Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Phist 01-12-06, 11:38 PM	I am an abusive changeling player. I have found in past campaigns that I am basicly unstoppable as a changeling. I've played shifters and warforged since, and now I'm DMing, but in the near future my campaign will be finished and I'll be back on the player side of the table-as a changeling. I know firsthand exactly what a changeling can do if he has a high enough diguise/bluff bonus and a permissive alignment (NE ftw). Access to restricted areas is obvious, also no crime you commit can ever be pinned on you by a witness(if your smart, you're never in your normal form), you can take the form of a shopkeeper's friends to try for a discount. But these things are only the tip of the iceberg. You want revenge on someone, impersonate them and get thrown out of every restaurant in town. Start fights in the street. Or even go so far as to become a person's dream lover, slowly take over their life over the course of years and then on the wedding day, reveal yourself as a changeling, so they know that the perfect future they thought they'd have will never happen. So, while it doesn't matter for me as a DM(I have no changeling players) and before I play one again, how would the people of Eberron guard against such behavior by changelings? Especially when True Seeing is hard to come by and things that normally work on Disguise Self fail because the effect isn't an illusion.
Kinger 01-13-06, 12:08 AM	Remember that a changeling's disguise isn't infallible. A Changeling isn't Mystique until they've got 15 ranks in the skill, at least. Remember the bonuses people get to Spot. If you try and disguise yourself as an associate of a shopkeep, he gets a +6 bonus to his Spot against you. Guards might take Recognize Imposter and get a big bonus to spot against you, too. Also note that a changeling's clothes don't change with him. You may look and smell like a Cultist of the Dragon Below, but if you don't have the Official Dirty Cloak of Regular Humanoid Sacrifices they're not going to let you into the temple. Also, just remember that people you fool with a disguise aren't Charmed or anything, they can still say "No, I can't let you in, fellow Daask gang member who I've never seen before, because Cavallah will skin me if I do!" Changelings aren't unknown in the world. People are quite aware they exist, and I'm sure that most take precautions against them if they need to (ie: relying less on how a person looks and more on the documents he has with him, the passwords he knows, that sort of thing). There's the rub, there. If you get burned and don't look like the guy on your passport, you're done!
Edymnion 01-13-06, 12:35 AM	Yeah, even with maxxed out ranks in Disguise, its still pretty easy to spot you as a changling. Remember, the ability boils down to nothing more than a +10 to Disguise. Read the Disguise skill, and you will see that you will get some nasty penalties racked up pretty quickly. -2 for appearing to be another race (which you will always be doing, unless you're disguising yourself as another changling in their default form). -2 for appearing to be another gender -2 for every age catagory differance And the onlookers get major bonuses to their checks if they're even slightly familiar with what you are supposed to be. Plus there are feats like Spot Imposter that make it easier to spot you. Plus any Ranger with Favored Enemy: Changling is going to get bonuses to spot you. Basically, if the changling tries to look differant from their true form, they wrack up massive penalties to their Disguise roll. And if they try to do anything but pass as "another face in the crowd", the spotter gets massive bonuses to their Spot check. And in a setting where everyone KNOWS that changlings exist, and what they can do, no guard is going to just give you a once over and let you in when they're guarding something important. They're going to look you over real good, and most likely ask you for passwords and some personal information to make sure you are you. They know changlings are out there, and they know to prepare for them. Being a lvl 1 urban ranger with favored enemy Changling, the Spot Imposter feat, and maxxed out Spot is going to make you be in very high demand as a guard for secure locations. Changlings can't just pass undetected without anyone thinking twice about it like they could in other settings. This is Eberron. People know you're out there, and they are on the watch for you. And since you can't take 10 or 20 on a Disguise check, and you are always assumed to THINK you did a good job, you can't just keep making checks until you get it right. You get one roll, and if you roll a 1, well tough luck. Without at least a full body mirror and time to study yourself, you won't even know that you screwed something up until it's too late.
