Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Bubba333 08-31-04, 03:45 AM	As a pretty new DM I was wondering how you all handle your PCs leveling-up. Do you require in-game justification for it, or do you just say "POOF! You're a 2nd Level Ranger and know Two-Weapon Fighting now!"? Am I on the right track in asking the players to justify Skills, Feats, Abilities, etc.? I've been going with they can't just up and know a Skill (or gain a Feat or Ability) without it being in the game somehow (For example, a monk character has been training the ranger in martial arts so that she can gain the Improved Unarmed Strike Feat). I appreciate any advice you might have. :D
DMSkippy099 08-31-04, 04:58 AM	Hey Bubba! For a very long time I tried to hang on to verisimilitude, and have the players justify every new bit of knowledge gained in game. In order to use pick pocket, they had to tell me a level before that they were going to start training (pay a thief to teach them etc). Slowly I started to ease these rules away, and without noticing, the game got better. Finally about a year ago, I totally did away with training and justified advancements, and it was the best thing I ever did....ok that is a bit of an exaggeration, but it did work out well. In DnD there is a certain amount of suspension of disbelief, and I think that training and its ilk falls under that blanket. If you just focus on the game, and the story/quest/campaign at hand, you can just assume that the PC is working on improving skills in his free time. Think about the scene in "The Fellowship of the Ring" where the hobbits and Borrimir are practicing swordplay. PC's tend to spend a lot of time traveling/camping. What do you think your characters are doing in the evening after dinner is eaten and camp set up?? The fighter is dueling with the rogue. The ranger is out tracking in the wilds. The wizard is reading a small book on Alchemy or history that she brought along. The sorcerer is teaching the other fighter how to tap the magical energy in his blood...i.e. next level up fighter is going to multi class Sor!! All of this stuff can happen behind the scenes, because really what matters to the story isn't who you learned how to pick locks from, but that you are able to pick the lock on the cage that holds you and your party in the bugbear camp! Stick to the important points of the adventure....cut away all of the dead wood that is not moving the game ever forward! Now as a disclaimer here to hopefully avoid the flames that may follow, this is just my opinion....it works for me. Try it! It may work for you. One other point to note here, is that propelling the story may include special training or "who taught you how to pick the lock." If it does, then keep it in the game because it is important. But don't spend precious game time trying to figure out how the rogue is gaining skill points in perform (epic poem). Maybe he was telling epic poems around the campfire every night on the trip from Sharn to Tantamar! Last but not least, I do make PC's rationalize moves to the more dedicated classes.....druid, cleric. If they want to do this the character has to take a year off to go study or commune, or whatever....you can only suspend so much disbelief! :) Hope this helps you out.....It took me a lot of years of DMing to figure this out on my own. Give it a shot....maybe it will help you out! Skippy
AvonRekaes 08-31-04, 05:17 AM	Actually, I followed the exact opposite path of DMSkippy. I used to run games with no restrictions on this kind of thing. Eventually, I felt that it was lacking in flavor and that my PCs (who were new to the game) were more detatched from their characters because of it. I'm still rather lenient, as I don't force you to tell me when your upping a skill you already have or that can be done untrained (If you can atempt it without training, my feeling is that you can train yourself). Feat choices I usually just ask what you're going for and only ask for a justification if I feel the feat choice is a significant departure from how you have played your character before. Such as a paladin suddenly picking a metamagic feat after focusing on mounted combat since first level. Multiclassing into a new class I almost always ask for in-game justification. Even switching from say, Paladin to Cleric. Something has to make you embrace the tenents of your religion enough to put down your sword and anchor you in the faith enough to gain domains and greater spellcasting. Easier casses like this, however, can usually be explained by an epiphany. But I still want it there, in game. I also encourage downtime between levels but don't force it. How do I pull this off? I house-rule that if you spend a week of downtime training in whatever class your leveling (unless it's the first level of a new class you are taking besides PrCs) you get to reroll your class HD until it rolls above average. (3-4 on a d4, 4-6 on a d6, etc.) Training costs 100 x desired level gp. For instance, you go from 5th to 6th level fighter. Training takes a week and 600 gp. The costs of training include things like non-magical manuals on the subject you're trying to learn, an actual instructor for lower levels (Especially in Eberron where you probably couldn't find someone higher than your PC to instruct you after about level 12.), and general supplies. But, you can always opt to take your level and get stuck with that 1 on your 1d10 roll. ^_^ I generally like the way this is going, because the downtime encourages my players to actually play their character. Again, they are rather new to this, so perhaps for more experienced players it isn't necessary. But whatever floats your boat!
