Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Seth of the First Brigade 02-23-07, 05:16 PM	The question is pretty much the title of the thread. I have a game in a few hours and needed a quick answer. No time to look through the books. Please help. I am currently working on other items for the game tonight, and will check back every few minutes for your responces. Thanks! PS: My real question is would a Cyrean be a worshiper of the Silver Flame?
Yakman 02-23-07, 05:21 PM	I would imagine that a number of them would have converted to the Silver Flame.
Seth of the First Brigade 02-23-07, 05:31 PM	I would imagine that a number of them would have converted to the Silver Flame. Why?
Yakman 02-23-07, 05:36 PM	Why? It's a faith that while strict, lends hope to people, and tells them that although evil exists in the world, it can and should be, fought to the hilt. I would imagine that the Cyran refugees would find some comfort and common cause in it. Moreover, Thrane and Cyre were bordering states--there are going to be cultural and family connections that would lend themselves to conversion--Cyrans are going to go to their extended family members in Thrane and see that despite their suffering (remember Thrane was just as war ravaged as pre-mourning Cyre) they are working together to build up their country.
Seth of the First Brigade 02-23-07, 05:59 PM	It's a faith that while strict, lends hope to people, and tells them that although evil exists in the world, it can and should be, fought to the hilt. I would imagine that the Cyran refugees would find some comfort and common cause in it. Moreover, Thrane and Cyre were bordering states--there are going to be cultural and family connections that would lend themselves to conversion--Cyrans are going to go to their extended family members in Thrane and see that despite their suffering (remember Thrane was just as war ravaged as pre-mourning Cyre) they are working together to build up their country. Just for reference sake where did you glean this information? Which book? Also if this is the case who was Cyres greatest enemy in the last War, whether within or ouside of the Five Nations?
Yakman 02-23-07, 06:04 PM	That's just my take on things. I would imagine that Cyre and Thrane fought some rather vicious combats, and killed many thousands of each other. However, the Cyreans were running for their lives (literally), and the Cyreans near the borders with Thrane would've ended up there. There were also probably a good number of Silver Flamers in this region, given it's proximity to Thrane. Thrane gains nothing by persecuting these people, and from the descriptions of Thrane, they don't seem like intolerant folk (at least to humans). You could have a Cyrean character who doesn't like the Thranes--his family was murdered by rampaging Thranes or some such. But you could also have a character who's family was taken in by Thranes, or who was personally saved by a Thrane. As for Cyre's greatest enemy? Darguun.
Nuclear_Buddha 02-23-07, 06:23 PM	I always kind of figured that Cyre's most implacable enemy was Karrnath. Karrnath didn't have a lot of other nations to fight over on that side of the continent (since the easy route to Aundair was cut). In my campaign I've kind of had the "at least we aren't being sent to the Karrnathi front" thing hanging over the PC's heads. The Valenar probably are a close second. After all, they were supposed to be on Cyre's side, but ended up stealing a huge chunk of the country right out from under their supposed employers.
Yakman 02-23-07, 06:30 PM	I always kind of figured that Cyre's most implacable enemy was Karrnath. Karrnath didn't have a lot of other nations to fight over on that side of the continent (since the easy route to Aundair was cut). In my campaign I've kind of had the "at least we aren't being sent to the Karrnathi front" thing hanging over the PC's heads. The Valenar probably are a close second. After all, they were supposed to be on Cyre's side, but ended up stealing a huge chunk of the country right out from under their supposed employers. I would agree with Karrnath, but for two things: 1) We are told that Karrnath was hit extremely hard by plagues and such early in the war. Moreover, they lost a large portion of their power when the Mror Holds seceded. As such, and until we are completely driven from speculation by the Last War sourcebook, I'd like to think that they were marginal after the first few years of the war and only rallied in the last decades when their necromancers took control of the war effort. At that point, I'd think they were a royal pain in Cyre's behind, but the Thranish and the Valenar were likely so offended that a lot of Karrnath's energies were tied up defending their country rather than attacking Cyre. 2) Darguun actually managed to seize a huge portion of Cyre's territory, which Karrnath never did. As for Valenar.... Both Darguun and Valenar are states formed from rebelling mercenaries. However, unlike Valenar, present Darguun was densely inhabited land of economic value. Valenar may have conquered 10,000 Cyreans in all the land they seized, and launched raids into Cyre. But Darguun still has over 80,000 human residents. We can assume that there were hundreds of thousands of humans there before the goblinoids seized the territory. Cyre may have had to deal with Valenar raids, but they were having to deal with whole goblinoid armies.
