Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Radazim 09-28-07, 09:34 PM	So, I'm looking at the ECS, and it's not clear how big Sharn actually is. There are a few references that some towers are a mile high or more, so you might put Skyway at about 6000 feet. But what about horizontal scale? If you look at the maps, the city base is roughly a circle. But what's the diameter of that circle? 1 mile? 5 miles? 10 miles? There is no scale listed on any city map. One of the reasons that I ask is that I've had this idea of trying to build a scale model of Sharn. Such a task is most likely far beyond my meager skills, but it would be fun to see what I could cobble together. While I appreciate guesses (educated or wild), I wonder if anyone can cite a page reference or anything. Maybe the Hellcow himself has posted? I tried searching the forum but either end up with 200+ results or zero. :confused:
Radazim 09-28-07, 10:22 PM	Okay, the population of Sharn is 211,850. Using Manhattan as a starting point, it has a population density of 66,940 residents per square mile. And virtually all of its residents live within a couple hundred feet above the surface, almost none below. Sharn might have an even higher population density based on area, given the vertical stratification, or it might be lower since it's a somewhat medieval fantasy city, but at least Manhattan is a starting point. Manhattan has 1.5 million people living in 23 square miles. 23 square miles works out to a circle of diameter of about 5 miles. If we look at various possible population densities for Sharn, we get certain rough diameters for the size of the city: 100,000 -> 2.12 sq mi -> 1.6 mi diameter 67,000 -> 3.16 sq mi -> 2.0 mi diameter 50,000 -> 4.24 sq mi -> 2.3 mi diameter 30,000 -> 7.06 sq mi -> 3.0 mi diameter 20,000 -> 10.6 sq mi -> 3.7 mi diameter Either way, even if we went with a VERY low population density (that doesn't seem to make sense given how Sharn is both a dense urban center and vertically stratified), we aren't approaching 5 miles in diameter. So, I'm thinking that Sharn is probably about 3 miles across, which means half the density of Manhattan, but really it's even less because of the vertical stratification. I suppose that makes sense because there's a lot of empty space between towers. Interesting thought experiment. Comments are welcome.
CannibalSmith 09-29-07, 02:45 AM	According to my calculations Sharn is 0.7 miles across. Previous discussion on this topic: yet another sharn maps thread (http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-708393) Sharn maps help (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=438900)
Yakman 09-30-07, 01:54 PM	Manhattan of today is probably a bad example. The island formerly had far more people than it has now. Something better might be Manhattan of 1910--the island had 2.75 million inhabitants, over a million more than today. But even then, Sharn would be more dense--it's hyper vertical, whereas many buildings in manhattan are only one or two or three stories. I would argue that Sharn is very, very, very small. And very dense. In terms of 'on the ground' density, it's probably close to the manhattan of 1910. so it's packed, but you can move around in practical terms. if we were to look at the density by area, it's gotta be three or four times that of any modern city, at the least, just because there is no sprawl--everyone lives on top of everyone else.
mosaic 09-30-07, 03:18 PM	Great discussion, and I applaud all brainstorming and thought experiments; I always find seeing people's thought processes interesting. So here's what I see so far ... I would argue that Sharn is very, very, very small. And very dense. On the large end we have ... So, I'm thinking that Sharn is probably about 3 miles across ... And on the small end ... According to my calculations Sharn is 0.7 miles across. I found this in another thread ("Sharn buildings: in or out?"), talking about the bases of the various towers: So, if you've got a building that's like a half mile in diameter ... I've got to agree that even in a manifest zone, the base of a mile-high tower has got to be pretty big. If it really is 1/2 a mile across, and the city is only 0.7 miles across ... then there's only one tower! Even at 3 miles, there would be less than 30 mammoth towers. I haven't read the novels, nor have I memorized the Sharn guide, but what do you all think? What is the size of the tower bases and how does this affect any discussion of the size of the city?
