Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Charles Phipps 03-10-05, 05:57 PM	Hey guys, this is a thread for how you've adapted the 'flavor' of places to to your campaigns. In my campaigns, I realized that I needed a "Nazi" country so I decided to take Karrnath and merge it with some Falknovian elements from "Ravenloft." King Kaius is now the Kingfurher, impaling is the most common form of execution, there's a secret police running throughout the entire place (I stole more from Azalin's Kargat than anything else here), and Kaius' artificers are constantly working on weapons technology for when, not if, the peace breaks down. I'm not sure when I should insert the elements that Kaius is rapidly anti-nonhuman. On a like note, Breeland is America and Sharn is New York City. The place a cosmopolitian blend of everything around. They don't expect at ALL what's comming...muhahahahahaha. Aundair more or less gets the role of being England in my write ups and I have culture very different there. Far more rigid and formal than anything else in the nations. On a like note, Thrane I'm making the people alot more closer to Spanish influence than anything else. (I guess that makes the people from Cyre, French. Sucks to be them I guess) I definitely have done the optional "Hobgoblins are Japanese" bit as well. It helps establish things somewhat and makes sure that the players have sense of distinct culture in Eberron. How about you guys?
Just another user 03-10-05, 06:40 PM	Why don't you make Sarlona the Nazi? They are almost perfect without even trying, with the Uber-race(inspired) and the persecution of a minority (kalhastar) and the secret police/spy network (dreaming dark).
Charles Phipps 03-10-05, 06:58 PM	Why don't you make Sarlona the Nazi? They are almost perfect without even trying, with the Uber-race(inspired) and the persecution of a minority (kalhastar) and the secret police/spy network (dreaming dark). Another bit of homebrewed. Largely because the Quorli are the G'ould in my game if you know Stargate. You can't really have a racial agenda because humans are cattle. They merge with them and are worshipped as gods across Sarlona in tiny little cults with their Jaffa (Inspired) handling the whole stuff. You can't really call the Quorli Nazis because they're aliens. They don't think like human beings and while you can get away with Vampire Nazis, it really destroys the whole "monster mythology" of Indiana Jones flavor in the fact that they're occultist humans and not Cthulhuian monsters. I have Sarlona as an exotic place of mystery and weird cults. Khovaire is in direct danger though if Kaius is a tyrant and plotting against everyone else with spies and so forth.
Darkest90 03-10-05, 07:49 PM	Blah, try not to give everything in Eberron an RL equivalent. Why not have your Nazis be aliens like the Quori. Its something different, its something new. I think the only changes I have made to Eberron are the population numbers and the racial percentages. Tweaked it to what I liked. For example, instead of 200,000 in Sharn, in my campaign there is 7,940,900. Humans are generally less dominant in all of the countries, and the Other percentage in the nations is much larger.
Charles Phipps 03-10-05, 08:00 PM	Blah, try not to give everything in Eberron an RL equivalent. Why not have your Nazis be aliens like the Quori. Its something different, its something new. Largely, because it would be far less enjoyable and I'd think it silly. The Quorli should be unadvanced and godlike with their control being a destructive element to civilization. I think they work much better as ancient gods/parasites than a modernized industrial evil. I think the only changes I have made to Eberron are the population numbers and the racial percentages. Tweaked it to what I liked. For example, instead of 200,000 in Sharn, in my campaign there is 7,940,900. Humans are generally less dominant in all of the countries, and the Other percentage in the nations is much larger. Largely, I believe Eberron works for me because the campaign is largely vaguely defined and thus plenty of room for expansion on theme and ideas IMHO.
Ohtar Turinson 03-11-05, 12:19 AM	While I agree that the Quori are not by any means the "Nazi" group, I don't think Karrnath makes a good Nazi power either. I think Kaius is supposed to be the one trying to maintain the peace and to drive out the corrupting influence of the Blood of Vol. He just uses dubious means to achieve all this. Being a totalitarian ruler doesn't make him a Nazi. I think its an interesting bit of irony that the CG queen of Aundair is the most eager to restart the last war, and the the LE vampire is the one trying to keep the peace. On another note: I disagree with the idea of RL cultures in Eberron. I think that while drawing certain aspects makes sense, there are no direct analogies, which is something I like about it. Saying "They're like Spain/Germany/England/Whatever" is too simplistic. You can say "Breland is like the US"... but other than the upholding of the old Galifarian version of Freedom, they aren't very US like. They have a king, a noble class, a parliament... they're probably closer to England than anyone else is, actually. By the end of the 1800's, England tended strongly towards anti-slavery, and had a similar government system (and there are a lot of problems with that analogy) Thrane has some aspects of Spain (lack of seperation of church and state, notably) but there's a lot of the Vatican in there too, and Rome and a dozen German Church-states. And the way they fought everyone on and off adds an element of Napoleonic France, too. Aundair is even harder to name, and so is Cyre; Cyre was a "tech" nation it seems like, wealthy and prosperous (That has some aspects of "US" written on it- I remember reading a 19th century commentary about how gadget obsessed the USA was). Aundair recently lost more than half of its territory, and hopes to regain it with more fighting; that matches pretty much every nation in Europe at some point or another. Essentially, I think the best way to look at the five nations is "European, if Europe had Jungles and was a Full Continent"