Bubba333 08-31-04, 05:36 AM	Wow! Thanks for the great advice, both of you. Hmmm, after thinking about it and then reading your posts, I'm thinking that simply asking how they learn "X, Y or Z" should be enough (as opposed to working it into the game as anything more than a description). The time spent training will be assumed, etc. Perhaps some specialized training might involve more, such as a player simply stating that their PC is attending the Arcanix to gain levels in Wizard, and then blue-booking the story for that time (some very cool plot-hooks could arise!). More of story flavor to make it seem more "earned" in a sense. Makes sense? (Of course not! It's 2:30 A.M. and I'm watching the Ben Stiller Show!) Again, thanks for the great ideas.
DMSkippy099 08-31-04, 06:24 AM	Wow talk about the two opposite poles there huh! hehehe That is great.......I don't think that I have ever seen that happen on a message board! Usually you get the myriad shades of gray...never the black and white! Well said Avon! I definitely agree that if the training aspect is going to improve the story, or it helps get the PCs in touch with the characters....go for it. I play with all veteran DnD'ers (10+ years), and they are the types that are crazy about getting into their characters! Loads o' fun! Glad the posts helped you out! Skippy
Lara Flynn 08-31-04, 09:13 AM	Well, if Skippy is Mr. White and Avon is Mr. Black than I'm Ms. Chessboard. :D And I think your idea is pretty okay, Bubba. My players were bored when I introduced rules for leveling up and justyfing this and that. But they were also reluctant when one of them just became a peace-loving cleric (being the brutal kind of fighter before). Thus I just made it a DM call. I decide what's resonable and what not. It works pretty well. People got used to what I usually rule like and prepare in advance. They are working it into the story and it's great. I just felt that rules are just slowing down the game for my group but free-for-all is too much of a mess for most of my players too, as sometimes they forget that crunch needs flavor to be cool. This way it's in tune and allright. But don't forget to ask your group about it.
Bubba333 08-31-04, 11:59 AM	I think they'll be fine with having to justify why they gain something. Heck, just a simple, "I read a book on the The Last War" would be enough for me if they wanted some ranks in Knowledge (history). BTW, my warforged monk NPC just gained Weapon Focus (Two-Bladed Sword) and I was explaining his devotion to practice for a while now. As a complete tangent, I had him (the monk NPC) carrying a quarterstaff and learned that it was pointless to do so when they fought to subdue an enemy. He had to take a -4 every time (on top of his -2 with Flurry of Blows) with the quarterstaff and did 1d6+4 if he hit. Of course, he could've just used unarmed strikes without the -4 and still caused 1d6+4! I'm a knob. The players were nice enough to suspend their disbelief and allow me to "rewind" and say he never had the quarterstaff. Anyhoo, I'll LYK how it turns out..