OctaviusIII 09-30-07, 04:04 PM	Not all the towers have their own base - Sharn branches as it reaches the top. As well, it seems as though the Lower Wards actually have some open streets, and as you go down the layout becomes more angular rather than round. It also seems that some towers have multiple bases. Second, from my map, Sharn should be between 20 and 30 miles across, which makes things even more interesting as far as population goes. (My method of measurement was that I stuck the map on Google Earth, figured out the distortion, and measured the city's dot. When overlaying the Sharn maps themselves as best they'll fit, the measurement tools say that there is a lot of space between the towers' tops in the Upper Wards, and that they can get as wide as a mile in diameter from there.)
Nundahl 09-30-07, 04:24 PM	I thought I'd throw down with my two cents, but I wanted to offer a disclaimer, I've not done the math, this is purely a perspective response. I'll be honest, not many books can do it, but the Sharn Maps turned me off, big time ... I can't stand the book because of its layout. That being said, I run a version of Sharn that is sort of a hybrid of what has been said before me. If you rely on population rules you may dislike my ideas, because I inflate the population of my fantasy worlds heavily, with the advent of Magical Healing (and a hospital house) far less people die in a medieval setting and far more flock to cities to avoid the dangers of the wilderness. Due both to a healthy stream of willing customers and the desire of the Twelve to build political favor, architects and engineers are common professionals and great impossible structures are made possible (this says nothing of Magewrights and Artificers). Five Great Towers, each at the base just short of a mile in diameter, make up Sharn. The towers are odd shaped, not perfect circles, but the city is still thought of as five columns. These columns stretch up into the sky climbing approximately one mile, but further below the deep cogs travel deeper than is truly known. Also including the cliffside "dock-towns" within the city, Sharn in my world view is far too large for a mere 288 thousand people. Each of the complex cylinders host dozens of districts attached at shelves on the outer rings of the grand gothic towers. Within the main towers, you can find the haphazard and chaotic construction of the "latticework". Criss-crossing bridges, self contained smaller towers and structures, a work so thick that looking up from the bottom, you will never see the light of the sun or the shimmering Ring of Syberis. This is the product of hundreds upon hundreds of builders laying construction without communication as much as it is the fault of rebuild after rebuild of the lower levels to ensure proper support for those above. Enormous bridges connect the Great Towers, each a highway in their own right. On might enter the City at Malleon's Gate and step into the Lattice-Work to board a magically fueled lift high up into the tower, only to exit and hike across a great bridge to the desired tower. Or perhaps visiting a quiet "shelf district" to catch an Orien Sky Coach and fly to the intended destination at the height of one of the massive structures. At the cropping of each Great Tower there is an extension of the Latticework, a top level view that almost forms a cap to each Tower, but leaves some strategically spaced openings however as zoning laws are in full effect for these districts. Last, the Skyway floats above the city in a slow and short rotation, and operates much as a small town in its own right, reserved for the particularly wealthy. Homes can be found on every tier of the city, and often in unexpected places. The Cogs districts are the homes to many dug-out ground hovels of the Goblins and other races, above that the "latticework" is filled with homes built on the city's many bridges. Within the walls that form the Great Towers great hollow rings form circular districts made possible by magical struts that keep the entire structure from collapsing in on itself. Private neighborhoods are often build by investors on "shelf" districts or the large bridges. It is not uncommon to find the clinging pods of the homeless attached to the Great Towers or the smaller districts. Makeshift huts hung loosely wherever those in need can find suitable, under homes, attached to bridges, dangling thousands of feet in the air. I think I'll cut myself here, I have a lot more to say, but I've rambled on far too long. I hope I've helped in some way at least in suggesting that the population of Sharn is A) Much higher than the books suggest and B) Given logical reasons why.
OctaviusIII 09-30-07, 05:17 PM	I hope I've helped in some way at least in suggesting that the population of Sharn is A) Much higher than the books suggest and B) Given logical reasons why. Agreed, but then again the whole continent is underpopulated.