darkthought 03-11-05, 01:03 AM	*Sigh* Why does everybody villify Karrnath? One king does what he thinks is right to save his nation from destruction by signing a pact with the devil, and the entire population is considered to be Nazi. It was a risky chance Kaius took, and it eventually bit him in the ass. Keith has suggested that the Order of the Emerald Claw would be a good Nazi organization. If you have to use a Nazi-ish regieme, then think of them as the Nazi's after they lost WWII. Kicked out of their home country, and denounced by just about everyone. I think Keith said somewhere that Karrnath is similar to the Romans, except without an emperor, you have a vampire king. (Which some of the populace would consider god-like...) Personally, I like to use the Valenar as Nazis. A "Master" race of elves skirmishing with the "lesser" races of Human, goblinoids, and halflings. They are very elitist, and dislike half-elves because they're part human. (Yes, I'm a Karrnath fanboy and am sick of "goody goody elves." ;) )
Charles Phipps 03-11-05, 03:05 AM	*Sigh* Why does everybody villify Karrnath? One king does what he thinks is right to save his nation from destruction by signing a pact with the devil, and the entire population is considered to be Nazi. It was a risky chance Kaius took, and it eventually bit him in the ass. Well largely its rather a waste to have a country ruled by a LE vampire, have an army of zombies, and a large population that worships blood and death and do NOTHING with it. Yeah, its funny for a few seconds to have the country under a undead necrocracy be good (it's funny in Aerenal) but its a bit of a waste to not put it to use. Players don't want to fight CG heroes. Keith has suggested that the Order of the Emerald Claw would be a good Nazi organization. If you have to use a Nazi-ish regieme, then think of them as the Nazi's after they lost WWII. Kicked out of their home country, and denounced by just about everyone. I think Keith said somewhere that Karrnath is similar to the Romans, except without an emperor, you have a vampire king. (Which some of the populace would consider god-like...) My campaign is a build up to the Second Great War. There's no reconstruction because everyone's just arming for round two. I think largely, I'm less interested in making direct analogues to nations than trying to come up for "flavor" for lands. Personally, I like to use the Valenar as Nazis. A "Master" race of elves skirmishing with the "lesser" races of Human, goblinoids, and halflings. They are very elitist, and dislike half-elves because they're part human. I like the Valenar as largely belligerent because they have their homeland more than anything else. (Yes, I'm a Karrnath fanboy and am sick of "goody goody elves." ;) ) Goody goody elves have Drow, Birthright, Athas, hyper racists in every campaign setting, and routinly make titnaically stupid mistakes in Dragonlance. No offense, when are we going to see the goody goody elves again?
Docrailgun 03-11-05, 11:37 AM	To me, that's one of the good things about this setting... PCs may _have_ to fight CG heroes someday. They might have to face some moral quandries, which is much more interesting than just contantly smiting evil. [QUOTE=Charles Phipps]Well largely its rather a waste to have a country ruled by a LE vampire, have an army of zombies, and a large population that worships blood and death and do NOTHING with it. Yeah, its funny for a few seconds to have the country under a undead necrocracy be good (it's funny in Aerenal) but its a bit of a waste to not put it to use. Players don't want to fight CG heroes. QUOTE]
Von Ether 03-11-05, 11:46 AM	*Keith has suggested that the Order of the Emerald Claw would be a good Nazi organization. If you have to use a Nazi-ish regieme, then think of them as the Nazi's after they lost WWII. Kicked out of their home country, and denounced by just about everyone. I think Keith said somewhere that Karrnath is similar to the Romans, except without an emperor, you have a vampire king. (Which some of the populace would consider god-like...) Personally, I like to use the Valenar as Nazis. A "Master" race of elves skirmishing with the "lesser" races of Human, goblinoids, and halflings. They are very elitist, and dislike half-elves because they're part human. (Yes, I'm a Karrnath fanboy and am sick of "goody goody elves." ;) ) Yes! Yes! Make the Claw the Nazis! Leave the poor Lord of Blades alone so he can become the Dr. Doom Baker intended. ;)
Altaris 03-11-05, 12:16 PM	Largely, I believe Eberron works for me because the campaign is largely vaguely defined and thus plenty of room for expansion on theme and ideas IMHO. I pretty much do the same thing. My campaign is set in Breland, and I do use alot of British/American influence in my descriptions. I sort of treat Sharn like a neo-New York. Maybe a fantastical Tokyo is a better example. Rather than classify it all, I just highlight the themes found in the ECS & the S:CoT books. Noir, baby, noir!
Charles Phipps 03-11-05, 12:47 PM	To me, that's one of the good things about this setting... PCs may _have_ to fight CG heroes someday. They might have to face some moral quandries, which is much more interesting than just contantly smiting evil. As a change yes. It's enjoyable to be hunted by the paladins for whatever reason or the otherwise well intentioned folk, but a good campaign cannot be sustained on battling good in my opinion. At least, for the games I want to run. Maybe Dragonlance spoiled me but I prefer to think my PCs would rather risk it and try to take down the evils of the world than try and tolerate an undead creating tyranny. Then again, they're sort of still having trouble with the idea of undead=not necessarily evil. To me, I think it suits the politics though that the Last Great War lead to a horrific tyranny being instituted that will last forever that cannot be overthrown lest the entire region plunge once more into eternal war.
Zalaz Mavi 03-11-05, 01:41 PM	I've always been a bigger fan of Sinbad than Long John Silver, so I've given the Lhazaar more of a Persian/Portuguese/Phoenician flavor. Personally, I think those cultures play more to the nautical traditions of the Lhazaar better than the whole "15 men on a dead man's chest" bit...
Charles Phipps 03-11-05, 03:28 PM	Cool. How do you guys do Sarlona and the Dragon countries? I use Council of Wyrms for the later. I can't help but think Sarlona is better used as a exotic kingdom rather than a competing superpower, what about you? What's the benefits of both vs. the other? I also have the Sovereign Host as a state imposed "Genericness" over thousands of once inidvidual gods.
polt 03-11-05, 06:59 PM	I won't for anything in the world give the nations of Eberron a realworld twin, it's not in the spirit of the setting, and i don't see a reason why to do it.