MobiusKlein 01-13-06, 01:20 AM	That's why you should also max out your Forgery skill! Also, I don't believe Disguise will change how you smell, so a Changeling could be tracked that way. I also assume that a well trained dog could smell the difference between various races.
Phist 01-13-06, 01:37 AM	True, but consider it like this: At level 5(likely starting level for Eberron) I can have 8 ranks, +10 from Shape Change, +2 Synergy from Bluff, and to stretch it I take Deciteful at 1st level. That gives me a total of +22 to disguise. Assuming I roll a 1(w/o crit fail rules) I still beat an average roll(10) from a commoner when I'm a friend who is a different race, gender and age catagory from me. It's not perfect, but it's close. And an unlikely fail can be offset by a good bluff check, so it's not the end of the world then either. And unless I've totally bombed it, I can always just swear at the guy and tell him that I'll be back with ID in a moment, thus extracting myself from the situation. And it still doesn't do anything to stop the stratigy of turning into just another face in the crowd so I can do basicly whatever I want and as long as I get away from the crime scene, I'm safe.
Bluebrush 01-13-06, 03:00 AM	The problem with the face in the crowd thing is that your clothes still don't change. And bear in mind magic is commonly used in everyday life. Knowing changelings exist, secure locations probably have magic items designed to detect changelings.
Straylight 01-13-06, 03:17 AM	Sounds like you're playing under a DM who isn't as strong as he should be, Phist. I let my changeling players get away with a lot so long as it's conducive to the game, but the moment they start causing the sort of trouble you look to be up to, I'll crack down hard on it. It's like Edy said: people in this world KNOW that Changelings exist, even if your DM doesn't. The people of the world are aware of what Changelings can do, and are on the lookout for them. There are more ways to detect or counter them than I can list here, but Edy already did a pretty good job. Your example with the commoner may hold true, but remember that the world isn't populated with 1st level Commoners. It's populated by a large percentage of people who have at least a few levels in NPC classes and some with a level or two in PC classes, and the sorts of people that the PCs are going to tend to interact with are, generally speaking, going to be rightfully skilled individuals in their own right, even if they aren't PC-caliber characters. Sure, your ability may be able to fool the street peddler in Lower Dura (Com 2) or the shop owner in Middle Menthis (Expert 2), but what is a PC going to get that is of any real value to them from those places? No, the PC is going to be interested in that mithril buckler in that weapon and armor imports shop in Middle Central, but a place like that isn't going to be run by a lone clerk -no, there's Kundarak wards on the display cases, Deneith guards (Human War 2) at the doors and the owner herself (Elf Magewright 6/Expert 3/Sorcerer 1), who has not only made much of what is available in the shop, but knows how to USE some of it quite well, too.
Kalanth 01-13-06, 03:35 AM	Straylight is right. Many of the good shops in Sharn, and the bigger cities for that matter, have wards available to them, alarms set to prevent the theft or at least get them noticed, and people of skill in them. As DM I might allow a guard to fall for the "Face in the crowd with similiar clothes" once, but if I keep allowing them to fail it then shame on me. Eventually I will just have to say you are noticed without even tossing the dice, because it's just unreasonable to assume everyone will come across a man in the same outfit and let them go. So many times it has been said, but bears repeating, everyone knows Changelings exsist, unless you are trying to fool a person between the ages of 0 - 2 years of age. Your DM's need to strengthen their skills in this area because you are getting away with much to much, even with good scores. In my Eberron it is not uncommon to enter the best shops and each will have wards of True Seeing throughout, along with the banquet halls and all major halls where the attendence of a major political player is necessary. No changeling will be slipping into the obvious areas to do the deed, they need to think harder than that to get their target.
Just another user 01-13-06, 04:01 AM	True, but consider it like this: At level 5(likely starting level for Eberron) wrong. starting a 5th level in eberron it is like starting at 15th level in the forgotten realms. now, I don't know how do you play usually, but I don't think it happen so often to call it "likely". And even if is then what? so at 5th level you can fool a 1st level commoner, wow, big deal, really heroic, every 2nd level bard can do the same.
