Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Edymnion 12-29-04, 08:41 PM	After really reading the background for the Blood of Vol, and really thinking about it, I've pretty much come to the conclusion that this is the greatest injustice presented to us in Eberron. 2,600 years ago, House Vol attempts to put an end to the constant wars between elves and dragons, to bring peace to the land. To do this, they chose to essentially marry the two races together, to bring forth an individual that could relate to both sides, and be the figurehead for peace. However, the plan for peace backfired, and both sides were so outraged that they stormed the House, and began mercilessly slaughtering innocents in their fury. Erandis's mother, fearing for the life of her child, was forced into a drastic choice, the only way to save her daughter was to kill her. So, Erandis d'Vol was made into a lich, and through this undeath, she survived the unwarrented slaughter of her entire family. Who were murdered for trying to bring peace to the land. Now, Erandis tries to find some vestige of her murdered family, and to restore her House to the position that was so wrongfully taken from it. She's directing bloodlines in a desperate attempt to discover some trace of her family, a long lost brother or sister to prove that everything she knew wasn't destroyed in fear and hatred. Yeah, so she's bitter, I would be too if I saw my entire family killed for trying to do the right thing. I'm thinking Vol is the single most missunderstood person in the entire setting. I'm definately getting the idea for a campaign out of all this.
Korhal IV 12-29-04, 08:51 PM	I dunno, call me biased, but if Hitler's brother and Roosevelt's niece had had a secret marriage in the middle of World War II and then rushed out to declare that everyone could put their guns down because of their love and happiness - well, dang, if I'd been on the frontlines I'd've shot at them too. The House of Vol was criminally guilty of idealism and naivete. People who've lost relatives are going to give up vengeance because of admittedly repulsive cross-breeding? Heck no.
Edymnion 12-29-04, 08:54 PM	I dunno, call me biased, but if Hitler's brother and Roosevelt's niece had had a secret marriage in the middle of World War II and then rushed out to declare that everyone could put their guns down because of their love and happiness - well, dang, if I'd been on the frontlines I'd've shot at them too. The House of Vol was criminally guilty of idealism and naivete. People who've lost relatives are going to give up vengeance because of admittedly repulsive cross-breeding? Heck no.Yeah, their idea wasn't the best, but it was by no means justification for slaughtering an entire House. To use your example, if Roosevelt's neice and Hitlor's brother had a kid, does that mean its the right thing to do to shoot Roosevelt in the head, his wife, his kids, and everyone that is even remotely related to him? This wasn't just a knee jerk reaction, this was systematic genocide. Plus, the marriage of royal families has long been used as a way to end wars and ensure peace. Heck, thats why almost all of the kings and queens of europe were related to each other, because they all intermarried to keep the peace.
Korhal IV 12-29-04, 08:58 PM	Hey, if they shoot Hitler too, why not? :P Seriously, life was a lot more brutal then, and you're talking about some very powerful mages - imprisonment or fines aren't going to cut it. I won't deny that it was harsh, and cruel, but unjustified? Not entirely.
Streamweaver 12-29-04, 08:59 PM	Ironic that I just posted a thread on the evil paradigm in Eberron too. lol I definitly agree with the observations Edymnion is making here. There is quiet a bit of tragedy tied up with the story of Vol. Though by this point I think what may have started out as an injustice and a tragedy has turned into a crime. While it may be understandable how Vol turned out, the 2600 years of evil comitted since that time would ve hard to justify. It illustrates one of the wonderful things about the Eberron setting the idea that things are more complicated here than than they are in other settings. Many worlds talk about the concept of shades of grey but I think few have done as good a job illustrating those concepts through complex characters and complicated stories. Vol, Kaius I/III, and The Lord of Blades are all great examples of complex stories and characters that just can't be dismissed as evil and wrong.
Edymnion 12-30-04, 01:09 AM	Ironic that I just posted a thread on the evil paradigm in Eberron too. lol I definitly agree with the observations Edymnion is making here. There is quiet a bit of tragedy tied up with the story of Vol. Though by this point I think what may have started out as an injustice and a tragedy has turned into a crime. While it may be understandable how Vol turned out, the 2600 years of evil comitted since that time would ve hard to justify.Yeah, she's definately got the "The Ends Justify The Means" mentality going on. Everybody else be damned, if it means she can bring her family back. But really, her means may be deplorable, but you can't fault her goal. And also remember, Revenge is not Evil in D&D, its Neutral. How you go about obtaining it can be Good or Evil, but the act of seeking just revenge is not in itself an Evil act. And really, I would call the systematic genocide of her entire family, her House, and the entire history of her family's Dragonmark to be more than enough to be considered just cause for revenge. This could be a great basis for using Libris Mortis in Eberron, actually. Playing sentient undead loyal to Erandis d'Vol, trying to restore House Vol to it's proper place in history. Its got the main goal/MacGuffin already there, rumors of someone bearing a dragonmark no one has ever seen before (aka the Mark of Death). Its got built in opponents (Church of Silver Flame, adventuring parties, etc) that hear about an "elite band of undead" that are "ravaging" the countryside in search of "an innocent young boy/girl". You've got the undead PCs that are actually of Good alignment, and the badguys are actually also of Good alignment. Would be an interesting moment when the party runs across a Paladin that is there to "smite the evil abominations"... that don't detect as Evil, and keep trying to talk instead of fight...
Hellcow 12-30-04, 01:52 AM	I'll just note that the history of Aerenal will be developed in a little more detail starting with the next Dragonshard - it doesn't deal with Vol directly, but sheds a little more light on things.
TricksterGod 12-30-04, 04:00 AM	Keep in mind that what's just isn't always right and vice versa. Based on the reaction to Erandis, I'm tempted to say that the right thing was done, but that the right thing was an unjust thing. It seems strongly implied that a Dragonmark showing up in a half-dragon was a very bad thing and that by eliminating everything surrounding the Mark, some kind of travesty was averted or at least delayed. Chances are what that travesty would have been is a major secret, likely known only by the eldest of Deathless and dragons. Thus why Erandis' parents didn't know any better; the result of what they were doing wasn't common knowledge. The reason that the purpose of the House of Vol's eradication is still kept secret probably lies with the travesty being repeatable and certain groups - such as, say, the Cult of the Dragon Below - would immediately try to replicate it if they knew what would come of it. In either case, I don't think that House Vol was annihilated simply because Erandis was a freakish abomination of nature whose existence was self-contained. No, I think that she was a bad omen of the Prophecy and those in the know needed to act if they wanted to prevent some kind of calamity from striking Eberron. And while it's small consolation, at least Erandis did bring about peace. At the cost of her entire House, sure. But the dragons and elves came to a truce, at least. I agree, though. The elimination of House Vol certainly is a great tragedy. Even if it does have some compelling reasons as to why it happened, particularly since those reasons are as of yet unknown.
Sarlax 12-30-04, 04:31 AM	The dragons are keepers, chroniclers, and manipulators of the Prophecy. Based on the last dragonshard and texts, the dragonmarked individuals are especially important factors in the unfolding of the Prophecy. If these two produce marked offspring, what could the results be? A being who both sees and is an integral part of the future? While the elves may have just been outraged at the crossbreeding, I think the dragons had a much deeper concern: Erandis d'Vol could entirely disrupt the Prophecy. The dragons seem to use the Prophecy to protect Eberron. When they rediscover it, they get rid of the fiends. Later, they taught the giants magic, who then have to fight off the Quori. They bring the Gatekeepers into existence who end up fighting off the Daelkyr. (Hm. The Dkakaani Empire forms at the same time. I bet the dragons stimulated that, too). Erandis d'Vol could ruin everything. Her very existence might compromise the ability of the dragons to see the Prophecy, and hence lose the ability to protect the world from these terrible threats. The dragons probably act cautiously because they can see clearly: if they are direct or rash, the Prophecy would be more difficult to see. Once Vol's in the picture, all bets are off. Every action she would take is magnified by both her dragonmark and her dragonblood. She's simply too much of a wildcard. As for the rest of House Vol, I have ideas. Maybe the dragons were worried that the existence of Erandis had tainted the entire family or the entire mark. Or maybe they wanted to send a message to any other dragonmarked families (or other dragons) who were thinking about doing the same thing. Now, I don't think this mitigates the evil of eradicating the entire house. But I think it's a possible motive.
Streamweaver 12-30-04, 05:18 AM	Yeah, she's definately got the "The Ends Justify The Means" mentality going on. Everybody else be damned, if it means she can bring her family back. But really, her means may be deplorable, but you can't fault her goal. And also remember, Revenge is not Evil in D&D, its Neutral. How you go about obtaining it can be Good or Evil, but the act of seeking just revenge is not in itself an Evil act..... This concept is really at the heart of the title of the other thread I made we referenced earlier "The new paradigm of evil". That evil in Eberron isn't just orcs going out to kill innocent babies for fun on Friday night (and in their defense it is pretty boring in the Marches on Friday night) it's much more complex than that. One of the things I love about Eberron is alignment doesn't seem to exist as a guideline of how to act, but a big question mark hanging over a character asking them to explore the whole issue of morality. Vol is a great example of that as some of what she did or does could be understood or even excused, but could all of it? When does revenge end and an atrocity begin? Surely we've passed that point after 2600 years haven't we? It's having a meaty setting with characters that frame these debates and allow you to play them out in actual play that sets Eberron apart for me. Well it's one of the things anyway, but I'll stop because I don't want to make Keith Blush.
