Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Logos7 10-04-06, 12:59 PM	Hey All, I've seen many (well Grounded) compleints about the D&D economy, particularly in Eberron and i was just wondering how one goes about fixing it, or in particular what THe D&D economy needs in order to be Realistic ( In the sense that it is Non Self Contridictory ie a 10 Pound Iron Pot costing less than what 10 pounds of iron costs) Personally I have a few things i think are necessary. 1> I think that the Economy needs to surport the current Magic Item Costing 2> Create Consistancy Avoid Self Contridiction ( See Above) 3> Allow wealth Distribution that closely follows the Wealth by level guide for NPC's and PC's ( Allowing Exceptions for this) , as well with the NPC Hiring tables 4> ? ( Looking for Suggestions before i go snogging for answere's to this or the new econommic system )
Madhouse 10-04-06, 02:50 PM	While you cite that you've seen numerous complaints regarding the D&D economy (some of them well-grounded), I think the first step in fixing the problem is adequately identifying the problem. Could you please specify what you see as being the major problems with the D&D economy? Your example of the 10 lb. iron pot costing less than 10 lbs. of iron helps, but I need more specific examples (since this one seems rhetorical). I look forward to seeing what you come up with. Cheers!
Identitystolen 10-04-06, 07:41 PM	Personally I'd think a lot of this would require horrendous amount of book keeping. Really, you'd need to remember or write down the cost of raw materials then figure the cost of finished and intermediate products from there. Really, you could explain that the 10lbs iron pot cost less because there was a incorrectly precieved demand and the market is curretly flooded, throw in some haggling and I'm sure you could pull it off. Or you could say, 'Because I, the almighty DM, said so.'
Nived 10-04-06, 08:02 PM	Granted, we're geeks and we argue the smallest infractions in a fictional world. Still if your suspention of disbelief is ruined by the economics of a world with acidic swords, dragons, and people that can make your head explodie with a thought... I think you have a problem. Just let the economics work the way the rules have been set up for.
Logos7 10-04-06, 09:55 PM	I was in fact looking for more clarification about the problem and in general i do just hand wave it all away, but i am a geek with a fair amount of mental prowress and was wondering how one would do it. Another big problem is that commoner's cant afford the simple shacks they live in, there are any numbers of Incredulous examples , but do you really think that the solution is just ennumeration and reset prices? as for everyone who thinks that i am a small mentally challenged child who can't differentiated between wanting to fix something and needing to fix something, thank you for your concern. Loos
Nived 10-04-06, 11:16 PM	Well there are plenty of people in the real world who can't afford the shack they live in or can feed themselves or their kids. Yet there are people who roll around in $100,000 sports cars and live in multi million dollar houses. The concept that needs to change is adventurers as dirty vagabonds... Adventurers are freaking rich, especially the player characters. A guy walking up in magical full plate is rolling up in a stretch hummer... with spinners.
OneWinged4ngel 10-05-06, 01:11 AM	Hey All, I've seen many (well Grounded) compleints about the D&D economy, particularly in Eberron and i was just wondering how one goes about fixing it, or in particular what THe D&D economy needs in order to be Realistic ( In the sense that it is Non Self Contridictory ie a 10 Pound Iron Pot costing less than what 10 pounds of iron costs) Personally I have a few things i think are necessary. 1> I think that the Economy needs to surport the current Magic Item Costing 2> Create Consistancy Avoid Self Contridiction ( See Above) 3> Allow wealth Distribution that closely follows the Wealth by level guide for NPC's and PC's ( Allowing Exceptions for this) , as well with the NPC Hiring tables 4> ? ( Looking for Suggestions before i go snogging for answere's to this or the new econommic system ) To fix the economy you'd probably have to rebuild it *from the ground up* and totally rebalance everything. It's really, *REALLY* screwed up. :rolleyes: Edit: I see you used my oft-used pot example! Yay! :D
Sereno 10-05-06, 09:18 AM	One major problem with the DnD economy is the high cost of spell casting and it's based on what I've called "adventurer economics" ... by which I mean it isn't balanced for reality or believability, it's balanced for game play. The casting of most spells, especially the low-level ones that would be most beneficial to the population in general, cost the spell caster almost nothing (except a spell slot and a pittance for material components). Yet, the cost of even a 0-level spell like Mending is at least 5gp. And, based on the Eberron Demographics Dragonshard, it's more likely 10 to 25gp because the caster is not likely to be just a 1st level wizard/magewright, but an established 2nd-5th caster in anything other than the smallest town. In other words, a spell that costs nothing to cast is more than a years' (or more!) salary for most of the Commoners who live in a town! Here's how I've been approaching it. When a spell caster is working for his own community, he charges a "market rate" ... whatever the townsfolk can afford. When casting spells for strangers and adventurers, he charges the book prices (for game balance). Still not very realistic, but it does enable the proliferation of low-level magic that Eberron's built on.
JayceMD 10-05-06, 09:59 AM	Here's how I've been approaching it. When a spell caster is working for his own community, he charges a "market rate" ... whatever the townsfolk can afford. When casting spells for strangers and adventurers, he charges the book prices (for game balance). Still not very realistic, but it does enable the proliferation of low-level magic that Eberron's built on. Apparently, Sereno, great minds think alike: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0122.html
eehamburg 10-05-06, 11:37 AM	Apparently, Sereno, great minds think alike: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0122.html Truly a great source of inspiration.
eehamburg 10-05-06, 11:39 AM	Still if your suspention of disbelief is ruined by the economics of a world with acidic swords, dragons, and people that can make your head explodie with a thought... I think you have a problem. You mean ... we can't let the real world interfere with our vision of a fictional world??? gasp! :eek: :mymy: :OMG!
OneWinged4ngel 10-05-06, 12:07 PM	Well, for one, the amount of gold that most people earn should probably be greater, especially in urban locations where people just can't be self-sufficient, like Sharn.
eehamburg 10-05-06, 12:12 PM	Well, for one, the amount of gold that most people earn should probably be greater, especially in urban locations where people just can't be self-sufficient like Sharn. Why is Sharn self-sufficient but other urban areas are not?
JayceMD 10-05-06, 01:15 PM	Well, for one, the amount of gold that most people earn should probably be greater, especially in urban locations where people just can't be self-sufficient like Sharn. Except Sharn isn't self-sufficient. Sharn, like any other major metropolitan center, is not capable of producing food sufficient to feed its populace. It has to import that food from somewhere. In fact, Sharn imports significant amounts of food from Karrnath. Strangely enough, though, distance from the food source doesn't have an impact on the cost of that food. Technically, the cost of Karrnathi beef and cheese should be significantly higher in Breland and Aundair than it is in Karrnath (lightning rail transport isn't cheap). I think these are the sorts of things that Logos7 is trying to address.
Melvin the Mediocre 10-05-06, 01:38 PM	Here's how I've been approaching it. When a spell caster is working for his own community, he charges a "market rate" ... whatever the townsfolk can afford. When casting spells for strangers and adventurers, he charges the book prices (for game balance). Still not very realistic, but it does enable the proliferation of low-level magic that Eberron's built on. Actually, I don't think this would be unrealistic at all. Two examples that pop in my head are 1) In Russia they charge Russians and tourists wildly different prices to watch plays and ballets. Or at least they used to some 5 years ago. 2) Japan on the other hand charges less for their TV's in America than they do in Japan. This is to become more competitive in foreign markets while allowing economies of scale to lower their overall manufacturing costs per unit. However they claim that the TV's sold overseas are worth less because they are manufactured by less experienced workers and therefore more prone to defects. ... the cost of Karrnathi beef and cheese should be significantly higher in Breland and Aundair than it is in Karrnath (lightning rail transport isn't cheap). I think these are the sorts of things that Logos7 is trying to address. If you were to keep seperate prices lists for each nation, it would not be that hard to add this level of realism to the game. However, this would probably only be worth it for a high mercantile campaign. Like if it centered around a merchant prince from the principalities or a House Orien caravaner/trader. That is not the sort of campaign I normally associate with Eberron, but it could work.
OneWinged4ngel 10-06-06, 03:13 AM	Except Sharn isn't self-sufficient. Sharn, like any other major metropolitan center, is not capable of producing food sufficient to feed its populace. It has to import that food from somewhere. In fact, Sharn imports significant amounts of food from Karrnath. Strangely enough, though, distance from the food source doesn't have an impact on the cost of that food. Technically, the cost of Karrnathi beef and cheese should be significantly higher in Breland and Aundair than it is in Karrnath (lightning rail transport isn't cheap). I think these are the sorts of things that Logos7 is trying to address. Uhhhm, what? I just SAID Sharn WASN'T self-sufficient, which was why they would need to earn more money to support themselves. Please *READ* the post before responding... because you're disagreeing with something that wasn't said. :mad: Seriously, you would look a lot more intelligent if you did that, instead of shooting someone down for an error they didn't make. That just makes you look silly and is sure to annoy the person you're misinterpreting. Why is Sharn self-sufficient but other urban areas are not? Where the heck did I say Sharn was self-sufficient? I said people CAN'T be self-sufficient there. I'm not sure how this misunderstanding happened, let alone twice. You guys should really pay more attention when reading things! Yeesh... it's like reading up as down and yes as no. Here's the post again: Well, for one, the amount of gold that most people earn should probably be greater, especially in urban locations where people just CAN'T be self-sufficient, like Sharn. Emphasis added so that it's even easier to see! That, of course, means NO ONE EVER SAID SHARN WAS SELF-SUFFICIENT. Sharn is being used as an example of an urban location that cannot really be self-sufficient, NOT as an exceptional urban location that is self-sufficient. Why would I say people would need more money if they were self-sufficient? That doesn't even remotely make sense.
Loki5654 10-06-06, 05:57 AM	I've said it before: "D&D is like pointilism. If you stare at it too closely, all you'll see is dots." The game is Dungeons & Dragons. Not Markets & Moneylenders. You're supposed to be in it for the adventure, not the accounting.
Euangelion 10-06-06, 06:55 AM	Except Sharn isn't self-sufficient. Sharn, like any other major metropolitan center, is not capable of producing food sufficient to feed its populace. It has to import that food from somewhere. In fact, Sharn imports significant amounts of food from Karrnath. Strangely enough, though, distance from the food source doesn't have an impact on the cost of that food. Technically, the cost of Karrnathi beef and cheese should be significantly higher in Breland and Aundair than it is in Karrnath (lightning rail transport isn't cheap). I think these are the sorts of things that Logos7 is trying to address. Actually, Karrnath can't support itself food-wise either. It imports a significant amount of food from the eastern farmers of the Eldeen Reaches, as does Sharn. Karrnath exports certain specialty items, at high profits, in order to pay for the basic grains that the nation needs but can no longer grow themselves. There's some discussion on this in both the ECS and S:CoT, but I'm too lazy to look it up now.
eehamburg 10-06-06, 10:00 AM	Where the heck did I say Sharn was self-sufficient? I said people CAN'T be self-sufficient there. Well, for one, the amount of gold that most people earn should probably be greater, especially in urban locations where people just can't be self-sufficient, like Sharn. Now, you may not have meant that they were self-sufficient, but the way that many read this, myself included, was that you said that Sharn was self-sufficient. But, now knowing that you meant differently, I now read it differently and I now read it as you intended it. So apologies for the misinterpretation.
DarkWarriorKarg 10-06-06, 12:15 PM	Moral of the story: Commas are important, folks! They can change a sentence's entire meaning when you miss noticing one...
