Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Alyss 07-18-07, 10:34 AM	Currently I DM core D&D, but am considering taking up Eberron. How is it different, and is it more interesting?
bykov1 07-18-07, 10:42 AM	Mechanically it is the same. The flavor is Industrial Revolution (with Magic as the technology)/Western/Film Noire all rolled into one. Some of the racial stereotypes have been put on their ear. Tha only *new* mechanic is Action Points, which are covered in the ECS. There are also a handful of new "core" races specific to the setting (Changeling, Shifter, Kalashtar). It is definitely worth a look if you are feeling bored with core. Bykov.
Nuclear_Buddha 07-18-07, 10:47 AM	It doesn't differ much with regards to rules; the only change there is action points. Additionally, alignments are not set in stone: traditionally good or evil monsters may be the opposite, and clerics need not maintain the alignment of their religion to continue receiving their powers (paladins, however, must remain LG). While the setting encourages certain tones and styles of play, primarily through the use of NPC classes to keep the NPCs in a distinctly lesser role than the PCs, and the lack of truly altruistic organizations in the world, that sort of thing is ultimately up to the DM.
Rekko 07-18-07, 11:16 AM	Don't forget the Warforged, its rich mysterious History, Goblinoids aren't meatbags, same for kobolds and orcs. Dragonmarks, Dragonshards, Psionics, Daelkyr, new monsters, new planar system, Artificers, homonculi. High magic item circulation. Corrupted economic and political powers, intrigue, spying, scavenger hunt and exploration adventure types. Many cool organization and new religions. bla bla bla Live the Eberron way! ;) Rekko
JulesCARV 07-18-07, 11:34 AM	Clerics in Eberron can cast all spells, regardless of alignment descriptor, and can have any alignment, regardless of the religion they follow. Note that alignment restrictions still apply exactly as in core D&D to barbarians, bards, druids, monks, and paladins. In addition, Eberron basically includes psionics by default. You can play Eberron without psionics, but that requires deviating from the psionics-inclusive default, so the Expanded Psionics Handbook comes in handy, or, barring that, OGL psionics.
Amaril 07-18-07, 11:58 AM	Some of the more significant differences include: Different demographics: PC classes are fewer and most NPCs are of lower levels than core. Having said that, it's assumed that as the campaign continues, those NPCs also increase in levels rather than act as stagnant, undeveloped characters. Pulp action/adventure and noir stories/plots are encouraged: Keith's description of Eberron is Lord of the Rings meets Indiana Jones and The Maltese Falcon. That doesn't mean they are both used at the same time. Rather, it is the spectrum in which Eberron exists. If you want high-action adventures with airship battles and heroes taking daring risks while combating fanatical militant groups, Eberron supports that flavor strongly. If you want murder mystery and manipulative drama, the setting is filled with it. Modern analogies: Eberron has a lot of modern comparisons. This allows for players and GMs to more easily adapt to the feel of the setting. If you've ever been to or watched a movie that takes place in New York or Chicago, it's easy to imagine what Sharn is like. Conveniences: Traveling around the world and visiting all of the wonderful places in the setting is much more feasible than in most other settings. Typically, players are confined to a specific region of a campaign world or have to spend vast amounts of in-game time traveling from one location to another. Eberron's mass transportation and red-line method of resolving travel helps players and DM's explore far away locations within a single adventure and in a timely manner. High mortality rate: Despite the use of action points, if players aren't careful, their characters can die easily. Add to that the fact that raise dead and resurrection are practically unattainable because of the demographics. There aren't a lot of high-level clerics who can cast those spells. In fact, most "clerics" are actually experts, and occasionally a temple will have an adept (NPC class). If you're curious about action points, the OGL content can be found on d20SRD.org (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/actionPoints.htm). Keep in mind that Eberron's version is a revised version that doesn't include those alternate uses, but does include feats and PrCs that support Action Points with variant uses.
Amaril 07-18-07, 12:01 PM	One more thing. Eberron's largest religion, the Soverign Host, is one of pantheonic worship. Clergy and temples might pay more respect to a specific deity, but they don't compete with one another as they accept and worship the pantheon as a whole. Worshippers and clerics pray to each of the deities depending on the need. Clerics also can choose domains from across several deities within the Soverign Host. Edit: OK I lied, here's something else. Check out the archives for Gearing Up for Eberron (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/archeb/gu), Dragonshards (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/archeb/ds), and Eberron Under the Glass (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/archeb/ug). All of those have information on how Eberron is different from the core assumptions.
Amaril 07-18-07, 12:02 PM	In addition, Eberron basically includes psionics by default. You can play Eberron without psionics, but that requires deviating from the psionics-inclusive default, so the Expanded Psionics Handbook comes in handy, or, barring that, OGL psionics. Technically, you could just not involve those aspects of Eberron at all.
Edymnion 07-18-07, 12:16 PM	Technically, you could just not involve those aspects of Eberron at all.Yes, such is the nature of a shadow war. Long as you don't mention the Dreaming Dark and the Kalashtar, you can easily remove all traces of Psionics without affecting the setting at all.
Amaril 07-18-07, 12:28 PM	Another thing to keep in mind is that most of the adventure campaign takes place on Khorvaire, which is primarily a human culture (think European analogy) that has moved in on goblinoid and monstrous humanoid lands (think Native American analogy). Additionally, the five human nations of Galifar on Khorvaire just ended a 100 year war called The Last War (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20040629a) two years prior to the start of the campaign. Everyone was affected by this war in some way, but not everyone necessarily fought in this war. A counterpart to the national powers of Khorvaire is the socio-political business power of the Dragonmarked Houses. These nobles posses magical as well as business power that has given them a strong hand in moving and shaking things overtly and subtly. Needless to say, these nationally neutral houses made a lot of money off of the Last War with their goods and services. Warforged, healing, weaponry, armed forces, communications, espionage, warding, security, tracking and transportation were all profitable products and services for the Dragonmarked Houses.
