Post/Author/DateTime	Post
deClench 10-23-05, 08:35 PM	For being the "Month of Horror," I've seen precious little talk of anything horrific on the boards. Sure there were a couple comments on the HoH, but not much else that I saw. Though I definately WILL purchase the HoH, I have not yet and so do not know what it covers, but this thread isn't intended to focus on that book. Do you try to use horror in your Eberron campaign? How? The obvious first vehicle for horror in D&D is the monsters you throw at your party: The quori are great for this. I've already used a dream sequence adventure throwing the party against some of the horribly more-powerful-than-the-party-at-the-time new Quori from Hellcow's article in Dragon. The only downside to this is that neither elves or warforged are susceptible to dream effects. With zero elves and only a single warforged in the party, I simply fiated that the warforged could dream that time. Not sure what I'll do in the future -- maybe I'l just have to kill off the warforged first. >:) Since the Lords of Dust article, if not before, they have certainly become more of a force for horror in the game. Though I'm sure that most groups will never witness the release of a raja, they could certainly be threatened with it and the waiting and not knowing may prove more horrific. Aberrations are likely the epitome of horror, so the Cults of the Dragon Below are obvious choices. Probably more important than choice of monster, though, is tone: This has been harder for me to get working. I'm sure the HoH has ideas for this. I think one key is to work on your flavor text. I have a bad habit of forgeting this step, but I think it would better get my points across to my players. I guess the other trick is to not go over the top. You need to choose your words to evoke feeling while keeping your group's desires in mind (things from the BoVD are not for everyone). You should not need to go to that level though to put a little scare in your players. How do you get a sense of tension, inappropriateness, squeamishness, or whatever other feeling your trying for, across to your players? Is that made any easier in Eberron? Another effective but dangerous tool is party manipulation: I try to use this one frequently, but it can easily blow up in your face and you also run the risk of railroading your PCs. This would include things like splitting up the party or posessing one of the party or using strange environments. Do you use horror in your campaign as a DM? Any advice? Do you run a PC in a horror game? What stands out for you? Do you have a moment in a game that stands out for you that was horrific in nature? How is the use of horror helped or hindered in Eberron? Let's put the... Oc!!! back in October. :confused: Cheers. :coolcthul
jknevitt 10-23-05, 09:56 PM	An excellent tool is inference. For example, compare "The inn room has sprays of blood on the walls. Perhaps a fight took place here. There's no injured or dead here, though." with "There are sprays of blood across the inn room's walls. Everything else seems quite normal." The first directly references a combat -- something that PCs are used to and are fairly blaise about. The second implies something happened, but the juxtaposition of a normal inn room with obvious signs of peril are jarring. Inference! Never explain what could have happened. Infer a sense of peril or danger. The above second example also provides a good example of juxtaposition -- comparing two very different ideas for effect. The horror genre relies on the juxtaposition of stark normality and peril/danger/terror. Any prospective Horror-genre DM needs to have a good sense of timing, and be familiar with their players' reactions. Once you can see a dawning sense of dread in a player's eyes or hear it in their voice, you pull back and let them catch their breath. Then BAM! hit them with the shocker when they least expect it.
3nigma 10-23-05, 11:32 PM	DId everyone forget the horror-incarnate Mournland? I had my players scared to death in this place. The moment it began to rain, and they realized it was blood, they were ready to be out. Read the "1001 Mournland Horrors" thread for ideas, they are unbelievable ;-). When the players were finally running out of the Mournland scared out of their wit, fleeing from pursuers, random chaotic laughter surrounded them and blinking eyes began to come and fade in the air as they entered into the border mists. -3nigma I am running a special one-time Halloween game based on a horror theme. I also plan on making my next campaign solely and entirely horror-oriented. It is an art to create suspense- abuse the UNKNOWN. Make things flicker by quickly. Make them look into a mirror and see something behind them, that they otherwise couldn't see- and then have to fight it.
deClench 10-24-05, 09:49 PM	An excellent tool is inference. Definately. Good way to control the tone. Any prospective Horror-genre DM needs to have a good sense of timing, and be familiar with their players' reactions. Once you can see a dawning sense of dread in a player's eyes or hear it in their voice, you pull back and let them catch their breath. Then BAM! hit them with the shocker when they least expect it. This one's not as simple. It takes work, and you have to know your players pretty well. I'm going to TRY to pay more attention to the pacing next session. Good ideas.
