Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Charles Phipps 08-29-05, 09:44 PM	Steampunk? Higher? Your opinion.
Edymnion 08-29-05, 09:50 PM	I wouldn't call it magitech at all. Its not advanced technology via magic, its magic instead of technology. Sure, we've got airships, but they're not aerodynamic flying craft, their essentially water boats with a few modifications. And I personally disreguard the elementally powered submarine as being something that actually exists in my game. But anywho, I'd say its no differant at all than it is in Greyhawk or anywhere else. In fact, the ONLY thing Eberron has that other settings don't have is the Lightning Rail and the Creation Forges. Everything else would drop into any other setting without a hitch.
Charles Phipps 08-29-05, 10:01 PM	I disagree... I would argue that Keith's interpretation is that magic simply replaces science because the physical laws are different. In other settings, science exists but magic is also prevalent. Eberron has magic function as science but the reality is far different in the way it works.
Edymnion 08-29-05, 10:17 PM	Well, when I hear "magitech" and "steampunk", I picture magic guns, magic mecha suits, steampowered chainsaws, etc. None of which you'll find in Eberron. I honestly can't think of one thing, other than the lightning rail and the warforged, that Eberron has that you couldn't drop into Faerun without people batting an eye at it.
Charles Phipps 08-29-05, 10:24 PM	Well, when I hear "magitech" and "steampunk", I picture magic guns, magic mecha suits, steampowered chainsaws, etc. None of which you'll find in Eberron. I honestly can't think of one thing, other than the lightning rail and the warforged, that Eberron has that you couldn't drop into Faerun without people batting an eye at it. The only difference between magical mecha suits and warforged is one is sentient and thus the former is needed. Honestly, I do wonder what would be the difference if guns or lightning devices replaced enchanted crossbows. Dragonshards also fill the role of steam.
Edymnion 08-29-05, 10:35 PM	The only difference between magical mecha suits and warforged is one is sentient and thus the former is needed.Except the idea of a mecha suit is not something someone in a period setting, even Eberron, would think of. A protective suit that enhances your abilities is just armor with enchantments. You don't have Iron Man, you've got some guy in mithril full plate with +2 Str, +2 Dex, and built in Wings of Flying. Honestly, I do wonder what would be the difference if guns or lightning devices replaced enchanted crossbows.I know I wouldn't play in it. I play this game to get away from idiots with guns in the real world, not to drag them into the game. The setting that has a gun in it, even a magical gun, is a game I refuse to play in.Dragonshards also fill the role of steam.Not really. They do nothing more than put a name to the as-before-unnamed misc ingrediants used to craft magic items normally. They don't replace anything from the standard game, they just say "Okay, this sword costs 2,000 gold to enchant that has nothing to do with the sword itself. A big chunk of that price is now these crystals." Its no differant from saying a potion looks like a holy wafer in the game. Just a flavor change.
Sir Elton 08-29-05, 11:00 PM	Steampunk? Higher? Your opinion. They are on par with the Antikythra Mechanism, Eusebius' ingenius water clock, Hero of Alexandria's inventions, Galen's studies of Anatomy and Medicine, the Ancient Roman War Machine, and the Ancient Roman shipbuilding industry.
DBlizzard 08-29-05, 11:23 PM	I disagree... I would argue that Keith's interpretation is that magic simply replaces science because the physical laws are different. In other settings, science exists but magic is also prevalent. Eberron has magic function as science but the reality is far different in the way it works. "Magitech" is supposed to be magic that is studied and treated as science is in "our world". Honestly, I don't see much of that parallel in Eberron. Magic is treated pretty much as it is in other settings. Sure there are some different magic items floating around, and low level magic is more common. However, except maybe for House Cannith dealing with the warforged (which is more magi-tech-war, than magi-tech), you don't really see that sort of treatment.
Charles Phipps 08-29-05, 11:27 PM	"Magitech" is supposed to be magic that is studied and treated as science is in "our world". Honestly, I don't see much of that parallel in Eberron. Magic is treated pretty much as it is in other settings . I don't understand or even comprehend how this is viewed.
UnkemptSage 08-30-05, 12:42 AM	When I hear the word "Magitech", I think of the Magitek suits from Final Fantasy VI. Those were really more mechanical than magical, even if their source of energy was magic. For Eberron, I'd say that it's more like Magic Equipment, or something like that, but that's really for an argument on terminology, and I don't think that's what Charles was asking about. I remember reading somewhere in the ECS that some magical devices in Eberron exist that allow for things similar to technology that didn't exist in our world until the 19th century (read 1800s, for those that are confused). Trains and steamships are two examples. As far as submarines go, I was actually watching something on the History Channel last night about a crude submarine that was operated by the Confederacy during the American Civil War (and sunk after successfully completing its mission), so I'd say that a magical equivalent of a submarine is not an out-of-this-world idea. Of course, there are a few examples of things that never developed in our world, like airships. I'd say it's mostly medieval technology, with some magical advancements thrown in for good measure.