Wizardman 12-30-04, 05:18 AM	I also think that Vol is a wonderful tragic villain. What happened to her family was on the level of the lycanthropic purges of Khorvaire and Sarlona, morally if not in scale. That doesn't justify her actions, but it does explain them. I seem to remember something somewhere about some dragons covertly warring with each other in order to cause their particular interpretation of the Prophecy to fruition. We've gotten some stuff about Erandis' mother, but all we know about her father is that he was a green dragon (I'm assuming was, as it would be hypocritical to take out the House of Vol without killing daddy dearest at the least). The dragons are wholly engrossed with the Prophecy. Until Hellcow reveals differently, it occupies the place in their hearts that the dragons of other worlds fill with their hoard (or Paladine/Takhisis, in DL). Why would Daddy agree to this measure? Out of a desire for peace? I can buy that, but not as the sole cause. I would be willing to bet good money that he foresaw something huge and very important coming out of his union with Mumsy d'Vol. I think that Daddy saw that the child of this union would unite the elves and dragons, and that he saw that as a good thing or he wouldn't have gone through with it. The other dragons, and the Deathless, obviously disagreed, and between both groups, there was more than enough power to make their ideal version of the Prophecy a reality. Whether this turns out to be correct or not, I am sure of one thing: the Prophecy is not done with Erandis d'Vol, not by a longshot. Originally Posted by Hellcow I'll just note that the history of Aerenal will be developed in a little more detail starting with the next Dragonshard - it doesn't deal with Vol directly, but sheds a little more light on things. Can someone direct me to the location of the dork-orgy please? (What? I love elves, and I love the Aereni!)
Gez 12-30-04, 07:51 AM	Can someone direct me to the location of the dork-orgy please? http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/archeb/ds Take a look at the other articles, too: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebx/articles And remember Keith said the next dragonshard... At the time I'm typing that, the last DS in date is about the Prophecy. Wait a bit for the Aerenal one to be put online.
staz100 12-30-04, 10:58 AM	I must say, prior to reading this thread, Erandis d'Vol was one of my least favorite antagonists in the ECS. You folks made me look at her in a different light, especially when also looking at Keith's Prophesy Dragonshard article. Maybe Erandis was supposed to be born and become a lich for some reason only the dragons know? That Prophesy thing can be pretty difficult to understand. Don't you agree... :plotting:
The White Sorcerer 12-30-04, 11:19 AM	Maybe Erandis was supposed to be born and become a lich for some reason only the dragons know? Maybe she was supposed to be born and to have a great impact on all Eberron (other than the destruction of House Vol). But maybe she wasn't supposed to die and become a lich. Maybe House Vol was supposed to survive. Unknowingly, the dragons have royally screwed the Prophecy.
Streamweaver 12-30-04, 11:27 AM	Good ideas all. The most obvious idea would be that Vol herself is kind of 'time capsule" to keep whatever knowlege or element of the Mark of Death in the world until it returns. An interesting plot could involved the King Kaius. What was her reason for dong what she did to him? Surely it can't be just control becuase there are other ways to do that. What if he and his family are a cornerstone in her plot to return the mark?
Alhandra's Feisty Destrier 12-30-04, 11:59 AM	*snip* Sarlax, that is absolutely brilliant. And it doesn't even have to be the truth, even if the dragons believe it.
Neofish 12-30-04, 12:17 PM	Maybe she was supposed to be born and to have a great impact on all Eberron (other than the destruction of House Vol). But maybe she wasn't supposed to die and become a lich. Maybe House Vol was supposed to survive. Unknowingly, the dragons have royally screwed the Prophecy. Kaius's wife is an elf right.?
phantarch 12-30-04, 12:40 PM	Kaius's wife is an elf right.? Right. I also wonder what else the elves motivation may have been. The whole half-dragon elf thing may have been an excuse. If I recall correctly, Keith has stated that the Mark of Death was specifically linked to negative energy, not the positive energy of the Deathless. It's possible that the elves viewed the entire House as an abomination, flying in the face of the deathless.
Ohtar Turinson 12-30-04, 12:40 PM	Maybe she was supposed to be born and to have a great impact on all Eberron (other than the destruction of House Vol). But maybe she wasn't supposed to die and become a lich. Maybe House Vol was supposed to survive. Unknowingly, the dragons have royally screwed the Prophecy. Bah. Prophecy is always true, through rarely in the way that mortals think it will be. You can't stop a true prophecy; that's the nature of the thing. It's fate written out, and you can't change it, no matter how hard you try. Of course, that's just my interpretation based on Classical mythology. (Notably the story of Perseus, the Aeneid and the Iliad) I suspect that the Dragon misinterpret the signs though, especially the comparatively inexperienced Chamber- they attempt to make it come true based on what they see, but they don't realize that its not something they can make happen or not happen- if its going to happen, it will happen, no matter what they do. Of course, they can't actually change that either, if it pertains to the prophecy. Again, just my take here. I think the prophecy's one of the coolest parts of the setting.
Zedium 12-30-04, 12:56 PM	Well, we might have to note that House Vol was never really loved by the other elves to start with. They probably had the status of what drow have in other settings, they were the black sheep of the elf family. They created undead, the ultimate foe of the typical elvish Deathless afterall. And if that wasn't bad enough, the other elves suddenly hear that House Vol has gone one step further than just creating undead, they have conspired with the enemy. The house probably had been walking the line between "good" and "evil" (in the elven oppinion) for some time, and most other elves had been tolerant so far until that moment. And take into account that most elven families only interbreed, in their culture it might even be seen as an offence to breed with someone of another family, let stand alone an entire different race. Wouldn't you try to put a stop to a family that is known for eating rodents and you suddenly hear they have started to eat babies? I am just showing things from the elven point of view, trying to rationalise what makes them tick so to speak. I do agree it is a big tragedy on Vol's side, and she does have her reasons to be ******. She might even have a few noble goals although she is completely ruthless when trying to reach them (that is why she is LE). (Curious side note, anyone ever wondered how OLD Vol was when she was turned into a lich? Might be a surprise for the party to discover that Vol is only a tolder. But in true movie fashion I guess she was in her late teens when she transformed so she is an undead babe now hehe)
Edymnion 12-30-04, 01:39 PM	Vol is a great example of that as some of what she did or does could be understood or even excused, but could all of it? When does revenge end and an atrocity begin? Surely we've passed that point after 2600 years haven't we? Libris Mortis had a great example of this. It mentioned that when someone becomes a sentient undead, their mindset pretty much calcifies shortly thereafter. So, while the ancient lich or vampire may seem crazy today, their actions most likely make perfect sense in the distant past when they were created. We've got the same thing going on with Vol here. She's no longer capable of changing her ways, she's become fixed in the way she thinks. She wants to restore her family, her house, and her mark, and that has become the only thing she can really think about anymore. As for the Mark of Death, I'm betting it had to do with raising undead (skeletons/zombies for the Lesser mark), greater undead with more powerful marks, maybe with some things like Slay Living tossed in just for kicks.
Nightshade 12-30-04, 02:03 PM	I have trouble believing that the motives of the House of Vol in producing a half-elf half-dragon was solely pure in intent and for the better-ment of Elven and Dragonkind. I think you're making an assumption, Edy, one that is understandable given the text in the ECS. However, I think that there is more to the story that we do not know. Perhaps a great deal more. I think Zedium may be on to something.
Neofish 12-30-04, 02:09 PM	I have trouble believing that the motives of the House of Vol in producing a half-elf half-dragon was solely pure in intent and for the better-ment of Elven and Dragonkind. I think you're making an assumption, Edy, one that is understandable given the text in the ECS. However, I think that there is more to the story that we do not know. Perhaps a great deal more. I think Zedium may be on to something. Perhaps they did it to elevate thier house status in Areneal (sp?), what better way to gain the eye of your peers then to end an age old conflict......
Myrkol 12-30-04, 02:15 PM	Bah. Prophecy is always true, through rarely in the way that mortals think it will be. You can't stop a true prophecy; that's the nature of the thing. It's fate written out, and you can't change it, no matter how hard you try. Of course, that's just my interpretation based on Classical mythology. (Notably the story of Perseus, the Aeneid and the Iliad) I suspect that the Dragon misinterpret the signs though, especially the comparatively inexperienced Chamber- they attempt to make it come true based on what they see, but they don't realize that its not something they can make happen or not happen- if its going to happen, it will happen, no matter what they do. Of course, they can't actually change that either, if it pertains to the prophecy. Again, just my take here. I think the prophecy's one of the coolest parts of the setting. What would really be entertaining, is if the dragon's decided that the house of Vol needed to be destroyed to stop the part of the prophecy about the half-dragon that has great powers and threatens to destroy the world. Unfortunately, by destroying the house of Vol, the dragons fulfilled the prophecy, by giving said half-dragon the desire to destroy the world.