Just another user 10-06-06, 05:45 PM	The only way to fix D&D economy without a massive work of rewriting is handwaving and common sense, and that can't be found in sourcebooks.
Tyryt 10-06-06, 06:28 PM	Given: The merchant has a connection with a crafter who can make iron pots. Said merchant is also 'in' with the miners who mine the iron ore. Merchant buys *ALL* ore available from the miners for less than individuals might be willing to pay, but only if they deal exclusively with him. Miners don't then have to worry about excess supply, waiting for people to come to them, etc. Merchant gives some iron to craftsman to make the pot, paying a small salery, then puts it up for sale. While refined iron (as opposed to ore) is possible to find on the market, it's a pretty rare thing (relatively), and hence the price is higher when looking to get some. Pots, on the other hand, are turned out two a day at the local smithy. Result: finished product can be bought for cheaper than raw materials. ------- That's not 'fantasy economics', that's the way the real world works too, especially in a culture/society that doesn't have so many anti-monopoly laws and so on. Heck, take the I-pod for example. It actually costs more to make an I-Pod than what Apple makes by selling them. They loose money with each one sold. Still, the I-Pods end up making them millions. In short... the ecnomics do actually make sense, when you look at it with a broader view of ecnomics and money-theory.
OneWinged4ngel 10-06-06, 06:50 PM	In short... the ecnomics do actually make sense, when you look at it with a broader view of ecnomics and money-theory. No they don't, that's just a rationalization, albeit a good one.
Tyryt 10-06-06, 07:00 PM	Rationalization? Okay: Hamburger = ~$.49 at your local McDs Price of a tomato, pickles, sugar, flour, butter, ground beef, mustard seed, paper to wrap it, etc = Much more, even if you are only buying the ammounts needed to make a single burger, not to mention the time invested in making that mustard and tomato sauce. Raw materials for low/no skill goods, for the 'consumer' almost ALWAYS cost more than finished products. Now, if you are cutting corners and going to the supplier/wholesaler, that's an entirely different discussion. When you start getting into things that take lots of skill/proficiency to make, well, then it doesn't really matter how much the raw materials cost, since it's nearly impossible to replicate without buying it. An example of this Real World, would be a computer. All told, there's probably less than 24$ worth of material in the average computer for raw parts. But there is no way that a person could make a functional computer if they were given those materials. Finished goods of low/no skill value MUST be cheaper than the raw materials, or else no one would buy them. That's economics. Edit: Also the whole premise for this argmument is flawed. Why? Because you are comparing two finished products, and complaining that one is cheaper than the other. 10lbs of iron (ie: ten iron ingots) costs more than a 10lbs iron pot. So? Both are 'finished products. Now, if ore containing 10lbs of iron cost more than a 10lbs iron pot, then it *might* be a valid argument, as it is, that's like complaining that 250lbs of meat costs more than a horse.
Giarc 10-06-06, 07:08 PM	Maybe I missed something, but why would Sharn need to import food from Karrnath and the Eldeen Reaches when there is an incredible amount of arable land in Breland? I could see specialty shops having those goods, but they wouldn't be in the larder of the commoners of Sharn. Heck, the land between Sharn and Wroat would be filled with prosperous farms feeding the two major cities of Breland.
Giarc 10-06-06, 07:17 PM	Finished goods of low/no skill value MUST be cheaper than the raw materials, or else no one would buy them. That's economics. You're not taking into account time. People will pay a little extra if it saves them the time to make it themselves. Look at fast food.
Tyryt 10-06-06, 07:27 PM	Most fast food is actually cheaper than what you could buy the parts for (at your local store, not big warehouse stores and such). And for the same reason. The restaraunt is buying much much more than you and can pay a cheaper per unit price (even after factoring in the labor) than you. The restaraunt, in addition, doesn't gennerally need to worry about charging enough to cover unsold stock like a store does, while the store has all the same labor and transportation costs that the restaraunt does, though gennerally more for the larger variety and space required. Again, prices in the books represent what a player could find 'on the market', not traveling around to suppliers, buying in bulk, and so on, and are priced in a way that do make sense. If you don't feel that way, then make the stuff cheaper, it's your game. However, don't try to say that the prices don't make any sense without understanding the wide world of economics.
OneWinged4ngel 10-06-06, 07:36 PM	Rationalization? Okay: Hamburger = ~$.49 at your local McDs Price of a tomato, pickles, sugar, flour, butter, ground beef, mustard seed, paper to wrap it, etc = Much more, even if you are only buying the ammounts needed to make a single burger, not to mention the time invested in making that mustard and tomato sauce. Raw materials for low/no skill goods, for the 'consumer' almost ALWAYS cost more than finished products. Now, if you are cutting corners and going to the supplier/wholesaler, that's an entirely different discussion. When you start getting into things that take lots of skill/proficiency to make, well, then it doesn't really matter how much the raw materials cost, since it's nearly impossible to replicate without buying it. An example of this Real World, would be a computer. All told, there's probably less than 24$ worth of material in the average computer for raw parts. But there is no way that a person could make a functional computer if they were given those materials. Finished goods of low/no skill value MUST be cheaper than the raw materials, or else no one would buy them. That's economics. Edit: Also the whole premise for this argmument is flawed. Why? Because you are comparing two finished products, and complaining that one is cheaper than the other. 10lbs of iron (ie: ten iron ingots) costs more than a 10lbs iron pot. So? Both are 'finished products. Now, if ore containing 10lbs of iron cost more than a 10lbs iron pot, then it *might* be a valid argument, as it is, that's like complaining that 250lbs of meat costs more than a horse. The thing is, that's not the summation of the problems of the D&D economy. Hence, it's not a complete solution, as I've said. It's just a rationalization you can use for why a 10 pound iron pot costs less than half as much iron. There are many more problems than that. I should have to explain that.
Rauric 10-06-06, 07:37 PM	"Fixing" the economy would interefere with most gamers fun. It doesn't really need to make too much sense for most gamers, they have the real world and need a place to go so RP a little and then bash something in a bit.
Melvin the Mediocre 10-06-06, 09:45 PM	Most fast food is actually cheaper than what you could buy the parts for at your local store Just to stir the pot (so to speak) the big problem with the hamburger analagy is that you can not take the hamburger and use it to make meatloaf. A pot you can melt down to make an iron fence. Because an iron pot is nearly a perfect substiture for iron ingots, if you can buy pots for less than iron, the price of iron will fall to below the cost of pots (or the cost of pots will rise to above the cost of iron.) Premade hamburgers are not perfect substitures for fresh ingredients so will have a much lesser effect on prices of things like ground beef. So if this issue somehow managed to be a problem in my campaign, what would I do? Claim that the pot is made from low grade iron and that the cost of iron refers to weapons grade plutonium. I mean iron.
Euangelion 10-06-06, 10:33 PM	Maybe I missed something, but why would Sharn need to import food from Karrnath and the Eldeen Reaches when there is an incredible amount of arable land in Breland? I could see specialty shops having those goods, but they wouldn't be in the larder of the commoners of Sharn. Heck, the land between Sharn and Wroat would be filled with prosperous farms feeding the two major cities of Breland. First of all, Sharn probably wouldn't necessarily need to import any food from outside Breland, but it has been mentioned that the Eldeen Reaches grows far more food than its relatively small population needs. That much surplus means that prices are lower, and the quality of the food is topnotch, thanks to the Wardens (and the Raincallers of House Lyrandar). In the past 50+ years of living under the protection and guidance of Oalian and the Wardens, I bet they've gotten closer to their land than ever before. Second, a fair area of Breland saw action during the Last War. These engagements are not good for the land, and food production must still be suffering. That's not to say that all the land has been devestated, but enough probably has to cause a decrease in food production. Worse has been the number of strapping young farm boys and girls who left the homestead to go fight in the Last War and never came back. These two factors, which compounded with Breland's large population makes the importing of some food desirable. But no nation's (well, except Cyre's!) food production suffered as much as Karrnath's, mainly due to the loss of the labor pool, to the point of causing a famine. It will be a long time before Karnnath's population rebounds to the point where they could grow their own food. When Karrnath exports any food at all, it's to make a large profit so that they can afford to import basic foodstuffs from the most productive farms in all of Khorvaire, those of the eastern Eldeen Reaches. To sum up, Eldeen food is both cheap and plentiful, while Breland's food production is still realing from damage to farms and the loss of potential farm workers during the Last War. Sharn might be able to buy all their food from Brelish sources, but it would probably be more expensive, and of lower quality, than that grown in the Eldeen Reaches.
Edymnion 10-07-06, 12:01 AM	I personally look at it like this. The economy is balanced for the PCs, and thats all that matters. Commoners don't need to worry about money, because I the DM say they don't need to. If it really bothers you, just say that the prices as listed are the "PC Prices" that have been jacked up to scam the adventurers with their thousands of gold coins. You know, like the fast food places inside of disney world that will try to sell you a $12 hamburger you could get at McDonald's in Texas for 99 cents. Generally though, its a balancing factor for the PCs, and for that purpose it works just fine. There's no reason to really add complexity in it just so the NPCs can get their ledgers to balance.
tuffn00gies 10-07-06, 01:54 PM	Another big problem is that commoner's cant afford the simple shacks they live in, there are any numbers of Incredulous examples , but do you really think that the solution is just ennumeration and reset prices? Loos Nor can they afford the clothes on their backs or the food they eat. There is no housing market like there is today, even in Eberron. Most people, commoner or high born, either build their own (which would make shacks practically free if they did the work themselves) or inherited them. The same is true for their clothes. As for the iron pot, I always assumed (maybe a hold-over from my 1E and 2E days) that the 10 lbs is an inflated number to take into account the pots' bulkiness since we're concerned with encumbrance. If it's really a problem, either change the weight of the pot or the cost or both. The equipment list is supposed to be an abstraction of the market anyway. Of course not every pot weighs 10 lbs and costs 5 sp. Most people in the average D&D setting don't use actual coin for purchases anyway. As far as it goes, it serves it's purpose.
tuffn00gies 10-07-06, 02:02 PM	To fix the economy you'd probably have to rebuild it *from the ground up* and totally rebalance everything. It's really, *REALLY* screwed up. :rolleyes: Possibly, but if this is what your game's about (or your life) I pity you and your players. :) Normally, the economy in the typical D&D game chugs along quietly in the background, unless it's needed as a plot device. It could be made a lot more realistic, sure. But do you really think it's necessary for the average DM to need a degree in economics to DM? If they don't have one, their economy's going to get out of whack by the time the characters are second level and have as much $$ as the local lord, let alone 5th level and have more than the kingdom's military budget.
mearrin69 10-07-06, 11:34 PM	I fail to understand this discussion. The *biggest* problem with D&D's economy is that PCs haul in and spend hundreds of gold pieces from first level and the numbers just get more obscene from there. It's awfully hard to model a "realistic" economy that functions in two layers, with a common laborer getting 1 SP a day at the bottom and adventurers rolling into town looking for 100k GP magic items at the top. Problem is, if you fix what's *really* broken then you're going to spoil the fun of the game. It's not fun defeating a CR10 bad guy and his minions when all you get is 35 SP and a couple of coppers. For my own purposes I'm happy to ignore the discrepancies - just like I ignore the improbablilities of tanglefoot bags, potions of cure moderate wounds, and ententacled creatures that want to eat my wizard's brains. All IMHO, of course. :) M
Korhal_IV 10-08-06, 12:02 AM	Granted, we're geeks and we argue the smallest infractions in a fictional world. Still if your suspention of disbelief is ruined by the economics of a world with acidic swords, dragons, and people that can make your head explodie with a thought... I think you have a problem. Just let the economics work the way the rules have been set up for. The word you're looking for is "versimilitude", or internal consistency. It is, to some degree, what Eberron is all about. In Eberron, Keith Baker put some thought into what a society that has magic would look like - how to make magic and medieval society internally consistent, how to make monsters and civilizations internally consistent, how to rationalize very intelligent monsters who were still monsters, etc. One of the chief complaints we Eber-loonies levvy against Forgotten Realms is that it's just completely impossible to expect new heroes to rise when the old heroes are so plentiful they could probably take the time to squash the gophers in Mr. McCreedy's yard and then aerate the church lawn. It's not that it's "unrealistic", because you're right, very little is realistic about any D&D world. But it breaks versimilitude, and breaking verisimilitude is the worst thing that can happen to a story. It's the source of most complaints.
