How aware is a bound elemental? [Archive] - Wizards Community

How aware is a bound elemental? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
NathanD
07-07-07, 10:50 AM Hey everyone, it has been awhile since I was on the boards, but my Eberron game is starting up again, and I have started up a second one. I am glad to see familiar names still posting, but it is disappointing that the same things are being brought up again and again. Anyway, I am planning on taking the Windwright Captain PRC listed in the Explorer’s Handbook, and part of the description has gotten me thinking. How aware is a bound elemental? I understand that while suppressed, it is entirely enclosed inside its Kyber Dragonshard, but how aware is it while not suppressed? I would think that it would have some awareness of the item it is bound into, as in an awareness of the airship and would know it the ship was damaged in some way. How far away can it see? How would someone go about increasing the sensor range, and providing maps to the elemental?

Any comments would be welcome
Edymnion
07-07-07, 11:33 AM I'd say it can't "see" anything. Its entire little world is completely contained within the dragonshard.
NathanD
07-07-07, 12:33 PM That was my initial thought as well, the information I had read so far gave me the impression that the elemental was merely a power source.

The reason that I was asking is the PRC describes a lesser and greater Shipbond. It sounds like the bond may be in essence waking up the elemental, letting it sense the world through the captain.

Thanks for posting Edymnion, I was hoping you would comment.
Neofish
07-07-07, 02:11 PM The in the Tales of the Last War, Ari Marmell's stroy, The flight of Righteous Indignation, it would seem that bound elementals can "feel" the entire ship and sense anything on the ship aswell, as though the airship is just an extension o thier being. It would also seem to imply that an elemental can hear what's going on too, because it knew some of the crewmen's names. Although, novels are not canon, I think it's a good representation of what an elemental feels.
Alex_
07-07-07, 07:02 PM Considering that even the most compliant elemental bound into a vessel still requires input from a pilot/operator/commander, I would think they don't have much perception regarding what's going on. They're simply trapped/bound within the shard, and when instructed to do something by whoever operating the vehicle they do it, with little idea where they're going, why they're going there, or anything of the like.
Charles Phipps
07-07-07, 07:04 PM I always tend to view elementals as Non-sentient and really think like "fire."

Do you have a problem with fire in your fireplace?

A fire elemental is happy when it burns things.
Mouseferatu
07-07-07, 07:17 PM The in the Tales of the Last War, Ari Marmell's stroy, The flight of Righteous Indignation, it would seem that bound elementals can "feel" the entire ship and sense anything on the ship aswell, as though the airship is just an extension o thier being. It would also seem to imply that an elemental can hear what's going on too, because it knew some of the crewmen's names. Although, novels are not canon, I think it's a good representation of what an elemental feels.

True, but...

(Spoilers for "Flight of the Righteous Indignation")
Remember that the elemental aboard the Indignation had been warped and, basically, "awakened" by the mists surrounding the Mourning. So the abilities it shows cannot necessarily be extrapolated to the elementals on other ships.

That said, my assumption is that most bound elementals are aware of what's going on around them, but they don't much care. As Charles just said, they don't think like organic beings, so long as they continue to burn, or blow, or whatever, they've no problems.

Otherwise, you run into the question of whether binding elementals is equivalent to enslaving a truly sentient being. And while that question can make for some cool story potential, and DMs are free to do with it what they choose, I think it's best for the setting if the "core" answer is "No, it's not the same thing."
Charles Phipps
07-07-07, 07:36 PM Yeah, I tend to think there's different classifications of elementals. Most elementals are as smart as the Elemental Plane of Fire's equivalent of a horse. You break horses just like you bind elementals.

If you wanted to bind a Djinn, that's a different story.
Alex_
07-07-07, 09:07 PM That said, my assumption is that most bound elementals are aware of what's going on around them, but they don't much care. As Charles just said, they don't think like organic beings, so long as they continue to burn, or blow, or whatever, they've no problems.

Otherwise, you run into the question of whether binding elementals is equivalent to enslaving a truly sentient being. And while that question can make for some cool story potential, and DMs are free to do with it what they choose, I think it's best for the setting if the "core" answer is "No, it's not the same thing."

This IS a concern in Eberron. Elementals can act up and be resistant to commands. However to most people, it's like an animal being lazy or wild.