Edymnion 12-30-04, 02:46 PM	I have trouble believing that the motives of the House of Vol in producing a half-elf half-dragon was solely pure in intent and for the better-ment of Elven and Dragonkind. I think you're making an assumption, Edy, one that is understandable given the text in the ECS. However, I think that there is more to the story that we do not know. Perhaps a great deal more. But, if thats so, we don't know it. All we can go off of is what we have given to us in the books, and in the Dragonshards. Keith says there might be something useful in the next 'shard, but until then, all we're given is that Erandis was to bring peace between the two races. Whatever alterior motive they may have had is pure speculation.
Hellcow 12-30-04, 02:53 PM	I realize that I'm a week off - the Dragonshard I mentioned is still two weeks away. I'll also note that it's not specifically about Aerenal or Vol, so don't expect too much - it simply deals with certain aspects of elvish history. One thing I'll say is that the tension between the Undying Court and the line of Vol (and their supporters) stretched back far beyond the manifestation of the Mark of Death or the birth of Erandis. So this was a situation that had been brewing for some time - which finally reached a boiling point as these came to pass.
DolArrah 12-30-04, 02:55 PM	Early on in the thread, people were talking about Hitler's brother and Roosevelt's neice. Well, it would be a lot more extreme than that. It would be like 2,000 years worth of Hitlers. Although I am not disagreeing with the idea that the genocide was wrong, I think that the reasons are well founded. There is poroboble also some other thing, like how if dragons were related to elves, they would have to hlp eachother, throwing the prophecy out of wack. I agree with you thouhg: it is evil to murder all of House Vol. Peace, Dol Arrah
Jarlaxle_The_Rogue 12-30-04, 03:13 PM	One of the things I love most about Eberron: No its not speculation, its within the DMs power to change and mold anything as he/she wishes. If you want it to be true then its true. Personally I think I'm gonna stick with the idea of there being more that we don't know - its more interesting this way.
Streamweaver 12-30-04, 05:19 PM	I realize that I'm a week off - the Dragonshard I mentioned is still two weeks away. I'll also note that it's not specifically about Aerenal or Vol, so don't expect too much - it simply deals with certain aspects of elvish history. Ha Hellcows, too late! Vol is ours now and we're going to run with her! Yeeee haaaa!! Seriously though, it goes to show again how good Eberron is. It gives us enough to run with as far as we have, we aren't blocked in telling the story and don't have to wait for the next tidbit, though of course we enjoy them. My question though is was Vol a major NPC from your original conception of the game or was she added later? Hmmmm
Edymnion 12-30-04, 05:28 PM	One of the things I love most about Eberron: No its not speculation, its within the DMs power to change and mold anything as he/she wishes. If you want it to be true then its true. Personally I think I'm gonna stick with the idea of there being more that we don't know - its more interesting this way.Yes, and if you want to make Vol a 3 month old baby kobold, you're perfectly within your rights as a DM to do so. However, when on the boards, and we're discussing whats written in the books, you cannot use houserules to back something up. You have to stick to what is actually in the books, and then you can hypothesize what it could mean. But you cannot start with a hypo. and then build up from there. Because, really, when anything is within the DM's power to change as they want, nothing matters, because it can become anything. Gotta keep ourselves rooted to whats actually written. If you can't find where its written in the ECS, Sharn, one of the modules, a dragonshard, or something Keith has said here on the boards, then as far as this discussion is concerned, it isn't admissable as canon. So, the DM is well within their rights to add conspiracies as they see fit, and encouraged to do so, but you can't go referancing something that you made up that isn't in the books somewhere.
The White Sorcerer 12-31-04, 01:45 AM	Because, really, when anything is within the DM's power to change as they want, nothing matters, because it can become anything. One of the reasons that makes posting on the Dragonlance forums so painful.
Edymnion 12-31-04, 01:48 PM	One of the reasons that makes posting on the Dragonlance forums so painful.I'm sorry, this is totally off topic, but... *reads TWS's title* "Unleash the robotic My Little Dinosaurs!" :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Blue Sky 12-31-04, 02:22 PM	Yes, and if you want to make Vol a 3 month old baby kobold, you're perfectly within your rights as a DM to do so. However, when on the boards, and we're discussing whats written in the books, you cannot use houserules to back something up. You have to stick to what is actually in the books, and then you can hypothesize what it could mean. But you cannot start with a hypo. and then build up from there. Because, really, when anything is within the DM's power to change as they want, nothing matters, because it can become anything. Gotta keep ourselves rooted to whats actually written. If you can't find where its written in the ECS, Sharn, one of the modules, a dragonshard, or something Keith has said here on the boards, then as far as this discussion is concerned, it isn't admissable as canon. So, the DM is well within their rights to add conspiracies as they see fit, and encouraged to do so, but you can't go referancing something that you made up that isn't in the books somewhere. You know, I've never seen anything on these boards that say that you're only allowed to post canon, only canon, and nothing but canon. ;) Personally, I like the idea that there was something else going on with the house of Vol. I can even see Erandis as a tragic figure in her past. But with 2600 years of manipulation, murder, and negative energy flowing through your veins, any redeeming quality has been leeched out of her. She's nothing more than a shell of her former life, filled with hate and lust for revenge. Nothing else matters to her. And if I weren't focusing on the warforged/LoB angle in my game, I would totally rip some of the stuff off this board for home use.
Streamweaver 12-31-04, 03:08 PM	You know, I've never seen anything on these boards that say that you're only allowed to post canon, only canon, and nothing but canon. ;) I didn't really get that he was saying that, perhaps I just assumed it was meant from a simlar point of view to my own though and I'll post that rather than trying to speak for him. As a DM you can use the material however you like, but as such it just becomes an interesting post or thought exercise. If people want to discuss Eberron, then sticking to the common frame of reference and the actual subject is nessisary. If you run with it far enough that it's no longer Eberron then it is probably better placed in the general forums than these forums. Otherwise it becomes like trying to discuss the Disney version of Three Musketeers at a gathering of people studying the original Novel. At the very least this thread itself is more about the elements of Eberron as presented. Alternate histories and such probably have a better home in another thread.
wizard of oz 12-31-04, 07:50 PM	Well, we might have to note that House Vol was never really loved by the other elves to start with. They probably had the status of what drow have in other settings, they were the black sheep of the elf family. They created undead, the ultimate foe of the typical elvish Deathless afterall. And if that wasn't bad enough, the other elves suddenly hear that House Vol has gone one step further than just creating undead, they have conspired with the enemy. The house probably had been walking the line between "good" and "evil" (in the elven oppinion) for some time, and most other elves had been tolerant so far until that moment. And take into account that most elven families only interbreed, in their culture it might even be seen as an offence to breed with someone of another family, let stand alone an entire different race. Wouldn't you try to put a stop to a family that is known for eating rodents and you suddenly hear they have started to eat babies? I am just showing things from the elven point of view, trying to rationalise what makes them tick so to speak. I do agree it is a big tragedy on Vol's side, and she does have her reasons to be ******. She might even have a few noble goals although she is completely ruthless when trying to reach them (that is why she is LE). (Curious side note, anyone ever wondered how OLD Vol was when she was turned into a lich? Might be a surprise for the party to discover that Vol is only a tolder. But in true movie fashion I guess she was in her late teens when she transformed so she is an undead babe now hehe) It is my understanding that the elves worship their ancestors not positive energy. Vol and the other houses all worshiped their ancestors. The worship of the deathless was probably an extension of ancestor worship. House Vol would be the first ones to be able to preserve their greatest ancestors and for a while was revered and feared by the other houses for this. It wasn't until much later in thier history that they were finally able to use positive energy to preserve them with positive energy. That would give them a significant time advantage. They probably had a large Undead Court like the Deathless city is now. In fact, I think that the city of the dead was the ancestral home of House Vol. When the Deathless took the city they didn't even need to move the seat of power. The reason that everyone started to make deathless was because they wanted to counter the power Vol had. Still House Vol was probably able to create more Undead like Vampires, Liches, and Mummies than all the other houses deathless. The war with the elves and dragons probably weakend House Vol enough that at the same time as an attack came from the Dragons they could strike and destroy the house. The other elves developed a hatred of Negatively charged undead as a justification for their opposition to House Vol, not because they hated negative energy. Even after the Enemy was gone their hatred for their instuments remained. It is kind of like hating Soviet Russia and hating Communism. One thing that people don't remember is that Positive energy is not Good energy. The plane of positive energy even says that. So all that stuff about the Deathless being good and stuff is all just propaganda put out at that time. you could probably cast the spell on evil people and get deathless it is just not done as a custom. There are probably are just as many evil deathless as there are evil priests in the church of silver flame. There are also probably deathless still haunted by what they did to house Vol as well. I think of Erandis d'Vol like Alia from the first Dune Movie
Sarlax 12-31-04, 10:00 PM	The reason that everyone started to make deathless was because they wanted to counter the power Vol had. This seems to contradict other indications. For instance: One thing I'll say is that the tension between the Undying Court and the line of Vol (and their supporters) stretched back far beyond the manifestation of the Mark of Death or the birth of Erandis. So this was a situation that had been brewing for some time - which finally reached a boiling point as these came to pass. The Undying far predate the Mark of Death. According to the timeline (p224), the Undying go back 25,000 years. The Mark of Death only appear 3,200 years ago. Keith's remark is interesting. The Vol family was already in conflict with the other elven families. Your broad point might be correct: maybe the elves only came to hate negative energy because it was House Vol's domain. It illuminates something else: the dragonmarks appear on people for a reason. Whatever force causes dragonmarks to manifest selected the elven family Vol because they were already at odds with the rest of elven society (it seems). One thing that people don't remember is that Positive energy is not Good energy. This is something I've believed for a long time. While the negative planes (Negative Energy Plane in core, Mabar in Eberron) might have a higher proportion of evil creatures, they aren't evil aligned at all. In Eberron the planes of fire and ice are evil but the negative plane isn't. I'm fairly certain that the deathless in the ECS are only typically good because it's usually the good elves who are selected to be Undying.