deClench 10-24-05, 09:57 PM	DId everyone forget the horror-incarnate Mournland? I was so focused on the monsters, I forgot about the "arena." I had my players scared to death in this place. The moment it began to rain, and they realized it was blood, they were ready to be out. Read the "1001 Mournland Horrors" thread for ideas, they are unbelievable ;-). When the players were finally running out of the Mournland scared out of their wit, fleeing from pursuers, random chaotic laughter surrounded them and blinking eyes began to come and fade in the air as they entered into the border mists. My party will be in the Mournland next, and again, I was only planning to focus on the monsters. Thank you, and I may steal the "blood rain" at least... if you don't mind. ;) I am running a special one-time Halloween game based on a horror theme. I also plan on making my next campaign solely and entirely horror-oriented. It is an art to create suspense- abuse the UNKNOWN. Make things flicker by quickly. Make them look into a mirror and see something behind them, that they otherwise couldn't see- and then have to fight it. That's awesome. Myself, I try to place some horrific elements throughout the campaign without constantly abusing the characters. :)
makeshiftwings 10-24-05, 10:24 PM	I'm hoping to kick off a new horror-based Eberron campaign some time in the next week or two, if I can ever get all my players in one room together. I don't want to post any details yet in case any of them read the boards :shifty: but I'll definitely post some details after it's begun. ;)
jonthegm 10-25-05, 02:18 AM	I don't like the mournland as a horror setting. It's too over the top for my players (who are easily distracted). Subtle horror is the way to go. Just outside the border of the mournland is good enough!
LugWrench 10-25-05, 02:34 AM	Dont forget reversal. Example. The PCs have been chased by the Amazingly Indescribable Horror, maybe a PC or two is injured, and the party needs to rest up. The PCs manage to get into a small room and bolt the door shut just as the Horror begins pounding and scratching at the door. The scrabbling claws scratch at the door for hours, and end just before sunrise. As the dawn breaks, and daylight reveals the door, the PCs see the claw marks are on the INSIDE of the door, rather than the outside......
cmanos 10-25-05, 07:06 AM	personally I see OPctober as a month of change and new beginnings. December is the month of horrors.
DarkWarriorKarg 10-25-05, 07:40 AM	personally I see OPctober as a month of change and new beginnings. December is the month of horrors. January... the credit card bill comes in.
Thrincold 10-25-05, 02:11 PM	I personally like mournland, and the underbelly of sharn for horror based campaigns. Mournland was the first time I ever saw two of my players actually scared, not just playing their characters scared, but actually freaked out by what I was doing to them at the time. Good pacing and description goes a long way to scare the crap outta them. I use the underbelly of Sharn for all the more classic horror themed events. the serial killer they must chase into the shadowy abandonned factory, the unnameable horror that is killing people by some strange unknown means etc. Again pacing and description are what is needed for successful horror. Most people are so jaded and blaise about everything now-a-days you have to really dig deep to more primal fears that no one ever gets over, not just the shock horror like the movies we see all too often.
Lurkalot 10-25-05, 06:22 PM	There's a part near the beginning of Wuthering Heights by Emily Bronté where a character in a fever believes he is visited by the ghost of a little girl. She keeps tapping on the glass and he thinks it is a tree branch. Still a little delirious, he punches through the glass to try and break it off and then the cold little fingers clutch at him. In a panic, he drags her forward and pulls her wrist down over the broken glass in a desperate attempt to make her let go. He drags it back and forth and her blood pours over it. I can watch zombies march across London eating people's brains, I can watch serial killers chase people with axes. None of it makes me grab my wrist the way that scene did in that book when I first read it. I've seen horror films where a legion of damned souls try to drag someone down to Hell. Wasn't half as frightening as a woman in a dress where she shouldn't have been in "The Innocents." Hell, even the girl in the blindfold in the mirror in The 'Watcher in the Woods' made me jump more. And for anyone who's ever seen the original Japanese version of Ring, I have only one word to say - "fingernails." What's the difference between these? How is a lacerated wrist more horrible than a hundred corpses? How does a single unexpected ghost make your heart leap in a way that a roiling cloud of screaming souls fails to do? Reality. Countless Hollywood movies have built up what Thrincold called jadedness. It's true, but that jadedness, that armour, is built up out of detachment. The viewer no longer believes in what's in front of him. And you can't break through that detachment by piling on more and more gore and corpses. Hollywood shows the failure of this technique. Every movie has to have a villain that is bigger and badder than the last one, who will get up more times after you think you've killed him and cut you up into even tinier pieces than last time. If the previous film had a insect that got under your skin and burrowed around, then the next film will have to have a swarm of them; and in the film after that they'll combine into one giant insect called