Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Psifon 04-02-06, 09:15 PM	This thread is devoted to posting ideas for how magic-tec might be applied to solve specific social/industrial problems as a tool for DM's to use to give their Eberron campaign the flavor of "wide magic" or "industrial magic" in the game. It is also ment to provide players with ideas for making the DM cry! The principals of Industrial Magic: 1) Magic can be used to perform work. Putting magic to work as an energy source can produce virtual perpetual motion, because you can get energy out of the system without putting energy into the system, beyond what is needed to set up the system. 2) Magic can be used to create matter. Wall of iron is the most famous example. 3) Magic can be used to save time and conduct the work needed without requiring people to stick around to finish the job. 4) You don't need to have magic in the finished product in order to use magic in the creation process. In fact, magically-driven manufacturing works better if you DON'T have a magical finished product, as this requires the application of XP beyond that needed to set up the system. 5) It is permissable to use the rules for creating new magic items as well as the rules for creating magical traps, and stationary magic items (a la the Stronghold Builder's Guidebook) to create these system. While industrial magic involves the application of these principals, not all of them need to be applied to any one idea for the purposes of this thread.
Psifon 04-02-06, 09:22 PM	Use the gyser function of a decanter of endless water to power a water wheel. Bind a fire elemental to a cauldron to smelt iron, boil water or melt sand to make glass. Bind a water mephit to a barrel to create an indoor water source on top of one of the towers of Sharn. Create a wall of fire enhancment on a basement wall in a keep. Run pipes through the radiant heat portion of the wall to create hot running water. Vent heat throughout the castle to heat the castle. Run a forge and a kiln in that room. Keep a boiler in the room as well to power a steam engine. Idea for a perpetual motion machine. Here is a crude schematic: -----------Dispel Magic Zone------------- -Heavy Weight down ---- Shrunk Weight Up- -Heavy Weight down ---- Shrunk Weight Up- -Heavy Weight down ---- Shrunk Weight Up- -Heavy Weight down ---- Shrunk Weight Up- -Heavy Weight down ---- Shrunk Weight Up- -Heavy Weight down ---- Shrunk Weight Up- -Heavy Weight down ---- Shrunk Weight Up- ----Plate that Casts Shrink Itme 1/round---- So how this works is that you have a conveyor that holds heavy weights (rocks or whatever) on the left side. Gravity drops these onto the plate that shrinks them. this causes them to lose weight, they are then lifted on the right side, by the counterweight of the heavy weaghts on the left side of the conveyor. This brings them back up into the dispel magic zone, which returns them to their normal size and weight. Gravity pulls them down the left side again, and the cycle repeats itself endlessly. Now all you have to do is attach gears and a crank shaft to the thing, and you have an endless power source. Give me your ideas!
aelryinth 04-02-06, 10:13 PM	Restrictions: 1) Heat is not neccessarily radiant (fireballs don't create updrafts or consume oxygen). 2) Matter created by pure magic tends to be unsuitable for trade, unstable if not quickly used, or something similar. Hence, a wall of iron would quickly destabilize if smelted down for raw material, rust faster then a natural wall of iron, and other materials Created by similar means would suffer the same manner of restrictions. Virtually all people engaged in a trade with 5 ranks can recognize something created or crafted by magic on sight as a matter of course. Fabricated items tend to assume the same form and betray their manner of construction as a side-effect of the spell, and most experts can also recognize these on sight. 3) Low level items are much easier to proliferate. 4) Electricity doesn't need to follow the path of least resistance. 5) Spontaneous combustion might exist. 6) Artificial materials are as unnatural as you want them to be. 7) Cold is actually an element. It's not the lack of heat. 8) Enthalpy and Entropy aren't the be-all and end-all of nature. Actually, Life/positive energy and death/negative energy are mutually opposed and balanced forces. 9) Emotion is power. Calculate that, math Wizards! 10) Math does not explain the universe, and there is no law in magic that can't be bent by a little happy chaos. ==Aelryinth
Psifon 04-03-06, 01:10 AM	aelryinth, I'm not really interested in the whole "science of magic" arguement that you and Stembolt are having. Please keep your posts in the spirit of this thread.
turalisj 04-03-06, 07:07 AM	Restrictions: <snip> ==Aelryinth *pulls out 12gauge shotgun and puts holes in the post* ok, now that that's done with.... (oj, and the wall of fire idea is already bieng used, and has been since stronghold builders book came out) A carrige with levitate and unseen steed cast on it. That's all I have for now......
Rageheart 04-03-06, 10:13 AM	not sure if this quite qualifies, Use riding dogs under the effects of Charm Animal and Animal Growth (and for a nice surge slap a Mass Haste on the lot of them...) to turn a MASSIVE wheel (with a Greased axle, of course) then dispel them all before they get fed and kenneled for the night. also... Mage locks: (requires the casting of a specific touch spell then touching a contact plate to open.) mechanics vary depending on the specified spell. Create a permanent wall of ice enhancment on the back wall in a closet. (instant cold larder)
Kreistor1 04-03-06, 11:24 AM	Well, the really easy ones are: Fire Elemental providing the heat source in a Steam Engine. (Just eliminate the coal furnace and replace with Fire Elemental.) Air Elemental uses whirlwind on a fan, turning the shaft that drives the wheels, gears, etc. Water Elemental lifts water from a lower pool to an upper pool, where it falls through a water wheel to a lower pool. Earth Elemental powers a "bulldozer" vehicle in mines, on farms, etc. Reverse the Elemental sea vessel so that the ring is fixed, which forces the water at speed away. This cna be used with a pipe system to move water around a city. Air elemental trapped in a large device converts the materials used for a wand charge into a lightning bolt, which is then released by physical trigger. It's a cannon, usable by anyone that can load the alchemical ingredients and pull a cord. Easily converted to Fireball charges with a Fire elemental, Earthquake by Earth, or a torpedo variant by a water elemental. I may introduce early flight. Orville and Wilbur d'Cannith. I need to develop the tec for the engine first, though. I may jump them straight to a jet style, with the Air elemental vortex sucking in energy from the front and spewing it at high speed out the back. It would change the balance of power considerably, depending on which of the three Cannith factions developed it.
Calibim 04-03-06, 05:24 PM	Bind a fire elemental to a cauldron to smelt iron, boil water or melt sand to make glass. Coming up with a a way to do an eternal wand or maybe even a limited use wonderous item of heat/chill metal to do this would be safer and only require,in the case of the eternal wand, the assistance of a magewright. Create a wall of fire enhancment on a basement wall in a keep. Run pipes through the radiant heat portion of the wall to create hot running water. Vent heat throughout the castle to heat the castle. Run a forge and a kiln in that room. Keep a boiler in the room as well to power a steam engine. Once again making a limited use (Couple of times a day) wonderous item would perform this in a safer fashion. Also, unless your really far north, what do you do about the huge flaming wall in the summer time. You gonna dispel it? Or have a Dispel Magic Zone placed around it? That's gonna last for all the summer months? How much is that gonna cost? Sorry not trying to be nick picky (well not too much :P ) but we should be thinking smarter not working harder. *pulls out 12gauge shotgun and puts holes in the post* ok, now that that's done with.... (oj, and the wall of fire idea is already bieng used, and has been since stronghold builders book came out) That was rude and uncalled for since several points were made that, if you use your imagination, might help you imagine something more constructive then then a mix between a flying carpet and a carriage. For Example: 6) Artificial materials are as unnatural as you want them to be. One of the limitations of certian materials is that, while they are eaiser to fabricate, they are not strong enough to handle pratical applications. Now If I'm not mistaken there is an infusion that makes materials stronger. Use this on let's say copper, which is easier to heat and shape than other metals Think smarter......
aelryinth 04-03-06, 05:47 PM	Binding elementals is time-consuming, requires high levels, and is extremely costly. There's also huge risks if the elemental gets unbound. This is NOT the way to proliferate magitech. Use spells no higher then 4th, and the lower the better. Use item creation feats, because Permanency takes a high level caster and more xp. Keep gold cost and caster levels down. I've seen remarkably few cheap ideas. That's no way to spread magitech. Here's a minor example of what you should be shooting for. Pounding hammer. Masterwork +2. Requires Craft Wondrous item, Unseen servant. Price ~150 gp? This hammer does one thing...it hammers inanimate, non-moving objects. It does so with average strength (10), but it doesn't get tired, and it responds directly to the verbal commands of the last person to wield it. It can move from location to location within 30' of the one using it. It cannot be commanded to attack as a weapon. Each such hammer is a masterwork item for a particular trade, and is also intrinsically capable of Aiding Another for any character with 5 ranks or more in the skill it was crafted for (carpentry skill for carpenter's hammer, smithing for a smith's hammer, etc). They are extremely popular devices for master tradesmen as they help eliminate much of the raw physical drudgery from their jobs. ==Aelryinth
locksley92 04-03-06, 06:21 PM	Pounding hammer. Masterwork +2. Requires Craft Wondrous item, Unseen servant. Price ~150 gp? This hammer does one thing...it hammers inanimate, non-moving objects. It does so with average strength (10), but it doesn't get tired, and it responds directly to the verbal commands of the last person to wield it. It can move from location to location within 30' of the one using it. It cannot be commanded to attack as a weapon. Each such hammer is a masterwork item for a particular trade, and is also intrinsically capable of Aiding Another for any character with 5 ranks or more in the skill it was crafted for (carpentry skill for carpenter's hammer, smithing for a smith's hammer, etc). They are extremely popular devices for master tradesmen as they help eliminate much of the raw physical drudgery from their jobs. Nice one!
