Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Zedium 08-23-05, 03:27 AM	After reading the latest dragonshard, something struck me. There seems to be no possible way for Khorvaire to ever defeat Riedra in an invasion. First: Quori have superiour planning and more time. Dal Quor has faster time than Eberron and Quori don't need sleep (but their host does). As a result, a Quori can leave his host while it is asleep and discuss plans with other Quori in Dal Quor. They can plan, spread news, device new strategies all while most humanoids sleep. Second: Riedra outnumbers Khorvaire. Riedra has more inhabitants, resulting in more armymen, especially after a war with Adar there ought to be more combatants than Khorvaire will ever be able to get. On top of that, Riedra is one big united country, while Khorvaire is still devided and also faces a lot more challenges. Third: Riedra has the trust of Khorvaire. Due to their plans and aid, the Inspired are seen as the friends of Khorvaire, and thus their attack will come as a total suprise. On top of that, they have mind seeded spies and thought control magic. Fourth: The Quori are immortal and endless. The Quori can't really die. Sure you can kill their host, but they will just pick a new one. And in the case of you really killing the Quori, a new one will be born on the Quori side, thus only giving them a minor setback. So how would Khorvaire survive an invasion by the Inspired. Anyone has any suggestions? Edit: Sorry, indeed, Dal Quor has faster time, I meant that.
Tek 08-23-05, 03:32 AM	A group of heroic adventurers would somehow manage to stop the Dreaming Dark before or during the invasion, and this would send a shockwave and thus Khorvaire would be safe once again!... but for how long?
Just another user 08-23-05, 04:55 AM	But Korvhaine have arcane superiority, between warforged Titans, flying fortresses armies of magewrigths with magic missile wands there is more than enough to give riedran the fight of their lives. They could even have more soldiers but if you send a Titan against 1000 soldiers what you have is 1000 corpses. And I would not be so sure about Korvhaine leaders trusting the inspired. Friendship, maybe, but trust? I don't think so.
dracogen 08-23-05, 05:47 AM	"The Hero factor" is something all wannabe evil overlords in Eberron should remember. After all, thwarthing a Riedran invasion is just a heroic campaign waiting for happen. After all it IS a fantasy world meant for heroes.
Just another user 08-23-05, 06:32 AM	"The Hero factor" is something all wannabe evil overlords in Eberron should remember. After all, thwarthing a Riedran invasion is just a heroic campaign waiting for happen. After all it IS a fantasy world meant for heroes. Well, yaeh ,but that would be metagaming, and only PCs can do that. ;)
nyysjan 08-23-05, 06:35 AM	Dreaming dark vs. Gatekeeper druids Dragons might decide to stop them and accidentally also destroy all the nations of Khorvaire. Daelkyr might do something just for laughs.
Gurv 08-23-05, 06:39 AM	The whole point is that, to date, there is nothing preventing Reidra from accomplishing the goals of the Inspired. All they have to do is wait, and eventually their plan will capture Khorvaire with a minimal of bloodshed or even effort. As things stand, Khorvaire is screwed, and it doesn't even know it. Without the intervention of heroic types who learn the truth and move to oppose it, the Inspired will conquor the world. No Elminster to save it, or gods to steal the thunder. It really is up to the players to do something about it.
ieattrollsforbreakfast 08-23-05, 07:33 AM	I think that although Riedra may seem more powerful, since it is united, has unparalleled intelligence and communication and the Quori behind them, they will win. However, one important factor is that magic is forbidden and psionics are still rare. In Khorvaire, magic is prevalent. Magic is what will turn the tide of battle, and Khorvaire trumps Riedra there. So I believe that Khorvaire could survive on the defensive, so long as it presented a united front (which is unlikely). However, the Riedrans don't particularly want to take Khorvaire, it would disrupt their utopia. The Inspired know that if they take Khorvaire by force, they wont be able to control its population. Only by taking over peacefully (the same way they did with Riedra), can they expand the empire.
Sarlax 08-23-05, 07:57 AM	Don't forget that the quori already took over Sarlona, which was in much the same shape as Khorvaire is now. They weren't nearly in as strong a position then as they are now. Previously, they had to rely on dream manipulations and subtle psychic influence alone. Now they have all their old tricks as well as an entire continent of zealous followers who are happy to die in service of their masters. I don't think the humanoids can possibly stand against Riedra. The only forces powerful enough might be the Lords of Dust and the dragons. Keep in mind, though, that the dragons didn't seem to do very well at stopping the quori when they took Sarlona. Or maybe they didn't even try - they may have even assisted.
nick012000 08-23-05, 07:59 AM	Don't forget the random aberration hordes led by the dealkyr. :P
Bluebrush 08-23-05, 08:01 AM	The key is that Rideria wants to do this subtly. Part of the reason for the orderly nature of Rideria is that they believe the orderlyness of Eberron will keep the new age from coming. A Khorvaire-Rideria war will plunge the world into chaos, perhaps speeding up the turn of the age. If the activities of Sarlona became public knowledge, other evil organisations would move to stop them. The lords of dust don't want their favourite toys taken away.
DarkWarriorKarg 08-23-05, 08:45 AM	A Dark Alliance against the forces of Dal Quor... - Undead minions of the Blood of Vol - Unsleeping agents of the Lords of Dust - Agents of the Lord of Blades Uniting to save the world... so they can plunder it themselves.
polt 08-23-05, 08:59 AM	I don't like the whole "All of the forces in Eberron just bands together". I don't think we'll see the LoBster allying with the LoD and Daelkyr to fight a common foe. It's just lame. Khovaire is going to survive with the hero factor, and with superior magical power. However, I think Reidra has a good chance of winning. And I'm atm considering letting this happen in my game.
Griff_Goodbeard 08-23-05, 09:08 AM	The key is that Rideria wants to do this subtly. Part of the reason for the orderly nature of Rideria is that they believe the orderlyness of Eberron will keep the new age from coming. A Khorvaire-Rideria war will plunge the world into chaos, perhaps speeding up the turn of the age. If the activities of Sarlona became public knowledge, other evil organisations would move to stop them. The lords of dust don't want their favourite toys taken away. emphasis mine I don't think Rideria would ever try to openly invade Khorvaire, it's not their style ;) . But assuming they did, and there was wholesale slaughter of people across Khorvaire, I think the dragon might get involved. Maybe not openly, but in secret. The wild card here are dragonmarks. IMO I don't think the Dragons would want to see dragonmarks wiped off the face of Eberron. Too little is known of them and they're ties to the prophesy. At least thats what I think. :D
Bluebrush 08-23-05, 09:17 AM	I don't like the whole "All of the forces in Eberron just bands together". I don't think we'll see the LoBster allying with the LoD and Daelkyr to fight a common foe. It's just lame.Of course he won't. The thing is, all would/could oppose the Dreaming Dark, though they're not on the same team. The Lords of dust especially would probably just use the other factions, giving them a nudge here and there, fighting back the Sarlonans and furthering their own evil plots.
Cloud Divider 08-23-05, 10:13 AM	After reading the latest dragonshard, something struck me. There seems to be no possible way for Khorvaire to ever defeat Riedra in an invasion. First: Quori have superiour planning and more time. Dal Quor has slower time than Eberron and Quori don't need sleep (but their host does). As a result, a Quori can leave his host while it is asleep and discuss plans with other Quori in Dal Quor. They can plan, spread news, device new strategies all while most humanoids sleep. This will indeed be a challenge. The Giants were able to prevail somehow. Perhaps the answer will lie in Xen'drik. Clearly, the Inspired know there is something valuable in Xen'drik, else they would not have sponsored so many expeditions and settlements there... Perhaps someone will have reverse engineered a Psionic Disruptor Emitter (= Eldritch Machine) from a recovered Giant ruin that will prevent sleeping Inspired Quori from returning to Dal Quor... Second: Riedra outnumbers Khorvaire. Riedra has more inhabitants, resulting in more armymen, especially after a war with Adar there ought to be more combatants than Khorvaire will ever be able to get. On top of that, Riedra is one big united country, while Khorvaire is still devided and also faces a lot more challenges. Perhaps so - but Riedra's also on the other side of the Sea of Pain or Sorrow or whatever. It doesn't matter if Khorvaire is outnumbered 10:1. If Riedra can't bring it's army to Khorvaire, it's a nonissue. If Riedra doesn't have 10x as many ships to carry people on, it won't matter. Real-World Case-in-Point: China and Taiwan. China's got a mega-huge army, and Taiwan is pretty small. They're much less concerned about the troop size of the Red Chinese Army, and more concerned with the number surface-surface missiles and other long-range strike weapons. Sure, there's a fair number of amphibious assault ships *BUT* a ship is pretty vulnerable once it's in the Strait. Sink the ship, and you sink a whole bunch of manpower. Third: Riedra has the trust of Khorvaire. Due to their plans and aid, the Inspired are seen as the friends of Khorvaire, and thus their attack will come as a total suprise. On top of that, they have mind seeded spies and thought control magic. Yup. It's definitely well placed for a surprise attack in this regard. Though I'll clarify - Riedra's a "political friend". And given Khorvaire's longstanding history of changing alliances, "political friends" are unlikely to be unconditionally trusted (but hey, throw in some liberally applied Psionic Charms, and Empathic Projections of "Trust Us"...bets are off). Fourth: The Quori are immortal and endless. The Quori can't really die. Sure you can kill their host, but they will just pick a new one. And in the case of you really killing the Quori, a new one will be born on the Quori side, thus only giving them a minor setback. This much is true. However, it should also be noted that while the Quori will come back - they may not exactly come back anywhere useful. You may have killed Inspired Grand General Thoth (and his Empty Vessel attendant) when you sunk his command ship at the Battle of Lhazaar Bay. We also conveniently killed off his nearest compatible Empty Vessel. What if the next available one is 7 days away by swift ship? In the worst-case scenario, he may have to "respawn" back at one of those Riedran monoliths... But you've cost the enemy time...and that can make a major difference. So how would Khorvaire survive an invasion by the Inspired. Anyone has any suggestions? I don't see it as quite being so overwhelming. It could be VERY ugly. And there really needs to be some kind of Giantish Eldritch Machine show up that's been recovered from Xen'drik...
Splendide 08-23-05, 10:35 AM	The Zil stand ready.
AlDaRoN Arg 08-23-05, 10:45 AM	Riedra can't just invade Khorvaire, everyday the elemental fleet grows, how do you fight that? I don't think that they'll go for a violent solution.
Charles Phipps 08-23-05, 10:51 AM	Riedra can't just invade Khorvaire, everyday the elemental fleet grows, how do you fight that? I don't think that they'll go for a violent solution. That depends if they're exposed.
Hellcow 08-23-05, 11:35 AM	After reading the latest dragonshard, something struck me. There seems to be no possible way for Khorvaire to ever defeat Riedra in an invasion. I don't have time to read this entire thread, but I will point out one thing: A fullscale military invasion might actually be a threat to the plans of the Dreaming Dark. To a large degree, what the DD is trying to do is create a stable society where nothing changes: they believe that massive change could trigger the shift of the next age. Thus, their slow and subtle manipulation. Khorvaire fighting a little war is OK, but a true world war that actually disrupts the stability they've worked so hard to create in Riedra - not something they'd be keen on. Frankly, the Inspired are most likely just as concerned about the Mourning as the people of Khorvaire: that sort of unexpected disaster could be as great a threat to them as to the Cyrans. Now, all of this is theory and conjecture: the DD doesn't know what can push the next age over the edge. But mobilizing Riedra to war is unnecessary if they feel that they can accomplish the conquest through subtler means - just as they originally conquered Riedra itself. If they somehow come to the conclusion that they have to try a military invasion, they might, and it would certainly make an interesting campaign. But basically, there's good reasons for that to be a last resort for them instead of the first step.
Pax 08-23-05, 05:10 PM	First: Quori have superiour planning and more time. Dal Quor has slower time than Eberron Actually, if Dal Quor has slower time, that means that any Riedran invasion would be less-able to adapt to changing circumstances; they would be beset by a rigidity of planning that could provide a weakness for the Khorvairan nations to exploit. Second: Riedra outnumbers Khorvaire. Riedra has more inhabitants, resulting in more armymen, especially after a war with Adar there ought to be more combatants than Khorvaire will ever be able to get. ... except that, faced with such numbers, I guarantee the Creation Forges would be reassembled, and all Khorvaire would churn out Warforged in record numbers. Then, too, you would have to consider the effect of Kharrnathi necromancers turning dead soldiers into once-more-FUNCTIONAL (if still dead) soldiers. Riedran psionics does not have equivalent abilities, really. On top of that, Riedra is one big united country, while Khorvaire is still devided and also faces a lot more challenges. ... it is my sincere opinion that the dissolution of Galifar, and the formation of the Five Nations, was probably instigated by the Quori. It fits their pattern, after all - they only rose to power after spending centuries sowing strife and discord among the then-Kingdoms of Sarlona ... Third: Riedra has the trust of Khorvaire. Due to their plans and aid, the Inspired are seen as the friends of Khorvaire, and thus their attack will come as a total suprise. On top of that, they have mind seeded spies and thought control magic. I wouldn't say "trust", I would say "comparative lack of suspicion". However, once Riedra's armies took to the field, I think that would quickly evaporate - one does NOT trust someone who's decided to invade and conquer ... even if it's "only" your neighbor who's being invaded. Fourth: The Quori are immortal and endless. The Quori can't really die. Sure you can kill their host, but they will just pick a new one. And in the case of you really killing the Quori, a new one will be born on the Quori side, thus only giving them a minor setback. Trap the Soul would work - but that is, admittedly, a higher-level magic than most Khorvairan spellcasters could manage. However, there's a more-important consideration: sure, the Quori may not be killable ... but their hosts are, and those hosts don't come in an infinite supply. By now, the Inspired are using a stock of very specialised, purpose-bred hosts. And regardless, there just aren't THAT many Inspired in Eberron, even within the heart of Riedra, at any one time. So how would Khorvaire survive an invasion by the Inspired. Anyone has any suggestions? Crank the creation forges back up to "break-neck speed" and churn out warforged armies en masse - then have them build a friggin road on the seabed, straight to Riedra, to take the fight to the enemy. WF don't have to breathe, remember. Mobilise everything - muster all those veterans back into the armies, and use them to provide a comparatively-higher level of training to the new recruits you'd also be calling up. The United States won the Pacific theater of WWII largely because they pulled their better pilots OFF the combat line, sent them back to the states, and had THEM teach new pilots - giving the new guys a little bit of a leg up on their Japanese counterparts at first ... and over time, that "leg up" grew larger, and larger ... Would it be an easy victory? No. Not for either side. And that presumes an open war, which I think only discovering the Machine the Giants used would be able to prompt ... (desperation does strange things to people ... even Inspired people).
Charles Phipps 08-23-05, 05:30 PM	I have a thread on this... http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=480587
Barachiel 08-23-05, 06:17 PM	Its called heart, faith, and steel. Numbers mean nothing to a good strategist. The Five Nations have the home-court advantage, as it were. The Inspired would have to INVADE Khorvaire, which involved maintaining supply lines, fresh troops, and all the other little problems that come with a continental invasion, which is why its almost never worked in history. Its easier to invade a neighbor when all you have to do is march. Crossing an ocean with an army and supplies is a logistical nightmare. The D-Day invasion of Normandy worked because 1) alot of long-term planning and preparation, 2) a fantastic set of bluffs on behalf of the Allies and 3) England was a much closer, realistic launching point having to only cross a channel, as opposed to us sailing across the entire Atlantic. Its also important to note, I'm referring to invading and conquering an entire CONTINENT. If it was just taking over a single nation, then the problems lessen and the odds of success go up. If you want a better more detailed way to fight off a highly advanced, more numerous enemy, I recommend you watch seasons 1-8 of Stargate SG-1 and see how Earth managed to fight off, survive, and assist in the destruction of the Goa'uld. Same scenario, just sci-fi instead of fantasy.
Edymnion 08-23-05, 06:43 PM	Actually, this raises a good question. Other than the "They don't think other people need to be involved", what reason would the Kalashtar have for NOT sending represenatives to Argonessa? They know what the Quori want, to freeze everything in place just like it is, including Khovaire. If any of them know (and I'm sure at least some of them must know about it) enough about dragonshards and have heard of the Prophesy before (which if there are human organizations working to destroy signs of dragonmarks to disrupt the prophesy, there are plenty of people that know of this connection), why wouldn't they take their case to the Dragons? I'm sure that having everything grind to a hault would do nasty things to the Prophesy, since the dragonmarks are no longer interacting with each other in any sizable way, wouldn't the Dragons themselves take action against the Quori? Especially since they already intervened on behalf of the Giants to do exactly that once before?
Fordel 08-23-05, 06:45 PM	A fullscale military invasion from Riedra might be the one thing that would actully get the Five nations working together. Atleast long enough to drive the Riedrans off. It's one thing to kill each other over the right to declare yourself ruler of a kingdom that you all have some claim over, it's an entirely differen't thing to have an outside force trying to claim what is your birthright. As much as the various nations on khorvaire may hate each other, I think they would hate an outside force even more.
Fordel 08-23-05, 06:51 PM	I'm sure that having everything grind to a hault would do nasty things to the Prophesy, since the dragonmarks are no longer interacting with each other in any sizable way, wouldn't the Dragons themselves take action against the Quori? Especially since they already intervened on behalf of the Giants to do exactly that once before? Who says the Dragon's aren't? While not technically immortal like the Quori, Dragon's with there immense lifespans might aswell be. A Draconic plan is easily as farsighted and all encompasing as any Quori one. Heck, those mountain strongholds where most of the kalashtar hide out in sarlona are supposidly guarded by a flight of blue dragons. Maybe those dragons are guarding some imprisoned demon and the kalashtar ending up there is just coincidence... or maybe it isnt :eek:
Charles Phipps 08-23-05, 06:52 PM	As I illustrated in my thread, it's entirely possible the Quori could use some "simple" magic to seriously alter standard military warfare. If you can get a Gate to work with a teleportation spell that functions to a specific location then you can and could move armies instanteously by comparison. (You'd be constrained by the slow movement through said portal but it's hours versues months)
Moria 08-23-05, 07:02 PM	I believe the invasion is already going on. Riedra doesn't want the full war. They have time on their side, and can wait. They are about to take over in one of the most powerful dragonmarked houses. They can try to do that again and again. The thing is, once they succed, it is very, very hard to remove them form their position. First the Deneiths, then Breland, slowly, but sure. The heroes may delay the DD, but there is time. Khorvaire doesn't stand a chance.
Majorafire77 08-23-05, 07:05 PM	Who says the Dragon's aren't? While not technically immortal like the Quori, Dragon's with there immense lifespans might aswell be. A Draconic plan is easily as farsighted and all encompasing as any Quori one. Heck, those mountain strongholds where most of the kalashtar hide out in sarlona are supposidly guarded by a flight of blue dragons. Maybe those dragons are guarding some imprisoned demon and the kalashtar ending up there is just coincidence... or maybe it isnt :eek: Kalashtar demon summoners? That's a new one.
Tek 08-23-05, 07:10 PM	Actually, this raises a good question. Other than the "They don't think other people need to be involved", what reason would the Kalashtar have for NOT sending represenatives to Argonessa? They know what the Quori want, to freeze everything in place just like it is, including Khovaire. If any of them know (and I'm sure at least some of them must know about it) enough about dragonshards and have heard of the Prophesy before (which if there are human organizations working to destroy signs of dragonmarks to disrupt the prophesy, there are plenty of people that know of this connection), why wouldn't they take their case to the Dragons? I'm sure that having everything grind to a hault would do nasty things to the Prophesy, since the dragonmarks are no longer interacting with each other in any sizable way, wouldn't the Dragons themselves take action against the Quori? Especially since they already intervened on behalf of the Giants to do exactly that once before? I personally think that the Kalashtar believe that the Quori problem is not anyone's problem but their own. They seem to think that the only people who could every fully defeat them would be the Kalashtar, and therefore, don't bother getting anyone else involved. Smart? Probably not.
Charles Phipps 08-23-05, 07:18 PM	I think it's more an issue that the Dragons probably already know all about the Quori and don't honestly care/can't do a damn thing about it. The Dragons probably think unless the Prophecy says to intervene they shouldn't and they've got problems with the Lords of Dust. Why should they care what some dream parasites due to humanity?
Edymnion 08-23-05, 07:19 PM	I personally think that the Kalashtar believe that the Quori problem is not anyone's problem but their own. They seem to think that the only people who could every fully defeat them would be the Kalashtar, and therefore, don't bother getting anyone else involved. Smart? Probably not.Yeah, but we already have word of the khovaire kalashtar thinking they should bring in some of the other races, or at least memebers of them that could be trusted (aka: the rest of the kalashtar character's party). So we know that some at least are open to the idea of getting outside help...
Brastan 08-23-05, 07:31 PM	SG-1 :D However the parallel is not as good. Would the Dragons be the equivalent of the Asgard? Also the defense of Earth ultimately reseted in the hands of four heros and one of them in particular. It goes back to the, "because the heros can." Which is exactly what Eberron is about, and is a valid argument for why things happen the way they do. If the setting was self-running and didn't need Player actions what fun would it be?
Edymnion 08-23-05, 07:37 PM	SG-1 :D However the parallel is not as good. Would the Dragons be the equivalent of the Asgard?... ...curse you and your utterly perfect SG1 analogy! :P
Bluebrush 08-23-05, 09:10 PM	Consider the legend that the mountains of Adar are protected by blue dragons. Maybe the dragons already know, or perhaps they even predicted it and sent some measure of protection for the Kalashtar long before they even appeared in Adar. Another thing to bear in mind. Dragons are famous for sleeping, usually on massive piles of gold. They most likely dream incredible dreams incomprehensible to humans, but they are still dreams, and you don't want to annoy a race of beings who can give you nightmares about sleeping on pyrite.
ratslinky 08-23-05, 11:25 PM	I think that the reidrans have a major disadvantage. for one they have to cross an ocean to get to korvaire. Gate and teleportation spells are out of the question because of the general lack of beings able to use such powers. Also the kalashtar of adar would likely strike at reidra at the first chance they got.
Charles Phipps 08-23-05, 11:30 PM	I think that the reidrans have a major disadvantage. for one they have to cross an ocean to get to korvaire. Gate and teleportation spells are out of the question because of the general lack of beings able to use such powers. Also the kalashtar of adar would likely strike at reidra at the first chance they got. Can the Kalashtyr do anything? I largely thought that the Riedrans had enough troops to spare and then some for a war with Khovaire while also keeping Adar 'handled.' If I knew what the Quori were, I'd probably spread dreamlilly and more around the place plus use "emotion" spells
Barachiel 08-23-05, 11:57 PM	The Goa'uld = The Inspired/Dreaming Dark The Tok'ra = The Kalashtar The Ancients = The Dragons The Asgard = The Elves of Aerenal The Wraith = The Blood of Vol The Replicators = The Daelkyr (yeah this one is kinda weak) The Ori = The Lords of Dust The Tauri = The races of Khorvaire Atlantis = Somewhere in Xen'drik SG-1 = Insert your Adventuring Company here. :)
Charles Phipps 08-24-05, 12:17 AM	No No, the Ancients are the Giants of Xen'drick. The Dragons are Asgard. The Elves are the JAFFA.
Barachiel 08-24-05, 01:14 AM	Nah I see the Dragons more as the Ancients simply because they have become great and powerful and all-knowing and do absolutely nothing, at least as far as the lesser races are concerned, but there is a small rogue grop that occassionally interferes. :)
Pax 08-24-05, 02:51 AM	The Elves are the JAFFA. Nope. If anything in Eberron can be said to hold similar palce to the Ja'fa ... that would be the ordinary people of Riedra.
Fordel 08-24-05, 03:23 AM	Nope. If anything in Eberron can be said to hold similar palce to the Ja'fa ... that would be the ordinary people of Riedra. That is pretty much exactly the same situation. People of Riedra taught from birth there leaders are divinely inspiered, the Ja'fa are taught from birth there leaders are Gods. Both sects are pretty much kept stagnant in the stoneage, where any kind of magic/technology is merely a gift from the divine. The Kalashtar being the Tok'ra and the Quori being the Goa'uld is dead on aswell.
Wolfwood2 08-24-05, 01:31 PM	A few points I don't think have been sufficiently made. The people of Riedra are going to really, really, REALLY suck at warfare. Number one, they've been bred and conditioned to be docile and avoid direct violence. On a more subtle level, the people of Riedra are _not_ encouraged to strive to reach their utmost potential. They're encouraged to be content with their lot in life and keep their heads down. Don't strain, don't innovate, don't push for anything better. Just do your job and keep your head down. You know how that translates to me in D&D terms? The people of Riedra are going to be, on average, a lower level than the people of Khorvaire. Even taking into account the lower average levels of Eberron, that can make a huge difference. Consider an army of Level 1 Warriors vs. and army of Level 2 Warriors. Number two, the people of Riedra have no experience in warfare. And yes, I'm including their Inspired leaders. Sure the quori fought a bit when they were unifying Riedra.... once... a long time ago. Nothing in their entry says they have perfect memories, and any warfare skills they have are going to be pretty rusty. Oh, I'm sure they keep up an army and navy and all that, but their training and combat doctrine is literally centuries away from any real world experience. Even with genius Inspired leaders, the generals of Khovaire are going to be making FOOLS of them for years before they can even begin catch up. Yes, there's the seige of Adar, but that's not going to provide experience with the kind of open warfare we're talking about here. Number three, they make everything better and faster in Khovaire. Seriously, it's bound to be true. That no innovation, no improvement thing again. What was good enough for their ancestors a hundred years ago is good enough for them. Compare to Khovaire, who sometimes seem on the cusp of an industrial revolution with mass production and all that implies. Number four, and this one people have talked about, no magic. No magic, and this has huge effects on all levels, both large and small. No magewrights to speed production. No eternal wands. No airships. No Dragonmarked Houses, who use magic to do things better in a thousand different ways. No divine magic to bless the troops before battle. No bards to inspire. Yes, Riedra has psionics, but it's still limited to a comparitive few, and I seriously doubt they've spent even one tenth the effort adapting it to warfare. Number five, and this is a point Keith kind of made. Even if the Inspired win, they lose. All those Reidran soldiers coming home are going to disrupt their society and stir things up for at least a generation. It's hard for some people to go back to the quiet life after the battlefield, as all too many real world soldiers have found out. Not to mention all those forieng ideas that are bound to find their way back. If the Inspired fail, they may well find they've undone a hundred years of work in Sarlona. Overall: Where the strength of the Inspired lies is in stealth and spying and carefully targetted violence. They're going to suck at war. Heck, all of this makes me wonder about running the opposite. Suppose that a nation or nations decides to run a Valenar-style adventure to Reidra. Take control of a portion of the continent and become its rulers. From a certain perspective, they could seem like easy targets. (They aren't, but they could seem that way from the limited information available.)
Charles Phipps 08-24-05, 01:40 PM	If my Riedra campaign succeeds, I'm definitely going to have Khovaire occupy the country with some "unequal treaties." I do think that the Riedrans are going to be slightly better than people think at warfare. What Keith is describing is a rigid caste system where people devote themselves fully to mastering their chosen craft. This doesn't mean that they are going to be lacking at their craft, it means they're going to have a extremely good people at it...and no higher. For example you might have a 15th level Samurai equivalent. However, in Khovaire he's going to use bows and his sword even if the opposition has fireballs.
nyysjan 08-24-05, 03:34 PM	Consider the legend that the mountains of Adar are protected by blue dragons. Maybe the dragons already know, or perhaps they even predicted it and sent some measure of protection for the Kalashtar long before they even appeared in Adar. I really like that idea. Another thing to bear in mind. Dragons are famous for sleeping, usually on massive piles of gold. They most likely dream incredible dreams incomprehensible to humans, but they are still dreams, and you don't want to annoy a race of beings who can give you nightmares about sleeping on pyrite. I'd think that dragons have deviced magical means to ward their dreams
Kobold Avenger 08-24-05, 08:11 PM	Has anyone ever thought of this idea? What if the Prophecy says the Inspired have to rule Khorvaire in the far future? With the only pockets of freedom being in Frostfell and Xendrik... Why? Because only through Khorvaire and Sarlona united by the Inspired would Eberron ever stand a chance against the Lords of Dust, Daelkyr or Vol...
Charles Phipps 08-24-05, 08:26 PM	It's an interesting question which is worse in the Dragon's minds. The Quori are Demons and so is the Lords of Dust. However, Vol is a half-dragon... tough call.
Hellcow 08-25-05, 10:28 PM	The Goa'uld = The Inspired/Dreaming Dark The Ori = The Lords of Dust While the Tok'ra/Gou'ald conflict makes for a good metaphor for the quori and kalashtar, in some ways I think that the Ori are a better match for the Dreaming Dark. Among other things, the quori cannot possess you against your will (unless, of course, you are an empty vessel of the proper line)... they can mind seed you, but that's sort of a different thing. Likewise, if you destroy the body of a goa'uld, you destroy the goa'uld, unless you're dealing with Anubis - while with the Inspired, and seemingly with the Ori, the destruction of the physical body is no big loss to the power itself. The Ori don't lose anything when a prior is killed, or so it appears. Anyhow, just a thought.
Hellcow 08-25-05, 11:00 PM	The people of Riedra are going to really, really, REALLY suck at warfare. Number one, they've been bred and conditioned to be docile and avoid direct violence. I think Charles has the right of this. Sure, a Riedran peasant isn't going to be a great warrior. But Riedra DOES have a standing army. It's been at war with Adar since time out of mind, and they've also fought the dromites and various other small-scale threats. They're also taught to stand together to face a conflict and to lay down their lives if necessary (coupled with a religion that promises a better life for those who die a worthy death). And on top of that, there's the issue of the hanbalani (the psionic amplifiers). Currently, these may be set on "docile", but it's possible they could be adjusted to "militaristic fervor" if that's the mood that's necessary. The average Reidran may not be a great warrior - and percentage-wise, you'll probably have a higher commoner-to-warrior ratio than Khorvaire - but they've got a decent army at hand. Don't strain, don't innovate, don't push for anything better. Just do your job and keep your head down. Don't innovate - but go ahead and strain. Follow tradition, do what you're told, but do it as well as you can if you want to progess in the next life. So Khorvaire will have the edge in personal initiative, but Riedra has that unquestioning devotion on its side. Number two, the people of Riedra have no experience in warfare. And yes, I'm including their Inspired leaders. Again, the issue here is that we know of. But thanks to the Inspired, we know little about what's going on in Sarlona. They've been maintaining the siege of Adar for ages, but there's also been sporadic campaigns against the dromites and various other groups or monsters in the past - inhabitants of the northern tundra and other regions that the empire has expanded into. Number three, they make everything better and faster in Khovaire. No argument there. More people, but none of the arcane mass production you get from Cannith and the like. Now, Riedra may have a few tremendously high-level Inspired craftsmen who make amazing things... but that's a handful of people versus legions of artificers, magewrights, and wondrous locations. Number four, and this one people have talked about, no magic. No magic, and this has huge effects on all levels, both large and small. No magewrights to speed production. No eternal wands. No airships. No Dragonmarked Houses, who use magic to do things better in a thousand different ways. No divine magic to bless the troops before battle. No bards to inspire. Yes, Riedra has psionics, but it's still limited to a comparitive few, and I seriously doubt they've spent even one tenth the effort adapting it to warfare. Yes and no. First, I must completely disagree about the Inspired not adapting psionics to warfare. They've been using psionics in warfare long before they came to Khorvaire, and they've been fighting psionic foes since they arrived (Adar, dromites). If you're sieging a psionic power, you'll want to bring your psionic power to bear. And they've had, effectively, 10,000 years to develop their techniques of battlefield psi. Given the possibility that they WILL have to fight Khorvaire, Argonnessen, the Lords of Dust, or other forces, I certainly think that they have developed military tactics around the use of psi. Likewise, they DO use psi for urban development. In the major cities, they do have nomads ready to teleport those in need of instant travel, seers watching the borders through remote viewing, and egoists to perform healing. And I think you might have something akin to the thoughtsinger to take the place of the bard - certainly it serves the needs of the Inspired to have someone skilled at, well, inspiration. However, these things are certainly limited to the Inspired and the chosen (empty vessels) as opposed to the public. In battle, you don't have the same ratio of kineticists as magewrights with eternal wands, and egoists just aren't as effective when it comes to battlefield healing as adepts and clerics. The magic Khorvaire has at its disposal is certainly more versatile and widespread, and troops will be likely to display more initiative. On the other hand, the Inspired have high-level, nearly immortal commanders and the ability to empower any lower-level soldier with a Charisma high enough to accept possession. It's a tricky business, and it would certainly be an ugly war. Number five, and this is a point Keith kind of made. Even if the Inspired win, they lose. Agreed. Overall: Where the strength of the Inspired lies is in stealth and spying and carefully targetted violence. They're going to suck at war. I think "suck" is an overstatement - but it's certainly not their strength, and they are wiser to avoid it if possible. And frankly, as noted, the long distance between the nations is going to put a tremendous burden on the aggressor, because of supply lines and the vulnerbility of ships in transit.
Charles Phipps 08-25-05, 11:14 PM	I do think that the reason that the Quori may have started the Great War was possibly also to keep Khovaire technology down. They're in a bit of a bad situation I think. They're sort of like Pre-Mejii Japan, basically they've sacrificed development for total control. While they're intimidating now, we don't know how long it'll be til Khovaire overwhelms them.... Of course, they have the Dreaming Dark to do their thinking for them (and Quori I imagine can be very inventive) but they may be in slight trouble there.
Valas 08-26-05, 12:10 AM	Fourth: The Quori are immortal and endless. The Quori can't really die. Sure you can kill their host, but they will just pick a new one. And in the case of you really killing the Quori, a new one will be born on the Quori side, thus only giving them a minor setback. Ok, working from memory here (at work) so don't flame me if I'm wrong. :) Last I read, Quori weren't immortal. The spirits that originally bonded with the monks in Adar were supposed to be Quori that turned away from the beliefs of the rest of their race and started following the Path of Light. Well, in Races of Eberron, it says that quite a few of them were destroyed while trying to find a way out of Dal Quor. So it stands to reason that Quori aren't immortal, just really hard to kill. Probably have to be killed on their home plane. If the Quori succeed in bringing Dal Quor back into alignment with Eberron, I can see the Kalashtar sending strike groups traveling to that plane, as assassins. But maybe I'm just deluding myself.
Hellcow 08-26-05, 12:22 AM	Last I read, Quori weren't immortal... Well, in Races of Eberron, it says that quite a few of them were destroyed while trying to find a way out of Dal Quor. So it stands to reason that Quori aren't immortal, just really hard to kill. Probably have to be killed on their home plane. I don't have a page reference, but I'm fairly certain this is clarified in RoE. Quori can be killed in Dal Quor, but new quori will them emerge from the Dreaming Dark (as mentioned on page 64 of RoE). So you can kill them, and you can eliminate a particularly annoying personality (which is effectively what the DD wants to do with the kalashtar), but you can never completely eliminate all quori, any more than you could kill all the celestials or fiends of Shavarath. And sure, I think the kalashtar strike force is a likely concept if the planes are realigned.
Edymnion 08-26-05, 12:33 AM	Ah, but wouldn't the Quori suffer from the same problem as all the other immortal creatures in a D&D setting? That, over the long millenia, they become inflexible in their ways, and take on a fixed mindset? The old "This has always worked before, there's no reason it won't work now" that keeps them from being truely innovative? Especially in the light that they are extra-planar beings, not unlike solars and demons, who would have a relatively fixed mindset to begin with?
Charles Phipps 08-26-05, 12:36 AM	Ah, but wouldn't the Quori suffer from the same problem as all the other immortal creatures in a D&D setting? That, over the long millenia, they become inflexible in their ways, and take on a fixed mindset? The old "This has always worked before, there's no reason it won't work now" that keeps them from being truely innovative? Especially in the light that they are extra-planar beings, not unlike solars and demons, who would have a relatively fixed mindset to begin with? I'm not Keith but one also tends to think the Quori would have a homefield advantage over say..Solar Devas...because Quori deal daily with human dreams and know what makes humans tick.
Edymnion 08-26-05, 01:16 AM	They know what we dream, there's a differance. Watching someone's dreams and trying to figure out how they work is like trying to read an internet personal ad where they are overexagerating their positive sides, and minimizing or completely deleting their negative sides. Of course, they also have thousands of years of experience with waking humans as well. But, how much of that involves mainly the cowed populas of Reidra? I'd say the Khovairians are still quite capable of throwing the DD curveballs when they are so inclined.
Gnome_Dragon_Disciple 08-26-05, 02:58 AM	Interresting that people would bring up the possibility of the forces of evil in the world uniting with good against the Dreaming Dark, most notably the Daelkyr and the Lords of Dust. In my campaign, the Daelkyr are creations of the Quori... an experiment of sorts in creating beings more creative than those who would soon rise from apes in Eberron. The massive monoliths in Riedra are intended to not only bring Dal Quor into a snug relationship with Eberron... They're also meant to pull Xoriat from its remote exile, effectively counterracting the Gatekeeper's shields. The Daelkyr know this. After all, they may not be CALLED the Inspired, but that doesn't mean that they don't report to their overlords on a nightly basis... That said, it could very well be that a thirteenth dragonmark manifested in Sarlona... Or more likely, that the Quori, fascinated by these dragonmarks and the power they provide the Houses as a whole, have endeavored to manifest a sort of... Quorimark. They cannot posess every Riedran, but they may find it useful to manifest a Quorimark on individuals who they have forseen being useful in their campaigns in Riedra. There would be a Quorimark for every Psionic discipline (generally replicating the low-level powers of these disciplines with a PP progression to choose which ability to use when more powerful Marks are manifested). Damnit... I'm going to have to write those up, now...
Psymnotica 08-26-05, 04:08 AM	Ah, but wouldn't the Quori suffer from the same problem as all the other immortal creatures in a D&D setting? That, over the long millenia, they become inflexible in their ways, and take on a fixed mindset? The old "This has always worked before, there's no reason it won't work now" that keeps them from being truely innovative? Especially in the light that they are extra-planar beings, not unlike solars and demons, who would have a relatively fixed mindset to begin with? Perhaps, but perhaps because of the fact that the Quori are creatures of Dream, of a realm that is filled with the creative energies & ideas of millions of beings, that they somehow manage to remain fairly flexible and adaptable in their thought. Just an idea. They know what we dream, there's a differance. Watching someone's dreams and trying to figure out how they work is like trying to read an internet personal ad where they are overexagerating their positive sides, and minimizing or completely deleting their negative sides. They also feed upon the psychic energies created by dreamers, and are themselves the embodyments of emotions and desires. They know what people like, hate, fear or love. They know what terrifies us in our sleep because they are some of the things that terrify us in our sleep. Of course, they also have thousands of years of experience with waking humans as well. But, how much of that involves mainly the cowed populas of Reidra? As a random thought, the Quori's first interactions with humans may have been confusing to them, as many things that are expressed in dreams are realizations of supressed desires or things our brains are trying to make sense of, things our subconscious minds need to "sort out" to keep us sane. A Quori who has never interacted with a human who normally suppresses those feelings maybe shocked by their staidness. As for dealing with the populations of Riedra, it may have taught them much of how to best mollify human emotions in the waking world through propaganda and psychic means, yet cause the Riedran's minds to burst with huge amounts of repressed emotional energy in Dal Quor, which to the Quori could be a veritable feast to be devoured, or an incredible font of information into the psyche of humanity. I'd say the Khovairians are still quite capable of throwing the DD curveballs when they are so inclined. I totally agree with this, just on the principle that no two minds work exactly the same, and that while the Quori could read 99% of the populace like a book, that annoying 1% may continually confound them. Not to mention the elven or the warforged psyche's, of whom the Quori can only observe from the material plane. They may be the key to trully confounding the Quori. Just my two cents.
Streamweaver 08-26-05, 08:38 AM	Well the way things seem to be set up it definitely looks Bleak for Khorvair IMO. It seems like The Dreaming Dark have had a hand in many events to destabilize Khorvair and set it up for take over either militarily or by other means. Things definitely look to be in their end-game stage as far as the DD plans go. Personally I find the Dreaming Dark as written interesting in theory but not well suited to my tastes for play at the table. I'm kind of bored as DM and player by Monolithic villains and the DD kind of come across like that to me. So it's simple, I've modified them to better fit my tastes as DM and hopefully make them more interesting to the players. In my campaign my players have discovered a bit about the Quori and their seeming intents but they've also discovered a few vulnerabilities I've worked into them. This is just a general gloss over of those vulnerabilities mind you but in general: - Quori need to maintain some link, even a small one, to Dal Quor while possessing someone in this world. This usually means they have to be within several miles of a gate or a special psi crystal. - If a body possessed by a Quori spirit is killed they Quori can slip either slip back to Dal Quor or it's special psi crystal. If there isn't a gate within a few miles and this special psi crystal is destroyed the Quori dies permanently. This creates a big vulnerability for Quori agents operating in Khorvair as most have to use and guard these special psi crystals just to get around. - Gates to Dal Quor are very rare in Khorvair. Generally they shouldn't even exist but I've said the Quori use a method called Dimensional Tunneling to get to and from Dal Quor. This basically means they establish a gate from Dal Quor to some other plane, then another gate almost on top of that one from that other plane (usually Mabar) to Eberron. For flavor I've said in my game that these tunnels require an incredible amount of magical power and that shutting one down (something the pcs have a device that can do) causes a catastrophic event on the other side. - I've also made Quori a bit less single minded. While the DD is united I've had other beings from Dal Quor make their way to Eberron as well as a kind of psionic black market, this has given me someone the players can fight (they're basically Quori thugs) and learn a bit about Dal Quor and the DD without having to go all out against them right from the get go. Anyway just wanted to toss that out there. Be interested to hear how other GMs are using the whole DD thing in their actual sessions.
yossarius 08-26-05, 11:08 AM	All in all, I think this thread had demonstrated that a Riedran military-style invasion is unlikely to happen. I don't think that you could predict its outcome beforehand, either. There are simply too many variable to consider. Too much would depend on how things played out (i.e. what various adventuring parties did). It seems to me that the Dreaming Dark would know this. An invasion would simply be too expensive and messy. It might make for good adventuring, but it would probably be simply out of place here. An important thing for DM's to remember here is that the Inspired have much more patience than we do. We want them to make some kind of bold, obvious gesture toward Khorvaire, so the PCs have a reason to oppose them. But I don't think that's going to happen. If the campaign played out on its own, without PC interference, I think the Dreaming Dark would manage to control Khorvaire within, say, ten to twenty human lifetimes. Yes, this is a very slow and uninteresting pace. I've been looking for a means to draw my players into this aspect of Eberron, and I think found an interesting one. Did anyone see the kewl, but ill-fated series Odyssey 5 on Showtime a few years back? For those who didn't, there were five people on a space shuttle in space who witness the descruction of the Earth, and then they are sent back five years into the past in order to prevent it from happening. In the beginning, they had almost no idea where to begin, and had to slowly collect clues to lead them in the right direction. I've been considering a storyline where, hundreds of years in the future, the last of the kalashtar resistance send our brave adventures into the past to prevent the Dreaming Dark's world takeover. Noone knows exactly how it happened the first time (so to speak), so they'll have to figure that out first. This I think won't be easy but shouldn't be impossible. Also, even if they are successful, that doesn't mean that they have only prolonged the eneventable (as the Terminator series demonstrated in the cheesyest manner possible).
Docrailgun 08-26-05, 11:29 AM	We don't really know that there aren't hordes of high-level NPCs on Reidra... just that there aren't many on Khorvaire. I think that the reidrans have a major disadvantage. for one they have to cross an ocean to get to korvaire. Gate and teleportation spells are out of the question because of the general lack of beings able to use such powers. Also the kalashtar of adar would likely strike at reidra at the first chance they got.
Docrailgun 08-26-05, 11:34 AM	But those other immortals don't live in the dreams of vital, creative beings. Ah, but wouldn't the Quori suffer from the same problem as all the other immortal creatures in a D&D setting? That, over the long millenia, they become inflexible in their ways, and take on a fixed mindset? The old "This has always worked before, there's no reason it won't work now" that keeps them from being truely innovative? Especially in the light that they are extra-planar beings, not unlike solars and demons, who would have a relatively fixed mindset to begin with?
Hellcow 08-26-05, 12:17 PM	But those other immortals don't live in the dreams of vital, creative beings. I tend to agree. The point of those major outsiders, from quori to solars, is that too some level they embody their plane. The quori don't just happen to live in the realm of dreams: they ARE creatures of nightmare, and as such, better suited to manipulating the minds of people than a solar would be. As for the monolithic nature of the DD, it's true. *I* have no intention to have them try to conquer Khorvaire in my campaign, because they just aren't in a hurry. So I focus on smaller schemes that the PCs can uncover and fight. They aren't battling the Dreaming Dark as a whole - they're stopping its attempt to gain control over the Vadalis enclave in Varna, or the cult it's established in Fallen, or its attempt to reclaim an old quori artifact from Xen'drik. They don't have the proof to link these things together and denounce the Inspired ambassador to Sharn, and likewise they aren't calling down the wrath of hundreds of DD agents, because it has many schemes. But they are, on a local level, making a difference. In Raiders of the Lost Ark and Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade, Indy doesn't single-handedly defeat the Nazis. But he does serve as a thorn in their side - spoiling plans that could make a difference if left alone. The DD may be a monolithic force - but the PCs don't have to battle THE DREAMING DARK itself. Every plan foiled is a victory, even if the DD lives to scheme another day. In point of fact, I personally enjoy their interactions with the Inspired ambassador, because it is a sort of fun "Oh, did you hear about that disaster in Fallen? Oh, no, why would you have?" thing where they both dance around the truth; I enojoy this more than if they just kicked down the door to the embassy and killed the ambassador.
Streamweaver 08-26-05, 01:15 PM	IAs for the monolithic nature of the DD, it's true. *I* have no intention to have them try to conquer Khorvaire in my campaign, because they just aren't in a hurry. So I focus on smaller schemes that the PCs can uncover and fight. They aren't battling the Dreaming Dark as a whole ... I think you're addressing something similar to what I was in my post, the specifics of how to deal with the Dreaming Dark in an adventure context. The Dreaming Dark are presented as a theory and general overarching evil, what I presented is how I personally deal with them in an adventure context. Most things in ECS are presented on a kind of meta-scale and before a GM can utilize it they need to make it more granular. The DD of all the things presented need a bit more of that than other elements of the setting. What I presented was just my own method for making it granular for the players. I never suggested they fight the DD as a whole, I never suggested they kick in the door to the Inspired Embassy and kill anyone. In particular the only adventures I've run with my players against the dreaming dark have been: - Going to the Eldeen Reaches to shut down a Tunneling gate the DD was using as an extra access point to Khorvair. - Shutting down an insane asylum members of the DD were using to cause the inmates to have specific dreams they could harvest in Dal Quor for something equivalent to an exotic drug for the Quori there. (This is the Quori black market so to speak)
Hellcow 08-26-05, 04:38 PM	I never suggested they fight the DD as a whole, I never suggested they kick in the door to the Inspired Embassy and kill anyone. I never said you did, SW - someone in the AKB thread was talking about such an incident. Your ideas are different from what I'd do (obviously, or they'd be what was in the but in the first place) but are certainly reasonable ways to limit the power of the DD.
Charles Phipps 08-26-05, 07:09 PM	True on the Indiana Jones and the Nazis bit, I will dare argue with the flaming bovine a bit though. Part of the interesting aspect of Indiana's adventures with the Nazis is the fact that we know victory is achieved in hindsight. Indiana prevents their "in one fell swoop" victory with the Ark (actually Indiana did nothing in Raiders of the Lost Ark ironically but it LOOKED like he accomplished something) but the show would be less enjoyable if you knew the Nazis wouldn't eventually be felled by other means. I've set up the war of Khovaire with an establishment of the PC's ultimate hatred of the Inspired and what they represent by showing just how effective the lie is. Basically, the PC's contact was this sweet innocent "Priestess of X" god from Sarlona. She helped with information, minor magic, and even loved one of the PCs. Right up until she became the host for the Dreaming Dark Quori that transformed her into well....the campaign main villain. Stargate is right, possession is one of the best ways to make the Pcs understand the handling of it. Even if they freed her, she's likely to not thank the PCs but hate them and have adopted the personality of the Quori.
Hellcow 08-26-05, 08:33 PM	Part of the interesting aspect of Indiana's adventures with the Nazis is the fact that we know victory is achieved in hindsight. Oh, not for me. He could be fighting the armies of Ming the Merciless and it would still be as enjoyable. Note that many pulp heroes were fighting imaginary villains, while other fun pulp serials were created DURING the war, when no one knew the Nazis would be defeated. In the movie "To Be or Not To Be" (not pulp my any means, but nonetheless), the heroes' small triumph against the nazis is still a triumph, even if victory in the war is far from certain. In many ways, I think "Battlestar Galactica" is a better analogy for the quori than SG1, once you pull out the initial massacre. The cylons cannot be truly killed, because their consciousness will simply transmit from one body to another. While they have tremendous military force, in much of the show it's subterfuge that is their primary weapon - their agents are hidden among us, unknown, and anyone could be a cylon. They have a plan that is very vast and mysterious, and its somewhat unclear whether they really do want to wipe us out or whether we serve some purpose alive. And while they are a vast army of immortals - we can still take some pride in any small victory. In creating the DD, I always thought of it as a cold war villain. You won't ever defeat them - but they won't ever defeat you, either, because their plans stretch far into the future. It's a game of chess on a vast, vast board: since you probably won't live to the end of the game, take satisfaction every time you capture an enemy piece or expose a plot. The Cults of the Dragon Below, Lord of Blades, and the Emerald Claw are the more obvious, in your face, deal with us because we're going to destroy the world tomorrow villains. The Dreaming Dark is a we're moving incredibly slowly but we have a plan and step by step we're getting closer villain - and the Lords of Dust are in the middle, in that overall they are subtle and long-term but a particular LoD could suddenly get to the key point in his scheme where you must stop him or the world goes to heck in a handbasket. Each serves different styles of story - the EC is better for straight up action, the LoD and DD are better for subtle noir, where victory is always uncertain. At least, that was my intent. ;)
Zedium 08-27-05, 05:50 AM	Thanks for all the replies Keith, you really told a lot. But still, the war against the dreaming dark seems like something that can never be won. For every quori you actually kill, a new one will just join the Dreaming Dark and as such they can carry on their vile work. Even if one day the whole nation of Riedra would know the truth, the Quori would just posses new figureheads and begin all over again, just even more sneaky. So in short, is this a war which never can be won? At least, not without shifting the whole Quori race into the next era of Dal Quor? I do love the Quori though, they are these are just the kind of foe which results into a lot of fun political play. Like you stated above, situations where both parties turn around the issue are quite common and quite fun with the Inspired, and it does give you the feel that they are massive and powerful opponents, but still opponents you can hurt somewhere.
Hellcow 08-27-05, 09:44 AM	So in short, is this a war which never can be won? At least, not without shifting the whole Quori race into the next era of Dal Quor? Well, you might be able to find some way to further isolate Dal Quor and keep them from reaching their vessels - though that might have weird consequences for people's dreams.
Pax 08-27-05, 11:30 AM	I will dare argue with the flaming bovine a bit though. Part of the interesting aspect of Indiana's adventures with the Nazis is the fact that we know victory is achieved in hindsight. [...] the show would be less enjoyable if you knew the Nazis wouldn't eventually be felled by other means. Star Wars. No, I'm not kidding - Star Wars. I don't know if you're old enough to remember (ANH is the first movie I remember seeing in an actual movie theater ... during opening week, inMay of '76 ... I was five at the time), but when ANH, and even ESB, first came out ... there was really no reason to suspect the Empire would ever be ultimately defeated, beyond the typical "well, the good guys are supposed to win" schtick. Yet both were grand good times to watch. Even the simple act of rescuing Princess Leia from the Death Star was a major victory for the rebellion (overshadowed by the Battle of Yavin though that victory might have been). But it, alone, didn't overthrow the Empire. You don't have to know that the enemy will ultimately be defeated to enjoy such a story ... you merely have to not know that they will WIN.
Pax 08-27-05, 11:45 AM	Well, you might be able to find some way to further isolate Dal Quor and keep them from reaching their vessels - though that might have weird consequences for people's dreams. Actually, it just occurred to me that the very reason the Dreaming Dark is so powerful and pervasive - the reason the Realmof Dreams is so solidly the Realm ofNightmares ... might be because of HOW the Giants won their war with them! I don't know if you considered this one, Keith, but: the Seelie/Unseelie court idea of the Sidhe, in celtic/gaellic mythology might apply. I mean, it really just doesn't make sense that the "realm of dreams" is so solidly in the hands of "nightmares incarnate", and is ALWAYS that way, unless something has gone seriously wrong, possibly for a very long time. So the "solution" may be to turn off the Giantish machine thatholds Dal Quor at a distance, while simultaneously (as if the first part weren't difficult enough) adapting the dimensional seals of the gatekeepers, in order to resist another influx/invasion directly from Dal Quor. This might neccessitate a third prong - eliminating or "adjusting" the Monoliths in Riedra. At which point, perhaps Dal Quor goes back into it's ancient, "natural" cycle of [good dreams / bad dreams / good dreams / bad dreams / etc]. Just a thought. :)
Snarkbone 08-27-05, 05:54 PM	So the "solution" may be to turn off the Giantish machine thatholds Dal Quor at a distance, while simultaneously (as if the first part weren't difficult enough) adapting the dimensional seals of the gatekeepers, in order to resist another influx/invasion directly from Dal Quor. This might neccessitate a third prong - eliminating or "adjusting" the Monoliths in Riedra. Let me just finish my coffee and I'll be on it like white on rice :fight!:
Hannibal 08-27-05, 09:48 PM	Actually, their may be a way to actually defeat the quori. I'm not sure it will work, I may have some of the facts wrong. But this is how it might be done. The kalashtar were originally quori that fled Dal Quor because of religious persecution. When those rebel quori possessed willing humans, they became kalashtar. Those quori no longer existed When a quori dies, a new one is created. There are always the same number of quori, correct? The only time we know of that their ranks diminishing was when the rebellious quori left and became the kalashtar. What if one of the new quori were like the quori that became kalashtar? It could then maybe find a way to become a kalashtar, thus lessening the quori by one.
Gnome_Dragon_Disciple 08-28-05, 12:36 AM	Weapons that retain the soul of creatures slain would also be a way. I believe there's one such weapon ability in the ECS... I think it's something like Keeper's Servant or something like that. In any case, slay a Quori using an item that will store the quori soul, then hide it away in the care of elves or dragons, or perhaps a powerful artifact created by the Giants. Since that quori's soul is still in existance, the balance is still there but the numbers of the quori is reduced. Now all Khorvaire needs to do is send a couple dozen adventuring groups to Xen'Drik to get a couple dozen weapons crafted by giants... +2 Soul Stealing Quori Bane Scythes ought to do the trick :P As an added bonus, it lends itself to a shady sort of "is this good?" debate as to wether even QUORI deserve to be locked up in a sword or some kobold's dagger for all eternity...
Lokiyn 08-28-05, 01:30 AM	I think that the reidrans have a major disadvantage. for one they have to cross an ocean to get to korvaire. Tempest Ship (1200 tons) Flight capable (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=440016) buwahahah problem solved. :) the thing that cracks me up is that the keel that this thing used doesn't care what size the ship is so it can get bigger! (its like carpet in that old aladdin tv show where he carried a ship.....) but honestly would the quori taking over necessarily be a bad thing :eek:
Pax 08-28-05, 01:40 AM	Weapons that retain the soul of creatures slain would also be a way. I believe there's one such weapon ability in the ECS... I think it's something like Keeper's Servant or something like that. There's a metal called "Thinaun", in Complete Adventurer I think. If that exists in Eberron, it could do the trick. Each weapon forged of it holds only one soul, and only the one most recently absorbed - it absorbs a being soul if it dies while in contact with the weapon. Catch is, it's 10,000gp extra to make a weapon out of thinaun ... so it ain't cheap. Some Thinaun Shuriken or arrows ... heh ... sure, sure, at +200gp each it's not cheap, and it's one-use, but ... As an added bonus, it lends itself to a shady sort of "is this good?" debate as to wether even QUORI deserve to be locked up in a sword or some kobold's dagger for all eternity... Evil-aligned Quori hiunters might do well to use some BoVD material - Souls can be used up - as in OBLITERATED - via ritual sacrifice, or even as optional spell components. It's a nasty, nasty thing to do ... but it would certainly reduce the Quori population. ^_^
Lokiyn 08-28-05, 02:09 AM	Evil-aligned Quori hiunters might do well to use some BoVD material - Souls can be used up - as in OBLITERATED - via ritual sacrifice, or even as optional spell components. It's a nasty, nasty thing to do ... but it would certainly reduce the Quori population. ^_^ i'm more inclined to use them in an eldritch machine a la 13 ghosts (?one with the eye of hell and the nifty glass house?) Channel the power of six sixes of sixes of sixes of sixes of sixes (2799360 Quori) make the Omega Orery and tear open a gateway the lands of the dead and let the hordes arise to shatter the living and break the world under your iron fist. :D
Hellcow 08-28-05, 11:46 PM	The kalashtar were originally quori that fled Dal Quor because of religious persecution. When those rebel quori possessed willing humans, they became kalashtar. Those quori no longer existed. The quori spirit DOES still exist - spread out among the kalashtar of its lineage. If all of those kalashtar are killed, the spirit will be reborn - in all likelihood as a corrupted servant of the Dreaming Dark. Hence, the general quori interest in eliminating the kalashtar. Weapons that retain the soul of creatures slain would also be a way. I believe there's one such weapon ability in the ECS... I think it's something like Keeper's Servant or something like that. Keeper's Fang. The KF doesn't trap the spirit in the weapon itself, though it does prevent resurrection - and outsiders can't normally be resurrected. Trapping the spirits is the way to go - as has been shown with the rakshasa rajahs - but I wouldn't make it as easy as using a Keeper's Fang. And, of course, once you start capturing a serious number of quori, the rest ARE going to take notice and view you as a threat that must be dealt with. One of the big issues with the DD is that it is patient and prefers to work as quietly as possible. But if they think you are actually threatening their race - they may throw caution to the winds. This is another point to consider about the Quori: from their perspective, they are simply trying to survive. They ARE the heroes of the battle in their minds. It's unfortunate that humanity has to suffer, but what are we? Our lives are brief flickers of light. The survival of their glory is far more important; we'd probably destroy ourselves in another few thousand years, left to our own devices. Just a point: they are a threat to US - but might we do the same thing in their position?