Amaril 07-18-07, 12:30 PM	Yes, such is the nature of a shadow war. Long as you don't mention the Dreaming Dark and the Kalashtar, you can easily remove all traces of Psionics without affecting the setting at all.On the other hand, if you want a psionic campaign, you could pick up Secrets of Sarlona and have a completely different setting practically. All of the stuff found in Khorvaire and the other continents can be completely removed when running a campaign in Sarlona in the same way that psionics can be removed from a campaign in Khorvaire.
Edymnion 07-18-07, 12:40 PM	On the other hand, if you want a psionic campaign, you could pick up Secrets of Sarlona and have a completely different setting practically. All of the stuff found in Khorvaire and the other continents can be completely removed when running a campaign in Sarlona in the same way that psionics can be removed from a campaign in Khorvaire.Yes, but remember the setting is supposed to be played in Khovaire, not Sarlona. Thats why the ECS is set there.
Amaril 07-18-07, 12:45 PM	Yes, but remember the setting is supposed to be played in Khovaire, not Sarlona. Thats why the ECS is set there. I strongly disagree. The ECS is a starting point. The supplements came later and provide new options. While the ECS presents a base campaign concept in Khorvaire, I would strongly argue against any notion that Eberron is supposed to be played there. Secrets of Sarlona was basically a setting sourcebook for an adventure or campaign set in Sarlona. It even includes a new PC race. One could easily create an entire campaign in Sarlona without having any dealings with Khorvaire at all and there would be nothing wrong about that.
JulesCARV 07-18-07, 01:48 PM	Okay, my general point is, in core D&D, there are certain assumptions. For instance, rangers are assumed to exist, as are halflings. Now, if you want, you could take rangers and halflings out of your campaign setting and, if the setting is otherwise rich and intriguing, they won't be missed. Nonetheless, rangers are assumed to exist as a class in default D&D, and halflings are assumed to exist as a race. On the other hand, warmages and favored souls are not assumed to exist in core D&D. They're something you can add in if you'd like, but not something that's in D&D by default. In Eberron, psions are more like rangers than like favored souls in this respect. Playing a game with psions is the default; you can take psions out, and still run a wonderful game, just as you can take rangers out, but "psionics exists" (and "rangers exist") is the default. In most other settings, by contrast, psionics is more like favored souls or the like -- you can include them, and many people do, but they're not assumed.
Amaril 07-18-07, 01:59 PM	Okay, my general point is, in core D&D, there are certain assumptions. For instance, rangers are assumed to exist, as are halflings. Now, if you want, you could take rangers and halflings out of your campaign setting and, if the setting is otherwise rich and intriguing, they won't be missed. Nonetheless, rangers are assumed to exist as a class in default D&D, and halflings are assumed to exist as a race.See, I have to disagree with you here as well. The core setting is no more assumptuous about those items than Eberron is. In fact, I'd argue that the core setting is more forgiving about removing those things. On the other hand, warmages and favored souls are not assumed to exist in core D&D. They're something you can add in if you'd like, but not something that's in D&D by default. Same is said for Eberron. In Eberron, psions are more like rangers than like favored souls in this respect. Playing a game with psions is the default; you can take psions out, and still run a wonderful game, just as you can take rangers out, but "psionics exists" (and "rangers exist") is the default. In most other settings, by contrast, psionics is more like favored souls or the like -- you can include them, and many people do, but they're not assumed. This I can agree with, except that psionics exists only in the shadows as Edy and I mentioned above. It doesn't parade around in bright shiny colors saying, "I'm psionic, and I'm right here!" witha big flashing neon sign.
ArcTan 07-18-07, 02:35 PM	Mechanically it is the same. The flavor is Industrial Revolution (with Magic as the technology)/Western/Film Noire all rolled into one. Some of the racial stereotypes have been put on their ear. Tha only *new* mechanic is Action Points, which are covered in the ECS. There are also a handful of new "core" races specific to the setting (Changeling, Shifter, Kalashtar). It is definitely worth a look if you are feeling bored with core. Bykov. Mechanically, the big rules differences have to do with Action Points, divine domains (which are not the same as in core), and alignment. Many monsters are no longer bound by alignment in the same way as in core (though it's inaccurate to say that because of this monsters are not bound by alignment at all -- they are) and, most importantly, Clerics and other divine casters are no longer restricted by alignment. Technically including lots of new feats is not really a change in core mechanics, but many of the new feats -- and the new class, the Artificer -- change the inherent balance of the game enough that it's worth looking at what they do. (One major factor -- Monks can now take feats that let them use Monk abilities with a wide variety of ordinary melee weapons, like swords, making Monks a great deal more versatile and useful. Another -- Artificers get various abilities that let you use metamagic in conjunction with magic items. A third -- the wide presence of Warforged makes repair and inflict damage spells very important.)
ArcTan 07-18-07, 02:36 PM	This I can agree with, except that psionics exists only in the shadows as Edy and I mentioned above. It doesn't parade around in bright shiny colors saying, "I'm psionic, and I'm right here!" witha big flashing neon sign. Unless you're playing a Sarlona campaign, which, as people have pointed out, is just as legitimate a campaign setting as Khorvaire or Xen'drik. (Much of the material in Secrets of Sarlona is superfluous otherwise.)
ArcTan 07-18-07, 02:38 PM	It doesn't differ much with regards to rules; the only change there is action points. Additionally, alignments are not set in stone: traditionally good or evil monsters may be the opposite, and clerics need not maintain the alignment of their religion to continue receiving their powers (paladins, however, must remain LG). Technically the only monsters we know this to apply to are Werewolves (Lycanthropic strains can't be classified by their animal form) and Dragons (Draconic bloodlines can't be classified by their color). Eberron makes no exceptions for other things -- Fiends like Rakshasas are very much Always Evil, as are all the intelligent Undead we've seen. In some cases Eberron *sharpens* alignment-based conflicts -- Shavarath is a war between Outsiders based solely on alignment, and the history of Aerenal is all about the opposition between Good Deathless and Evil Undead. And *all* alignment restrictions for PC classes are still in place by default *except* for Clerics.