Charles Phipps 03-11-05, 07:56 PM	I won't for anything in the world give the nations of Eberron a realworld twin, it's not in the spirit of the setting, and i don't see a reason why to do it. I don't see how you're game can have any flavor to it at all then. Istar in Dragonlance is Ancient Rome combined with the theocracy of the Vatican. Joseph Campbell is an individual who long believed that the art of storytelling was based fundamentally on a set group of archetypes that are necessary to put to use. Now you can accuse me of being derivitive when I give Karrnath a German flavor but I believe Ravenloft to this day (especially with the Gazeteers) is the most developed of all campaign settings because it knew when to incorporate real world elements. We only have the Corebook and Sharn presently but thanks to my choices we know What do Karrnath's drink? Beer What do they eat? Sausages and Cabbage We import a clothing style and an expectation of behavior to some extent that actually acutely seperates the land from the other nations of Khovaire. Honestly, I'm not going to directly incorporate wholesale Germany to Karnnath but I certainly won't deny that the world will incorporate plenty of elements of very real places. Giving Thrane a Spanish Flavor won't make it Spain but it does imply certain aspects being incorporated. Yes, Flamekeep is more likely to be the Papal States and adding elements like Vienitian city states along through it will also further add to the distinctiveness of it. However, the resulting composite whole while "uniquely Thranian" is going to be made up of divergent elements from history and that's the BEST way fantasy can be done in my opinion. No DM has the ability to create whole cloth civilizations. The Gondorians of Tolkien are fundamentally Norsemen mixed with Germanic myths, horseridding, and some other tweaks.
Darth Syntax 03-11-05, 08:33 PM	While i agree that the nations of Eberron dont really have RL equivilents, it non-the-less helps me to think of some of them as vaguly like some nation or group of them. To this end. . . Karrnath: A mix of The Austro-Hungarian and Russian Empires of the 17 and 19th century with a generally eastern european flare for things. I invision Kiaus as a sort of Peter the Great figure, the iron-fisted tyrant who loves his country and his people. A very dark and brooding country with strange folk-lore with a culture of story telling because it too damn cold to do anything else in the long cold winters. The Karrnathi speak with a slavic-brittish accent of some kind and tend to write long complicated novels about depressing things. Most of my thoughts have been about Karrnath and Karrlakton really as that is where my character is from. Aundair: France under Louis XIV. The Dichotomy between the rural areas and the cities is profound and with the emphasis on magic and education its not too far off from the French liking of pure reason in the early enlightenment. Breland: England. With the presence of a monarchy as well as a council that acts very much like parliment breland is most definatly england, if england were moved to south India. Sharn has no real equivilent and is 1 part victorian london, 2 parts the Chicago of The Sting 1 part New York, and 5 parts general tower city. Thrane: Spain in the 16th-18th century if the Catholic church had converted to Zoroastrianism and then took over. We have the church infrastructure and the crazy evil cardinal (although he does have some similarities to Armand Jean du Plessis de Richelieu, i just like that name by the way) along with people who are honestly trying to do good int he world, the Keeper of the Flame for example. I havent had much in the way of Ideas for Thrane yet. Cyre: Breland's more sucsessful older brother with a heavy dose of Japanese technical inovation. For reasons beyond understanding the Cyrans spoke with a greek accent in my head. Zilargo: The Italian Renaissance gets shorter and has bigger noses. Also it moves to Bengal. Also what with all the back stabbing and plotting a culture in which families of gomes would band together and act like the Medici's. Valenar: The elves there have a Persian-Scythian-Rajput feel to them and i dont see them as feeling themselves to be racialy superior to humans so much as personally superirior to everyone else. I dont think that the elves would oppress the human farmers so much as simply not care about them. Shadow marches: the bayou meets south-east asia, complete with rice farming-blues singing orcs, spicy food, lots of water, and lots of 'gators.n (that will teach me to eat thai food and listen to house of the rising sun at the same time) Lhazaar: Really fancy viking-slavs with a rich mercantile history, closely related to the Karrnathi although much less regimented in demenor, they deal with the harsh weather by raiding, trading and drinking, not writing big depressing novels. Talenta plains: Mongolia, but shorter and with dinosaurs. Im not really sure about Mror,Q'barra, the Demon wastes, The eldeen reaches, Droaam, or Darguun yet.
Ohtar Turinson 03-11-05, 09:04 PM	I don't see how you're game can have any flavor to it at all then. Istar in Dragonlance is Ancient Rome combined with the theocracy of the Vatican. I always thought of Istar as being more like one of the massive middle eastern theocracies pre-Rise of Rome. The cultures that the Romans mocked and vilified in their stories as decadent and absurd. The Gondorians of Tolkien are fundamentally Norsemen mixed with Germanic myths, horseridding, and some other tweaks. The men of Rohan are what you mean I think- Gondor has no clear direct connections to any real world society. Just Western civilization as a whole. I disagree with the idea that you need to copy a specific culture to create a feel though. Its certainly easier, but if I opt not to it doesn't kill flavor, it just means I have to work at it more. If you have the time and inclination, you could invent a culture from scratch; certainly people have done it before. That said, I think that Eberron certainly steals elements from the real world; I'd say that Karrnath is sort of Eastern Europe, pre WWI. But the existance of cults like the Blood of Vol and the massive presence of Undead would certainly have a more subdued feel than Germany; Peter the Great is a better analogy for Kaius than Hitler. I think that you've stuck far too much with "LE=Nazi". After all, the corrupt merchant falls in the same LE name, and they would condemn mass murder just as strongly (after all, it might hurt sales not to) And Darth Syntax: I like that description of Sharn. I like it a lot. I think I may have to use that if the need arises.
