Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Titanic Ego 07-26-04, 02:22 PM	Is anyone else just a little bit befuddled by the ridiculous weakness of the kingdoms of Khorvaire in comparison to the other inhabitants of Eberron? Even the mightiest kingdom could only muster a few hundred thousand troops for a total war, mostly warriors and with only a tiny fraction of significant casters. But at the same time there are many creatures with the ability to defeat entire armies themselves. Consider vampires: a vampire can cast dominate person at will, with a duration of several days, and can repeatedly attack individuals until they succumb: 600 attempts per hour. It would be trivial for a vampire to take control of whole armies (even easier if the fiend created a few spawn) and crush any enemy force. Mind flayers could wreak similar havoc. A balor from Fernia could do even more with dominate monster. Or take a reasonably aged dragon from Argonessen with a bee in her bonnet: even elite troops will only hit it on a natural 20, it can wipe out champions or spellcasters in one round, and it has the mobility and destructive force to wipe out granaries, transports, and settlements. In the campaign book we are told that 'most' of the daelkyr and abberrations remain underground but that occasionally some emerge, and there are a number of extant rakshasa. A rakshasa or two can assassinate more or less any mortal leader and escape untouched, and one fast healing daelkyr could reasonably expect to defeat entire nations. The creators have indicated that these threats stand in reserve for potentially epic heroes like the PC's, but what keeps the mortals alive right now? Do the dragons actively work to prevent the annihilation of the humans, policing other forces? The gods?
Dauntless 07-26-04, 02:54 PM	The dragons police themselves. The barbarians along the edge of the Demon Waste are constantly on the look out for rakshasas and the like emerging. The monsters of Droaam have enough trouble with each other without dealing with the humanoids. As for the vampires? All it takes is a squad of warforged who can't be hit with Dominate Person to go after him.
UniversalJoker 07-26-04, 03:13 PM	You hit the nail on the head. Why don't these threats cause the end of life as everyone knows it on Khorvaire? Because the PCs are there to stop them. Drizzt isn't there. Elminster isn't there. It is up to the PCs. Awesome responsibility, isn't it? In Eberron, you can't go crying to the big goodies to pull your butt out of the frying the pan. You do it, because you are the best that civilization has to offer. If this isn't for you, then great. Forgotten Realms may be more your speed. I am not going to say that there is anything wrong with anyones prefered style of game or setting. But I will say that it is about time that someone published something like Eberron for me. Torg has been mentioned several times on these boards. Eberron embodies a great deal of the feel of that OOP game to me. I think that it is great.
lukelightning 07-26-04, 03:28 PM	Don't forget the bad guys probably fight with each other far more than we realize. The Blood of Vol doesn't look to kindly on Dragon Below cultists digging up graves... cuz that's their turf.
Pallis 07-26-04, 03:38 PM	I just think that the shadow of the threat from these quarters makes Khorvaire all the better, game-wise. Consider the effects of a such a drawn out engagement and the tone of the setting; this is a place of fear and doubt, uncertainties heaped high. Who's to say that these powerful forces aren't planning such schemes of dominion? ...it's up to the PCs to make sure that such nefarious plans aren't put into action...
StinkyNutz 07-26-04, 03:59 PM	Originally posted by Titanic Ego Even the mightiest kingdom could only muster a few hundred thousand troops for a total war, mostly warriors and with only a tiny fraction of significant casters. "Only" a few hundred thousand???? That my friend is a very large army indeed. Don't know what kind of world you live in, but 100,000 armed men being angry at me isnt my idea of no big deal. "hey bob, we're in trouble!" "what're you talking about, I count only what, a few hundred thousand guys out there...I've been min/maxed and know fireball...no worries." Maybe someone should stop metagaming...that or just go play FR.
Titanic Ego 07-26-04, 04:51 PM	Originally posted by StinkyNutz "Only" a few hundred thousand???? That my friend is a very large army indeed. Don't know what kind of world you live in, but 100,000 armed men being angry at me isnt my idea of no big deal. "hey bob, we're in trouble!" "what're you talking about, I count only what, a few hundred thousand guys out there...I've been min/maxed and know fireball...no worries." Maybe someone should stop metagaming...that or just go play FR. Iraq had a few hundred thousand men during the first Gulf War, and they were ripped apart by the precise application of highly concentrated American firepower. High level magic users or powerful monsters with stealth or aerial capabilities should occupy a role analogous to cruise missiles and nuclear weapons. I can accept that: on Earth France could nuke Syria into radioactive ash but there are good geopolitical reasons why this does not happen. Intervention by other nuclear powers, costs to public relations and trade, and other factors prevent it. But in Eberron we have the equivalent of dozens of distinct, often murderous nuclear powers, and some restraint must exist for each of them. I don't think that "the PCs are the restraint" is a sufficient response, since the world survives while the PCs develop, and the PCs will always be vastly outnumbered by the super-powerful threats. So what are these reasons? Dragons: I agree with Dauntless that the dragons can police themselves if they choose to do so. Further, they have the power to police everyone else if they choose (and we know they monitor and limit the fiends for their own reasons.) Perhaps they wish to preserve the lesser races because of the role their dragonmarks play in revealing the Prophecy, in which case the mortals are in a Taiwan-type situation. The Quori and such dare not attack the mortals for fear of unleashing draconic wrath. Rakshasa: The rajahs are under control, and they are the only ones with the strength to trouble Great Wyrms, but individual rakshasa all have the power to topple kingdoms. The combination of amazing infiltration abilities with combat or magic capability that is legendary by Eberron's standards should allow one angry fiend to wreak enormous havoc. Consider the damage a handful of terrorists can do in our modern society: a single rakshasa can poison water supplies, set fires, commit multiple murders every night, spread plagues, and generally mess with mortals. Since there is no single supreme authority governing the rakshasa we need an explanation for every single one refraining from such behavior. The barbarian guardians who seek to contain the evil are not successful, as we know that the rakshasa wander the world freely, leaving and returning. In an actual confrontation they are likely to be slaughtered in any case. One possibility: the rakshasa do not breed, or cannot breed without their rajahs, and so the survivors are exceedingly careful with their immortal lives. Alternatively, the strongest survivors have instituted a 'Masquerade' type policy to avoid bringing down fierce draconic retribution on the free rakshasa. Vampires: Warforged are no solution, since the vampire can order its hundreds of humanoid warriors to rip the construct to pieces. The danger is that the vampire can amass an army with ease by subverting the mortals. Spectres, wights, and wraiths pose a similar problem with their ability to convert victims into spawn. The Blood of Vol has the capability to create these beings, and the cultists all wish to become undead, so one might expect that they would proliferate. After all, why would the cultists continue their devotion if they do NOT have a realistic expectation of becoming a sentient undead? These armies should then be able to crush any resistance. We might suppose that Vol fears to reveal herself to the dragons who once sought to destroy her, but she has attempted to control Karnnath in the past so she clearly does have secular ambitions that she could have realized. The Quori: While they most likely could conquer Khorvaire, it would not be as easy for them as for the powers discussed above, and would require a national concensus. This would make it very easy for them to be deterred by fear of draconic or other intervention. However, we do not have stats for the stronger Quori, only the very weakest, and it is likely that the mightier Quori will have some fairly ridiculous powers. Other monsters: The humanoids, while strong, can be overcome through sheer numbers since they lack powerful transportation, stealth, or magical abilities. Even the medusa has only a 30 foot range for her petrification attack and can be pincushioned with arrows. Xoriat-spawn: We know that there are a small handful of beholders, mind flayers, and daelkyr running around outside of the seals. The daelkyr are insane by mortal standards and can act individually, so deterrence is unlikely to work. Why have none of these beings gone out and caused some trouble?