Edymnion 01-13-06, 02:09 PM	Not to mention that any merchant with magical goods of any value for sale is going to not only have the standard wards and alarms in place, but they will very likely have at least some magical glasses that give them bonuses to spot. And after all, +10 to Spot isn't really *THAT* expensive, when you're making a living off of selling magical gear. Especially if you're a magewright or artificer that can make it yourself. Which means that the +10 to disguise from being a changling is totally negated. Maxxed out Spot versus maxxed out Disguise, Spot Imposter vs. Decietful... congrats, it still comes down to nothing more than a straight up opposed dice roll. And if you're looking at somebody that knows who is and is not supposed to be there, they're getting a +4 to their Spot, while you're taking at LEAST a -2 to your Disguise. Against an equal level opponent that has spent as much effort to spot changlings as you have put into not being spotted, you get at best a 50-50 chance, and at worst, you'll never get by. The guard dog or other creature with Scent is a great idea too. Only way to get past that one would be that Racial Emulation feat from RoE, or a scentbreaker (which EVERYONE could smell, and would be a dead giveaway). Basically, being a Changling only lets you get by commoners and half-sleepy guards. Anyone who is actively looking you over stands a very good chance of spotting you, unless you're just so much higher of a level that there really isn't much point in fooling them anyway.
Mr.$mith 01-13-06, 02:47 PM	To the same effect that every single shop owner is going to have a +10 spot item couldnt the changeling player just...oh I dont know, buy a +10 disguise item? Thus re-shifting the balance back to their side?
rockrodent 01-13-06, 03:14 PM	I dunno, in the admittedly small games I've run where changlings were present, changling were good (excellent, even, lol) at getting into places they werent supposed to be. BUT, they only got really good at it after maxxing out all the relevant skills. Like Edy said, the penelties rack up pretty quick. It basically boils down to this: Changlings are good at the whole spy-game, thats exactly what they do. Just like the Warforged kick ass in combat, and dwarves can make the best stonework, it's not game-breaking, it just happens to be that races particular strength. And when it's built upon and exploited, it just gets better.
DarkWarriorKarg 01-13-06, 03:22 PM	Isn't there a 'Detect Shapechanger' in either RoE or MoE (and now in the compendium)?
Tevin Kevlak 01-13-06, 03:57 PM	"Isn't there a 'Detect Shapechanger' in either RoE or MoE" No, there is a Detect Abberrations in the ECS. Now then, your average city guard is not going to stand a chance against spotting a Changeling who doesn't want to be spotted. For one, if your a city guard your wisdom score is most likely lacking, not to mention that the Spot skill is cross-class for all NPC classes save for the Aristrocrat and, if taken, the Expert. Even then it says in the ECS that most Experts work in churches as acolytes and seldomly have Spot as one of their skill choices. So level 2 Changeling rogue cha 14 vs. level 2 human Warrior wis 12 (that's fairly generous). Changeling Bluff modifier +21 or +19 while imitating another race (5 ranks, 2 synergy Bluff, 2 Decietful, 2 charisma, 10 racial) vs. Warrior Spot modifier +8 (2.5 ranks, 1 wisdom, 3 Skill Focus Spot, 2 Alertness). As you can see, it's not even close. The changeling has more than twice the guards Spot modifier... he'd still have more than twice his modifier without spending feats (deceitful) while the Human Warrior is now fully geared towards nothing but spotting. Now, sure if your Changeling PC is disrupting the campaign by screwing around like the above examples then either ask him to stop or sick a high level Blood Hound NPC on his trail, or have a city official aquire the services of a high level Diviner to find him and then send the city watch after him... don't just say that random guard number 3 automatically passes his exceedingly difficult spot check or that all shop owners have magical +10 spot glasses. There are ways to deal with in-game situtations in-game without pitting the entire campaign setting against one of the characters.