chimpman 01-01-05, 12:23 AM	Cool! I just read through this entire thread and am going to jump back up to something Sarlax said because it got me thinking. The dragons are keepers, chroniclers, and manipulators of the Prophecy. Based on the last dragonshard and texts, the dragonmarked individuals are especially important factors in the unfolding of the Prophecy. And now we know that the dragons do not have a monolythic view of the Prophecy. There are at least two (the Chamber and the Ancients) and possibly more, draconic groups trying to interpret the Prophecy, and interpreting it differently. If these two produce marked offspring, what could the results be? A being who both sees and is an integral part of the future? While the elves may have just been outraged at the crossbreeding, I think the dragons had a much deeper concern: Erandis d'Vol could entirely disrupt the Prophecy. Heh... but this is only one interpretation of how Erandis d'Vol might affect the Prophecy, and there may be other draconic factions with differing oppinions. Was Daddy Green acting on his own when he decided to mate with the Vols and produce Erandis... or was he acting on orders from his superiors? It's true that Daddy Green was sacrificed in the end, but perhaps that was necessary. Perhaps Daddy Green even knew of and accepted his fate. If a "crossbreeding faction" did exist, does it still? If it does it would suggest that the group is clandestine, and doesn't advertise its beliefs (lest they be prosecuted by others of their species. Some of its oldest members could have been around during Erandis' life (before her unlife). This would put them on par with the other Ancient faction, making them much more powerful than those babes in the Chamber. What are the Crossbreeders up to now...2600 years later? Did they intend for Erandis to become a lich, or was that a mistake? Are they in contact with Erandis now, and what plans do they have in store for her? Would she accept help from "friends of her father," and would they offer it? So many questions... so many possibilities. Keep the ideas coming. This stuf is great.
Romulus LoneWolf 01-01-05, 01:18 AM	Ooh... I like the Crossbreeder idea.. An excuse for not only using the Half-Dragon template, but also the Draconic Creature template from Draconomicon (and maybe also the Elemental Drakes and/or Landwyrms) and the Reptilian template from Savage Species. What other factions could exist..? Ok, for a while now, when hearing about Draconic behavior in Eberron, I've been thinking of Babylon 5's Vorlons: mysterious and powerful meddlers who manipulate whole civilisations from behind the scenes according to their own unfathomable goals. So, why not a faction of "Shadows", dragons who seek to foster conflict amongst the lesser races, following an interpretation of the Prophecy announcing a Great, Final Conflict: they know that only strong races will survive this conflict, and hope to prepare the mortals for it by violence. And maybe a "Primordial Elements" faction of dragons who ignore the mortal races altogether and focus more on the elements of the prophecy written in the very substance of the world..
wizard of oz 01-01-05, 03:02 AM	The Undying far predate the Mark of Death. According to the timeline (p224), the Undying go back 25,000 years. The Mark of Death only appear 3,200 years ago. Keith's remark is interesting. The Vol family was already in conflict with the other elven families. Your broad point might be correct: maybe the elves only came to hate negative energy because it was House Vol's domain. first I read this and it sounds a little angry but that is not how it was meant so take that into account when you read this. There are more than two elven houses in Aerenal and not all of them have dragon marks. only 2 originals did. Vol the Family was around long before Dragon Marked House Vol, or Dragon Marked House Phiarlan was. This is true for House Kundarak, that used to be clan Kundarak. I believe Kieth also said the members of house Vol were talented necromancers without a dragon mark, and before it. Necromancy is also a standard wizard school while manipulating positive energy to do what the elves do has only been around for 25,000 years. wow that sounds funny doesn't it. The people studying Negative energy basically came over from Xendrik with their knowledge. Heck some of the Liches could have been born on Xendrik, even lead the revolt. That would give those studying them 35,000 year head start. Something else I stumbled upon was that the dragons started attacking around the time the undying court was established. It could be that the dragons were originally attacking to stop the undying court from being established, but in a knee jerk reaction they allowed the other elves to destroy the only thing that might keep them in check. After they realized what they had done they were taken a back and stopped the elf war.
Sarlax 01-01-05, 05:06 AM	Was Daddy Green acting on his own when he decided to mate with the Vols and produce Erandis... or was he acting on orders from his superiors? It's true that Daddy Green was sacrificed in the end, but perhaps that was necessary. Perhaps Daddy Green even knew of and accepted his fate. If a "crossbreeding faction" did exist, does it still? I like this idea. In fact, perhaps the Prophecy refers again and again to one who is both dragonmarked and dragonblooded. This figure might be messiah-like. For thousands of years, the dragons may have been waiting for this to unfold, not even knowing what it meant to be "dragonmarked." Then the Marks of Shadow and Death appear. This would trigger great debate among the dragons. Do they simply watch? Will one of these "dragonmarked" mortals eventually mate with a dragon, or does one of them already bear draconic blood from an ancestor generations back? Erandis d'Vol is created 2,600 years ago: only 600 years after the marks appear. That's only a couple elven generations and one generation for dragons. For whatever reason, at least one dragon (and maybe an entire faction) decide to start tampering with the dragonmarked races, maybe to bring about this hypothetical dragonblooded and dragonmarked messiah. But the other dragons felt it was too early. It was rash and dangerous to breed with House Vol, even if it might bring about the next stage of the Prophecy. The dragons would probably want several generations to contemplate the appearance of the Marks. Perhaps the goal of the Crossing Faction is to do exactly what the other dragons feared: create a kind of mortal that can both read and dramatically alter the Prophecy. For millenia, the dragons were simply reading the Prophecy, like an unending book continually being written. By noting the signs, the dragons learned to guess where the story of the Prophecy would lead and used this gift to protect the world, such as when they talk the giants the magic they'd eventually use to fight off the Quori. Through very subtle manipulations, the dragons could produce ripple effects that would have great weight in coming centuries. On the other hand, the mortal race actually were the Prophecy, in some sense. They were the script and words by which the Prophecy was written onto Eberron (the 'pages' of the text). The dragonmarked appeared, and it was clear that these mortals had much more weight in the way the Prophecy might unfold. While they couldn't see or even really be aware of the Prophecy, they could alter it much more powerfully and quickly than the dragons who were forced to using subtler methods. The goal of the Crossers was simple: combine the understanding of the dragons and the influence of the dragonmarked. In time, this race could both see the Prophecy as it would unfold and affect it powerfully. This could give the dragons the edge they needed the next time the world was threatened: A race of people who could reshape the future as it was being written.
chimpman 01-01-05, 09:54 PM	The goal of the Crossers was simple: combine the understanding of the dragons and the influence of the dragonmarked. In time, this race could both see the Prophecy as it would unfold and affect it powerfully. This could give the dragons the edge they needed the next time the world was threatened: A race of people who could reshape the future as it was being written. :D As a big Dune fan I have to say that I approve. Ever since I read the Prophecy Dragonshard I've had this idea of dragons working agains dragons stuck in my head. If the Crossers are a relatively new group on the scene, it's possible that Erandis was their first attempt at manipulating the Prophecy. However, their origin might be more ancient. If they have been around for a while, then perhaps the other dragons reaction was based on past experiences. Were the Crossbreeders responsible for Giant/Dragon hybrids that brought the wrath of other dragons down upon the giants of Xen'drik and eventually caused their downfall? Maybe the dragons are actually the ones orchestrating all of these planar invasions so that they can bring interplanar breeding material to Eberron. Somewhere hiding in the depths of Khyber there may be a half dragon-daelkyr... scary thought.
Edymnion 01-01-05, 10:28 PM	One I've been kicking around in my head for a while now. What is the only group in Khovaire to use negative powered undead on a regular basis? Right, Karrnath, and the Vampire king Kaius. Why do they use undead, and how did a Vampire become king? Could there have been some connection with House Vol? Could it be that, somewhere deep in Karrnath, Kaius is sheltering an elf with the Mark of Death?