Charles Phipps 03-14-05, 08:15 PM	I always thought of Istar as being more like one of the massive middle eastern theocracies pre-Rise of Rome. The cultures that the Romans mocked and vilified in their stories as decadent and absurd. I couldn't honestly see any of that influence. I would have thought Istar would be totally Roman given its overwhelming power and the deliberate stylistic choices of dress amongst corruption. The men of Rohan are what you mean I think- Gondor has no clear direct connections to any real world society. Just Western civilization as a whole. True. That said, I think that Eberron certainly steals elements from the real world; I'd say that Karrnath is sort of Eastern Europe, pre WWI. But the existance of cults like the Blood of Vol and the massive presence of Undead would certainly have a more subdued feel than Germany; Peter the Great is a better analogy for Kaius than Hitler. What I've observed about Eberron is the fact that you can largely play with it a great deal and have a good deal of fun with it in what you can choose to emphasize or not. There's nothing saying that Karrnath is German of Transylvanian and largely its my decision to make that touch. If I wanted to, I could tone down Karrnath's villainy and his LE nature is merely the lengths he'll go to in order to prevent another war. Indeed, in Eberron...LE for the state could be better than a LG ruler given certain circumstances. Like Greyhawk though, I believe Eberron was deliberately made (at the start at least) so that you can choose to dial up elements and adjust the setting to your needs to a large extent. I certainly don't think Kaius the Third benefits for every setting by being a Hitler analogue and I honestly couldn't say though that there's any indication he is one yet...or that he isn't. It's the "homebrewed" elements that I'm interested in for this thread because I'd like to see how people are tweaking their campaigns for their needs. In my campaign, the Blood Worship of the people strikes me as a good "pagan" feel but I want to make him more like "Vlad the Impaler" and for my campaign needs...Kaius needs to be possibly the most evil man that has ever lived. I'm certainly not stopping at Hitler to steal from, I'm stealing from Vlad Dracov, Azalin (a Secret Police I'm making of monsters he's recruited), the Undead, and even giving him an Artifecer/Necromancer based on Herbert West to work on creating an even larger army of zombies. It's ironically, all part of a horribly evil prank on my players. Basically, Kaius despite being a man that the Keeper itself might be disgusted to take the soul of.....is a man whose keeping his armies from rampaging. When the PCs after several adventures of eliminating his secret police and helping the "noble resistance" of the Emerald Claw take over castles and form a popular uprising, well....the next ruler will not be so restrained in his plans to take over Khovaire. I think that you've stuck far too much with "LE=Nazi". Actually, in addition to the Alignment Chart I also keep a ranking. Basically 1-100 just HOW evil a person is. Lawful Evil can be just people who are fundamentally selfish but might be turned from the Dark Side with a good talking to. In Kaius case, I want him to be a bout a 1000. Others may want him to be about a 3 and only circumstances preventing him from being LN like other rulers. I've developed the Dragon continent a bit personally as well. I've got them racially divided into Kingdoms and am basing them on several different Draconic like cultures. The Chromatic Dragons are very Arabian in feel and the Metallics more Japanese.
goldengod 03-14-05, 11:17 PM	I find this thread very interesting because I *just* finished reading a book called The Night of the Long Knives, about how Hitler consolidated his power base in the early years of the Nazi Party. While I agree with previous comments that there aren't any exact parallels, I think that there are a lot of similarities between post-Last War Karrnath and post-WWI Germany. There are also similarities between the Emerald Claw and the early Nazi Party. For a while, the Nazi Party was outlawed and was essentially just a nationalistic terrorist group with political aspirations. It wasn't until later that they gained offical recognition once more. And they didn't really manage to seize power until they set the German parliament building on fire and framed the Communists. Consider: A militaristic country struggles under economic hardships after a devastating war. The country's leader struggles to keep the peace with his neighbors while maintaining power at home. Meanwhile, an outlawed nationalist group gains popular support by appealing to a frustrated populace. A charismatic leader gives fiery speeches railing against foreigners and religious minorities while his minions commit acts of terrorism to bolster the cause. As things currently stand, Karrnath doesn't work very well as Nazi Germany, but as pre-Nazi Germany, it works almost perfectly. Just replace Germany with Karrnath, the Nazis with the Emerald Claw, and the Jews with followers of the Silver Flame (and maybe some of the Sovereign Host, too), and give the Emerald Claw a charismatic leader (vampire bard, anyone?), and you're good to go. Unfortunately, for all his vampireness, Kaius doesn't make a very good Hitler. Kaius is very much about maintaining the status quo, while Hitler was all about tearing down order (so he could establish his own). I could very easily see a campaign set in Karrnath with the PCs as covert agents of the crown, working to subvert the Emerald Claw before they can take over the government. It makes for a great plot twist when they learn that the guy they've been working for all along is actually a vampire. Darth Syntax: I like your ideas. To add to the list, Q'barra reminds me of a cross between colonial India and South America.
Charles Phipps 03-16-05, 01:23 PM	Personally, I also make a certain Khovaire nation that believes in democracy a bit of satire on the principles of idealism. The place is horrifically inefficent as they're always trying experimental attempts to reach a more equal and free society. Utopianism, Revolutionarism, Proto communism, and the like make the place actually a powder keg on its own.
