Post/Author/DateTime	Post
LewisLlynn 09-12-04, 09:19 AM	Please forgive my excitement if this has been posted already. If you look at the "Alphabet" column of the Speak Language table on page 46 of the ECSB, there are only thirteen alphabets listed, one of which is Old Common, a nearly extinct language. Celestial Common Daan Daelkyr Draconic Druidic Dwarven Elven Giant Goblin Infernal (Old Common) Well?
Saurenda 09-12-04, 01:16 PM	So the dragons somehow covertly destryoed the old tongue with scholars and explosions? I'm sorry, could you please explain this one a bit more. I'm still writing things backwards, and I can't see what is meant by old common. Do you mean the dialect from Sarlona or rather the giants language before they all started grunting?
Dex The King 09-12-04, 03:27 PM	I had thought we'd found all of them too . . . but, languages? Oh well, the Prophecy (or whatever coincidences, Baker's Dozens, second shooters, other explanations, etc.) works itself mysteriously, that it sure does.
ieattrollsforbreakfast 09-12-04, 03:48 PM	You missed one...Quori. That gives 14 in total, looks like the prophecy doesnt care about languages afterall :(
LewisLlynn 09-12-04, 04:09 PM	Oh, :censored:! :hoppingma Well, what if we don't count Old Common because it is, essentially, Common? Does that work? No, not really. Sigh. :weep:
patsmiley 09-12-04, 09:46 PM	Actually Quori does make it 13.... (according to pg 46-47 ECS) 1 Common 2 Celestial 3 Daan 4 Daelkyr 5 Draconic 6 Dwarven 7 Druidic 8 Elven 9 Giant 10 Goblin 11 Infernal 12 Old Common 13 Quori The odd thing is there is no language for the Gnomes
Saurenda 09-12-04, 09:52 PM	believe it or not I think gnomes speak terran, giant and dwarven.
Rajorke 09-13-04, 12:16 AM	how far does this go? just wait til my players reach thirteenth level they're gonna meet with a good ol' level drain
SmallPumpkinMan 09-13-04, 12:58 AM	actually, they forgot to put gnomish in, so again, you have 14, sorry..
Nightshade 09-13-04, 12:27 PM	Look at the Bonus Languages under the Kalashtar race description. It says that Rierdran, the human language of Sarlona, is one of their bonus languages. Could this be Old Common???
ieattrollsforbreakfast 09-13-04, 01:32 PM	Old Common is listed not as a language, but as an alphabet. If you look in the table, it does list Riedran as using the old common alphabet.
LewisLlynn 09-13-04, 04:48 PM	I was never talking about languages, just alphabets. Big difference. I have heard that the omission of Gnome was an oversight, but Gnome uses the Common alphabet. And YES!!!! It is 13 with Quori!!! patsmiley's list is the correct one! :ayyyy!:
ruleslawyer 09-13-04, 05:31 PM	Ooh, alphabets! So that means that each alphabet might be based, say, on a graphic factor analogous to the origin of a particular dragonmark? Hee hee...
ieattrollsforbreakfast 09-13-04, 06:06 PM	Wow, it really is another 13. I like the idea of each alphabet being based on a dragonmark. However if it was noticeable it would probably have been mentioned in the ECS. Perhaps the alphabets began similar to the dragonmarks, then were altered over time by society. When the real dragonmarks emerged, the alphabets have mutated to much for the connection to be easily recognisable. Does anyone else get the feeling we are reading to far into this?
SmallPumpkinMan 09-13-04, 11:41 PM	I was never talking about languages, just alphabets. Big difference. I have heard that the omission of Gnome was an oversight, but Gnome uses the Common alphabet. And YES!!!! It is 13 with Quori!!! patsmiley's list is the correct one! :ayyyy!: b'oh, I should have read closer :nonono: but anyway, one of my players is pretty freaked out by the whole 12+1 thing, so I'll have to tell him about this.
LewisLlynn 09-14-04, 03:45 PM	Let me start by saying that I am sure that the 13 alphabets was entirely coincidental on the part of WotC. Now, Trolls, I am sure that we are getting too far into this, but ask me if I care. :rofl: I think that for my campaign, ruleslawyer's idea would be plausible. So... If I may take the liberty to assign each alpha to a mark: 1 Common/ Hospitality 2 Celestial/ Healing 3 Daan/ Sentinel 4 Daelkyr/ Shadow 5 Draconic/ Storm 6 Dwarven/ Making 7 Druidic/ Handling 8 Elven/ Detection 9 Giant/ Death 10 Goblin/ Warding 11 Infernal/ Finding 12 Old Common/ Scribing 13 Quori/ Passage Anyone see any problems?
