High magic and low power [Archive] - Wizards Community

High magic and low power [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Pallis
05-08-05, 02:16 PM I was thinking about this while reading through the ECS the other day...
The world of Eberron and Khorvaire in particular is a heavy magic setting, right; a place where magic has become the 'technology of the age'. That technology has, possibly, led to the utter destruction of an entire nation and, now weakened due to years of war, the people rely more readily on magic than at any prior time.
With these factors in place, I'm wondering how to counter the growing argument among my players that this is a low power setting; where - by the twin tenets of tone and flavour - the pulp noir aspect of Eberron demands that the heroes are vulnerable, not all powerful and pay healthy respect to the dangers presented them.
And yet...with the magical marvels that are ever present, with the magic that runs through the very fabric of the world, surely the high magic/low power level for PCs is fundamentally wrong. In fact, is there an argument for high magic = high power, where epic deeds await?
I'm starting this thread to get everyone's take on this. Is the way you use the setting skewed to allow lower level characters access to items that would - in other settings - remain strictly out of their reach until they gained higher levels?
So...there's the question: does high magic = low power in your campaign? I'm interested to see your views, the arguments for...and against so that I can answer my players' incoming questions...

:thinks:
Tanvalis
05-08-05, 02:33 PM I don't think of the setting as really high-magic... because MOST of the magic out there are little items that make life easier OR BIG ITEMS that make life easier. The amount of "adventuring" magic isn't very high at all compared to other settings. Settings like Forgotten Realms have HIGH Adventuring magic, but very low everyday magic. SO, I can definately see an Eberron party being scared and vulnerable. *chuckle* Especially my own party! The DM had this whole adventure set up... but because of things that have happened to the party in the past we decided NOT to take the bait because we were worried about getting out alive... and comparitively we have MORE magic than we really should at this point and we're STILL worried.
The White Sorcerer
05-08-05, 02:57 PM To me, the amount of magic and how people view it is what makes Eberron a high-magic setting. Remember kids, high magic != high-level magic.
ekomega
05-08-05, 06:28 PM I think the term being thrown about for Eberron is "wide magic". It's all over the place, but very low level.
Kintara
05-08-05, 09:09 PM Eh, I don't know even how wide it is. It's not as though the regular person ever gets to ride on the train. I mean, there's a fair number of Magewrights, but they spend the vast amount of their time using their magic to craft mundane items. It's like they have a set of modern tools to make chairs and pottery. The regular person probably doesn't see much of this stuff, either, most of it going to the rich.

Really, the interesting thing about magic in Eberron is that it only seems to make a real difference to the rich big shots, perhaps with the exception of continual flame lamps. I suppose Sharn is magical, but it's more like a physics anomoly.

As for the tone of the setting, I think it's important to bring it down to the personal level. A PC is a unique person. As a Wizard, for instance, you are one of those big shots. Magic may be somewhat commonplace, but not your magic. Specifically point out that your PCs are in rare company. It's important to cultivate this to make the PCs feel like heroes. The main villains they're fighting are like Professor Moriarty or Belloq. Have the PCs read about their own exploits in the paper. Have the "important people" take notice when they arrive someplace, and have "the masses" a bit starstruck. And if no one would know about their adventures, maybe you should remedy that. ;)

Yes, the Mournland is scary, but the heroes should be thinking like people who identify with that kind of power (horrifyingly, or not), not be subjected to it. If anyone could cause something like the Mournland, it should be someone of the calibre, or potential calibre, of the PCs.
Cutlass
05-09-05, 01:51 AM One of the things I have been doing is playing with my own demographic models to try to fine tune the setting as I would end up running it. For Eberron I was figuring that a decent rule of thumb would be that at most 2% of the human population has the ability (or at least actually manifests the ability) to work magic as a member of a spell casting class (including people with dragonmarks).

So, for a village with 400 human adults, one would expect to find 8 of them (on average) who actually had levels in a spell casting class (or dragonmarks). The breakdown would be something like 2 magewrights, 2 dragonmarked people (probably not natives, but assigned there as part of their duties to their House), 2 adepts and possibly 2 people who had levels in an actual PC spell casting class. Yep, one could say that there are a "bunch" of them there, but they are likely relatively low level and really do not represent that much casting power.

Obviously the breakdown would be different for Elven (favored class wizard), Gnome (favored class Bard), Kalashtar (favored class Psion), and Shifter (favored class Ranger) communities. Kalashtar are something of a special case and it is quite likely that the majority of their population actually has at least one level in a psionic class (more or less equivalent to being a spell caster). However, for Elves, Gnomes, and Shifters I think it would be somewhere in the 10% to 20% ballpark.

I would be interested to hear other peoples' ideas on this subject.
Torgrim
05-09-05, 04:15 AM Just my opinion here, but....

To me all the spells that would be useful, in terms of technological uses are in the level neighborhood of 0-3. That being said, Ebberon is a high magic world.
But, the magic is very practical (in the high fantasy sense) and not overly powerful. So IMO, Ebberon is a high magic world, but not a high power world. I think that high magic/low power is a great concept and makes for a very fun, believable, and interseting gaming experience.
Pinky's brain
05-09-05, 05:08 AM Look at the dragonshard on demographics, there are surprisingly high level artificers. Not to mention that there are shops buying/selling items with a 100K gp limit in Sharn. The houses also provide magic long range communications, transportation and trustworthy buesiness partners ... so almost any item upto 10 pounds should be available with relatively short delay, and even heavier items should be available on order (after a downpayment is deposited using a house Kundarak vault of course).