Beetleton! It just plainly and simply doesn't work. Instead, you try less. You have to realign people's expectations to the level where seeing someone being clubbed is horrible. People detach themselves from the big horrors, but you can sneak under their guard with the small things. My suggestions for this are firstly and foremost, clear the field. You can't frighten players with a crawling hand if they've just hacked their way through forty orcs. They'll just be asking themselves how many hit points it has. Give them some space and time to get their perspective back. After all, if a player felt something clmib onto their chest at night, you can bet they'd be scared. They need to let their character's attitudes realign with their own a little. Secondly, having cleared out the distractions, focus in on the details of everything. This is another way to draw them in to a little realism. This doesn't contradict the earlier excellent point about inference vs. explanation. A neat and empty room is just as much a description as a jumbled, post-fight room. But if you're going to make small things scary, you need to start describing these small things more often. A child on the BBEG's sacrificial altar is nasty but it's not horror. A child covered in bruises is. Details, details. Thirdly, now that you're focusing on the details and the players themselves are a bit more present in the world you've drawn, you can add the essence of horror - anticipation. Being caught by a demon is bad, but oh, the moments before! Not knowing what they will find, half afraid of what they will. Being attacked is a load of dice rolling, but being stalked through the house or the woods or the caves. Horrible. Uncertainty and lots of it. Once you actually manage to scare your players a little, you can rapidly build on it. You only need to make that first little chink in their detachment and you can start to widen it. If all else fails, throw in a Rust Monster. :D
deClench 10-25-05, 10:23 PM	Dont forget reversal. Example. The PCs have been chased by the Amazingly Indescribable Horror, maybe a PC or two is injured, and the party needs to rest up. The PCs manage to get into a small room and bolt the door shut just as the Horror begins pounding and scratching at the door. The scrabbling claws scratch at the door for hours, and end just before sunrise. As the dawn breaks, and daylight reveals the door, the PCs see the claw marks are on the INSIDE of the door, rather than the outside...... That would certaily terrify me... though I think it would confuse me even more. :thinks: I'd be curious to hear how else to use this "reversal of fortune."
Euangelion 10-25-05, 10:37 PM	"There are sprays of blood across the inn room's walls. Everything else seems quite normal." I think I'd prefer "There are sprays of blood across the inn room's walls. Everything seems quite normal," but on second thought, maybe that takes some of the edge off! ;)
deClench 10-25-05, 10:40 PM	I personally like mournland, and the underbelly of sharn for horror based campaigns. Mournland was the first time I ever saw two of my players actually scared, not just playing their characters scared, but actually freaked out by what I was doing to them at the time. Good pacing and description goes a long way to scare the crap outta them. Please, do elaborate. :) I use the underbelly of Sharn for all the more classic horror themed events. the serial killer they must chase into the shadowy abandonned factory, the unnameable horror that is killing people by some strange unknown means etc. Again pacing and description are what is needed for successful horror. Sharn's depths are PERFECT. Do a little body snatchers thing with some Tsochar or Roach Thralls... an advanced gray ooze that keeps coming out of the plumbing :eek:... a classic haunting. Most people are so jaded and blaise about everything now-a-days you have to really dig deep to more primal fears that no one ever gets over, not just the shock horror like the movies we see all too often. I think there's something to be said for people having become desensitized, but I think it's more with typical D&D play: there's a monster, I need to fight it, and I stand a good shot at killing it. Yes, you need those "more primal fears," but you need to know what they are first and how to incorporate them second. :)
deClench 10-25-05, 11:23 PM	There's a part near the beginning of Wuthering Heights by Emily Bronté where a character in a fever believes he is visited by the ghost of a little girl. She keeps tapping on the glass and he thinks it is a tree branch. Still a little delirious, he punches through the glass to try and break it off and then the cold little fingers clutch at him. In a panic, he drags her forward and pulls her wrist down over the broken glass in a desperate attempt to make her let go. He drags it back and forth and her blood pours over it. I can watch zombies march across London eating people's brains, I can watch serial killers chase people with axes. None of it makes me grab my wrist the way that scene did in that book when I first read it. *snip* It just plainly and simply doesn't work. Very cool. With regard to movies, I agree that there been a bit of desensitization (i.e. I'm sure that the idea of a zombie was scary at one point), but I think that people generally know when not to be scared. What I mean is that if something is obviously fake (i.e. a big dragon of the screen) there's more likely to be a sense of awe than one of fear. It the moments that are real -- that could HAPPEN to you -- that are scary. People scare themselves; they imagine themselves in a situation. Thats