Angelion 08-31-04, 12:01 PM	In 1st edition AD&D, you used to need to find a higher lvl trainer, untill a certain lvl where you learnt yourself, but it also cost 1000 gp per lvl to train. It was quite challenging I think ^^
Loca`ne 08-31-04, 12:27 PM	How I've always run things and how it's just 'understood' in any gaming group I've gamed with, lvling up is only after we get xp, and we only get xp when we've finished a campain. so picture it like this. You've just finished off the main bad guy boss, looted his dungeon, scoured the rooms for any unnoticed treasure and start hauling it all back to your town/home base, whatever. you tally it all up, sell off what everyone doesn't want and divy up the gold as evenly as possible. then the players go out and purchase what they want in items, and other what not. During this you do your actual 'training' in your spare time, or you can even specify you go to a sertain place to be taught. Usually though inbetween adventures takes about 1-4 months depending on what's going on... in this time you do everything you want and everything you have to in order to have your skills/feats and whatever else. I would not ever require my players to specify what they are doing during this time... this is usually the time of relfection, patting of back on a job well done and general mayhem in the group. I would also not subject myself to a group that did require specifics in lvling up. I'm a good RPer, I do it often,.... much to the chargrin of my DM :devil: half the time. I'll do very odd things but I will not like and probably will leave if forced to RP something that is nonessiential IMNSHO, yes not so humble opinion but there it is none the less. Loca
Loca`ne 08-31-04, 12:30 PM	The players were nice enough to suspend their disbelief and allow me to "rewind" and say he never had the quarterstaff. There's always a rewind button but it breaks after 2 or 3 uses. :P seriously though, I've had to use a rewind button a few times in my own settings as has my DM had to himself and also has allowed me to once... eer maybe twice. but that's OT... sorry continue you alls discussion. Loca
polt 08-31-04, 12:30 PM	Well in my game, you can't take ranks in Ride (for example), if someone didn't learn you to do it, or you tried to learn it your self.
eRaz0r 08-31-04, 01:06 PM	The thing about previous editions was that levelling up was a less common occurrence than the current rules. Now you can level up ever few sessions. If you have the kind of game where there's a lot of off-screen downtime between sessions, then the characters can "train" during that time. But if you're running a marathon dungeon crawl where every session picks up right where the last one left off - you're going to be hard justified to require the PCs to train or otherwise do something non-adventurous to level up. So what's your option then ? Tell them they can't level up ? Make them stop their dungeon crawl and go back to town every couple of days? No - you wave your hands and say "You're a 2nd level ranger, and now you're better at wielding two weapons than you were" :)
Bubba333 08-31-04, 01:09 PM	All good ideas. As far as the "rewind button", I hesitate usung it, however when I do I'm never too proud to admit a mistake and explain it to the players. I've had GMs that could do no wrong and would kill your PC for questioning them. But i digress! ;)
hiryuu 08-31-04, 01:18 PM	I run a couple ways. Action film/wuxia/kung fu movie: you had those skills and/or feats all along, but you hesitated in using them, for fear of their dangerous power. Well, I'm not sure, but I only just now started noticing: you really didn't notice your improvements in skill until lately when someone pointed it out, and you realized you were a lot better than you thought!
Slizaro 08-31-04, 02:32 PM	I've always handedled things reasonably loosly. I require down time to level up, but that is the down time that occures at the end of an adventure anyway. For multi-classing I'm a bit more picky, mostly requreing the charictor to show some kind of afinity toward it. I keep considering having players "work" ok skills in game, but I always shy away from it for fear of boging things down too much.
Loca`ne 08-31-04, 02:47 PM	well, I figure... you're a wielding two weapons but without two-weapon fighting... so incuring the penalties... somewhere down the line you gain a lvl and take two weapon fighting... whats to say that his use of two weapons self taught him that feat over the course of the session(s). Same with skills, using them tends to give you more profficiancy with them... save learning a new one especially Knowledge skills where I think having to have read a book atleast would be the only justification in that. Loca
Giarc 08-31-04, 05:47 PM	I never liked the idea that the characters needed to take down time to level up. It seemed to me to say that between level-ups, a character is on a plateau in regards to their abilities, skills, etc. and not always training and learning new things. I could understand it when they learned something drastically new (such as a fighter learning to cast spells for a level of wizard), but not for just levelling up in their class. Most of that is learned during their adventures and built-in down time.