OneWinged4ngel 10-08-06, 02:35 PM	To fix the economy you'd probably have to rebuild it *from the ground up* and totally rebalance everything. It's really, *REALLY* screwed up. Possibly, but if this is what your game's about (or your life) I pity you and your players. :) Normally, the economy in the typical D&D game chugs along quietly in the background, unless it's needed as a plot device. It could be made a lot more realistic, sure. But do you really think it's necessary for the average DM to need a degree in economics to DM? If they don't have one, their economy's going to get out of whack by the time the characters are second level and have as much $$ as the local lord, let alone 5th level and have more than the kingdom's military budget. Huh? I just said that the economy is seriously broken to a point you'd need to totally redo it for it to make sense; there's no quick and easy way to do it. I never said I was *going* to redo it. :rolleyes: It's not what my game's about, let alone my *life*. I haven't even done so much as wave a hand at repricing anything. And I find this post rather offensive, "pitying" me and my players for some situation you just made up out of whole cloth. You make an ass out of u and me when you assume, especially when it's wild, crazy assumptions that don't follow at all from what was posted.
tuffn00gies 10-09-06, 08:40 AM	Huh? I just said that the economy is seriously broken to a point you'd need to totally redo it for it to make sense; there's no quick and easy way to do it. I never said I was *going* to redo it. :rolleyes: It's not what my game's about, let alone my *life*. I haven't even done so much as wave a hand at repricing anything. And I find this post rather offensive offensive, "pitying" me and my players for some situation you just made up out of whole cloth. You make an ass out of u and me when you assume, especially when it's wild, crazy assumptions that don't follow at all from what was posted. Guess you didn't see the :) huh? Take a chill pill. I wasn't assuming that you were going to redo it. I have a little more respect for you than that. I was just saying that anyone who wanted to do that needed to get a life since it wouldn't add that much more fun to the game in the end. Sorry it came out otherwise.
OneWinged4ngel 10-09-06, 11:33 AM	Guess you didn't see the :) huh? Take a chill pill. I wasn't assuming that you were going to redo it. I have a little more respect for you than that. I was just saying that anyone who wanted to do that needed to get a life since it wouldn't add that much more fun to the game in the end. Sorry it came out otherwise. Ooooooh, there's a :) there! This changes *everything*! :embarrass
Logos7 10-09-06, 03:59 PM	It never fails to amaze me that people cannot comprehend other's sometimes, i apparently am an object of pity and amazement that i even thought of more than rationalizing and handwaving the problems of the DnD economy as i have had a couple of dozen ppeople tell me/ I guess i should have been an object of pity an amazement when i thought i might have gotten a coherant discussion out of the Wiz Board's. To those of you who were helpful thanks for your time. Logos
Logos7 10-09-06, 04:09 PM	It never fails to amaze me that people cannot comprehend other's sometimes, i apparently am an object of pity and amazement that i even thought of more than rationalizing and handwaving the problems of the DnD economy as i have had a couple of dozen ppeople tell me/ I guess i should have been an object of pity an amazement when i thought i might have gotten a coherant discussion out of the Wiz Board's. To those of you who were helpful thanks for your time. Logos
OneWinged4ngel 10-09-06, 04:10 PM	I get ya. I was kinda frustrated with the misunderstandings myself (and even made one, apparently) as you could see... but that's enough of that! BACK ON TOPIC! TIME TO SHAPE UP THIS THREAD AND CONTRIBUTE MEANINGFULLY, PEOPLE! :cheer: Well, I'll help get us back on track some for coherent discussion, then :) Well, for the lesser things you could just rearrange the cost of items to make a bit more sense, like making an item cost more than... half that item. Further, you should probably increase the money that peasants and such have available to them. Eberron is somewhat more advanced than many D&D settings, and there's not so much in the way of "serfs." Further, people should probably start to be able to buy things, rather than being almost wholly self-sufficient. This especially goes for urban environments, where that cannot be the case. If people make 1sp a day or week, then they will starve to death unless they make their own food. If you're going to pay attention to fixing up the economy, the easiest thing to do is to boost the lower levels... give everyone more money. Reprice some items. The first thing I'd do is reprice paper, so that people can logically have things like newspapers sell for less than several platinum! In my house rules thread, I've already done this. Sure, paper might have a reason to be more expensive in other settings, but clearly if there's newspapers and such then a more affordable and efficient method of paper production must have become available, and paper is probably cheaper than parchment by now. Now then, there's some other problems, like a single gp being equivelent to sometehing like 170 dollars worth of gold considering it's 1/50th of a pound. We either have to conclude that gold is devalued for some reason (Use as wealth, abundance of the element, etc) or that it's a heckuva lot more money than we all know it is in the D&D setting. A +2 sword costs more than six hundred pounds of gold! If you're looking for something higher, you'd better empty Fort Knox, eh? Back to your first post, we see: 1> I think that the Economy needs to surport the current Magic Item Costing 2> Create Consistancy Avoid Self Contridiction ( See Above) 3> Allow wealth Distribution that closely follows the Wealth by level guide for NPC's and PC's ( Allowing Exceptions for this) , as well with the NPC Hiring tables I think you should probably change out the values for NPC hiring tables some, to reflect that people have enough money to, uhm, live off of. I know that doesn't fit with 3, but it's something you'd probably have to do to create some value of consistency. Now then, you may want to make coins lighter, and effectively less valuable... and say that Khorvaire has a better economy than many other D&D settings because of the mercantile houses and various other factors. The average working class person should be able to afford the occasional first level spell if he saves up for a while. We want to have the low, wide magic here, but with the current NPC wealth system people can save up for a year to buy a decent shirt. Or food for a month. This helps keep the magic item costing a bit more in line, though higher level magic items still are worth more than castles. This is okay, because when you're level 10 you should be totally awesome and have such amazing things. What we don't want is people going "Wow, a whole gold piece!" when you just got 100 of them off some goblin for selling his light armor. To create consistency and avoid self contradiction, we'd have to reprice a few of the lesser items. Some magic items could definitely use a price adjustment as well, since some are absolutely absurd (Can anyone say "Dust of Appearance"?) Another good change would be to fix up Profession and Crafting. However, for that I am looking forward to K's Tome of Gears, as he's said he'd come up with a fix. That help, Logos? :D
D1Tremere 10-10-06, 02:52 AM	In a world where people can teleport, cast wish and take huge amounts of harm with not so much as a grunt it is un-realistic to try and create a realistic economy. In the real world, the science of economics is a very fragile thing, capible of being thrown into collapse with the landing of rocks from space and the death of a single person. In a game world where the rules are made for fantasy adventure, there are WAY too meny random variables to price or control the market, which would be in near constent flux. Instead just remember that the things that make it imposible are the same things that make the game fun to actually play.
Korhal_IV 10-10-06, 08:21 PM	In a world where people can teleport, cast wish and take huge amounts of harm with not so much as a grunt it is un-realistic to try and create a realistic economy. V-E-R-I-S-I-M-I-L-I-T-U-D-E. I don't even really want to fix the problem - I just want people to acknowledge that there IS a problem. :rolleyes:
OneWinged4ngel 10-10-06, 09:06 PM	In a world where people can teleport, cast wish and take huge amounts of harm with not so much as a grunt it is un-realistic to try and create a realistic economy. In the real world, the science of economics is a very fragile thing, capible of being thrown into collapse with the landing of rocks from space and the death of a single person. In a game world where the rules are made for fantasy adventure, there are WAY too meny random variables to price or control the market, which would be in near constent flux. Instead just remember that the things that make it imposible are the same things that make the game fun to actually play. You do realize, of course, that your comparison is... well, contrary to your point? You say that fantasy setting economics would be too unreliable, but then you say just how unreliable the real world economy is. So that one guy who could cast Teleport and Wish dies. Not many other people can do that. It makes a difference. Anyways, there's nothing preventing Eberron from having an economy, that can make sense within its own terms. This is what verisimilitude is all about. Magic may not be realistic, but it can make sense within the terms of the setting.
Edymnion 10-11-06, 06:22 PM	with a common laborer getting 1 SP a day at the bottom and adventurers rolling into town looking for 100k GP magic items at the top.The 1 sp a day figure is for completely unskilled labor, aka ditch diggers. Every human commoner of average intelligence is going to have 5 skillpoints and a feat to work with, which they can easily spend on Profession (Farmer), and be making decent money. Especially when you consider that these guys aren't by themselves doing it, but most often married with a half dozen kids, each of which is going to have at least a rank or two in Profession (Farmer) that use Aid Other to help daddy run the farm. Daddy with 4 ranks in Profession (Farmer) and Skill Focus (Farmer), Mommy with 2 ranks in Profession (Farmer) (leaving the rest for craft skills to make clothes with), two or three kids with a rank or two in Profession (Farmer), and gee, those poor commoners are raking in plenty of money. But really, how is this differant than in real life? Some illegal immigrant that is having to work as a day laborer making a few dollars a day compared to the movie/sports stars that make tens of millions of dollars a year. If you make enough money to feed yourself, you're richer than most people on our planet right now, so I think the disparity matches up with the real world fairly well.
Edymnion 10-11-06, 07:55 PM	Okay, I just wrote up an entire article on why the D&D economy is just fine the way it is, along with a complete breakdown that shows how an average family of commoners, using the current economy rules, not only makes more than enough money to feed themselves, but ends up with upwards of 200 gp in savings every year. Keep an eye on Regdar's for when it gets approved.
Euangelion 10-11-06, 10:20 PM	Very cool. That'll be interesting to look at.
Neofish 10-12-06, 03:22 AM	Okay, I just wrote up an entire article on why the D&D economy is just fine the way it is, along with a complete breakdown that shows how an average family of commoners, using the current economy rules, not only makes more than enough money to feed themselves, but ends up with upwards of 200 gp in savings every year. Keep an eye on Regdar's for when it gets approved. Heck ya Edy. Look foward to reading it. Also, I remember reading somewhere in the DMG or someplace that a Farmer makes a single Profession check every season or 2 seasons (ala, every 3 or 6 months) and multiplies the result by 10 or something, this is to represent the fact that the Farmer only gets paid after he harvests and sells his crops. Am I makin this up or is it actually somewhere, I have so many books nowadays it's hard to remember where every tidbit is. Edit- Also, most people wouldnt deal in actual coinage anyway, they would barter with trade goods and livestock, I bet most towns would even actual have very many coins handy to pay adventurers in, most likely they'd recieve a letter of credit or trade goods. This is somethign I use is most cities that support a Kundarak bank, people just uses orders of credit (my rogue adventurer carrries a few "fiddies" [ 50gp marks of credit] around in his right shoe heel, just in case). I think it helps keep down the crazy ammount of wealth that adventurers have (gold doesnt have to be growing off trees to explain the ammount of gold coins in the game).