Korhal IV 01-01-05, 10:35 PM	One I've been kicking around in my head for a while now. What is the only group in Khovaire to use negative powered undead on a regular basis? Right, Karrnath, and the Vampire king Kaius. Why do they use undead, and how did a Vampire become king? Could there have been some connection with House Vol? Could it be that, somewhere deep in Karrnath, Kaius is sheltering an elf with the Mark of Death? Suddenly, I'm seeing a lot more plot twists involving his wife - whether she's got the Mark, or whether everyone thinks she does! :D Eeevil thought: If Vol is powerful enough - with enough time to put an eldritch machine together if needed - what if she's Kaius' wife?! (without his knowledge) I mean, she'd want to stay an elf, if disguised/reincarnated, but wouldn't want to associate with other elves because of her hatred for them and possible fear of discovery. Hanging out in Karrnath fits all the necessary prerequisites! :D
Romulus LoneWolf 01-01-05, 11:06 PM	One I've been kicking around in my head for a while now. What is the only group in Khovaire to use negative powered undead on a regular basis? Right, Karrnath, and the Vampire king Kaius. Why do they use undead, and how did a Vampire become king? Could there have been some connection with House Vol? Could it be that, somewhere deep in Karrnath, Kaius is sheltering an elf with the Mark of Death? Uh, it's explained in the "Kaius Revealed" sidebox on page 178 of the ECS. When the Last War was in full swing, Kaius I was approached by Priests of the Blood of Vol. They offered him their help in the war in exchange for "certain considerations". They gave him his Undead troops of zombies and skeletons, then helped form the Order of the Emerald Claw. In exchange, Vol would be allowed to build temples and bases throughout Karrnath, and would have Kaius as a vampire thrall. But Kaius fought to keep his independance, and Vol triggered his blood lust and made him kill his wife. Since then, he's been secretly working to break all dies with the Blood of Vol. If Vol is his new wife, she's doing it without his knowledge. Because it sounds to me more like he'd want to destroy her if he could.
Streamweaver 01-01-05, 11:06 PM	One I've been kicking around in my head for a while now. What is the only group in Khovaire to use negative powered undead on a regular basis? Right, Karrnath, and the Vampire king Kaius. Why do they use undead, and how did a Vampire become king? Could there have been some connection with House Vol? Could it be that, somewhere deep in Karrnath, Kaius is sheltering an elf with the Mark of Death? This is a hard idea and one that'll take some turning around to get a good grasp on I think. Obviously the acceptance of undead had to extend culturally before Kaius I's time because you don't just spring that on the population and have them be okay with it. It is possible some connection to the mark of death exists, but pure elf is the only way to go with this if the idea of blood purity is still applicable to the mark. Considering it more I don't know if the mark itself is the connection here. There is also the fact that the Blood of Vol wants to invade the elven continent, so it's perfectly legitimate for her to just try to build a power base. Perhaps just using Karnnath as a staging ground for taking over Khorvair? She would stand to gain quiet a bit of power if Karnnath were to win in a battle of dominance with the other nations. Being relegated to a forzen island in the NE of the continent can't be the best seat of power. So I guess I can see this not having to do with the mark at all. Lots of words to basically say I don't know, maybe.
Korhal IV 01-01-05, 11:15 PM	Being relegated to a forzen island in the NE of the continent can't be the best seat of power. So I guess I can see this not having to do with the mark at all. That's what they said about the Kennedys. :P LoneWolf - are you sure Kaius killed his first wife? I don't have my ECS, and I don't remember that, so I'm totally up a creek here. Is there any background info on his current (elven) wife?
Edymnion 01-01-05, 11:17 PM	Uh, it's explained in the "Kaius Revealed" sidebox on page 178 of the ECS. When the Last War was in full swing, Kaius I was approached by Priests of the Blood of Vol. They offered him their help in the war in exchange for "certain considerations". They gave him his Undead troops of zombies and skeletons, then helped form the Order of the Emerald Claw. In exchange, Vol would be allowed to build temples and bases throughout Karrnath, and would have Kaius as a vampire thrall. But Kaius fought to keep his independance, and Vol triggered his blood lust and made him kill his wife. Since then, he's been secretly working to break all dies with the Blood of Vol. If Vol is his new wife, she's doing it without his knowledge. Because it sounds to me more like he'd want to destroy her if he could.Hmmm... yes, I had forgotten about that. Some of the ideas could still be salvaged. Who better to be holding a Deathmarked elf than Kais then? Waiting until the time is right to reveal the last living member of the House of Vol, only to rip them away from Erandis the same was she ripped his wife away from him? Payback is a ***** ;)
Neofish 01-01-05, 11:22 PM	That's what they said about the Kennedys. :P LoneWolf - are you sure Kaius killed his first wife? I don't have my ECS, and I don't remember that, so I'm totally up a creek here. Is there any background info on his current (elven) wife? I was thinking the same thing, it doesn't say that he killed his previous wife....
Chrys 01-02-05, 10:36 AM	I thought he 'ate' his 1st wife after Vol made him go in to some sort of blood rage :confused:
Alratan 01-02-05, 11:13 AM	Thoughts on Crossbreeder factions, and Vol. If you think about it, turning someone into a lich is really a "Time Capsule", biologically speaking. Liches are possibly the hardest things to destroy in D&D, and it is possible to turn them back inot livin creatures. Plot idea. Vol wants to create House Vol. What better way of doing this than to come back to life herself, so she can re-create the bloodline personally? The only cleric around of high enough level to do this, unfortunately is the Speaker of the Silver Flame, so the Blood of Vol needs to find away to compel the Speaker to do this. The Crossbreeder dragons, of course, which are now Advanced Great Wyrms of exceptional age, don't wnat their time capsule to open yet (they are fully capable of ressurecting her when the time is right, as they can cast cleric spells), so a war of infuence wages, between the dragons and their unknowing protege/puppet, with the Crossbreeders ensuring that Vol does not get control of any 13th level or higher clerics - conveiniant that the War took out all the high level characters isn't it.
Laskaw 01-02-05, 11:28 AM	Maybe she was supposed to be born and to have a great impact on all Eberron (other than the destruction of House Vol). But maybe she wasn't supposed to die and become a lich. Maybe House Vol was supposed to survive. Unknowingly, the dragons have royally screwed the Prophecy. This reminds me of an idea I had similar to some of the ones being proposed here -- that recently, a faction of dragons in the Chamber believe that destroying House Vol actually harmed the Prophecy because they destroyed one of the thirteen dragonmarks. Thus, this faction reluctantly yet deliberately aids Erandis to try to restore her dragonmark for the Prophecy to continue. This brings up a whole bunch of plot elements, such as if the faction is right, if the Prophecy can be restored through some other method, and what Vol would do if her dragonmark is restored (presumably, the dragons would be trying to control her). Also, there'd be a conflict between the faction trying to restore Vol and the rest of the Chamber, as they believe Vol would only harm the Prophecy. I like the idea of Vol as being important to the Prophecy because she is a dragon and is dragonmarked, and that could play a part in this too.
Dex The King 01-02-05, 11:42 AM	Some clarification about Kaius, and Karrnath's undead, plus I have the ECS right here. It states that Vol's priests improved the undead creation process, leading to the creation of Karrnathi skeletons and zombies instead of the normal, weaker, mindless variety. Also, Vol made Kaius a vampire. When he refused to submit to her every will, she triggered his "blood rage," and he killed his wife. Now, his current wife, Etrigani, is an elf from Aerenal. She knows of his true nature, but oves him regardless and is working to overcome her culutural bias towards negatively charged undead. Now, of course, all of that is subject to rule zeroing and DM manipulation. If one wants to make Queen Etrigani an agent of Vol or Vol herself, one is within one's rights to do so. One the other subject at hand, I think Erandis d'Vol herself is like a giant red flag in the Prophecy. She is half-dragon, and dragonmarked, and has a great destiny before her. Her actions will shape the course of the world. Now, the dragons knew this, and destroyed House Vol to prevent the existence of any individuals that would have such a destiny. Unfortunately, they failed, and in doing so, created one of the most powerful individuals in Eberron, someone who has changed the course of life in Eberron and made her place in history countless times. It seems as though her grand destiny evolved out of her early childhood experiences, so out of the dragons efforts to prevent a Prophetic sort of dragonmarked "messiah," they in fact created one. I, for one, can't help but wonder if Erandis d'Vol's continued existence beyond the demise of her family was indeed unknown to all of the dragons . . .
WilliamPall 01-02-05, 11:43 AM	conveiniant that the War took out all the high level characters isn't it. Now ya see . . . this is why I come to the message boards. Sadly the cleric in the group i'm running is only level 6 right now . . .