Rechan 01-13-06, 04:49 PM	You know, this gives me an idea. Everyone keeps bringing up 'Your clothes are the same!" My changeling took some cash and 1) spent it on a bag of holding and then 100gp of various clothes. 2) Took some time to get some reversable clothing; cloaks and the like that look different when turned inside out, for quick changes. But, that just doesn't cut it half the time. So, why not go to the heart of the matter? How much would it cost to have a set of clothes enchanted to change with you? Basically function as a Hat of disguise, but 1) only works on clothes (limiting factor) and 2) Is a slotless item (as it would cover most of your body but would effect all of your equipment; transversely, it could count as say, a vest slot or something).
Yogo 01-13-06, 05:09 PM	In Magic of Eberron, there is a Spell called 'Discern Shapchanger'. It's merely a level 3 Spell, so most serious Shopkeepers an official Places will have some Protection like this... As long as you don't allow the PC's to make their own +30 or so Items, everything seems fine...
Raziel_Brokodar 01-13-06, 06:00 PM	Also note that a changeling's clothes don't change with him. No, but that's what a "Vestment of Many Styles" is for (RoE) :D
Heian_d'Phiarlan 01-13-06, 06:15 PM	Or even go so far as to become a person's dream lover, slowly take over their life over the course of years and then on the wedding day, reveal yourself as a changeling, so they know that the perfect future they thought they'd have will never happen. Hahahaha, you've read The Elemmentals, haven't you? By the way, this seems like a really devious vengeance against a PC. And if you add a child to the mix...
Kinger 01-13-06, 06:53 PM	In Magic of Eberron, there is a Spell called 'Discern Shapchanger'. It's merely a level 3 Spell, so most serious Shopkeepers an official Places will have some Protection like this... As long as you don't allow the PC's to make their own +30 or so Items, everything seems fine... I'm looking in Magic of Eberron right now... And I can't see it anywhere. I think you might have your sourcebooks mistaken.
DoveArrow 01-13-06, 06:55 PM	Do you want to know the easiest way to thwart these kinds of problems in game? Disallow player characters with an evil alignment.
johnkretzer 01-13-06, 07:02 PM	I don't get it yes this player had a very weak GM but what i the point of playing a changeling if you can't have some fun once in awhile. The way you people are going on minor shape change is useless. Since changelings are so common people spend lots of money or train to deal with it. Fine I can accept that. Just one question though why would anyone want to play a changeling in any of your games? Just play a albino humen. To the orginal poster: If you don't want to be so disgusting as a changeling play a wizard or some other class that doesn't get disguise or bluff as class skills. Also don't play NE or any evil for that matter. Hell play LG or something like that.
Gurv 01-13-06, 07:08 PM	Changelings are awesome. If I could be any D&D race, it would be a changeling. But it sounds like your DM wasn't trying hard enough. For every single point you made, a point could be made that the inhabitants of Eberron (knowing the dangers of unchecked changelings) would counter it with something. As you gain levels and ranks and synergy bonuses, you should be facing opposition that likewise gain ranks and bonuses to Spot, Sense Motive, and other such skills. A 1st level commoner shouldn't notice what a 5th level changeling is up to. But one common mistake about commoners (no pun intended) is that they are all 1st level. Although Eberron is supposed to only have sparse numbers of high level PC-classed individuals, no such thing has ever been said about those individuals with NPC classes. A guard outside a Kundarak bank should be a warrior of mid-levels. Such a professional should have as many ranks in Spot, Listen, Sense Motive, etc, as well as the Alertness feat. He should also have equipment that reflects his CR, and that equipment should be geared towards doing his job. Lastly, although changelings getting discounts by pretending to be someone else might not be considered a priority by crime watchers, there are many things that are a priority. Any place where security might be a real issue will have taken all the needed steps. People with comparative skill modifiers, as well as magic designed for the purpose will be in use. In short, your changeling should get away with all that minor stuff: discounts, pickpocketing, and even making the local sheriff look like a jerk in public. Heck, I wouldn't even roll dice for most of that. But when dealing with problems that are an equal challenge to the character's level, the Disguise skills of even a changeling should be put to the test. Your DM failed to present appropriate challenges. It's the same thing as a 5th level fighter facing 1st level foes. Of course he can defeat all the warriors in his home village. But it isn't what he is supposed to be doing with his heroic careers, is it?