taski 08-30-05, 02:38 AM	Here is what technology means to me.. Main Entry: techˇnolˇoˇgy Etymology: Greek technologia systematic treatment of an art, from technE art, skill + -o- + -logia -logy 1 a : the practical application of knowledge especially in a particular area. Note in the definition of the word, there is no level of advancement specified. The word technology covers everything from stone tools to trains. For me, it even includes casting grease on the floor your enemies are standing on because you have prior knowledge that says they will lose their footing and fall down. A book is technology because it was made for a practical purpose (memory aid). My chair is technology. It was built for a practical purpose. I can't sit at this height without something to sit on. Somebody built this chair because he knew lots of people like to sit above the floor, and he applied his knowledge of carpentry to build it. Technology. An arcane spell written in a wizard's spellbook is technology. It was written there for a practical purpose. The wizard cannot prepare a spell if it is not in his spellbook. He wrote the spells in because he knew his limitations, and applied his knowledge of writing to copy down some spells. Technology. Technology does not mean modern or sci-fi. It's not a genre or a time period. It's an ancient Greek word, invented long before steam power became widely used. Technology only means "I know something and want to do stuff with that knowledge," and technology is the "stuff" that comes out of it. That's it. Nothing more. Nothing less. Okay, now that I've got that pedantic rant out of me, I can move on to the actual topic of the thread. I'd say Eberron's level of technology, at least in the Five Nations, Zilargo, and Aerenal, is fairly high. They understand how to use magic for practical ends. Mind you, there's no mention of them using "magic" simply as a source of power like steam was used in the 1800's or electricity in the 1900's, with it all moved around by mechanical technology. I wouldn't say they have a high level of mechanical technology. They haven't needed it. Why learn how to pump water all the way accross Korranberg when you can just create water on the other end? The Well of Endless Water (or whatever) accomplishes the job, and its much easier to find a good enough artificer in Zilargo to build this one item than it is to find the expert who can plan the whole system and make sure it gets built correctly. So, an artificer makes this Well of Endless Water, using his knowledge of artifice, for an undeniably practical purpose. Another piece of technology. Not mechanical technology that runs on magic. Magical technology that runs perpetually with no need for fuel. Mechanization seems pretty low in Eberron. They don't have to use a lot of gears, valves, pumps, pullies, and so on, when they can make perpetual-motion items and perpetual-creation items. Mechanical parts always run down with use, but wonderous items never do. Arcanization, or the use of applied magic, is high in Eberron. Magical items are technology, and they are used in great number and accomplish things people could not do without them. I would call that advanced. Eberron technology is very different from Earth technology because we don't know how to make perpetual motion or how to create matter from nothing. They do, and their technology is different because of that, but it's still the practical application of knowledge.
camble 08-30-05, 03:00 AM	"Magitech" is supposed to be magic that is studied and treated as science is in "our world". Honestly, I don't see much of that parallel in Eberron. Magic is treated pretty much as it is in other settings. I would have to disagree. In most settings PC's don't have access to airships as a means of transport. There is no such thing as a Eldritch Machine's witch breaks all the rules for item creation you don't even have to be a spell caster or artificer to make one and You don't have a whole class devoted to making and keeping those magical doodad's running I think the most important thing about the setting that sets it apart though is that it takes into effect the economical aspects of magic in a setting and there reprocusions. Most settings keep those wizard types in there high towers doing the creepy things wizards do.
ekomega 08-30-05, 03:41 AM	I'd say Eberron's level of technology, at least in the Five Nations, Zilargo, and Aerenal, is fairly high. I disagree. The fastest vehicle in existence in Eberron (besides teleport) can only travel 30 miles per hour. It runs on tracks that must be very well maintained or the cart will derail (like trains). After 187 years of having the lightning rail, they haven't improved it beyond 30 miles per hour. No advanced track designs, no speed increases, nothing. Or, if they have improved, the original must've been garbage. Real world trains have been around for less time, and have developed so far beyond the original trains you can't even compare the two. This is mediocre technology for Eberron. Their only flying vehicle is less than 10 years old, and is basically a sea-faring boat that can fly. No redesigns, no innovation. Just bind an elemental to a boat. Interesting idea, poorly implemented. Within 10 years of the Wright Brothers' first flight, aviation in the real world jumped by leaps and bounds. Within 15 years, it was unbelievable, with planes entering combat in WWI. Sharn is a major invention. However, the ability to create it is entirely limited by location and environmental factors (the Manifest Zone). They can't replicate Sharn anywhere else. This expresses a huge limit to their technology. Skyway is an achievement, the application of a minor technology on a mass scale (Tenser's Floating Disk). But even that shows their lack of technology, because the floating disk is ill-suited for the task given it, especially when expanding it to the grand scale. Other magics, new magics, would serve Skyway better, perhaps keeping it afloat like Arcanix or that Giant castle in Xen'drik, without relying on the Manifest Zone, and without being a giant disk. Warforged are great technology. Which was stolen from ancient times, and pieced together without a full understanding of how and why. Cannith managed to jury-rig a forge together to make a lot of warforged, but still lacks understanding of important parts of the process. All of these examples make a few things clear. Eberron has a low level of technology compared to reality, but a high level compared to Faerun (or wherever). But it seems the people of Eberron settle with little innovation, little development, and stagnation of ideas. They don't adapt. They don't even come up with their own ways of doing things, instead relying on schema from Xen'drik and gnomes to bind elementals (which was learned from Drow). They are limited by situations and environment, by conditions that are easily overcome by more advanced technology. They never had an Industrial Revolution, nor a rapid growth of technology, but instead moved slowly forward with the same ideas. This expresses a general lack of fundamental understanding of the forces of nature and magic in Eberron, that drive their technology. No one is figuring out the "physics" of fire spells, to harness raw elemental energy. Instead they just move their foundries and forges into the depths of the earth where there is lava and free energy. Technology is bringing the forces of fire to you, where you want it, and controlling it. They don't have that. They don't seek to understand more, to control more, to create more. With understanding comes more understanding, and breakthroughs, and more understanding, and so on. Eberron doesn't seem to have this. Someone has to dig up a ruin for technology to go anywhere. If anything, Necromancy is the only thing that has developed in Eberron the way other technologies have in reality. A lot of effort has been put into Necromancy. So I'd say their technology is very limited. Somewhere between Renaissance and pre-Industrial Revolution, despite the abundance of magic and the ability to shape the world around them supernaturally. Even with a broad definition of "technology", Eberron still isn't doing well. They barely have any understanding to apply, or any knowledge to work with. They seem to get along winging it and putting together what they have, without investigating further or really understanding anythng. If they had this knowledge and understanding, it should have taken them a lot farther.