Radazim 09-30-07, 05:49 PM	Well, it may be underpopulated but that actually works to the advantage of the "points of light" attitude of 4th Edition. I don't have a problem with that. I think we're just reading too much into the portion of the maps that purports to show actual towers and bridges. I say we take off and nuke the place from orbit. (It's the only way to be sure.) I'm going to keep the outline of the five plateaus plus Cliffside, keep the population estimates and district descriptions, and throw away the maps themselves. I'm going to post a list of assumptions, but first I need to pop into Excel and run some numbers. Back in a flash...
OctaviusIII 09-30-07, 08:21 PM	Well, it may be underpopulated but that actually works to the advantage of the "points of light" attitude of 4th Edition. I don't have a problem with that. I think we're just reading too much into the portion of the maps that purports to show actual towers and bridges. I say we take off and nuke the place from orbit. (It's the only way to be sure.) I'm going to keep the outline of the five plateaus plus Cliffside, keep the population estimates and district descriptions, and throw away the maps themselves. I'm going to post a list of assumptions, but first I need to pop into Excel and run some numbers. Back in a flash... If you want national and continental numbers, the dataset is already in the link in my sig. As for Sharn... well, that'll be your thing.
Radazim 10-01-07, 12:01 AM	Okay, so I just wasted a good part of the day on an interesting intellectual exercise. Without going into all the crazy boring details, I decided to adjust the population density by the socioeconomic class of the ward. Along the way I came up with a nice binary progression for income by socioeconomic class that feels "realistic" using both 1sp/day income and adjusted to modern currency. But I digress... My reasoning: A relative few wealthy individuals can not only buy higher, but they can buy bigger. Thus one would expect the upper class wards to be less densely populated. In the end I kept the individual plateau populations the same, but I redistributed each plateau population towards the lower class wards. What we end up with is this: Population - As Written - Revised Upper Central 8,400 3,591 Middle Central 10,400 9,575 Lower Central 11,600 17,235 30,400 Uper Dura 17,400 9,494 Middle Dura 18,200 16,067 Lower Dura 19,800 29,839 55,400 Uper Menthis 7,800 2,773 Middle Menthis 9,000 5,176 Lower Menthis 8,400 17,252 25,200 Upper Northedge 4,200 1,529 Middle Northedge 5,400 6,116 Lower Northedge 6,200 8,155 15,800 Upper Tavick's Landing 13,200 4,105 Middle Tavick's Landing 16,000 16,421 Lower Tavick's Landing 17,600 26,274 46,800 Upper Cogs 6,200 6,200 6,200 Cliffside 8,800 8,800 8,800 Skyway 1,200 1,200 1,200 What does this have to do with the size of Sharn? Well for one it allows for tapering towers which makes at least some sense, even if we're talking about enchanted towers in manifest zones. Having these numbers, which I'm quite happy with, I can now start thinking about how many towers are in each ward, how those towers are distrubuted amongst the ward's districts, and how the population is distributed amongst the towers. I'm going to assume that the height of towers in each district is a function of the socioeconomic class of that district. I can further complicate things by looking at the social class of all three districts in a "tier." For example, the classes of the "tier" of Korranath/Ambassador Towers/Myshan Gardens is upper/upper/middle, respectively. On the other hand, the "tier" of Oak Towers/Oakbridge/Stoneyard are upper/middle/lower. One might expect the former tier to have higher towers than the latter, since the "average" social class is higher. Calculating that out mathematically is arbitrary and needlessly complex, but it's fun, so I think I'll do that. So, it looks as though my first example would have the highest "score" so that tier would have the tallest towers in Sharn. On the other hand, Overlook/Underlook/Precarious and Clifftop/Tumbledown/Malleon's Gate are both lower/lower/lower, so those tiers would have the shortest towers in Sharn. Other tiers would have towers somewhere in between, based on an "average" of their social class. Still, it will be interesting to see how I can fit all of these people into their respective "tiers", since I don't have demographics at the district level, only the ward level. I think I'll also need to use a similar sort of population density function to distribute the population within the wards. (My god, this is turning into a theoretical demographics thesis! Well, it's fun even if it's of no particular value other than to me.)