Saurenda 09-14-04, 04:53 PM	Perhaps Elven/Death(Deathless and Undead) giant/handeling (Slaves) Druidic/ Detection (They knew from teh dragons about the aberritions and thier return to Eberron) 1 Common/ Hospitality/Daanvi/Blue 2 Celestial/ Healing/Irian/Silver* 3 Daan/ Sentinel/Syrnia/Siberys 4 Daelkyr/ Shadow/Mabar/Khyber* 5 Draconic/ Storm/Shavarth/Bronze* 6 Dwarven/ Making/Thelanis/Eberron 7 Druidic/ Detection/Lammania/Green 8 Elven/ Death/Dolurrh/Black* 9 Giant/ Handling/Kythri/Copper 10 Goblin/ Warding/Xoriat/Brass 11 Infernal/ Finding/Fernia/Red* 12 Old Common/ Scribing/Risia/White* 13 Quori/ Passage/ Dal Qouri/Gold One missing plane/Dragon/language/moon/race/class I am quite sure I have most of them correct now
GrayS 09-15-04, 04:03 AM	Personally, I love all the 12+1s we're finding in Eberron. Whether they are intentional or not on Keith's (or WoTC's) part, who cares? It's cool! My players will have lots of fun figuring out all the possible relationships/conspiracies etc, whether those relationships/conspiracies are real or imagined! Hoody-Hoo! One question - is there a COMPLETE list of all the 12+1 "things" found so far - especially one showing all the relationships similar to Saurenda's list here, but showing EVERYTHING? That would be mega-helpful (in any format, text, pdf, whatever).
Saurenda 09-15-04, 09:30 AM	Personally, I love all the 12+1s we're finding in Eberron. Whether they are intentional or not on Keith's (or WoTC's) part, who cares? It's cool! My players will have lots of fun figuring out all the possible relationships/conspiracies etc, whether those relationships/conspiracies are real or imagined! Hoody-Hoo! One question - is there a COMPLETE list of all the 12+1 "things" found so far - especially one showing all the relationships similar to Saurenda's list here, but showing EVERYTHING? That would be mega-helpful (in any format, text, pdf, whatever). No there is not. Lewis lyn and Jhonen, and ChristheS had about everything expect alphabets. So now we have planes/dragons/alphabets/(No Moons)/(Constellations lack a precious 1, for 11)/Gods of host and those cast out from it Perhaps one constellation for each plane that is no Qouri and Xoriat?
Moleculor 09-15-04, 03:09 PM	Yarh, Druidic should definitely be Detection, especially since the majority of druids are half-orcs 'n humans, and they make up the house of Tharashk. Very VERY nice find though! :D
LewisLlynn 09-15-04, 03:32 PM	Well, I actually have objections to the suggestions made, but feel free to make a rebuttal. I thought about Elven/Death, but one can infer that the Mark of Death uses negative energy, while the Deathless use positive energy. The mark of Handling really has more to do with animals than handling other intelligent races. And though Druidic/Detection does make sense, I can't see Handling as anything but Druidic. So for now I'd like to stay with my original list. GrayS, the closest thing to a complete list is the unofficial list posted here--> http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=282875&page=1 by Wudwaen.