Amaril 07-18-07, 02:45 PM	Unless you're playing a Sarlona campaign, which, as people have pointed out, is just as legitimate a campaign setting as Khorvaire or Xen'drik. (Much of the material in Secrets of Sarlona is superfluous otherwise.)I was one of those who pointed that out. :) My point was that you can play either of the extremes. You can run a completely psionic setting outside of Khorvaire altogether, or you could run a campaign in Khorvaire and ignore psionics altogether. Of course the default for Eberron is somewhere in between. Technically the only monsters we know this to apply to are Werewolves (Lycanthropic strains can't be classified by their animal form) and Dragons (Draconic bloodlines can't be classified by their color). Eberron makes no exceptions for other things -- Fiends like Rakshasas are very much Always Evil, as are all the intelligent Undead we've seen. In some cases Eberron *sharpens* alignment-based conflicts -- Shavarath is a war between Outsiders based solely on alignment, and the history of Aerenal is all about the opposition between Good Deathless and Evil Undead. You forgot about monstrous humanoids and goblinoids who are mostly evil according to the core rules.
ArcTan 07-18-07, 02:47 PM	You forgot about monstrous humanoids and goblinoids who are mostly evil according to the core rules. Meh. I always ignore Usually Evil anyway, since it's clearly a statement about culture and not inherent essence.
Alex_ 07-18-07, 03:20 PM	Actually, in Eberron, most all the Human and Demi-Human races tend towards Neutral by default. Examples of trends of Evil individuals are almost always chalked up to a specific society or organization with a ruthless "survival of the fittest" outlook. Edit: Errr.. I think I just repeated what Arctan said.
mhacdebhandia 07-18-07, 06:13 PM	Yes, but remember the setting is supposed to be played in Khovaire, not Sarlona. Thats why the ECS is set there. Your personal bugbear about the way Khorvaire has been "ignored" aside, that's not the case. You're "supposed" to use the whole world as you see fit - adventurers from Khorvaire can travel to Xen'drik and Sarlona and even Argonessen while maintaining a city in Khorvaire as their home, sure, but this isn't the Forgotten Realms, where virtually everything that's been written for the Forgotten Realms line proper has concerned the single subcontinent of Faerun. The Eberron Campaign Setting covers the whole planet, after all. Khorvaire is clearly the focus, but it's also pretty clear that, for instance, Stormreach in Xen'drik was always intended as an alternate base of operations from which adventurers could spend their whole careers exploring that continent without setting foot on Khorvaire. After all, the Explorer's Handbook was the third supplement to the core setting, and the next "locale" supplement (unless you count the entries on various nations in the Player's Guide to Eberron) was Secrets of Xen'drik. Now, I agree with you that we should see some more supplements looking at the other regions of Khorvaire, and that it's a shame there's been so much of an emphasis on other regions - which doesn't look to end until sometime after City of Stormreach in March at the earliest. I would have liked to have seen a supplement covering more of Khorvaire before we saw a book on Stormreach myself. I just think it's fallacious to suggest that you're "not supposed" to run a game that isn't focused on adventuring in Khorvaire. There's no supposition that you will, and none that you won't.
Edymnion 07-18-07, 07:52 PM	Your personal bugbear about the way Khorvaire has been "ignored" aside, that's not the case.My point was that all psionic material can be removed from Eberron, Sarlona ignored, and everything else never touched on, and the main setting of Eberron will not be adversly affected. Nothing within the five nations changes, the eldeen reaches don't fall apart, everything keeps running just the way it was. You can't do the opposite though. If you take out Khovaire, IMO, then you have a MUCH bigger problem, and require a lot of rewriting to try and make the remaining bits self sufficient.
Amaril 07-18-07, 08:10 PM	My point was that all psionic material can be removed from Eberron, Sarlona ignored, and everything else never touched on, and the main setting of Eberron will not be adversly affected. Nothing within the five nations changes, the eldeen reaches don't fall apart, everything keeps running just the way it was. You can't do the opposite though. If you take out Khovaire, IMO, then you have a MUCH bigger problem, and require a lot of rewriting to try and make the remaining bits self sufficient.Taking out Khorvaire is no more of a problem than taking out Sarlona and psionics. However, Sarlona is as much Eberron as Khorvaire, and not including Khorvaire doesn't mean the game isn't an Eberron game. If the intent is to not include that aspect of Eberron, than it's not a problem to not include that content because it's irrelevant. If you're referring to the mechanical content such as dragonmarks, warforged, and artificers, it's only a problem to those who insist on playing that version of Eberron, and those individuals are in the wrong Eberron campaign, but it's still an Eberron campaign.