Calibim 04-03-06, 10:38 PM	Binding elementals is time-consuming, requires high levels, and is extremely costly. There's also huge risks if the elemental gets unbound. This is NOT the way to proliferate magitech. Use spells no higher then 4th, and the lower the better. Use item creation feats, because Permanency takes a high level caster and more xp. Keep gold cost and caster levels down. I've seen remarkably few cheap ideas. That's no way to spread magitech. Here's a minor example of what you should be shooting for. Pounding hammer. Masterwork +2. Requires Craft Wondrous item, Unseen servant. Price ~150 gp? This hammer does one thing...it hammers inanimate, non-moving objects. It does so with average strength (10), but it doesn't get tired, and it responds directly to the verbal commands of the last person to wield it. It can move from location to location within 30' of the one using it. It cannot be commanded to attack as a weapon. Each such hammer is a masterwork item for a particular trade, and is also intrinsically capable of Aiding Another for any character with 5 ranks or more in the skill it was crafted for (carpentry skill for carpenter's hammer, smithing for a smith's hammer, etc). They are extremely popular devices for master tradesmen as they help eliminate much of the raw physical drudgery from their jobs. ==Aelryinth Amen!!! Now before certian people get their loincloths in a twist I just want to state that THIS is IMO the best way to approach the "magic-tec" idea. Make it simple, affordable, and by keeping the spells at lower levels, easy to create. Unseen servant, phantom steed, heat metal, and chill metal are all low level spells that can be used in ingenuis ways. When you start talking about binding elementals and making spells permenate your getting into astronomical gold cost. And bound elementals have there own inherient dangers.
DarthMidget 04-03-06, 11:36 PM	Well I think the simplest spell to use for industrialization would be Animate Dead. With this spell a wizard can create a tireless, eternal employee for only 50gp. Undead would be particularly useful for mining, construction, and other types of simple manual labor. A wizard owned construction company could work around the clock for much less cost. Some specialized workers would be required, but the multitude of menial and simple, repetitive tasks could be accomplish by Bob the Zombie. Now the only problems with this are moral ones.... :)
aelryinth 04-04-06, 03:23 AM	You could create superior Unseen Servants to do much the same thing, and without the moral qualms and use of negative energy. There also comes the idea that people start becoming worth more dead to you then alive. ===Aelryinth
Roxlimn 04-04-06, 11:08 AM	Get a Creation Forge. Make a Warforged. Presto! Perpetual Energy. Get House Cannith. Make an Airship. Presto! Perpetual Energy. Get an Artificer. Make a decanter of endless water. Presto! Perpetual Energy. Get a Mage. Cast Continual Flame. Presto! Perpetual Energy.
Kreistor1 04-04-06, 11:47 AM	Aelryinth, let's not get into shooting down other people's ideas. Undead are very flexible in what they can do, and would make excellent Contract workers in emergency demand situations. Every invention has its place. More ideas... Create a pair of tubes from one location to another, and use a bound elemental to drive air through a single tube. The operator diverts the forced air from one tube to the other, which passes across a reed. Each tube's reed makes a different tone. The operator at the far end copies down the tone sequence, which represents the Eberron version of Morse Code. Telegraph. Can also be performed using a Fire elemental sending fire up the tube (burning holes in a paper strip at the far end). Teletype. In time, this can be improved to Telephone capacity.
Roxlimn 04-04-06, 12:29 PM	Invention Idea: Make a pair of stones that speak to each other, repeating messages en bloc, in their entirety. Use multiple versions to connect Khorvaire across the continent. Better than telegraphs. Invention Idea: Use a magical item to magically record not only still, but moving images, move for move. Even better, include conversation! With enough range and capacity, can be used to fuel a cultural revolution as the performing arts reach a whole new level of distribution! Invention Idea: Completely fantastical and fictional images captured on a magical item, viewed only for personal pleasure. One 30 minute sequence per item, the magic is sold relatively cheaply. Can eventually be collector's item.
locksley92 04-04-06, 02:03 PM	I don't know if this post is entirely with the spirit of the thread... Anyways, today I was wondering about the theological question of binding elementals. Why is it morally acceptable to the people of Khorvaire to bind elementals? Now the only problems with this are moral ones.... :) As DarthMidget just proved, there are many moral questions about using undead to do this work. What about elementals? Will elementals ever have rights to get paid for their services? People seem to have no problem with binding elementals but they have a problem with using a dead person. In Eberron, are there any activists working for the freedom of elementals? And to those of you who come out and say "oh, if they wasted space on this it would damage the work as a whole", considering how much space of the Eberron Sourcebooks was put into elemental binding, I think this is a justifiable question. Locksley
DarthMidget 04-04-06, 03:56 PM	I don't know if this post is entirely with the spirit of the thread... Anyways, today I was wondering about the theological question of binding elementals. Why is it morally acceptable to the people of Khorvaire to bind elementals? This is probably due to the fact that most people wouldn't consider Elementals to be sentient beings. Most common folk probably don't realize that an Elemental can, theoretically, be as smart as they are. To a normal Eberronian an Elemental looks like fire, dirt, strange wind, and water. As such it probably would never enter their mind that such a creature might be sentient. I'm sure they realize that Elementals are intelligent, but they probably consider them like horses. Of course the real issue for this would be among Gnome binders who do KNOW that Elementals are intelligent creatures. If there was a movement against binding Elementals against their will it would likely be among the Gnomes first. You could create superior Unseen Servants to do much the same thing, and without the moral qualms and use of negative energy. There also comes the idea that people start becoming worth more dead to you then alive. Well the problem with Unseen Servants is that as the spell currently reads an Unseen Servant can do nothing of the scope that an Undead can. As I mentioned there is a moral issue, but for certain nations (i.e. Karrnath) this is less of a concern. I could very easily see a merchant dedicated to the Blood of Vol attempt something like this. Whether or not people would want to buy 'undead goods' is something else. Would there be moral outrage over manufactured goods built in part by undead servitors? It's an interesting question. Still, I think that is beyond the scope of this topic. The question was merely in what way magic could be used to 'industrialize'. As such I think Animate Dead is one of the simplest tools to use in that venture. Aelryinth, let's not get into shooting down other people's ideas. Undead are very flexible in what they can do, and would make excellent Contract workers in emergency demand situations. Every invention has its place. While I appreciate you defending my idea I do think it is useful to have a 'devil's advocate'. Criticism can only help to refine and improve ideas for magical industrialization. As such I don't object to Aelryinth's post. If someone things something won't work then they should say so. All that I ask is that they frame their arguement in a logical way and refrain from name calling.
okaynowa 04-04-06, 06:36 PM	The continual flame spell, however, is perhaps the greatest thing on the market. Since the light produced by the spell “creates no heat and doesn’t use oxygen” (SRD), it probably fails as an energy source; on the other hand, a light that creates no heat, doesn’t use oxygen, is permanent and portable is valuable enough on its own. At the very least, it conserves fuel and can lengthen the effective work day. It’s safer than any other light source while mining, and it can also be used underwater. A team of truedive shifters (who can hold their breath for extended periods even when unshifted) equipped with continual flames could perform ship repairs without the need for a dry dock. Another great magic for public works is the earth lock spell (Spell Compendium, pg 75). It’s another 2nd level wizard spell with a potentially permanent duration for the price of 50 gp. Basically, it allows you to create a command-able valve in a tunnel (or pipe!) up to ten feet in diameter. The tunnel (or pipe!) has to be surrounded by natural earth or un-worked stone, so it’s not an indoors kind of spell. It is, however, perfect for sewer systems, steam tunnels, air filtration—any system in which regulation of flow is important, and the system can be stuck underground. Once it’s installed, the spellcaster can command it with a word, or a knock spell (cast by anybody) can suppress it for ten minutes. There’s potential there for irrigation and canal locks. Ultimately, what's great about these two spells is that they: --Are relatively cheap (50 gp material component) --Are permanent (or effectively so) --Don't require complex or moving parts to be useful --Are low level (sor/wiz 2nd) Perpetual motion and limitless energy are holy grails of tec/tech/engineering/what-have-you, yes... but there's an equally great need for paperclips, light bulbs, and Velcro (tm). I keep thinking there's got to be a profound yet fundamental use for the 0-level cantrip open/close. Perhaps set in a series the spell could recreate the warehouse-sized binary calculating machine... but for that level of effort, it would probably be easier to summon a creature to do the thinking. EDIT: Removed my ill-worded critique of Roxlimn's ideas.
Psifon 04-04-06, 09:16 PM	On the theme of minor magics: One can bind a lantern archon to have it cast 10 continual flame spells per minute. Thats 600 per hour. You can light a city quickly with that, and release the creature after an a couple of hours. Let him know that he is helping to reduce crime in the city, and he might even do the job willingly! Create a hanging rod that casts prestidigitation to clean and press any clothing that are hung on the rod.
DarthMidget 04-04-06, 11:03 PM	Of course one other way to increase the industrialization level is to simply research new spells for just that purpose. Divine casters are somewhat limited by their deity or at least the beliefs of their faith. Wizards, however, operate under no such limitations. As such a wizard could research spells designed for particular magic-tech purposes. Now the problem with spell research is that it most likely would be difficult and expensive. Also I would imagine its not something that can be done scientifically (the whole more art than science arguement). Given this fact it would likely be difficult to research spells for a specific purpose. Still any spells researched for industrial use could have wide ranging benefits. Another issue would be that magic spells with permanent effects are quite rare. As such this must be something inherently difficult. Most spells are only able to expend a certain amount of energy for a certain period. Thus the importance of the Permanent spell in D&D lore. Also the only permanent spell effects w/o the use of the aforementioned spell seem to have minor effects. Then there is the problem of requiring the wizard to do it! This doesn't get around the issue that specific individuals are required for industrialization. This also coincides with a related problem of 'patents' if you will. A mage who manages to research a very profitable industrial spell is likely to hoard that knowlege. These would create a scenario similar modern circumstances in which nations and corporations hoard technological knowledge. Even with all these problems, however, I think spell research is an untapped field that could be quite beneficial. Some thoughts on what spells could be developed to aid industrialization would be interesting. As far as guidelines I would recommend keeping the spell relatively low level, with permanent effects, and with minor 'output' so to speak.