GrayS 09-16-04, 11:41 AM	I've been trying to compile as compete a list as possible, not easy given the totally UN-official nature of this beast. With my humble and very grateful compliments to LewisLlynn, Saurenda & Wudwaen for their help :bow: , this is what I've got so far. There are lots of contradictions (which I've noted), so I am hopeful that somebody can help sort this out into something slightly more "official"/coherent than it currently is. Keith, if he's listening, is probably laughing so hard at our attempts to interpolate and extrapolate, that he now needs major bowel surgery to keep his sides together. Keith, we're begging you, please put us out of our misery, and let us know the correct "official" relationships between all these "Baker's Dozen's". Anyway, here is my (very) humble attempt to bring it all together into one place: DRAGONMARK = DEATH (now extinct?) House = Vol Alphabet = Elven (Saurenda) or Giant (LewisLlynn) Plane = Dolurrh Dragon Type = Black (Saurenda) or Skeletal (Wudwaen) Host God = Keeper Constellation / Dragon God = Falazure Moon / Month = ? missing ? Dragonmark Race = Elf Abberant Mark Power = Produce Flame Least Mark Power = ? Least Mark Skill = ? Lesser Mark Power = ? Greater Mark Power = ? Siberys Mark Power = ? Region = Q'Barra Character Class = ? DRAGONMARK = DETECTION House = Medani Alphabet = Druidic (Saurenda) or Elven (LewisLlynn) Plane = Lammania (Saurenda) or Syrania (Wudwaen) Dragon Type = Green (Saurenda) or Copper (Wudwaen) Host God = Boldrei Constellation / Dragon God = Chronepsis Moon / Month = Lharvion Dragonmark Race = Half-Elf Abberant Mark Power = Detect Secret Doors Least Mark Power = Detect Magic or Detect Poison Least Mark Skill = +2 Spot Lesser Mark Power = Detect Scrying or See Invisibility Greater Mark Power = True Seeing Siberys Mark Power = Moment of Presceince Region = Valenar Character Class = ? DRAGONMARK = FINDING House = Tharask Alphabet = Infernal Plane = Fernia (Saurenda) or Xoriat (Wudwaen) Dragon Type = Red (Saurenda) or Worm (Wudwaen) Host God = Fury Constellation / Dragon God = Khyber Moon / Month = Barrakas Dragonmark Race = Half-Orc Abberant Mark Power = Cause Fear Least Mark Power = Identify or Know Direction Least Mark Skill = +2 Search Lesser Mark Power = Helping Hand or Locate Creature Greater Mark Power = Find the Path Siberys Mark Power = Discern Location Region = Darguun Character Class = ? DRAGONMARK = HANDLING House = Valadis Alphabet = Giant (Saurenda) or Druidic (LewisLlynn) Plane = Kythri (Saurenda) or Lammania (Wudwaen) Dragon Type = Copper (Saurenda) or Green (Wudwaen) Host God = Balinor Constellation / Dragon God = Eberron Moon / Month = Dravago Dragonmark Race = Human Abberant Mark Power = Pass Without Trace Least Mark Power = Calm Animals or Charm Animal Least Mark Skill = +2 Handle Animal Lesser Mark Power = Dominate Animal or Magic Fang, Greater Greater Mark Power = Animal Growth or Summon Nature's Ally V Siberys Mark Power = Awaken or Summon Nature's Ally VI Region = Eldeen Reaches Character Class = Druid DRAGONMARK = HEALING House = Jorasco Alphabet = Celestial Plane = Irian Dragon Type = Silver (Saurenda) or Red (Wudwaen) Host God = Dol Arrah Constellation / Dragon God = Tamara Moon / Month = Therendor Dragonmark Race = Halfling Abberant Mark Power = Light Least Mark Power = Cure Light Wounds or Restoration, Lesser Least Mark Skill = +2 Heal Lesser Mark Power = Cure Serious Wounds or Neutralize Poison or Remove Disease or Restoration Greater Mark Power = Heal Siberys Mark Power = Heal, Mass Region = Thrane Character Class = Cleric DRAGONMARK = HOSPITALITY House = Ghallanda Alphabet = Common Plane = Daanvi (Saurenda) or Thelanis (Wudwaen) Dragon Type = Blue (Saurenda) or Black (Wudwaen) Host God = Olladra Constellation / Dragon God = Hlal Moon / Month = Nymm Dragonmark Race = Halfling Abberant Mark Power = Charm Person Least Mark Power = Purify Food and Drink or Prestidigitation or Unseen Servant Least Mark Skill = +2 Diplomacy Lesser Mark Power = Create Food and Water or Leomund's Secret Shelter Greater Mark Power = Heroes' Feast or Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion Siberys Mark Power = Refuge Region = Talenta Plains Character Class = ? DRAGONMARK = MAKING House = Cannith Alphabet = Dwarven Plane = Thelanis (Saurenda) or Fernia (Wudwaen) Dragon