Edymnion 10-12-06, 01:17 PM	Also, I remember reading somewhere in the DMG or someplace that a Farmer makes a single Profession check every season or 2 seasons (ala, every 3 or 6 months) and multiplies the result by 10 or something, this is to represent the fact that the Farmer only gets paid after he harvests and sells his crops.I don't recall seeing it, while Profession (Farmer) is specifically listed as an example in the PHB with no extra mentions of anything. But what you're talking about is more of a modern crop rotation kind of thing. Medieval farming was more akin to modern gardens where you grew a little bit of everything all year round. Anyway, realism aside, I used the rules for Profession as listed in the PHB for farming, which is a weekly check. Its no good to go defending that the system in the book works when you don't actually use the system in the book. ;) But the real point of me using that system would be that you could substitute farming for other kinds of work just as easily. Fishing, for example, or clerical work in a city, being a thatcher or blacksmith, etc. Edit- Also, most people wouldnt deal in actual coinage anyway, they would barter with trade goods and livestock, I bet most towns would even actual have very many coins handy to pay adventurers in, most likely they'd recieve a letter of credit or trade goods.I hit on that, actually. After doing up all the monitary values, I made sure to mention that most of it would not be in actual coins. As in, they grow X gp worth of crops, and eat Y gp of it themselves.I think it helps keep down the crazy ammount of wealth that adventurers have (gold doesnt have to be growing off trees to explain the ammount of gold coins in the game).Exactly. I would expect most of the payments in Eberron to be done via letters of credit. Nobody actually carries a thousand gold in a pouch in Eberron, they have a letter of credit. I mean, a thousand gold coins is HEAVY! Thats 20 pounds of metal you gotta lug around.
Euangelion 10-12-06, 03:25 PM	I hit on that, actually. After doing up all the monitary values, I made sure to mention that most of it would not be in actual coins. As in, they grow X gp worth of crops, and eat Y gp of it themselves.Exactly. I would expect most of the payments in Eberron to be done via letters of credit. Nobody actually carries a thousand gold in a pouch in Eberron, they have a letter of credit. I mean, a thousand gold coins is HEAVY! Thats 20 pounds of metal you gotta lug around. The problem for the farmer comes when the buyer hands them a Kundarak letter of credit (which is the only entity that issues letters of credit, IIRC). Where are they going to redeem that letter of credit? Again IIRC, Kundarak banks are not found in the size community that most farmers have ready access to, which means they'll still end up lugging the coins back to their farm. Then again, I suppose they could keep an account at the Kundarak bank, as long as it isn't too expensive to be worth it, and then the funds would be available where they needed them the most, where they would be spending the money on equipment and other supplies. The effect on how communities form and to which size they grow would be an interesting one to consider. It also might stimulate the organization of groups of farmers who pool their produce together and then 2 or more farmers acting as brokers (the farmers get together, check their character sheets, and then select the farmers with the highest Cha scores, right? ;) ) take the produce to market and sell it on behalf of all the others. There's an adventure hook for ya, the farmers of a village ask the party to track down their brokers who seemingly ran off with all their money! Lot's of food for thought. :rimshot:
Edymnion 10-12-06, 05:16 PM	Don't forget that travelling traders would be a big source of coinage, as well as outside news, for these sorts of villiages. They would also usually be situated along roads (of varying traffic), meaning they would have inns/taverns which would generate coin. The inn owners would then buy foodstuffs, ale, etc from the surrounding farms with coin, which would then either go back to the inn/tavern, or go to travelling traders (which would then likely turn around and spend it in the villiage again). Another option would be to have House Kundarak send out a represenative to those villiages large enough to have need of them (aka, the ones producing enough coinage to need to store it). The bank dwarf and a pair of deneiths come into town once a month to do transactions before returning to a larger city that is home to a permanent bank. Its also possible, especially in Eberron, for there to be a local form of credit notes, that trade on the good name of the mayor or a major trader as being valid. They wouldn't work anywhere but within that villiage, but it would be an easy to make and use form of money that wouldn't depend on coinage or foreign letters of credit.
Euangelion 10-12-06, 06:26 PM	I was thinking more along the lines of settlements off the main travel routes, the ones that don't need an inn because a stranger hasn't come through in months. But those are good points.
Edymnion 10-12-06, 06:52 PM	I was thinking more along the lines of settlements off the main travel routes, the ones that don't need an inn because a stranger hasn't come through in months. But those are good points.Well, those would be special cases, IMO. Frontier towns that have to be entirely self reliant, which would have a higher chance of producing PC classed individuals, again IMO. My idea of your average commoner is going to be the nameless thousands that grow the food that supports Sharn's population, or hawks meat pies on city street corners, or any of the other "normal" jobs.
Neofish 10-13-06, 02:28 AM	Yeah Edy, I guess the weekly thing for Farmers was just a strange false memory or something. Plus, I agree that the weekly check for farmers works if you consider its not actually monetary gain, but more along the lines of produces assits such as home grown food and hand made cloths, or perhaps traded livestock. As for the problem with limited coinage within small villiages, I suggest you check out this article Here. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=471897) That dude came up with a great explaination as to how a frontier economy could be handled. Basically, it breaks down like this. The town head honcho keeps a log book that keeps records of all the towns wages and such, allocating credits that may be used within the town. So a miner that works in the mines gets to make his weeky profession check, but would earn his wage in "town credit" rather than actual gp. As for outside goods and traders, the head honcho would appraise the goods and estimate and assign credit values to them so that the townsfolk could use the towns coinage to buy outside goods, or something like that. That article explains it far better than I can. EDIT- Okay, found the relavent text I was looking for, I still suggest you check out the article, jsut because it is such an excellent read. But here goes. In Smelt, there is some coin, but most transactions take the form of exchaning smelt credits in the Smelter's logbook. Thus, when the fisherman wants to obtain some meat for the winter, he might give 80 credits of smelt to the Smelter for 20 lbs of smelt jerky and have another 50 credits of smelt written over to a trapper for 15 lbs of smoked Elk. When the tradeships arrive to collect smelt, they bring little coin, but mainly trade goods. The people of Smelt will go through the merchant's goods, select what they want, and haggle the number of smelt credits those goods are worth. Then, they go an make the transfer in the logbook, and once the merchant has unloaded all of the goods he can, he cashes in his credits with the Smelter for pots of ground Smelt (which he then sells for profit to larger vessels, who carry it to the southern lands to be sold for even more profit). The Smelt is a local fish and the reason the village was formed. So anyway, basically, we have an entire economy based around a single product, in this case, smelt. Also, we have an honor system in the form of credits. This is the primary way I see small towns functioning. Most likely, people do one another favors and just trade freely in order to survive. When adventurers and traders and merchants roll in, the village just does what it can to provide and accomodate for its guests. I doubt that most towns would accept lines of credit (maybe they need something more "real" like coin or trade goods), but i'm sure most cities would accept them. Also, i'll look up what type of government Eberron is based around. I know they have monarchs ruling nations. But is it also a Feudal-esque system? Meaning nobles appointed by the sovreigns to lord over certain patchs of land? If so, this means that villages and small thropes may accept lines of credit, because they may be able to redeem their value from the local lord (whom in turn redeems them from House Kundarak).
Bobsq2 10-23-06, 07:42 PM	Ok, I think there's a bit more to this than just justifiying how the low level commoners of the world function. There's the matter of how the Adventurers budget works in to this whole situation. One would think that if a bunch of adventurers that have just slain a dragon walk into a town, the influx of the massive amount of gold they would spend would do so much as far as positive or negative flux on the community that it could totally change the economic balance of the city Also, where does the magic shopkeeper fit into this? the image of the magic shop is just another place that can be gone to to buy things, like your grocer, or butcher, or smithy. If there's someone in a town who can manage to make and sell just one +1 weapon every month, they are making a yearly profit that should rival the average noble, or more.
Edymnion 10-24-06, 01:11 AM	One would think that if a bunch of adventurers that have just slain a dragon walk into a town, the influx of the massive amount of gold they would spend would do so much as far as positive or negative flux on the community that it could totally change the economic balance of the cityOf course. But then, most PCs I've seen don't go throwing money around wastefully, so any size town that would actually allow the PCs to drop a couple thousand gp is also going to be large enough to absorb the blow to the economy. I mean, sure, you're in a fishing villiage. There's only so many horse shoes and hatchets you can buy before there just isn't anything left to buy, and your gold is worthless. Also, where does the magic shopkeeper fit into this? the image of the magic shop is just another place that can be gone to to buy things, like your grocer, or butcher, or smithy. If there's someone in a town who can manage to make and sell just one +1 weapon every month, they are making a yearly profit that should rival the average noble, or more.For one, just because you can buy a magic item does not necissarily mean there is a magic item shop. Private collections belonging to wealthy patrons, heirlooms of families that have hit hard times, there are numerous ways to explain why someone would part with a magical item for gold, especially in Eberron where magic is pretty commonplace. As for the wages thing, you forget one other important factor. It still costs half as much as you can sell it for just to make it in the first place. Someone making a suit of +1 armor is only going to make ~500 gp off it, and we already know that your average commoner is capable of making 200 gp a year. But the trick there is that you have to be 5th/6th level before you can even take Craft Arms and Armor, meaning that in Eberron terms you're already going to be pretty well known for being an expert crafter of magical items, have a pretty high character wealth to begin with, and would all around be one of the greatest craftsmen around. Of course you're going to be making more money than Joe the Dirt Farmer.
Neofish 10-24-06, 11:52 AM	BTW- I did find out that Eberron is based upon a feudal monarchy, meaning for every (lets say) 3 villages, you have a local lord in charge of their defense and well being, aswell as taxation and conscriptions in times of war (I knew there was a reason there were so many ir's in the world, they are lords, well, at least most should be). Anyway, the reason I bring this up leads back to the discussion of villages being able to accept letters of credit from House Kundarak. Personally, i'd say yes, yes they can, because they can always take it to their local lord and redeem it for somthing more useful (like paying taxes, extra livestock or coin and whatnot). The local lord, i'm more than sure, would have a fair ammount of dealings with House Kundarak and would most likely mantain an account with them, meaning he'd be more than likely able to cash in or deposit letters of credit whenever he makes a trip to the city, heck, he may hire adventurers to go deposite it for him (how funny would that be? to see your own letter of credit being given back before you left the province). Anyway, I hope this sheds some light on the fact that villages under the province could handle letters of credit, thus reducing the need for hoardes of coins to be piled up within the town council's rootceller (unless they're just a greedy or evil or something).