camble 08-30-05, 05:05 AM	I would say that there level of tech is not stagnet just hampered by the rules of the game. Say It is possible to do every thing you say. What is to prevent a pc from doing the same with items he creates. Especially since the level of npc's is kept lower then in other settings a PC in most cases would be a trail blazer in the field. As with any technology you have to work with what is at hand. You can't decide that the laws of physics suck and you don't want to use them anymore. To keep with your train anaology. The trains speed is advanced with our control of the basic understanding of taking stored energy and turning it into motion. at first coal and later electricity. In D&D these advances can follow a similar progression with spell level and what the spell level is capable of. Making advancements cost more to create then it is worth at a certain level. I would say the most economical solution would be found in most cases. Would it be possible to make a faster train at the current level of technology certainly. But the question might be would it be worth the cost and who would build it especially if it would be necesary to advance the conductor stones themselves a daunting and costly undertaking. What advantage would the house of passage have in doing this if they are currently capable of meeting current demands of instant transportation through its marked teleporting members. Something that is impossible today. That is a minimum of 250 miles instantly with the right magical devices that can go much farther assuming they don't have the prestige class witch would also advance it. Lastly this is not the real world it is a setting based on some ones imagination. To make dramatic over simplifications on the world and its people is kind of silly. Keith did a good job in making a world that has a lot of depth and thought to it but did he do every thing right as if this had been a real living breathing world of course not. He is only human.
taski 08-30-05, 06:34 AM	I'll concede to ekomega that technological advancement has been slow, considering the times between advancements as written in the ECS. It shouldn't have taken decades after binding elementals to carts to figure to bind them to flying ships. Oh well. However, I believe the intent of the design was not to imply the slow-wittedness of humanoids, but to show that the people do indeed innovate with the magic at hand. Their slowness to develop I think is actually from the fantasy genre's love for making everything damn old and stagnant. I don't know why, but it really seems to have a distaste for innovation. That the people of Eberron innovate at all is a bit of a novelty for fantasy games. Eberron does stretch expectations to an extent, but (by the thinking of a sales manager) if a world is to be well-recieved, it shouldn't completely break expectations. Thus the humanoids of Eberron are unfortunately cursed. For my game, we took the idea that the people innovate with magic and ran with it, "fixing" a few minor things and adding in a few minor items. We've adjusted the speed of the lightning rail to be more around 55-65 mph, and the airships get up to 100 mph in good conditions. We've also added in a few other inventions, like sinks that create water, space heater/coolers, clothes that clean themselves, and so on. So I will admit that my picture of Eberron is not 100% by the book.
cmanos 08-30-05, 06:44 AM	The setting that has a gun in it, even a magical gun, is a game I refuse to play in. What more is a Wand of Magic Missiles than a magical gun?
MysticTheurge 08-30-05, 07:51 AM	What more is a Wand of Magic Missiles than a magical gun? It's a wand. And that's where people get into semantics issues with "magitech." I know when I hear the word I think about steampunk/fantasy hybrids with machines and either 19th century steam works or 20th century electricity. (This is no doubt emphasized by the fact that the OP offered the choices of "steampunk" or "higher.") Eberron's not like that. In Eberron, Keith didn't ask 'what would a magical world be like if it evolved along the exact same lines as our world' (which is how you get magitech in my opinion). Eberron is a world that evolved the way a world with magic would evolve. They've used magic to acheive some of the results that real world people did with other methods, but they're all fundamentally different. Just as a wand is different from a magical gun. It's the difference between Lightning Rail and a Steam Engine, and some people may consider it fairly minor, but it's different enough that I don't think of Eberron as having magitech, just as having magic.
Grymar 08-30-05, 09:31 AM	I see the "tech" in roughly mid 19th Century terms, with some changes. No gunpoweder, no steampower. But the telegraph is replaced by the House Sivis messengers. You have trains (albiet slow) and other similar devices. I've also made all sorts of other devices, such as refrigeration (using cone of cold) and a type of navigation aid that only works for Lyrandar heirs. I don't want guns, cannons, or steam engines in my game. They aren't needed any more, that entire direction of science is pointless when you can instead explore elemental binding or magecraft.