Radazim 10-01-07, 12:19 AM	At a quick glance, I'm starting to arrive at the conclusion that there are almost certainly less than five towers in any given district "tier", and there is a good chance that the answer is more like one or two. Hmm. I'll sleep on it for now.
Radazim 10-01-07, 11:50 AM	If we were to assume that each of the five main plataeu's population is roughly evenly distributed among its tiers, then we get between 5000 and 8000 people in each tier. Central: 6 tiers @ 5067 = 30,400 Dura: 7 tiers @ 7914 = 55,400 Menthis: 5 tiers @ 5040 = 25,200 Northedge: 3 tiers @ 5267 = 15,800 Tavick's Landing: 7 tiers @ 6686 = 46,800 Upper Cogs: 3 districts @ 2067 = 6,200 Cliffside: 4 districts @ 2200 = 8,800 Skyway: 2 districts @ 600 = 1,200 At some point I'll try to come up with an arbitrary but systematic way to distribute the population within each ward among its tiers based on social class, but for now let's just look at the averages, which are a good starting point. If we have 5000 to 8000 people living in each tier, with at least half that population living in the lower district, what does it mean for the number of towers in that tier? For this analysis, I'm going to ignore the possibility that the towers branch or merge, and assume that tier is made up of a fixed number of individual towers connected to adjacent towers by bridges and walkways at various heights. Using tiers in Menthis and Dura as our extremes, we have upper/middle/lower populations of: Menthis: 555/1035/3450 Dura: 1356/2295/4263 How many towers does it take to provide a place for these people to live, work, shop, and play, assuming (conveniently) that each tier is self-sufficient and most people spend most of their time within their own tier? Hmmm. Obviously we need to make a ton of assumptions, including how much interior space is required for everyone, and how much tower structure is needed to enclose and support that interior space. The mind boggles! Trying to balance "fun and interesting" with "reasonably realistic" is obviously very subjective. If each tower could accommodate the needs of 1000 people on average, then we'd need almost 200 towers in Sharn. If each tier had but a single tower, there would be 28 towers in the five plateaus, plus Cliffside and Skyway. I'm curious what people think so far? Other than "wildly overcomplicated". :)
maollelujah 10-01-07, 02:36 PM	Remember Sharn's population includes only Adults. If one throws in children it could double the population numbers. Add iternerate and illegal residents one might push the population to 450,000 or more. Personally I've cut the 1 mile high sillyness to about 600 feet, which is still pretty high, with three major layers. It makes it more reasonable.
CannibalSmith 10-01-07, 03:13 PM	Remember Sharn's population includes only Adults. Why do you think so?
OctaviusIII 10-01-07, 08:02 PM	Well, let's use population density in, oh, Paris, and use that as the density per 60 feet of vertical space. According to Wikipedia, that's 20,433/km^2 per 60 feet vertical. For an average height of 600 feet and a city the size of Washington, DC, Sharn would have a population of 36 million. For an average height of a mile, the city would have a population of 318 million. Let's chop this down a bit, then. If it were only 1 square mile, the 600 feet would be 326,928, and the mile high would be 2.8 million.
Radazim 10-01-07, 08:11 PM	I have no problem with the assumption that Sharn's towers, unlike modern day residential apartments built of wood and sheet rock, are made of stone blocks and have a very large ratio of structure to occupied space. Manifest zone or no, we're not talking about steel reinforced concrete or carbon fiber composite. We're talking about blocks of stone. We also can assume, at least at the middle and upper levels, that there is a considerable amount of open space. Especially if you don't buy the idea that the bases of the towers all blend together at ground level, which I don't. If you imagine relatively sparse but impossibly tall towers with considerable space between them, spanned by impossibly long bridges and walkways, that allows for a much lower population density than if you imagine, unlike the first 60 feet of Paris above ground, densely packed urban buildings with only the widths of the streets between them. I'm happy to let Sharn have 5000 foot tall towers, especially in the upper class tiers, but those towers are going to be mostly stone and relatively few interior rooms, shafts, tunnels, and passages. They'll be spaced rather far apart and will be fatter at the base and narrower at the tops, as well. I just need to find time to work out the numbers.