_Inu_Yasha_ 03-16-05, 03:19 PM	One thing to remember here, whether they are fanatical members of the Church of the Silver Flame, Vampire Rulers, Martial Elves or Alien Mindsets in Stolen Bodies, they are still people they can be petty, beautiful, cruel, evil, saintly no matter what they are on the outside. From what I can see from what I've read just because you work for the bad guys, doesn't mean you have to be a bad person. Just because you are a loyal servant of Good doesn't mean you are not selfish or cruel. The trick is to make these ppl the exceptions, for example: Some of the high-ups in Karrnath are evil twisted parodies of their former selves, whilst others are ashamed about what has happened but are too proud to show weakness whilst others could be working to help whoever they can from within the system. Lets remember it's about people and they can be a mixed varied and confusing bunch!
depolarization 03-17-05, 12:53 PM	Just a note on Karrnath since I'm basing my campaign out of there and intrigues with the Cult of the Dragon Below, Blood of Vol, the royal family, the Tanar clan and the emerald claw (some guest appearances by the citadel & the twelve). Karrnath in my interpretation above all is a totalitarian military dictatorship. You don't need a nazi model, look (and study!) at fascist Spain. People like authoritarian rule, if they are of the citizen class that the nationalistic regime supports. In fact, one of my players is Kaius enthralled jingoist! Nazi's offered people pride and discipline in a time of poverty and despair. They were a ray of hope for the German people, depressed after the Versailles treaty. It doesn't make the attrocities any less horrific, but people should udnerstand that facism is a seductive and oft used tactic to cow people into nationalistic (or you can read it as patriotic...which ever helps you sleep at night) fervor. It energized them into an industrialized powerhouse of focussed effort -all new art, literature, industry and commerce was controlled to propagandize their effort and rally the people (while dissenters were oppressed). Of course I will use this in Eberron! Karrnath suffered heavy losses in the last war, and thus started their program of undead soldier creation to bolster thier diminished ranks. Many nationalistic citizens were proud to have their sons honorably returned to the battle field as graceful skeletons and zombies (look at those stats!...nutz for regulars!) to once again fight the pretenders to the throne (Die Dritte Reich! read as the new Galifar Empire...). I play up the fact that every citizen, even farmers of age, has a sword in their home, whether woman or man and they all have pride in their country. They have a tolerance of other races though, as long as they abide by the laws, and they could never hold any political office or even own land unless the King himself has authorized it. The royal swords serve as a national guard and police. Much like the in the facist states, there was work for "everyone" and you were forced to work in many cases (everyone must contribute to society), and there were so many police there was one on every street corner. Thus oppressive societies have less violent crime and theft! This is reflected in a lack of major, organized thieves guilds and most roguish endeavors have aires of legitimacy, serving as freelance and licensed "troubleshooters." This doesn't mean that underworlds cannot exist, they often just have a lot more power than mere thugs and are very underground. And the mere thugs you are getting in cities are probably nationalistic "Young Kaius" green-shirts (I chose black/green as Karrnath's national standard colors) ganging up and roughing up foreigners at a work camp or the uppity magewright that talks too much. Secret organizations either have to be super secret, or tied to the government with protection. Thus you have the Blood of Vol still in existance. Overtly they are a folk-religion with some codices, priests and temples in the cities. But for those of use that read ECS chapter 6, we know that Vol has some intimate ties with Kaius the I,II,III... Many plots are probably going to be political maneuvers and spy vs. spy style intrigues. But as stated above, it would really short-change the Eberron setting to look for direct analogues, let systems of government influence you , give you an anchor for your imaginzaiton to soar without getting carried away. But the intrigues, organization and players in your governments should remain wholey unique. Sure it's great to borrow bits of peter and adolf and franco, but Kaius, is still KAIUS (sounds roman anyway)! I have a plot brewing right now where a citadel agent is ratting out an emerald claw mole that will poison the governor of Veddykar. I have it that this governor is of the ir'Tanar family (married into Wynarn and petitioned governorship and won out of fear of civil strife) and has his own intrigues. One is to destroy an eldritch machine that's creating the undead (he was against the use of undead and has a following under him and the family name) and blame it on Thrane operatives to incite more operations against Thrane and ingnite the war again (much Kaius' chagrin). Of course in the meanwhile, they are also uncovering a larger and larger cult of the dragon below movement where the lords of madness are capturing dragonmarked children to use them as communication devices in horrific eldritch machines to communicate across the vast planes-verse to Xoriat itself...whee!
greatfrito 03-17-05, 01:36 PM	Players don't want to fight CG heroes. As other have pointed out, some players do. Our party for Eberron is much more "lawful" than any other alignment aspect (and we're all over the place on Good and Evil), and fighting CG heroes is very much something we'd do. Comes down to the players' views: Is a stable world better than a morally "perfect" world? If yes, then you can fight CG heroes as the day is long.
Charles Phipps 03-17-05, 01:59 PM	As other have pointed out, some players do. Our party for Eberron is much more "lawful" than any other alignment aspect (and we're all over the place on Good and Evil), and fighting CG heroes is very much something we'd do. Comes down to the players' views: Is a stable world better than a morally "perfect" world? If yes, then you can fight CG heroes as the day is long. Well mine don't. Largely, I don't like games that essentially try to take away the idea of players as heroes. In my mind, epic fantasy shouldn't be about playing mercenaries or villains....though certainly some games like Vampire: The Masquerade require you to. Games like it should be about restoring order and/or freedom to lands and bringing down villains who should have a justifiable over the top element to them. Certainly, "realistic" villains have a place but Pulp almost depends on a world painted less in shades of grey than staker contrasts. Clearly, you have your preference but I've always established that while I'm willing to accomdate falls from grace and more in my games. I have no desire to extensively play Dungeons and Dragons with villains or characters motivated only by gold. I find the stories more or less bankrupt storytelling wise for me. I just can't get into them the same way I can get into other stories. Others, again, are clearly different but I can only operate from my own experience. So anyone have an idea on how to do Sarlona?
scrollreader 03-17-05, 03:16 PM	But Eberron is as much Noir as Pulp. Obviously you can flavoir to taste as a DM. As for Sarlona ... Equilibrium. 1984. The Matrix. Psychoactive Skins don't show your face. Anonymous PsyWars as enforcers, in Armor with closed helmets. Psions in Silvered, Reflective PsychoActive Skins (of Conceal Thoughts). Authority is anonymous and omnipresent. Maybe that Inspector in the silver skin was your mom ... or your neighbor. Or maybe they're not human at all. Who can say?