Sir Elton 08-30-05, 09:33 AM	For my game, we took the idea that the people innovate with magic and ran with it, "fixing" a few minor things and adding in a few minor items. We've adjusted the speed of the lightning rail to be more around 55-65 mph, and the airships get up to 100 mph in good conditions. We've also added in a few other inventions, like sinks that create water, space heater/coolers, clothes that clean themselves, and so on. So I will admit that my picture of Eberron is not 100% by the book. Just remember that Eberron is probably a "What if J.K. Rowlings' Wizarding World from Harry Potter did exist among us muggles?" scenario. In Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets I was amazed at how the Weasleys used magic for everything. Washing dishes, sweeping the floor, cooking food, etc. Magic in the Wizarding World of J.K. Rowling is very prosaically used for a lot of mundane tasks. Eberron's tech is very advanced, somewhere on par with the Roman Empire at it's hieght; with the Antikythra Mechanism and so forth. They just innovate with magic instead. Now they may not have a coal-powered Archimedian Water Screw, which sparked the Industrial Revolution in our world; but they do have the Dragonmarked House of Cannith and the Creation Forges. Eberron probably did have an Industrial Revolution: but it's magic based. House Cannith probably did build an Archimedian Water Screw and bound a Fire Elemental to it in response to Labor demands in Cyre. But what keeps innovation down is that House Cannith has a cartel on innovation. Sure, there are a lot of Wizards working the private sector that don't belong to House Cannith, it's just that . . . like a certain company in the Real World that dominates a certain business . . . House Cannith dominates the advancement of technology. Of course, this assumes that the people of Eberron has an understanding of Calculus; which Archimedes had and Sir Issac Newton and a few other people had to redevelop.
Edymnion 08-30-05, 12:02 PM	As far as submarines go, I was actually watching something on the History Channel last night about a crude submarine that was operated by the Confederacy during the American Civil WarActually, the first submarine that we know of was designed by Leonardo DaVinci back in the 1400's. Along with the first glider and the first helicopter.What more is a Wand of Magic Missiles than a magical gun?A wand that releases a magical ball of force which propels itself unerringly towards it's target. There is no aiming, there are no mechanical/moving parts, it is no differant than a wand of lightning bolt. Although, I would not want to play in a game where wands were even shaped like guns. I do NOT like the idea of guns in a fantasy game, even Eberron, in the slightest way. Use a hand crossbow if you want the feel, but I outright ban anything that even looks like a gunslinger. No guns, no rifles, no cannons. Its hand crossbows, heavy crossbows, and ballistas. I honestly don't give a damn what other people think about this, nothing resembling a gun will *EVER* be in my game, and I refuse to play in any game where the DM allows it. You might as well put in chopped wagons with chrome spinner hubcaps and a thumping stereo system as put guns into the game.
Sir Elton 08-30-05, 12:54 PM	Even Byzantine flame throwers?
sh0 08-30-05, 01:01 PM	You might as well put in chopped wagons with chrome spinner hubcaps and a thumping stereo system as put guns into the game. Edy, don't go and start giving them ideas now! :D
Naudachu 08-30-05, 02:32 PM	Actually it would be interesting to know when wizardry appeared in history. Of course there are the dragons and giants and elves, etc. But we're most likely talking about the current human tech level in Khorvaire. Sure there are the dwarves, gnomes and halflings, but I have the impressions that humans dominate the population (if not as much as Faerun). Gnomes have elemental binding, but this is a closely guarded secret. And the elves and dwarves are more concerned with tradition. So I guess I'm asking, when did magic come to humans? We don't know much about the history of Sarlona. I'm assuming magic first came as Adepts and the occasional Sorcerer. The study of magic, wizardry, must have come much later. This is probably also tied to the beginning of human writing. Of course Eberron may not have developed the same. Humanoids may have been created with full language, speech and writing. If that's the case, there may have not been the same spur of progress when everything is handed to you. The other thing is the tech level of Sarlona and even Argonessen may be drastically different from Khorvaire. Evidence from Xen'drik paints a picture of a low tech society, at least on the surface.
Charles Phipps 08-30-05, 04:29 PM	May I ask what your irrational hatred is from Edmnyion regarding firearms?
MysticTheurge 08-30-05, 05:19 PM	May I ask what your irrational hatred is from Edmnyion regarding firearms? For me, guns don't belong in a fantasy game, that's all really. It'd be like including spaceships and giant robots. Or aliens and cars. Sure you can have things that fill a similar role, like spelljammers and warforged, or illithids and elemental carts, but those are fantasy things while the former are not. Hence: Wand of Magic Missiles acceptable, Gun not.
UnkemptSage 08-30-05, 07:24 PM	Generally, I have to agree with the no guns thing. It just doesn't feel right in a D&D game. I might allow cannons and things like that if I really wanted a pirate campaign or something, but for the most part I don't like the idea of guns. It just doesn't seem right.