Vintar 08-31-04, 09:04 PM	I agree. I've always thought of characters slowly getting better as they go. Thats why its called "expierience" instead of "training points". Maybe for something totally different from what they've been doing - but who is to say they haven't been staying up an hour later every night at the campfire - and only now are confident enough in their ability that they think it is worth really using. For example - this fighter here was working with a weight on the end of his longsword every night so he would get used to the extra weight when he started using a bastard sword. :fight!:
Bubba333 08-31-04, 09:26 PM	I just don't like PCs gaining random and spontaneous things without reason. For example, if a player had never even seen a two-bladed sword, let alone used one, I'd ask for justification when they wanted to take Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Two-Bladed Sword). I wouldn't make them wait long to get it, or require them to pay for training, but I would have them find one, say that they're practicing and then get the Feat. Some may think this is a crappy thing to do, but I can only suspend so much disbelief! ;)
Gurv 08-31-04, 09:47 PM	In the past, our play group has been a bunch of power gamers, and explaining how we gained our levels was never something that was done. In recent games, we have struggled to move away from that kind of game, and into a more roleplaying atmosphere. One rule that we began using was a training rule. When a character gained XP, it went into an 'untrained' pile. If s/he then found an appropriate trainer (DM descretion, but typically someone higher level in a class similar to what the player wished to gain), and paid an agreed on amount of gold to train, then XP from the 'untrained' pile could be transfered to the 'trained' pile. For every day spent training, 100 XP time the character's current level could be transfered. Alternatively, a character could transfer XP without training by paying a percentage of that XP: 10% for Simple classes, 15% for Moderate, and 20% for Complex classes. This allowed characters to level up in situations where they didn't want to find a trainer. The idea was that a character who didn't want to train could still level, but those who did would have more XP in the long run and ultimately be better. In future games I will likely set a flat-rate of exchange for those who do not train; the concept was that a sorcerer needed less training anyway and could get by without training easier than a wizard, but metagame its not fair. As far as whether the experiment was successful? Even though characters could advance without training by paying XP, several of the players who took that option due to circumstance felt the need to justify thier leveling anyway. After all the complaining they did initially, they couldn't justify doing leveling instantly anymore. When I said I was going to change it, many of them were concerned that I was getting rid of it altogether. Gurv
ZiD 09-01-04, 09:17 PM	In the past, our play group has been a bunch of power gamers, and explaining how we gained our levels was never something that was done. In recent games, we have struggled to move away from that kind of game, and into a more roleplaying atmosphere. One rule that we began using was a training rule. When a character gained XP, it went into an 'untrained' pile. If s/he then found an appropriate trainer (DM descretion, but typically someone higher level in a class similar to what the player wished to gain), and paid an agreed on amount of gold to train, then XP from the 'untrained' pile could be transfered to the 'trained' pile. For every day spent training, 100 XP time the character's current level could be transfered. Alternatively, a character could transfer XP without training by paying a percentage of that XP: 10% for Simple classes, 15% for Moderate, and 20% for Complex classes. This allowed characters to level up in situations where they didn't want to find a trainer. The idea was that a character who didn't want to train could still level, but those who did would have more XP in the long run and ultimately be better. In future games I will likely set a flat-rate of exchange for those who do not train; the concept was that a sorcerer needed less training anyway and could get by without training easier than a wizard, but metagame its not fair. As far as whether the experiment was successful? Even though characters could advance without training by paying XP, several of the players who took that option due to circumstance felt the need to justify thier leveling anyway. After all the complaining they did initially, they couldn't justify doing leveling instantly anymore. When I said I was going to change it, many of them were concerned that I was getting rid of it altogether. Gurv