Jagermeister 03-17-05, 05:05 PM	I won't for anything in the world give the nations of Eberron a realworld twin, it's not in the spirit of the setting, and i don't see a reason why to do it. I don't see how you're game can have any flavor to it at all then. Eberron has a lot of inherent flavor that doesn't necessarily have to contain any real world connections to work. I understand the "mythological paradigms/Joseph Campbell" reference, and to an extent I agree. The extent being that some comparisons to the real world are unavoidable, but changing Eberron to mimic the real world on deep levels is not necessary to give the setting flavor. You can still do it, and I don't disagree with it. I do however disagree that you must do it to give the setting flavor.
Eriedm 03-17-05, 05:24 PM	my two cents: I see the Valenar as being japanese, and the order of the emerald claw seems rather more nazi-ish, but then again Thrane could be nazi like as well. Too much lawfull good can be a good thing
Chiba_Monkey 03-19-05, 12:28 AM	Charles, a couple of things...I think Darth Syntax has a pretty good estimation of RL equivalents, and the best interpretation of the Valenar. Remember, they allow non-elf farmers and such in their territory, they just collect tribute, but ALSO grant protection. They believe that they are individually superior, but that doesn't mean others have to be wiped out. I understand what you're doing with Karrnath and why. I agree with a lot of people here that you're misinterpreting what the ECS says about Karrnath. In fact, I think you're flat wrong. BUT you stated at the beginning of this post that it's your homebrew. Therefore, I totally support your decision to do whatever the hell you want. And from a man with a BA in History...I think you might do well to associate Sarlona with the USSR, only slightly more successful. Sort of like what the USSR wanted to be. Hellcow has stated that the Quori are remarkably unified in thought and purpose. There was a thread a while back that asked about Eberron-RL comparions, I believe it was titled "Eberron American answer to FR?" or something. Hope that helps. As for players not wanting to fight CG heroes...You NEED to re-read the intro to the ECS. Especially the section on alignment. One of the great things about Eberron is the way alignments work. Remember, alignments are the EXTREME adjudication of a person's behavior patterns. Kaius is LE because of the methods he is willing to use without remorse, it does not mean that he has evil designs or plans world domination. He was adamantly for peace during the Last War and was instrumental in ending it. He is not necessarily cruel or malicious at all, certainly not for the sake of cruelty itself. To the Karrns, he is a benevolent and just ruler, even to the select few who know his true nature. It's not about fighting heroes, man. What's so great is the levels of complexity. What people are trying to say is not "fight CG heroes" but "fight CG villains" Just because someone had a good alignment doesn't mean that they're on your side. How many paladins fought each other and killed each other during the Last War and suffered no loss of powers? I'd guess a LOT. Many DMs realize that Evil is not a monolithic force, and evil people and creatures are just as likely to fight each other as the forces of good. What you need to realize is that (especially in Eberron) Good is also not a monolithic force that opposes all eveil no matter where it stands. Politics and religion stand out as even stronger factors. Your average Karrnathi peasant, would stand by, and die for his LE king, than submit to the CG rulership of some heathen from Aundair, get my point? Same goes for the people making Karrnathi Undead. The people af Karrnath believe that their dead ancestors and relatives continue to fight for them, and for those who face this transformation after death, it is an honor. Even though their souls pass to Dolurrh, they continue to protect those they love and even protect their fellow warriors because they, at that point, will have less to lose. Overall, it results in a much lower death toll for the living soldiers of Karrnath. This is in the mind of both soldiers and the necromancers, does this sound evil to you? (although yes, there could be a few morbid and obsessed ones, see the ECS for an example) I hope the beginning of my post helped your campaign and that the rest opened your eyes to the arguments of the others who posted, as well as hopefully opening you up to possibly more intrigue in your game. It's much more realistic that evil people are not the only ones who make plans that good people might not want to follow. Even if your campaign focuses heavily on the Karrns as your main villains, don't forget the machinations of other countries. It may be inevitable for you to deal with "good" villains for the PCs. If your PCs eventually destroy Kauis and eliminate the "Nazi" regime, the country will be greatly weakened and vulnerable. Other countries, even those led by good rulers will jump to fill the power vacuum. Your PCs might have to foil the plans of one to aid the plans of another. This may mean fighting, maybe even killing people who aren't necessairly evil, if the opposing forces are willing to fight, kill, and die for what they believe in/who they serve, then your PCs' hands might be forced.
Charles Phipps 03-19-05, 12:44 AM	*Sigh* I understand and appreciate your long drawn out answer. I'm aware that in Eberron, what I've done for years in effect. LG can be intolerant and short sighted, causing misery instead of joy with their actions. CG like the Queen of "Democracy" can ruin lives by tearing down existing social orders. LE can also be effective rulers, moreso than LG, in some cases because of their skill. I've had plenty of games where Count Dracula has been an ally of the players. Why? Because Count Dracula though LE is an individual that the players know is the only individual who can possible maintain a independent Wallachia. The choice to make Kaius a horrific monster is actually railroading the PCs to some extent. The idea is that Kaius, for all the abominations that he heaps on his subjects is the only thing that's keeping the Emerald Claw and the Quorli that are aiding them in our campaign from overthrowing the existing government and establishing their own military machine that will immediately begin for another Great War (The Quorli have been aiding the Great War to carry on for most of the century in order to weaken Khovaire for eventual takeover and they are VERY patient). Once the PCs successfully assassinate Kaius, whose evil is actually in my games NOT the result of the Man's character (Kaius was a great hero for most of his life in my games) but the result of a Magic Sword that was given to him by the Quorli and has been slowly sliding his character to the extremes of evil, the country of Karrnath will fall under the command of the Emerald Claw. By setting up Kaius as a horrific dictator, I've used the Emerald Claw as a "heroic resistance" that has been "unfairly maligned" as terrorists. The PCs are all foreigners, so this sort of portrayal is perfectly in line with their perceptions. The Emerald Claw will crack down on the horrific oppression and instead work to instill a great "pride" in rebuilding the nation and hyper industrializing it whereas Kaius has been keeping the country in the Middle Ages largely as a means to make it seem nonthreatening (he REALLY wanted to avoid a last war and built many things solely to make sure they weren't ane asy conquest either) The Populous is happy to and will buy perfectly into the Emerald Claw's propaganda. The choice of Kaius as "Kingfurher" is a bit of bait and switch since the Emerald Claw is the real Nazis out for conquest and the Secret Police of Kaius will not be dismantled but merely made more public as its members now answer to the Emerald Claw. With Vlad the Impaler gone, their new dictator will be ready to wage industralized and mechanized war on the rest of the world and won't be so genocidal as Kaius (who wanted to eliminate nonhumans to largely weaken their use as cannon fodder) but instead use them for soldiers and slaves. In effect, its all a set up for the PCs to go "what have we done?" The reason I don't like using CG villains is because largely it's a theme in my games that large scale wars are horrifically wasteful and the Great Wars was a complete enemy of everything that any sane being should have stood for. The PCs in my game fight against abberrations and creatures of PURE evil (or alienness depending on whether you feel like debating CoC ethics or not) because they know that being faced against those who aren't evil is the consequence of war and idealogies that grew too fanatical. Its my entire campaign theme. I have no desire to run a game that is shades of gray under this tone and the Second War is being set up in shades of Black/White because the evil is just that dark and all the gray is VERY bright in contrast.