Thrincold 08-30-05, 07:30 PM	I agree with the no gun thing. Mostly a gun would be a ranged touch attack. No armor is going to stop a lead shot. That ruins the whole of the game right there. Then flavor-wise well why? There have been threads on this before so I won't beat it to death but face it, I can cast fireball, or UMD it off a wand, why use this stinky thing that fires lumps of metal at people? Anyways I see the tech in Eberron as a parallel to steam punk. Lots of neat stuff around that is impossible in the real would, but with analogues.
Charles Phipps 08-30-05, 07:30 PM	Generally, I have to agree with the no guns thing. It just doesn't feel right in a D&D game. I might allow cannons and things like that if I really wanted a pirate campaign or something, but for the most part I don't like the idea of guns. It just doesn't seem right. I only allow guns in Eberron (and Ravenloft) and they're lightning guns. Oddly, they're more advanced than the standard smokepowder guns in my game that both must be reloaded. Lightning guns do 5d6 damage and have five shots Pistol 3d6 damage Rifle 4d8 damage Guns just fit the setting better than crossbows, which don't make any sense. I also remove wand of magic missles 'automatic hit' to make them more like machine guns. I mean seriously, with no guns, how will you be able to do a Gun Sword? HMmmmmm? ;-)
Edymnion 08-30-05, 08:43 PM	For me, guns don't belong in a fantasy game, that's all really. It'd be like including spaceships and giant robots. Or aliens and cars.Exactly. Its a fantasy game. If you want guns, play d20 modern, or any of the other systems. Guns and fantasy gaming, for me at least, are oil and water. They don't mix. I *never* want to have to deal with a PC threatening to "bust a cap" in an NPC, going pulp fiction on somebody, or anything else. They have no more place in my games than do F-16s and antimatter plasma grenades.
Charles Phipps 08-30-05, 08:50 PM	Exactly. Its a fantasy game. If you want guns, play d20 modern, or any of the other systems. Guns and fantasy gaming, for me at least, are oil and water. They don't mix. I *never* want to have to deal with a PC threatening to "bust a cap" in an NPC, going pulp fiction on somebody, or anything else. They have no more place in my games than do F-16s and antimatter plasma grenades. Except for final fantasy, pirate games, Shogun, and plenty of other occasions. Eberron is the WORST campaign for ever saying that something shouldn't belong in it. Eberron says upfront "Let's throw out the pseudo medieval garbage that's been every campaign setting thus far. Let's have some pseudo-Victorian and 1920s setting!" Final Fantasy mixed with Gangster films. If I'm going to have a Halfling Al Capone then why shouldn't he have an equivalent of a Tommy Gun? Same with those Riedran Nazis, they need a luger equivalent or a Submarine. It's Pulp my friend, not Tolkien. Eberron- For people sick and tired of the La'Morte D'Arthur
Sir Elton 08-30-05, 09:00 PM	Byzantine Flamethrowers would definitely fit. Either throwing Greek Fire, Napalm, or projecting a Bound Fire Elemental's ranged attack. :)
Ashaman Joe 08-30-05, 09:09 PM	The cost limits of magic mean that it's not practical to apply it to every little facet of life. Magic is generally going to cater to the middle class and up, and large industries. As such, the really rich families will have many magical conviniences, such as beverage coolers, magic to regulate house temperatures, and other luxury magic. Middle class houses may have magic items relating to their proffession. The wealthy artisan may have a self-heating forge, an important clerk might have a pen that never runs out of ink. Lower class families generally can't afford even these items, but will benefit from magical industries--dock workers can use levitating cranes, the desperately sick can head to a House Jorasco facility, and workers in heavy industry will probably have magic that assists in hard or dangerous work, and there's always the Everburning Lanterns lighting their streets. In short, the magic is out there, but the truely wonderous (and expensive) items aren't going to see as much use as the practical, economic ones. The next part is a bit of a tangent, so feel free to skip it if you want. I don't see the 5 Nation's speed of progress as a problem with innovation. Instead, I think they're limited by manpower. In the real world, pretty much anyone can apply the technology on hand to produce results. In Eberron, they have to apply magic, which isn't open to everyone. Even the people who can work magic, such as minor Magewrights, can't readily use the more powerful magics. For example, say a House Cannith magicist works out a long magical equation that he thinks would allow him to siphon planar engergies into a shaped metalic matrix (Cannith speak for a useable metal object, like a weapon). He can't go down to the forges and just say, "Hey buddy, do this." First off, they probably don't have anyone down there who can wield enough magic to make it work, and their schemas and creation patterns don't help with new inventions. For his theory to actually get put into action, he has two options: create an eldrich machine to do the work for him, or find a mage powerful enough to work the magic. Either way, it's not happening quickly. However, once he gets his eldricht machine or creation pattern, he can churn out those planar swords with a magewright on hand to watch over it. This is why creation patterns, manifest zones, etc are so important--magical production relies on it.
UnkemptSage 08-30-05, 10:56 PM	Saying guns don't belong in a fantasy setting is kind of like saying swords don't belong in the ocean. Just because the typical idea of a sword isn't something you'd expect to see underwater, doesn't mean there can't be any. "Fantasy setting" is a very broad term that can include anything with fantasy elements, not just medieval fantasy. However, I personally don't like the idea of having guns in Eberron. The system wasn't designed for it, as demonstrated by Charles Phipp's damage dice. It's a bit too much damage, if you ask me. Furthermore, if you have guns, what's the point of having bows and crossbows? A gun is a lot easier to use. Just ask anyone that's ever fired a gun and a bow. There's no comparison.