That is actually a really intelligent way of doing that. However, I have a twist towards that type of play... I've tried many ways of DMing. Sure, I only Dmed for 2 months before I got out of college last year, but this year I intend to DM most of the time from Eberron. I find the focus on mechanics as well as fantasy a nice breath of air; it allows me to feasibly add some high tech stuff into the game to get playes excited or freak them out when thier charecters experience something totally alien. Anyways, on to what I was saying. One way I played was when a charecter used a skill (such as pickpocket) successfully I would secretly add so many xp to the charecter himself. I like the idea of an untrained pile and such, however it doesnt really make sense. So a person goes through all the experiences, but then needs to refine these experiences? Experience to me isnt just in sword play or casting spells, its in the experiences of the moment. So I see how its ingenious to do it, but it also doesnt make too much sense. In this way I believe that the way D&D is set up is good on the xp front, though like most said it distances people from their charecters. They make uber powerful charecters with little, or no, role playing value. Thus my plan for leveling is kind of the same as training... kind of. When a person levels they should level like usual, gaining HP, spells per day, etc. as usual. However for skill points I believe you should make the person successfully use the skill once per skill point they wish to allocate, and for feats that a charecter learns they should train a little. So for example, a level 1 rogue levels and decides he wants to put 4 ranks in pickpocket (he originally had 1 lets say). I would tell him he must successfully pickpocket 4 individuals to get those points. If its an untrained skill, lets say he had 0 ranks, i would make him go train. However, the training would automatically allocate all the points he wished. So basically its you can train yourself for free and risk getting backlashed, or go RPing around to find a thief to train you. It allows for much more interesting games, as well as justifys how a person suddenly has 'X' amount of ranks in a skill. For feats you just need to find someone willing to train you for free or a price, depending on the skill. For example, to go from cleave to greater cleave I would just say that due to your experiences in life your stikes now are capable of rending your foes and you are enabled this ability, no training required because he was upgrading a previous feat. Upgrades are basically a given; your char is more experienced in the use of a skill. However, learning new skills that you would assume need to be learned (like two-weapon fighting) I would have a char go train for. Physical feats, like awareness, etc. I would consider untrained feats if selected. As for spells, I'd have the sorc/wiz need to either find a book, grimore, or something containing the spell. So in essence they are training. However I would allow a wizard to copy a higher level spell down for future use if he found it (and had the time). Sorcerers, unfortunately, I would not give that benefit to. Sure, it WOULD take a little more time and complicate things a bit, but it would also make players strive for things and make them want to do more than kill critters. I dont know how many times players almost fell asleep during RP periods due to the fact they had nothing to do while the rogue went around finding out information. This way, the fighters can go train and earn favor, make new friends, etc., clerics get a chance to do something in their temples, and such. Thats just me tho, I'm a newb DM and maybe my logic is flawed :P
ChrisTheS 09-02-04, 02:34 AM	One thing that I do is, if the characters roleplay through a situation that would logically involve their acquisition of new abilities, I give them those abilities as freebies. Obviously, this approach only works for those of us who like high-powered characters, of course. That said, there's another possible way of explaining the 'spontaneous' acquisitions of new skills and feats. Very rarely will a new ability be used immediately after levelling up--there's usually a grace period between that point and the time that the ability becomes useful. During that time, the PC is, in character, attempting to figure out how to do that particular thing during the course of normal activity, up until the first time s/he actually officially uses it--at which point, s/he is considered to have finally figured it out (obviously, some people are quicker learners than others with this system). Or it could be that they've been trying for years with no success, and then have a sudden epiphany and are able to do it properly from there on out (as was the case with me and learning to juggle).
