stood. If you don't respect the traditions of a nation, why should they accept your authority? Actually, the issue of how a society can enforce the law when there are powerful PCs around is one of the subjects of [Atlas Games'] Crime & Punishment. And if you don't like the master inquisitive or investigation elements of Eberron, C&P provides a different style of investigator (Yes, I'm the author, and no, I don't get royalties). In deciding what we could squeeze into the Campaign Setting book, stats for epic level threats were not a priority, because we had a lot of material to cram in and it's going to be a while before you're ready to fend off extraplanar invasions. So yes, greater dangers are out there, and there will be challenges even for epic-level characters. The point is that the world will need epic level heroes if these threats are to be dealt with once and for all -- and right now, there isn't an Elminster out there to take care of them. ...[On the other hand,] it would be inaccurate to say that a mid-level character can handle everything in the CSB. Don't go messing around with one of the Daelkyr or an undying councilor. However, as far as full stat blocks go, the majority of NPCs are low-to-mid-level. Higher level NPCs generally receive overviews (the Lord of Blades is listed with his class levels, but doesn't get the full stat block) -- so if your party cruises up to epic levels in the blink of an eye, you will have a foundation to work with. Bear in mind that Daelkyr can advance up to 50 HD, and a 50 HD Daelkyr would be a somewhat different beast than the 20 HD version statted in the CSB.