why Wuthering Heights stood out for you. Since it was the written word, you had to fill in the blanks yourself and you made a scene that was scary to you. Think of the movie Cujo: that dog was freakin scary because it was just a dog -- a huge freaky dog. Or In the Mouth of Madness: maybe this is just giving away too much of my personality, but who hasn't cringed at the thought of losing one's mind... um who HASN'T right? I agree that movies often get tied up in the special effects and lots of latex and just aren't scary. That being said, I LOVE me some good special effects and lots of latex. ;) Instead, you try less. You have to realign people's expectations to the level where seeing someone being clubbed is horrible. People detach themselves from the big horrors, but you can sneak under their guard with the small things. My suggestions for this are firstly and foremost, clear the field. You can't frighten players with a crawling hand if they've just hacked their way through forty orcs. They'll just be asking themselves how many hit points it has. Give them some space and time to get their perspective back. After all, if a player felt something clmib onto their chest at night, you can bet they'd be scared. They need to let their character's attitudes realign with their own a little. Secondly, having cleared out the distractions, focus in on the details of everything. This is another way to draw them in to a little realism. This doesn't contradict the earlier excellent point about inference vs. explanation. A neat and empty room is just as much a description as a jumbled, post-fight room. But if you're going to make small things scary, you need to start describing these small things more often. A child on the BBEG's sacrificial altar is nasty but it's not horror. A child covered in bruises is. Details, details. Thirdly, now that you're focusing on the details and the players themselves are a bit more present in the world you've drawn, you can add the essence of horror - anticipation. Being caught by a demon is bad, but oh, the moments before! Not knowing what they will find, half afraid of what they will. Being attacked is a load of dice rolling, but being stalked through the house or the woods or the caves. Horrible. Uncertainty and lots of it. Once you actually manage to scare your players a little, you can rapidly build on it. You only need to make that first little chink in their detachment and you can start to widen it. TO sum up Let players normalize Description, description, description Anticipation That sounds like some useful advice. If all else fails, throw in a Rust Monster. :D I've never seen a Warforged run away so fast as when confronted with ol' Rusty. :evillaugh
deClench 10-25-05, 11:25 PM	I think I'd prefer "There are sprays of blood across the inn room's walls. Everything seems quite normal," but on second thought, maybe that takes some of the edge off! ;) :mymy: ... I don't know, I think your version is plenty creepy. ;)
Siran Dunmorgan 10-26-05, 12:28 AM	I'd be curious to hear how else to use this "reversal of fortune."In the writeup I'm working on for the "Terrifying Turf" contest, most of the major non-player characters in the setting start off evil. The House Orien agent at the local lightning rail station, for example, is chaotic evil: he's a pompous little bully who only cares about making everyone else's day miserable. Most other people in the setting are chaotic neutral, neutral evil, or at best, true neutral, except for a goblin child who's neutral good. The adventurers stop at this little town occasionally, it being a rest stop on an otherwise unspecified lightning rail line. Then, one day, the House Orien station agent isn't obnoxious any more. He's polite, attentive, helpful... even well-groomed. The flipskirt barmaid at the local tavern is suddenly wearing conservative dresses, and not swearing a blue streak at the customers. And the little goblin child is freaking out because his friends... aren't his friends anymore... they're different, somehow. Then, between visits, he changes, too. And when the adventurers walk around town... people just look at them. Follow them with their eyes for a few moments, then go back to whatever they were doing. There's nothing to terrify players like having a village full of people who suddenly turned away from obnoxious evil to a kind of servile, fawning helpfulness that's always watching the adventurers, but never meeting their gaze. —Siran Dunmorgan
Setherial 10-26-05, 03:24 AM	I've been using "Darkness and Dread" from Legends and Lairs and I'm not sure Heroes of Horror would add much to that. Anyway one of the things they mention in the book and I believe are very important are low hitpoints. Face it, a 7th level barbarian with 90Hp isn't going to pretend to be scarred when he sees a corpse jump at him out of a mirror. He'll hit it a few times, deal out at least 40 damage and then decide wether it be best he falls back or not. I real life even the most experienced war veteran can still get mortally wounded from a dagger stab in the back. In Dnd this is impossible even with a critical. As a third example try to picture that feeling you had when your character was still first level and crawling though a dangerous dungeon where even the rats could kill you. I had a lot more fun and greater thrill then at mid level where nothing scares me anymore. So one could use another hitpoint system like this one : CON multiplied by size modifier (1/2 for small, 1 for medium, 2 for large) + 1Hp each level. Using this a 10th level fighter for instance would still only have about 25Hp and when facing the city watch, he'd think twice before chopping them to pieces. Imagine the brown buildup in his pants when he sees a giant :)