OctaviusIII 10-01-07, 08:43 PM	Well, the reason I chose Paris was because it was built in the 1800s and because modern cities have lower density than they used to. Anyway, I suppose that what's needed is more of a lower-middle-upper population density table. Let's put each as 1/3rd the vertical space and scale things accordingly. Let's also cut out a quarter of Paris's density and put that as the density of the lower ward. As for the middle ward, let's cut out half the density, and the upper wards should be around only a quarter the density of Paris. Also, let's set aside 15% of the city's area to account for the crevaces between the plateaus. This lowers the livable area to .85 square miles, for a mile, or 52.19 square miles for DC. At an average of 600 feet, the total population is now 138,944 (if the square mile) or 13.8 million if DC. If average height is a mile, it's 1.2 million for the square mile or 121.5 million if DC.
mosaic 10-01-07, 10:53 PM	Radazim, Octavius, you guys are awesome!
Radazim 10-01-07, 11:09 PM	I'm not exactly following your math or approach, but that's okay. I think my approach is going to be this: I have already estimated the average population of each of the 28 "tiers" within Sharn's five plateaus, plus the three single-level districts. Each of the 28 tiers accommodates 5000 to 8000 people, averaging 6200 per tier. Converted to square miles, your Paris population density is about 52000, while the Manhattan number is something like 67000. Let's call it 62000 people per square mile for convenience. Using 62000, the average tier would need 0.1 square miles to accommodate 6200 people. That gives Sharn's plateaus (excluding Cliffside, Skyway, and Lower Cogs) a total area of 2.8 square miles plus the chasms. Add in a bit of area for the chasms and Cliffside, and what if we conveniently ended up with about 3.14 square miles. ;) That would in turn give us a radius of exactly one mile, or 2 miles in diameter. I realize that we're using population density numbers for cities that are not composed of towers approaching a mile in height, but again, if we assume that there is more open air than tower volume, and that the towers themselves are more stone than usable space, I can live with the idea that Sharn is two miles across. How many towers per tier? How many people per tower? Hmm. Perhaps in another post...
OctaviusIII 10-02-07, 03:09 AM	I'm not exactly following your math or approach, but that's okay. *snip* Very nice! Here's my approach: First, Sharn is a very vertical city, and the livable volume matters just as much as the livable acreage on the ground - in other words, population per cubic mile rather than per square mile. Thus, we need a city with a known average height as well as a known square mileage. Paris, as a very flat city, works well for this. Its height cap is 66 feet on wide streets and 59 feet on narrow. 60 feet seems like a happy medium. Its population density is known as well. Let's convert that into square miles: 2.2 million in about 65 square miles means 33,008 /mi^2. If we convert that into people per square mile per foot of vertical space, you arrive at 550.1. Back in Sharn, I think it’s safe to assume that the lower, middle, and upper wards all take up one third of the vertical space of the city. Going by the low estimate of average vertical space in Sharn, each level has 600ft/3 or 200 feet of vertical space. Right now, our equation is [density per sp. mi. per ft]×200×area = population per level, or D×200×A=P. Radazim’s assumption is that there is less livable space in Sharn for each square mile of built area than in Paris, and I agree. He also assumes that there is decreasing density as one goes up, and I agree with that too. So, we need to add those variables (let's call them V) into our equation. Our equation becomes V×D×200×A=P. Let’s assume that V is 0.75 for the lower wards (the lower wards are 75% the density of Paris), 0.5 for the middle, and 0.25 for the upper. Plugging in our numbers, let’s say for the lower wards, we get 0.75×550.1×200×A=P. Lastly, we have that pesky ‘A’. We have a conservative estimate, that the city is only 1 square mile, and a more liberal estimate, that it’s the size of a small-sized real city, and I thought Washington, DC (at 61.4 sq. mi.) would be an appropriate fit. For simplicity’s sake, let’s go with the 1. Our formula for the lower wards is now 0.75×550.1×200×1=P. Here, P=82,515. If we do the other formulas and add up the results, we get a total population of 165,030. If we set aside 15% of the area of Sharn for the crevices (you can just add this as a variable into your equation), our population drops accordingly, to a final number of 140,275. That number is a bit higher than that of my previous post due to rounding. (Colors added for readability.) edit: Coincidentally, if we go by the ECS population of 200,000, that means that Sharn is just about 1.4 square miles
maollelujah 10-02-07, 08:12 AM	Originally Posted by maollelujah Remember Sharn's population includes only Adults. Why do you think so?Why do you think so? In the Generating Towns part of the DMG (pg. 137, table 5-2) Population is given as "Adult Population". It also states that the nonadult population will range from 10% to 40% of this figure. It is possible that even up to 50% of the population could be 16 and under.
