House Thuranni vs Law Enforcement [Archive] - Wizards Community

House Thuranni vs Law Enforcement [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
drss
02-09-05, 07:00 AM I was thinking about a scenario to run when this occured to me. This is not so much a question of running a game, but about Eberron's world view in general:

An assassination was committed. The Watch or an Inqusitive or some other law enforcement unit is assigned to investigate. But this crime was committed by House Thuranni agents.

Being elite professionals in this field of work, such assassinations would be difficult for law enforcement to handle. First, an investigator have to trace it to House Thuranni, assuming the investigator know about House Thuranni's dark dealings. But even if he somehow managed this, Thuranni is not officially involved in such dealings, it isnt public knowledge, which means the house is not officially liable to the investigator's accusations. To attach this crime on them would require the house's shadowy work be exposed first, right? But then, that is near impossible. Even if he manages to survive this investigation without being "silenced", it is highly unlikely he can beat the large organization.

This implies that hiring Thuranni to kill is going to be clean. Since law enforcement obviously arent equiped to deal with this. Even if someone found out about the crime, it wont hold in the court of law, since "House Thuranni have assassination services" is just an paranoid urban legend.

What do you think? Can the great Houses really hold that degree of power?
Ricohard_Draconis
02-09-05, 07:02 AM yes...

but remember that law enforcement isn't going to be thuranni's only problem. The other houses have just as much power and can use it if thuranni tries to push itself too far, a law unto themselves as it were.
Cloud Divider
02-09-05, 08:45 AM I was thinking about a scenario to run when this occured to me. This is not so much a question of running a game, but about Eberron's world view in general:

An assassination was committed. The Watch or an Inqusitive or some other law enforcement unit is assigned to investigate. But this crime was committed by House Thuranni agents.

Being elite professionals in this field of work, such assassinations would be difficult for law enforcement to handle. First, an investigator have to trace it to House Thuranni, assuming the investigator know about House Thuranni's dark dealings. But even if he somehow managed this, Thuranni is not officially involved in such dealings, it isnt public knowledge, which means the house is not officially liable to the investigator's accusations. To attach this crime on them would require the house's shadowy work be exposed first, right? But then, that is near impossible. Even if he manages to survive this investigation without being "silenced", it is highly unlikely he can beat the large organization.
Yes, while I'd expect the investigation into a Thuranni assassination would run into it's fair share of hurdles. That said...

I doubt any investigator would be "silenced," in the permanent sense, except in particularly unique circumstances. It could potentially draw even more attention to have a Knight of the Citadel (or the whatchamacallem's that have extranational policing duties - the Khorvairian FBI, as it were) who was clearly investigating the Thuranni.

However, there's nothing to say he couldn't be "silenced" in less lethal ways. He could be discredited, blackmailed, or just influenced by his superiors (...who were leaned on by Thuranni or the local government's political arm).

This implies that hiring Thuranni to kill is going to be clean. Since law enforcement obviously arent equiped to deal with this. Even if someone found out about the crime, it wont hold in the court of law, since "House Thuranni have assassination services" is just an paranoid urban legend.
Maybe. I think if a particular assassination was botched in such a way as to clearly implicate Thuranni (or the repercussions became too difficult), you might see some scapegoating going on.

Plus, Thuranni may be Khorvairian government's "dirty little secret." None of them will generally investigate Thuranni, because they _all_ use the Thuranni.

Granted, there's always the potential for political fallout being too great and causing problems, but again, it'd likely result in scapegoats and token penalties against Thuranni.

Plus, I don't think hiring a Thuranni assassin is very easy; Average Joe probably couldn't walk up and say "My wife's cheating on me with this dude. Wax him!" I mean, that's the kind of stuff you'd go hire some Daask gnolls for or something.

Even a wealthy marked heir or noble would probably have his "job" studied before any action is taken, and it'd likely be denied that any contact or information was exchanged between the two parties (else Thuranni could always hold said records as blackmail against the "hirer").

Of course, what that means is that if the Thuranni shows up on your doorstep, you can be assured that you've managed to tick off the VERY wrong person - someone with REAL power and influence.

What do you think? Can the great Houses really hold that degree of power?
I don't think it's unreasonable. But I do think that Thuranni DOES have to pay attention to what they do in order to maintain their "neutrality." So there can definitely be repercussions, but they'd largely not be of the legal variety.
Kid SixXx
02-09-05, 09:20 AM but remember that law enforcement isn't going to be thuranni's only problem. The other houses have just as much power and can use it if thuranni tries to push itself too far, a law unto themselves as it were.