Lurkalot 10-26-05, 04:55 AM	TO sum up Let players normalize Description, description, description Anticipation That sounds like some useful advice. Darn you Summary Man. How do you do that? Face it, a 7th level barbarian with 90Hp isn't going to pretend to be scarred when he sees a corpse jump at him out of a mirror. He'll hit it a few times, deal out at least 40 damage and then decide wether it be best he falls back or not. I real life even the most experienced war veteran can still get mortally wounded from a dagger stab in the back. In Dnd this is impossible even with a critical. I absolutely agree with this. The D&D system is not well suited to horror. Despite its propensity to attract odd people in white make up, White Wolf's Vampire game had a system that scaled beautifully for horror. Very easy to overcome someone in the right circumstances and very little number crunching to distract us. There are still ways around this in D&D though. That 90Hp barbarian will still be scared when he's forced to wriggle down a tunnel with a mile of unmoveable rock over his head. What if he get's stuck? What if something is waiting for him? What if something is behind him? Entrapment is good in any circumstances. It doesn't matter if your barbarian can survive a couple of rounds before he has to worry if he's hiding in a shack in a deserted village and the werewolves are roaming through the empty streets sniffing him out. He has nowhere to go. Stay in the cupboard or make a run through the dark? Either prospect is going to be terrifying. Hmmmmm.... new game - can I get the barbarian to hide in a broom cupboard? :)
Sereno 10-26-05, 09:17 AM	As I see things, there's basically three "types" of horror/fear: "Jump" horror: a classic in movies, the shower scene in Psycho, when Freddie jumps through the mirror in the first "Nightmare on Elm St.", most of the scenes with the alien in "Alien". These are tough to pull off in DnD because it's hard to get the jump on the PCs the way it's easy to build tension with music in a movie. I don't think I've ever gotten one to work, I don't even try any more. "Dread" horror: typical of all Lovecraft, the key to the Blair Witch. It's not what you see, it's what you DON'T see. You know something is wrong, but not what or why. Your own imagination is usually better at creeping you out than anyone else's idea. This one is easier in DnD ... in fact, the "Fun Tricks With Quori" thread is an excellent example. It necessary to put the PCs in a situation where the details are "off" and spooky things are happening without an immediate or definable cause. An other key factor here is to make the PCs feel less secure in their abilities, they must be up against a foe that cannot be met directly ... the most horrific monster isn't so scary once you know it can be hurt with swords or spells. "Shock" horror: your basic gore-splatter horror movie. Horrendous wounds, horrific acts done by evil, insane, or "unstoppable", monsters. Probably the easiest to pull off in DnD ... the books are full of these sorts of creaturs. But, I believe it is lacking in elegance. The other problem here is that PCs are likely to react to any monster with their courage ... after all vanquishing the mosters is what being a hero is all about. A great quote by Stephen King, "If I can't terrify, I'll horrify ... if I can't horrify, I'll go for the gross-out." When I want to scare my PCs, I go for the second type of horror, dread....
Setherial 10-27-05, 02:59 AM	I agree that the what you describe as the second type "dread" horror is the only really working kind. The mind is a powerfull concept but comming up and telling a good ghoststory is difficult especially for people with little to no experience doing this. What about we try collect some plot ideas and try to come up with a good dread adventure together on these boards ? I'm willing to try and offer ideas where I can...
Sereno 10-27-05, 09:46 AM	I'm actually playing out a "ghost story" adventure with my players right now. It's set in a haunted temple to the Sovereign Host on an island in the Dagger River north of Sharn. The reason for the haunting goes back to just before the Last War where a "Romeo and Juliet"-type story played itself out between two weathly noble families and a corrupt priest. Basically the priest betrays the young lovers to their families, who come to the island, start a huge battle, and slaughter each other. The horror of the killing creates ghosts from most of the main players in the story who are forced to relive the battles and betrayals for eternity. Fast forward to the current time, the temple has been long abandoned because of the ghosts. But, the truth of the history has been largely forgotten. A group of wealthy young people playing adventurer decide to visit the island and find out if the ghosts are real. Unfortunately for them, a gang of thieves have been using the island as a smuggling base and some of the "haunting" is actually their cover. The PCs have to rescue the wealthy kids. At first, they will start to think that the temple isn't really haunted, that it's all the thieves doing ... but slowly, the supernatural elements will reveal themselves until the PCs are caught in the middle of the ghost battles. The PCs will "notice" things like rooms suddenly going cold. Whispers in darkened corners. Statues that seem to change positions when not watched. They will hear the sounds of combat, but see no one. They may catch glimpses of ghostly warriors fighting....