ZiD 09-02-04, 11:08 AM	One thing that I do is, if the characters roleplay through a situation that would logically involve their acquisition of new abilities, I give them those abilities as freebies. Obviously, this approach only works for those of us who like high-powered characters, of course. That said, there's another possible way of explaining the 'spontaneous' acquisitions of new skills and feats. Very rarely will a new ability be used immediately after levelling up--there's usually a grace period between that point and the time that the ability becomes useful. During that time, the PC is, in character, attempting to figure out how to do that particular thing during the course of normal activity, up until the first time s/he actually officially uses it--at which point, s/he is considered to have finally figured it out (obviously, some people are quicker learners than others with this system). Or it could be that they've been trying for years with no success, and then have a sudden epiphany and are able to do it properly from there on out (as was the case with me and learning to juggle). lol thats kind of amusing... yet in some situations it kind of would make no sense 0.o
The Rooster 09-02-04, 11:08 AM	I usually just let my players level up when they get the XP. The group is very good about explaining their character's motivations and inclinations which lead to the choices they make. I don't see a need to complicate it further. Rooster
ZiD 09-02-04, 11:14 AM	Lucky punk :P I have lots of newb players that like to make cool charecters, kill critters, and role play very little. Makes it uninteresting half the time for the DM :( Tho I do throw in an occassional dragon so they need to role play their way out of there HAHAHAHAHAHA! *evil*
Loca`ne 09-02-04, 12:49 PM	I just don't like PCs gaining random and spontaneous things without reason. For example, if a player had never even seen a two-bladed sword, let alone used one, I'd ask for justification when they wanted to take Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Two-Bladed Sword). I wouldn't make them wait long to get it, or require them to pay for training, but I would have them find one, say that they're practicing and then get the Feat. Some may think this is a crappy thing to do, but I can only suspend so much disbelief! ;) 1) Roll Play. If I was a figher wanting to use an exotic weapon, I'd make it a point to find one by 'accident' or let my DM know ahead of time that this is the direction I wanted my char to go. You get the idea. So in essence I've already 'justified' the use of the weapon once I truely find one. Every time you're in a new town go into the local weapons shops, look at all the weapons that the guards are carrying, all the weapons random other adventurers might be using. DM's side, roll some percentages to see if there is a 'said weapon' within sight of the PC. Be creative is my motto and I use it often.... lol my DM would know this all too well. :P 2) Common Sence. Two sided weapos aren't that uncommon they just required speciallized training yes, so I can understand the need to have him 'train' in it be it by practice alone or by training, I'd never make them wait a long time though, it's almost crewl. What player wants to wait to use the weapon thier vying for? Better to just make them take negatives to hit until you feel it proper for them to 'get' the feat. 3) When in doubt, skim over :p. There are going to be times when you just can't, what's the line you said? "I can only suspend so much disbelief!", suspend your disbelief as a DM but lets get serious. How close do you want to stick to those rules? For me, only as close as is neccisary. :P Loca
Jacinth Greyfox 09-02-04, 03:38 PM	Hi All With regard to eRazors comments. i disagree i would never let a player "level-up" mid adventure they would have to withdraw to a safe environment to rest and recuperate before they level up. However erazor is right that levelling up does seem to happen much more frequently in 3.5 and my practice for levelling up is a hangover from long years of playing second edition, so maybe my players and i should have a re-think.
Lina_Inverse 09-02-04, 05:53 PM	i see one big problem with requireing training in ebberon.after level 6,where the hell are you getting trainers. it also brings up the logic problem of how did people get to lvl2 in the first place,and do you need to go to school every time you become more skilled at something?
Bubba333 09-02-04, 05:56 PM	I'll let them level-up in combat if it's feasible. Heck, you can do that in Knights of the Old Republic, right? ;) It's obviously not always going to work, but you can at the very least boosts saves and their BAB to give them an edge ("So that's how you get past a shield!").
hiryuu 09-03-04, 12:36 AM	I'll let them level-up in combat if it's feasible. Heck, you can do that in Knights of the Old Republic, right? ;) It's obviously not always going to work, but you can at the very least boosts saves and their BAB to give them an edge ("So that's how you get past a shield!"). Villain: "Hahaha, now, my enemy, prepare to face my Thousand Whirling Blades!" *whirlwind attack, PC dodges* Villain: "What? it failed?" PC: "You fool! I was only using ten percent of my true power! Now, feel the wrath of six circle magic kiai! Kyaaaa Freezing Eruption Cone Blast!" *cone of cold*
Brastan 09-03-04, 01:34 AM	DMing Exp has pointed me toward the 1 week need to level for Eberron rule. I (as the DM) provide an adventure pace that allows for this style. If the adventure needs to be done real quick I make sure it is run just after the PCs level. Thus guaranteeing that they won't need to do so mid-adventure. For extended adventure stories I have (and will) make them longer running. This means the PCs have to Travel some distance to the next portion. (Like in Shadows of the Last War). I count such travel time toward the 1 week need to level rule. This makes for quick in-game levels while still advancing the plot. As for explaining why they get the skills they do, I generally don't ask unless I think something fishy is going on. I know were the Players want their PCs to go and I try to keep track of how well their doing to that end. (I need to start checking up on the swashbuckler more often, I don't think the Player understands role-playing to well.)