DMDaddy 04-05-06, 12:45 AM	I love this thread. While you all are going into detail on how to use the rules of D&D to apply magic, I love to just say it's powered by magic. Magic stoves, magic refrigerators, magic air conditioners for houses, magic heaters, magic dish washers. Here's one I use in my campaign. Telecommunications via small magic mirrors 8" x 8". Many of the wealthy and government officials own them. They aren't quite like telephones were you can dial any number. These are pre-set to comunicate with certain others. Mass production via a magically powered assembly line with a few laborers to put the pieces together or adjust the machinery or move items from one line to another. Items could include weapons, wagons, furniture, etc... Again, I'm not too much into the hows and neither are my players.
Lokiyn 04-05-06, 01:30 AM	1.) The Liquid Pain link in my sig 2.) Continual flame in a mirrored tube with a highly focused lens for a sodering iron/ micro welder/ fire source. 3.)Level 0 Prestidigitation box use activated (insert coin) that cleans 1 cubic foot of clothing. Assuming that you operate for 12 hours a day and it takes three rounds/ 1 to load one to activate and one to unload. you could handle up to 2400 loads per day. Even at 1 copper per load you are earning 24 gold per day and will pay off the machine in ({[.5*2000*1]=1000 market}/24=41.666) so 42 days. After that its pure profit at an affordable cost. even if it only sees one use per min it earns 7.2 gold a day which turns to profit at day 139. Fear my mage's earning potential
Nimrud 04-05-06, 02:47 AM	Here are a couple of things I "invented" in an old campaign I played in. Cylinder of Amanuensis This is a cylindrical device slightly over a foot long. By depressing a certain button and rolling the cylinder along any surface (e.g. a scroll, book or stele), the cylinder copies any form of writing (except spells or writing that is obscured by magic e.g. illusory script) or two dimensional drawing (not bas reliefs or sculpture) on the surface. It can copy up to 100 pages or 100 ft x 1 ft of writing or drawings at a time. You can make the cylinder 'forget' the copy it holds by saying a command word and pressing another button. If dipped in ink, the cylinder absorbs enough ink to reproduce whatever writing or drawing it has copied (only in the colour of ink absorbed), and then if pressed against a flat surface which can hold the ink and rolled along it after another command word is said, the cylinder reproduces whatever it has copied. It can make an unlimited number of copies of whatever text or drawings it currently holds. However, the cylinder must be recharged with ink after printing 100 ft x 1 ft of writing or drawings. A third function of the cylinder is to aid in research. The user of the cylinder may search for any word, phrase or symbol by uttering a command word, pressing a button, then rolling the cylinder over the searched for word, phrase or symbol. Thereafter, until the command word is uttered again, if the cylinder touches any scroll or book containing the searched word, phrase or symbol, it will light up. If the cylinder actually passes over the searched word, phrase or symbol, it will make a sound chosen by the user (default is the sound of chirping of a cricket). Endless Scroll Basically a very very long scroll 1 ft wide stored in an extradimensional space between two parallel bars a little longer than 1 ft. You can pull the bars apart revealing the scroll stored within. In addition, the scroll bars have rings at both ends which can be turned. Depending on the position of the rings, the scroll will open at specific points e.g. Vol XXI Chapter VII Line CLXIX when the scroll bars are pulled apart. The scroll will be resistant to fire, water, and physical damage such as cutting and tearing. The paper could be one continuous scroll joined end to end within the extradimensional space like a Moebius strip so you can scroll continously and reach any point on either side of the paper. The length of the scroll can be calculated as follows. Taking the smallest bag of holding which can hold 30 cubic ft, and assuming a parchment thickness of 0.02 inch (200 mil paper), 30 cubic ft will be able to accommodate a volume of paper 1 ft wide and 18,000 ft in length. If you can use both sides, that translates into a 36,000 ft long scroll. An arcane library for researching spells requires at least 200 arcane tomes. Assuming each tome has as many pages as a spellbook i.e. 100 pages, an arcane library has to have 20,000 pages. Assuming each page is 12' x 12' you can fit an entire arcane library into the scroll and have lots of room to spare. Combine the Cylinder and the Endless Scroll, you get a searchable database. Use the Cylinder with an automatic ink feed, you get a continuous roll printing press. You could also use the Cylinder like a portable xerox machine.
Nimrud 04-05-06, 02:51 AM	Level 0 Prestidigitation box use activated (insert coin) that cleans 1 cubic foot of clothing. Assuming that you operate for 12 hours a day and it takes three rounds/ 1 to load one to activate and one to unload. you could handle up to 2400 loads per day. Even at 1 copper per load you are earning 24 gold per day and will pay off the machine in ({[.5*2000*1]=1000 market}/24=41.666) so 42 days. After that its pure profit at an affordable cost. even if it only sees one use per min it earns 7.2 gold a day which turns to profit at day 139. Better yet. No detergent. No pollution. No water or power required. No maintenance. Works forever 24 x 7. Your clothes even come out smelling good. :ayyyy!:
Tonpa 04-05-06, 04:10 AM	Here are a couple of things I "invented" in an old campaign I played in. Endless Scroll While I have foud the other things in here a bit mjeh, for my taste, this is in fact really cool. Good thinking!
Thanqol 04-05-06, 04:56 AM	Hence, a wall of iron would quickly destabilize if smelted down for raw material, rust faster then a natural wall of iron, and other materials Created by similar means would suffer the same manner of restrictions. Virtually all people engaged in a trade with 5 ranks can recognize something created or crafted by magic on sight as a matter of course. Wrong, actualy. Read the Spellcraft description - it's DC 20+Spell level to realize it was magicaly created. Not many commoners have Spellcraft.
Kreistor1 04-05-06, 11:15 AM	In "Shadows of the Last War", you can find that Cyre was using Elementally powered appliances. I keep looking at mass market applications. Elementally powered ships that you need a Dragonmark to steer well are not a long term solution. Solutions for the common man have much more market viability. I don't see the next one as being developed anytime soon, but I do see this kind of thing as inevitable. Take a tube. shrink the back end so that the intake is larger than the outlet. In the middle somewhere, place a shard with a fire elemental bound inside. You want it to just produce heat between 200 and 400 C. It needs to be held in place with materials that won't melt in that temperature range. Nozzles intrude into the tube, pointing towards the shard. These will spray an explosive alchemical mixture at the shard. The fire elemental's job is partly to direct the flame out the rear of the tube. Light it up. Jet plane.
cancerousmango 04-05-06, 12:31 PM	Check out the Iron Kingdoms Character Guide, for its steamjacks. It goes in the opposite direction of most Cannith engineering, as they're steam powered, but I can imagine it working in Eberron. Plus, the steamjacks look incredible. http://www.privateerpress.com/ironkingdoms/default.php?x=rules/steamjacks
nyysjan 04-05-06, 12:57 PM	wondrous item that casts detect poison i would imagine that every noble has one
Lord_Butler 04-07-06, 03:37 PM	Well I think the simplest spell to use for industrialization would be Animate Dead. With this spell a wizard can create a tireless, eternal employee for only 50gp. Undead would be particularly useful for mining, construction, and other types of simple manual labor. A wizard owned construction company could work around the clock for much less cost. Some specialized workers would be required, but the multitude of menial and simple, repetitive tasks could be accomplish by Bob the Zombie. Now the only problems with this are moral ones.... :) I can just picture former construction/menial labor workers picketing a wizard's company chanting "The Rot-Backs took our jobs!" :rofl: Not meant to be offensive.
Lord_Butler 04-07-06, 03:46 PM	Will elementals ever have rights to get paid for their services? People seem to have no problem with binding elementals but they have a problem with using a dead person. Elementals wouldn't rise any ethical questions that I can picture. Bound elementals are used pretty widely. Again the only ethical concern with doing this is the probable putting existing construction companies out of business because your services are cheaper due to the fact that you wouldn't have to deal with labor unions or pay your workers.
NathanD 04-07-06, 04:25 PM	Not to get too far off the subject, but in my observation, most of you are looking at this from the wrong end. You are trying to create a perpetual power source to run machinery. This is a view point of Science with access to Magic. Take one step back, and turn your view point just slightly. Go back, and start with the problem, not just the solution. If I was in a world with magic, and needed to grind my grain, I would not create a waterwheel that would work all year round, because I would still have to have someone maintain all of the machinery in-between the waterwheel and the grindstone. I would enchant the grindstone to turn by itself, and to harden it so no grit would get into the final product. Take one of the posts above, where someone designed a jet engine. The idea is cool, if I had a plane to put it on. But the problem is not “how do I push a plane fast”, the problem I want to solve is “I want to fly”. Try listing everyday problems and then come up with new ways to solve them with magic items of the lowest power needed.
Kreistor1 04-07-06, 05:38 PM	Well, Nathan, that may be how a miller would think about it, but that's not how designers think about it. They take what they have (elemental bindings providing power) and shoehorn what they know into a method of solving the problems. In the end, it's the Miller asking the Wizard for a less expensive, more financially viable solution, not the Miller solving the problem and asking the Wizard to build his solution. So, is a Wizard going to: a) invent a new tec to solve the problem or b) go with what he knows and solve the problem with the tec he's got More often than not, it's b). Yes, I could theoretically just slap a Dragonshard to the wheel and say, "The earth elemental turns the grindstone." But that is, in the end, unsatisfying. It's too simple, and has no air of the fantastic about it. Complex, Grandiose, Oversized -- those were the beginnings of industrialization on Earth, so people will feel a greater sense of awe if that is the same on Eberron. They'll get a better sense of being there because they have a point of reference. Immersion into the setting works best if the players can visualize and associate what they see to what they know. Sure, you can go the route of comepltely sensible fantasy solutions, but the players won't have the association necessary to feel like they're looking at the beginnings of industrialization. Make it look like what they know of the beginnings of industrialization, and you're golden. The similarity of Lightning Rail to Railroads, Airships to Blimps, and Elemental Vessels to Steamships is not a mistake. It is intended to make the player feel as if he's living in a fantastic world where they are using elemental bindings in place of steam engines, and driving their own industrial age. That theme is what I'm trying to stick to in my designs. I'm just filling in the holes, since the books only mention what players would findthemselves in the presence of. The players won't come in contact with a clothing factory, so why waste space in the book for how they use elementals in the production of clothes? And so on.