Radkres 10-27-05, 10:45 AM	Something you might consider is don't attack the hit points attack the stats. Think about 1 or 2 points of stat damage when they get hit. Also think small big tough creatures are ok but think about a small fast critter that bites with attach as a special attack. One person gets attacked it attaches itself on the victim then a globe of darkness envelops both the critter and the victim. Think about how bad stirges are in a globe of darkness then have them infected with something like mummy rot. Also think incorporeal and ethereal etc. Or have the one person who takes the late shift guard duty always see a what looks like a misty outline caressing one of the sleeping players they can easily wake the party with no problems the one person who was being caressed is always so cold. But nothing is found or detected when everyone is awake. The secret is one of the players has a rider inside and she is so lonely. Another thing to think about is simple thinks like when the players enter an area make them roll a d20 but don’t say what for just look at the one who rolled the lowest and hand them a note that says you feel something very wrong in this room you don’t know what it is but you could swear something moved out of the corner of your eye. As the game progresses keep handing them notes that they hear what sounds like children playing. They find a small toy or drawing in some of the drawings have children playing with the character in others have monsters of demonic origin playing with the children. anyway some ideas.
jonthegm 10-27-05, 11:05 AM	In Heroic and Superheroic settings, the essence of horror really doesn't lie in damage, or fighting terrible creatures. This is so because: *) The PCs are already fighting something that is near enough to Evil. *) The PCs have pulled off some crazy stuff in the past. *) The PCs are at least a "cut above" the normals. This leads to some problems, but there are a few themes you can exploit: Everyone suddenly hates me. (Very demoralizing, I don't like to use this one.) Everything new is old again. (Deja vu. Good for building tension in any situation) Roll some dice (Lots of spot/listen checks, 66% ordinary 33% wierd) Dream Sequences (Hard to pull off) The Evil (n)PC (There's a thin line in here somewhere that straddles interesting plot hook and being mean to the players) The Crazy Big (scary) Monster (Easy to kill cocksure PCs) Read Heros of Horror. They cover all of these and more. Totally worth your 30 bucks, even if you only run one Horror adventure per year.
deClench 10-27-05, 02:40 PM	What about we try collect some plot ideas and try to come up with a good dread adventure together on these boards ? I'm willing to try and offer ideas where I can... Great idea. I'll certainly add where I can. A good collection of plot minable plots is always a good place to start. I'm actually playing out a "ghost story" adventure with my players right now. It's set in a haunted temple ... *snip* Very cool. Something you might consider is don't attack the hit points attack the stats. Think about 1 or 2 points of stat damage when they get hit. Great observation. Many undead do just that. That's probably the best way around arbitrarily reducing the PC hp. Also think small big tough creatures are ok but think about a small fast critter that bites with attach as a special attack. One person gets attacked it attaches itself on the victim then a globe of darkness envelops both the critter and the victim. Think about how bad stirges are in a globe of darkness then have them infected with something like mummy rot. Also think incorporeal and ethereal etc. Or have the one person who takes the late shift guard duty always see a what looks like a misty outline caressing one of the sleeping players they can easily wake the party with no problems the one person who was being caressed is always so cold. But nothing is found or detected when everyone is awake. The secret is one of the players has a rider inside and she is so lonely. Great ideas! By "rider" you mean a posessing ghost? or something else? This leads to some problems, but there are a few themes you can exploit: Everyone suddenly hates me. (Very demoralizing, I don't like to use this one.) Everything new is old again. (Deja vu. Good for building tension in any situation) Roll some dice (Lots of spot/listen checks, 66% ordinary 33% wierd) Dream Sequences (Hard to pull off) The Evil (n)PC (There's a thin line in here somewhere that straddles interesting plot hook and being mean to the players) The Crazy Big (scary) Monster (Easy to kill cocksure PCs) I especially like the deja vu idea. I use the CB(s)M idea too much. ;)
Radkres 10-27-05, 03:19 PM	Yes it is a type of Possession read more about it in the ECS page 101 A good example of this is Drew Hayes, Poison Elves.
Sereno 10-27-05, 04:07 PM	Something you might consider is don't attack the hit points attack the stats. Think about 1 or 2 points of stat damage when they get hit. Also think small big tough creatures are ok but think about a small fast critter that bites with attach as a special attack. One person gets attacked it attaches itself on the victim then a globe of darkness envelops both the critter and the victim. Think about how bad stirges are in a globe of darkness then have them infected with something like mummy rot. Also think incorporeal and ethereal etc. YES! Stat damage or drain is much more frightening than hp damage (and harder to heal, too). It also strikes at the core of what (generally) makes PCs tougher ... their good stats! Without a lot of Strength, the fighter will not be able to rely on Power Attack to smash through foes. Without Dexterity, the rogue will be vulnerable and feel weak. All keys to instilling horror upon the PCs! I really like the idea of a creature that attacks and drains under some form of cover ... if they can't see what's draining away their life (in the form of some stat ... personally, I don't like to use Con because it's instantly fatal at the end!! I don't want TPKs, I want horrified PCs!) it will be MUCH more frightening that simply seeing a stirge flapping around. Perhaps a similar creature that generates an Obscuriing Mist sort of effect that follows it around would be suitably creepy. I think my haunted temple needs some of these ... attracted by all the negative energy? Actually some form of undead stirge?? How about a curse upon some of those who fell during the slaughter that their spirits have become trapped in the "undead stirges"? That would explain why they haven't left the temple to plague the nearby city ... they can't leave the grounds just like a ghost! An attack by stirges would elicit an, "Aw, crap, stirges ... don't let 'em bite you!" from my PCs ... but, an attack by a sickening yellow mist that flushes red as it feeds would elicit a "I feel weak? What in Dolurrh is this?!?" More dread = better haunted temple experience! :) That reminds me of something else, too ... don't use stock-standard monsters when attempting horror. Use original monsters or put an odd spin on familiar ones. The familiar is not frightening. While *I* think a walking corpse would be really frightening, my PC would not ... they'd know it was a zombie and would probably have seen plenty of them (especially if I was a Karrn).