Bubba333 09-03-04, 01:37 AM	Villain: "Hahaha, now, my enemy, prepare to face my Thousand Whirling Blades!" *whirlwind attack, PC dodges* Villain: "What? it failed?" PC: "You fool! I was only using ten percent of my true power! Now, feel the wrath of six circle magic kiai! Kyaaaa Freezing Eruption Cone Blast!" *cone of cold* Exactly!
Joseph Amarillo 09-03-04, 02:13 AM	Okay, first of all, I didn't read all of the replies to this thread. This reply is for the original message... In my games, noone gains levels during a game. You can only level up before or after a game, but not during a game. It would be really unrealistic if suddenly, in the middle of combat, you gain access to a higher level of magic. Also, there's a lot of downtime in my games. For example, if you're investigating something, it can take maybe 1 round (roll for Search), or maybe an entire week (several Search, Gather Information, and Knowledge rolls). Finding the killer's escape route can take a minute or less. Finding the hideout of the syndicate behind the killer can take a week.
Doctor X 09-03-04, 02:31 AM	I generally don't worry about "realism" too much. I think the whole experience/level up system should be taken with a grain of salt, especially in a setting like Eberron, where the characters are basically action heroes who defy convention. Realism shouldn't necessarily have too much to do with the situation. I usually give my players the level-up whenever they attain the XP for it. Only occasionally will I consider something off-limits (certain feats, ranks in Knowledge), but my approach is different. I let them take the skill ranks or feats, but I don't allow them to take effect until they've been justified. For example... If a character wanted to take one of the Druid Sect feats, but hasn't contacted the sect concerning his initiation, I'd let him write it down on his sheet, but he wouldn't get any benefits from it until he's at least spoken with a representative and thus has been taught the sect's secrets. Other than that, I leave the role-playing aspect of it up to the players. Generally, they act their "training" out even if I don't require them to. They like playing their characters... When something major is about to happen, I normally have them play out a particular piece of "down time" right before it-- usually inn stays, camping, or travelling. They normally are spending their time doing something interesting, having mostly to do with advancement in their class... But I usually find it a lot more entertaining when they're doing something completely different. For example... we had a Fighter who was quite often sleeping, even when it was his turn to watch... Once he even sat out of a battle that ensued during the night, refusing to get up even when swords were clashing just a few paces from him. I felt this added so much to the personality of his character, and thus to the personality of the campaign, that I rewarded him the experience he would have gotten if he had joined in, even though he didn't. I haven't started my Eberron campaign yet, but this is the sort of behavior I plan to encourage when I do... Though sleeping through a battle is kind of a dumb move and probably shouldn't be worthy of experience, it really is an action-hero kind of thing to do, and thus it reinforces the tone of the setting. I think this is the kind of thing people should be worried about when it comes to roleplaying, instead of tedium such as "My character swings his sword around all day so he gets better at fighting."
Slymonk 09-03-04, 04:27 AM	I let my party level up mid adventure if they make the xp required at the end of a session. There is plenty of downtime skipped over by the game that would allow for development of class abilities and skills. Levelling up merely represents that sudden point where it all falls together and you "get it". Well in my game, you can't take ranks in Ride (for example), if someone didn't learn you to do it, or you tried to learn it your self. This is the sort of thing that irks me as a player. Ride is a prime example of a skill that should be easy to develop. Spend a couple of days travelling on a horse and you should be proficient enough to have at least 1 point in the skill if you so choose. The same applies for any Untrained skill. If you can make an attempt untrained then it's no big step to gain ranks.
Bubba333 09-03-04, 05:07 AM	You know, why can't you use certain skills untrained? I mean, why can't you even try to make a Handle Animal check without ranks in it? Or what about Disable Device? You should be able to make an attempt at the very least. Heck, you don't need any ranks in Craft to try to make make armor or a house! That's never made any sense at all to me. At the very least Craft skills should require training.