Charles Phipps 08-30-05, 11:02 PM	Well the reload time is ridiculous, in my games crossbows and bows are reloaded instantly. In my games, rifles and guns are known as "idiot weapons" at least for day to day use and with good reason. A man who fires one takes his life into his own hand. They're also banned to non-soldiers and only really useful for entrenched individuals. Lightning guns are frightening devices though.
camble 08-31-05, 01:59 AM	If anyone has ever seen firefly in that TV show there where "laser guns" but almost every one ran around with normal fire arms like shotguns and pistols and for good reason the weapons where insanely exspensive only the truelly rich could afford one let alone the ammunition of one. I like the idea of the lightning gun and i think it fits the setting but i don't believe every tom dick and harry should have one since the weapon would be even more expensive then a wand of lightning bolts and only effects one person from the discription a maximum of 5 times per day. Witch isn't really that over powered
yrogerg 08-31-05, 09:28 AM	As some of the posters have pointed out, I would really say that Eberron's technology level, absent magic, is only about at Rennaissance-level. What the typical uses of the term magitech mean are high-level technology with moving gears and motors and the like, *powered* by magic or magical energy. A good, non-Final Fantasy example is Blood Omen 2, in the Legacy of Kain series of games. Here, it might as well be steampunk, just with every instance of the word "steam" replaced with "Glyph", and turned glowing and green. By contrast, most of Eberron's technology comes in the form of unsophisticated applications of existing magic. Your end result is that you get a lot of the conveniences you would have in the modern world: "trains", "cars", "airplanes", and the like. But ask yourself how many moving parts any of these have, and you can see why this type of technology is different than, say, FF-style magitech. Entirely different approach. Using magic to *power* science is different than treating magic *as* a science, or using magic *instead* of technology.
yrogerg 08-31-05, 09:46 AM	I only allow guns in Eberron (and Ravenloft) and they're lightning guns. Oddly, they're more advanced than the standard smokepowder guns in my game that both must be reloaded. Lightning guns do 5d6 damage and have five shots Pistol 3d6 damage Rifle 4d8 damage Guns just fit the setting better than crossbows, which don't make any sense. I also remove wand of magic missles 'automatic hit' to make them more like machine guns. :twitch: You know, except for the fact that there's really no reason for anyone in the setting to ever think up something like a gun, and that crossbows definitely match the level of non-magical technology much more appropriately. Also, that silly "balance" thing. Honestly, most of the higher-level magical applications or the more sophisticated ones come from the Giants or are directly related to the presence of manifest zones. Beyond that, it really is the same technology level as any other setting. Gah. I can't even begin to respond to this post. :banghead:
DoveArrow 08-31-05, 10:24 AM	Well the reload time is ridiculous, in my games crossbows and bows are reloaded instantly. In my games, rifles and guns are known as "idiot weapons" at least for day to day use and with good reason. A man who fires one takes his life into his own hand. They're also banned to non-soldiers and only really useful for entrenched individuals. The reload time for a gun is the same as loading a light or heavy crossbow. It takes a move action. They are an idiotic weapon, though. Take the pistol, for example. You take a -4 penalty to use them unless you have exotic weapon proficiency (firearms), you can only fire them 50 ft., you have to roll a natural 20 to get a critical and they cost 250gp to purchase. Call me crazy, but that seriously blows.
Edymnion 08-31-05, 12:11 PM	The reload time for a gun is the same as loading a light or heavy crossbow. It takes a move action.:rofl: Oh man, you have no freaking clue how long it took to reload a non-modern firearm, do you? It would be a move action to load a new clip into a modern 9mm. Even as recent a gun as a civil war era rifle would take 30-45 seconds, minimum, to reload, assuming you had cheater devices (a special frame that held shot and powder in premeasured charges that had everything ready to go, and all you had to do was put it in). Thats 5-8 rounds to reload a gun. Go back a little farther to the flintlocks, and those things had 47 steps that you had to go through to reload them and prepare them to fire again, and that was considered the quick-reload manual (seriously, look it up, french military guidelines for reloading flintlocks). Ever see classic pictures of pirates with two pistols tucked behind their belts? They didn't have two so they could shoot with both hands, they had two because they were essentially one shot items. You fired one, then threw it away because the reload time was measured in minutes, and you simply couldn't do that in battle.
Charles Phipps 08-31-05, 12:38 PM	As stated, it's a house rule that crossbows can be reloaded without taking a full round to reload to further seperate them from guns. Also, the Firefly "laser gun" influence is pretty much where I got the idea. I don't see a Balance issue personally where enemies may have flying armored warships and the equivalanet of the Apparatus of Kwash (who we have a name for...MECH) Eberron loses practically all of it's flavor if it's 'just' as advanecd as Forgotten Realms or Dragonlance, it becomes a hopelessly backward people with no scholarship or thinking potential whatsoever. Hell, even RAVENLOFT (also a gun setting) becomes higher than Eberron.