DoveArrow 01-13-06, 07:18 PM	I don't get it yes this player had a very weak GM but what i the point of playing a changeling if you can't have some fun once in awhile. The way you people are going on minor shape change is useless. Since changelings are so common people spend lots of money or train to deal with it. Fine I can accept that. Just one question though why would anyone want to play a changeling in any of your games? Just play a albino humen. To the orginal poster: If you don't want to be so disgusting as a changeling play a wizard or some other class that doesn't get disguise or bluff as class skills. Also don't play NE or any evil for that matter. Hell play LG or something like that. I don't think that anyone is trying to thwart the abilities of changelings. People are simply pointing out their limitations. Since that was what the original poster was asking about, I don't see where this objection is coming from.
Phist 01-13-06, 07:30 PM	Yes, my DM was pretty weaksauce. That's why I'm DMing now. But when I go back to the other side of the table, it's with a DM who has a brain in his head. My character is a Changeling Warlock(that combo was just made to be), so I have even more I can tack onto bluff and disguise. My character is CG so most of these situations won't happen, but he is prone to occasional breakdowns where he gives in to the demonic voice in his head, and when that happens, there are no rules. Hahahaha, you've read The Elemmentals, haven't you?Actually, I haven't. That twisted plan was no one's but my own. Sounds like I might enjoy that book though. No, but that's what a "Vestment of Many Styles" is for (RoE)Bought. I've previously just been using several suits of reversable clothing. So what's the final word on that spell? Does it exist?
Korhal_IV 01-13-06, 07:35 PM	The Magic Vestment spell says you can drop it on people's clothes, so if you extrapolate that to other special armor effects, you could get glamered clothing. Rounding a corner, you take a mere minute to think and everything about you changes...
Just another user 01-13-06, 07:48 PM	So what's the final word on that spell? Does it exist? I remember a spell like that, but I don't remember where I read it, complete arcane maybe?
Kalanth 01-13-06, 08:39 PM	What about Glamerweave? Isn't that supposed to be able to shift somewhat for the benefit of multiple outfits? Or did my old DM just play that one wrong?
Vikjunk 01-13-06, 08:44 PM	So what's the final word on that spell? Does it exist? The spell is in Races of Eberron. But the major weakness of the spell is that the shopkeeper or other character would have to suspect something is up since it takes a standard action of concentration to know if they are a shapechanger and it's range is only 60 feet.
johnkretzer 01-13-06, 09:19 PM	My objection is quite simple the oringal poster pretty much ask how do stop me from abusing the rules. Everyone else(except you I hadn't read your post because I was typing my post when you posted) pretty much started to give everyone in their gameworld the power to stop changelings. Which means their are in place and well a innocent changeling can't do crap because one player abused it. The answear is simple: Don't do it. " My character is CG so most of these situations won't happen, but he is prone to occasional breakdowns where he gives in to the demonic voice in his head, and when that happens, there are no rules." I don't know in my game world a CG warlock powers are from a fey heritage so I don't know about "demonic voices".
Raziel_Brokodar 01-13-06, 09:19 PM	What about Glamerweave? Isn't that supposed to be able to shift somewhat for the benefit of multiple outfits? Or did my old DM just play that one wrong? I guess so, because Glamerweave clothing only gives a +1 on Diplomacy. The shifting only makes the clothing more striking and 'strangely' beatutiful. :P
Wrathamon 01-13-06, 10:19 PM	The way I read their ability was that if there is a reason to be suspcious then its a +10 to disguise, otherwise there is no other reason to think that Orc is a changeling, unless they are tipped off for some reason. Or, did I read it wrong?
johnkretzer 01-13-06, 11:15 PM	You are proably thinking of shiftweave which cjanges into any 5 outfits.