SFNosferatu 07-26-04, 05:20 PM	look at it his way, the barbarians are doing a great job because imagine how many lords of dust would be running around if they wherent containing them. The inspired, as keith said on the psionics boards (the xph races in eberon post) (95% sure it was in that thread) that the inspired are immortal and their plans take thousands of years to fold out. There not gonna just come over and attack, thats not their style. (although in a century........) And as for the vampries and the other bumps in the night that might threaten us. Gatekeepers, Church of the Silver Flame, the Dragon Mark Houses..................tons of guys that would say no before the vampire (or others) even think to do the nasty world domination stuff. EDIT Hell even the Elves and there armies of positivily charge undead would step into the fray if a vampire did what you where thinking about.
Altaris 07-26-04, 05:50 PM	Those are very good points Nosferatu. While the PC's are there to be the Heroes of the campaign, I would suggest to Titanic Ego that you go and very carefully read the ECS from cover to cover. You just might find certain political plot threads that are suggested by Keith Baker and associates. Said plot suggestions include some of those things you were afraid of, along with the reasons as to why those events have yet to come to pass.
debatedeus 07-26-04, 06:14 PM	I've wondered something like this in every DnD world I've ever played in. Even with Elminster or that dual-weilding scimitar drow guy running around, can they be everywhere at once? More to the point, there are epic level powers acting in Eberron whether they are NPC's or not. I suspect these powers play a role in maintaining the balance of power. But first, to address the concerns stated point-by-point: The Kingdoms of Khorvaire may or may not be rediculously weak. Simply because there are not single people who can take on large threats in single combat, on their own, does not mean that people cannot address large threats. Consider the following: What do you think a squad of 50 magewrights with Eternal Wands of Magic Missile at third caster level would do? If they all get to fire off their wands for two rounds, they can dish out 200d4+200. No save. Ignoring the problem of spell resistance, how many monsters can take that level of assault? I know that 600 average damage over two rounds is nothing to sneeze at. I had an Epic Level Tempest who could pull that off every round regularly, and I was a havoc on my poor DM at the time. Poor old Dryzzt can't even muster that. In my opinion, the nations of Khorvaire are not weak, they just have to approach combat slightly differently than a PC would. Like in real life, they would need to focus on tactics and working together. They need to wait for the right moment and act at that time. They would study their enemy, and plan their attack. Maybe magic missiling someone to death isn't the solution everytime, but there are a number of creative answers out there besides "drop a fireball" on the enemy. Vampires are definitely vulnerable to the above startegy. Moreover, dominate person can only affect one person a round, and the Vampire needs to take time to direct each person individually. It is much more efficient for a Vamp to go into melee with such a group rather than to dominate all of them. A smart group of lowlevel NPCs can overcome a Vampire by preparing items of its weakness to protect themselves. All they need is sunlight! Or Garlic, or Holy Symbols, or anything of the like. Every once in a while, a champion may come forward who can fight the Vampire directly, but such people are supposed to be rare. They are your Rambos, your Doc Savages, your PCs. Also, don't forget the resources of the Dragonmarked Houses, Warforged Juggernats, and a bunch of other things that average NPC leaders have access to because of the recent war activities. Maybe the Rhakashas can get out now and again. Keith has said that a number of Rhakashas and Dragons operate behind thrones as advisors and things. No big deal. The Rhakashas are immortal, and when they die, its all over. They aren't going to take unneccessary risks, or put themselves out on a limb unless they are desperate. They won't charage out into bloody combat because even a party of 10 fourth level barbarians could level a single one of them in combat and their numbers are not large enough to charge out en masse. Don't believe me? Try running it in a fair fight. Play the barbarians with strategy and intelligence, and real feelings like "If I don't stop this demon it will mean the end of my life and of the lives of other innocents." The dragons from Argossen don't care about the pathetic lesser races. They don't interefere, and they don't need their continent of Khorvaire. They could attack and pose a huge problem, one that would require innovative solutions or (gasp) heroes like the PCs. Such a story turn though would allow the PCs to step up and save the day. Aberrations have an entire druidic sect dedicated to their destruction. Aside from all the startegies mentioned above, the Gatekeepers have special methods of stopping aberrations and act constantly to monitor their movements. These non epic druids somehow managed to knock the plane of Xoriat off of its normal rotational access--I'm sure they could find a way to take out any given aberration. Unless that aberration is suicidal, it will not act in an entirely overt way, less they draw the attention of the Gatekeepers. With all of this said, where does this leave the PCs? As heroes, they can do more than what the average person can do. Alone they can take on a giant that would take 50 magewrights to kill. What makes them amazing is what they can accomplish on their own. NPCs, even low level NPCs, can manage the things that PCs can do, but it takes them dramatically more resources and effort to do so.
Zelgadas 07-26-04, 07:16 PM	Originally posted by StinkyNutz "Only" a few hundred thousand???? That my friend is a very large army indeed. Don't know what kind of world you live in, but 100,000 armed men being angry at me isnt my idea of no big deal. "hey bob, we're in trouble!" "what're you talking about, I count only what, a few hundred thousand guys out there...I've been min/maxed and know fireball...no worries." Maybe someone should stop metagaming...that or just go play FR. I agree wholeheartedly with this assessment. Current tribulations in Iraq aside, medieval/fantasy-era warfare is very different. Heck, look to the Lord of the Rings movies (Two Towers, specifically) to see what I'm talking about. Remember how many orcs there were in the battle for Helm's Deep? "Tens of thousands", Saruman said. As in, not even ONE hundred thousand. Remember what Wormtongue said when Saruman said he'd need an army of "tens of thousands"? He said, "My lord, there is no such army." Yeah, that's what I'm talking about. A few hundred thousand armed soldiers is no trivial thing.
NOOC PHD 07-26-04, 07:41 PM	I think the thing to remember is that Khorvaire isn't a dungeon. The monsters aren't going to sit quietly while the PC's fight the monsters in the next room, ignoring the sounds of battle and the like and only checking to see if they're surprised once the PC's knock down the door. Khorvaire isn't a computer game. If one of the power groups mentioned in the above post were to make a play for world domination, then the other power groups would go for it as well. It's like a Cold War - no one strikes with all their force because they know that the second that they do its M.A.D. (Mutually Assured Destruction for those of you who don't remember the Cold War;) )
debatedeus 07-26-04, 09:49 PM	Originally posted by NOOC PHD I think the thing to remember is that Khorvaire isn't a dungeon. The monsters aren't going to sit quietly while the PC's fight the monsters in the next room, ignoring the sounds of battle and the like and only checking to see if they're surprised once the PC's knock down the door. Khorvaire isn't a computer game. If one of the power groups mentioned in the above post were to make a play for world domination, then the other power groups would go for it as well. It's like a Cold War - no one strikes with all their force because they know that the second that they do its M.A.D. (Mutually Assured Destruction for those of you who don't remember the Cold War;) ) This is a really good point, although I do not think most people run their dungeons this way...