G_O_D 02-23-07, 06:37 PM	In Keith Braker's Dreaming Dark Trilogy one of the lead characters; Daine, was from Cyre and whorshipped the flame before he lost all faith after the mourning. Also, I believe in the Faiths of Eberron book it states that there where flamers from all nations fighting each other in the last war. You can't look a religion in the same sense as nations even when there is a theocracy involved. Look at the real world; during WW2 there where no theocracies but the majority of both sides where christian. I hope this helps you.
Cifer 02-23-07, 07:02 PM	Why? Why not? Why shouldn't some Cyran come to believe that the Silver Flame is a good protector of people? Say, he fled to Thrane and now lives in a village near the border of the Mournland. One day, strange creatures came out of the mists, but then the crusaders of the Flame banished them. Overwhelmed by this (and quite happy he wasn't eaten), he converts.
OneWinged4ngel 02-23-07, 07:30 PM	To answer your question: Many Cyrans believed in the Silver Flame. If you insist on specific examples for some reason, since you fervently believe for some strange reason that the religion is linked intrinsically to Thrane (it isn't, and many believers in the SF aren't so amiable towards Thrane), I would point you to one of the main characters of Keith Baker's novels: Daine in The Dreaming Dark trilogy. Cyran. Believed in the Flame. There you go.
Nightshade 02-24-07, 05:46 PM	I agree that Karnath was a pain in Cyre's rear but they were not each other's most implacable foes. Thrane and Karnath were each other's nemeses. Holy Clerics v. Necromancy. These two are just antithetical both philosophically and morally. I remember reading about this somewhere but can't remember from which book right now. Sure, Cyre had problems with Karnath but Cyre's main enemies were Valenar (who also liked to attack Karnath), Darguun, and Breland. Cyre had no border with Aundair which probably contributed to their early alliance. Thrane was also a problem for Cyre but not so much as Breland.
Nuclear_Buddha 02-24-07, 06:52 PM	I'll agree that Darguun was a problem for Cyre, but one has to remember that despite new nations breaking away or being formed, the main political struggle of the war was between the 5 Nations. Beating Darguun or the Valenar gains you nothing when there are still 4 usurpers claiming that throne that's rightfully yours. Additionally, once the Valenar got what they wanted, they just stuck to raiding. That's quite preferable to a horde of the undead looking to occupy eastern Cyre. Darguun was probably similar. Though they fielded armies, they were probably more concerned with looting and pillaging than actually holding land; they needed (and still need) to consolidate what they were able to take away. This is why I suggest Karrnath was the more implacable foe. They weren't going to be satisfied until the Queen's head was on a pike and Kaius was in Thronehold. The elves and goblinoids might have been feared and hated, but I figured that the nobility of Cyre usually just wrote them off as exceptionally strong bandits that would be dealt with once the matter of the succession was solved.
Meloncov 02-25-07, 01:46 AM	Many famies from Cyre worshiped the Silver Flame going back to before the war. However, Thrane's reffusal to accept Cyran refugees most have bittered things.
Cifer 02-25-07, 05:14 PM	Thrane was also a problem for Cyre but not so much as Breland. IIRC, Breland and Cyre were allied most of the time...
OneWinged4ngel 02-25-07, 05:32 PM	IIRC, Breland and Cyre were allied most of the time... You do realize Breland kinda... *started it* against Cyre, right? Heh. Wroann's ambition to usurp Mishann is what started it all. Anywho, I'll repeat... Silver Flame worship is not intrinsically linked to Thrane. In fact, many worshippers of the Silver Flame may very well hate Thrane and have fought their armies during the Last War.
Hopeless 03-02-07, 04:03 PM	You do realize Breland kinda... *started it* against Cyre, right? Heh. Wroann's ambition to usurp Mishann is what started it all. Anywho, I'll repeat... Silver Flame worship is not intrinsically linked to Thrane. In fact, many worshippers of the Silver Flame may very well hate Thrane and have fought their armies during the Last War. Whilst that may be true at least Breland has shown more concern towards Cyre than the others did anyone know why Cyre wasn't included in that treaty? Personally Karrnath was the greater threat until their "leader" realised he was getting nowhere with the war, most probably because it meant it was only a matter of time before someone figured out what Kaius had to give in return for the aid of the Blood of Vol... However the Thranes are about due for a tragedy of their own, the very source of their Flame is part mortal, part couatl and part fiend and I suspect that fiend part is going to be used as an excuse to explain their zeolotry. I find it telling its got so bad their new leader is an eleven year old child, looks to me like someone's trying to make a point and I suspect thats what they need to worry about... By the way did it actually say how the previous leaders of the Flame died? I was kind of planning on revealing a Cyran Paladin of the Flame executed the leader of the Flame for treason against the Gallifaran Empire when they refused to recognise the true heir and started the Last War... Yes kind of extreme but I kind of thought appropriate since that Paladin didn't lose his abilities because he was right and the problem with thrane is that they certainly didn't understand what actually happened and more importantly why... Sorry to go off topic but I thought it might work better to explain why Cyrans still believe in the Flame even though the Thranes aren't liked or trusted...