Byron's Ghost 01-02-05, 04:00 PM	Thoughts on Crossbreeder factions, and Vol. If you think about it, turning someone into a lich is really a "Time Capsule", biologically speaking. Liches are possibly the hardest things to destroy in D&D, and it is possible to turn them back inot livin creatures. Now this could be interesting. Are there any "official" ways to come back from an undead state? The only thing I could think of would be to be slain, and then resurrected. I'm not sure if this would work or not (I've houseruled against it in previous games, but that was because I had a "cure the vampiric retainer" plot worked out, and didn't want a quick-fix like this). Anyhow, there could be an interesting twist for an Eberron game here. Say you've got a group that's nearing the end of a long campaign against Vol and the Emerald Claw. They're about 9th or 10th level, they get to what appears to be the climactic scene- the meeting with Vol. Realizing just how much more powerful she is than they, the party is inclined to listen to her story, and her plans to become mortal again. Assume that she's on the verge of completing the ritual (or whatever it is) when the party confronts her and has only to push the big, red button in order to become one of the living. The party decides to go along with this for the moment, if for no other reason than a non-lich Vol will be somewhat easier to fight. Now deprived of the lich template, Vol's alignment shifts back to what it was previously (True Neutral, for the sake of arguement), and her mind "de-calcifies" out of it's previous "take revenge on the entire world" state of thought. Now she's thinking that killing large amounts of people in exchange for something that happened thousands of years ago might be bit extreme. So she decides to follow the path of redemption, and asks the party to help her. There'd be a lot of story hooks coming from this twist- Vol trying to found re-create her House sans all the undead, trying to hide her new state and agenda from both the elves and the dragons, coping with things she's done in the past (such as the corruption of Kaius), etc. Not to mention that she's got two fanactical evil cults at her disposal, and these aren't the sort of people who take to social reform programs- they're much more likely to go about their evil deeds without their mistress, or even try to "redeem" her back to a state of undeath. Throw in some Prophecy bits about the return of the lost House re-uniting the Kingdom of Galifar, and it'd be a pretty epic campaign, I think.
Sarlax 01-02-05, 04:29 PM	Vol's been dead for thousands of years. She can't be raised even by True Resurrection. She's just been dead for too long. If she wants to live again, she needs a different plan.
Alratan 01-03-05, 10:56 AM	Not affected by raise dead and reincarnate spells or abilities. Resurrection and true resurrection can affect undead creatures. These spells turn undead creatures back into the living creatures they were before becoming undead. ]This spell functions like raise dead, except that you can resurrect a creature that has been dead for as long as 10 years per caster level. This spell can even bring back creatures whose bodies have been destroyed, provided that you unambiguously identify the deceased in some fashion (reciting the deceased’s time and place of birth or death is the most common method). Upon completion of the spell, the creature is immediately restored to full hit points, vigor, and health, with no loss of level (or Constitution points) or prepared spells. You can revive someone killed by a death effect or someone who has been turned into an undead creature and then destroyed. This spell can also resurrect elementals or outsiders, but it can’t resurrect constructs or undead creatures. Even true resurrection can’t restore to life a creature who has died of old age. These two statements are contradictory. One says that if you cast True Ressurection on an undead creature, it is turned back into a living one. One says it cannot effect undead at all - it only effects dead creatures. My argument relies on the fact that a) an undead creature is not dead, so does not fall under the dead for 10 years per caster level qualifier, and Vol has nover been dead - she was transformed directly from half-dragon elf to lich without passing Go, so to speak, and b) the undead text over-rides the spell text. I am aware these are both challengable, but I think the grand conspiracy to kock of high level clerics is worth the slight stretching.
chimpman 01-03-05, 12:40 PM	One I've been kicking around in my head for a while now. What is the only group in Khovaire to use negative powered undead on a regular basis? Right, Karrnath, and the Vampire king Kaius. Why do they use undead, and how did a Vampire become king? Could there have been some connection with House Vol? Could it be that, somewhere deep in Karrnath, Kaius is sheltering an elf with the Mark of Death? I've had the idea the Kaius' new wife was a spy sent by the Undying Court. Somehow they know that there is/was a connection between Kaius and Vol. So they sent an agent to find out what that connection is, and if possible track down the present location of Vol so that she can be properly destroyed. Perhaps Kaius knows of his wife's allegiances, and perhaps he doesn't. It is possible that they both know each others secrets and are both working together to track down Vol.
Chrys 01-03-05, 01:37 PM	You know I could see that :eek: a sort of I help you destroy your goof up, You help me get my vengance sort of thing. but then they really fall in love :embarrass; also has any one else wondered if she has asked the court to bing him back to life; I'm pretty sure they could.
Edymnion 01-03-05, 05:23 PM	These two statements are contradictory. One says that if you cast True Ressurection on an undead creature, it is turned back into a living one. One says it cannot effect undead at all - it only effects dead creatures. My argument relies on the fact that a) an undead creature is not dead, so does not fall under the dead for 10 years per caster level qualifier, and Vol has nover been dead - she was transformed directly from half-dragon elf to lich without passing Go, so to speak, and b) the undead text over-rides the spell text. I am aware these are both challengable, but I think the grand conspiracy to kock of high level clerics is worth the slight stretching.Actually, there is no contradiction. You can bring back the dead, or you can bring back someone that was undead, but has been destroyed. As in, if your buddy has become a zombie, you have to beat the zombie down to 0 or less hitpoints to "destroy" it, which breaks the necromantic negative energy thats animating the corpse, and allows the original soul to return to the body. And yes, a lich is dead, even if they were alive when the process was preformed (in fact, I believe you HAVE to be alive to become a lich). The body dies slowly in the process, sort of like Ann Rice vampires.
Gurv 01-03-05, 07:17 PM	Hmmm... yes, I had forgotten about that. Some of the ideas could still be salvaged. Who better to be holding a Deathmarked elf than Kais then? Waiting until the time is right to reveal the last living member of the House of Vol, only to rip them away from Erandis the same was she ripped his wife away from him? Payback is a ***** ;) Close. You know the prisoner from Karrnath being held in Dreadhold? It isn't the real Kaius, like everyone who know the truth about him thinks. It is actually the last living Vol. He is being held hostage against the threat of Erandis attempting to control the King, and this threat has weighed heavily in reducing the Blood of Vol's control over Karrnath. The relative closeness of Dreadhold to Illmarrow Castle is no chance happening. Lady d'Vol watches closely over her cousin, scheming to recapture him, and Kaius encourages this scrutiny. He wants there to be no doubt that the lich's dreams can be instantly destroyed should she try.
Korhal IV 01-03-05, 07:25 PM	Close. You know the prisoner from Karrnath being held in Dreadhold? It isn't the real Kaius, like everyone who know the truth about him thinks. It is actually the last living Vol. He is being held hostage against the threat of Erandis attempting to control the King, and this threat has weighed heavily in reducing the Blood of Vol's control over Karrnath. The relative closeness of Dreadhold to Illmarrow Castle is no chance happening. Lady d'Vol watches closely over her cousin, scheming to recapture him, and Kaius encourages this scrutiny. He wants there to be no doubt that the lich's dreams can be instantly destroyed should she try. Gurv, have a cookie. :cookie: That's an awesome idea. My only regret about this thread is that it can't all be simultaneously true. :(
Edymnion 01-03-05, 08:08 PM	Gurv, have a cookie. :cookie: That's an awesome idea. My only regret about this thread is that it can't all be simultaneously true. :(Sure it can. In rumors. Remember, thats the coolest part of Eberron, nothing is set in stone. LoB can be any build you want, Vol can be tailored as needed, and the "secrets" in the ECS can either be true, or rumors. Use all of the ideas in your campaign. Doesn't matter that some contradict the others. They're all rumors, and the players won't be able to tell which one is true, which are false, or if they all are wrong. :)
ChronosCrow 01-03-05, 10:34 PM	One thing that has not been explored yet, in this thread, is the true nature of The Prophecy. The Prophecy is cryptic and hard to understand, plus it's multifacited. It doesn't say, "This event is set in stone and so shall it be." The Prophecy is a fluid changing element. One reason lending to it's hard translation. It says that a certain event CAN happen, not that it WILL happen. I like to think of it as collection of great possibilites for the world, that allows for a) screw ups on the DM's part, b) false information to the PC's and c) the possibility for change.
ChronosCrow 01-03-05, 10:38 PM	Close. You know the prisoner from Karrnath being held in Dreadhold? It isn't the real Kaius, like everyone who know the truth about him thinks. It is actually the last living Vol. He is being held hostage against the threat of Erandis attempting to control the King, and this threat has weighed heavily in reducing the Blood of Vol's control over Karrnath. The relative closeness of Dreadhold to Illmarrow Castle is no chance happening. Lady d'Vol watches closely over her cousin, scheming to recapture him, and Kaius encourages this scrutiny. He wants there to be no doubt that the lich's dreams can be instantly destroyed should she try. That has got to be the best tie-in I've seen yet Gurv. Nice job. What I really like is it makes creative use of pre-ordained material tying them together. The guy in the prison just has to be something important to Karrnath and it's king and what concerns the king the most, Vol, and the fact that the person in the prison must be some important figure tied to history. The one thing I want to know is do the dragon's know of Erandis d'Vol's lich existance?