Demangel 07-18-07, 08:59 PM	I agree 100% that psionics aren't meant to be something any DM feels is "required" for the campaign setting to function. I also disagree with the analogy about rangers in regards to core rules, and Psions in regards to Eberron. It clearly states in the ECS that the Kalashtar and all that goes with them is intended to be totally optional for the setting. This I feel is why Psionic stuff in Eberron is toned down a lot in the ECS and most other source books. IF Psionics were meant to be a bread and butter element of the mechanics of Eberron we would see a lot more reference to them both in source fluff, and in adventure materials. Instead of putting in hooks that REQUIRE these things to be in the setting, they put in resources that ALLOW A PLACE FOR THEM TO FIT into the setting. It's a subtle but powerful difference. I have done a lot of thought on what makes Eberron tick as a setting. This is because I'm still flirting with the idea of making a Neverwinter Nights module based on the setting (work has more or less already begun by the way). Why does that matter? Because NWN was never meant to run Eberron... It's meant for FG primarily, and barring that, Core D&D (high fantasy). So I have had to decide how to handle those elements of Eberron that NWN doesn't do well, versus what it can do well. 1: Artificers - Relegated to NPC's only, I lack the skill and time to create a class in NWN and have it work with everything else as intended. Making new classes simply isn't easy. However having an NPC pass for an Artificer over the course of a story, isn't in itself hard. 2: Warforged - While I had worked out a system that allowed them to be playable, I wasn't 100% satisfied with the results... It required too many rules fudges for a PC to use this race. However Warforged will be a part of the party, and will be prominant in the adventure. 3: Shifters - Exactly the same as Warforged for the same reasons, they are in, but arn't playable as PC's, but can be party comrades. 4: Psionics and Kalishtar - totally removed for sanities sake... Never looked back, NWN simply cannot at this time handle psionics beyond the basic elements it uses for Monster abilities... A whole new spell list etc just isn't feasible for a one man project, let alone a team at this time. 5: Action points - Nothing against em, but they are impractical to create for NWN and cause more problems than they solve. TBH, my PnP players don't make regular use of them anyway as it is, and they have yet to have any problems. So Action points can be removed. 6: Dragon marks: I plan to of course keep them, but they won't be something the PC can use, or gain etc. Like artificers, but more like Warforged and Shifters, they are relegated to story element, not game mechanic, and work just fine in that capacity thanks. 7: Changelings: The one race in all of Eberron that I could conceivably make without fudging a whole lot, but also a race that for a CRPG like NWN, simply has the least use... I consider this race the role players race, and even with the most complex RP scripting, or even MP, NWN wouldn't do them justice as a playable race, even though their powers would be one of the easiest of all the races to give to a PC. So instead, they will be NPC's and story elements. So whats left? I mean seriously I took out 99% of the mechanics that most people think about when they think of Eberron... Does that make it less eberron? Assuming those things are still IN the world, but not PLAYABLE as a PC I don't think the setting suffers much if at all. The more I sniffed around these issues, the more I had to ask myself what made Eberron appealing, and while for some IT IS those very things I'm removing or watering down, but for me, and many others, it's the setting, the atmosphere, and the kinds of stories and adventures Eberron allows that just aren't possible in any other official setting. All in All I think What makes Eberron tick is the total ambiance of the setting, it's history, it's personalities, it's factions and it's flavor. Afteral, isn't that all a Campaign setting is meant to be? Why go to all the trouble of putting in all these great histories, these great locations (SHARN!), these great hooks, and flavors, if the real purpose of a campaign setting is to make an excuse to have another bunch of spells, items, feats, classes, races... Why not just make a book full of all these nifty new stats for your PC and save the money on including all the RP fluff, all the artwork? Simple... The Fluff is what most people really want, even when they refuse to admit it. IT's the FLUFF that makes the setting, not the mechanics. The mechanics are meant to ADD to the fluff... They are meant to support or encourage the flavor, not BE the flavor. Action Points are a clear example of this concept. They are meant to create a certain feel to your adventure, allowing your character to do things that makes them that much more special in the world. But take out action points, and that doesn't change... The DM can still craft adventures that make the PC's feel this way, rule situations a certain way behind the screen to make the PC's FEEL like they are getting some serious heroes luck when needed... all action points do, is put a little control over when that luck happens, into the hands of the player... Because as a DM, if I want or need your character or party to fail, all the action points in the world arn't going to stop me from stopping you. It is after all about the adventure. If D&D was meant to just be a table top strategy game, IE Pure rules and combat mechanics, it would be (See Miniatures, which I consider a disservice to D&D everywhere the way WOTC handled what was once a staple element of enhancing PnP, and turned it into "magic the chess game", IE almost totally unsuitable for PnP use due to the way miniatures are released and sold). So think about it long and hard... what makes Eberron Eberron, for some it IS the rules, but I think for most, the mechanics just enhance the flavor, they don't make the flavor. For a skilled enough DM/playing group, mechanics are little more than convenience... Not a requirement. Would a cheeseburger be less of a cheeseburger if instead of pickles you add onions? Would it be less of a cheeseburger if instead of being on seasame seed buns it was on seedless? Of course not. Same with Eberron, just be careful not to meddle too much, or sooner or later you WILL take so many things away that it DOES fall apart... The best place to be is somewhere in the middle IMHO.
mhacdebhandia 07-19-07, 04:01 AM	My point was that all psionic material can be removed from Eberron, Sarlona ignored, and everything else never touched on, and the main setting of Eberron will not be adversly affected. Aww, the Cults of the Dragon Below will be slightly less awesome. Psionic aberrations > spell-like ability-using aberrations.
Missekat 07-19-07, 04:53 AM	Back to the question this thread asked in thefirst place: Theres one difference that hasn't been mentioned: The gods. No one is sure they exist, and they certainly dont walk around in avatars or make themselves known to anyone. Faith is exactly that. Faith in Eberron works a bit like in the Discworld series, (if you read that). If you believe strongly enough in something, then it can grant you powers. Be it Dol Arran, or a small yellow frog youfound this morning. And so, it remains a mystery wether the gods exist.. just like in the real world. Isn't that neat?
Alyss 07-19-07, 06:43 AM	Wow, suprised to see this thread got so active. Unfortunately, I've decided to take up Forgotten Realms instead. I had a look at both campaign settings, and the Forgotten Realms seemed a little bit more like what I wanted. It was damn close though... Thanks for all your posts, it's very touching that everyone is so welcome.
ArcTan 07-19-07, 08:09 PM	[QUOTE=Missekat;13121815 Faith in Eberron works a bit like in the Discworld series, (if you read that). If you believe strongly enough in something, then it can grant you powers. Be it Dol Arran, or a small yellow frog youfound this morning.[/quote] Actually, the Discworld series works a lot more like core D&D and Forgotten Realms, where the gods objectively do exist and are themselves created and maintained by the power of mortal "belief" (so that deities fight with each other over worshippers and the more worshippers they get the more powerful they are). No such thing actually exists in Eberron. In Eberron it's just known that certain people who believe in something very hard get magic powers, but that a lot more of them happen to believe in something that's represented as a certain god, and some people argue that this means the gods really exist somewhere. But in Eberron the actual mechanism by which belief leads to power is unknown. Certainly it's not *universal* -- there are tons of Clerics of Dol Arrah and very few Clerics of My Left Shoe, if any at all. There are rules governing it, but no one knows what they are. (In sharp contrast to Forgotten Realms, where Ao laid down the rules in the Tablets of Fate and all the gods are quite aware of them and actively manipulate the rules to play their little game with each other.)