NathanD 04-07-06, 07:21 PM	Well, I agree and respectfully disagree with you. Yes, the wizard will do the problem solving. He is the expert in the field of magic. He will use what he knows to best solve the problem. Now, I consider myself an expert in my field, and far to often, someone will come to me with a solution to his or her problem, and of course, the solution is totaly wrong and would usualy make things worse. I have to stop them, and ask them, what is the problem, and let me come up with the solution. That is what I see going on in this thread, solutions without looking at the problem from the point of view of someone that would be an expert in magic. It is from the point of view of knowing the end product of our world, and trying to get there with magic, insted of looking from the point of view of someone with magic trying to solve a problem, if that makes any sense.
DMDaddy 04-07-06, 07:39 PM	That theme is what I'm trying to stick to in my designs. I'm just filling in the holes, since the books only mention what players would findthemselves in the presence of. The players won't come in contact with a clothing factory, so why waste space in the book for how they use elementals in the production of clothes? And so on. Dittos here. Also, the clothing factory is an interesting idea. I think I will create it as a location in a future quest. I can see an interesting scenario were an evil group takes over a clothing factory to put some magic threads in rich clothing so they can later track down certain rich people. Maybe certain ceremonial robes worn by town officials.
aelryinth 04-07-06, 08:10 PM	Wrong, actualy. Read the Spellcraft description - it's DC 20+Spell level to realize it was magicaly created. Not many commoners have Spellcraft. If you are going to be 'free' of the abuse of Fabricate and creating raw material, you need to find a way around it. I'd say anyone could make a Spellcraft check to see that an item is magically made...it's all inclusive. An expert in a particular field can be easily and specifically educated to recognize magically made items in his field of expertise...I'd sub a Profession check for the Spellcraft check. Ergo, a smith is going to recognize iron from a Wall of Iron spell, and a Fabricated sword, with remarkable ease. He won't be able to tell Fabricated rope or a leather saddle from adam, tho, without some extra skill ranks. Try to keep Elemental Binding to a minimum. the level reqs make it very elitist. We want low level, simpler magic for actual magitech. ===Aelryinth
Nimrud 04-07-06, 11:26 PM	Now, I consider myself an expert in my field, and far to often, someone will come to me with a solution to his or her problem, and of course, the solution is totaly wrong and would usualy make things worse. I have to stop them, and ask them, what is the problem, and let me come up with the solution. Equally, there are often 'experts' who are so expert in their field that everything looks like a problem that fits their 'solution'. And then you have the clients who have to stop the expert and ask him to focus on what the real problem is, so that they can have a real solution. While a villager might not be able to tell an artificer what to do, a noble or king rich enough to afford an artificer, could. On the flip side, an artificer or wizard who could understand the needs of the clients better and provide better solutions, would be richer, more famous and have better luck with chicks than one who couldn't. :D
Nimrud 04-07-06, 11:44 PM	Here's another magi-tech 'invention': The Amazing Neon Clock Tower (Even ancient civilisations like the Egyptians, Chinese, Mayans have developed clocks, so don't bother asking "now why would anybody want a clock". :P ) This is a massive magical device that tells time more accurately than an atomic clock, because well it's magic. :D Due to its massive size, it must be installed in a large enough structure which can bear its weight. Typically it is set on the highest tower in the middle of a city or town, so that everybody can see it. However, since everybody looks at it all the time, some bright spark at the merchant's guild that commissioned the clock asked the artificer to build in a programmable illusion (inclusive of sight sound and smell) which will play on each of the clock's four faces at various intervals. For a fee, the merchant's guild will allow people to display short messages in moving pictures, sound and even smell at intervals. Thus a business could advertise its wares, a noble can announce the birth of a son, a city official can display public messages on the clock. The artificer also programmed in various performances by famous bards so that different performances will play to mark the passing of each hour of the day. At an emergency, one could use the programmable illusion to broadcast emergency warnings, or to create a bright visible display to call for help. One city has programmed an emergency signal in the form of a stylised bat, apparently to call for the services of a high-level vigilante that serves as the city's guardian. :D
Nimrud 04-07-06, 11:55 PM	I can imagine shortly after the advent of this clock tower in Sharn, somebody will think of enchanting whole towers with the ability to display programmable illusions, perhaps linked to a stage in a famous concert hall, so that performances can be displayed on an entire tower. Images of Blade Runner run across my mind, with skycoaches flying alongside giant tower-high displays. Think of the possibilities. Rock-stars! Open-air concerts! And what about staged gladiatorial contests? Can anybody say WWE? What about a smaller portable device that can record sight and sound and display it as a programmable illusion on the tower? Live tower-cast of the Race of Eight Winds!
aelryinth 04-08-06, 03:38 AM	You also have to remember that in a society with magic, individuals are king. That display is going to get SO tagged and hacked,,,a lot ==Aelryinth
locksley92 04-09-06, 07:18 AM	Elementals wouldn't rise any ethical questions that I can picture. Bound elementals are used pretty widely. Again the only ethical concern with doing this is the probable putting existing construction companies out of business because your services are cheaper due to the fact that you wouldn't have to deal with labor unions or pay your workers.Sounds like your defending a real-world lumber company. Don't worry, I'm not preaching here :).
NathanD 04-09-06, 11:09 AM	Personal Water Craft This small, shallow bottomed boat is typically around 6 feet in length and 2 feet wide. The higher end models are made of the lighter (but more expensive) soar wood. This craft is powered by the ever popular Decanter of Endless Water (Cannith Trademark) set permanently to geyser mode. The controls are simple, and can be mastered in a short time by almost anyone. One lever removes and replaces the stopper in the mouth of the decanter, thus allowing forward movement and the ability to stop. The second lever opens and closes two halves of a clever, bowl shaped device located near the mouth of the decanter, actually allowing this amazing little craft to move backwards in the water, by itself. The third lever is attached like a tiller to the decanter, allowing it to pivot from side to side. This speedy, agile little craft is large enough to carry two lightly encumbered medium sized humanoids. This craft is not suitable for extended travel, nor for the high seas, and the makers of this product will not accept any responsibility for its use in those situations.
Nimrud 04-09-06, 11:26 AM	You also have to remember that in a society with magic, individuals are king. That display is going to get SO tagged and hacked,,,a lot All the more fun! Although without connectivity, you'd need to take over the 'TV station' (so to speak) in order to hack it.
aelryinth 04-10-06, 03:54 AM	Personal Water Craft This small, shallow bottomed boat is typically around 6 feet in length and 2 feet wide. The higher end models are made of the lighter (but more expensive) soar wood. This craft is powered by the ever popular Decanter of Endless Water (Cannith Trademark) set permanently to geyser mode. The controls are simple, and can be mastered in a short time by almost anyone. One lever removes and replaces the stopper in the mouth of the decanter, thus allowing forward movement and the ability to stop. The second lever opens and closes two halves of a clever, bowl shaped device located near the mouth of the decanter, actually allowing this amazing little craft to move backwards in the water, by itself. The third lever is attached like a tiller to the decanter, allowing it to pivot from side to side. This speedy, agile little craft is large enough to carry two lightly encumbered medium sized humanoids. This craft is not suitable for extended travel, nor for the high seas, and the makers of this product will not accept any responsibility for its use in those situations. Now, we just need to take that 9000gp cost down some. Note that you could get a VERY speedy little craft from this, and actually this is a far more viable device if you make the Decanter detachable. A perfect adventurer's tool, actually. A less expensive, non-removable yet equally effective form of propulsion would be more 'techy'. ================ As for the sign, TV station? Nah, just mess with the colors of the sign:) ===Aelryinth
Kamikaze Chicken 04-10-06, 10:39 AM	For a slightly slower craft, you could simply have a water wheel style boat with a "create water " effect placed above it. For a first level caster it would generate 2 gallons per casting, so thats 2 gallons per 6 seconds, 20 gallons a minute. Im no water wheel expert but i think this would make a very affordable transportation device at a base cost of only around 1,000 gold. I know it is still pricy, but it coul dbe detached, and supply a party, or town with fresh drinking water at all times. More immportantly for a larger investment of gold, you could make larger water hweel ships, and also supply the crew and passengers with water at all times. Just my two cents on making this idea cheaper. KAMIKAZE! :chicken: edit: marked down price since create water is a 0 level spell.
ardisian 04-10-06, 01:45 PM	Lets look at a few common problems and how to solve them using magic. Food Spoiling - some people think of creating a magical freezer to freeze the food. How about a simple plate that causes a purify food & drink effect. I could see this preventing food from spoiling as it would remove any bacteria/mold. The cost shouldnt be too high and can probably be minimized with a limited use per day. Imagine a large table laid out with food - after a day the food begins to spoil so the servants go out and active the plates - purifying the food and making it edible again. A better Mirror - perhaps a noble would like a better way of seeing how she looks in her new clothes - an artificer creates a magical device that creates an illusion of her that she can then walk around and see from any angle. Craft Wondrous item and would require the mirror image spell to create. Probably make the item itself fairly large and non-portable (reduce the cost by doing so I would imagine). The whole idea is to solve the problem using magic - not to create modern technology powered by magic. for the flour mill I would probably think of either making the milling stone harder and self moving or just create a magical plate that magically mills the flour (could probably be done/mimicked with a low level spell such as prestidigitation or unseen servant) without moving at all - remove the need for better/harder stone to eliminate grit and the need to move the stone.