Radkres 10-27-05, 04:21 PM	Ever use a half fiend weasel that self cast’s globe of darkness? Low Cr 1.25 Has AC 25 Acidic Attack Smite Good Scent (Can track) Low Light Vision Ill Tempered Immunity to Acid Improved Natural Healing Spell Resistance Init +7 Base Melee +9 Feats Improved Natural Attack and Weapon Finesse Nasty critters
il Kav 10-27-05, 04:54 PM	I used some cults of the dragon below to scare my PC: I think madness is the ultimate scaring thing... when you cannot even comprehend WHY the people is doing something very wrong you get very nervous. Good instruments of fear are also some aberrant behavours (like necrophilia or self mutilation... or sado-masochism)... just my two cents :)
jonthegm 10-27-05, 04:58 PM	YES! Stat damage or drain is much more frightening than hp damage (and harder to heal, too). It also strikes at the core of what (generally) makes PCs tougher ... their good stats! Without a lot of Strength, the fighter will not be able to rely on Power Attack to smash through foes. Without Dexterity, the rogue will be vulnerable and feel weak. All keys to instilling horror upon the PCs! I think that anything mechanics related is automatically un-scary. I guess this is because I use Stat damage as a normal part of my game (Poison is the DM's best friend), so it's just another damage type. Horror is all about pacing (as has been said before) and description. That's the long and short of it. Horror isn't horrific unless the players can get into it. So the key is to focus on metagame concerns instead of in-game mechanics.
Radkres 10-27-05, 05:21 PM	True Damage is abstract to most players. The problem is to translate damage or effects of the horror to the player. The character is normally played as an out growth of the player. Example: The rot lich hits you for 14 points of damage make fortitude save. Player rolls a 16 a failure and is struck with flesh eating worms. Take 4 points of damage each round Etc… Game mechanics does not promote fear or dread in the player. It is how you control or relate the image of the event. Example: You turn around as you feel a sharp biting pain spears your arm as an abomination of life pierces your arm with its worm covered flesh in the brief instant of its unnatural touch you see worms crawling into the wound. The problem with this system is you control all the dice rolling and keep track of the hit points and damage this is more of a story teller system. Basically more work on you.
Sereno 10-28-05, 09:04 AM	I think that anything mechanics related is automatically un-scary. I guess this is because I use Stat damage as a normal part of my game (Poison is the DM's best friend), so it's just another damage type. You need the players buy-in at any rate ... if your players refuse to get "into" the mood of the story no amount of description on the DM's part is actually going to help. However, I think that stat damage has an advantage of pure hp damage as it has the potential to remove each character types strengths ... there are poisons to attack each ability type and when a PCs main stat is greatly reduced they WILL feel vulnerable. A sorc or wiz who can't cast is just a weak guy wearing a robe. A fighter too weak to lift his sword is in no better shape.... Example: You turn around as you feel a sharp biting pain spears your arm as an abomination of life pierces your arm with its worm covered flesh in the brief instant of its unnatural touch you see worms crawling into the wound. The problem with this system is you control all the dice rolling and keep track of the hit points and damage this is more of a story teller system. Basically more work on you. True ... the problem with doing this is that you change the dynamics of the D&D game system. Suddenly taking over all damage rolling for the players doesn't sit too well with most. I agree that the descriptions need to be more vivid to promote the horror, but to "do it all" gives most of the player the feeling that the GAME is now out of their control ... not just the in-game situation. The real trick is to give the players the feeling that they still have a major role to play -- i.e. they're not just listening to you tell them a story -- but that their CHARACTERS aren't in control (as they usually are). The sad truth is that D&D isn't really well suited to the horror genre and we need to work very hard as DMs to pull it off. Even when you THINK you're doing it all correctly, you can still miss the mark.