helzapoppn 03-02-07, 04:14 PM	Cyre wasn't included in the Thronehold Treaty for the simple reason that "Cyre" had ceased to exist as a nation. To address the original question, Thrane as a nation closed its border to Cyran refugees, so that may be a source of friction. But individual Thranes almost certainly have family, cultural and religious ties to some of the surviving Cyrans, just as some other individual Thranes hate all "Mourners" with a passion. But most, I would guess, are neutral to ambivalent on the subject, and have probably been too busy with their own petty concerns to consider the Cyrans' plight. There is no one answer, no "right" answer, to the question.
Hopeless 03-02-07, 04:59 PM	Cyre wasn't included in the Thronehold Treaty for the simple reason that "Cyre" had ceased to exist as a nation. To address the original question, Thrane as a nation closed its border to Cyran refugees, so that may be a source of friction. But individual Thranes almost certainly have family, cultural and religious ties to some of the surviving Cyrans, just as some other individual Thranes hate all "Mourners" with a passion. But most, I would guess, are neutral to ambivalent on the subject, and have probably been too busy with their own petty concerns to consider the Cyrans' plight. There is no one answer, no "right" answer, to the question. Excuse me? The treaty was supposedly the result of the aftermath of Cyre's destruction, just having a token member present would have gone far to prove the seriousness of this treaty... what you've described is exactly what's been hinted in the ECS that this treaty is merely window dressing and the last war is far from the last... And as for Thrane as I've stated before I find it telling the new leader is an eleven year old... kind of indicates that the Flame is far from ignorant of the problems they've got as a theocracy and have they made no attempt to help the Cyran refugees?
Nuclear_Buddha 03-02-07, 05:07 PM	The Treaty of Thronehold, among other things, established what political entities on Khorvaire got to legally be called nations. Why include a people literally without a place to live in such a discussion? It also takes arguably the most legitimant claimant to the throne of Galifar completely out of the picture.
Hopeless 03-02-07, 05:48 PM	The Treaty of Thronehold, among other things, established what political entities on Khorvaire got to legally be called nations. Why include a people literally without a place to live in such a discussion? It also takes arguably the most legitimant claimant to the throne of Galifar completely out of the picture. True, shame there isn't a female heir so they could arrange a political marriage with a Brelish noble thereby cement some relations with Breland that would offset those worries about Cyre having to carve their new home out of their only real ally. Can't help wondering though, every time i hear abou these dragon prophecy I keep expecting to find out some dragon had a direct hand in trying to get it to come true according to their viewpoint rather than a true prophecy where the meaning becomes clear without someone altering things to match. It would be nice if we could get comparison view of how the Cyrans view the other nations even Darguun and Valenar... Anything concrete on why the thranes refused entry of Cyran refugees?
Hrt 03-04-07, 01:32 AM	I think this quote from Five Nations sums up how Thranes feel about Cyrians. "The corrupt and faithless Cyrians got what they deserved. It was the judgment of the flame."
Hopeless 03-04-07, 08:38 AM	I think this quote from Five Nations sums up how Thranes feel about Cyrians. "The corrupt and faithless Cyrians got what they deserved. It was the judgment of the flame." Wow that makes me look at the Lost Mark trilogy and remember at the various ways a group of Paladins (Excluded on grounds I still haven't figured out how to set up a spoiler section) and just think... KARMA.
goblin_pride 03-04-07, 10:33 AM	It would be nice if we could get comparison view of how the Cyrans view the other nations even Darguun and Valenar... I'm guessing those two nations are referred to in baser tones, with the bulk of the verbiage being in obscenities. Although I will point out that Darguun has been around for 29 years or so at the end of the last war, it's not as new a nation as Valenar.
Rainy_day_man 03-05-07, 06:59 AM	I think that they hate each other very very much.