Chiba_Monkey 03-19-05, 01:14 AM	I see...well done, well done. I had a campaign on three years (Real life time). Sometime during the second year they found evidence that EVERYTHING they had accomplished had been a diversionary tactic on the part of the REAL enemy, and by defeating their enemies, the real villains had time to move their full operation to a more secure location. So I like the whole "what have we done?" thing for PCs. I always enjoy making them realize the consequences of their actions. Later in the game, they had to attempt to depose a LN dwarf king, who was a hero to his people, because he was trading with the drow (There has been a war with the drow running 18 years and counting by this point. The dwarves had been remaining staunchly neutral, at least officially). They went and found his son, a paladin of Moradin, who was in self-imposed exile b/c he couldn't reconcile what his father had done with his father's authority to do it as king and a great hero (king was over 600 years old, but still a great fighter. Legends about him were already ancient and epic by human standards). They NEEDED to get rid of him (he wouldn't break off the drow trade agreement) and put a ruler in place who supported their goals, but at the same time, he had done nothing illegal or oppressive to his people. They started a revolution in the capital, turning many who were already not in favor of seeing drow in their city violent against the drow. King's soldiers had to protect the drow ambassadors, and the PCs used this to rally people against the king. One PC, a gnome with strong dwarven ties, was horrified by what they had done. He tried to end the battle nonlethaly, but a surface drow assasin had been hired by a 3rd party to kill the king and frame the drow (this was the backup plan in case the PCs failed), and he was present when they confronted the king, when the gnome paralyzed the king to end the battle peacefully, the assasin took advantage of the king's helplessness and butchered him. More to the point of YOUR campaign, I also just remembered something else I wanted to post. Have you seen the movie that's supposed to be the "real" story of Dracula? (can't remember what it's called) There's no major actors in it, and it's pretty graphic, but it's a great depiction of Vlad Tepes, Prince of Wallachia (although they say Romania, you gotta account for the fact that most people have no idea where Wallachia is). In the movie, he fights for justice and for the people of Romania, although he is clearly a sociopath (he says things like "everything I do is just") He focuses a lot on what is "just" as opposed to what is "right", definition of LE, right? There is a scene when his wife runs into town and sees, for the first time, people impaled in the square. The horror of what her husband is capable of hits her like a rock. A nearby commoner tells her what a hero their prince is, and that whie horrible, the fate of those men is nothing less than they deserved. At one point she asks "Have you never heard of Vlad the Impaler?", but her tone is not one of horror. The end of the movie mentions that, to the people of Romania, Vlad was a hero and a patriot, and they remember him fondly. If you have seen this movie, then it sounds like it may have influenced your idea. If not, it may give you a lot of ideas of how to portray Kaius in person when the PCs meet him. It's a great example of a LE person, who does not act in personal greed or self-interest, has his people in mind at all times, and firmly believes he is just while at the same time is terribly evil. The VERY end of the movie taps into the vampire myth. But if you accept that much of it is overdramatized, it's otherwise a very realistic movie. It might help be a bridge to the "core" portrayal of Kaius that so many on this thread have ewxpounded and your view. (Yes, he's not your typical LE and is a hero to many, even those close to him, yes he's just and acts for his people, but he's a freaking sociopath!) ;) Hope I helped.
Charles Phipps 03-19-05, 01:40 AM	Some of my decisions are basically that King Kaius was an adventurer before the crownship and while never actually a "great upstanding citizen" Kaius was one of the few monarchs who actually understood what it was like to do battle and what men were called to sacrifice in the name of 'victory.' It hardened him and made him nasty and ruthless but again, my making him Evil of 1000 or more is to get the players to hate the man. And there's considerable irony in using 'Vlad the Impaler' as the model for King Kaius. And yes I've seen Prince of Darkness. In any case, how I handle The Blood of Vol is actually through Voodoo largely as an influence. The unvoodoo elements are Vol is the Queen of Air and Darkness that is the daughter of the Keeper and offers human beings the guarantee that they will never die so long as they worship her and observe the rituals. Like many, they don't often see the REAL undead servants of her but make up stories of ghosts chilling in her Ice Palace that's a paradise of the dead. The Undead are only gross and disgusting in their religion because they are in this world and often for very good purposes, on missions for Vol. Vol is depicted alteratively as a dessicated lich and also a seductively beautiful woman. The more Vodooey are... Her religion isn't exactly organized but more priests are chosen from those who are willing to learn the rituals passed down by oral tradition and how to placate the undead that menace on occasion the areas (often because their sinful) and cure with blood rituals the ailments of a village from farming failure to inferlity. It is a very visceral religion with a lot of sacrifices and use of totemic imagery but there's countless spirits that are incorporated into it as well. Spirits that Vol has no authority over or are related to that her religion is called to nevertheless deal with as well. It's just that the "Blood Rituals" are infamous outside of the land and the 'worship of undead' I doubt they'd even consider themselves Blood Worshippers or worshippers of Vol per say naturall save for her central figurehood in death rituals. in truth, in my games, its just the collected superstitions of a hundred different faiths merged together without the leadership of a Thrane or Sovereign Host clergy behind it and that was strongly inluenced by Vol's legitimate cultists who are often oddly drawn from it.