Kirsa 07-27-04, 05:10 PM	Even the mightiest kingdom could only muster a few hundred thousand troops for a total war Yes this is a large number, and wildly inacurate, even for total war. the real number would be much much smaller percent of the population. This is every able bodied man. The old, infirm, young, women are left at home, this is a sizable number. Royalty, and members of the great families are too left out, again quite a few people, troops must be left to gaurd strategic points and reserves, police the remaining populous and gaurd other borders. Craftsmen have to toil, farmers need to grow and the army itself must be supplied and run. At it's height the Roman Empire had 56 million people, 1 million in Rome alone. Ceasar commanded 28 Legeons of ~6000 men each, 168,000 men total in the standing army. Assuming that number could be doubled (a big if), it makes the power of the greatest empire of the classic world 0.4% of its population. Karrnath at 2.5 million people then could raise an army of a little over 12,000. Large, but hardly impressive. Assuming there is some tweaking to do we can raise the number to an even 15,000. Against this we have the powerful creatures and humanoids. I like some of the earlier posters find the world a bit lopsided - though I like the idea of the wand weilded wave of Magic Missles.. . Kirsa
ruleslawyer 07-27-04, 06:24 PM	Originally posted by NOOC PHD If one of the power groups mentioned in the above post were to make a play for world domination, then the other power groups would go for it as well. It's like a Cold War - no one strikes with all their force because they know that the second that they do its M.A.D. (Mutually Assured Destruction for those of you who don't remember the Cold War;) ) See, the interesting thing is that the much-maligned NPC-heavy setting of FR is actually the one in which this point is made explicitly and repeatedly by the setting's creator Ed Greenwood (check p. 83 of the FRCS, for example, as well as Ed's comments going way back). A setting with really powerful NPCs, whether "good guys" or villains, can work because even the most powerful actors have constraints, whether strategic or material, on their behavior. A well-run FR campaign, for example, will acknowledge that the world's powerful good NPCs are constantly beset by their own sets of problems and threats, and that their strivings against those efforts and threats are the reason why the PCs even got to draw breath in the first place. When the PCs hit their stride, they can step into the active role once held by luminaries like Elminster, the Seven Sisters, or Mirt and Durnan and be on the front lines against the great evils that threaten the world, something that the main NPCs have retired from doing or simply have their hands too full to do. An Eberron campaign, OTOH, will acknowledge some or all of the following: a) Actually, there are in fact powerful non-evil or competing interests that have kept the world's great evils in check before the PCs arrived on the scene, or while they were absent. This certainly must be the case given the Silver Flame's success in practically eliminating(!) lycanthropes from Eberron, the Gatekeepers' ability to contain the Daelkyr within Khyber, and the kalashtar's efforts, however subtle, to weaken the Inspired, which have no doubt hindered the aspirations of the Inspired to dominate Khorvaire. So there's definitely someone out there doing this work. b) The truly deadly threats were sitting back and waiting for the Last War to weaken Khorvaire to the point of being ripe for conquest or destruction, as is logical given the long lifespans of most of Eberron's deadlier monsters. c) Any major threat that emerges in the campaign is either brand-new (in other words, that powerful vampire NPC isn't vampire #25 in a long-running series menacing the countryside, but Vampire #1, which fits in nicely with the plots of most monster movies, after all, including that Eberron inspiration The Mummy) or is materially restricted from acting (as are the daelkyr, Lords of Dust, and actually all the really dangerous monsters in Eberron!). It's worth noting that while the book says that "some" daelkyr or rakshasas are free, I take "some" to mean "as many as you need to create a threat for your PCs to combat." So yes, these creatures can, by themselves, wreak havoc on entire kingdoms. Again, that's rather a staple of the monster-movie, pulp-fiction tone that forms at least one of Eberron's major influences. OTOH, there's enough of a counter-rationale to rampant metagaming that the players aren't automatically going to think that there's no way the world would have survived to give them birth.
NOOC PHD 07-27-04, 06:31 PM	Originally posted by Kirsa Yes this is a large number, and wildly inacurate, even for total war. the real number would be much much smaller percent of the population. This is every able bodied man. The old, infirm, young, women are left at home, this is a sizable number. Royalty, and members of the great families are too left out, again quite a few people, troops must be left to gaurd strategic points and reserves, police the remaining populous and gaurd other borders. Craftsmen have to toil, farmers need to grow and the army itself must be supplied and run. At it's height the Roman Empire had 56 million people, 1 million in Rome alone. Ceasar commanded 28 Legeons of ~6000 men each, 168,000 men total in the standing army. Assuming that number could be doubled (a big if), it makes the power of the greatest empire of the classic world 0.4% of its population. Karrnath at 2.5 million people then could raise an army of a little over 12,000. Large, but hardly impressive. Assuming there is some tweaking to do we can raise the number to an even 15,000. Against this we have the powerful creatures and humanoids. I like some of the earlier posters find the world a bit lopsided - though I like the idea of the wand weilded wave of Magic Missles.. . Kirsa Rome isn't a good parallel for Khorvaire nations. Khorvaire is a proto-industrial culture. Food production is much more secure; food transport in the form of House Orien services would allow larger armies to travel further before they have to live off the land. Moreover, Karrnath's army has large numbers that neither have to eat nor sleep (the undead soldiers). It is a much better historical parallel to compare Khorvaire with the Napoleonic wars, where service in the army all but destroyed the male members of the lower classes for an entire generation in some countries. Prussia was reduced to a foreign army with a Prussian officer corps. I don't have the exact numbers, but I do know that Napoleon raised at least one army of over one million and maintained army corps during his reign of around several hundred thousand. Rome had foot and oxen transport systems, not lightning rails, skyships and mobile fortresses.
Titanic Ego 07-27-04, 07:25 PM	On the size of mortal forces- The Roman Legions were small because they were professionals (which meant that they could not farm in a society with a very small agricultural surplus; Rome's population was only able to reach 1 million because cheap Egyptian grain could be seized and shipped by sea) and their equipment was so expensive as to severely tax the empire's finances. Not to mention the auxiliaries and other non-legion forces, which were more numerous than the legions proper. From the Eberron demographics information we see that 5% of the population has warrior levels and 1% has magewright levels. In a society with a militia of all able-bodied males (something that a hundred years of war might have helped to develop) I don't see a 10% mobilization rate as so deeply unreasonable in a last-ditch defensive scenario. On massed magic missile wands (or any other wands)- Globe of Invulnerability or SR 27-your pick.
debatedeus 07-27-04, 08:44 PM	Originally posted by Titanic Ego On massed magic missile wands (or any other wands)- Globe of Invulnerability or SR 27-your pick. Then either a targeted dispel or how many it takes, then 49 Magic Missiles. or, Ranged Volleys from Arrows staying 110 ft. or more away and a wide spread. Even if only one in 20 hit, if the archers keep their distance they'll prevail. or, Alchemists flasks, tanglefoot bags, etc, etc. This could become a "I'll counter your counter" bit, but I'm making a point. Nations and people will pick their tactics based on what will be effective, and someone who has access to the SR or the Globe has an advantage that would have to be worked around. My point still remains, low level people, with organization and a little intelligence, have the potential to take out most anything that would threaten them.
Kirsa 07-27-04, 10:00 PM	In a society with a militia of all able-bodied males (something that a hundred years of war might have helped to develop) I don't see a 10% mobilization rate as so deeply unreasonable in a last-ditch defensive scenario. 10% is still very high I think. More in a second. It is a much better historical parallel to compare Khorvaire with the Napoleonic wars, A very good point, especially when you factor in magic. An even better parallel though might be the US Civil War. Cannon as Fireballs, magical healing versus fast saws and keeping things clean, Ironclads vs the large created, etc. The 1960 Census puts the US (free) population at ~27 Million. Estimates of the number of men under arms during the whole of the war is generally thought to be 4 Million or 14%. That is over 5 years though and by the end the South was sending old men and boys to war (Much easier to load and fire a musket than swing a sword. I wont even try to take a stab at the wounded ratios, the Civil war was, as everyone knows very very bloody. After 100 years of war I would imagine that the Five Nations would be in the same shape as the South was, and weak as kitttens. But still, one of the greatest mobilizations in history and they got 14%. And for the curious 1940 US Census put the population at 296 Million, total number of US men and women that servered in WWII - 16.1 million, 5% of the population over 5 years, showing that modern armies need even greater support at home. Sera
NOOC PHD 07-27-04, 11:58 PM	Fair points Kirsa, but in the WWII example don't forget that the US was maintaining its armies at distances of several thousand kilometres. I'm sure the US would have fielded a much larger force if they'd been defending US soil. Nazi Germany had population of around 70 million (off the top of my head) and it fielded an army of 8 million.
malisteen 07-28-04, 12:52 AM	There are high level goodies in Eberron. The first and foremost that comes to my mind is the gatekeeper sect, a small army of low to mid level druids and rangers led by a high druid of 20th level. Yes he's a tree, but if any serious daelkyr threat emerged he could certainly suddenly be a bear rather then a tree, a big fat dire bear with 20 hit dice of magic. Beyond that, there are the dragons, an entire nation of ridiculously tough beasts who, while they prefer to sit at home and watch the sky, would certainly send an entire army of winged behemoths if they thought the world was in danger. Several might come to save even just khorvaire, as that continent is the only one to exibit living dragon marks, integral componants of their prophecy. And they are very quick to deal with rogue dragons who they feel unduely interphere with that prophecy. As for vampires, the baddest known vampire known to be active IS a goodie. And on that note, a several of the active baddie groups want to control the world, not destroy it. Vol wants the return of her family's mark, and perhaps a good spot of revenge on those who wronged her, but she would not be pleased to see the world in rakshasa hands, and would quite possibly fight to prevent that. So yes, there are critical threats in Eberron, although most are held off at least temporarily while waiting for the proper planar alignments. At the same time, there are powerful figures for good, or at least neutral, in Eberron, it's just that most of them prefer to sit in the background until something really important is going down, like for instance one of those planar alignment thingies.