There's an organization in Zilgaro (the name eludes me at the moment) mentioned in Magic of Eberron who view Elementals as sentient beings, and make negotiations with them rather than binding them forcibly. They view elementals as sapient entities worthy of respect/compassion/all that. However, their views are not mainstream.
Charles Phipps
07-07-07, 09:10 PM Zilargo Gnome: Do you want to become bound?

*Fire elemental gurgles, belches flame, crackles*

Zilargo Gnome: I think that was a yes.
DragoonDarkfire
07-07-07, 09:12 PM Zilargo Gnome: Do you want to become bound?

*Fire elemental gurgles, belches flame, crackles*

Zilargo Gnome: I think that was a yes.

Translated: What? Oh no Mr. Gnome I have five starving embers to feed. I cannot-
Alex_
07-07-07, 10:29 PM Comprehend languages probably makes things easier. The Gnomes are the race most closely associated with language. They can also naturally speak with certain animals, which are also generally seen as non-intelligent/sapient by the majority of those on Khorvaire.
Hellcow
07-07-07, 10:37 PM In my opinion, not much... and their consciousness is very different from that of a human. In "Principles of Fire" (in Dragons: Worlds Afire), the main character does question the elemental that was on board a destroyed airship, and it is able to report the presence of other elementals (Azers) on the ship. But in my mind, the key is that things like that really stand out to it. A fire elemental essentially perceives the world in various shades of burning, and is largely content if it is being allowed to burn. The presence of elementals, outsiders, etc stand out... while the difference between humans is essentially negligable.

This also means that if free, they'll cheerfully burn up anyone or anything in their way... because again, the difference between organic creatures is negligable. it's all a question of whether you're burning or not, and they'd rather you were.

At least, that's my preference. ;)

(With that said, if you develop a special relationship with an elemental based on a class feature, that means it's come to recognize you in a special way. It still may not be able to tell your friends apart - but YOU now stand out.)
Edymnion
07-07-07, 11:27 PM Yes, just because they are intelligent doesn't mean they are sentient.
Or, to put that in a more appropriate manner, that their sentience is not the same as our sentience. They have a completely alien mindset, beyond that of even the Daelkyr. They aren't really individual creatures so much as they are the basic elements given mobility and will. Do they have hopes and desires? Sure, but a fire elemental's desire is to do what all fire does, burn things. It's hopes involve burning things in the future.

I mean, we don't even know if these things have a concept of time. The stones making up an Earth Elemental could be millions, potentially even BILLIONS of years old. Does something that is literally immortal, that has essentially always been and always will be, even have a notion of time? Does it forever live just in the moment and not think of the past or the future? Or does it have a notion of time, in a geologic scale?
LazyNinja
07-08-07, 11:00 AM I had wondered about this, particularly in the context of a Paladin of Freedom, sworn to free any enslaved beings.

I like the concept of elementals not really caring where they are or what form they're in as long as they get to burn, blow, crash, or... um, smash?

But I do recall two previously bound fire elementals encountered in the adventure Shadows of the Last War. They assume the PCs are there to rebind them and fight to the death rather than let that happen. The guidance text for the DM actually describes being bound as "prison." However, I have no idea how canonical this is, though it's the sequel to the Forgotten Forge adventure printed at the end of the ECS. Keith wrote the adventure, so maybe he can clear it up?

Of course, this could allow some interesting character development. How "enslaved" do different characters view the elementals? While a fighter may have no problem riding a horse into combat, a druid may see it as immoral to force an animal to fight. (Animal companions are, of course, not compelled to join the druid.) Perhaps Genasi view binding as sacrilege.

Characters opposed to elemental binding would need to be in the minority, though, to allow the setting to work. Perhaps there's an Elemental Liberation Front? How do you go about freeing something that's as likely to attack you instead of its former captors? And it's up to the DM to decide whether they're crazy extremists or kind-hearted visionaries.
Edymnion
07-08-07, 12:43 PM Characters opposed to elemental binding would need to be in the minority, though, to allow the setting to work. Perhaps there's an Elemental Liberation Front? How do you go about freeing something that's as likely to attack you instead of its former captors? And it's up to the DM to decide whether they're crazy extremists or kind-hearted visionaries.There is a group like this, actually. I think the information on them is in Magic of Eberron. Basically, its a bunch of gnomes that think along those same lines, that enslaving elementals is bad.
Hellcow
07-08-07, 12:57 PM But I do recall two previously bound fire elementals encountered in the adventure Shadows of the Last War. They assume the PCs are there to rebind them and fight to the death rather than let that happen. The guidance text for the DM actually describes being bound as "prison." However, I have no idea how canonical this is, though it's the sequel to the Forgotten Forge adventure printed at the end of the ECS. Keith wrote the adventure, so maybe he can clear it up?