Indeed.

I often run the House Thuranni much like the Morag Tong is run in the game, Elder Scrolls: Morrowind. House Thuranni agents are contracted in secret by certain parties to perform discreet terminations.

The assassin is given a writ that he will present to law enforcement should he be discovered which states that the assassination s being carried out under the auspices of the House and with the blessing of local government, but naturally the assassin will do his best to neutralize his mark and remain undetected.

Certainly the House will carry out shady assassinations, but in my game, the bread & butter "mysterious disappearances" are what pays the bills for the House.
Thyrwyn
02-09-05, 10:22 AM While Kid SixXx's solution is workable, I find it unlikely given that Thuranni's activities are still the "stuff of urban legend," as it were. In order for such writs to be accepted, the knowledge that they existed would have to be common knowledge. I also doubt that any of the governments are willing to openly allow murder and assassination by anyone, especially by a splinter house that is less than 50 years old.

That said.

The first thing any investigator is going be concerned with is the person(s) who actually performed the killing. Should the investigator be able to prove (or come close to proving) that the killer(s) were part of House Thuranni, then there are several possible outcomes:

a) said killer(s) may well turn up dead or simply disappear - punished by the house for being sloppy. Of course, the House then disavows any knowledge of their activities or of the circumstances surrounding their untimely demise/disappearance.

b) There is at least someone with jurisdiction over the crime that is aware of Thuranni's shadowy services and may have used them in the past (or may want to in the future). Said someone may exert their influence over the inquisitive and get them to drop the investigation ("You have been re-assigned: it's been taken care of"). They then work out a fine/punishment with Thuranni (probably for information or other shadowy services). Thuranni may even initiate this parley should the inquisitive get too close. Thuranni may still punish their agents for being sloppy (see 'a' above).

c) Even if the person(s) responsible can be identified as members of the House, you still need to prove that the House itself ordered the hit - and that will not be easy. Even then, you could just extend 'a' above to include the Thuranni handler who gave the order, and the House itself maintains plausible deniability.

d) It is unlikely that "conspiracy to commit murder" is actually defined by any of the legal codes, which isn't to say that the authorities won't frown upon it or try to exact some punishment from the guilty party(s). Once the killer(s) are identified (even if they cannot be found), the authorities may be much more interested in learning who hired Thuranni. Thuranni needs to preserve at least the reputation that they could ensure confidentiality, so they certainly aren't telling. Finding this out would be really tough. In the end, even if the employer is discovered any 'punishment' would be handled outside of the court system (since they haven't broken any laws).

I see any of the above as possible and each may be more or less probable depending on the importance of the victim.
Kid SixXx
02-09-05, 10:51 AM While Kid SixXx's solution is workable, I find it unlikely given that Thuranni's activities are still the "stuff of urban legend," as it were. In order for such writs to be accepted, the knowledge that they existed would have to be common knowledge.

True indeed. Such matters are dependant on your interpretation.

Personally, I took the passage suggesting "urban legend" and equated it with the mysticism that surrounded groups like the Thugee, the ninja of feudal Japan, or even the Tonton Macoute of Haiti, or the Mau Mau of Kenya. The Thugee were supposed to be immune to knives, the ninja were supposed to be able to fly or walk on water, and so forth.

These groups were either so superb or so brutal in their tactics that people often built folklore around the groups which exaggerated their abilities. Arguably, most of the folklore surrounding the groups were probably iniated as propaganda by the groups themselves. A smart tactic indeed, as a healthy reputation coupled by natural fear of the unknown can be used to your advantage.

I'm not sure how much mysticism can actually be used in the case of House Thuranni. Most of their mystical qualities they have would certainly be attributed to dragonmarks at best, or regular magic at worst, and both of those ideals are fairly common knowledge in Eberron. That being the case, it stands to reason that the activies of House Thuranni are probably generally known, but are spoken about only in whispers lest you draw their attention.

At worst, HT deeds would be the subject of gossip and random speculation, which is probably the way they'd prefer it to be.

The higher enclaves of political power are probably very aware of what House Thuranni offers, and even they are wary of HT, as the assassin you contract today may be the one that kills you tomorrow.
drss
02-09-05, 05:58 PM Simply put, the street level (lower on the echelon of political power) law enforcement, or even the court system, are helpless against the house(s). As a friend of family of the victim, to get any justice (if they know or suspected someone hired HT), they may need to deal with this outside of the law system. Perhaps hire someone from Deneith to investigate and someone else (perhaps HT) to carry out the "punishment"?