Xavim 07-28-04, 03:41 AM	the problem with magic high warfare is that the moment one side loses their mages, they lose the war. A single 5th level wizard with fly, windwall and a wand of fireball can singlehandedly annialate an army of hundreds. There's absolutely nothing they can do to combat him. with him hovering 100' off the ground surrounded by a magical barrier that makes him completely immune to arrows, and nuking everything in sight, you absolutely NEED another spellcaster to defeat him. It just get's crazy if he has a wand of Windwall aswell... His 2nd level protection from arrows spell would ensure he survives his windwall barrier jumps when he cases down the little boys that are running away. Thus it really doesn't matter if a nation can field 14,000 armed men as they can be turned to ash by a cadre of 50 low level mages. So Ebberon has to focus on QUALITY of troops as opposed to Quantity. A unit of Artificers imbuing weapons, enchanting the warforged, supported by flying artillery casters with healers in the thick of the battle reviving fallen human and construct alike. A unit of Changlings dressed in enemy uniforms would be utterly DEVISTATING in a war if they attack, blend in, change their faces, then attacking again. So it doesn't matter if all of the kingdoms could only field 10,000 troops so long as those troops are well trained and the army is built in a manner befitting a magic high setting. What Rakshaza wants to have to face a strike force of flying psions and mages supporting raging Warforged barbarians, with flanking Changling rogues and Shifter rangers? heh, sounds almost like a group or 2 of PCs to me :D
Brastan 07-28-04, 05:01 AM	Smaller elite force can be just as effective as large greener ones. When you have escalating war for like in Eberron everyone progress quickly to the others level just to save their asses. Plus I don't think there were many large scale battles except in the beginning. The nations were defiantly in survival mode as the Last War progressed. The issue of the Nations being weak is a non-issue. No one is going to do anything major until they figure out what happened to Cyre. Most of a nation was completely destroyed not four years ago. That's a major thing, I would think that everyone is nervous about that one. Eberron is in a cycle between disasters. How does Khorvaire Survive? Well the nations have been at war for just about 100 years. Who (I mean outsiders) wants to get in the middle of that. Thats a bad time to show up and take over. Everyones on edge and jumpy plus they would unite (temporally) to kick you out faster then you can say Banishment. Another thing is how little the plains get mentioned as a factor, (happy that they have been here) since they are one of primal forces of the setting. Its not like standard DnD cosmology and must be taken into account at every turn. For goodness sakes there's a Prophecy that make use of them. Some Dragons probably devote their whole live to tracking them and their interactions. Do you really need another disaster so quick, isn't that over kill. Give it ten years. By that time there will be heros ready to die to prevent it, again.
Titanic Ego 07-28-04, 03:15 PM	Speaking of high-level forces of good, we haven't discussed the angels of Sylania (sp?.) Whole cities of astral devas and planetars, each ruled by a solar, and there are no special barriers preventing them from travelling to Eberron. Heck, the whole city of Sharn is a manifest zone for the plane, and the angels can arrive anywhere in the entire sky during the frequent coterminous periods (though since they can all plane shift, they really don't need to wait.) The Keeper of the Flame can call on one of the planetars with planar ally spell and cause quite a bit of consternation to evildoers.
Darson 07-28-04, 03:28 PM	What about the FACT that the ubber baddies in this setting are 1)smart enough to recruit there own thousands strong meat shields....I mean warriors, and 2) have the magical power to do it from YOUR thousads strong meat shield army. Yes, the nations can use solid tactics to repel brutes....But a smart enemy just really wipes the floor. The commander of the mobile fortress, is a 4th level paladin......That makes NO sence..Even with his 9th level mage friend backing him up, he should have been taken by one of the ubber baddies LONG ago...if for no other reason than it would have been fun.
scaryfroman 07-28-04, 03:46 PM	Speaking of the planes, don't forget Shavarath, the Battleground. Perhaps the constant war between the forces of LG (archons) and CE/LE (demons/devils) has something to do with the restraint of evil entities. It is kind of an abstract thought, but maybe it is the constant fight for balance on that plane that transcends the boundaries of Eberron and determines the fate of the world. Of course, if the archons from that plane could also keep the evil on Khorvaire in check, too.
Puggins 07-28-04, 05:15 PM	Originally posted by Darson What about the FACT that the ubber baddies in this setting are 1)smart enough to recruit there own thousands strong meat shields....I mean warriors, and 2) have the magical power to do it from YOUR thousads strong meat shield army. Yes, the nations can use solid tactics to repel brutes....But a smart enemy just really wipes the floor. The commander of the mobile fortress, is a 4th level paladin......That makes NO sence..Even with his 9th level mage friend backing him up, he should have been taken by one of the ubber baddies LONG ago...if for no other reason than it would have been fun. What uber-baddies do you speak of? The lord of blades is a mid-level warforged fighter/artificer- 13th level, right? The Queen of the Blood of Vol doesn't even have access to 9th level spells. People also seem to be reasoning these things out as if the enemy were static, waiting for all these uber tactics to be unleashed upon him with no response ready- the enemy is not. A wonderful parallel to this firepower escalation is World War I (hmm, what a surprise). The allies (Britain, Russia and France) and the minor Central Powers (Austria-Hungary) entered the war using outdated tactics which emphasized large unit movements and infantry weapon tactics. They still believed that ultimately the combat would result in hand to hand fighting, much like every single war beforehand unfolded. Germany begged to differ, and proceeded to rout the allies for the first two years of the war. It did not win the war simply because it did not have the manpower necessary, but in practically every tactical battle the allies suffered 3:1 casualties and were usually forced to relinquish their position. Finally they caught up to the situation- Germany's artillery was so dominant that they had to find an answer or ultimately lose the numbers game. The same situation would happen in Eberron. Tactic: Cyre unleashes its newPhoenix legion- one hundred mages equipped with wands of fireballs and shield spells, flying above the battleground safely behind windwalls. Result: Enemy Legions, which contain at most a couple of mages for support and usually maneuver in tight formations are annihilated. The enemy nations withdraw, giving up territory for time. Response: Enemy nations secretly reorganize their mage corps. Each mage is given a wand of lightning bolts and a resist fire charm. Infantry divisions are also reformed. Rather than a legion-style mass formation, they adopt platoon-style dispersed formations that emphasize maneuver and high firepower. Each formation is assigned a mage now dressed in standard military attire. Result: Cyre Phoenix formations expend huge numbers of fireball charges dealing with these new dispersed formations- rather than killing 25 to 50 troops with each fireball, they are now lucky to kill 3 to 5. Worse, the occasional platoon turns out to be a Thunder Spirit mage-killer platoon, equipped with fire resistant charms and accompanied by mages that are hard to spot and can eliminate a Phoenix trooper at effective ranges far longer than the hapless trooper can match. Several dozen mages are lost before the Phoenix Legion is withdrawn (their wands captured in the process). Cyre forces are beaten back and forced to go on the defensive by a rejuvenated and streamlined enemy that now has the magical advantage. Response: Cyre reorganizes the Phoenix Legion. No longer do the mages fly, since they are too easily spotted and eliminated by opposing mages. Troopers are assigned to two major battlefield roles: artillery (the Dragon's Breath division) and Mage-Killing snipers (The Dragon's Talon division). Each Cyre Mage platoon is organized around one cadre of each division and supported by several dozen infantry men. New anti-mage tactics are developed- once an enemy Thunder Spirit platoon is identified, the mage will be baited out by the Dragon's Breath trooper (who is now equipped with resistance charms of his own). Once the mage is identified, the Dragon's Talon trooper attacks the Thunder Spirit mage and neutralizes him. Result: resurgent enemy advances are blunted as Thunder Spirit platoons begin to suffer increased casualties. the offensive grinds to a halt as the general staff realizes that continues attacks will result in extreme depletion of the mage corps. ..... and so on. Armies and nations adapt or die. Clearly, the surviving nations adapted.