Bear in mind that the module went through some significant changes in editing; for example, in the first scene, the forces pursuing Elaydren are House Deneith mercenaries employed by another branch of House Cannith, NOT kobolds led by a warforged scout. My recollection was that these creatures were originally some form of living fire spell, NOT elementals (I'm not at the right computer to check my notes). If they were elementals, I certainly don't think they would be in a position to comprehend exactly what happened to them. With that said:
My point is that a bound fire elemental may be content if it is allowed to burn, and that the usual operation of an airship allows this. An elemental forced to lie dormant for an extended period of time - as would be the case with the elementals in Whitehearth, which were tied to a weapon that was only used once - would be frustrated and angry.
A key point here is that the PCs DON'T have the power to bind the elementals - but they're incapable of recognizing that. They are essentially responding like this. "Little fleshy creatures caught us. We were prevented from burning. Then we escaped and can burn. If any fleshy creatures show up, burn them first in case they try to stop us from burning again." They don't understand the process of binding. They don't know what their power is being used for. They don't know the difference between these fleshy creatures, and may not even recgonize the difference between a human and a wolf. They know that they disliked the last experience forced on them by fleshy creatures, and they'll try to stop it from happening again.
I'll emphasize again that the key is that running an airship may not be particularly unpleasant - the fact that they are being given a continuous opportunity to exercise their power is soothing. Binding an elemental into an item or form where it CAN'T continuously exercise its power is where it may be angry.