Radazim 10-02-07, 08:16 AM	Yeah, we're both taking a circuitous route to get there. I think my approach is: Take the published population numbers as canon, use modern population densities as a guideline, use those to back out the area of each plateau, then see if we can come up with a way to spread those people out among vertical towers (instead of surface buildings) in a way that doesn't strain credulity too much. I finalized my redistributed numbers for each tier based on the social class of each district, assuming population density decreases with increasing social class. Admittedly, it completely ignores the individual district demographic details provided in the Sharn sourcebook (how many of each kind of building) but maybe someday I'll do an audit... :) Here they are, in spoiler blocks to save space: Dura 55,400 Clifftop 3,517 Tumbledown 3,517 Malleon's Gate 3,517 10,552 Highwater 879 Broken Arch 879 Old Keep 3,517 5,276 Hope's Peak 879 Hareth's Folly 3,517 Gate of Gold 3,517 7,914 Overlook 3,517 Underlook 3,517 Precarious 3,517 10,552 Redstone 879 The Bazaar 3,517 Callestan 3,517 7,914 Daggerwatch 879 Stormhold 879 The Stores 3,517 5,276 High Hold 879 Rattlestone 3,517 Fallen 3,517 7,914 Northedge 15,800 Shae Lias 310 High Hope 1,239 Longstairs 4,957 6,506 Oak Towers 310 Oakbridge 1,239 Stoneyard 4,957 6,506 Crystal Bridge 310 Holdfast 1,239 North Market 1,239 2,788 Central 30,400 Platinum Heights 515 Tradefair 2,061 North Towers 2,061 4,637 Korranath 515 Ambassador Towers 515 Myshan Gardens 2,061 3,092 Korran-Thiven 515 Sovereign Towers 2,061 Boldrei's Hearth 4,122 6,698 Mithral Tower 515 Dawn Gate 2,061 Vallia Towers 2,061 4,637 Skysedge Park 515 Sword Point 2,061 Olladra's Kitchen 4,122 6,698 Highest Towers 515 Dragon Towers 2,061 Granite Halls 2,061 4,637 Menthis 25,200 Ivy Towers 1,096 Warden Towers 1,096 Forgelight Towers 1,096 3,287 Seventh Tower 274 Cassan Bridge 1,096 Downstairs 4,383 5,752 University 274 Everbright 274 Center Bridge 2,191 2,739 Deniyas 1,096 Smoky Towers 2,191 Torchfire 4,383 7,670 Platinate 274 Little Plains 1,096 Firelight 4,383 5,752 Tavick's Landing 46,800 Silvergate 240 Tavick's Market 960 Terminus 3,840 5,040 Pinnacle 960 Cornerstone 3,840 Wroann's Gate 3,840 8,640 Twelve Pillars 960 Greywall 960 Cogsgate 3,840 5,760 Copper Arch 960 Dancing Shadows 3,840 High Walls 3,840 8,640 Dalan's Refuge 240 Deathsgate 3,840 Dragoneyes 3,840 7,920 Oceanview 240 Little Barrington 960 Black Arch 960 2,160 Sunrise 960 Kenton 3,840 Foundation 3,840 8,640 I'm thinking that there are only 2-4 towers per tier, which changes my visual image of Sharn a bit, but it actually makes creating a usable map (and ultimately, a scale model) practical.
Label 10-02-07, 04:27 PM	Have you looked the skycoach fares? It says it's 1sp per mile, and that a run from Lower Tavick to Upper Dura is 6sp... so a 6 miles diagonal.
Just_some_Evil_Wizard 10-02-07, 05:10 PM	A skycoach might not be able to travel the direct route. The distance travelled to cross a town most likely is not equal to the city's diameter.
Label 10-02-07, 05:30 PM	Maybe not but it's an other guideline...
Radazim 10-02-07, 08:11 PM	Have you looked the skycoach fares? It says it's 1sp per mile, and that a run from Lower Tavick to Upper Dura is 6sp... so a 6 miles diagonal. So, with 1 mile tall towers, that would imply about a 4.25 mile diameter. I'm still not buying it. (No offense!) Based on population density calculations, there's almost no way that Sharn is larger than 2 miles in diameter if the population is 200,000. Even 2 miles in diameter is a stretch requiring an awful lot of air between towers and towers composed mostly of stone with relatively little occupied spaces. What I'm trying to do is keep the population numbers as canon and then come up with a size and configuration of towers that makes some kind of sense. Others are more than welcome to pick a size and then figure out how many people would be needed to fill it. I think that a city two miles in diameter with towers approaching 1 mile would still be very visually interesting, especially if the towers tend to be thicker at the base and taper towards the top.
OctaviusIII 10-02-07, 11:29 PM	Don't forget the phrasing of the book itself: The towers of Sharn range in height from about 100 feet to nearly a mile tall... Most of the towers are roughly 800 to 2,500 feet in diameter at the bottom, narrowing to about 200 to 600 feet in diameter at the top. Some have narrower spires extending farther upward... A typical Lower-City exterior wall is 15 feet thick... In the Middle-City, exterior walls are 10 feet thick... In the Upper-City, exterior walls are only 5 feet thick. It goes on to add that most interior walls are about a foot thick. Anyway, the point was that the city's average height isn't a mile, it's actually far less.
Radazim 10-02-07, 11:58 PM	I'm not buying those numbers, frankly. As I've said before, I'm starting with population numbers as canon and then backing out area and tower configuration from there. I think that you can only fix one variable and calculate the rest. Another perfectly valid way to approach this would be to take descriptions like the one you quoted, and the one about skycoach fares, to assume a version of Sharn that is about five miles across with towers as described in the quote, and then try to figure out how many people are would realistically populate that city. I think that number would be well in excess of one million residents. The point is that all of the data as presented doesn't make any sense, so we need to decide which to keep and which to throw away in our version of Sharn.
mosaic 10-03-07, 03:34 AM	I'm thinking that there are only 2-4 towers per tier, which changes my visual image of Sharn a bit, but it actually makes creating a usable map (and ultimately, a scale model) practical. So between 10 and 20 of the really big towers, maybe twice that many mediums, and lots and lots of smaller ones (some sprouting up from the ground, some poking out of other towers or up off bridges, and a few with no base at all, hanging in the air and connected to another tower only by bridges [as per the picture on p. 16 of the Sharn:CoT]). Intuitively, that makes sense. With a possibly finite number of towers now, it might be worth it to try to figure out which ones have been named so far. Here's what I found after a quick skim of the ECS and S:CoT: *the Glass Tower - location unknown, referred to as a "floating citadel," collapsed 9 Olarune, 918 YK - p.147 ECS, p.32 S:CoT *the Fourteenth Tower - location unknown - p.151 ECS *Dalannan Tower - location unknown, "upper city," next to Kelsa Spire - p.307 ECS *Kelsa Spire - location unknown, "upper city," next to Dalannan Tower - p.307 ECS *the Mason's Tower - location unknown, site of "The Broken Anvil" tavern - p.310 ECS *Dorasharn Tower - location unknown, "one of the more ancient spires of the city, is inhabited from its middle up. A complex sewer system separates the inhabited levels from the lower levels that have been closed and sealed for more than a thousand years," site of a lost House Cannith foundry - p.310-311 ECS *Barmin Tower - location unknown, has a House Sivis message station - p.317 ECS *Morgrave University - Menthis Plateau, five tall, slender towers that ring the university dome - p.10 S:CoT *Thurias Tower - Menthis Plateau, near Morgrave University's Dezina Museum of Antiquities in the Seventh Tower District, uppermost level is sometimes called "Little Xen'drik," known for antiquities dealers - p.12, 15 S:CoT *the Seventh Tower (district?) - Menthis Plateau, Seveth Tower district, near Thurias Tower, may be the oldest or tallest tower in the area - p.12, 15 S:Cot *Kundarak Tower - Korranath District, largest bank in Sharn (the Kundarak Bank of Sharn) is located at the top - p.12 S:Cot *White Tower (district?) - located in the White Tower District, may be the oldest or tallest tower in the area - p.12 S:Cot *Ambassador Towers (district?) - Central Plateau, has a House Sivis message station - p. 13 S:CoT *Dragon Towers (district?) - Central Plateau, has a House Sivis message station, location of the House Sivis enclave, House Tharashk's grand hall, House Jorasco's headquarters, and House Phairlan's small headquarters, many independent guildhalls, the Great Healing Hall, barristers, - p. 13, 20-22, 26 S:CoT *Highest Towers (district?) - Central Plateau, has a House Sivis message station, city archives, airship docks - p. 13, 23-24 S:CoT *Warden Towers (district?) - Menthis Plateau, has a House Sivis message station - p. 13 S:CoT *Oak Towers (district?) - Northedge Plateau, has a House Sivis message station - p. 13 S:CoT *Mithril Tower (district?) - Central Plateau, features spectacular townhomes, many dwarven residents - p.23, 26 S:CoT *Ivy Towers (district?) - Menthis Plateau, residential area, home to many academics - p.23 S:CoT *Sovereign Towers (district?) - location unknown, site of the Pavilion of the Host - p.30 S:CoT Wow. That's at least 19 towers right there, and I've only gotten to Chapter 1 of Share: City of Towers (by the way, where I've said "district?" I know that it's a district, but I'm not sure if the district is named after a specific tower of the same name). But not all of them are going to be giants, maybe Dorasharn, Thurias, the Ambassador Towers, the Dragon Towers, the Highest Towers, Mithril, etc. It seems like the Central Plateau is going to have more than 2-4 mile-high towers, but then Northedge might have fewer. I have all the Eberron supplements and will eventually get through them, but I don't have all the adventure or any of the novels. If you are a big fan of the novels, I'd be most appreciative if you'd add and references you know of. Thanks, Mosaic
OctaviusIII 10-03-07, 05:00 AM	Alright, let's get our variables straight. I'm going to change them a bit from before so they can be referenced more easily. U=Unbuilt space D=Density per square mile per vertical foot A=Base Area H=Height V=Abstracted variables that increase or decrease the density, like thicker walls P=Population P is reached by multiplying all the other variables together. If we set one variable (like P=200,000) then we can adjust all the rest to arrive at whatever we feel is realistic As for a diameter of 4.25 miles, 15% uninhabitable crevices, a population of 200,000, and the assumptions I made earlier: that yields an average height of around 66 feet. The only way to stretch the towers up very high is to give 90% of the city over to empty, uninhabited space, which yields an average height of only 563 feet. By the way, I don't think we need an average height that is miles tall, nor do I think that the towers stretch any more than a mile. Real cities have a lot more smaller buildings than tall ones, even in the high-rise districts. The defining feature of Sharn isn't just that it's tall - it's that Sharn exists as what amount to multiple cities stacked atop each other, each with their own city life and all interacting with one another through flying transportation.
Revvecor 11-17-07, 06:33 PM	Based on your equation here is a simple Excel sheet (http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=pRxZxUhxwAqNuHylB9NtDUQ&hl=en_US).