Mr. Twist 04-10-06, 03:05 PM	I built a foundry under sharn with a energy resistance zone ringing a Well of Falling. These were in a cylindrical shaft that opened down over the lava fields. Opperators were armed with large poles and move the raw material up to cool it, or down to heat it. As bits melted, they could pull out the slag with this sticks. Un-needed material is pushed out of the levatation field and drops into the lava. If you take care of the heat, weight, and logistics, high grade ore can be processed by a trained chimp with a stick. Put it in Sharn, and you even get the heat for free.
Kamikaze Chicken 04-11-06, 02:02 PM	Stun Stick This rod is often employed by militia, or police forces in response to domestic disputes, riots, or other wise violent situations involving low-threat individuals. Club/rod/wondrous item, that delivers an extended daze spell on the target. useful for when you just want that pick pocket to "STOP!" Boots of Escape Many an artificer has had an experiment go bad, and likewis emany miners, or lumberjacks have found need of a hasty retreat. For those individuals who have need of a quick get away from danger there is a solution. once per day expeditious retreat on user.Note: must move at full speed if at all possible: When you just need to get away Cainith Cauldron This small black iron cauldron is used along side an alchemist kit for the alchemiston the go. This cauldron utilizes the heat and chill metal spells as needed to attain the temperatures needed for certain alchemical mixtures. An alchemist with atleast 5 ranks in alchemy benefits as from an aid another effect when using this cauldron during alchemical processes. "hand held getaway" these small pellets are created for rogues who need a little help now an again. When thrown on the ground or any other hard surface both the daze, and lullaby spells are enacted on the spot. The daze effect last for one round, and the lullaby effect continues for rounds after that giving the roques a chance to sneak away.( superior models can also include obscuring mist for further confusion) "Jorasco monitor" This large box sit sin the middle of many jorasco hospitals and infirmaries. When ever some one with the mark of healing rests there hand upon the top of it they are granted the spelle ffect death watch, and imeadiatly can ascertain the lively hood of their wards. Some more advanced models also include detect poison, and magic to help with detection and treatment of various ailments. fire-killer These boxes are kept in certain areas at high risk of fire. By lifting the case and pulling the handle the item imeadiatly enacts a Quench effect as per the druid spell. These items have saved many forges/foundaries/labs/fine eating estabishments. Sky-Hoof these are specially created hore shoes( forged form mithril and utilizing the air walk spell) which enable the steed to trad on the air itself for limited amounts of time. While initially thought to be impractical it was favored by young nobles of Sharn's dragonmarked houses. Every now and again one can see a young cainith riding from twoer to tower..... Anti-thief This is a system installed in well to do nobles homes, or in merchant stores and warehouses. An alarm spell is placed and if it is triggered a grease spell is also layered upon the floor of the building or room so protected. To further ensure capture of the thief improve dmodels can cast hold portal on numerouse windows and or doors to ensure no escaping on the part of the thief. A command word will deactivate the system to avoid messy mistakes on the part of the owner. Live-rope This length of rope has been permenantly animated through the animate rope spell. When a command word is spoken the effect take shold and the rope will willingly obey the commands given by whom ever spoke the command word. This rope has been included in some air/sea ships and is known as Live-rigging, where it allows fewer deck hands to operate the rigging effectivly. Also some militia have found it useful to have thes elaying about in the pillory to help abate esape atempts. Trader crate This crate automatically shrinks every item palced into it as per the shrink item spell, though it does not utilize the cloth consistency option. because of this the crate(s) allow traders to transport 16 time smore cargo. how ever many a trader ha shad the misfortune of a crate breaking, and the subsequent increase in weight downs is air ship. Morgrave Study Guide These books are created by shady upper level students at the university in hopes if making a little extra gold. When this book is throughly studied for ten minutes it gives the user the effect of Mnemonic Enhancer spell. Imeadiatly upon being read the book sonsumes intself in a small blaze and is gone. This item helps lower students with their daily prep before exmas, but some copies have found themselves intot he nands of adventuring wizards. Well, i think ill call it good for now, i know i didn't provide crunch fr these, but thats becaus ei not sure how to. Any one feel free to crunch these, r steal them for your own Eberron KAMIAKZE! :chicken:
Kamikaze Chicken 04-14-06, 03:11 AM	:bump: shameless i know....
Roxlimn 04-14-06, 03:21 AM	okaynowa: Actually, I was just demonstrating that while perpetual motion would be the holy grail of engineering, it's actually quite trivial when you're talking about magic. Many magical spells can be used perpetually, especially with the application of the permanency spell. The estimated cost of a Warforged is about 2000 gp, and they're just as easy to control as any other slave or animal - and they don't need feeding or maintenance. They don't even need sleep. They are perpetual motion incarnate. Kreistor1: They take what they have (elemental bindings providing power) and shoehorn what they know into a method of solving the problems... More often than not, it's b). Yes, I could theoretically just slap a Dragonshard to the wheel and say, "The earth elemental turns the grindstone." But that is, in the end, unsatisfying. It's too simple, and has no air of the fantastic about it. Complex, Grandiose, Oversized -- those were the beginnings of industrialization on Earth, so people will feel a greater sense of awe if that is the same on Eberron. They'll get a better sense of being there because they have a point of reference. The thing here is that you're assuming that Wizards would think the same way you do and have the same scientific resources that you obviously take for granted. You already know how to craft these gears and machinery, or know someone who does. These people don't. What they have is alchemy and spellcraft and artifice. Given that they already have this fund of knowledge, they will use this to solve a problem, instead of hieing off somewhere trying to make some cumbersome overly huge equipment work. Quite literally, binding an Elemental to a grindstone is less difficult for a Khorvairian, than trying to figure out how to do so using a machine. An automatically grinding grinstone does, actually, have something of the wonderful in it. Indeed, as far as I can tell, people in the Industrial Age only liked big noisy machines because they did things that were not possible before. IF they could build it smaller, they actually did so. Indeed, that kind of attitude is precisely the birth of the modern miniturization trend. Although this is more evident in the computer, smaller is obviously almost always better, if it could do everything the large equipment could. In that respect, the people of Khorvaire are beyond simple Industrial Age technology. They've progressed beyond it in some ways, though they are still behind in other ways. I don't believe that Airships are meant to simulate Blimps, nor Lightning Rails Steam Locomotives, nor Elemental Galleons Steamships. Why? Because they're just so much better. A Lightning Rail is HUGE. It's huge even by today's train standards. It's fast, it has refrigerated cars, and it requires no fuel. It would be a coup to mimic this level of performance even with today's technology. What about an Airship? It's relatively slow, but it's also huge, and it flies perfectly, being driven by its Elemental. It doesn't need wind, it's not at the mercy of the wind. It could probably stay perfectly still even in moderately gale force winds. That's more than what we can say about modern VTOLs. Elemental Galleons? Those things are extremely fast. As in hydrofoil fast. Think about something on a level with an Ocean Liner, except it moves as fast as a hydrofoil. As is perfectly maneuverable. Again, way beyond Industrial Age tech. If anything, I'd say Eberron magical performance is more on a level with Star Wars than Victorian England. If you want to expand the artificial devices in the game, I think that this level of comparative technology is a better place to start. Instead of thinking about how to put a magical waterwheel to work, what about thinking about a Planar Skiff that hops across worlds? A Nuclear Nautilus to explore the Ocean Deeps without ever surfacing is another worthy idea. If you want something more mundane, a Cloth Colorer that instantly changes the colors of your clothes and cleans them. NathanD: That's pretty clever, of course, but you would need to integrate the magic of the device to the overall device or there's no telling how it would work. It's possible of course, but it wouldn't be a device based off of Decanter of Endless Water, it would be a whole 'nother device altogether. Seeing as watercraft are currently based on elemental binding, that method might have advantages that we are not aware of. Perhaps the Geyser of a Decanter is just too diffcult to control.
Just another user 04-14-06, 03:49 AM	Lets look at a few common problems and how to solve them using magic. Food Spoiling - some people think of creating a magical freezer to freeze the food. How about a simple plate that causes a purify food & drink effect. I could see this preventing food from spoiling as it would remove any bacteria/mold. The cost shouldnt be too high and can probably be minimized with a limited use per day. Imagine a large table laid out with food - after a day the food begins to spoil so the servants go out and active the plates - purifying the food and making it edible again. Problem, this would send house Ghallanda out of business (not really, but it would make them lose a lot of money) so either is not possible, it need a mark of hospitality to work, or house Ghallanda is making sure it is never realized. Another thing to consider when making magic items in Eberron is to be careful to don't make the Houses redundant, at last not unintentionally.
Roxlimn 04-14-06, 04:38 AM	Actually, I could easily see this as a Dragonshard Item made specifically for use by Ghallanda personnel.
okaynowa 04-14-06, 09:23 AM	Said Roxlimn: Actually, I was just demonstrating that while perpetual motion would be the holy grail of engineering, it's actually quite trivial when you're talking about magic. Many magical spells can be used perpetually, especially with the application of the permanency spell.Roxlimn is of course correct. But I'd still argue that it would be more cost effective and innovative to develop new, cheap, potentially permanent 2nd level spells like continual flame, earth lock, and arcane lock than to rely on castings of 5th level, xp-reliant permanency. EDIT: Removed the bit where I start to get preachy about warforged. Using magic to simplify the rigging of a ship so it can sail with a smaller crew seems like a goal Lyrandar or the gnomes could hire Cannith to look into-- the animate rope spell is nice and low level. Finding a faster way to don or doff armor would also be a worthy goal. If a Cannith engineer could find a way to reduce the time it takes to put on chainmail or plate mail to rounds instead of minutes, he'd revolutionize military reaction time. A string of cantrips could create self-buckling straps, or a higher level spell could keep the armor in place without the need for straps at all.