Type = Eberron (Saurenda) or Brass (Wudwaen) Host God = Onatar Constellation / Dragon God = Aasterian Moon / Month = Eyre Dragonmark Race = Human Abberant Mark Power = Burning Hands Least Mark Power = Make Whole or Mending or Repair Light Damage Least Mark Skill = +2 Craft Lesser Mark Power = Creation, Minor or Repair Serious Damage Greater Mark Power = Fabricate or Creation, Major Siberys Mark Power = Creation, True Region = Cyre/Mournland Character Class = Artificer DRAGONMARK = PASSAGE House = Orien Alphabet = Quori Plane = Dal Quor Dragon Type = Gold (Saurenda) or Half-Fiend Red (Wudwaen) Host God = Mockery Constellation / Dragon God = Siberys Moon / Month = Aryth Dragonmark Race = Human Abberant Mark Power = Jump Least Mark Power = Expeditious Retreat or Mount or Dimension Leap Least Mark Skill = +2 Survival Lesser Mark Power = Dimension Door or Phantom Steed Greater Mark Power = Overland Flight Siberys Mark Power = Teleport, Greater Region = Lhazaar Principalities Character Class = ? DRAGONMARK = SCRIBING House = Sivis Alphabet = Old Common Plane = Risia (Saurenda) or Daanvi (Wudwaen) Dragon Type = White (Saurenda) or Blue (Wudwaen) Host God = Aureon Constellation / Dragon God = Lendys Moon / Month = Rhaan Dragonmark Race = Gnome Abberant Mark Power = Tensor's Floating Disc Least Mark Power = Arcane Mark or Comprehend Languages or Whispering Wind Least Mark Skill = +2 Decipher Script Lesser Mark Power = Illusory Script or Secret Page or Tongues Greater Mark Power = Sending Siberys Mark Power = Symbol of Death Region = Zilargo Character Class = Wizard DRAGONMARK = SENTINEL House = Deneith Alphabet = Daan Plane = Syrania (Saurenda) or Shavarth (Wudwaen) Dragon Type = Siberys (Saurenda) or Platinum/Silver (Wudwaen) Host God = Dol Dorn Constellation / Dragon God = Bahamut Moon / Month = Olarune Dragonmark Race = Human Abberant Mark Power = Shield Least Mark Power = Mage Armor or Protection from Arrows or Shield of Faith or Shield Other Least Mark Skill = +2 Sense Motive Lesser Mark Power = Globe of Invulnerability, Lesser Greater Mark Power = Globe of Invulnerability Siberys Mark Power = Mind Blank Region = Karnnath Character Class = ? DRAGONMARK = SHADOW House = Phiarlan and Thuranni Alphabet = Daelkyr Plane = Mabar Dragon Type = Khyber (Saurenda) or Shadow (Wudwaen) Host God = Shadow Constellation / Dragon God = Tiamat Moon / Month = Sypheros Dragonmark Race = Elf Abberant Mark Power = Inflict Light Wounds Least Mark Power = Darkness or Disguise Self or Image, Minor Least Mark Skill = +2 Gather Information Lesser Mark Power = Clairaudience / Clairvoyance or Shadow Conjuration or Scrying Greater Mark Power = Mislead or Prying Eyes or Shadow Walk Siberys Mark Power = Prying Eyes, Greater or Scrying, Greater Region = Breland Character Class = ? DRAGONMARK = STORM House = Lyrandar Alphabet = Draconic Plane = Shavarth (Saurenda) or Kythri (Wudwaen) Dragon Type = Bronze (Saurenda) or Turtle (Wudwaen) Host God = Devourer Constellation / Dragon God = Garyx Moon / Month = Zarantyr Dragonmark Race = Half-Elf Abberant Mark Power = Feather Fall Least Mark Power = Endure Elements or Fog Cloud or Gust of Wind Least Mark Skill = +2 Balance Lesser Mark Power = Sleet Storm or Wind's Favor or Wind Wall Greater Mark Power = Control WInds or Control Weather Siberys Mark Power = Storm of Vengeance Region = Aundair Character Class = ? DRAGONMARK = WARDING House = Kundarak Alphabet = Goblin Plane = Xoriat (Saurenda) or Risia (Wudwaen) Dragon Type = Brass (Saurenda) or White (Wudwaen) Host God = Kol Korran Constellation / Dragon God = Astilabor Moon / Month = Vult Dragonmark Race = Dwarf Abberant Mark Power = Chill Touch Least Mark Power = Alarm or Arcane Lock or Firetrap or Misdirection Least Mark Skill = +2 Search Lesser Mark Power = Explosive Runes or Glyph of Warding or Nondetection Greater Mark Power = Mordenkainen'd Faithful Hound or Glyph of Warding, Greater or Guards and Wards Siberys Mark Power = Prismatic Wall Region = Mror Holds Character Class = ? Let the arguments begin............... :twitch:
LewisLlynn 09-16-04, 12:21 PM	Okay. GrayS, though, of course, you can do whatever you want, I would advise you to go with my choices of alphabets, for the reasons posted above. I would also advise using Wudwaen's suggestions for the dragons, because they fit the god associated with it. Nothing against you, Saurenda :) . And, GrayS, I would like to return humble and grateful complements :bow: for creating this list, which must have taken twice as long as it would take to drvie me nuts. :twitch: I am going to burgle that list. :devil:
About Yea High 09-16-04, 12:57 PM	O.o o.O This "Everything is thirteen" search must be some kind of conspiracy theory ... and is wholly in line with the noir flavor of Eberron. As such, I support such a theory! Yea (still chuckling over the "Baker's Dozen" reference)
Saurenda 09-16-04, 01:10 PM	Okay. GrayS, though, of course, you can do whatever you want, I would advise you to go with my choices of alphabets, for the reasons posted above. I would also advise using Wudwaen's suggestions for the dragons, because they fit the god associated with it. Nothing against you, Saurenda :) . And, GrayS, I would like to return humble and grateful complements :bow: for creating this list, which must have taken twice as long as it would take to drvie me nuts. :twitch: I am going to burgle that list. :devil: First off thank you GrayS for crediting me. You shouldn't have, you did all the work bringing this great list together for us. Thank you. this is what I wanted to see. As for LL, I'm sorry guy. I feel more strongly about my choices. As soon as I get my books from home and a bit more time I'll write out justifications that may or may not change your mind. And yes I shall steal the list as well. Wonderful job GrayS.
Saurenda 09-16-04, 01:54 PM	I am sure the character class for the mark of making MUST be the artificer. Dear god! There are twelve options for each mark! *faints* I'm done for today.
LewisLlynn 09-16-04, 05:04 PM	IMO, these should replace the ?'s in your list, GrayS. They're not perfect, but they seem to be the best choices. DEATH Region= Q'barra Class= Barbarian DETECTION Region= Valenar Class= Psionic Classes FINDING Region= Darguun Class= Cleric HANDLING Region= Eldeen Reaches Class= Druid HEALING Region= Thrane Class= Paladin HOSPITALITY Region= Talenta Plains Class= Bard MAKING Region= Cyre/Mournland Class= Artificer PASSAGE Region= Lhazaar Principalities Class= Ranger SCRIBING Region= Zilargo Class= Wizard SENTINEL Region= Karnnath Class= Fighter SHADOW Region= Breland Class= Rogue STORM Region= Aundair Class= Sorcerer WARDING Region= Mror Holds Class= Monk Any ideas for improvement are welcome. ;)
Saurenda 09-16-04, 05:32 PM	I'm not seeing a mthod to the madness. First of Draguun should not be with cleric, if anything it should take fighter. I can see Thrane having paladin, but cleric would be a better choice. eldeen reaches, druid(maybe Ranger?), Detection Death-Q'barra, barbarian? Huh? Why? Barbarian is in no way a favorite class of these lizard folk, and the mark of death plays absolutely no part there. Passage, Lazhaar, Ranger? Why Ranger? Do they track well on the open seas? Mark of Shadow is elven I have no idea what it's doing in Breland. Scribing and Marking look correct to me =D Valenar and psionic classes? No, elves do not like to read minds. Mrror holds and monk? I don't see the connection again. I must be missing a big piece of My ECS. Oo; Hospitality-plains-Bard I agree with the first two parts but not Bard. Barbarian might be better here, unless it can go the the desolate wastes? Storm and Lyzhaandar House should be together shouldn't they? This is so big I may need to take more time. I am certain Making and Scribing are good though, happy with those =D
wizard of oz 09-16-04, 11:08 PM	The list with the all the different topics was good. I disagreed with some of them but hey, its good enough. what was more disturbing however is that if you group all the dragon mark abilities together there are 12 catagories. and that means we've missed one. crap
Saurenda 09-17-04, 07:40 AM	The list with the all the different topics was good. I disagreed with some of them but hey, its good enough. what was more disturbing however is that if you group all the dragon mark abilities together there are 12 catagories. and that means we've missed one. crap I know! Which means there are thirteen special type of pie on Eberron. One of which who's recipe was lost forever... Pherhaps every mark is tied to a different eldrtich machine? Perhaps every mark it tied to something even more powerful?