ekomega 08-31-05, 03:56 PM	:rofl: Oh man, you have no freaking clue how long it took to reload a non-modern firearm, do you? It would be a move action to load a new clip into a modern 9mm. Even as recent a gun as a civil war era rifle would take 30-45 seconds, minimum, to reload, assuming you had cheater devices (a special frame that held shot and powder in premeasured charges that had everything ready to go, and all you had to do was put it in). Thats 5-8 rounds to reload a gun. Go back a little farther to the flintlocks, and those things had 47 steps that you had to go through to reload them and prepare them to fire again, and that was considered the quick-reload manual (seriously, look it up, french military guidelines for reloading flintlocks). Ever see classic pictures of pirates with two pistols tucked behind their belts? They didn't have two so they could shoot with both hands, they had two because they were essentially one shot items. You fired one, then threw it away because the reload time was measured in minutes, and you simply couldn't do that in battle. Gunmen in the Civil War were able to fire a round every 15 seconds, with weapons that had a separate powder and bullet. There are people now who can do that with those guns, and they only use them for fun. I would say reloading a modern 9mm is a free action. Anyone proficient in its use can change clips and still fire 2 shots in 6 seconds. I don't think guns fit with Eberron. There's no need for a gun with wands of magic missile or lightning bolt around. Especially with eternal wands. With Eternal Wands, the military can pick any idiot magewright and throw them into battle and succeed. Guns would require specialized training, materials, and tactics. Wands make guns useless.
camble 08-31-05, 03:59 PM	Charles if you called it a rod of lightning blast it would be ok. The problem people seem to have is that it says :eek: gun. I picture a device that looks like a short fencing foil. Maybe the length of a dagger straped to the belt. It could even serve as a punch dagger in a pinch.
Cutlass 08-31-05, 04:28 PM	IIRC the "standard" rate of fire for trained Civil War era muzzleloading riflemen was three rounds per minute. Ergo, one shot every 3 DnD combat rounds. That rate of fire was made possible by the use of paper "cartridges" which carried a premeasured amount of gunpowder and the actual bullet. In use one removed the bullet from the "cartridge", then dumped the powder down the muzzle of the weapon and rammed the paper itself down the muzzle with the ramrod so that the "cartridge" became the "wad". Then the bullet would be rammed down the muzzle (remember to remove the ramrod) . **** the rifle, attach the percussion cap to the nipple and you're good to go. Different people will obviously have different tastes as to what constitutes good "fantasy" as far as they are concerned. However, the widespread development and use of gunpowder weapons technology was a key factor that helped to eventually bring an end to the tactical dominance of knights in armor and fuedal systems of government. As a result, when I go out to set up a "fantasy" scenario, I usually rule out firearms. If mass produced firearms are present, then combat will look very different from the sort of swords and sorcery effect that I'm looking for.
camble 08-31-05, 06:00 PM	I can inderstand what you mean Cutlass about the introduction of the gun killing knights in armor but the wizard fills a similar role. Heck even magical items can do the same thing. I don't see The addition of one interesting magical item as to unbalancing. In fact it is logical that as the war roled on ways of bypassing armored troops would have been designed for non spell casters. This would probably be in the hands of a Lieutenant on the front lines.
Charles Phipps 08-31-05, 07:01 PM	Charles if you called it a rod of lightning blast it would be ok. The problem people seem to have is that it says :eek: gun. I picture a device that looks like a short fencing foil. Maybe the length of a dagger straped to the belt. It could even serve as a punch dagger in a pinch. Then it wouldn't be a gun. Rods, Wands, and the like do not fit Eberron unless they are part of weird alchemical equipment. Eberron wizards do not look or act like Gandalf, they look like Techno Wizards from B5 at worst and more often look like Lovecraft heroes. Magicians=Pure Scientists Artificiers=Inventors With the occasional Freakish Warlock. It's an issue of flavor to me that my Wands of Magic Missles look like Gatlin guns or tommy guns.
Edymnion 08-31-05, 07:10 PM	I would say reloading a modern 9mm is a free action. Anyone proficient in its use can change clips and still fire 2 shots in 6 seconds.Which would be the same as saying it takes a MEA. A free action would require them to be able to reload the weapon, then move 30 feet, and still be able to get off at least 2 shots, in 6 seconds.
Thrincold 08-31-05, 07:31 PM	Ok, just to butt into the reload debate from a military guy. It takes a move equiv action to reload an M-16, M-4, or 9mm type weapon. The reasoning is that you have to grab the magazine from its place of storage, drop the exsisting mag(the free part) and slap in the new mag. Now drawing a weapon isn't automatically free for a reason. The same for modern fire arms ammo clips. For older weapons it really depends how far back you want to go as to how long it takes to reload. More on topic I've stated before that my campaign is an elemental/ magical steampunk where the average joe has as much as every other midevil schmuck. The rich and adventerure types got alot of cool toys though.
camble 08-31-05, 07:33 PM	Then it wouldn't be a gun. Rods, Wands, and the like do not fit Eberron unless they are part of weird alchemical equipment. Eberron wizards do not look or act like Gandalf, they look like Techno Wizards from B5 at worst and more often look like Lovecraft heroes. I was actually more comenting on the fact people have a hang up with the "lightning gun" itself. Seeing as it is really no different then say a rod of thunder and lightning or a strange looking wonderous item.