Kalanth 01-14-06, 12:53 AM	The way I read their ability was that if there is a reason to be suspcious then its a +10 to disguise, otherwise there is no other reason to think that Orc is a changeling, unless they are tipped off for some reason. Or, did I read it wrong? I think its supposed to always be a +10 to their disguise check. But really, you do make a point in there as well. The DM should not be gunning for the Changeling right off the bat. Let the player make a mistake and expose themselves. If they want to pretend to be someone well known and don't act just as that person would act, people will notice soon enough. I usually do a Bluff check every in game hour to see if the character slips up in their manerisms. You are proably thinking of shiftweave which cjanges into any 5 outfits. Yes, that is it, that is what I meant. That is a changelings best friend short of clothing that has limitless changes.
Ivelios2 01-14-06, 03:12 AM	Well since we seem to be using Sharn as an example i think people are forgetting the nigh unforgable I.D. papers people have. These papers arent in the game just for flavor at any high security area guards are trained to examine the individual and these papers if you dont have your papers it dosent matter how good your disguise is or how well you bluff because the guards simply arent listening cause thats exactly how they have been trained. Hell in my world if somone tried to bluff their way past having papers they would immediatly be detained as a suspected spy because everyone who is supposed to be there would know better then to try to bluff past not having them. Now on the other hand depending on exactly what area you are trying to get into if you lifted somones papers id still give the guard a spotcheck cause thats what they are there for but beyond that your good. But keep in mind as others have stated above really protected areas will have magical defences that you simply cant disguise past. Like if a changling tried to walk into the heart of house cannith id laugh for a few minutes then have him captured because of the many alarms/wards/passwords/constructs/wizards that he simply wouldent be able to get past.
Phist 01-14-06, 03:23 AM	Don't forget that the papers work both ways. Yeah, you're hard to believe without them, but if somehow(forgery, pickpocketing or just murder) you DO get someone's ID, the guards would probably overlook a few oddities in their personality. After all, what's the point of IDs if the guards don't believe in them? And in fairness, Sharn is(with the possible exception of the Mror Holds) one of the hardest places for a Changeling to have their way with the masses.
Dex 01-14-06, 05:54 AM	Errm... it seems you guys overlooked a very critical component in the problem PC's behaviour. He's evil. Any 1st level paladin, cleric, or adept can cast the detect evil spell. Granted, alignment is sposed to be more fluid in Ebberon, and there are spells to counter this, but the temple guards aren't going to let an evil creature in, no matter how nicely they smile. Something to scan visitors to the temple as evil or not could be wizzed up by an artificer in like two days' work. On the flipside, the changeling in my campaign has a set of glamoured leather armour - the best clothing disguise IMO provided they don't touch you. It appears how you want it and even gives you an AC bonus.
Just another user 01-14-06, 09:15 AM	I think its supposed to always be a +10 to their disguise check. But really, you do make a point in there as well. The DM should not be gunning for the Changeling right off the bat. Let the player make a mistake and expose themselves. If they want to pretend to be someone well known and don't act just as that person would act, people will notice soon enough. I usually do a Bluff check every in game hour to see if the character slips up in their manerisms. But isn't "failing to act as the person as you're disguised" essentially failing the disguise check?. if it is not, then how it is different?
Just another user 01-14-06, 09:46 AM	Errm... it seems you guys overlooked a very critical component in the problem PC's behaviour. He's evil. Any 1st level paladin, cleric, or adept can cast the detect evil spell. Granted, alignment is sposed to be more fluid in Ebberon, and there are spells to counter this, but the temple guards aren't going to let an evil creature in, no matter how nicely they smile. Something to scan visitors to the temple as evil or not could be wizzed up by an artificer in like two days' work. In eberron the no alignemt limit don't work only for the priests, you can worship the blood of Vol and be good, you can be a devout (sp) follower of Dol arrah and be evil. These are not the Realms. there are not enough paladins, or ever cleric, to put in front of every temple, and while you can have a magic item to cast detect evil at will, it would cost 3000gp, not too much for an adventurer, but for an average citizen (or priest) those are a lot of money (one fo the worse problem of D&D, IMO, is that you tend to forget how much are really worth one thousand gold pieces) expecially if you have to put one in every temple. So, to sum it up, i don't think it would work.