WilliamPall 01-03-05, 11:52 PM	The one thing I want to know is do the dragon's know of Erandis d'Vol's lich existance? Why of course they do . . . . didn't you know that Daddy Green is still watching his daughter from safety of Argonnessen? The dragons know that Erandis is an important player in the Prophecy, they knew that the elves would react they way they did, and they knew that Mommy Vol would lichify her daughter. They know that there is more in store for Erandis, they know that she will play a pivotal role in the future of the Prophecy and Eberron . . . they just don't know when exactly. due to that, they need to make sure she can be kept on the back burner. Yes elves live a long time, but sometimes not nearly long enough.
chimpman 01-04-05, 12:43 AM	The one thing I want to know is do the dragon's know of Erandis d'Vol's lich existance? Blarrrghh! ;) Because Kaius is married to one ;) Why didn't I think of that before? That mysterious elf that Kaius is married to is neither an exile from Aerenal, nor an agent of the Undying Court... but she is an agent (polymorphed dragon) of the Chamber, and is desperately seeking Vol in order to destroy her before her counterparts in the Crossbreeder faction can put her to use.
Golbez57 01-04-05, 12:58 PM	Beyond obsessing over the Prophecy, there are certainly dragons that are students of the faiths of Eberron. One of these is known to even common folk as "The Blood of Vol", so there's really no question the dragons know that, somehow, the House that produced the "abominable half-dragon" also gave rise to some great power. The most gifted faithful of the Blood of Vol draw upon divine power in her name, some of them (such as the adept in Sharn whose name escapes me) even able to cause the dead to rise to full life. At the same time, the apparent source of this great divine power, Vol, hasn't been able to restore her(self) to a the sort of living existence that would allow House Vol and the Mark of Death to be restored through procreation. Erandis d'Vol doesn't seem so much to wield power as she apparently is power. If she doesn't exercise total control over the unique power within her--dragonblood and dragonmark--then who does? There are numerous powerful entities and organizations in Eberron that might manipulate Vol and her followers, with the Undying Court or some among the dragons seeming to be the most ready tie-ins. I have certain puppeteers in mind for our campaign.... We haven't heard of any high-level CLERICS of The Blood of Vol, have we? You know, the sort of follower who could use True Resurrection to restore life to Vol? Even if one were to rise to such power, there's a sort of dilemma involved here, as far as rules and reason go: to return to life, Eradis d'Vol's undead existence must first end. However, would that not mean that the same powerful cleric of Vol would be without the source of his or her power to use True Resurrection? There could be a couple ways to resolve this. The first is mentioned already: manipulate someone with great clerical power outside of The Blood of Vol to do so. Barring this and revisiting the idea I suggested above of Vol not only being a sort of "time capsule" (again mentioend earlier in the thread) but also a seeming "power source", might that power be transferrable to another repository? There are beings in Eberron and the planes tied to the world that are able to transfer their essences into other "shells". Who knows, perhaps such a transfer of power was attempted once before, with disastrous results for the nation of Cyre...? Needless to say, if the ideas I have for our campaign come to fruit and we eventually delve into epic level play, we'll end up exploring the interplay of the Prophecy, Dragonmarks, the "theme of 13", the Quori, the conflict between dragons and elves, The Blood of Vol, the rise of the Mournlands, and philosophical concepts such as the difference between belief and reality (if there is a difference at all) and the essence of life and death. I have no grandiose assumptions that I've "figured things out", but am just a happy guy to have such a dynamic world in which to tell these stories with my friends/players. Thanks, Keith and Company. :clap:
chimpman 01-05-05, 12:45 PM	Q Originally Posted by Just another user There are dracoliches in Eberron? And where they are/how they were created? A Short answer: Yes. The Keeper is depicted as a dracolich. This implies the presence of dracoliches in distant times. Fun Fact: Hey, the dragons helped the elves eradicated the elven line of Vol, a house devoted to the study of necromancy. The line of Vol was working with certain dragons, as shown by Erandis d'Vol. Could they have been creating dracoliches, something seen as a terrible affront by the dragons of Argonnessen? A more detailed answer will have to wait for a dragonshard! Here is another idea! Before we discussed the possibility of a draconic Crossbreeder faction. Keith seems to suggest the possibility of yet another faction tied to the house of Vol... a dracolich faction. An interesting side question. Is Erandis a lich, or a dracolich?
lukelightning 01-05-05, 01:23 PM	And take into account that most elven families only interbreed, in their culture it might even be seen as an offence to breed with someone of another family, let stand alone an entire different race... Then where did all the half-elves come from? Even considering the fact that in Eberron they are generally descended from other half-elves and are pretty much their own race, if elves had a great prejudice about species-mixing there wouldn't be any half-elves at all.
Edymnion 01-06-05, 01:59 PM	We haven't heard of any high-level CLERICS of The Blood of Vol, have we? You know, the sort of follower who could use True Resurrection to restore life to Vol? Even if one were to rise to such power, there's a sort of dilemma involved here, as far as rules and reason go: to return to life, Eradis d'Vol's undead existence must first end. However, would that not mean that the same powerful cleric of Vol would be without the source of his or her power to use True Resurrection?But, as we all should know, it doesn't take any one or any thing to fuel divine power in Eberron. You could worship an old shoe, and as long as you believed in the shoe enough, you could cast divine magic. Vol doesn't channel power to her clerics any more than the shoe does. She is the secret figurehead of the religion. Most of her clerics don't even know she exists. Its just that one of her clerics CAN'T raise her. Their religion is based around WANTING to be undead. Making an undead into a living being again is the opposite to their religion's teaching, hence the cleric would lose his power for trying it. But, if she could get some other suitably high leveled Cleric to cast the spell, she could come back to the living, and none of her clerics would be the wiser (she could even use magic to appear to still be undead).
lukelightning 01-06-05, 02:36 PM	But, as we all should know, it doesn't take any one or any thing to fuel divine power in Eberron. You could worship an old shoe, and as long as you believed in the shoe enough, you could cast divine magic. That isn't how I see it. An old shoe is not a diety or divine energy or metaphysical concept or other source of power/wisdom/knowledge. A person devoutly worshipping an old shoe is a loonie, not a cleric. Sure, gods are not concrete, and the source of divine power is nebulous, but allowing faith alone to be a source of power is silly. I would allow a player to have a cleric who's object of worship is nature or the sun or justice or life or just about anything. But no amount of prayer will turn your shoe or banjo-playing-puppet into a source of divine magic.
Isran_Imrador 01-06-05, 02:52 PM	Yes it will! havent you seen the divine shoe thread!? To bring back Vol it think you have to develop a epic! Epic Resurrection but since she has been dead soo long it will be a very high spellcraft DC to develop +240 i think...or develop the Epic Eidolon spell and raise that from the dead, if it is dead that is.. how else would vols clerics gain spells? she aint a god...
Edymnion 01-06-05, 03:01 PM	That isn't how I see it. An old shoe is not a diety or divine energy or metaphysical concept or other source of power/wisdom/knowledge. A person devoutly worshipping an old shoe is a loonie, not a cleric. Sure, gods are not concrete, and the source of divine power is nebulous, but allowing faith alone to be a source of power is silly. I would allow a player to have a cleric who's object of worship is nature or the sun or justice or life or just about anything. But no amount of prayer will turn your shoe or banjo-playing-puppet into a source of divine magic.So, you will let one mundane physical object (a burning ball of gas in the sky) grant magical powers, but not another mundane physical object? A concept can grant divine power, like Good and Evil, but there are no planes of Good or Evil for Eberron clerics to draw power from. Heck, look at Vol. She's not a god, she's a 15th level lich. And most of the people that follow the Blood don't even know she exists. She's not channeling immense magical power to anybody. If the ideas of things are enough to grant divine power, I don't see how it matters WHAT the idea is. Enough belief is enough belief is a divine spell.