Euangelion 10-24-06, 12:22 PM	BTW- I did find out that Eberron is based upon a feudal monarchy, meaning for every (lets say) 3 villages, you have a local lord in charge of their defense and well being, aswell as taxation and conscriptions in times of war (I knew there was a reason there were so many ir's in the world, they are lords, well, at least most should be). Anyway, the reason I bring this up leads back to the discussion of villages being able to accept letters of credit from House Kundarak. Personally, i'd say yes, yes they can, because they can always take it to their local lord and redeem it for somthing more useful (like paying taxes, extra livestock or coin and whatnot). The local lord, i'm more than sure, would have a fair ammount of dealings with House Kundarak and would most likely mantain an account with them, meaning he'd be more than likely able to cash in or deposit letters of credit whenever he makes a trip to the city, heck, he may hire adventurers to go deposite it for him (how funny would that be? to see your own letter of credit being given back before you left the province). Anyway, I hope this sheds some light on the fact that villages under the province could handle letters of credit, thus reducing the need for hoardes of coins to be piled up within the town council's rootceller (unless they're just a greedy or evil or something). Interesting perspective. It sounds like a small local lord would probably run a bank of their own, with connections to Kundarak, while larger lords may in fact have a Kundarak office in their keep/castle. Then again, much like company towns of more recent history (American, at least), the lord would be free to set whatever fees or interest rates they want. One more way for the unscrupulous lord to shaft the locals!
Logos7 10-24-06, 12:46 PM	Starting from The Peasent with no Ranks in Profession and Relevant stat of 10 for Avg of 10.5 Gp a week or 546 gp a year) I think the Biggest problem is the line "The Avg Peasent makes 1 sp a day or 36.5 gp a year as a untrained labourer" ( Ie no Ranks). I think the biggest thing would be assuming that a commoner has a rank in a profession, and that only non entities ( Drifters, children, Serfs would be working for the equivalent of 1 Sp) make that low amount. All of a sudden the avg farmer can afford a house if he saves for a year or two ( needing 1/3 the raw material (333gp) + 100 gp for worker's wages ( Unless someone volunteer's for a return of the favor) All that's left is a few repricing's about consistantcy with Base materials being cheaper than worked goods ( Ie the Craft Check should add value consistantly in a formulaic way) ( Like wood Pulp being much cheaper and paper as well ( Perhaps Profession: Pulp Mill Worker or something like that) Thanks for thoughts people Logos
Neofish 10-24-06, 01:08 PM	Interesting perspective. It sounds like a small local lord would probably run a bank of their own, with connections to Kundarak, while larger lords may in fact have a Kundarak office in their keep/castle. Then again, much like company towns of more recent history (American, at least), the lord would be free to set whatever fees or interest rates they want. One more way for the unscrupulous lord to shaft the locals! I think your on to something, seeing how Kundarak built the greatest prision in all of Khovaire and a reknown for the security of their banks, letting Kundarak set up shop in your keep would be a much welcomed agreement. EDIT- I also find the idea alot more believable than adventurers being able to cash in diamonds and other valuable jewels at every throp they run into.
Neofish 10-24-06, 01:48 PM	Starting from The Peasent with no Ranks in Profession and Relevant stat of 10 for Avg of 10.5 Gp a week or 546 gp a year) I think the Biggest problem is the line "The Avg Peasent makes 1 sp a day or 36.5 gp a year as a untrained labourer" ( Ie no Ranks). I think the biggest thing would be assuming that a commoner has a rank in a profession, and that only non entities ( Drifters, children, Serfs would be working for the equivalent of 1 Sp) make that low amount. All of a sudden the avg farmer can afford a house if he saves for a year or two ( needing 1/3 the raw material (333gp) + 100 gp for worker's wages ( Unless someone volunteer's for a return of the favor) All that's left is a few repricing's about consistantcy with Base materials being cheaper than worked goods ( Ie the Craft Check should add value consistantly in a formulaic way) ( Like wood Pulp being much cheaper and paper as well ( Perhaps Profession: Pulp Mill Worker or something like that) Thanks for thoughts people Logos In the real world, as soon as you were able to, you learned the trade of your familiy or you were sent off for apprenticeship to learn a useful trade and so your familiy wouldn't have to support you. Peasents were poor, and not only had to provide for themselves, and provide for the lord who's land they lived on. If you didnt learn the skills needed to fulfill these rolls, you died, simple as that. So I think it's safe to assume (barring any misfortune of being orphaned by an Orc raid or somesuch) that you learned the trade of your familiy just like your parents did before you, and so on and so fourth. Personally, i'd stat every male commoner with an average Int of 10 with max ranks in Profession (farmer) and skill focus (Profession[ farmer]), just like Edy has stated, this represents the knowledge imparted to you by your farther, and your father's father, and your father's father's father. It's everything he needs to know about growing crops and protecting them from bad weather, and how to sperate them, keep rabbits out of your stock, and all the other tidbits needed in order to feed yourself and your familiy and to grow the necessary crops that your local lord requires from you. Now, this example is just for someone who is devoted sole to the role of farming, but what about all the other stuff a farmer needs to know in order to survive you ask? Things like cooking, sewing, cobbling (if they want decent shoes and not rags wrapped around there feet), leatherworking ( if they live in a winter area and need fur coats), roof thatching (that neat hay stuff that keeps your house dry and warm), and masonry (for building homes of stone and mud, also for building fireplaces/pits in their homes). Well, that's where kids and Wives come in (although, in Eberron, the breadwinner in the familiy could be male or female). At the sake of not draging this post on for another few pages, i'll stop right here for now. In short, all Commoners should have ranks in profession (farming), it's their sole occupation and livelihood, without it, they'd starve or freeze or be unprotected and eaten to death. EDIT- You also forgot to figure in the listed cost it takes a commoner to feed himself and his familiy, aswell as to feed his livestock, mantain his house, and how much the local taxes are. Also, I seriously doubt that any of his profits are actually given in a coin format. Most likely, the "money" he makes from his profession check is the actual crop he grows, which he stores to feed his family and perhaps sells a little to buy an iron pot or some nice spice from the local traveling mechant. So yes, he may have 546 gp a year, but it isn't juicy, worthless when it comes to survival but pretty to look at, gold coins, it's 546 gp in grain, pigs, chicken, goats, sheep, lumber, corn, beans, and anything else he grows or raises in order to survive.
JulesCARV 10-26-06, 01:10 AM	I think that for Eberron, the price of hirelings listed in the DMG is probably a bit off. 1 sp per day for a cook is too low. Hirelings should probably be more commonly expected to charge around the area of 1 gp/day for lowly trained ones (cooks, grooms, maids), and maybe 3 gp/day for higher trained ones (alchemists, barristers, sages) And, because I feel like it and have a somewhat obsessive-compulsive personality, some ideas for sample local types in Eberron. We'll assume level 1 NPC classes and the 13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8 array, for two stats of +1, two stats of 0, and two stats of -1. The money-making skills (i.e., craft, profession, perform, and tumble) Spellcasting professionals: level 1 gnome magewright alchemist: this character gets a +19 modifier on craft (alchemy) checks, from 4 ranks, +1 intelligence, +3 skill focus, +2 racial, +2 circumstance (masterwork artisan's tools), +2 circumstance (alchemist's lab), and +5 spell (magecraft). Makes 767 galifars per year, on average, from "professional" craft checks. Interestingly, the gnome can make up to 3364 gp per year in terms of raw alchemists fire, smokesticks, and tinder twigs (taking 10 to get 29 vs. a DC of 30), even after the 1/3rd material cost, but issues of marketing, selling to retailers, market demand, etc, prevent the gnome from profiting that much (at least, that's a plausible rationalization, although it doesn't truly explain why the profitability of making craft checks to earn money grows linearly with modifier, whereas the profitability of making craft checks to craft items grows quadratically with modifier). level 1 dwarf weaponsmith magewright: +17 modifier (gets everything that the gnome alchemist gets, except the alchemist's lab): 715 gp/year Devoted level 1 adept of Kol Korran: this character gets a +18 modifier on profession checks to earn money (4 ranks, +1 wisdom, +3 skill focus, and +10 commerce domain granted power), assuming that the orison "guidance" cannot be applied to profession checks. Can make 741 gp per year, in addition to any professional spellcasting she might charge for. Well-to-do non-spellcasters: Skilled crafter (level 1 expert) or kobold miner: +10 modifier (4 ranks, +1 intelligence (or wisdom for kobold miner), +3 skill focus, +2 masterwork artisan's tools (or racial for kobold miner)): 533 gp/year Skilled Professional: +8 modifier (all but masterwork artisan's tools): 481 gp/year Skilled dwarf metal or stone crafter or kobold trapmaker: +12 modifier: 585 gp/year Skilled human non-bard performer or acrobat (tumbler): +10 modifier (4 ranks (perform), +1 charisma, +3 skill focus, +2 masterwork instrument or 4 ranks (tumble), +1 dexterity, +3 skill focus (tumble), +2 acrobatic (if human)) Makes an average of 1.961 gp/performance. If we assume 260 working days per year (52 weeks, 5 days per week), then 509.86 gp/year. Note: races with +2 dexterity modifiers but no bonus feats, such as elves and halflings, also might be tumblers, but would do it with a +2 dexterity modifier, but no acrobatic feat. Middle class: Common crafter/professional: (4 ranks, no intelligence/wisdom bonus or masterwork tools): +4 modifier. 377 gp/year Skilled Elf or halfling tumbler: (4 ranks, +2 dexterity modifier, +3 skill focus, no acrobatic feat): +9 modifier: 374 gp/year Working class: Poor craftsman/professional: +0 modifier, but still trained (+1 rank, -1 int/wis): 273 gp/year. Average performer: (4 ranks, no charisma bonus, skill focus, masterwork instruments, etc). 1.026 gp/performance: 266.825 gp/year Desperately poor (note: these people are probably un-resettled refugees from the last war, beggars, etc. Most probably survive on charity or public programs, or are children doing odd jobs while primarily relying on their parents/guardians.): Untrained laborer: 1 sp/day, for about 30 gp/year Beggar performer (makes -1 modifier perform checks, with -1 charisma and no ranks): Makes an average of 1.5 sp/day, but very variable: about 45 gp/year? Skills other than moneymakers: Expert translator: Knows 29 languages: every one in Eberron except druidic. Gets "common" for free. Can buy 28 more with skill points and "speak language" as a class skill, with a +1 intelligence modifier or simply being human for the four extra skill points, or getting the "open minded" feat. A human with "open minded" twice and +1 intelligence has 15 skill points left over for profession (translator), decipher script, knowledge (geography), and... whatever. Even a non-human with +0 intelligence can do it, though, by taking open minded (5 skill points) and being an expert (24 skill points), for two free languages (common and elven, common and orc, or whatever), 27 skill points spent on languages, and two leftover skill points. Devoted human non-Jorasco adept healer: has healing domain (from worship of Olladra, the Sovereign Host, or just being dedicated to healing as an ideal), +1 wisdom, 4 ranks in heal, 4 ranks in profession (herbalist), skill focus (heal), self-sufficient. Oddly enough, a healer's kit is rarely worth it, and only really for emergency use, since each usage of it costs 5 gp. With +10 heal modifier, can take 10 to resist most diseases and poisons (can forestall, but not actually defeat, DC 20 mummy's rot. Can beat poison DCs besides dragon bile and purple worm poison. For dragon bile and purple worm poison, probably gets out the healing kit and tries to improvise her best (represented by rolling rather than taking 10)). Negotiator: has 4 ranks in diplomacy, +1 cha modifier, +3 skill focus, and +2 from either being human and having the Negotiator feat or being khoravar (half-elf), for a +10 modifier. Also has 4 ranks in knowledge (nobility and royalty), sense motive, and bluff. Will become much, much better at his job when he gets his second level. A half-elf expert 3 with skill focus (diplomacy) and negotiator and a +1 cha modifier will have a +20 diplomacy modifier (+6 ranks, +1 cha, +3 skill focus, +2 bluff synergy, +2 sense motive synergy, +2 knowledge (nobility and royalty) synergy, +2 racial, and +2 negotiator).