Nuclear_Buddha 07-20-07, 12:32 PM	Eberron makes no exceptions for other things -- Fiends like Rakshasas are very much Always Evil, as are all the intelligent Undead we've seen. In some cases Eberron *sharpens* alignment-based conflicts -- Shavarath is a war between Outsiders based solely on alignment, A certain more-published and bovine individual than I has frequently stated that angels can fall and devils can rise. And eladrin can become depressed playwrights. The setting expressly gives permission to do what DMs have been doing forever. and the history of Aerenal is all about the opposition between Good Deathless and Evil Undead. Also, the history of Aerenal is about the conflict between positive and negative energy solutions for the same problem (mortality), not expressly about good vs evil. While the last heir might not be in good shape these days, I recall nothing about the legendary cruelty and depravity of the Vol family. Seems to me that the one instance we do have knowledge of their actions, they were actually trying to make peace between the dragons and elves. Doesn't seem that evil to me.
ArcTan 07-20-07, 08:36 PM	A certain more-published and bovine individual than I has frequently stated that angels can fall and devils can rise. And eladrin can become depressed playwrights. The setting expressly gives permission to do what DMs have been doing forever. So does Core D&D, which, if you'll remember, includes a certain Succubus Paladin character bandied around on the website. It's always been the case that Always alignments don't mean Always *Always* alignments. (By the way, the depressed playwright is still Chaotic Good. She's just depressed about it.) Also, the history of Aerenal is about the conflict between positive and negative energy solutions for the same problem (mortality), not expressly about good vs evil. While the last heir might not be in good shape these days, I recall nothing about the legendary cruelty and depravity of the Vol family. Seems to me that the one instance we do have knowledge of their actions, they were actually trying to make peace between the dragons and elves. Doesn't seem that evil to me. Enh. I would still say that the PE vs. NE solutions are flavored to be Good and Evil, or at least Good-leaning vs. Evil-leaning. Aerenal isn't exactly a land of pure virtue, but they look pretty good compared to the Blood of Vol (which, like it or not, is a fundamentally Lawful Evil religion).
Nuclear_Buddha 07-22-07, 06:17 PM	It is, of course, true that "always" has never meant always. It's just that a lot of people out there find it easier to take things literally. Re: Succubus paladin. I rather suspect that her popularity is a complex subject that has little to do with the topic at hand and more to do with the audience. I just wanted to note that the situation was something a bit more complicated than G vs. E with regards to Vol Family/Priests of Transition in Aerenal. Oversimplification is boring.
Rechan 07-22-07, 11:57 PM	Enh. I would still say that the PE vs. NE solutions are flavored to be Good and Evil, or at least Good-leaning vs. Evil-leaning. Aerenal isn't exactly a land of pure virtue, but they look pretty good compared to the Blood of Vol (which, like it or not, is a fundamentally Lawful Evil religion). Maybe the BoV is evil at its core, but the Seekers, or the Laymen religion, isn't. And the laymen are so far removed from Vol herself and her minions that they are almost two different things.
JulesCARV 07-23-07, 12:26 AM	Maybe the BoV is evil at its core, but the Seekers, or the Laymen religion, isn't. And the laymen are so far removed from Vol herself and her minions that they are almost two different things. If that were so, then it seems to me that the Blood of Vol would be a non-evil religion with an evil lich who (unbeknownst to most people) happens to have a high position in it, much like Cardinal Krozen is an evil guy who happens to have a high position in the Church of the Silver Flame while the Silver Flame is a good religion. (Of course, maybe Rechan is just saying that lots of ordinary folks who follow the Blood of Vol are evil, but they're casually evil, not "evil to the core" like Erandis et al.)
Rechan 07-23-07, 12:55 AM	If that were so, then it seems to me that the Blood of Vol would be a non-evil religion with an evil lich who (unbeknownst to most people) happens to have a high position in it, much like Cardinal Krozen is an evil guy who happens to have a high position in the Church of the Silver Flame while the Silver Flame is a good religion. (Of course, maybe Rechan is just saying that lots of ordinary folks who follow the Blood of Vol are evil, but they're casually evil, not "evil to the core" like Erandis et al.) No, I was saying something to the effect of what you just said. I havn't seen anything in the Blood of Vol Religion to say that the Blood of Vol Religion is evil. The Blood of Vol Secret Organization, however, Is evil. In other words, if your religion is founded on and secretly lead by a lich, and no one knows it, are you evil?
ArcTan 07-23-07, 01:05 AM	Maybe the BoV is evil at its core, but the Seekers, or the Laymen religion, isn't. And the laymen are so far removed from Vol herself and her minions that they are almost two different things. Faiths of Eberron confirms that the BoV is Lawful Evil. Clerics of the BoV, whatever their personal alignment, are followers of a Lawful Evil religion and radiate a Lawful Evil aura. The Seekers are described in such a way that they *sound sympathetic*, but that doesn't make their religion seem any less evil to me (it's all about subverting the natural order, claiming eternal life and venerating the impenetrable, ineffable Ego and the Nietzschean will-to-power -- the Divinity Within and crap). I think we've been too inured by D&D stereotypes, so that if a religion isn't obviously about killing babies and setting things on fire and bringing about the apocalyptic collapse of civilization, it's no longer "evil" in people's eyes.
ArcTan 07-23-07, 01:06 AM	No, I was saying something to the effect of what you just said. I havn't seen anything in the Blood of Vol Religion to say that the Blood of Vol Religion is evil. The Blood of Vol Secret Organization, however, Is evil. In other words, if your religion is founded on and secretly lead by a lich, and no one knows it, are you evil? Yes, if the religion is nonetheless a thinly-disguised version of the ideals and principles of lichdom.