Darth Syntax 03-19-05, 02:01 AM	Forgive this slight detour back to RL inspirations for the nations and other locals of Eberron. Reidra: I see this empire as a seeming paradise, no political infighting (all the leaders agree) no wars to speak of and a populous who gladly submits to the will of their Inspiried masters. With that being said, underneath this utopian venir lies a strange and absolutist state. Having studied the Ottoman Empire i think that the turkish method of slavery, where slaves form a kind of elite totaly loyal and beholden to the Sultan (or in this case the inspired), would fit quite well. Also i can see that there would be a very complex breeding program to produce empty vessels overseen by lesser inspiried and empty vessels which would bear some superficial resemblance to the bene geserit of Dune. I also see some elements from Mughal India as being appropriate, especially the vast wealth. I agree that some elements of classic distopian litterature should be incorperated as well, for example i can see dreamlilly being used like soma in Brave New World along with 1984 style propaganda. However i do think that the people of Reidra are actually happy, for you see it serves the Quori better to have happy people because a happy mind is likely to be a creative mind and thus produce dreams that are a delicacy. Adar: well the obvious inspiration (boy it feels wrong to use that word in this context) would be Tibet but frankly thats almost too easy. So lets use some tibet but lets also include Meteora (a picture of Meteora (http://www.peakbagging.com/Greece/Meteora.jpg) ) and the general idea of the isolated fortress monastaries as well as the island monastaries of Iona and the other Irish sea places. Adar is a place of mystical and psionic learning and as such should be full of both guru-like teachers and houses of wisdom of all kinds. I so think they drink tea. and not like the brittish drink tea, but really DRINKING TEA. The Eldeen Reaches: Given the fact the the Reaches have a sepratist mentality i think a combination of Ireland and Quebec would be idea with a healthy smattering of the Appalachians. They see themselves as distinct and i believe they always have which fits nicely with the whole, Quebecois/Irish thing, not to mention the connection to the fey, the huge forests and the whole druid thing. (this is what i get for listening to Irish easter rebellion songs for 6 days) Q'barra: Q'barra reminds me of a cross between colonial India and South America. i agree but i would add some elements of the "old west" which fits with the frontieer mentality and all. Now then, on to other items of business From Mr. Charles Phipps Largely, I don't like games that essentially try to take away the idea of players as heroes. I am going to have to disagree with your position here. I personally like the Noir feel in which the protagonist is just as likely to become a villian as a hero. Even in more "normal" D&D i usualy play neutral or evil characters (not the "i eat babies for breakfast" sort of evil but rather the devious and underhanded and amoral kind, for more insidious really). I am very fond of shades of grey and of "villians" aiding the "heroes". Anyway, thats just my personal view. and Chiba_Monkey, thanks for the compliment We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread. (P.S. please excuse my spelling and all, its fianls week here and my brain has been beer battered and deep fired)
Charles Phipps 03-19-05, 02:17 AM	Nice thoughts Darth, I like all of them. Especially the Sarlona ones. I am going to have to disagree with your position here. Its purely a matter of taste. Largely, I had a bad experience with players who played so many noir games that I grew gut sick of them and now absolutely refuse to run them. It's a standard rule that those who are verging on villains or out for themselves aren't people who are to be admired but part of the problem. I'm sure its different in many games but that's not anything that will be coming into my games anytime soon. Maybe I'll eventually forget the nightmare of the previous games but that's a while for it.
Darth Syntax 03-19-05, 02:51 AM	I agree that it is a matter of taste whether you go the Noir route or not, and i just like that sort of thing. To each their own by all means.
Charles Phipps 03-19-05, 02:26 PM	I agree that it is a matter of taste whether you go the Noir route or not, and i just like that sort of thing. To each their own by all means. I did run a Usual Suspects as a game, I think what Eberron definitely needs is a "Kingpin" like figure honestly.
Charles Phipps 03-21-05, 03:02 PM	i should note that I completely changed the nature of warforged in my game and the Lord of Blades... I use a very "Doctor Doom" like Lord of Blades for the few times the party stumbles upon one of his schemes. Usually some sort of screen based system or "you just missed him" type character. Very intimidating fellow. I should probably mention that the above in my campaign is actually NOT the 'Real' Lord of Blades. The Real Lord of Blades operates behind a screen of a dozen of blade armored warforged who have been practicing their mechanical laugh. I should also note that the Lord of Blades is so undefined its neat to put in twists.... In my campaign where "Humano-forged" (basically based on the Red Steel Tinker creations) exist, the Lord of Blades is a pretty 15 year old looking girl who bears something of a resemblance to the Big O's Dorothy. She wanders around with the party because its not safe to be in one place too long and communicates through her broach to her lieutenants while it seems she's "kinda sleeping." This helps her meet with individual warforged to share her views as a "prostetilyzer" and because the party is constantly facing Quori and other creatures, she knows it aids her cause to help destroy them even if she herself refuses to be put in any danger.