Neofish 10-26-06, 02:08 AM	JulesCARV Simply put, you da man... Dude, thank you for making that, i'm so gonna copy and print that bad boy out, tlak about a major time saver. One thing though, what you put as the default commoner? the Middle class skilled crafter/professional? Or the poor class cafter/professional? You can read my take above, but i'm interested in hearing your justifications and reasoning on the matter.
JulesCARV 10-31-06, 04:56 PM	Sorry I forgot to get back to you, Neofish. Personally, I think of the most common people as being middle class (max ranks, but no int/wis bonus to profession/craft or skill focus). They may not be a majority, but are probably a plurality, at least among the groups I described. Of course, these are all level 1ers. There are a significant number of people who are level 2 or 3 and such. Update: All of my stuff, of course, is based on the assumption that the craft/profession/perform systems work the same for NPCs as for PCs, which might be a dubious assumption. In Eberron, PCs are supposed to be special in ways that the pure mechanics don't account for, being the chosen of destiny, etc: one might rule that a PC with one rank in craft (weaponsmithing) and +3 intelligence makes (4 + 1d20) / 2 gp per week, for an average of 377 gp/year for a 52-week year, as per the PHB craft rules, but that an NPC with +1 intelligence, 4 ranks in craft (armorsmithing), skill focus (craft (armorsmithing)), and masterwork artisan's tools, only makes about 50 gp/year, because he's an NPC and thus doesn't have the heroic destiny and such, and is thus worse in ways that can't be mechanically captured, in spite of having a +10 craft modifier.
Neofish 11-01-06, 07:53 PM	Sorry I forgot to get back to you, Neofish. Personally, I think of the most common people as being middle class (max ranks, but no int/wis bonus to profession/craft or skill focus). They may not be a majority, but are probably a plurality, at least among the groups I described. Of course, these are all level 1ers. There are a significant number of people who are level 2 or 3 and such. It's cool dude, no biggie. Anyway, i'd just stick with the standard craft rules, even for NPC's. Adventurer's are Heroic because they can be crushed by a gaint thrown rock and walk away from it, not because they are expert basketweavers or innkeepers. EDIT- I also forgot, Edy's article is up in Regdar's Repository, I suggest everyone check it out, it was very well written.
Edymnion 11-01-06, 08:09 PM	EDIT- I also forgot, Edy's article is up in Regdar's Repository, I suggest everyone check it out, it was very well written.Heh, I just saw that it was up and was coming in to tell everybody, but I see I was beaten to the punch. I want my thunder back! :P Anyway, here's the link: D&D Commoners Make Plenty of Money
Sir Elton 11-01-06, 09:07 PM	Hey All, I've seen many (well Grounded) compleints about the D&D economy, particularly in Eberron and i was just wondering how one goes about fixing it, or in particular what THe D&D economy needs in order to be Realistic ( In the sense that it is Non Self Contridictory ie a 10 Pound Iron Pot costing less than what 10 pounds of iron costs) Go buy Iron Crown Enterprises' Gamemaster Law.
Neofish 11-01-06, 11:59 PM	Heh, I just saw that it was up and was coming in to tell everybody, but I see I was beaten to the punch. I want my thunder back! :P Anyway, here's the link: D&D Commoners Make Plenty of Money Yeah, sorry about that, I didn't bother to post a link cause I figured you'd swing by anyway with one. Plus, it was a nice excuse to bump the thead. It was a good article and I think it will do alot of Dm's some good to read it. Anyway, keep up the good work!
maollelujah 11-02-06, 08:16 AM	Nice work Edy, but there are problems with your farming story. Unless Farmer Joe lives in a warm environment, he can't farm all year around. So most likely he is only farming for 30 weeks instead of 50. He must keep seed to plant for next year, so part of his crop will have to be kept. This will cut into his margins. His son Billy can't really go hunting for food in the woods, because most likely the woods belong to a noble family and hunting there is against the law. Of course this doesn't factor in available land, taxes, . Most likely a farmer pulls out of the land just a handful of gold more than it takes to get by. In good years maybe double that...
Neofish 11-02-06, 04:13 PM	Nice work Edy, but there are problems with your farming story. Unless Farmer Joe lives in a warm environment, he can't farm all year around. So most likely he is only farming for 30 weeks instead of 50. He must keep seed to plant for next year, so part of his crop will have to be kept. This will cut into his margins. His son Billy can't really go hunting for food in the woods, because most likely the woods belong to a noble family and hunting there is against the law. Of course this doesn't factor in available land, taxes, . Most likely a farmer pulls out of the land just a handful of gold more than it takes to get by. In good years maybe double that... Those are excellent points! I feel that the article helped to explain the main concern, that commoners can survive in general and don't earn only 1sp/day. A commoner makes more than enough to support himself and his family, that was the main point of the article and I think Edy did a great job of breaking it down for people to comprehend. (I'm still a little bugged about Regdar's, I posted a reply yesterday and it still hasn't got through the Wiz_O's, oh well I guess).
Edymnion 11-02-06, 07:19 PM	Unless Farmer Joe lives in a warm environment, he can't farm all year around. So most likely he is only farming for 30 weeks instead of 50.Logically speaking, this is true. However, the actual rules for profession checks don't go into that level of detail, so neither did I. Its true that they wouldn't be growing anything, but there would still be livestock that would still produce for them. At most they would have a reduced income, but it would not cease entirely. He must keep seed to plant for next year, so part of his crop will have to be kept. This will cut into his margins.Nope, wouldn't cut into his margins at all. Profession checks give you how much profit you get, after expenses for daily operation are covered. You don't have to pay for paper and ink to ply your Profession (Scribe) trade, for example. It would also be assumed that things like seed costs are being supplied as part of the check, and the results are what you get to keep. His son Billy can't really go hunting for food in the woods, because most likely the woods belong to a noble family and hunting there is against the law.Not necissarily. Its true that in feudalism this would be the case, but I didn't specify that these commoners actually lived under the direction of a local lord that would be cutting off access from these resources. It is focused more on an independant community within the boarders of a civilized nation. If they are living on the land of a local lord, this might very well apply, but it is most definately not a default in any D&D game I've played in. Of course this doesn't factor in available land, taxesNo, it doesn't, because there is no fixed rate for that in the rules. Taxes could be assumed to be 10% to reflect tithes, but that still would not put a sizeable dent in their ability to save money. As for land, its D&D. There's *ALWAYS* wide open spaces full of monsters that needs clearing and settling. ;)
johnkretzer 11-03-06, 04:15 AM	So not only does a GM have know the rule as well as a lawyer or a judge, know small units tactics, figure realistic politcal science, act serveral different roles sometimes at the same time, etc....now you want us to become economicists trying to figure the economy with factors that never existed in the real world....Sigh.
JulesCARV 11-03-06, 02:55 PM	Shouldn't be too hard: just take a bunch of partial derivatives and subject them to a Lagrangian constraint and call it an "equilibrium." True, the results are fictional, but then, all of Eberron is fictional, so using fake economics to describe a fake economy works perfectly! That should satisfy most of your players, unless they've taken economics beyond the undergrad level. (Note: I'm not really as anti-economics as I come across as being here. It's just that economics is easy/fun to mock, so I enjoy mocking it.)
johnkretzer 11-03-06, 03:22 PM	Go buy Iron Crown Enterprises' Gamemaster Law. Did you go to this site yet? http://www.cruisegazing.com/RPG_Motivational/dndsucks.jpg Really you should go.
johnkretzer 11-03-06, 03:24 PM	Shouldn't be too hard: just take a bunch of partial derivatives and subject them to a Lagrangian constraint and call it an "equilibrium." True, the results are fictional, but then, all of Eberron is fictional, so using fake economics to describe a fake economy works perfectly! That should satisfy most of your players, unless they've taken economics beyond the undergrad level. (Note: I'm not really as anti-economics as I come across as being here. It's just that economics is easy/fun to mock, so I enjoy mocking it.) ????? In english please???? Though in truth I only have player who delves into economics at all. How would the impact of the spells Wall of Salt and other spells effect a enconomy?
Edymnion 11-03-06, 11:50 PM	????? In english please????He can't, it was technobable using mathematical terms.
JulesCARV 11-04-06, 01:15 AM	I was just poking a little good natured fun about how undergraduate microeconomics is taught.
aelryinth 11-09-06, 03:32 PM	????? In english please???? Though in truth I only have player who delves into economics at all. How would the impact of the spells Wall of Salt and other spells effect a enconomy? Anytime you can create something for nothing it affects an economy. It costs NOTHING for a mage to create a wall of iron once high enough level to do so. Ergo, he can create one, and sell off the iron and make money...something for nothing. A wall of salt is the same thing. The classic example is Flesh to Salt (instead of stone). Buy a lot of cattle, turn them into salt, and you get something like 100x the money by weight when you sell them. Breaks the economy instantly. Using fabricate to turn raw goods into worked goods instantly is another way of doing things. One wizard can easily substitute for dozens of smiths...give him the raw materials, and he can pound out suits of full plate...multiple suits, for massive profit...in no time and perfectly. Lastly, djinni can create soft goods of infinite duration...thinks like oil, rope, food...and it doesn't cost them anything either, so if you have one as a servant, you can pick your favorite supervaluable spice, have him create it, and sell it off. Again, breaks the economy. ===Aelryinth
Edymnion 11-09-06, 05:54 PM	Actually, it only breaks the economy if the scale is large enough to be a problem. One single mage spending all of his spells per day to make iron or salt simply is not going to be capable of even coming close to the rest of the world's ability to mine the stuff the old fashioned way. He could break local economies for that particular substance, by making it virtually worthless, but its not like it would really affect anything else. He can't make enough to export on a large scale, and making it where everybody in the villiage has all the salt they could ever want doesn't exactly break anything. Even if you got a bunch of them making stuff, it wouldn't break the economy, only the relative price for the goods would drop. Good example would be the value of water between a desert and those living by a lake. In one, its worth far more than gold, while in the other its something you literally dump your :censored: in because its so worthless. While you could try transporting the water to where it is more valuable, the cost of transport quickly makes the job far harder to profit from.
aelryinth 11-09-06, 08:58 PM	This is covered in much more detail in the whole post by...whatisname? over on Charop. Teleportation Circles/Portals/Gates/etc. remove all cost of transport. Being able to make TONS of salt every day is actually far, far cheaper then an entire salt mine. Especially if you start devoting other slots to it. The fabricate was the real killer, since it translates mass into finished goods by weight, not value. So take something cheap and fabricate it into something extremely expensive. There's no need to restrict yourself to making chain mail from steel....go right to full plate and start teleporting to a network of sales agents across the globe via teleportation. A single mage could make dozens of suits a day, and when you start factoring in multiple mages...who needs smiths anymore? There's a whole slew of factors. I think it was linked above, I didn't check the main link. Reading how mages can break the system and force drastic changes on the world as we know it by dint of their magic is touched on in great detail. His 'hard limit' of 15,000 gp for magic items is also a great factor, as its the only thing which can't be instantly wished for (by, say, summoning up an efreeti...no xp cost!), and said items would thus of course not be payable out in gold...because gold can be made from nothing, and 15k+ magic items cannot. Really, I'm only touching on the outsides of the implications. Once you really start getting into the meat of it, it's some serious crap mages can do to your whole economy if they use any brains...and, oh, wait, mages aren't very smart, are they? Especially about estoeric subjects like, say, economics....heh! ==Aelryinth
Edymnion 11-09-06, 09:32 PM	Um, there is one problem with all that though. The price on things like an entire system of teleportation circles would be astronomical. Its like saying "Why use roads when you could just build an entire network of mag-lev trains to get places much faster with far less pollution?". Because the price of putting that infrastructure in place is beyond it's short and even medium term profitabililty. Not to mention that the majority of stuff here requires mid to high level casters to pull off to begin with. Faerun would have to worry about this, but Greyhawk and Eberron are pretty safe due to the overall lack of high enough leveled mages that could do it. Not to mention the TIME needed just to craft all these things. Yeah, it looks all nice and broken on paper at a glance, but actually look at what it takes to put everything in place to take advantage of it, and you'll quickly see why it doesn't happen.