JulesCARV 07-23-07, 01:13 AM	The Blood of Vol is LE. The Silver Flame is LG. Cardinal Krozen is LE, but that has no bearing on the alignment of the Silver Flame as a religion. If a high-ranking official in a religion doesn't dictate or even influence the religion's alignment, then Erandis d'Vol seems unlikely to be the reason that the Blood of Vol is LE. My conclusion is that the doctrines, attitudes, and values of the Blood of Vol are evil at a level preached to and practiced by ordinary, common Seekers. (My view of the specific reasons why they're evil are somewhat different than how most people view it, but that's something of a tangent.)
Rechan 07-23-07, 01:24 AM	Nevermind - I concede, the Blood of Vol are evil. After contending in far too many "Can assassins be good" and similar threads, I do not wish to go down this road. My thoughts on alignment are very different from your average D&Der, and I should not engage in debates which adhere to those rules, out of politeness to those involved.
Need_A_Life 07-23-07, 06:44 AM	In my opinion they should've dropped "religion alignments" in Eberron. Silver Flame isn't automatically LG and Blood of Vol is not automatically LE. They should've described the religions, its doctrines and repeated what the Eberron Campaign Setting says, that even clerics are not bound by their religions alignment. Alignment domains [Good, Evil, Law and Chaos] should've been made avaliable to all clerics in place of one granted by their alignment. I see Blood of Vol a lot like Buddhism, which many will agree is neutral. The Blood of Vol are not trying to force their beliefs on others - in fact, doing so would be in direct violations of their doctrines - and generally just want to break out of the cycle of mortality to ascend to become a god in the afterlife, instead of being sent to Dolurrh. During the Last War they made sure that Karrnath was not destroyed (thus losing many civilian lives) by animating Karrnathi troops once they fell. Unlike what a lot of people say animating civilians or enemy troops without their express permission has been stated nowhere to have been practiced, and thus it does not seem to be the prevalent attitude. Silver Flame (being considered the "anti-BoV" by many) on the other hand, has previously forced their beliefs on others, and (in my mind) probably still does so. The Purge was based on the assumption that lycanthropy harmed the soul, and so genocide was committed, despite the fact that this disease only really started becoming extremely contagious when the Silver Flame cornered the carriers. For a less extreme example (the Purge has been used to discredit CotSF too many times), during the Last War not attending service at Church would mean breaking one of your standing orders. Now, let's say I'm a Thrane but I've never really been into religion. Why would I want to listen to some guy sprouting propaganda about the glory of the Flame, when Aundarian rangers have been sighted in the area? Wouldn't I rather be out there fighting for my country, instead of having my head bowed in mock-prayer when the Aundarians come to slaughter us? Like the Blood of Vol, they also want to break out of the cycle of mortality, by binding themselves to the Flame helping to bind the evil Rajahs in their prisons. So, both have the goal of transcending mortality; on that point they're in agreement. One religion forces beliefs upon people [Evil and lawful], and one is diametrically opposed to this view [Good and lawful]. One religion believes that religion is a matter for the individual and that everyone must walk their own path [Good] while the other has people giving up becoming a god in order to guide those of less insight [Good and lawful]. One destroys undead, whether sentient or mindless [neutral], whereas the other actively creates undead from people who have willingly agreed to it (much like organ donors in RL) [lawful]. So, the way I see it, if this was a point system: Silver Flame: 1 point towards evil, 1 point towards good, 1 point towards law Blood of Vol: 2 point towards good, 3 point towards law Hmmm... I don't claim that the Blood of Vol are the good guys or that the Silver Flame are the bad guys. In fact, I see religion (of all types, whether fictual or actual) as neutral. Everything depends on interpretations of what's been written by people long ago, and while certain religions are being called the perfect expression of good others are being demonised (in RL this would be Christianity and Satanism, respectively, for a quick example).
ArcTan 07-23-07, 08:05 AM	In my opinion they should've dropped "religion alignments" in Eberron. Silver Flame isn't automatically LG and Blood of Vol is not automatically LE. Unless you drop alignment entirely, that actually poses a problem. Currently Cardinal Krozen can shield himself from discovery because his LE alignment is obscured by the fact that as a Cleric of an LG faith he radiates an LG aura. If that's no longer true, then it's hard to see why a Paladin of the Silver Flame would leave him around. They should've described the religions, its doctrines and repeated what the Eberron Campaign Setting says, that even clerics are not bound by their religions alignment. Alignment domains [Good, Evil, Law and Chaos] should've been made avaliable to all clerics in place of one granted by their alignment. I see Blood of Vol a lot like Buddhism, which many will agree is neutral. The Blood of Vol are not trying to force their beliefs on others - in fact, doing so would be in direct violations of their doctrines - and generally just want to break out of the cycle of mortality to ascend to become a god in the afterlife, instead of being sent to Dolurrh. Buddhism accepts that death is a part of life and that the cycle of reincarnation (in which Seekers do not believe) is inevitable, and that the only way to "break out of it" is to cease directly identifying with yourself, to let go of attachments and to be at peace. This is almost the direct opposite of what Seekers actually *believe*. The grand hope of the Blood of Vol is somehow breaking the hold of death by *force of will*, by wanting to continue to exist as an inviolate individual so strongly that it becomes impossible for your essence to melt away back into the gray mists of Dolurrh. They're the Sith, in other words. Selfishness and Nietzschean triumph of the will and all that crap. The fact that they do not, as you put it, "force their beliefs on others" is partly a philosophical matter -- their religion's overwhelming self-absorption -- but it's also a matter of necessity. In order to accomplish anything right now they need to keep their heads down and under the radar rather than risking a direct clash with the Vassals and Purified, who far outnumber them in Khorvaire at large. Nothing about their religion at all suggests that if the secret of immortality turned up tomorrow they wouldn't kill every last non-Seeker on Khorvaire to get it. It's the Prize. It matters above all the petty concerns of "virtue" that Vassals and Purified slave themselves to. The actual beliefs and priorities of the BoV really seem to resemble nothing in fiction more than the Death Eaters in Harry Potter. During the Last War they made sure that Karrnath was not destroyed (thus losing many civilian lives) by animating Karrnathi troops once they fell. Unlike what a lot of people say animating civilians or enemy troops without their express permission has been stated nowhere to have been practiced, and thus it does not seem to be the prevalent attitude. They introduced the practice, but it's not like the religion as a whole is responsible for the continued existence of Karrnathi Undead -- now it's run by the government and the government is openly opposed to the BoV religion. Silver Flame (being considered the "anti-BoV" by many) on the other hand, has previously forced their beliefs on others, and (in my mind) probably still does so. Aside from the rather incongruous events written down in Forge of War -- by Wolfgang Baur, who has many times come off as a writer who isn't much of a