Without brining in someone from another House (so if HT presses the issue, they'll pit themselves directly against another house), it would be difficult to do anything.

((Eberron is argueably a cyberpunk setting that is set within the framework of fantasy. The themes are all there. No wonder I like it so much.)
Cloud Divider
02-10-05, 02:59 PM Simply put, the street level (lower on the echelon of political power) law enforcement, or even the court system, are helpless against the house(s). As a friend of family of the victim, to get any justice (if they know or suspected someone hired HT), they may need to deal with this outside of the law system. Perhaps hire someone from Deneith to investigate and someone else (perhaps HT) to carry out the "punishment"?
...Which to me sounds like where the PC's step into the picture.

Without brining in someone from another House (so if HT presses the issue, they'll pit themselves directly against another house), it would be difficult to do anything.
And even then, I don't know if bringing in someone from another House (or a Noble) would necessarily make a difference. Hiring a Deneith marked Master Inquisitive still probably would meet with similar results (his Deneith leadership may tell him to cool off, if they value friendly relations with Thuranni), else "discover" planted clues directing him to a sacrificial scapegoat...

Deneith seriously going after Thuranni could potentially incite another War of the Mark. Which could certainly be interesting in it's large-scale implications.

Perhaps this Thuranni assassination of someone of marginal importance turns out to be the "Archduke Ferdinand" that starts The Next War...which starts out as just Deneith vs. Thuranni...but then maybe the other Houses start taking sides (or take the opportunity as an excuse to take pot-shots at their enemies). The Houses go first, and the Nations fall in later...

((Eberron is argueably a cyberpunk setting that is set within the framework of fantasy. The themes are all there. No wonder I like it so much.)
Definitely agreed. While I was never fond of the modern setting injected with fantasy (Shadowrun), I'm really enjoying the fantasy setting injected with the modern that is Eberron.