13x13 10-28-05, 11:28 AM	In my upcoming campaign I am planning to have my pc's crash land in an ancient elven city in Xen'Drik. The problem is that the city is full of zombies... flesh eating zombies...with grapple bonuses...and their bite causes a disease that changes dead PC's into new zombies...and non dead pc's that fail the stat save take con damage. After the crash all I have to show is zombies grabbing and eating, slowly, NPCs crippled by the crash. How will the PC's get out, where is the city, which is the shortest way out, is there any place to hide? I think it should be sufficiently terrifying, since they are surrounded by overwhelming numbers of starved zombies, especially since they will most likely treat them as normal pathetic zombies... :D
SelcSilverhand 10-28-05, 11:54 AM	YES! Stat damage or drain is much more frightening than hp damage (and harder to heal, too). That reminds me of something else, too ... don't use stock-standard monsters when attempting horror. Stat draining is by far my favorite combat tactic. I used some Mindshredders from the MM3 in a cave filled with large mushrooms to good effect. I think my players left that cave with an average of 6 wisdom. I also use intelligent monsters that take the time to weaken opponents before they strike openly. Poisoning the morning rations or waterskin works wonders. Everyone has a wand of cure light wounds, but nobody in my group carries around scrolls of restoration. Once their stats get hit a few times, they start getting worried. Most of my players can recognize a monster from the MM1 just by my brief description. From there they will often recall what sort of DR, special abilities, or tactics the creature will use. Though they try not to metagame, they don't get worried when they come across a "common" monster. So I try to mix things up a bit by giving them new abilities. My players are about to encounter Ghouls with a burrow speed. It made sense to give them the ability to dig into a grave and consume corpses there, so my new beasties are going to burst out of the ground and attempt to grapple and drag players back under. Environment conditions are also good for adding tension. I like snowstorms or heavy fog. Forms that appear at the edge of your vision, constant movement, and muffled sounds will help put them on edge thinking something is there. Implying an unknown threat is often better than when the threat actually appears.
Solarious 10-28-05, 12:48 PM	You know, it would be an interesting mechanic to deny your players how much hp damage they've taken, and instead track it all for yourself and convey everything to them by description. It's a loss of certainty and information that brings anxiety and fear. If your character has just suffered a slash to the gut, has organs spilling out, and is keeping his/her intestines inside with one hand while spellcasting with another, would you just shrug it off as "Eh, I still have 23 hit points left, and my buffs can hold off a few more attempts on my life while I nuke a few rear ends with Fireballs", would you? Well? Would you? :schemes: :plotting: :evillaugh :plotting:
Sereno 10-28-05, 03:11 PM	You know, it would be an interesting mechanic to deny your players how much hp damage they've taken, and instead track it all for yourself and convey everything to them by description. It's a loss of certainty and information that brings anxiety and fear. If your character has just suffered a slash to the gut, has organs spilling out, and is keeping his/her intestines inside with one hand while spellcasting with another, would you just shrug it off as "Eh, I still have 23 hit points left, and my buffs can hold off a few more attempts on my life while I nuke a few rear ends with Fireballs", would you? The only problem with this is finding a way to ACCURATELY represent what D&D hp damage means in wounds descriptions. It's true that when the only thing holding your guts in is your armor, you should probably find a way to exit combat. However ... at what level of hp (a flat number, a percentage) is "your character has just suffered a slash to the gut, has organs spilling out, and is keeping his/her intestines inside with one hand" If you go too graphic too early, you risk the PCs acting TOO timid ... if they constantly think they're about to die from horrific wounds, they'll hold back from all encounters and that's not how to run a fun game. If you go too light, you risk them being careless and getting killed instantly from one lucky critical hit.
Sereno 10-28-05, 03:17 PM	In my upcoming campaign I am planning to have my pc's crash land in an ancient elven city in Xen'Drik. The problem is that the city is full of zombies... flesh eating zombies...with grapple bonuses...and their bite causes a disease that changes dead PC's into new zombies...and non dead pc's that fail the stat save take con damage. Might I suggest instead of CON damage ... STR damage. CON damage means death (possibly inevitable). But, STR simply weakens the characters until they're too helpless to fight back. Most characters will face death bravely, die with a blade in their hands ... after all, that's the job of the hero. Leave them weak as kittens before an onslaught of even average strength foes and the situation quickly becomes desperate and frightening. Dying a loss of CON death is like bleeding to death ... grim and final, but still somewhat heroic. You can still make a last bold slash with your sword, or burn your enemies with a final spell. You might even save your friends.... Being pinned immobile by the weight of your own armor, unable to even lift a dagger in your defense as the ravenous zombie horde shambles towards you is MUCH worse.