friend of the Eberron setting and doesn't really understand it -- it's actually been emphasized, repeatedly, that the Church of the Silver Flame disdains forced conversion just as much as the Blood of Vol. For the opposite reason, though -- the CotSF believes that the Silver Flame exists only to protect innocents and fight evil, and that aside from completing this earthly task the Flame has no other purpose, so demanding allegiance from those who will not be truly willing to complete the *tasks* of the Flame is pointless. (This is in direct contrast to the religion the Flame always gets compared to, Roman Catholicism, where the eternal state of one's soul is emphatically stated to be *much* more important than whatever you do on earth, which is the principal logic behind things like deathbed conversions and forced conversions.) The Purge was based on the assumption that lycanthropy harmed the soul, and so genocide was committed, despite the fact that this disease only really started becoming extremely contagious when the Silver Flame cornered the carriers. Er, the Purge was based on that metaphysical assumption, sure, which was *derived* from the observable physical phenomenon of Lycanthropy turning you into a raving bloodthirsty lunatic who turned other people into raving bloodthirsty lunatics. Where the hell are you getting that the contagion was caused by the Flame? The Lycanthropic Plague came *first*. The main body of the CotSF didn't even get involved until refugees from Aundair started begging the Church for help. (That's why even in the present day the most hardline Purified are the Puritans from Aundair who come from communities hit by the Lycanthropes. The mainstream party in Flamekeep is the one that goes around apologizing for the Purge.) For a less extreme example (the Purge has been used to discredit CotSF too many times), during the Last War not attending service at Church would mean breaking one of your standing orders. Now, let's say I'm a Thrane but I've never really been into religion. Why would I want to listen to some guy sprouting propaganda about the glory of the Flame, when Aundarian rangers have been sighted in the area? Wouldn't I rather be out there fighting for my country, instead of having my head bowed in mock-prayer when the Aundarians come to slaughter us? Welcome to a theocracy. There are people who would make the argument that it's not worth it for a nation to survive if the nation loses its principles and identity along the way. There are those who would argue with this, sure. But enforcing church attendance -- especially in a theocratic society, where most community activities (many of which we would think of as "secular") are centered around church -- is hardly oppression worth writing home about. Like the Blood of Vol, they also want to break out of the cycle of mortality, by binding themselves to the Flame helping to bind the evil Rajahs in their prisons. It's never been suggested that the doctrine that servants of the Flame "join the Flame in death" is a really major part of the faith, or the primary spur for people to join the faith. After all, it's not provable in any way. "Joining the Flame" seems to entail giving up most of your humanity and individuality. If they even believed it was true (which they mostly don't) Seekers would still reject this kind of "immortality" because it's precisely the kind of immortality they don't want -- an immortality you get by fading away into something bigger than yourself, losing your individuality, losing the Divinity Within. Which makes sense, because the Blood of Vol is based on the ancient split between the Qalbarin and the Aereni, and the Aereni *have* a secret of immortality -- the Deathless. But to be Deathless you have to give up your own identity after death to join with a higher cause to serve all the people of Aeren, and that's the kind of thing the Qalbarin couldn't stand. So, both have the goal of transcending mortality; on that point they're in agreement. Not at all, really. Tira Miron saw her own immortality as a *sacrifice* -- Tira Miron, from the moment she joined with the Flame, was no longer really Tira Miron but something else -- indeed, a *component* of a much larger something else. One religion forces beliefs upon people [Evil and lawful], and one is diametrically opposed to this view [Good and lawful]. Again, I don't see where you're getting "forces beliefs upon people", unless your major source for this is Forge of War (and even then Baur was going on the misguided if understandable route of portraying Thrane in the throes of the Last War as a much worse version of what Thrane is now). The Purge is a terrible example of "forcing beliefs" upon people. The Purge is an example of forcing the belief of the Aundairian human villagers that they shouldn't be brutally murdered and eaten on the Lycanthropes who were brutally murdering and eating them. One religion believes that religion is a matter for the individual and that everyone must walk their own path [Good] while the other has people giving up becoming a god in order to guide those of less insight [Good and lawful]. The Undead BoVers are only sort of boddhisattvas. For one thing, BoVers know that the "struggle" to wrest one's soul free of death can't really be won in Dolurrh, even though practicing "strength of the spirit" may still enable you to survive longer in Dolurrh so that you can break free if and when the living manage to break Dolurrh's power. So even though sentient Undead are giving up *true* immortality to become Undead, they are, in fact, still alive in a sense (if only half-alive) and to BoVers that is infinitely preferable to actually being dead. One destroys undead, whether sentient or mindless [neutral] Mindless Undead are technically Evil, actually. (Even if they aren't, if they're mindless, why do you care?) whereas the other actively creates undead from people who have willingly agreed to it (much like organ donors in RL) [lawful]. Don't forget ritually sacrificing members who prove themselves unworthy. Also, doing experiments to further the cause of immortality by killing people and eating their souls (Thief of Life PrC). Also, FoE makes it clear that Clerics of the BoV make it a priority to master all forms of necromantic magic, including animation. Do you *really* think they never ever use animate dead on people who don't give permission? Giving permission is not a huge part of the BoV ethos, after all ("those who are too weak to actively seek the power of the Blood are unworthy of notice, to be set aside until they are of use"). So, the way I see it, if this was a point system: Silver Flame: 1 point towards evil, 1 point towards good, 1 point towards law Blood of Vol: 2 point towards good, 3 point towards law Hmmm... I don't claim that the Blood of Vol are the good guys or that the Silver Flame are the bad guys. In fact, I see religion (of all types, whether fictual or actual) as neutral. Maybe religions, in real life, are so broad and you can find so many examples of people twisting them to different ends that you can't ever say whether something as big as Buddhism or Islam is "good" or "evil" as a whole, I think you can make your own judgment as to whether you find what a particular religion *teaches* -- or at least a particular teaching of that religion -- to be something good or bad (and, of course, others will disagree). Similarly, organizations within a religion can be judged on their actions. Everything depends on interpretations of what's been written by people long ago, and while certain religions are being called the perfect expression of good others are being demonised (in RL this would be Christianity and Satanism, respectively, for a quick example). Satanism's a bad example, since Satanism only exists and is only called "Satanism" to antagonize Christians. Most of what people call "Satanism" wasn't written very long ago at all (Anton LaVey started in, what, the 1950s?) and -- from *my* perspective -- a lot of it is pretty evil, since it's just Ayn Rand Objectivism with a stupid ritualistic bent.