I'll also point out that even a "content" elemental won't be happy if it's released. The point is that Eberron is an EXTREMELY unnatural environment for an elemental. As I said, a fire elemental perceives the world in various states of burning. It's from Fernia, where essentially EVERYTHING is burning on some level or another. Being dropped into the non-burning world of Eberron is an unpleasant shock; its immediate and natural reaction is to start burning things. It's not an evil action. It's not that it hates you. It's that it's trying to set things right. It's DANGEROUS to work with elementals, because happy or not, they don't belong here.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
NathanD 07-07-07, 10:50 AM	Hey everyone, it has been awhile since I was on the boards, but my Eberron game is starting up again, and I have started up a second one. I am glad to see familiar names still posting, but it is disappointing that the same things are being brought up again and again. Anyway, I am planning on taking the Windwright Captain PRC listed in the Explorer’s Handbook, and part of the description has gotten me thinking. How aware is a bound elemental? I understand that while suppressed, it is entirely enclosed inside its Kyber Dragonshard, but how aware is it while not suppressed? I would think that it would have some awareness of the item it is bound into, as in an awareness of the airship and would know it the ship was damaged in some way. How far away can it see? How would someone go about increasing the sensor range, and providing maps to the elemental? Any comments would be welcome
Edymnion 07-07-07, 11:33 AM	I'd say it can't "see" anything. Its entire little world is completely contained within the dragonshard.
NathanD 07-07-07, 12:33 PM	That was my initial thought as well, the information I had read so far gave me the impression that the elemental was merely a power source. The reason that I was asking is the PRC describes a lesser and greater Shipbond. It sounds like the bond may be in essence waking up the elemental, letting it sense the world through the captain. Thanks for posting Edymnion, I was hoping you would comment.
Neofish 07-07-07, 02:11 PM	The in the Tales of the Last War, Ari Marmell's stroy, The flight of Righteous Indignation, it would seem that bound elementals can "feel" the entire ship and sense anything on the ship aswell, as though the airship is just an extension o thier being. It would also seem to imply that an elemental can hear what's going on too, because it knew some of the crewmen's names. Although, novels are not canon, I think it's a good representation of what an elemental feels.
Alex_ 07-07-07, 07:02 PM	Considering that even the most compliant elemental bound into a vessel still requires input from a pilot/operator/commander, I would think they don't have much perception regarding what's going on. They're simply trapped/bound within the shard, and when instructed to do something by whoever operating the vehicle they do it, with little idea where they're going, why they're going there, or anything of the like.
Charles Phipps 07-07-07, 07:04 PM	I always tend to view elementals as Non-sentient and really think like "fire." Do you have a problem with fire in your fireplace? A fire elemental is happy when it burns things.
Mouseferatu 07-07-07, 07:17 PM	The in the Tales of the Last War, Ari Marmell's stroy, The flight of Righteous Indignation, it would seem that bound elementals can "feel" the entire ship and sense anything on the ship aswell, as though the airship is just an extension o thier being. It would also seem to imply that an elemental can hear what's going on too, because it knew some of the crewmen's names. Although, novels are not canon, I think it's a good representation of what an elemental feels. True, but... (Spoilers for "Flight of the Righteous Indignation") Remember that the elemental aboard the Indignation had been warped and, basically, "awakened" by the mists surrounding the Mourning. So the abilities it shows cannot necessarily be extrapolated to the elementals on other ships. That said, my assumption is that most bound elementals are aware of what's going on around them, but they don't much care. As Charles just said, they don't think like organic beings, so long as they continue to burn, or blow, or whatever, they've no problems. Otherwise, you run into the question of whether binding elementals is equivalent to enslaving a truly sentient being. And while that question can make for some cool story potential, and DMs are free to do with it what they choose, I think it's best for the setting if the "core" answer is "No, it's not the same thing."
Charles Phipps 07-07-07, 07:36 PM	Yeah, I tend to think there's different classifications of elementals. Most elementals are as smart as the Elemental Plane of Fire's equivalent of a horse. You break horses just like you bind elementals. If you wanted to bind a Djinn, that's a different story.
Alex_ 07-07-07, 09:07 PM	That said, my assumption is that most bound elementals are aware of what's going on around them, but they don't much care. As Charles just said, they don't think like organic beings, so long as they continue to burn, or blow, or whatever, they've no problems. Otherwise, you run into the question of whether binding elementals is equivalent to enslaving a truly sentient being. And while that question can make for some cool story potential, and DMs are free to do with it what they choose, I think it's best for the setting if the "core" answer is "No, it's not the same thing." This IS a concern in Eberron. Elementals can act up and be resistant to commands. However to most people, it's like an animal being lazy or wild. There's an organization in Zilgaro (the name eludes me at the moment) mentioned in Magic of Eberron who view Elementals as sentient beings, and make negotiations with them rather than binding them forcibly. They view elementals as sapient entities worthy of respect/compassion/all that. However, their views are not mainstream.
Charles Phipps 07-07-07, 09:10 PM	Zilargo Gnome: Do you want to become bound? Fire elemental gurgles, belches flame, crackles Zilargo Gnome: I think that was a yes.
DragoonDarkfire 07-07-07, 09:12 PM	Zilargo Gnome: Do you want to become bound? Fire elemental gurgles, belches flame, crackles Zilargo Gnome: I think that was a yes. Translated: What? Oh no Mr. Gnome I have five starving embers to feed. I cannot-
Alex_ 07-07-07, 10:29 PM	Comprehend languages probably makes things easier. The Gnomes are the race most closely associated with language. They can also naturally speak with certain animals, which are also generally seen as non-intelligent/sapient by the majority of those on Khorvaire.