UnkemptSage 08-31-05, 08:00 PM	I was actually more comenting on the fact people have a hang up with the "lightning gun" itself. Seeing as it is really no different then say a rod of thunder and lightning or a strange looking wonderous item. Which would also mean it would be really expensive and that the majority of people couldn't afford one. Besides, what's wrong with keeping it the way it's described in the book? I haven't seen any pictures of artificers carrying guns around. I have seen pics of artificers carrying wands, however. Anyway, it's just a matter of flavor, really. Just because I don't like the idea of guns in Eberron, doesn't mean that someone I'm never going to meet or play with can't put guns in their game. Who am I to judge?
camble 08-31-05, 09:05 PM	I can appreciate that this would not be a weapon of the masses but then wands are in the same boat
ekomega 09-01-05, 12:11 AM	Which would be the same as saying it takes a MEA. A free action would require them to be able to reload the weapon, then move 30 feet, and still be able to get off at least 2 shots, in 6 seconds. Well, I have always thought that doing all those things in 6 seconds was a real stretch anyway. The shooting and reloading, sure. The moving and reloading, sure. The moving, changing weapons and swinging? Anybody tried looking at someone 30' away, then running at them and swinging a sword a couple of times in 6 seconds? I haven't, but it sure seems like it'd take more time than that.
MysticTheurge 09-01-05, 09:20 AM	I think for Eberron in particular, the reason I wouldn't add guns is because there's no logical reason for them to be developed. Cannith made eternal wands, which serve much the same purpose in war as guns would, only with infinitely more variety, in that you can cast fireball, cloudkill or even cure light wounds with one, as opposed to just lightning bolt. Eternal wands are the "guns" of Eberron and so I don't see any need to create another kind of gun to be used there.
(Psi)SeveredHead 09-01-05, 10:13 AM	I was actually more comenting on the fact people have a hang up with the "lightning gun" itself. Seeing as it is really no different then say a rod of thunder and lightning or a strange looking wonderous item. The people of Eberron have never seen a gun. Their scientists have never conceived of one. So why would their lightning weapon look like a gun? It would look like a wand or a rod.
Cutlass 09-01-05, 12:24 PM	Well, I have always thought that doing all those things in 6 seconds was a real stretch anyway. The shooting and reloading, sure. The moving and reloading, sure. The moving, changing weapons and swinging? Anybody tried looking at someone 30' away, then running at them and swinging a sword a couple of times in 6 seconds? I haven't, but it sure seems like it'd take more time than that. A long time and many more pounds ago than I care to contemplate I was a pretty good collegiate fencer. There is a delay of 1/10 of a second built into the electrical scoring system that is used for keeping track of touches in epee. A good fencer, knowing that he is going to get hit, can turn that into a double touch (both fencers score against each other at the same time) more often than not. FWIW my biggest critique of the 6 second DnD combat round is that it is far too long. In fencing, attacks are carried out in tenths (1/10) of seconds or less. When you're dealing with good fencers it's usually less, and that's why modern fencing uses electrical scoring systems when it can. The blades are usually moving faster than they eyes of the people judging the contest can follow. Sabre fencers often compensate for that by going for mask hits, as even though the blade can't be seen, the sparks generated by a good hit against an opponent's mask can be. A fleche attack, which is basically where one fencer charges another, can easily be carried out in around a second or so. In addition to doing collegiate fencing, I also did some fighting in the Society for Creative Anachronism. One of the stories that was going around when I was active concerned a videotape somebody had made of one of the better fighters in the region in action. One frame showed the gentleman in standard en guarde position using sword and shield. The second frame, 1/20th of a second later showed the gentleman's opponent reeling backwards from the blow that had been given and the gentleman almost back into perfect en guarde position. That's with people in reasonable approximations of medieval armor using swords that if anything would be slower than the real thing because the rattan would have more wind resistance. The weight of the rattan SCA legal fighting swords vis a vis their live steel counterparts is pretty much the same. Just my two cents for whatever anybody thinks its worth.
camble 09-01-05, 04:27 PM	The people of Eberron have never seen a gun. Their scientists have never conceived of one. So why would their lightning weapon look like a gun? I did mention I thought it would look like A short fencing foil. Similar to a punching dagger. Giving it a handle like a gun but adding a hand guard and its use as a secondary weapon. I believe it is keeping with the feel of eberron. call it a lighting dagger, foil, gun what ever it only changes the name not what it can do. And appologies to Charles having kidnapped your idea and holding hostage :)
Charles Phipps 09-01-05, 05:37 PM	The people of Eberron have never seen a gun. Their scientists have never conceived of one. So why would their lightning weapon look like a gun? It would look like a wand or a rod. Says who? They make a handheld crossbow, they can concieve of a gun.
Sir Elton 09-01-05, 05:49 PM	Says who? They make a handheld crossbow, they can concieve of a gun. Charles, I completely agree with you. Human beings are human beings, they would have the same psychology everywhere. They can conceive of a gun. The one thing these people are mad about however, is that *gun* crosses over the boundaries between science fiction and fantasy. They want their fantasy to stay will defined in a certain boundary. However, I don't think they realize that Eberron does bust this particular boundary. Eberron treats magic as technology. Thus it can be defined as science fantasy.
camble 09-01-05, 06:26 PM	AMEN :angel: