Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Huzzah! 12-11-06, 01:08 PM	In our game I'm playing an awakened housecat, aptly named Mr. Bigglesworth. (A cat with levels in rogue and Tiny size actually makes for an impressive spy.) A cat is listed as having the following in the MM: Full Atk: 2 claws +4 melee (1d2-4) and bite -1 melee (1d3-4) With a significant Str penalty, it's understandable that a housecat cannot really damage a PC. But how do cats ever kill rats in Eberron if a rat has 1 hp? I'd appreciate any feedback.
DarkWarriorKarg 12-11-06, 01:31 PM	Minimum damage 1 hp. Ever seen a sewer rat? They're the size of small dogs. One on one, I'd bet on one of those over a cat any day. Lab rats are comparatively tiny, almost the same size as mice. Also, remember that, in the MM, that's a cat with 10 or 11 in all attributes. An Elite cat might be able to handle a rat.
Huzzah! 12-11-06, 01:44 PM	Yeah, silly question. Thanks.
DoveArrow 12-11-06, 01:51 PM	How do cats ever kill rats in Eberron if a rat has 1 hp? To quote the SRD: Minimum Damage If penalties reduce the damage result to less than 1, a hit still deals 1 point of damage. Since cats have a +4 to their claw attacks, and rats only have AC 14, cats have a 50% chance of hitting a rat and dealing 1 point of damage with a claw. One claw attack isn't enough to kill a rat, but it is enough to leave them disabled, making them much easier to kill. You should also keep in mind that cats have a Hide of +16 and a Move Silently of +8. If used advantageously, a cat could catch a rat while flat-footed, making them much easier to hit. Incidentally, for general rules questions like this, you should probably direct them to the D&D General Forum (http://boards1.wizards.com/forumdisplay.php?f=42).
Charles Phipps 12-11-06, 01:57 PM	Odd fact. Housecats can kill peasants in Eberron. ;-)
Huzzah! 12-11-06, 02:01 PM	Then it's true then... "When Mr. Bigglesworth gets upset, people die!"
Belabras 12-11-06, 02:55 PM	Heck, the kitty can do a max of 3pts of damage a turn. That just about makes him too dangerous for the common peasant to own. I wonder what the write up for Cat Scratch Feever would look like....
Huzzah! 12-11-06, 03:09 PM	That's what was always funny whenever we played. Mr. Bigglesworth, who is a character I actually play, is a 6th level rogue. With Dodge, Mobility, and Spring Attack for feats (not to mention Weapon Finesse just for being a cat) he can run up to you, leap and scratch you for 3d6 sneak attack damage, and run away. DM: And the housecat rips the barbarian's throat out during the surprise round...
Charles Phipps 12-11-06, 03:33 PM	Remember, housecats are territorial. Anyone remember the Squirrel comic in KOTDT?
(Psi)SeveredHead 12-11-06, 06:26 PM	But rats have scent! Still, a cat has the speed to charge it. Note that a cat can fail to catch most of its prey; it doesn't need to eat that many rats a day, and can kill a few. Plus, against rats, cats should have pounce :D I watched a hysterical cat vs squirrel stalk scene from the second floor of a library (a bird's eye view). The cat sneaked up on the squirrel, charged it, and missed. The squirrel practically matrix dodged (turning a 90 degree angle) to avoid the cat. From owning a cat, I know they catch mice pretty fast (and it was a kitten!), but the kitten was smaller than the only pet rat I used to own.
Just another user 12-11-06, 06:29 PM	Odd fact. Housecats can kill peasants in Eberron. ;-) Not only in Eberron, the domestic cat is been one of the worst nightmares of 1st level wizards for all of D&D history. :D
Charles Phipps 12-11-06, 06:36 PM	*An image of a wizard on the ground with a cat having carved its way through most of its ribcage with a heart in its jaws comes to mind*
Eled_the_Worm_Tamer 12-11-06, 07:01 PM	*An image of a wizard on the ground with a cat having carved its way through most of its ribcage with a heart in its jaws comes to mind* Wich is why it is vitaly important that when you catch your familiar doing something stupid (cat owners know what I mean) you DO NOT LAUGH.
mhacdebhandia 12-11-06, 07:01 PM	It's also a fact that cats tend to kill their prey in a way which might be considered grappling in D&D - I've seen my cats pounce on things live and dead, and their claws go in and stay in.
Paulon 12-11-06, 07:03 PM	Small fuzzy animals can be such fun to play... *remembers playing a cat once under other rules... and beating up on wolves and larger predators, much less dogs and mere 1st level wizards*
Belabras 12-11-06, 07:21 PM	It's also a fact that cats tend to kill their prey in a way which might be considered grappling in D&D - I've seen my cats pounce on things live and dead, and their claws go in and stay in. That would more be covered by the Pounce and Rend mechanic. Basically, housecats hunt just like their bigger cousins do.
Huzzah! 12-12-06, 01:32 AM	That means the Sharn Animal Shelter would need to be run by at least a 5th level ranger just to avoid death from feeding time every day.
Charles Phipps 12-12-06, 01:12 PM	As a curious fact, Rangers use Housecats to help them hunt Big Game. *House cat leaps on deer* So yes, while housecats can't kill rats. They can certainly feed on humans or other more docile prey.
Melvin the Mediocre 12-12-06, 02:17 PM	House cats catch mice like this: http://us.st11.yimg.com/us.st.yimg.com/I/creativetoy_1927_130720007
Huzzah! 12-12-06, 02:32 PM	I can just imagine Lord of the Rings... "Gimli, you handle the south flank and make sure the goblins don't get past the barricades... Baromir? Don't let those worgs get around behind us, we only need to fight one front... Legolas? Keep busy with the bow and cover where needed... Fluffy?" <meow>? Can you handle the Uruk-hai? <meow>!!!
Takasi 12-12-06, 08:23 PM	Has anyone seen the illustration of the Tibbit 'crime scene' from Dragon Compendium? A LA +0 race that can polymorph into a housecat at will. Favored class is rogue. Fluffy may only do 1 point of damage but watch out for its 5d6 sneak attack!
Ryuu_Tenshi 12-12-06, 08:26 PM	... Now -I- want to play an awakened housecat rogue. Their AC must be obscene (due to size and dex). Same with reflex saves.
aelryinth 12-12-06, 08:46 PM	Heh. Reminds of Ravenloft, where in the Requiem alternate you could play undead. Crawling claws were viable characters (think THing) with insane Dex bonuses and AC because of their size. ===Aelryinth
Huzzah! 12-12-06, 11:45 PM	Mr. Bigglesworth is a 6th level rogue. Using the ability modifier rules from Savage Species, a housecat receives a +5 bonus to Dexterity at creation. With a starting score of 16 (he is a rogue, of course), that jumps to a 21. With a +1 for levels and a collar of dexterity +2, that takes it to 24. With that you go from [Ref +5] to [Ref +12]. Then add a ring of protection +1 around his tail and add +2 to AC for being Tiny. (with no armor!) AC: 20, touch 20, flat-footed 13 Throw in evasion and uncanny dodge, and Mr. Bigglesworth doesn't get touched unless Mr. Bigglesworth wants to be touched. I plan on going into the thief-acrobat prestige class in a few levels to increase the "speeding blur of furry death" feeling.
ChaoticGood 12-13-06, 12:27 AM	Using the ability modifier rules from Savage Species, a housecat receives a +5 bonus to Dexterity at creation. With a starting score of 16 (he is a rogue, of course), that jumps to a 21. With a +1 for levels and a collar of dexterity +2, that takes it to 24. Actually, it's only a +4 to Dex. Racial ability modifiers are supposed to always be even numbers in the official materials, so if a monster has an odd ability score in Savage Species, you should assume the monster originally had an 11 in that ability. (IIRC, the 3.0 monsters all had starting stats consisting of three 11s and three 10s.) It's only a one-point difference, but I have been gaining levels in the Rules Lawyer PrC and I wanted to show them off. :D
Huzzah! 12-13-06, 12:31 AM	I'll have to adjust Mr. Biggleworth's character sheet.... He won't be happy. I usually play him as a narcissistic, shallow guy with the voice of Will Ferrell's stressed-out-manager-dad. You know, the one where Sara Michelle Gellar hosted; "I am a manager over 26 people! I drive a Dodge Stratus! You will show me respect!"
Ravenscroft 12-13-06, 12:37 AM	How do you use Savage Species to adjust an Awakened Animal for play? (one of my players is wanting to do one , type as yet undetermined) Stat Mods for a Cat (page 270 , MM I) are Str : -08 / Dex : +04 / Con : +0 are these what you used? (i missed the post by ChaoticGood)
Huzzah! 12-13-06, 12:55 AM	Yeah, that's what I used. Following the actual rules, you take the creature's ability scores from a sourcebook and subtract either 10 or 11 to get an even number. You add this number to your generated ability score. So a housecat has a dex of 15 in the MMI, you subtract 11 to get a 4. Add 4 to whatever you roll for your character. You have to be careful though, if your player decides to be an awakened ape, he gets Str +10, Dex +4, and Con +4. Can you say, "level adjustment?"
Huzzah! 12-13-06, 01:17 AM	I just had a thought. A druid in the Eldeen Reaches grows lonely in his old age. Using the awaken spell, he creates companions and friends out of the creatures of the wild and local farms. He teaches them in the ways of the world. They become like a family, protecting each other and looking upon the druid as a father. He in turn sees them as his children. With his eventual passing, a menagerie of intelligent animals must suddenly find their own place in the world. The entire party could be awakened animals; housecat rogue, bear fighter, wolf ranger, raccoon wizard, etc. Like Animal Farm meets Eberron.
Ravenscroft 12-13-06, 01:28 AM	The Awakened Animal idea came up in a previous Eberron Campaign i was a player in. I was playing a Spirit Shaman. One of the other players was looking to do a new character. (he didn't like the reincarnate of his Warforged character as a Blackscale Lizardfolk) I suggested (jokingly) that i could awaken a Smilodon for him (Frostburn). He was initially enthusiastic until i told him it would be a cub , not a full-grown carnaging beast from hell. He went for the Psion character instead. (which suited the DM much better)
makeshiftwings 12-13-06, 01:28 AM	The entire party could be awakened animals; housecat rogue, bear fighter, wolf ranger, raccoon wizard, etc. Like Animal Farm meets Eberron. Ever since the awakened pigs joined The Aurum, life just hasn't been the same.
Charles Phipps 12-13-06, 02:20 AM	George Orwell wrote about that party.
Hatchetman240 12-13-06, 05:48 AM	If you ever lived in NYC you would understand that rats kill cats... cats kill mice. A real "rat" gets even bigger than some housecats and will do a number on a cat.
Hennet 12-13-06, 06:03 AM	What happens with an awakened creatures intelligence. It says in the PHB about gettting 3d6 intelligence and +1d3 charisma, and +2 HD. How does this affect playing one as a character. What if I was to use a 32-point buy? Would I assign my 32 points off abilities (like normal) and then just add 3d6 intelligence AND +1d3 charisma on top of that????? and what about the +2 HD, how would that work???
Huzzah! 12-13-06, 01:05 PM	We ignored the 2 HD and the 3d6 intelligence and the +1d3 Charisma. I think that's if the awakened animal is an NPC. We did the substraction method to find racial modifiers, did a point buy, and applied the modifiers to physical attributes. If the base creature had HD, that counts against the LA, but otherwise we just used class HD. Example: Cat HD 1/2 d8 (2hp) No level adjustment Str -8, Dex +4, Con +0, Int (ignore), Wis (ignore), Cha (ignore) We also kept the base creature's speed, attacks, special attacks, special qualities, and feats. Everything else we just ditched. Another Example: Cheetah 3d8+6 (+3 LA) Str +6, Dex +8, Con +4 Feats: Alertness, Weapon Finesse With a speed of 50 ft., this would make one nasty Scout. Kind of sloppy, but it really streamlined the process. We just worked it out with our DM what our actual LA would end up being. The housecat got a +0 LA since it can only deal 1hp of damage and can never wear armor. The cheetah, however, I would give a higher LA than 3 for obvious reasons.
Ravenscroft 12-13-06, 02:26 PM	Giving an Awakened Cheetah higher than a +03 LA sounds a bit harsh , and way underpowered compared to other +04 or higher LA. Did you get the benefits of being a Magical Beast? 10-sided Hit Dice. Base attack bonus equal to total Hit Dice (as fighter). Good Fortitude and Reflex saves. Skill points equal to (2 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die, with quadruple skill points for the first Hit Die. Darkvision out to 60 feet and low-light vision. Proficient with its natural weapons only. Proficient with no armor. Magical beasts eat, sleep, and breathe. We know you already have your character in play , i am curious as to the mechanics is all.
Kensan_Oni 12-13-06, 02:59 PM	I was playing an anthro Cheetah Swashbuckler in a Dragonstar campaign. Let me tell you, Weapon Finesse on a 24 Dex sprinting machine is not something you want to see anyone have.
goblin_pride 12-13-06, 04:07 PM	One of the other players was looking to do a new character. (he didn't like the reincarnate of his Warforged character as a Blackscale Lizardfolk) I always allowed the druid to bias the roll on the reincarnate spell by up to their level one way or the other, allowing the druid to basically hand-pick the new form to a degree. But then I also took out that "willing subject" bit so that if you really torqued off a druid he could reincarnate you as whatever he felt was appropriate and you don't have a choice. (talk about the ultimate corrective measure)
Hellcow 12-13-06, 04:13 PM	Since cats have a +4 to their claw attacks, and rats only have AC 14, cats have a 50% chance of hitting a rat and dealing 1 point of damage with a claw. One claw attack isn't enough to kill a rat, but it is enough to leave them disabled, making them much easier to kill. You should also keep in mind that cats have a Hide of +16 and a Move Silently of +8. If used advantageously, a cat could catch a rat while flat-footed, making them much easier to hit. This is how SRD cats catch SRD rats, and applies to any setting. Since the question is asked on the Eberron board, the answer is obvious. Just as black cats are seen as creatures of ill omen in our world, the black cats of Eberron have the potential to develop abberant dragonmarks. So how do cats catch rats in Eberron? Well, they either kill them directly with chill touch or inflict light wounds, or kill and grill them with burning hands. After all, in a world where (blink) dogs can teleport, people shouldn't be SO surprised by the kitten with charm person...
goblin_pride 12-13-06, 04:30 PM	Just as black cats are seen as creatures of ill omen in our world, the black cats of Eberron have the potential to develop abberant dragonmarks. So how do cats catch rats in Eberron? Well, they either kill them directly with chill touch or inflict light wounds, or kill and grill them with burning hands. Now there's a scary thought.
Belabras 12-13-06, 04:41 PM	This is how SRD cats catch SRD rats, and applies to any setting. Since the question is asked on the Eberron board, the answer is obvious. Just as black cats are seen as creatures of ill omen in our world, the black cats of Eberron have the potential to develop abberant dragonmarks. So how do cats catch rats in Eberron? Well, they either kill them directly with chill touch or inflict light wounds, or kill and grill them with burning hands. After all, in a world where (blink) dogs can teleport, people shouldn't be SO surprised by the kitten with charm person... Puss in Boots eat your heart out! :ayyyy!:
Just another user 12-13-06, 05:51 PM	This is how SRD cats catch SRD rats, and applies to any setting. Since the question is asked on the Eberron board, the answer is obvious. Just as black cats are seen as creatures of ill omen in our world, the black cats of Eberron have the potential to develop abberant dragonmarks. So how do cats catch rats in Eberron? Well, they either kill them directly with chill touch or inflict light wounds, or kill and grill them with burning hands. After all, in a world where (blink) dogs can teleport, people shouldn't be SO surprised by the kitten with charm person... Wow, Black cats are REALLY bad luck. And I'm not surprised that cats have thier own place in the Prophecy, being the superior creatures that they are.
(Psi)SeveredHead 12-13-06, 05:59 PM	Has anyone seen the really old creepy Michael Jackson movie where a cat murdered a human by literally jumping down their throat (and then not getting out until the human stopped moving)?
Raziel_Brokodar 12-13-06, 09:32 PM	sorry to be like this but... what did the OP have to do with Eberron? 'how do cats catch rats in D&D?' would be more appropriate
Huzzah! 12-13-06, 09:35 PM	Sorry! Miscommunication. ECL and LA are two separate things. Although the LA of a cheetah should probably be 2 or 3, it begins play with 3HD before your even roll up your character. We just translate it into pure LA and go from there. While a cheetah is listed as a CR 2, that's because a creature your party fights against only gets to use its abilities for 3 or 4 rounds before it's dead. That's why some more complex creatures have tactics listed in their description, to show what they would do to maximize their abilities in the short time they have left to live. But as a character, you can use those abilities a hypothetical infinite number of times as often as you like. While a cheetah with Str 16, Dex 19, and Con 15 is the equivalent of a 2nd level character when you only have to deal with it for an encounter, a PC with Str +6, Dex +8, and Con +4 is a whole nother story.
Huzzah! 12-13-06, 09:47 PM	Mr. Bigglesworth: male awakened housecat Rogue 6; CR 6; Tiny magical beast; HD 6d6+6; hp 28; Init +7; Spd 30ft.; AC 20, touch 20, flat-footed 13; Atk 2 claws +13 melee (1d2-4) and bite +8 melee (1d3-4); SA sneak attack +3d6; SQ low-light vision, scent, evasion, trapfinding, trap sense +2, uncanny dodge; AL LN; Fort +3, Ref +12, Will +2; Str 3, Dex 23, Con 11, Int 16, Wis 10, Cha 14. Skills and Feats: Balance +18, Bluff +11, Climb +20, Diplomacy +13, Gather Information +11, Hide +28 (+32 in tall grass or heavy undergrowth), Intimidate +13, Jump +26, Move Silently +20, Search +12, Tumble +18; Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Weapon Finesse. Possessions: ring of protection +1, Mr. Bigglesworth’s collar (duplicates gloves of dexterity +2), bag of holding I (worn like a backpack). In Bag of Holding: quaal’s feather token (tree) (4), invisibility pill, reduce person pill, cure light wounds pill (3), catnip, 180 gp, 130 sp. Our party got tired of having vials break, so we convinced our DM to let us have pills ala Ptolus.
Belabras 12-13-06, 11:02 PM	I shudder to imagine what Bigglesworth might do while on the 'nip.
goblin_pride 12-13-06, 11:11 PM	I shudder to imagine what Bigglesworth might do while on the 'nip. Dude, what happens in Sharn stays in Sharn, 'nuff said?
Orion Polaris 12-14-06, 01:21 AM	You think cats are bad? The average commoner stands no chance against a horrid rat!
Ryuu_Tenshi 12-14-06, 08:40 PM	Mr. Bigglesworth: male awakened housecat Rogue 6; CR 6; Tiny magical beast; HD 6d6+6; hp 28; Init +7; Spd 30ft.; AC 20, touch 20, flat-footed 13; Atk 2 claws +13 melee (1d2-4) and bite +8 melee (1d3-4); SA sneak attack +3d6; SQ low-light vision, scent, evasion, trapfinding, trap sense +2, uncanny dodge; AL LN; Fort +3, Ref +12, Will +2; Str 3, Dex 23, Con 11, Int 16, Wis 10, Cha 14. Skills and Feats: Balance +18, Bluff +11, Climb +20, Diplomacy +13, Gather Information +11, Hide +28 (+32 in tall grass or heavy undergrowth), Intimidate +13, Jump +26, Move Silently +20, Search +12, Tumble +18; Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Weapon Finesse. Possessions: ring of protection +1, Mr. Bigglesworth’s collar (duplicates gloves of dexterity +2), bag of holding I (worn like a backpack). In Bag of Holding: quaal’s feather token (tree) (4), invisibility pill, reduce person pill, cure light wounds pill (3), catnip, 180 gp, 130 sp. Our party got tired of having vials break, so we convinced our DM to let us have pills ala Ptolus. Query: how does he get those pills out of the bag in combat? Or does he...?
Quasidork 12-14-06, 10:02 PM	Mr. Bigglesworth: male awakened housecat Rogue 6; CR 6; Tiny magical beast; HD 6d6+6; hp 28; Init +7; Spd 30ft.; AC 20, touch 20, flat-footed 13; Atk 2 claws +13 melee (1d2-4) and bite +8 melee (1d3-4); SA sneak attack +3d6; SQ low-light vision, scent, evasion, trapfinding, trap sense +2, uncanny dodge; AL LN; Fort +3, Ref +12, Will +2; Str 3, Dex 23, Con 11, Int 16, Wis 10, Cha 14. Skills and Feats: Balance +18, Bluff +11, Climb +20, Diplomacy +13, Gather Information +11, Hide +28 (+32 in tall grass or heavy undergrowth), Intimidate +13, Jump +26, Move Silently +20, Search +12, Tumble +18; Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Weapon Finesse. Possessions: ring of protection +1, Mr. Bigglesworth’s collar (duplicates gloves of dexterity +2), bag of holding I (worn like a backpack). In Bag of Holding: quaal’s feather token (tree) (4), invisibility pill, reduce person pill, cure light wounds pill (3), catnip, 180 gp, 130 sp. My question is, why can't you wear armor? Sure, you'd have to craft special "Cat Barding" but if a horse can have armor, so could you. You could spend 310 gold (x1 cost for tiny non-humanoid) and get Mwk Leather Armor (+1 armor, Max Dex +6, No ACP) with a weight of 1.5 lbs. (15 lbs. x 1/10) and before anyone says "hey, Leather armor provides +2 armor" please note on the Armor for Unsual Creatures sidebar the asterik next to "Tiny or Smaller" and that it means to divide the Armor bonus by 2. Of course, you get one more Dex, it's going to be next to meaningless (difference of +1 to touch AC vs. +1 vs. flatfooted AC) and 3 Dex will make it better to not wear armor at all, unless you get your Leather Armor enchanted.
Ravenscroft 12-14-06, 10:20 PM	Greater Magic Fang with Permanency. An Artificer could do both and use his Craft Reserve for a Permanency Scroll (1500xp)
Thindelock 12-16-06, 08:54 PM	File this in the "For What It's Worth" department, which ain't much, but I asked WotC Customer Service via email about awakened animal PCs. I know, I know, their answers have been way off mark many times. This was long ago. I was young and needed the gold. Anyway, their answer was that you roll the charater's stats normally, apply any mods to physical ability scores from the base animal, and have animal hit dice. No level adjustment. They were silent on the "magical beast" and "+2HD" questions, because I didn't ask specifically. Really, while there's a lot of potential for brokenness at first glance, bear in mind that the vast majority of animals do not have opposable thumbs. Yes, the cat rogue deals great sneak-attack damage and has an awesome hide score. Too bad he can't disable a device, open a lock (or a door), use most weapons, or drink a mug of ale with anything short of comic results. Playing an awakened primate, however, is beyond wrong. It's Discworld wrong.
Kensan_Oni 12-16-06, 09:53 PM	Playing an awakened primate, however, is beyond wrong. It's Discworld wrong. Sigged! :D
goblin_pride 12-16-06, 09:55 PM	Playing an awakened primate, however, is beyond wrong. It's Discworld wrong. Ooook?
Huzzah! 12-16-06, 10:10 PM	I use my paw to get pills out of the bag, how else? I debated the issue of armor with my DM. He firmly holds that any armor I have commissioned from anyone, even grand high muckety-muck Cannith, won't be able to get it to wear on me like normal armor or barding should. If there were a civilization of intelligent housecats who took the time and energy to figure out how armor would fit well on a cat, maybe. He ruled the Dex check would worsen by at least 4 and the AC provided would go down by 1. It evens out anyway. With Tiny size and a good Dex score, I don't end up needing armor very often anyway. I wanted to see how an awakened animal would do in play badly enough I agreed to the arbitration and went with it anyway. Yes, I do have some problems with no opposable thumbs, but we have great roleplaying opportunities when I pretend to be the familiar of the party sorceror. It's priceless when the captured orc tied to a chair is getting ready for the fighter to interrogate him, when suddenly Mr. Bigglesworth leaps on his chest, looks him in the eye, and says, "Okay Ugly, you're going to tell me anything and everything I want to know, or I'm going to go scratching post on your crotch. Got it?"
Quasidork 12-16-06, 11:30 PM	... or drink a mug of ale with anything short of comic results. um, that's easy, you ask for your ale in a saucer.