Hellcow 07-07-07, 10:37 PM	In my opinion, not much... and their consciousness is very different from that of a human. In "Principles of Fire" (in Dragons: Worlds Afire), the main character does question the elemental that was on board a destroyed airship, and it is able to report the presence of other elementals (Azers) on the ship. But in my mind, the key is that things like that really stand out to it. A fire elemental essentially perceives the world in various shades of burning, and is largely content if it is being allowed to burn. The presence of elementals, outsiders, etc stand out... while the difference between humans is essentially negligable. This also means that if free, they'll cheerfully burn up anyone or anything in their way... because again, the difference between organic creatures is negligable. it's all a question of whether you're burning or not, and they'd rather you were. At least, that's my preference. ;) (With that said, if you develop a special relationship with an elemental based on a class feature, that means it's come to recognize you in a special way. It still may not be able to tell your friends apart - but YOU now stand out.)
Edymnion 07-07-07, 11:27 PM	Yes, just because they are intelligent doesn't mean they are sentient. Or, to put that in a more appropriate manner, that their sentience is not the same as our sentience. They have a completely alien mindset, beyond that of even the Daelkyr. They aren't really individual creatures so much as they are the basic elements given mobility and will. Do they have hopes and desires? Sure, but a fire elemental's desire is to do what all fire does, burn things. It's hopes involve burning things in the future. I mean, we don't even know if these things have a concept of time. The stones making up an Earth Elemental could be millions, potentially even BILLIONS of years old. Does something that is literally immortal, that has essentially always been and always will be, even have a notion of time? Does it forever live just in the moment and not think of the past or the future? Or does it have a notion of time, in a geologic scale?
LazyNinja 07-08-07, 11:00 AM	I had wondered about this, particularly in the context of a Paladin of Freedom, sworn to free any enslaved beings. I like the concept of elementals not really caring where they are or what form they're in as long as they get to burn, blow, crash, or... um, smash? But I do recall two previously bound fire elementals encountered in the adventure Shadows of the Last War. They assume the PCs are there to rebind them and fight to the death rather than let that happen. The guidance text for the DM actually describes being bound as "prison." However, I have no idea how canonical this is, though it's the sequel to the Forgotten Forge adventure printed at the end of the ECS. Keith wrote the adventure, so maybe he can clear it up? Of course, this could allow some interesting character development. How "enslaved" do different characters view the elementals? While a fighter may have no problem riding a horse into combat, a druid may see it as immoral to force an animal to fight. (Animal companions are, of course, not compelled to join the druid.) Perhaps Genasi view binding as sacrilege. Characters opposed to elemental binding would need to be in the minority, though, to allow the setting to work. Perhaps there's an Elemental Liberation Front? How do you go about freeing something that's as likely to attack you instead of its former captors? And it's up to the DM to decide whether they're crazy extremists or kind-hearted visionaries.
Edymnion 07-08-07, 12:43 PM	Characters opposed to elemental binding would need to be in the minority, though, to allow the setting to work. Perhaps there's an Elemental Liberation Front? How do you go about freeing something that's as likely to attack you instead of its former captors? And it's up to the DM to decide whether they're crazy extremists or kind-hearted visionaries.There is a group like this, actually. I think the information on them is in Magic of Eberron. Basically, its a bunch of gnomes that think along those same lines, that enslaving elementals is bad.
Hellcow 07-08-07, 12:57 PM	But I do recall two previously bound fire elementals encountered in the adventure Shadows of the Last War. They assume the PCs are there to rebind them and fight to the death rather than let that happen. The guidance text for the DM actually describes being bound as "prison." However, I have no idea how canonical this is, though it's the sequel to the Forgotten Forge adventure printed at the end of the ECS. Keith wrote the adventure, so maybe he can clear it up? Bear in mind that the module went through some significant changes in editing; for example, in the first scene, the forces pursuing Elaydren are House Deneith mercenaries employed by another branch of House Cannith, NOT kobolds led by a warforged scout. My recollection was that these creatures were originally some form of living fire spell, NOT elementals (I'm not at the right computer to check my notes). If they were elementals, I certainly don't think they would be in a position to comprehend exactly what happened to them. With that said: My point is that a bound fire elemental may be content if it is allowed to burn, and that the usual operation of an airship allows this. An elemental forced to lie dormant for an extended period of time - as would be the case with the elementals in Whitehearth, which were tied to a weapon that was only used once - would be frustrated and angry. A key point here is that the PCs DON'T have the power to bind the elementals - but they're incapable of recognizing that. They are essentially responding like this. "Little fleshy creatures caught us. We were prevented from burning. Then we escaped and can burn. If any fleshy creatures show up, burn them first in case they try to stop us from burning again." They don't understand the process of binding. They don't know what their power is being used for. They don't know the difference between these fleshy creatures, and may not even recgonize the difference between a human and a wolf. They know that they disliked the last experience forced on them by fleshy creatures, and they'll try to stop it from happening again. I'll emphasize again that the key is that running an airship may not be particularly unpleasant - the fact that they are being given a continuous opportunity to exercise their power is soothing. Binding an elemental into an item or form where it CAN'T continuously exercise its power is where it may be angry. I'll also point out that even a "content" elemental won't be happy if it's released. The point is that Eberron is an EXTREMELY unnatural environment for an elemental. As I said, a fire elemental perceives the world in various states of burning. It's from Fernia, where essentially EVERYTHING is burning on some level or another. Being dropped into the non-burning world of Eberron is an unpleasant shock; its immediate and natural reaction is to start burning things. It's not an evil action. It's not that it hates you. It's that it's trying to set things right. It's DANGEROUS to work with elementals, because happy or not, they don't belong here.