Roxlimn 04-14-06, 07:36 PM	okaynowa: The problem is that warforged aren't as easy to control as any other slave or animal for the very reason that they don't need food, shelter, or sleep. An enslaved warforged has no incentive to keep working except physical restraint or the threat of violence. Unless the overseer is also an unsleeping warforged, people working in shifts will have to watch them 'round the clock to keep them working and prevent escape attempts. And attempt they can: warforged come standard with armor and a slam attack. These qualities are not attractive to the person holding the (now ineffective) whip. No, they're not as easy to control. In fact, they're easier to control. They're made that way. Warforged are made to follow orders and their entire experiences are made up of following orders. Without orders to follow, they're quite literally lost. They like being ordered around. Warforged slaves and indentured servants are found throughout the Five Nations percisely because they're so willing to work as servants. Indeed, I would be much more willing to leave Warforged completely unguarded because I know they're loyal to me and that given proper instruction, they'll actually guard themselves, which is more than what I can say about animal labor. I'm sure that using slave labor would sound Evil to most Westernized peoples, but it is nonetheless, a very efficient sort of invention. It requires nothing other than a permanently moving artificial device. Using magic to simplify the rigging of a ship so it can sail with a smaller crew seems like a goal Lyrandar or the gnomes could hire Cannith to look into-- the animate rope spell is nice and low level. Using a junk rig instead of square rigs vastly improves on the manpower required, as well as making it safer and more maneuverable. This requires no magic whatsoever. Are you arguing that Khorvairians should therefore be using junk rigs? A single woman can man a mid-sized vessel using a junk rig, and then maneuver it into a busy port using a scull oar. The same vessel using a square rig might require upwards of 8 men or so. If you add animate rope rigging on top of that, you could be dealing with a fully automated ship. Personally, I would go for Servant Horde. More customizable that way. Remember that animate rope doesn't actually allow the rope to move large distances or pull itself along. An unseen servant could do lots of things for you, including modifying the rigging. Finding a faster way to don or doff armor would also be a worthy goal. If a Cannith engineer could find a way to reduce the time it takes to put on chainmail or plate mail to rounds instead of minutes, he'd revolutionize military reaction time. A string of cantrips could create self-buckling straps, or a higher level spell could keep the armor in place without the need for straps at all. There's already an invention of that sort. In fact, all of the inventions I've posted already are in effect. This sort of armor is, I believe, "Calling Armor," or something of that sort. It uses a Summon effect to summon the armor around the wearer instantaneously.
Catastro 04-14-06, 10:41 PM	Seeing as how Eberron has a large middle class of skilled laborers, I think the printing press would be a necessary invention. It'd be pretty simple too; give a few unseen servants some pens and ink and they could copy books pretty quick. I think an important thing to keep in mind is: In Eberron, efficiency takes the backseat to coolness. Why place thousands of expensive conductor stones when you can get the same effect with cast iron and a fire elemental powered steam engine? Coz lightning power is cooler.
aelryinth 04-14-06, 11:08 PM	Just a note that Elemental Galleons and airships are SLOW. They travel what, 20 mph? They can actually be outrun by someone on a fast horse, over time. Ditto the lightning rail. And while Galleons are big, they are dwarfed by Ocean Liners. Ever seen a Tall Ship close up? A hundred, hundred fifty feet of ship isn't that big once you have to stand on it. Ocean Liners are 600+ feet...two hundred meters and more. And their top deck might ride higher then the mast of the Galleon. ===Aelryinth
Roxlimn 04-14-06, 11:31 PM	Ah. My bad. They travel fast compared to sailing ships of the Age of Sail, but not faster than modern ships. Travel by horse is actually pretty slow, both by practice and in the game. You use horses to bring more stuff along, not to travel faster. You could travel extremely light and have a string of horses every time the one under you drops dead, but I'm not certain that that's a very common means of traveling.
aelryinth 04-15-06, 05:14 AM	Ah. My bad. They travel fast compared to sailing ships of the Age of Sail, but not faster than modern ships. Travel by horse is actually pretty slow, both by practice and in the game. You use horses to bring more stuff along, not to travel faster. You could travel extremely light and have a string of horses every time the one under you drops dead, but I'm not certain that that's a very common means of traveling. No, it's not, but it does mean the Pony Express moves faster then the lightning rail...and if you happen to be mounted on VALENAR steeds, well, the Rail will probably seem pretty slow. Add in a touch of magic or three to keep your horse going... But true enough, without magic a horse can't possibly outlast a Rail, and probably only the best of Clipper ships with a favorable wind would compare to an Elemental Galleon. However, Elemental galleons basically do well because the wind is ALWAYS with them. In the short run, a caster with Gust of Wind can turn any small ship into one. Sure ain't hydrofoils tho...although you could probably turn a rowboat into one with a couple of decanters of endless water! ===Aelryinth
okaynowa 04-15-06, 12:48 PM	Edit: Removed even more of my preachy, veering-off-topic tangent about warforged. Using a junk rig instead of square rigs vastly improves on the manpower required, as well as making it safer and more maneuverable. This requires no magic whatsoever. Are you arguing that Khorvairians should therefore be using junk rigs? I'll confess that I'm a total landlubber. I was thinking that a simple spell that knots and moves ropes (animate rope doesn't, as you pointed out, but a version could be developed that does) could allow bigger or more complicated rigging systems to be controlled by ever fewer people. I had meant to suggest that cheap, low-level magic could make already existing systems that much more effecient. The "call armor" quality sounds familiar... can you quote a price for that effect? What I was aiming for with a simpler set of cantrips is a price factor less than +1, preferably down in the masterwork price range, to get the effect to as many consumers as possible.
Lokiyn 04-16-06, 03:06 AM	Since Eberronian items from then mainland are popular I think I’ll produce something for the southerners in the mountains. Given that the mountain kingdoms of the Kalashtar are in a near permanent siege ways to heat the vast mountain fortresses that guard the passes were devised. Since Magic as it was known to the main populous is uncommon in that region, the monks turned to what they had available, Psionics. ======================================== =============================== Material GeneratorYou see my friend, it doesn't have to last long, just long enough-Elder watchman explaining the system to a new recruit Produced by a shaper This device was originally considered a failure as the materials produced by it vanished after a span of time. However after stubbing his toe on a block of wood produced by the generator the shaper realized that while the material itself vanishes the Effects of the material remain. This realization proved a godsend to the citadels of the high reaches that spent a large portion of their income on heating and lighting the buildings. Since Psionics doesn't have the broad range of options that magic does this item fills a role by replacing a common substance, oil. The oil is piped from the supply pool all about the building; this of course means that the generator is placed as high as possible. The oil produced by this device disappears one hour after its creation; however it is normally put to use before that point. The oil is often used in heating, lighting and cooking and occasionally used to repel assaults in desperation.Faint Metacreativity; ML 1st; Craft Universal Item, Minor Creation, Creator must have at least 5 ranks in Craft(alchemy); Price 2,000 gp Cost to Create 1000gp and 80xp ; Weight 5 lb. ======================================== =============================== And now for the Crunch behind the item. The basic item is simply an unlimited use item of minor creation, Psionic which prices at 1x1x2000gp. This means that each use produces 1cu foot of oil or 49.8 pints per min, however for this item since its continual it produces 4.98 pints per round which comes to the same rate but at a continual flow. Now for reference the burn rate of oil lanterns (hooded) is 6 hours to 1 pint. So each hour a lantern consumes 1/6th of a pint of oil, each min it consumes 1/360th pint of oil and each round (1/3600th of a pint). So in theory this item will generate fuel for 17,939 lanterns in practice we can half that to account for piping. The system is self cleaning as oil unburned after an hour dissipates and is effectively infinite in fuel. Each additional manifester level in the item increases the amount by another cubic foot per min which increases the duration as well. Now let’s assume that a lanterns oil consumption increases as a function to the linear progression to its light Area. So we get the formula ((x^2)*Pi())/(900*PI())=N and O*N= BR Where X= Radius of light; O= Oil amount; N= exponent: and BR equals Rate of burn in Pints per Hour. So using this lets place a Beacon on the fortress to light up the territory around it to prevent sneak attacks So a standard Generator produces 2989 pints per hour or 4.98 per round as described above. The above formula states that a lantern burning enough fuel to light up a radius of 3990 feet burns 4.91 pints per round.