Nuclear_Buddha 07-23-07, 10:49 AM	Unless you drop alignment entirely, that actually poses a problem. Currently Cardinal Krozen can shield himself from discovery because his LE alignment is obscured by the fact that as a Cleric of an LG faith he radiates an LG aura. I'm not sure that Krozen has a lot to fear from "discovery." First, while he might have an aura of good, everything we're told is that he's a hard, dangerous man concerned with maintaining his grip on the church. Only the people with detect evil will be "fooled" by his aura, then. Everyone else has to believe their eyes and ears. Second, I'm sure the church, from Jaela on down, knows that even even bad people, provided that they are interested in promoting the religion, have their uses and trying to purge them would be pointless.
Lunas_Argent 07-23-07, 11:30 AM	Mechanically it is the same. The flavor is Industrial Revolution (with Magic as the technology)/Western/Film Noire all rolled into one. Don't forget the Warforged,... Is it just me, or do these and a couple of other things about Eberron remind anyone of Full Metal Alchemist with swords, elves and dwarves?
hiryuu 07-23-07, 11:46 AM	Is it just me, or do these and a couple of other things about Eberron remind anyone of Full Metal Alchemist with swords, elves and dwarves? Not really. Actually, I'd call Fullmetal Alchemist a lot darker. Also, most technology in Fullmetal Alchemist was around the 1930s or so, just without flight technology of any sort and a much better understanding of alloys and composite materials. Eberron doesn't have steam engines or combustion engines for cars (heck, Eberron doesn't have anything that resembles cars, everyone's using horses and carriages). Eberron's tech level is closer to the very early Industrial Revolution, just without gears, clockwork, or steam power of any sort.
Lunas_Argent 07-23-07, 11:59 AM	Not really. Actually, I'd call Fullmetal Alchemist a lot darker. Also, most technology in Fullmetal Alchemist was around the 1930s or so, just without flight technology of any sort and a much better understanding of alloys and composite materials. Eberron doesn't have steam engines or combustion engines for cars (heck, Eberron doesn't have anything that resembles cars, everyone's using horses and carriages). Eberron's tech level is closer to the very early Industrial Revolution, just without gears, clockwork, or steam power of any sort. True, I guess that FMA is set in a more recent time period (actually, in one episode, Ed went through that gate and came out on the other side, Our world, and it was in about WW1, so you are tight about the time). Plus FMA at least has guns. But it still Kinda reminds me of FMA. Maybe a couple hundred years earlier?
Crake 07-23-07, 12:29 PM	True, I guess that FMA is set in a more recent time period (actually, in one episode, Ed went through that gate and came out on the other side, Our world, and it was in about WW1, so you are tight about the time). Plus FMA at least has guns. But it still Kinda reminds me of FMA. Maybe a couple hundred years earlier? On an unrelated note, I always kinda thought of the Dreaming Dark as being like Dante and the homunculi. Both organizations are effectively immortal and have the chief goal of self preservation. Both are willing manipulate people on the small scale(You, go research this), and the large scale(lets start a war today) and have the patience to wait a long time. Also like the hommunculi, specific Qouri are effectively unkillable save for a very limited set of methods. I dunno, just random thoughts.
Need_A_Life 07-23-07, 03:28 PM	On an unrelated note, I always kinda thought of the Dreaming Dark as being like Dante and the homunculi. Both organizations are effectively immortal and have the chief goal of self preservation. Both are willing manipulate people on the small scale(You, go research this), and the large scale(lets start a war today) and have the patience to wait a long time. Also like the hommunculi, specific Qouri are effectively unkillable save for a very limited set of methods. I dunno, just random thoughts. Hmm... never considered them this way... I would rather think of the DD as the leading counsel in "Claymore", deciding when someone knows "too much" and arranging their accidental death, while (seemingly?) serving humanity by destroying demons. The Homunculi (especially Gluttony) never seemed directly evil. They fought for their survival, especially seeing as how everyone wanted to destroy them for being freaks of nature. Wrath was the most human of them, and he was considered the greatest abomination (using Alchemy, when no Homunculus had ever done so), while Dante/Hohenheim had already attained an effective immortality and distanced themselves somewhat from the world. That being said, I like FMA: the movie best, because it has that whole 1930's flavour, while also keeping the morality questions found so frequently in FMA. Seriously, watch Full Metal Alchemist, everybody. You won't regret it. --- The main difference from the standard setting (a pseudo-Greyhawk setting) is that Eberron breaks stereotypes. - Halflings are not renamed hobbits. - Elves are not Tolkienish. - Dwarves are greedy, live in mountains, but they also selflessly protected humanity from monsters of Khyber even as humans were slaughtering dwarves by the hundreds. - Orcs are druids and keeps monsters of madness at bay. - Humans are relatively new on Khovaire. - Half-elves have a distinct place in society. - Half-orcs stay the same. - Warforged, the eternal soldier is left without a war to fight. They don't exist in core. - Changelings, a non-LA Doppelganger, is plain awesome with the same flavour but slightly different abilities. - Kalashtar, while mechanically... weird, have great flavour text. - Shifters have the whole Lycanthropy thing going for them.