Golbez57 01-06-05, 03:11 PM	"Oh Shoe, thou who knows what path is right and who is untarnishable by tavern floor scraps, grant me the grace to turn away these fell undead creatures assailing me!" :blink: Heheh! In a campaign with a heavy emphasis on spiritual power being diffuse among inanimate things, this would be workable if not a little bit weird. I guess I'm of the same line of thinking as luke, in that divine power in Eberron isn't just tied to the deities (or mortals' concepts of them), but might also be found in other readily definable--and undeniably powerful--concepts or forces of nature. Some clerics and adepts of Eberron focus their faith on the power of blood(lines) and the conquering of death by undeath. This philosophy is exemplified, and indeed personified, by the lich Erandis d'Vol. Whether she is the source of this power herself is the sort of thing that is the province of the individual DM. Technically, dragonmarks aren't strictly tied to arcane or divine magic/power. The forces wielded by the oldest dragons are nondistinct, as well. The merging of dragonic heritage and dragonmarked power, by any fantasy conventions, is sure to produce some pretty incredible and unpredictable results. You brought to light a really interesting conundrum, Edymnion, and it recalls the "injustice" and ambiguity about which you originally posted. From what I recall, Erandis IS the only surviving member of her house. She also desires to restore her House and the mark associated with it. Theoretically she must return to true life in order for this to occur. Over time, she has become the figurehead for a religion that reveres undeath. How can she reconcile these two obviously conflicting realities? How do the most powerful faithful of the Blood of Vol, those who might know of her true nature and her past, respond to this? Regardless of differences in philosophy on the nature of divine power in the D & D game in general and in Eberron in particular, this definitely provides some good fuel for storytelling.
lukelightning 01-06-05, 03:26 PM	But in a fantasy world, the sun is not a mundane physical object. Otherwise there would be no "Sun" domain. And even if it was just a ball of fire, the power would come from the concept of "Sun". A shoe has no spiritual reality. It could be the symbol of divine energy, but not the source. And faith in a shoe, no matter how strong, will not give you power. Yes, concepts can provide power, that is clear. Paladins get power from the concept of Good. A cleric can get power from the concept of Evil. I never said you need a plane of existance; these are spiritual concepts that need no location. Clerics of the Blood of Vol worship Vol but it is the Mysteries of the Church of Vol: the bloodline, the mark of death, the metaphysical powers of undeath, perhaps even the Draconic Prophecies that give the power, not Vol herself (though she undoubtably has her bony fingers on the pulse of this power). Enough belief is not enough for a spell, unless you want to run a campaign involving Max the Cleric of the Holy Banana and Fred the Priest of Himself. So, you will let one mundane physical object (a burning ball of gas in the sky) grant magical powers, but not another mundane physical object? A concept can grant divine power, like Good and Evil, but there are no planes of Good or Evil for Eberron clerics to draw power from. Heck, look at Vol. She's not a god, she's a 15th level lich. And most of the people that follow the Blood don't even know she exists. She's not channeling immense magical power to anybody. If the ideas of things are enough to grant divine power, I don't see how it matters WHAT the idea is. Enough belief is enough belief is a divine spell.
Edymnion 01-06-05, 03:27 PM	I mean, come on, the Clerics of the Blood are gaining divine power from the idea that undeath is a good thing. Nothing more. They gain divine might from the idea of a state of being, which can be created or destroyed at will. Even if you say that the Clerics of the Blood are drawing power from Vol by proxy, that just adds to the Shoe argument. So worshipping the shoe isn't drawing power directly from the shoe, but from somewhere else by proxy. But, as far as the clerics know, they worship a shoe, and they get Cure Light Wound spells in exchange.
Edymnion 01-06-05, 03:32 PM	But in a fantasy world, the sun is not a mundane physical object. Otherwise there would be no "Sun" domain. And even if it was just a ball of fire, the power would come from the concept of "Sun".So, again, the idea that the sun has power is enough to grant power to it's worshippers.Clerics of the Blood of Vol worship Vol but it is the Mysteries of the Church of Vol: the bloodline, the mark of death, the metaphysical powers of undeath, perhaps even the Draconic Prophecies that give the power, not Vol herself (though she undoubtably has her bony fingers on the pulse of this power). But they don't. The vast majority of ther clerics of Vol do not worship Vol or the mark of death, or the dragon prophesies, or any of that. They don't even know it exists. They only believe that the religion has power, and that by following it, they can gain power. What the religion is based upon doesn't matter. The idea that its a divine shoe is no better, and no worse, than worshipping vampires and zombies.
lukelightning 01-06-05, 04:06 PM	The worshipper of the Blood of Vol don't need to know the source of the power; they have faith in the church and teachings, and the church and teachings have a spiritual existance and legitimacy. Who knows what the metaphysical mechanics of this is, but they are not just worshipping a zombie or a corpse. Their faith allows them to get divine power from the spiritual existance of their church, of their beliefs, but these things are greater than just their faith alone. If it only took faith alone to create divine power, then there would be no cleric class and no religions, since you could just as easily get power from faith in whatever you want regardless of its existance. The Sun is a source of power according to the core rules; it has clerical domaign, much like Good, Evil, Travel, War, et. al. And if you say that worshipping a shoe is fine with you, well your Eberron campaign is much different in feel and them than any I've seen. Sounds more like Eberron meets Discworld. So, again, the idea that the sun has power is enough to grant power to it's worshippers.But they don't. The vast majority of ther clerics of Vol do not worship Vol or the mark of death, or the dragon prophesies, or any of that. They don't even know it exists. They only believe that the religion has power, and that by following it, they can gain power. What the religion is based upon doesn't matter. The idea that its a divine shoe is no better, and no worse, than worshipping vampires and zombies.
Gurv 01-06-05, 10:07 PM	As described on page 35 of the EberronCampaign Setting, it is possible for a cleric to have no god and still perform divine magic. This is not, however, the same as having no beliefs; it still requires a strong commitment to an ideal or a philosophy. The cleric needs to devise his own system of belief and explain how it justifies the domains he has selected, and the DM always has the authority to disallow a combination of domains. The power of faith is the source of divine power. I agree that having faith in an old shoe is somewhat different than having faith in a more solid concept. In fact, I agree that anyone worshiping a shoe is a loonie. But the fact remains that should someone gain enough faith in the shoe (unlikely), spellcasting ability has the potential to manifest as a result. The clerics of the Blood of Vol gain their power from their strong belief in the power of blood, and so forth. Erandis is not their god: she does not grant them power. Most of them do not even know of her existance, nor does she know of each of theirs. As I understand it, the beliefs of the BoV are older than Erandis herself. They were actually the traditions of the House of Vol, now all but extinct.
Gurv 01-06-05, 10:42 PM	That has got to be the best tie-in I've seen yet Gurv. Nice job. What I really like is it makes creative use of pre-ordained material tying them together. The guy in the prison just has to be something important to Karrnath and it's king and what concerns the king the most, Vol, and the fact that the person in the prison must be some important figure tied to history. The one thing I want to know is do the dragon's know of Erandis d'Vol's lich existance? Thank you. Tie-ins are one of my specialties. I love being able to do that. Personally, I think that the fact that an elf maid brought up to believe in the Undying Court is unlikely to fall for a vampire king after a brief courtship. Sounds like a spy to me. But not a spy for Vol. Too obvious. But how do you think Kaius got his hands on an heir of Vol anyway? Hmm... Something Edymnion said strikes a point I've tried to make before in regards to the various 'unknown factors' in Eberron. If you do things right, you never have to decide what is 'true'. The discussion we are having currently about the nature of the gods never has to be resolved. Since no one on Eberron can be absolutely sure about the gods or the afterlife, there is no reason to decide whether they exist. Clerics continue to work, and no one knows why. The clerics point to gods, faith, and old shoes; sceptics point to nebulous energy sources, extraplanar stand-ins, and so forth. Since they don't know, we don't need to know. One of my players said to me: "So, what is your take on the Eberron gods? Do they exist in the game you run or not?" To which I answered "You don't know."
Sarlax 01-06-05, 11:57 PM	Then where did all the half-elves come from? Even considering the fact that in Eberron they are generally descended from other half-elves and are pretty much their own race, if elves had a great prejudice about species-mixing there wouldn't be any half-elves at all. As the elves of House Phiarlan and the other scions of Aerenal spread across Khorvaire, they encountered the current occupants of the land: humans whose ancestors had traveled from Sarlona in search of riches and opportunity. The humans were fascinated by the elves. Many coveted the fey beauty and arcane secrets of the travelers, and many of the vagabond elves married into human guilds and noble families. Most elves saw this as a long-term investment. The elves were accustomed to looking centuries ahead, and having learned of the short human lifespan, an elven spouse had an excellent chance of inheriting control of family resources. The Khoravar (the half-elves) were bred as long-term investments by the elves. Like Erandis d'Vol, they were created to serve a function rather than out of love.
Edymnion 01-07-05, 02:50 PM	The power of faith is the source of divine power. I agree that having faith in an old shoe is somewhat different than having faith in a more solid concept. In fact, I agree that anyone worshiping a shoe is a loonie. But the fact remains that should someone gain enough faith in the shoe (unlikely), spellcasting ability has the potential to manifest as a result.Yes, thats what I'm going for. Worshipping a shoe is going to mean you are a complete and utter nutcase. And likely, if you're crazy enough to think a shoe is god, then you aren't going to have a sound enough mind to really devote yourself to the cause of the... um... shoe. But, on the extreme off chance they are of sound mind, and they really do believe, there is the potential of being able to cast spells because of it. Which is something that is entirely impossible in normal D&D, but potentially possible in Eberron.
Isran_Imrador 01-09-05, 07:20 PM	i say you talked a little about it but way do YOU think happen to him? 1. Still going strong..not likely even dragons dont live that long... 2. Killed by the elvs and or the dragons! i like the crossbreding fraction theory.. 3. Something else...? ( He got nutts, fund a old shoe from a giant as he became the first cleric of the Divine Shoe! lolol) He might have other children or grandchildren not killed for his crime and the would be Erandis`s Half brother or sisters...there blood might be good for recreating her line....?