makeshiftwings 11-10-06, 06:25 PM	This is covered in much more detail in the whole post by...whatisname? over on Charop. Teleportation Circles/Portals/Gates/etc. remove all cost of transport. Being able to make TONS of salt every day is actually far, far cheaper then an entire salt mine. Especially if you start devoting other slots to it. The fabricate was the real killer, since it translates mass into finished goods by weight, not value. So take something cheap and fabricate it into something extremely expensive. There's no need to restrict yourself to making chain mail from steel....go right to full plate and start teleporting to a network of sales agents across the globe via teleportation. A single mage could make dozens of suits a day, and when you start factoring in multiple mages...who needs smiths anymore? There's a whole slew of factors. I think it was linked above, I didn't check the main link. Reading how mages can break the system and force drastic changes on the world as we know it by dint of their magic is touched on in great detail. His 'hard limit' of 15,000 gp for magic items is also a great factor, as its the only thing which can't be instantly wished for (by, say, summoning up an efreeti...no xp cost!), and said items would thus of course not be payable out in gold...because gold can be made from nothing, and 15k+ magic items cannot. Really, I'm only touching on the outsides of the implications. Once you really start getting into the meat of it, it's some serious crap mages can do to your whole economy if they use any brains...and, oh, wait, mages aren't very smart, are they? Especially about estoeric subjects like, say, economics....heh! ==Aelryinth If you were going into that much detail, you could take it a bit farther to try and rebalance it though. So, you have some uppity mage that decides to create infinite salt and undercut everyone. Creating an infinite amount of something is not in itself that outlandish. Today's economy revolves a lot around information technology and digital distribution, both of which can be created "inifinitely" and "out of nothing". So, the mage has infinite salt, but he can't sell an infinite amount since there won't be an infinite demand. Regardless, he then tries to undercut everyone in a large area. This is a monopoly, again, something that exists in the real world and hasn't yet caused everything to collapse. Who knows, maybe the price of salt in the PHB is the price that the current reigning monopolistic salt baron wizard set it at, and all the salt in the world comes from him. It doesn't make any difference to the majority of the economy, except that you are gradually letting the wizard become a billionare, while the previous salt miners need to take up new professions in a gradually magic-centric economy (just like how in the real world factory workers have gradually been replaced by machines and needed to move into more information-centric jobs). 1% of the people owning 99% of the wealth isn't anything new either; the drastic split between the rich and the poor is inherent in capitalism as well. Furthermore, if the world does decide that these wizard-monopolies are a problem, then they could create anti-monopoly laws and some basic trade regulations. In this case, a wizard that decides to become a salt baron would be breaking the law, and have a much harder time getting his contacts all over the place to sell his salt. On a somewhat different note, I think you need to take motivation and personality into account. When I envision the type of person with the will and obsessiveness it would take to become a 9th level wizard, I can't imagine he would then be content to just stop his studies and wizardly pursuits to sit around running a salt shipping company. High level wizards, in my mind, are usually divided into those who quickly become an asset to their nation and/or friends, and spend their time working to the defense and betterment of their community, or they become somewhat crazy egocentric powermongers who have long since abandoned the petty hoarding of gold pieces that seems to amuse the masses so much, and are on a quest for true power. It would be like a university professor of computer science deciding he was going to leave the university and instead sell dancing girl screensavers on a shareware website for the rest of his life. People into "making a quick buck" are just not going to delve into something as demanding and dangerous as magic.
JustX 11-10-06, 06:42 PM	As a baisis for general money and things, I've tended to use the concept of money from game of thrones. Your basic commoner uses trade and barter for their purchases and nobles use letters of credit. there are those that carry coin but it's those that are on the move and can't afford the weight of carring a load of goods to buy things. I've also been using a modified table based on the Throne table of goods instead of the D20 cost table. One way to solve the issue was to break the money up into more than just 5 demoninations of currency. By doing this you can make some goods cheaper than the standard 1cp and some more than a specific gp amount. By adding more coins a full copper can be treated like a dollar instead of the change that most people see it as.
aelryinth 11-10-06, 09:43 PM	The amount of money to be made from instituting a teleportation circle pays for the cost to establish it in NO TIME. You need only one wizard of sufficient level to cast the spell, and someone with the item creation feat to get the whole ball rolling. Paying 1000 gp to use the circle to circumvent a 2000 mile journey is peanuts...likely, the circle will pay for itself inside a month, and you can go on and establish the next one. In no time at all, you have hoards of money flowing in to fund all the spell acquisition and magical research you could ever want. Who says a mage wouldn't love to have this? A guild of mages controlling 2-3 sets of these is set for life as far as income goes. Getting to the level where you could guarantee this sort of income IS a goal for a power obsessed wizard. And that's only a step up from a wizard using Teleport and Portable Hole to deal in high demand goodies seperated by 1000 miles, and run a personal courier service for nobles who don't want to go thru the tedium of overland travel (much like as exists in Eberron...fee is what, 1 gp/mile?) And sure, producing infinite amounts of salt will alter the price and the economy...which, by definition, is breaking the economy, is it not? And placing utterly incredible amounts of gold at the beck and call of your characters. Now, add to this the implication of summoning random efreeti for 3 wishes a day...and creating magic items worth xx out of thin air. No xp cost, no gold cost. The value of gold starts to plummet as more and more of these items start flooding the street...or is it the value of magic items? It's all a matter of scale, and it doesn't take much to get the ball rolling. ---------- Let me be the first to reiterate that I'm far more common sense then this, and would never let such stuff happen. There'd be consequences, fallout, etc etc. But, it was pointed out that, by the rules, this stuff is all possible, and you'd be an idiot NOT to take advantage of the ability to make 'free gold' if you are a mage. Really, seriously, you have to admit there is a logical point to this. Comparing it to the information age is actually a nod in the right direction. D@D assumes a LOT of medieval type things that, in all honesty, should not exist in an economy with instant data transfer, perfect communication, instant and possibly mass transportation networks that can span thousands of leagues, and many, many other things. ==+Aelryinth
Edymnion 11-11-06, 12:01 AM	You need only one wizard of sufficient level to cast the spell, and someone with the item creation feat to get the whole ball rolling. Paying 1000 gp to use the circle to circumvent a 2000 mile journey is peanuts...likely, the circle will pay for itself inside a month, and you can go on and establish the next one.Yeah, just stat up how much this thing would cost, and remember that crafting it still takes a day per 1k gp to make. You'd have to use Greater Teleport (a 7th level spell) to actually get any real distance out of it, plus the fact nobody would want to use the thing if there was a chance of it spitting you out in the middle of nowhere. Using just the basic formula, a Use Activated ring that casts Greater Teleportation would cost (7x13x2,000) 182,000 gp. Its under the Epic price cap, so thats not a problem. However, the fact that it would take 182 days of essentially non-stop crafting means *EACH* gate would take half a year to produce. And thats half a year without weekends off, without vacation, just day in, day out nonstop crafting. Oops, another flaw, it would cost the crafter 7,280 xp per gate to build these things. Which means whoever is supplying the xp needs to be at least what, 7th level pushing 8th before they even have enough xp to be able to craft one in the first place, since you can't spend so much xp as to drop a level. Even if we say the 13th level wizard thats providing the Greater Teleport spells pays the xp, he wouldn't be able to make more than one or two before his xp dropped so low for that level that he couldn't craft any more, which means he would either have to go adventuring and risk being killed, or use the *MUCH* slower method of gaining xp from day to day living, which would mean the recharge time for this guy would be measured in decades before he could craft another one. This plan simply cannot work without a large, focused effort by a vast number of mid-high level mages all spending years of their lives trying to set it in place, for what? To make money? By the time you could even get anybody that could make this stuff, they would already have so much character wealth they wouldn't know what to do with it if they weren't adventuring and using it for super-armor and weapons. Really, for someone that can bend the very fabric of reality to their will, do you *REALLY* think they would spend so much of their time and effort doing something so base as becoming a salt merchant? And do you think that essentially the entire wizarding world would devote the better part of an entire generation of wizards into setting this stuff up, just to make money? They could make much more money in a much shorter period of time doing almost anything else they wanted. And as for the 1,000 gp per trip, except for the incredibly rare adventurer or wealthy noble, just who the heck do you think is going to have the money to pay for that? Its a heck of a lot cheaper to just hire a wizard to cast the spell on you normally, since there are apparently 13th level wizards in every town if setting up that kind of network isn't a problem. No matter how you cut it, a network of teleportation rings is just too costly to put into place to ever make it financially viable. It would take the entire life savings of an almost epic level character per gate, which is typically enough money to buy and sell small nations. Might as well just buy the freaking salt/iron mines and run them yourselves with golems doing the mining at that point. And sure, producing infinite amounts of salt will alter the price and the economy...which, by definition, is breaking the economy, is it not?No, it is not breaking the economy. Breaking the economy would require that you make the entire economy crumble, which devaluing a single item could not do. Now, add to this the implication of summoning random efreeti for 3 wishes a day...and creating magic items worth xx out of thin air. No xp cost, no gold cost.Honestly, anybody stupid enough to trust an evil outsider to grant you a Wish deserves whatever horrible thing the efreeti twists out of it. The value of gold starts to plummet as more and more of these items start flooding the street...or is it the value of magic items?No, the value of gold does not plummet. The value of magical items plummets. DeBeers has enough diamonds backstocked, combined with the amount they intentionally don't mine per year, to make the price of diamonds plummet so hard you could buy the things in vending machines in K-Mart. It would ruin THIER finances to do this, but it would not devalue anybody's currency.
johnkretzer 11-11-06, 12:17 AM	Though there is one fix for the wall of salt mage I know of. The people who own the salt mines won't be happy. There pool there resouces which will be considerable. And hire a assassin to kill said wizard. Wizard no longer a problem :)
makeshiftwings 11-11-06, 03:21 AM	The amount of money to be made from instituting a teleportation circle pays for the cost to establish it in NO TIME. You need only one wizard of sufficient level to cast the spell, and someone with the item creation feat to get the whole ball rolling. Paying 1000 gp to use the circle to circumvent a 2000 mile journey is peanuts...likely, the circle will pay for itself inside a month, and you can go on and establish the next one. ..snip... Really, seriously, you have to admit there is a logical point to this. Comparing it to the information age is actually a nod in the right direction. D@D assumes a LOT of medieval type things that, in all honesty, should not exist in an economy with instant data transfer, perfect communication, instant and possibly mass transportation networks that can span thousands of leagues, and many, many other things. ==+Aelryinth Well, I think there are two separate complaints here. One is that "wizards could break the economy", and the other, which is more what you seem to be going on about here, is that "the published d&d settings don't take into account the sorts of technology that would spring up if the D&D magic rules were real". As we all know, Eberron is definitely a step in the right direction, but sure, you're right that if you think about it, D&D magic would allow all sorts of further reaching technological advances that would have a much vaster impact on society than even the Eberron wide magic style can show. Also, the breaking economy thing really has two sides as well, one is versimilitude of the world, and the second is "what if my player tries to use a rules loophole to get infinite gold". The second one should mostly be a non-issue; there are enough rules loopholes all over the place that a decent DM should be used to just saying "No" without needing to try and come up with a metaphysical reason for something on the fly. The versimilitude is mostly a matter of what setting you're going to use, and is not really all that particular to D&D or Eberron; it's a problem that effects all roleplaying games. If you think too deeply about what a society would be like as they gradually figure out that the physical laws of their world are actually the ones contained in the player's handbook and dungeon master's guide, it becomes harder and harder to rationalize it as being anything at all like what our world is like. And if you're going to allow the people in your world to think that deeply about the spells section of the player's handbook, you need to admit that they would also know the rest of it as well; they would know all about Will saves and Hit Points and Armor Class, and would have done a multitude of scientific experiments with the magical items that affect or are affected by all the numerical stats in the game, since these are their "laws of physics", so that all the people in the world would be able to "metagame" their actual reality. You can't worry about it that much or you'll end up with a setting that's unplayable.