Lilith-Darkmoon 07-28-04, 07:54 PM	Having only thoroughly read the first couple of chapters, but a particular phrase sticks out in my mind, something to the effect of "The Last War ended two years ago." ... That is a REALLY short time - in comparison, people are still affected by 9/11 (and that was almost three years ago). The psychological imprint of the Last War would be affect a very large portion of the populace (pretty much all of them), and from what I understand, the Last War was pretty darn all-encompassing. Only the truly depraved would want to sink an entire continent into war again - and maybe those depraved minds did take part in the Last War, and are waiting to do so again, taking the time to gather their forces, etc etc etc. Think of post-WWI - our nation was so opposed to getting involved in foreign affairs that we did not get involved in WWII until we were the ones being directly affected - meanwhile, in Europe, they had been suffering with an oppressive regime for at least two years (more in other areas). What's to say that the other nations & rulers of Khorvaire don't feel the same way? "It's not our problem" or "We've suffered enough already" etc etc etc. As stated, there are many "geo-political" reasons that war hasn't broken out again on Khorvaire - stepping back to look at the big picture of things and realizing that the world is not a static place would definitely make a world (even a high-adventure-fantasy one) more realistic. Rulers and the populace are still people, and depsite our best intentions, will sometimes follow the dictate of emotion ("I don't wanna") rather than logic ("I don't want to, but I should"). Okay, I think I've rambled enough.
Endless_Helix 07-28-04, 09:50 PM	One major controlling factor in eberron is the mournland.The sort of baddies that enjoy taking over the world have an ego the size of asia and need to control just as large. The mornland is a permanent reminder that someone is more powerful than they are. You can be bloody sure they aren't going to go off half-cocked trying to conquer the world if whatever caused that is still on the loose. What happened in the mournland would even scare the rakshasas. I highly doubt that even the dragons and couatls caused that much damage in the age of feinds on the basis that there aren't any older mournlands. it's a safe assumption that nothing on the mournland's level has ever been attempted and succeeded so completely. The next major stabalizing factor is the Dragonmarked Houses. War is good for the economy while it lasts, but as soon as it ends, the economy has extreme troubles in the lack of able-bodied men. People are too busy reconstrcting their lives to buy luxuries, and that is bad for buisness. And frankly, I wouldn't relish taking on House Phiarlanni, House Denieth, House Cannith, House Thurrani, and House Lyrandar by themselves or together. The final nail in the coffin is the organizations. If the dreaming dark make's a move thats too obvious the LoD, BoV, and Emerald Claw would all be ready to take the DD out of it's seat as soon as it slipped up, not to mention the chamber, the Citadel, the CotDB, and the Aereni. The sentiment is mutual, if it is only an implied threat, but a very likely one. Every Orginization is determined get it's desires, even at the expense of others. These are all proven ways that Khorvaire has survived. Just cuz theres no Drizzts or El-monsters and no readily availible gods, doesn't mean that the Entire Continent will fall. In fact, most baddies start out small, with a village or some ruins first and then an attempt a small city. BY the time they've actually done anything really earthshaking, they've probably been nearly killed hundreds of times. Many die without fulfilling themsleves. This high mortality rate is a major cringe factor for less violent or vicious aspirants, who generally become innkeepers or similar.
Brastan 07-28-04, 10:15 PM	Well said Endless. You got to the point that was being batted about. That its big powerful organizations instead of really powerful characters doing the balancing act. This high mortality rate is a major cringe factor for less violent or vicious aspirants, who generally become innkeepers or similar. :heehee Speaking of organizations I think house Cannith is the weakest of the lot, begin split into 3 factions they are effectively crippled as a real threating power. I have an artificer player whose goal is to become the new head of house Cannith.
Useless 07-29-04, 12:28 AM	+++++but in practically every tactical battle the allies suffered 3:1 casualties and were usually forced to relinquish their position.+++++ Got in a few good licks though what? http://www.1914-1918.net/bat1.htm and they were defeated in the field by the French at the First Battle of the Marne with just about equal casualties on both sides and an end to Germanies chances of their needed swift victory. Er, otherwise, I agree. Like to see more massed ranks of heavy cav though. (And sometimes constant striving for counters can lead to difficulties - all that ******* about with Wunderwaffe and jets and enormous tanks in the second round cost the Germans far more than they gained from it, even as their mismanagement of their war industries was hastening their defeat)
Save_vs_DM 07-29-04, 02:35 AM	I would also like to point out the "aid another" action. Take even 2000 war 1, provided a big monster from the mourlands goes rampaging. 15 Str. +3 to hit (+2 Str, +1 BAB) average damage 6. Big monster comes in. One warrior attacks it while seven other use the aid another action. +17 to hit now. Average attack roll of +27. That hits nearly anything. Figure an average of 6 points a round. Figure the monster can kill 4 warriors at MOST per round. He needs 500 rounds to kill all the fighters. Up until about round 480 he's taking an average of 6 points per round, or 2720 damage. Even with DR 5/ anything, it's taking 480 damage, average. The only thing that's going to give them trouble is something with damage reduction higher than 5. So even a smallish army could take down something rather tough if they had too. Better yet, give them all longspears and shortspears. The back ranks use aid another and throw their shortspears or use the aid another action. Also, what prevents the soldiers from running away from the flying windwall mage, into a keep? Those arrow slits give them a +8 bonus to reflex saves and the benefit of evasion. Soliders have a lot of time to get lucky, it only takes one bad arrow to kill that mage, he has a lot of soldiers to kill. Plus, look at war weariness? Who wants to support such a large contingent of troops bent on taking over the world? Troops need to sleep, eat and be taken care of? After 100 years of war I really don't think many commoners are anxious to support another army (and stealing or pillaging resources takes more time, and will also really invite religious fervor). Evil never works well with evil. They all want everything for themselves...what is to stop the Blood of Vol from taking the fortress of another evil invasion while they are invading? I'm sure all the evil cults and powers are quite paranoid about leaving themselves open to attack. *shrug* An intersting question and one I enjoy debating, but not quite as huge a worry as you think it is. Cheers, Save-vs-DM
Eagle Prince 07-31-04, 12:45 AM	Originally posted by Titanic Ego Is anyone else just a little bit befuddled by the ridiculous weakness of the kingdoms of Khorvaire in comparison to the other inhabitants of Eberron? I don't think so, since they can mass produce constructs, have a working-class mage, etc. Everything comes to an end anyway, think how strong the kingdom of giants were, yet they fell. Its not always about strength, but I don't think the Khorvaire nations are too weak.