And on some level, when it comes to planning, I really am sort of looking at the Dragonmarked Houses as essentially the Megacorporations of Eberron. Granted, it's not quite the same, because in most cases the House strengths and areas of interest don't overlap too much. But it's more than enough to work from.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
drss 02-09-05, 07:00 AM	I was thinking about a scenario to run when this occured to me. This is not so much a question of running a game, but about Eberron's world view in general: An assassination was committed. The Watch or an Inqusitive or some other law enforcement unit is assigned to investigate. But this crime was committed by House Thuranni agents. Being elite professionals in this field of work, such assassinations would be difficult for law enforcement to handle. First, an investigator have to trace it to House Thuranni, assuming the investigator know about House Thuranni's dark dealings. But even if he somehow managed this, Thuranni is not officially involved in such dealings, it isnt public knowledge, which means the house is not officially liable to the investigator's accusations. To attach this crime on them would require the house's shadowy work be exposed first, right? But then, that is near impossible. Even if he manages to survive this investigation without being "silenced", it is highly unlikely he can beat the large organization. This implies that hiring Thuranni to kill is going to be clean. Since law enforcement obviously arent equiped to deal with this. Even if someone found out about the crime, it wont hold in the court of law, since "House Thuranni have assassination services" is just an paranoid urban legend. What do you think? Can the great Houses really hold that degree of power?
Ricohard_Draconis 02-09-05, 07:02 AM	yes... but remember that law enforcement isn't going to be thuranni's only problem. The other houses have just as much power and can use it if thuranni tries to push itself too far, a law unto themselves as it were.
Cloud Divider 02-09-05, 08:45 AM	I was thinking about a scenario to run when this occured to me. This is not so much a question of running a game, but about Eberron's world view in general: An assassination was committed. The Watch or an Inqusitive or some other law enforcement unit is assigned to investigate. But this crime was committed by House Thuranni agents. Being elite professionals in this field of work, such assassinations would be difficult for law enforcement to handle. First, an investigator have to trace it to House Thuranni, assuming the investigator know about House Thuranni's dark dealings. But even if he somehow managed this, Thuranni is not officially involved in such dealings, it isnt public knowledge, which means the house is not officially liable to the investigator's accusations. To attach this crime on them would require the house's shadowy work be exposed first, right? But then, that is near impossible. Even if he manages to survive this investigation without being "silenced", it is highly unlikely he can beat the large organization. Yes, while I'd expect the investigation into a Thuranni assassination would run into it's fair share of hurdles. That said... I doubt any investigator would be "silenced," in the permanent sense, except in particularly unique circumstances. It could potentially draw even more attention to have a Knight of the Citadel (or the whatchamacallem's that have extranational policing duties - the Khorvairian FBI, as it were) who was clearly investigating the Thuranni. However, there's nothing to say he couldn't be "silenced" in less lethal ways. He could be discredited, blackmailed, or just influenced by his superiors (...who were leaned on by Thuranni or the local government's political arm). This implies that hiring Thuranni to kill is going to be clean. Since law enforcement obviously arent equiped to deal with this. Even if someone found out about the crime, it wont hold in the court of law, since "House Thuranni have assassination services" is just an paranoid urban legend. Maybe. I think if a particular assassination was botched in such a way as to clearly implicate Thuranni (or the repercussions became too difficult), you might see some scapegoating going on. Plus, Thuranni may be Khorvairian government's "dirty little secret." None of them will generally investigate Thuranni, because they _all_ use the Thuranni. Granted, there's always the potential for political fallout being too great and causing problems, but again, it'd likely result in scapegoats and token penalties against Thuranni. Plus, I don't think hiring a Thuranni assassin is very easy; Average Joe probably couldn't walk up and say "My wife's cheating on me with this dude. Wax him!" I mean, that's the kind of stuff you'd go hire some Daask gnolls for or something. Even a wealthy marked heir or noble would probably have his "job" studied before any action is taken, and it'd likely be denied that any contact or information was exchanged between the two parties (else Thuranni could always hold said records as blackmail against the "hirer"). Of course, what that means is that if the Thuranni shows up on your doorstep, you can be assured that you've managed to tick off the VERY wrong person - someone with REAL power and influence. What do you think? Can the great Houses really hold that degree of power? I don't think it's unreasonable. But I do think that Thuranni DOES have to pay attention to what they do in order to maintain their "neutrality." So there can definitely be repercussions, but they'd largely not be of the legal variety.
Kid SixXx 02-09-05, 09:20 AM	but remember that law enforcement isn't going to be thuranni's only problem. The other houses have just as much power and can use it if thuranni tries to push itself too far, a law unto themselves as it were. Indeed. I often run the House Thuranni much like the Morag Tong is run in the game, Elder Scrolls: Morrowind. House Thuranni agents are contracted in secret by certain parties to perform discreet terminations. The assassin is given a writ that he will present to law enforcement should he be discovered which states that the assassination s being carried out under the auspices of the House and with the blessing of local government, but naturally the assassin will do his best to neutralize his mark and remain undetected. Certainly the House will carry out shady assassinations, but in my game, the bread & butter "mysterious disappearances" are what pays the bills for the House.