GrayS 09-17-04, 11:30 AM	I knew this would start a good "discussion". I wanted to be a catalyst for what will hopefully end up as canon, or as close we can get to it before Keith/WoTC step in and tell us the truth (we can but hope....). LewisLlynn & Saurenda have differing views on the alphabets, but if you look close, I think you guys only disagree on just three: Dragonmark/Saurenda/LewisLlynn Death/Elven/Giant Detection/Druidic/Elven Handling/Giant/Druidic Personally, I don't have strong views either way - I just missed that point of conflict when initially created the list. So I'll leave that one to you guys to decide on. Last one standing buys the rest of us a drink.....! :D I'm still learning my way around the boards, but if I can figure out a way to do it, I will re-edit my original post to show this conflict of ideas? I'll hold off on updating it to show the classes until we have more of a concensus of opinion - if that's OK with everybody? ------------------------- And now to really throw a new cat amoungst the pigeons: Can we include CONSTELLATIONS in this list? I know that there seem to be too few at the moment, but I'm sure that if we look hard enough we can come up with something to make the "Baker's dozen"..... :devil:
LewisLlynn 09-17-04, 03:37 PM	Saurenda: First off, the matching I did was mostly matching class-mark or region-mark. I wasn't much paying attention to region-class. To try to do it so that everything makes sense would be near impossible. Second, I did say that some of my choices I was not entirely happy with. Some of your objections I agree with. Trying to match entirely coincidental groups of 13s is difficult!!! Third, there are a few I would like to counter: Passage, Lhazaar, Ranger: As I said, I matched Passage- Ranger (they move overland a lot) and Passage-Lhazaar (sea travel). I admit that Lhazaar-Ranger doesn't make a lot of sense, but one can't have everything. Shadow, Breland: Sharn is the home of House Phiarlan, and is a crime-ridden city. Again, an iffy match. Detection, Valenar, Psionics: Another mark-region/mark-class. I wasn't even trying to match Valenar and Psionics. Warding, Mror, Monk: Another of the above. Hospitality, Talenta, Bard: First, I don't see barbarians as being particularly hospitable.... Second, I chose bard because the "friendly and welcoming nature" of a bard is legendary. I don't know what you mean by "Lyzhaandar House". Finally, Saurenda, if you can create a comprehensive list of Mark-Region-Class where all three make sense together, I would be more than willing to accept defeat. :schemes:
LewisLlynn 09-17-04, 03:39 PM	GrayS, the "Dragon God" entry is the same as the constellations. Sorry :D .
Saurenda 09-17-04, 04:12 PM	\ Finally, Saurenda, if you can create a comprehensive list of Mark-Region-Class where all three make sense together, I would be more than willing to accept defeat. :schemes: Defeat of what? What are you talking about I thought we were all in this together?
LewisLlynn 09-19-04, 07:59 AM	Defeat of what? What are you talking about I thought we were all in this together? It's just a joke. :) We seem to be going back and forth throwing our ideas at eachother and dismissing eachother's ideas.
GrayS 09-20-04, 04:12 AM	D'oh.... That will teach me to update stuff without having my books to hand. Original list has now been updated, and I've also added my own "ever-so-'umble" thoughts on the classes debate. I know this will cause somebody to revile me as the next anti-chr*st, but they look like simple no-brainers to little old me.... :D Handling = Druid class ? After all, the Handling mark is all about working with animals? Healing = Cleric class ? Again, am I being too obvious? We've all cried "Medic!" to have the cleric come fix us up in the middle of combat...... Anyway, thanks for pointing out my obvious mistake of confusing Dragon Gods & Constellations as seperate things.
Alexander_Dane 09-20-04, 12:57 PM	Passage, Lhazaar, Ranger: As I said, I matched Passage- Ranger (they move overland a lot) and Passage-Lhazaar (sea travel). I admit that Lhazaar-Ranger doesn't make a lot of sense, but one can't have everything. Actually, the ranger class is the only one that would really makes sence here. A re-read the defination of ranger in the PHB, there can be a ranger for any enviroment. Hospitality, Talenta, Bard: First, I don't see barbarians as being particularly hospitable.... Second, I chose bard because the "friendly and welcoming nature" of a bard is legendary. If you view barbarians as a savages then would agree with you, but this would not be a broad interpretation of the class. Barbarians as a class have endured things that give them the abilities they have, its not to say that a barbarian cant be the local dockworker or storekeep... just dont make him mad!! Alex