Zedium 07-31-04, 05:47 AM	I think Khorvaire has more chance of surviving than any FR country, just look at it this way, sure there are a few mayor badguys around (Vol, Daelkyr and the such), they don't walk around on the streets. Why? As was stated before, there are other organisations and individuals trying to stop them. If the blood of Vol would ever make a serious move, they would get beaten to pulp by BOTH the aerenal elves, and the dragons. There are enough factions trying to control these evil factions, with the Church of the Silver flame and the nations being the lesser ones, and the celestials and dragons being the mayor ones. But also the evil factions fight eachother. Also, there seems to be a common theme among the mayor Eberron villains, they are immortal. Vol is undead, she can't die. The Daelkyr are nuts, but still immortal, the Quori are also immortal, the Raksasha...immortal, the Lord of Blades got plenty of time too. In short, all these factions are just waiting for their chance, they got all the time in the world, they don't need to kill everyone, not straight away anyway. You shouldn't expect a threat from these guys straight away, more likely you will get in trouble with their minions. And concerning the nations going at war, they mostly fear whatever caused the Mournland. If you just witnessed the destruction of one of the most powerful nations around in just 1 day, you sure want to make sure what caused it, and if it can happen again. Of course, not everyone fears things equally, but those nations have other troubles. Aundair lacks the forces. Droaam is a poor excuse for a nation with almost no organisation whatsover, and the hobgoblins are more likely to beat eachother than to seriously amass an attack against one of their neighbours. As for vampires, mummies, balors and other intelligent and powerful foes. Sure, a vampire might wrack havoc, but what if Van Helsing or a simular figure comes along? Most powerful undead have a mayor weakness, with a vampire's being the most obvious. A level 1 commoner can even kill a vamp with the right means, and unlike FR, vampires (and other powerful creatures) aren't found around every corner. Powerful outsiders like Balors and Pitfiends usually have more important things on their minds. The planes are big, remember that berk. But what if one of these forces is indeed nuts enough to make their move? The time might be right, seeing all the nations are weakened, and it just takes 1 right action to cause complete chaos. Then it is up to the PCs, the true heroes. It is your job as a player to make sure that Khorvaire survives. (And if the players are going to be evil, it is your job as a DM to create the heroes who face them and the other threats, and to let them get in trouble with other evil factions)
Brianish 07-31-04, 09:50 PM	I think one of the major reasons evil forces haven't taken over Khorvaire is pretty simple. Why? Wage war on an entire continent? I don't care how powerful you are (and most of the really powerful have been checked in some way or another) - that sort of thing is expensive and, realistically, not very practical. It's much more logical to do what Vol and similar evil pricks do, especially if you're immortal - bide your time, and spread your influence covertly. Why would you make a bid for power THAT huge that you don't know you can win, when you've got all the time in the world? Plus, you can do perfectly well for yourself just making small steps. Also it's more interesting.
lugnut71 08-01-04, 12:26 AM	Another point that a lot of people seem to forget. The Blood of Vol isn't evil. Vol herself is. It is better to think of the Emerald Claw as her group then the Blood of Vol.
Darson 08-01-04, 01:36 PM	Give me a vampire...I CAN give you a succesful conquest strategy that will take less than 15 years.... I feel any creature capable of extreme stealth, intelegence, and the magical powers inherent in the vampiric form could, and would, take the continent.....Or atleast Galifar.. The rakasha's have even better stealth and there inate magics are just as useful....Realise, Meteor swarm is useless,,,I could NOT take Galifar with someone capable of throwing that spell an unlimited number of times per day, with each casting being maxamised.....It is not about power...it is about protection; The lack of protections that the 5 nations have. I love this setting. I just think this is one of those game over reality situations. Sometimes you have to throw out what makes sence so you can tell the story the way you want to.
Zedium 08-01-04, 04:39 PM	Might I notice, that this as a pulp world has the tendency of balacing good vs. evil. If a Raksasha would do a bid for power, some two goody shoes paladin (or something simular) is bound to turn up some time soon to kick some fiendish butt. And the task of being this two goody shoes is up the PC.
bitnine 08-01-04, 07:09 PM	I think that folk might well be underestimating the forces that Khorvaire could bring to bear. They don't have a lot of high-level people, but they do make excellent use of their resources in a highly organized fashion. Given the powers of the government and the houses, the way that they utilize crafted items and dragonmarks, they have some of the abilities that one would associate with a more high magic setting. The houses as a whole have the ability to communicate, scry, teleport, heal, organize and outfit a force of characters. Given both this and the expertise in tactics that they must have built during the war, I wouldn't bet on a random monster - even a high level one - destroying the whole of the continent, particularly with force. Under that sort of threat, houses would come together to field the danger. And a well-prepared, -organized, and -equipped force containing even just a dozen or two mid level (5ish) characters, an 8th-9th level leader or two and a messload of 1st-2nd level folks can probably accomplish a heck of a lot. But beyond that, there are a rare few high level forces on the continent, as have been mentioned. From dragons of the chamber watching events in secrecy to the odd high-level wizard to vampires who already have waxing influence over a nation to other things.Give me a vampire...I CAN give you a succesful conquest strategy that will take less than 15 years....And by year 2 he'll realize that not only have a dozen or so supernatural forces have had the same idea, but they've got a head start. ;)A single 5th level wizard with fly, windwall and a wand of fireball can singlehandedly annialate an army of hundreds. There's absolutely nothing they can do to combat him. with him hovering 100' off the ground surrounded by a magical barrier that makes him completely immune to arrows, and nuking everything in sight, you absolutely NEED another spellcaster to defeat him. Well, while without saying that this isn't a symbol of a general problem trend that occur in certain circumstances, this particular one isn't quite up to par. Note that wind wall states:While the wall must be vertical, you can shape it in any continuous path along the ground that you like.So a flying caster cannot use a wind wall spell to protect himself in a direct fashion, though he could try to block some enemies on the ground (by encasing them), who would probably move out of the effect. Now, upon being fireballed, one would expect the force to spread out as they could. The 5d6 damage (reflex 14 for half) deals average 17.5/8.75 damage. (Meaning those shoddy dex 10 con 10 hp 4 1st level warriors will end up having about a 12% natural stabilization survival rate.) A single wand isn't going to kill thousands, it will kill perhaps a hundred at most. And those elite 1st level dex 12 con 12 hp 9 warriors survive quite a bit better. Around a 51% chance of surviving from natural stabilization, with some not even knocked out. Wands of fireball are not exactly death engines. At 11k a pop, they certainly aren't a cost efficient way to inflict casualties. Even more effective is readying an action to move out of the radius of the incoming fireballs. ;) (If you allow that, that is - after all, fireball is odd. Despite being a spell the way it is, it starts as a bead-like projectile that does indeed move through the air, even if it rarely calls for the ranged touch attacks.)
ChrisTheS 08-01-04, 08:13 PM	The existence of Things from Beyond the Ken of Humanity that are capable of tying the world into knots is somewhat central to the pulp genre. The whole point is that the world is, by and large, helpless against these threats... except for a small group (or even one individual) who stands up against the peril, and against all the odds, triumphs. It would probably help if people stopped thinking of Eberron realistically and started thinking of it narratively, specifically as we think of our world as presented in comic books. In the Marvel universe, for instance, there are numerous beings who have the ability to literally crack our planet in half, steal the souls from every living being on Earth, and stop time for the entire universe. Against them we have a statistically small group of people in silly-looking skin-tight spandex costumes, who, despite having powers that are nowhere near the level of aforesaid planetbuster villains, are able to hand the villains their arses (although in the interests of drama many of them are mortally wounded in the process... at least until the next issue). In the context of this example, all the superheroes are player characters. Thus, if we view things like this, it is not at all unreasonable to expect the onus of saving the world to rest entirely on the PCs' shoulders. Likewise, it makes as much sense to wonder why these various forces of evil haven't conquered/destroyed the world yet as it does to ask why Galactus hasn't blown up Earth yet. So, yes, if we were dealing with a real world that did not operate under narrative principles, Khorvaire would be toast. But we aren't; we're dealing with a fictional world that operates under principles established in radio dramas, dime store novels, comic books, and action-adventure movies. The reason why things do or do not happen in the setting is because they would, or would not, make the story better.
bitnine 08-01-04, 08:25 PM	It also probably is sort of helpful that these dark forces beyond mortal ken take such an interest in the mortal world. If some rogue dragon comes to destroy the world, you get half a dozen powerful shadowy figures saying: "Hey, you can't destroy these nations! In the coming centuries, they are key to my dark machinations!"
okaynowa 08-02-04, 09:27 AM	Just a note on the possibility of a vampire using dominate on hundreds (or even dozens) of vulnerable warriors: While the spell description for dominate doesn't say anything to limit the number of people the caster can control at one time, I as DM would limit it to twice the caster's level (or HD) in HD. Also, the spell description specifically states that "Changing your instructions or giving a dominated creature a new command is the equivalent of redirecting a spell, so it is a move action." A mean-spirited DM could rule that the spellcaster would have to take that move action for each subject of the dominate spell. Awfully time-consuming. For every player hack/rule abuse, there is a DM counter hack/house rule.