Neofish 11-11-06, 03:30 AM	Eh, how many people actually want to buy magic salt? You know, build giant teleportation circles just to flood the market full of slat is kinda bonkers IMO... Seriously, your going to adventure to level 13, and save EVERY COPPER PIECE YOU EVER MADE so that you can build this damn thing so that you can corner the salt trade is asinine at best. Not to mention, that a single 13th level dude will only able to make one, so he will either A) Convince a buddy to make the same sacrifices as you or B) wait another few years to gain enough dough and lifeforce (xp) to make his second gate. Damn, that's alot of detication for a few extra pieces of gold... I'm also willing to bet that no nation would ever consider adding a permanant doorway into one of thier main cities from another nations city. That's just asking for trouble.
aelryinth 11-11-06, 04:14 AM	Yeah, just stat up how much this thing would cost, and remember that crafting it still takes a day per 1k gp to make. You'd have to use Greater Teleport (a 7th level spell) to actually get any real distance out of it, plus the fact nobody would want to use the thing if there was a chance of it spitting you out in the middle of nowhere. Using just the basic formula, a Use Activated ring that casts Greater Teleportation would cost (7x13x2,000) 182,000 gp. Its under the Epic price cap, so thats not a problem. However, the fact that it would take 182 days of essentially non-stop crafting means *EACH* gate would take half a year to produce. And thats half a year without weekends off, without vacation, just day in, day out nonstop crafting. Oops, another flaw, it would cost the crafter 7,280 xp per gate to build these things. Which means whoever is supplying the xp needs to be at least what, 7th level pushing 8th before they even have enough xp to be able to craft one in the first place, since you can't spend so much xp as to drop a level. Even if we say the 13th level wizard thats providing the Greater Teleport spells pays the xp, he wouldn't be able to make more than one or two before his xp dropped so low for that level that he couldn't craft any more, which means he would either have to go adventuring and risk being killed, or use the *MUCH* slower method of gaining xp from day to day living, which would mean the recharge time for this guy would be measured in decades before he could craft another one. This plan simply cannot work without a large, focused effort by a vast number of mid-high level mages all spending years of their lives trying to set it in place, for what? To make money? By the time you could even get anybody that could make this stuff, they would already have so much character wealth they wouldn't know what to do with it if they weren't adventuring and using it for super-armor and weapons. Really, for someone that can bend the very fabric of reality to their will, do you *REALLY* think they would spend so much of their time and effort doing something so base as becoming a salt merchant? And do you think that essentially the entire wizarding world would devote the better part of an entire generation of wizards into setting this stuff up, just to make money? They could make much more money in a much shorter period of time doing almost anything else they wanted. And as for the 1,000 gp per trip, except for the incredibly rare adventurer or wealthy noble, just who the heck do you think is going to have the money to pay for that? Its a heck of a lot cheaper to just hire a wizard to cast the spell on you normally, since there are apparently 13th level wizards in every town if setting up that kind of network isn't a problem. No matter how you cut it, a network of teleportation rings is just too costly to put into place to ever make it financially viable. It would take the entire life savings of an almost epic level character per gate, which is typically enough money to buy and sell small nations. Might as well just buy the freaking salt/iron mines and run them yourselves with golems doing the mining at that point. No, it is not breaking the economy. Breaking the economy would require that you make the entire economy crumble, which devaluing a single item could not do. Honestly, anybody stupid enough to trust an evil outsider to grant you a Wish deserves whatever horrible thing the efreeti twists out of it. No, the value of gold does not plummet. The value of magical items plummets. DeBeers has enough diamonds backstocked, combined with the amount they intentionally don't mine per year, to make the price of diamonds plummet so hard you could buy the things in vending machines in K-Mart. It would ruin THIER finances to do this, but it would not devalue anybody's currency. oi, Edy, quit being hostile. I didn't make up the rules!@ I'm just pointing them out. First of all, remember you can use homonculi to do the work for you. So what if it takes half a year? You can also chip a quarter of that time off with the right feat. So, in the six months it takes to get the ring made...you make back the xp you invested in it. no muss no fuss. Theres feats enough to reduce the gold cost as well. No risk of bad destination using teleportation circle as the base spell. You also have a Fixed Destination....there's here's the Sharn to Fiarhaven circle, step right up....that over there is the Sharn to Korth...etc etc. If you have the thousands of gold to pay for sending a caravan overland or ship by water to and from a location, you have the money to use a teleportation circle to get the same effect at the same price...in no time whatsoever. It IS that simple. Oh, yeah, and wishes can create wealth too...i.e. make gold. using 'bad wording' to twist things is a 'hostile DM action'...it IS a valid use of a wish. It's just not valid when you don't have to pay the cost. I didn't make up the loopholes, Edy...as the above poster pointed out, in a 'real world' scenario, people would actually start breaking down the rules of their lives. They'd know about 'character levels', because these are measurable by spellcaster advancement, and comparable with aural detecting spells. They'd know about 'different saves', and have a better grasp on what 'hit points' are then we do. (shrugs) It's why I try not to think too much of the economy. I assume it all works smoothly in the background somewhere, and don't trouble myself over all the exploitable stuff. If it became a problem...then I'd start hitting the characters on the head with it. And sure, being able to become sickeningly wealthy is a great reason to become a powerful mage. Controlling roads and routes and charging tolls is a time honored method of collecting revenue and exerting influence. You could do a LOT of stuff based around control of teleport circles... As for the salt miners and the assassins...if I was that wizard, I'd be expecting that...not too likely they'd get away with it. heck, I'd probably arrange for them to hire me to off myself using polymorph or something, and then lay down me vengeance. Salt mines were commonly used via prison/slave labor, too...it's not the labor cost so much as it is the cost to transport. but! not wanting to cause an argument...it's just that the rules loops exist if you really want to put the screws to em. ===Aelryinth
johnkretzer 11-11-06, 12:30 PM	Eh, how many people actually want to buy magic salt? You know, build giant teleportation circles just to flood the market full of slat is kinda bonkers IMO... Seriously, your going to adventure to level 13, and save EVERY COPPER PIECE YOU EVER MADE so that you can build this damn thing so that you can corner the salt trade is asinine at best. Not to mention, that a single 13th level dude will only able to make one, so he will either A) Convince a buddy to make the same sacrifices as you or B) wait another few years to gain enough dough and lifeforce (xp) to make his second gate. Damn, that's alot of detication for a few extra pieces of gold... I'm also willing to bet that no nation would ever consider adding a permanant doorway into one of thier main cities from another nations city. That's just asking for trouble. um... if it is cheaper and just as good as regular salt? I think people will buy it. True cultures that have a fear or hatered of magic wouldn't( I don't see any self-respecting Ashbound would buy it). But if you look at the D&D settings there isn't really a widespread fear or hatered of magic. Also you really don't need a teleportation gates to have the impact. For instance in Eberron if you set up shop say in Sharn or another trade hub that would have a magor impact. As for money that is simple you look for investors. Go to one of the salt mine owners.
Edymnion 11-11-06, 01:09 PM	oi, Edy, quit being hostile. I didn't make up the rules!@ I'm just pointing them out.And I'm just pointing out that, like communism, it looks good on paper but it falls apart if you actually try to do it. First of all, remember you can use homonculi to do the work for you. So what if it takes half a year? You can also chip a quarter of that time off with the right feat. So, in the six months it takes to get the ring made...you make back the xp you invested in it. no muss no fuss. Theres feats enough to reduce the gold cost as well.Okay, if we wanna go Eberron specific, what advantage does this have over the existing airship system that would convince what would likely amount to the entire world population of high level wizards to band together to make this thing? The only way you could possibly get any return out of it is to make it in the same price range as airships, since the actual travel time differance is not going to be that important for the vast majority of cases. If you have the thousands of gold to pay for sending a caravan overland or ship by water to and from a location, you have the money to use a teleportation circle to get the same effect at the same price...in no time whatsoever.Except that it is very much cheaper to simply send an airship. And even those are repeatedly said to be something only the very rich and affluent can afford. Oh, yeah, and wishes can create wealth too...i.e. make gold. using 'bad wording' to twist things is a 'hostile DM action'...it IS a valid use of a wish. It's just not valid when you don't have to pay the cost.It isn't being a hostile DM when you are intentionally stopping a player from abusing the system. I didn't make up the loopholes, Edy...And again, I didn't make the rules that say why actually doing this would be so horribly expensive, time consuming, and an overall waste of effort when we already have multiple sources of transportation in place that are nearly as effective for a fraction of the price. But heck, lets just take the "makes something for nothing" bit out of the equation entirely and just look at what those teleportation rings could do. Fresh fruit and produce? Check, it can be on the merchant's stand 3 minutes after being picked, doesn't get much fresher than that. Fish? Even the deepest regions of Karnnath could get fresh fish whenever they wanted it, still flopping around. Just having that kind of system spread out all over the continent would drastically change the economy to the point it wouldn't matter if you were making the stuff for free or not. You could easily just set up a gate to a place where whatever it is is just naturally abundant and warp around with it. In short, could this work? Yes, but there is no reason why anyone would actually want to set this up short of some munchkin player that wants "uber l33t moniez".
aelryinth 11-11-06, 04:58 PM	well, your last line is completely wrong. Anyone liking fresh stuff and convenience would LOVE to set this up, and they are willing to pay for it. Airships cost the same amount per distance traveled that teleports do...except they take longer. So, do you want to blow four days taking an airship ride, or be there in an hour, all for the same amount of money? And of course only the rich will use it...but they will use it a lot. And unlike an airship, you have UNLIMITED use of the circle. You can ship thousands of tons of stuff and people per day, if you set it up to do so. You can make on volume far, far more then what any airship can do...and you don't have the huge overhead. So, eh! Investing in a circle would be a cash cow...getting a loan, perhaps from the other party members, would be easy enough, and its a truly viable means of earning an income with precious little work required once it is established. ===Aelryinth