Roxlimn 04-16-06, 09:54 AM	okaynowa: Warforged are not devices: they are self-aware (Charisma score) thinking beings (Intelligence score). Alignments may be blurred in the Eberron setting, but Evil is still a measurable force, and exploiting an intelligent, self-aware creature isn't Good. Nor would a slave's ignorance of his situation absolve the overseer of criminal responsibility. I hope you will forgive me for refusing to hear any arguments on the defense of slavery as effecient, in this world or any other. Shrug. Your perception of slavery is colored by the history of American chattel slavery and the recent upsurge of indentured servitude. Not too long ago, both Spanish and American rulers imposed forced labor on my entire people, so please spare me the melodrama. Slavery can be beneficial and efficient, but that's a thread for the Mature Boards, and has been done to death there. Many people agree that it's not necessarily Evil by D&D standards and can even be Good. Not all forms of Slavery are as evil as modern indentured servitude or white slavery. To move away from that argument and stay on this one, what about considering a Dedicated Wright? It's a Construct, now, so it's not indepedent, nor is it free-thinking. It moves perpetually, still, so it's still mightily efficient - a perpetual motion machine incarnate. Even if the inventor were able to convince one warforged to commit to such a device, could he convince five? Could he convince twenty? With the official discontinuation of the creation forges, submissive warforged are not an increasing commodity. If a Cannith inventor is looking for something easily reproducible to take to market, he'd be better off looking for the next good simple spell than pinning his success on the cooperation of a warforged. Firstly, Warforged don't like to avoid work. They want something to do. They'll invent something to do just so they can do something. It's not that they're submissive. They're just fundamentally different from most living beings. They want different things out of life. With the end of the Last War, entire platoons of Warforged are getting drafted into Thrane, Breland, and Aundair as servants in one form or another. I rather think that a Warforged-powered device is quite timely. Secondly, Khorvaire isn't a free-market economy. A Cannith inventor doesn't get to keep his invention, or even claim rights to the inventing of it. It all goes to his family, and his family gives him whatever he needs. It's like France, only you kind of need to actually work. If Cannith brings anything new to the table, it will only be competing with itself, since it's the only fabricating economic power in its sphere. If a Cannith inventor brings anything to his superiors (not to market), it would probably be a device meant to strengthen the family's position. A cheaper way to make an existing device might be one innovation. A new weapon of war might be another. New industrial inventions are kept within the family. They might be extremely valuable, but it won't be flashy, and the inventor himself may or may not see any personal gain from it. I'll confess that I'm a total landlubber. I was thinking that a simple spell that knots and moves ropes (animate rope doesn't, as you pointed out, but a version could be developed that does) could allow bigger or more complicated rigging systems to be controlled by ever fewer people. I had meant to suggest that cheap, low-level magic could make already existing systems that much more effecient. Obviously, if a spell could do it and would be valuable, surely an ancient invention that's almost trivial to conceive of would be just as valuable? The "call armor" quality sounds familiar... can you quote a price for that effect? What I was aiming for with a simpler set of cantrips is a price factor less than +1, preferably down in the masterwork price range, to get the effect to as many consumers as possible. There wouldn't be a point to such a device. The armor itself is prohibitively expensive for most people. The main buyers of armors that require long stretches of time to put on are wealthy nobles or upper class individuals, and people like that usually have enough cash to spend for the "call armor" quality. Besides, if you used magic of any kind on an armor, it would have to be at least a gp mod or a + equivalent. +300 gp probably is never going to be fair.
okaynowa 04-16-06, 10:23 AM	Said Roxlimn:Using a junk rig instead of square rigs vastly improves on the manpower required, as well as making it safer and more maneuverable. This requires no magic whatsoever.But couldn't the addition of magic make the junk rig even better? That's all I'm after. And I apologize (again) for the melodrama. Like I said, it's a topic that gets me agitated. EDIT: I have deleted most of said melodramatic preaching on the grounds that it did not contribute positively to the topic at hand.
Roxlimn 04-18-06, 10:27 AM	okaynowa: Not materially. The brilliant thing about the junk rig was that it caught the wind no matter where it was blowing and which way you were heading. It's extremely hardy, easy to manufacture, maintain, and use, and quite handy. Many modern Western sailing enthusiasts prefer the junk rig for recreational purposes because it's just so easy to use and versatile. One sailing enthusiast sailed the Pacific on it and was completely hooked. However, you have magic, it completely changes things. One of the most elemental and powerful magics you can get is to get wind to blow into your sails pretty much 24/7. That obviates the use for any adjustable rigging of any sort, and is enough of an upgrade to make it probably the minimum anyone would want to get, if they were getting magic to sail a ship anyway (remember that a ship is itself a fairly expensive thing). All you need is you magic wheel or bag of winds, a square sail, and a good helmsman. Messing with the rigging just isn't worth it.
Rollo 04-19-06, 10:39 AM	Here are two items that I came up with recently... I am not sure on the creation stuff or the costs so if someone else wants to fill that stuff in here that would be cool. Cargo Pants: Take a pair of pants and put the smaller pockets from a Handy Haversack and attach them to the legs of the pants... that is fairly simple. Universal Traveling Papers: These papers come in a non-descript case. They take on the appearance of what ever traveling papers the holder is thinking of. They basically give you a forged document that can change at a moments notice. I am thinking that they give you a bonus to your bluff check or something… again I am not exactly sure on the details yet.
Elderich 04-20-06, 03:22 PM	Where we can get a magical item that can be utilized for the whole community, I think that is what Eberron “Mag-Tec” should be about. The problem with “Tec” in Eberron is the cost relative to how we think about tec in our lives. Magic, much like most “tec” during the early industrial revolution, is too expensive for the typical person, but not too expensive for the society as a whole. Thus magical items will need to have utility for the society as a whole. The lighting rail would never be a viable “Product” from a financial return on investment point of view, but it is an excellent achievement for a civilization, and has secondary effects that make it a worthy charitable investment. Take for example Lokiyns washing machine. While I can’t say the majority of people would pay 1cp/day, when they may only make 10 times that (1sp), they might pay 1c/week. So an Artificer knows a good widow with children and donates such a device to the family. Perhaps for the expected notoriety and good will? (My characters always do this kind of thing. Build up good will for when you need it.) The widow might take on clients, shuffling around the neighborhood all day picking up clothes and dropping them off. Perhaps the family might have a very small shop that also serves as the family home. The whole community can get clean and repaired clothes for a very small cost, and it goes to a good cause. So we have the “The Good Widow Dry Cleaning Service.” Perhaps an artificer could crank out the items and start a franchise of sorts. Find a good widow in a neighborhood and give them the “Dry cleaning” franchise for no up front cost for free and take 25% of the revenue? Sell it to the community at large as a “better for society” donation on your part? On the other end of the scale, you have what one of my party is thinking of doing. They want to build a “team vehicle” of some sort. They are currently toying with a Huge gold dragon effigy with a few speed enhancements. It is planned to have a copula with continuous reduce person and shrink item. The problem is cost. So they are thinking of entering it in the Sharn races to make some cash back from the original investment. If they can make a good showing they may start a business selling them to clients who can afford the 200,000 Gp. Then they started thinking about a speed record. How fast can they go? If they can get to a speed of 1300ft they can see if there is a speed of sound in Eberron.
aelryinth 04-20-06, 08:31 PM	Since Eberronian items from then mainland are popular I think I’ll produce something for the southerners in the mountains. Given that the mountain kingdoms of the Kalashtar are in a near permanent siege ways to heat the vast mountain fortresses that guard the passes were devised. Since Magic as it was known to the main populous is uncommon in that region, the monks turned to what they had available, Psionics. ======================================== =============================== Material GeneratorYou see my friend, it doesn't have to last long, just long enough-Elder watchman explaining the system to a new recruit Produced by a shaper This device was originally considered a failure as the materials produced by it vanished after a span of time. However after stubbing his toe on a block of wood produced by the generator the shaper realized that while the material itself vanishes the Effects of the material remain. This realization proved a godsend to the citadels of the high reaches that spent a large portion of their income on heating and lighting the buildings. Since Psionics doesn't have the broad range of options that magic does this item fills a role by replacing a common substance, oil. The oil is piped from the supply pool all about the building; this of course means that the generator is placed as high as possible. The oil produced by this device disappears one hour after its creation; however it is normally put to use before that point. The oil is often used in heating, lighting and cooking and occasionally used to repel assaults in desperation.Faint Metacreativity; ML 1st; Craft Universal Item, Minor Creation, Creator must have at least 5 ranks in Craft(alchemy); Price 2,000 gp Cost to Create 1000gp and 80xp ; Weight 5 lb. ======================================== =============================== And now for the Crunch behind the item. The basic item is simply an unlimited use item of minor creation, Psionic which prices at 1x1x2000gp. This means that each use produces 1cu foot of oil or 49.8 pints per min, however for this item since its continual it produces 4.98 pints per round which comes to the same rate but at a continual flow. Now for reference the burn rate of oil lanterns (hooded) is 6 hours to 1 pint. So each hour a lantern consumes 1/6th of a pint of oil, each min it consumes 1/360th pint of oil and each round (1/3600th of a pint). So in theory this item will generate fuel for 17,939 lanterns in practice we can half that to account for piping. The system is self cleaning as oil unburned after an hour dissipates and is effectively infinite in fuel. Each additional manifester level in the item increases the amount by another cubic foot per min which increases the duration as well. Now let’s assume that a lanterns oil consumption increases as a function to the linear progression to its light Area. So we get the formula ((x^2)*Pi())/(900*PI())=N and O*N= BR Where X= Radius of light; O= Oil amount; N= exponent: and BR equals Rate of burn in Pints per Hour. So using this lets place a Beacon on the fortress to light up the territory around it to prevent sneak attacks So a standard Generator produces 2989 pints per hour or 4.98 per round as described above. The above formula states that a lantern burning enough fuel to light up a radius of 3990 feet burns 4.91 pints per round. You have a simple fallacy here in that you went right to the worst guidelines for item creation...the gp/cost rules. The first thing you go to is a similar item. This is in effect a Generator of Endless Oil, and should be compared to a Decanter of Endless Water. As you said, the duration of the oil is meaningless...it gets used up first. Therefore, a simple comparison to the value of water would force you to at least double the price...the lack of a geyser or spray option makes this viable, since you can also set this alight. I'd tag this device at a minimum value of 18,000 gp, twice that of a decanter, by the preeminent Item comparison rule. Clever toy, however, and probably well worth the making! ===Aelryinth
Kamikaze Chicken 04-21-06, 08:43 PM	I feel ignored... i tried my best to provide somethign fitting the criteria.. can i get some feed back on my feeble attempt at magi-tec? If i do i might try again for even more inventions! KAMIKAZE! :chicken: not :turkey:
aelryinth 04-22-06, 12:25 AM	They were fine, Kamikaze...fit the tone perfectly...single or low usage, or low power, hopefully cheap to make. No comments because they slid right in:) ==Aelryinth
yossarius 04-22-06, 11:29 PM	1. Sailing ships that require smaller crews, as every strand of rope is permenently animated (1st level spell each) so that they only need to be commanded to pull or release as needed. 2. Gloves of Shocking Grasp (1st level spell) used for electroplating metals. 3. Sewer pipes enchanted with Purify Food & Drink (cleric orison) for instand water reclamation. 4. Chest of Gentle Repose (2nd level cleric spell) as a magical refrigerator. 5. Instead of stone elemental-powered bulldozer for digging mines, how about a few pairs of Brooms of Stone Shape (3rd level cleric spell)? No muscle power needed to dig, just brush rock aside casually. 6. Gears of any machine imaginable turned by Mage Hand (Wizard cantrip). 7. Crop growth enhanced with wand of Plant Growth (3rd level druid spell). 8. Mass produced Spam-like meat using Stone to Flesh (6th level wizard spell) on normal pillar of stone. I estimate that one casting of Stone to Flesh would yeild 3,300 lbs of meat (boneless, too). You could probably sell mystery meat to the masses for 2 sp per pound, making the whole 70 cubic foot cylinder of meat worth about 660 gp. (Sorry if anyone was eating while reading this idea.) 9. Miners using Locate Object (2nd level wizrd spell) to find veins of gold, mithral, gems, etc. 10. Arcane Eye combines with Major Image as a combination video camera and monitor. That's all I could think of on the spot.