Titanic Ego 08-02-04, 12:31 PM	We've had some good ideas thrown out here for Khorvaire vs high-CR threat matchups. Does anyone want to stat up a winning Khorvaire strike force for the following battles. Each villain is attempting to pull off some strategic objective (they will not enter into pitched battle unless forced into it): 1 daelkyr, 10 mind flayers, 4 beholders, 50 dolgaunts, 2000 dolgrims. VS A contingent of Gatekeeper initiates, backed up by an armed force from Thrane including magewrights and wizards. The daelkyr is moving rapidly across the world, destroying the dimensional seals on Xoriat. A rakshasa with 10 levels of sorcerer and Cha 24. Some of its spells include scry, mind blank, greater teleport, invisibility (greater,) disintegrate, greater dispel magic, dominate person, stoneskin, resist energy, globe of invulnerability, true seeing, overland flight, fly, cloudkill, fireball, polar ray, windwall, and symbol of death. It wishes to wage a terrorist campaign, under cloak of mind blank, to damage Khorvaire's economy, provoke war, and kill off high level magic users. It will attempt to destroy the lightning rail cars, elemental galleons, and airships. It will try to set granaries and other important buildings on fire, to poison water supplies, and to slaughter the population in isolated villages to impair the food supply. It will launch attacks on wizards and artificers whenever it sees the opportunity to do so safely, using dominated minions, symbols, setting their towns on fire, disintegrate spells from the darkness, and so on. VS The Twelve, the Arcane Congress, the Silver Flame, the Nations, and basically everyone other mortal organization. The key here is locating him and holding him in place long enough to kill and I am not convinced that anyone can stop him from causing ridiculous devastation. 1 balor called from Fernia by Mordain and now wandering freely in Thrane. VS The Silver Flame and the entire armed forces of Thrane. The balor is out to build a force capable of assaulting the capital (using dominate monster) and slaughter the priesthood so that it can destroy the Flame using an Eldritch Machine. Massed wands, true strike, magic weapon spells, missile weapons, dimensional anchor, true seeing, antimagic shells, dispel magic, and 'aid other' will all be useful in actual combat. But if the threats are played smart, how would you drop them using these forces?
archcomponent 08-03-04, 01:26 AM	Originally posted by Titanic Ego 1 daelkyr, 10 mind flayers, 4 beholders, 50 dolgaunts, 2000 dolgrims. VS A contingent of Gatekeeper initiates, backed up by an armed force from Thrane including magewrights and wizards. The daelkyr is moving rapidly across the world, destroying the dimensional seals on Xoriat. Read under the daelkyr entry: The ancient seals placed by the Gatekeeper trap the daelkyr beneath Eberron and keep Xoriat from becoming coterminous. That daelkyr would need to send a force sans himself, as he can't walk Eberron until after the seals are destroyed. Also, why are the forces limited like that? What's stopping those organizations from going to the local Sivis message station and contacting others using his Speaking Stone and calling in other reinforcements by way of House Orien? Why on earth would any house sit by while a daelkyr's army marches across the land?
The White Sorcerer 08-03-04, 03:23 AM	Originally posted by archcomponent Why on earth would any house sit by while a daelkyr's army marches across the land? Yeah. If House Cannith saw the daelkyr's army coming their way, they wouldn't just idly stand there! They'd sell the daelkyr weapons. ;)
Ectoplasmoid 08-03-04, 03:28 AM	The main reason for khorvaire's survival is that there are enough high power forces around to stop any other high power force from being a threat. For instance, let's say that all 6 daelkyr manage to break out of their confinement. As fast as you can say Smite, everyone, and I mean everyone, else, good and evil, is going to band togeether to repel this world-destroying threat. That includes: A continent of dragons, And a continent of psionic Bad@sses, And ANOTHER, continent full of emortal, superpowered elves And an army of rakhashas( who, despite being CE, would help out with the daelkyr problem thanks to the ethos of self-preservation heck, Throw in Oalian and Erlandis d'Vol. Point is, any force in eberron can be ganged up upon powerfully enough to stop it- and it's that delicate balance that keeps khorvaire safe
Alratan 08-03-04, 06:00 AM	The real question of how Khorvaire survives is not how they deal with the very few number of possibly self-countering individual high-level threats, but how they deal with spawn-making undead. For example: the Wight auto-kills any 1st level character it touches, and that character will then rise as another 4 HD wight in between 6 and 24 seconds.The risen wight will be as intelligent as a human, and wiser to boot. Send one of these into a slum in any major city at sunset and unless a remarkable stroke of luck occurs, there'll be thousands by daybreak, and by the end of the day the city will have almost certainly fallen. And that's one CR 2 creature.
lugnut71 08-03-04, 10:45 AM	You do relize thats a problem everywhere. No matter the campagin setting.
ENHenry 08-03-04, 11:23 AM	Originally posted by Alratan For example: the Wight auto-kills any 1st level character it touches, and that character will then rise as another 4 HD wight in between 6 and 24 seconds.The risen wight will be as intelligent as a human, and wiser to boot. Send one of these into a slum in any major city at sunset and unless a remarkable stroke of luck occurs, there'll be thousands by daybreak, and by the end of the day the city will have almost certainly fallen. And that's one CR 2 creature. Two considerations: The wight is CR 3 (not that it matters), and no all people in the town would necessarily be 1st level. Of the dead they don't eat, the wights will likely fight each other for the corpses or the rights to create their spawn. I doubt no one would know about it until daybreak; more likely, somebody will find out within the first dozen victims or so.
Teslacoil1138 08-03-04, 12:32 PM	Even though its not localized to Eberron, the Hunter of the Dead prestige class does the job quite well. Got an undead infestation? Call the Church of the Silver Flame to send one of the Hunters out to your neighborhood and he'll have permanently destroyed your wights, specters, etc. by dinnertime. Vampires, liches, and ghosts are all toast if they're destroyed by a Hunter of the Dead. No coming back for any of them ever again.
Doctor X 08-03-04, 04:10 PM	Originally posted by Titanic Ego We've had some good ideas thrown out here for Khorvaire vs high-CR threat matchups. Does anyone want to stat up a winning Khorvaire strike force for the following battles. Each villain is attempting to pull off some strategic objective (they will not enter into pitched battle unless forced into it): 1 daelkyr, 10 mind flayers, 4 beholders, 50 dolgaunts, 2000 dolgrims. VS A contingent of Gatekeeper initiates, backed up by an armed force from Thrane including magewrights and wizards. The daelkyr is moving rapidly across the world, destroying the dimensional seals on Xoriat. A rakshasa with 10 levels of sorcerer and Cha 24. Some of its spells include scry, mind blank, greater teleport, invisibility (greater,) disintegrate, greater dispel magic, dominate person, stoneskin, resist energy, globe of invulnerability, true seeing, overland flight, fly, cloudkill, fireball, polar ray, windwall, and symbol of death. It wishes to wage a terrorist campaign, under cloak of mind blank, to damage Khorvaire's economy, provoke war, and kill off high level magic users. It will attempt to destroy the lightning rail cars, elemental galleons, and airships. It will try to set granaries and other important buildings on fire, to poison water supplies, and to slaughter the population in isolated villages to impair the food supply. It will launch attacks on wizards and artificers whenever it sees the opportunity to do so safely, using dominated minions, symbols, setting their towns on fire, disintegrate spells from the darkness, and so on. VS The Twelve, the Arcane Congress, the Silver Flame, the Nations, and basically everyone other mortal organization. The key here is locating him and holding him in place long enough to kill and I am not convinced that anyone can stop him from causing ridiculous devastation. 1 balor called from Fernia by Mordain and now wandering freely in Thrane. VS The Silver Flame and the entire armed forces of Thrane. The balor is out to build a force capable of assaulting the capital (using dominate monster) and slaughter the priesthood so that it can destroy the Flame using an Eldritch Machine. Massed wands, true strike, magic weapon spells, missile weapons, dimensional anchor, true seeing, antimagic shells, dispel magic, and 'aid other' will all be useful in actual combat. But if the threats are played smart, how would you drop them using these forces? You make it seem like these scenarios you describe would be in any way common... like Khorvaire has to deal with problems like this every few weeks... It seems to me that occurances like this would be exceedingly rare in Eberron. Now, I'm not saying that they could never happen, because they are all quite possible-- scenarios like these have happened before, and if opposed only by those which you mentioned, they would likely lay waste to all of Khorvaire. But you're assuming that Khorvaire wouldn't have help from the outside. The dragons in Argonessen are quite powerful, yet they have no wish to dominate the world. At the same time, they don't exactly like to help out the other parts of the world, either. They're mostly content to stay in their own land and simply watch how the fates of the "lesser races" pan out. If something ever comes up, however, that is obviously beyond the power of the lesser races to stop, and it's clearly against the Prophecy, or at least a part of the Prophecy that the dragons would rather have take place, then they may intervene. It has happened before-- they have helped prevent the utter destruction of Khorvaire and most of Eberron on multiple occasions. They helped the Giants fight off the Quori, and the Gatekeepers seal away the daelkyr. If one of these massive invasions you speak of showed absolutely no signs of possible defeat by the people of Khorvaire, and what the invasion is working towards is something the dragons won't be particularly fond of, I'm fairly sure the dragons wouldn't simply sit and twiddle their proverbial thumbs. Above all, though, you have to remember that powerful, benevolent NPC's are nearly non-existent now, but that doesn't mean there were never any in the past. Each age in Eberron could have had it's own heroes to save the world, and now, in this age, the PC's are supposed to be the heroes. If they don't do something about the renewed efforts of the Lords of the Dust, or the daelkyr beneath in Khyber, then nobody else will. The dragons are always there just in case something happens in an age without heroes... but otherwise, it all comes down to the player characters and their actions. This is one of my favorite things about the setting so far-- The PC's will never even hear a word about some epic wizard who can kill a whole army with a single spell, that way they never start to think, "Why are we saving the world? Why doesn't that guy do it?"