Thyrwyn 02-09-05, 10:22 AM	While Kid SixXx's solution is workable, I find it unlikely given that Thuranni's activities are still the "stuff of urban legend," as it were. In order for such writs to be accepted, the knowledge that they existed would have to be common knowledge. I also doubt that any of the governments are willing to openly allow murder and assassination by anyone, especially by a splinter house that is less than 50 years old. That said. The first thing any investigator is going be concerned with is the person(s) who actually performed the killing. Should the investigator be able to prove (or come close to proving) that the killer(s) were part of House Thuranni, then there are several possible outcomes: a) said killer(s) may well turn up dead or simply disappear - punished by the house for being sloppy. Of course, the House then disavows any knowledge of their activities or of the circumstances surrounding their untimely demise/disappearance. b) There is at least someone with jurisdiction over the crime that is aware of Thuranni's shadowy services and may have used them in the past (or may want to in the future). Said someone may exert their influence over the inquisitive and get them to drop the investigation ("You have been re-assigned: it's been taken care of"). They then work out a fine/punishment with Thuranni (probably for information or other shadowy services). Thuranni may even initiate this parley should the inquisitive get too close. Thuranni may still punish their agents for being sloppy (see 'a' above). c) Even if the person(s) responsible can be identified as members of the House, you still need to prove that the House itself ordered the hit - and that will not be easy. Even then, you could just extend 'a' above to include the Thuranni handler who gave the order, and the House itself maintains plausible deniability. d) It is unlikely that "conspiracy to commit murder" is actually defined by any of the legal codes, which isn't to say that the authorities won't frown upon it or try to exact some punishment from the guilty party(s). Once the killer(s) are identified (even if they cannot be found), the authorities may be much more interested in learning who hired Thuranni. Thuranni needs to preserve at least the reputation that they could ensure confidentiality, so they certainly aren't telling. Finding this out would be really tough. In the end, even if the employer is discovered any 'punishment' would be handled outside of the court system (since they haven't broken any laws). I see any of the above as possible and each may be more or less probable depending on the importance of the victim.
Kid SixXx 02-09-05, 10:51 AM	While Kid SixXx's solution is workable, I find it unlikely given that Thuranni's activities are still the "stuff of urban legend," as it were. In order for such writs to be accepted, the knowledge that they existed would have to be common knowledge. True indeed. Such matters are dependant on your interpretation. Personally, I took the passage suggesting "urban legend" and equated it with the mysticism that surrounded groups like the Thugee, the ninja of feudal Japan, or even the Tonton Macoute of Haiti, or the Mau Mau of Kenya. The Thugee were supposed to be immune to knives, the ninja were supposed to be able to fly or walk on water, and so forth. These groups were either so superb or so brutal in their tactics that people often built folklore around the groups which exaggerated their abilities. Arguably, most of the folklore surrounding the groups were probably iniated as propaganda by the groups themselves. A smart tactic indeed, as a healthy reputation coupled by natural fear of the unknown can be used to your advantage. I'm not sure how much mysticism can actually be used in the case of House Thuranni. Most of their mystical qualities they have would certainly be attributed to dragonmarks at best, or regular magic at worst, and both of those ideals are fairly common knowledge in Eberron. That being the case, it stands to reason that the activies of House Thuranni are probably generally known, but are spoken about only in whispers lest you draw their attention. At worst, HT deeds would be the subject of gossip and random speculation, which is probably the way they'd prefer it to be. The higher enclaves of political power are probably very aware of what House Thuranni offers, and even they are wary of HT, as the assassin you contract today may be the one that kills you tomorrow.
drss 02-09-05, 05:58 PM	Simply put, the street level (lower on the echelon of political power) law enforcement, or even the court system, are helpless against the house(s). As a friend of family of the victim, to get any justice (if they know or suspected someone hired HT), they may need to deal with this outside of the law system. Perhaps hire someone from Deneith to investigate and someone else (perhaps HT) to carry out the "punishment"? Without brining in someone from another House (so if HT presses the issue, they'll pit themselves directly against another house), it would be difficult to do anything. ((Eberron is argueably a cyberpunk setting that is set within the framework of fantasy. The themes are all there. No wonder I like it so much.)
Cloud Divider 02-10-05, 02:59 PM	Simply put, the street level (lower on the echelon of political power) law enforcement, or even the court system, are helpless against the house(s). As a friend of family of the victim, to get any justice (if they know or suspected someone hired HT), they may need to deal with this outside of the law system. Perhaps hire someone from Deneith to investigate and someone else (perhaps HT) to carry out the "punishment"? ...Which to me sounds like where the PC's step into the picture. Without brining in someone from another House (so if HT presses the issue, they'll pit themselves directly against another house), it would be difficult to do anything. And even then, I don't know if bringing in someone from another House (or a Noble) would necessarily make a difference. Hiring a Deneith marked Master Inquisitive still probably would meet with similar results (his Deneith leadership may tell him to cool off, if they value friendly relations with Thuranni), else "discover" planted clues directing him to a sacrificial scapegoat... Deneith seriously going after Thuranni could potentially incite another War of the Mark. Which could certainly be interesting in it's large-scale implications. Perhaps this Thuranni assassination of someone of marginal importance turns out to be the "Archduke Ferdinand" that starts The Next War...which starts out as just Deneith vs. Thuranni...but then maybe the other Houses start taking sides (or take the opportunity as an excuse to take pot-shots at their enemies). The Houses go first, and the Nations fall in later... ((Eberron is argueably a cyberpunk setting that is set within the framework of fantasy. The themes are all there. No wonder I like it so much.) Definitely agreed. While I was never fond of the modern setting injected with fantasy (Shadowrun), I'm really enjoying the fantasy setting injected with the modern that is Eberron. And on some level, when it comes to planning, I really am sort of looking at the Dragonmarked Houses as essentially the Megacorporations of Eberron. Granted, it's not quite the same, because in most cases the House strengths and areas of interest don't overlap too much. But it's more than enough to work from.