Theogre 04-23-06, 04:39 AM	Great thread BTW. Might I recommend looking back at Fun With Prestidigitation out of the Tome and Blood. A lot of very creative stuff can be done with low level spells and low cost. Below is my humble attempt at a glimpse of Wide Magic living. Leo leaned over to drink from a Water Fountain(1) making note of the shiny ring welded to the end of the spout as the cool, pure water touched his lips. He remembered during the last war when a saboteur had poisoned the central water supply of the stadium, hundreds of people died that day. Now all the fountains were capped with rings that purified the water right before you drank it. Standing up he watched as a group of shifters swarmed over the framework of the House Cannith display they were dismantling. They sweat in the oppressive heat of the late afternoon Brelish sun. Looking down at his OPS (Orien Package Service) uniform he was thankful for its ability to keep him comfortable. He had to buy the Endure Elements enchantment himself, but on days like this it was worth every Galifar. Besides, he’d had this same uniform for almost 30 years. Regular use of his Mending Patch(2) and hanging it nightly in the Cleaning Closet(3) kept the colors and cloth of the uniform almost as if it were new. The shadow of a sky coach crane passed over the stadium floor and came to a stop next to the shifters. Four animated ropes came dangling down from the crane above and wrapped themselves around the display rigging and quickly tied themselves off. As the rigging rose Leo’s eyes followed it’s path up towards the crane operator seated under the hull, his hands deftly controlling levers as he already had the crane moving up and away. Whether the operator was showing off or in a hurry, he was good, acquiring the ungainly object in a matter of moments. That being the last of the big items to be craned out, the immense retractable frosted glass roof started silently closing(4) . Stomach growling Leo decides it best to grab a bite to eat now, before Cora shut down, he has some time. It will be a while before the merchants have their wears packed up, ready to ship back home. Today was the last day of M3 the Magewright, Magic and Mechanics show. Leo had always been somewhat of a gadget guy and volunteered every year for the late shift of this show. He got to see all the new toys and vendors often would give the last of their freebies to him and sometimes their demo items, rather than pay to have them shipped back. There are many neat things out there but usually only businesses or the wealthy can afford the more frivolous things. Glancing at his Parcel Cart(5) , Leo smiled at the few items on it, next to his OPS Signature Board(6) were some trinkets he had already been given, it was going to be a good day. Grasping the handle of his cart, triggering it to float up, Leo started down the stairs towards the Carnivore Corner, cheerfully whistling a nonsense tune. The shifter foreman lopes by on his way to one of the cool drink dispensers(7) along the wall and inserts a coin, retrieving a drink. A moving silent image on the dispenser’s front panel repeats a scene of a common enough fellow surrounded by attractive women enjoying an Aundarian Mount & Moon beverage. The shifter tips his head back chugging the drink, when finished he blows a kiss to one of the female images and lets out a satisfied belch as a few of the papers strewn around the floor start stirring. A moment later he joins the other laborers in a raucous cheer as the stadium’s cooling system (8) is turned on. Cora, a perky halfling of House Ghallanda, is the proprietor of the Carnivore Corner which specializes in, you guessed it, meats. She prepares everything from the standard “meats on a stick” and burgers to steaks and specialty meats for the private box attendees of the stadium. As this was part of Leo’s regular route, he had gotten to know Cora over the years. Most restaurants use the much cheaper frost chests (9) to freeze their meats. All House Ghallanda establishments are equipped with and have their meats shipped in the much more expensive, Ghallandan Meat Lockers(10). These special meat lockers keep the meat as fresh as can be, for as long as needed, with out having to freeze it. With the ability to keep rare specialty meats on hand and fresh indefinitely, it’s no wonder Ghallandan establishments are widely sought after. Leo sees that Cora is just about done scrapping the grill. Finishing one last pass with the Grill Scraper(11), the grill is left spotless. Cora looks up and smiles wiping her hands clean on her ever-present apron (12) she asks if he would like something and he begs off, seeing that she’s already cleaned up. She tells him not to worry. As she flips a switch Leo can see the waves of heat as the Grill (13) heats back up in a matter of moments. After a satisfying meal and a long but enjoyable night chatting with Cora and collecting last minute packages from the show’s the vendors, Leo is finally finished for the night. Leo Steps from the Arcanely Cooled building to the wall of thick hot air that is a hot Sharn evening. The doors open & close automatically to keep in the A/C. Leo closes and locks (14) the back of the OPS Delivery Carriage (15) he has been driving for almost thirty years. By this time it is long dark and Leo adjusts the ever-bright bulls-eye lanterns mounted on the carriage before pulling out a pipe and lighter (16). With aromatic tobacco wafting into the warm night breeze, Leo inserts a different key which unlocks the carriage wheels and triggers the summoning of the carriage’s propulsion. The conjured horse gives a shake and whiny as Leo starts them down the street. (1) The water fountains and washrooms are supplied from a central water supply room at the top of the stadium with tanks that cool and heat Prestidigitation (Lvl0) (Heat & Cool),the water respectively. These central tanks are filled from a single Decanter of Endless Water (2) Mending Patch – Mending (Lvl0) as the spell once per week. (3) Cleaning Closet - Prestidigitation (clean), a common household appliance of the upper middle class these wardrobes can clean a large volume of clothes, shoes and even dishware (drawers). Although steps must be taken to remove wrinkles. (4) Retractable Roof - Animate Rope (Lvl1) and Grease Lvl1) make for smooth, quiet operation of this weighty covering. (5) Parcel Cart - Flat “warehouse” cart mounted on a use-activated Tensor’s Floating Disc. The cart allows for travel up and down stairs and over muddy streets etc. Commonly used by OPS, KSPS (Khorvairian Sivis Postal Service) carriers and warehouse workers. (6) Signature Board – Amanuensis (Lvl1) Copies text information from package labels, later the information is sent via house Sivis to the OPS central office for billing and tracking purposes. (7) Cool Drink Dispenser – Prestidigitation (Lvl0 cool), Silent Image (Lvl1) advertisement, and Detect Metal (Lvl1) (coin acceptance) (8) Stadium Cooling System Darsson’s Cooling Breeze (Lvl1) Shining South pg45 (9) Frost Chest – Ray of Frost (Lvl1) (10) Ghallandan Meat Lockers – Gentle Repose (Lvl2) (11) Grill Scraper - Prestidigitation (Lvl0 clean) (12) Chef’s Apron - Prestidigitation (Lvl0 clean & dry) (13) Grill – Heat Metal (Lvl2) (14) Lock – Arcane Seal (Lvl3) Sharn: City of Towers pg168 (15) OPS Delivery Carrieage - Arcane Seal (Lvl3) and Mount (Lvl1) (16) Lighter - Prestidigitation (Lvl0)(Thumb Flame) Keep the Ideas Coming. What could some of those "Demo Items" be?
Kreistor1 04-23-06, 01:27 PM	A couple of comments have arisen in this thread about feedback. So far this has been a thread for the presentation of ideas, not the debating of the applicability of other ideas. So, good or bad, most are not debating the utility of invention, but respecting instead that a thread for the presentation of ideas means not discussing the validity of those ideas. Basically, no one is going to risk telling you bad things about your ideas so that the creativity continues to flow unhindered. One of the oldest examples of this sort of thing come from the Merry Melodies team behind Bugs Bunny and co. They had sit down creation meetings where no one was allowed to tell anyone anything bad about their suggestions. Only creative thought was allowed to be presented. You could present modifified versions of other peoples' ideas, but not demand that the previous presenter was wrong or the idea not funny. It was after those meetings that a core group plucked the best ideas out and created the storyboard. This thread is much like that. Don't expect feedback, since it can stifle the creativity that this thread was created to promote, as well as lead to off-topic diversion and flamewar.
aelryinth 04-23-06, 11:14 PM	Slightly different scenario. Everyone loves feedback. Theogre: Not sure if animate rope has the strength to do what you want it to do. I like the difference between a freezer and a meat locker. The latter keeps stuff infinitely fresh..the other keeps it cold to preserve it. The Tenser's Floating Cart is probably extremely expensive...you'd have to use a Flying Carpet as the guidelines for it. that's one heck of an expensive signature board. given the slant for forgery, I'd probably say such a thing would be restricted to scribes and have some sort of restriction on it for usage. Otherwise, marvelous usage of how endemic magic can get around...just need to up the standard income by a factor of 10 so people can afford these! (not a slam against you). ===Aelryinth
Theogre 04-24-06, 02:13 AM	Kreistor1 - Good point. I did notice this thread was uncommonly polite and positive, bravo all. Aelryinth - I do appreciate your comments as I did request feed back Other ideas: Trash Collector (Vacuum) based on Prestidigitation (Gather or Whirlwind) Silent Image / Programed Image "Billboards"