Alratan 08-04-04, 12:16 PM	The wight is CR 3 (not that it matters), and no all people in the town would necessarily be 1st level. That's why you send the wight in during the night, when most people are asleep, to minimise resistane. This is also why you send people into the slums, because it is unlikely that you would find high level characters there - as they are so rare they would be in high demand, and could rapidly afford to get out. Even so after a while there would be so many wights that even third or fourth level characters would die in the first round of combat. Of the dead they don't eat, the wights will likely fight each other for the corpses or the rights to create their spawn. Wights don't eat the dead, like all normal creatures of the undead types, they can't. Why would they fight, they are as intelligent as humans, noticably wiser, significantly more socially adept, and always lawful, albeit evil. Whilst there is no shortage of prey, I can see no reason they would fight each other. In any case, the first wight can just give general orders to its progeny. I doubt no one would know about it until daybreak; more likely, somebody will find out within the first dozen victims or so. The wights are clever, they would break into houses and convert the inhabitants in their sleep - in many slums breaking and entering are not things the neighbours would care about. When they have reached critical mass, they could roam the streets and run down their victims - remember undead can run and never get tired, so they would be very hard to escape from. In the dark, you probably can't recognise a fresh wight on sight, so you don't get much of a head start if they fail to get you first time. The main reason I brought this up is that it is the counter argument to the massed fire power approach. Once an infection of this kind is started in an urban area, there is no way that this approach can work. When there are a few thousand wights loose in your city, sending in the guards just makes more wights - you need high level characters to deal with it.
lugnut71 08-04-04, 04:02 PM	Once again that is a problem in every high level campaign. Who cares about wights. Take wraiths or specters. There isn't a way you can stop them. They are incorpeal which means they make no sound. They can fly through walls. Frankly it doesn't matter how many high level characters there are they can wipe out a civilization in a few days.
StinkyNutz 08-04-04, 04:19 PM	Originally posted by Alratan That's why you send the wight in during the night, when most people are asleep, to minimise resistane. This is also why you send people into the slums, because it is unlikely that you would find high level characters there - as they are so rare they would be in high demand, and could rapidly afford to get out. Even so after a while there would be so many wights that even third or fourth level characters would die in the first round of combat. Wights don't eat the dead, like all normal creatures of the undead types, they can't. Why would they fight, they are as intelligent as humans, noticably wiser, significantly more socially adept, and always lawful, albeit evil. Whilst there is no shortage of prey, I can see no reason they would fight each other. In any case, the first wight can just give general orders to its progeny. The wights are clever, they would break into houses and convert the inhabitants in their sleep - in many slums breaking and entering are not things the neighbours would care about. When they have reached critical mass, they could roam the streets and run down their victims - remember undead can run and never get tired, so they would be very hard to escape from. In the dark, you probably can't recognise a fresh wight on sight, so you don't get much of a head start if they fail to get you first time. The main reason I brought this up is that it is the counter argument to the massed fire power approach. Once an infection of this kind is started in an urban area, there is no way that this approach can work. When there are a few thousand wights loose in your city, sending in the guards just makes more wights - you need high level characters to deal with it. By this account there then should be at least a small group of 15th level maxed out npc's for every decent sized village, lest the whole world fall. Why would there EVER be any need of the pc's if there are always plenty of higher level npc's to deal with every possible scenario that comes up? And really, how are the 1st level pc's supposed to do anything with a bunch of established high level, magic weapon weilding heroes show up all the time?
okaynowa 08-05-04, 01:33 AM	I favor two (synergistic) reasons for why Khorvaire still stands. The first is the principle of catastrophe, the second is the principle of . . . well, I guess you could call it observation, or Schroedinger's cat. The principle of catastrophe means that all these wights, dragons, daelkyr, what-have-you, are not usual. That is, the chances of their "ocurring" on any given day are the same as a volcano going off in your area: possible, but improbable. Khorvaire stands because those things simply don't occur all the time-- it's a big world, after all, and the big events often happened millenia apart (check the timeline). The second principle gets into metagaming/metaphysics. That is, the factions in Khorvaire may exist in an imbalanced state, but they won't actually begin to "tip over" until there's a DM there to tip it and players to watch it fall. So, Khorvaire survives much like the cat-in-the-box does, until somebody actually checks to see what's going on. Just some thoughts.
Jaremy Rykker 08-05-04, 01:56 AM	I was wondering if, knowing how the magewright works, if it isn't reasonable to think that during the Last War, some of the fighters were taught an aspect of magic with which to arm themselves, similiar to how the Magewrights learn magic. We've evidenced that magic in Eberron is more common because common people have come to understand it, but is it unreasonable to think that given time, the various nations may have trained large forces who specialized in using a spell or two in combat.
bloodwynd 08-05-04, 08:02 AM	I know this thread is a flogged horse by now but tending more to the things survive side of things, I thought I would just throw the following into the Wight situation. This is ofcourse not looking at motive, which is something that is very lacking in most of the scenarios above. Wight, I can understand at least......"kill kill kill" (even though that is a little bit of a simple motivation for something supposedly that is quite intelligent. Anyway, aside from that. Enter Scenario 1: Evil Wight (hensforth EeeeW) creeps into the house and converts some fresh recruits...snigger snigger...but even in the act of doing whatever he is doing to grandmother, she gets out a shriek. Little Timmy upstairs decides (as a slum wise kid) to flee from the danger and goes to Father Bob. Father Bob call on his Diety who empowers him to deal with the situation. The slum is saved. Okay, just because Eberron Gods don't walk around, or may not even exist does not mean that there is not a LOT of divine power around. Divine power, arcane power, dragon power, etc. The noir point earlier was a good one. In any place where there is very dangerous evil (EeeeW), there is generally something that will balance it out. Afterall Eberron has been around for thousands of years and everybody is not a Wight? Sureley if they could have done it they would have? Especially during the war. What better time to stike your enemies while they have thier attention somewhere else. Plus I think that the authors of the campaign setting still have some interesting stuff on the way for us. I personally am already developing my own "Trouble Shooting" NPCs for the Eberron Campaign that I am running.