Eberron is not low magic.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Pallis 05-08-05, 02:16 PM	I was thinking about this while reading through the ECS the other day... The world of Eberron and Khorvaire in particular is a heavy magic setting, right; a place where magic has become the 'technology of the age'. That technology has, possibly, led to the utter destruction of an entire nation and, now weakened due to years of war, the people rely more readily on magic than at any prior time. With these factors in place, I'm wondering how to counter the growing argument among my players that this is a low power setting; where - by the twin tenets of tone and flavour - the pulp noir aspect of Eberron demands that the heroes are vulnerable, not all powerful and pay healthy respect to the dangers presented them. And yet...with the magical marvels that are ever present, with the magic that runs through the very fabric of the world, surely the high magic/low power level for PCs is fundamentally wrong. In fact, is there an argument for high magic = high power, where epic deeds await? I'm starting this thread to get everyone's take on this. Is the way you use the setting skewed to allow lower level characters access to items that would - in other settings - remain strictly out of their reach until they gained higher levels? So...there's the question: does high magic = low power in your campaign? I'm interested to see your views, the arguments for...and against so that I can answer my players' incoming questions... :thinks:
Tanvalis 05-08-05, 02:33 PM	I don't think of the setting as really high-magic... because MOST of the magic out there are little items that make life easier OR BIG ITEMS that make life easier. The amount of "adventuring" magic isn't very high at all compared to other settings. Settings like Forgotten Realms have HIGH Adventuring magic, but very low everyday magic. SO, I can definately see an Eberron party being scared and vulnerable. chuckle Especially my own party! The DM had this whole adventure set up... but because of things that have happened to the party in the past we decided NOT to take the bait because we were worried about getting out alive... and comparitively we have MORE magic than we really should at this point and we're STILL worried.
The White Sorcerer 05-08-05, 02:57 PM	To me, the amount of magic and how people view it is what makes Eberron a high-magic setting. Remember kids, high magic != high-level magic.
ekomega 05-08-05, 06:28 PM	I think the term being thrown about for Eberron is "wide magic". It's all over the place, but very low level.
Kintara 05-08-05, 09:09 PM	Eh, I don't know even how wide it is. It's not as though the regular person ever gets to ride on the train. I mean, there's a fair number of Magewrights, but they spend the vast amount of their time using their magic to craft mundane items. It's like they have a set of modern tools to make chairs and pottery. The regular person probably doesn't see much of this stuff, either, most of it going to the rich. Really, the interesting thing about magic in Eberron is that it only seems to make a real difference to the rich big shots, perhaps with the exception of continual flame lamps. I suppose Sharn is magical, but it's more like a physics anomoly. As for the tone of the setting, I think it's important to bring it down to the personal level. A PC is a unique person. As a Wizard, for instance, you are one of those big shots. Magic may be somewhat commonplace, but not your magic. Specifically point out that your PCs are in rare company. It's important to cultivate this to make the PCs feel like heroes. The main villains they're fighting are like Professor Moriarty or Belloq. Have the PCs read about their own exploits in the paper. Have the "important people" take notice when they arrive someplace, and have "the masses" a bit starstruck. And if no one would know about their adventures, maybe you should remedy that. ;) Yes, the Mournland is scary, but the heroes should be thinking like people who identify with that kind of power (horrifyingly, or not), not be subjected to it. If anyone could cause something like the Mournland, it should be someone of the calibre, or potential calibre, of the PCs.
Cutlass 05-09-05, 01:51 AM	One of the things I have been doing is playing with my own demographic models to try to fine tune the setting as I would end up running it. For Eberron I was figuring that a decent rule of thumb would be that at most 2% of the human population has the ability (or at least actually manifests the ability) to work magic as a member of a spell casting class (including people with dragonmarks). So, for a village with 400 human adults, one would expect to find 8 of them (on average) who actually had levels in a spell casting class (or dragonmarks). The breakdown would be something like 2 magewrights, 2 dragonmarked people (probably not natives, but assigned there as part of their duties to their House), 2 adepts and possibly 2 people who had levels in an actual PC spell casting class. Yep, one could say that there are a "bunch" of them there, but they are likely relatively low level and really do not represent that much casting power. Obviously the breakdown would be different for Elven (favored class wizard), Gnome (favored class Bard), Kalashtar (favored class Psion), and Shifter (favored class Ranger) communities. Kalashtar are something of a special case and it is quite likely that the majority of their population actually has at least one level in a psionic class (more or less equivalent to being a spell caster). However, for Elves, Gnomes, and Shifters I think it would be somewhere in the 10% to 20% ballpark. I would be interested to hear other peoples' ideas on this subject.
Torgrim 05-09-05, 04:15 AM	Just my opinion here, but.... To me all the spells that would be useful, in terms of technological uses are in the level neighborhood of 0-3. That being said, Ebberon is a high magic world. But, the magic is very practical (in the high fantasy sense) and not overly powerful. So IMO, Ebberon is a high magic world, but not a high power world. I think that high magic/low power is a great concept and makes for a very fun, believable, and interseting gaming experience.
Pinky's brain 05-09-05, 05:08 AM	Look at the dragonshard on demographics, there are surprisingly high level artificers. Not to mention that there are shops buying/selling items with a 100K gp limit in Sharn. The houses also provide magic long range communications, transportation and trustworthy buesiness partners ... so almost any item upto 10 pounds should be available with relatively short delay, and even heavier items should be available on order (after a downpayment is deposited using a house Kundarak vault of course). Eberron is not low magic.