Lord Psynister 01-14-06, 09:49 AM	Personally? If I were trying to stop a changeling, I'd stick a sword through his face. However, in a situation like this, just make sure you're using all of the rules here. As Edymnion pointed out, their bonuses really aren't all that great once you throw in all the massive penalties they take too. It's not as easy as it seems.
Vikjunk 01-14-06, 10:26 AM	In eberron the no alignemt limit don't work only for the priests, you can worship the blood of Vol and be good, you can be a devout (sp) follower of Dol arrah and be evil. These are not the Realms. there are not enough paladins, or ever cleric, to put in front of every temple, and while you can have a magic item to cast detect evil at will, it would cost 3000gp, not too much for an adventurer, but for an average citizen (or priest) those are a lot of money (one fo the worse problem of D&D, IMO, is that you tend to forget how much are really worth one thousand gold pieces) expecially if you have to put one in every temple. So, to sum it up, i don't think it would work. And what is truly sad is an Eternal Wand of Undetectable Alignment, remember Bard spells are Arcane too, is only 820 gold pieces. There went the cleric and paladin’s ability to detect your alignment even if the player ran into them.
Just another user 01-14-06, 12:31 PM	And what is truly sad is an Eternal Wand of Undetectable Alignment, remember Bard spells are Arcane too, is only 820 gold pieces. There went the cleric and paladin’s ability to detect your alignment even if the player ran into them. About that, I see Eternal wands as essentialy military hardware, in that: a- they are not something you can buy into a shop; b- they are still experimental, there are not eternal wand of any spells you can think of, because in most case they don't know how to do them; c- some kind of EW simply were never made. The eternal wands were made so magewright in military units could expand their spell arsenal without need to bring around precious wizards. , I can see why a magewright on the battlefield could need fireball, magic missile or repair damage or cure wounds, but I can't why he would need undetectable alignement.
Euangelion 01-14-06, 12:44 PM	...there are not enough paladins, or ever cleric, to put in front of every temple, and while you can have a magic item to cast detect evil at will, it would cost 3000gp... One thing that a temple could do, especially of a somewhat organized religion, is cast hallow on the site, and tie detect evil to the spell. Granted not every temple is going to have someone who can cast the spell, but I could see one or two people in the whole religion whose job it is to travel around to the various temples, renewing their hallow spells every year. But on the other hand you are absolutely right, since detect evil doesn't really tell you much as it doesn't reveal why/how they are evil. A temple of Dol Arrah isn't going to want to keep out the NE follower of Kol Korran, since they're part of the same religion. How to stop a changeling? The Recognize Imposter feat is a good start.
Kalanth 01-14-06, 02:02 PM	But isn't "failing to act as the person as you're disguised" essentially failing the disguise check?. if it is not, then how it is different? It is different, but not by much. The disguise, as I see it, is only how one looks. Are the features the same, the clothing, the hair styles, and so on. The Bluff comes in to cover the rest, how they talk, how they walk, move, and so on. Yeah, I can see tucking it all under one skill check, but to me it does not seem as accurate that way.
Phist 01-14-06, 03:31 PM	It is different, but not by much. The disguise, as I see it, is only how one looks. Are the features the same, the clothing, the hair styles, and so on. The Bluff comes in to cover the rest, how they talk, how they walk, move, and so on. Yeah, I can see tucking it all under one skill check, but to me it does not seem as accurate that way. I run disguise the same way. If you let disguise cover anything other than visual, the line blurs too much. The way I see it, disguise opposes Spot, and Bluff opposes Sense Motive, basicly without exception.
Vikjunk 01-14-06, 05:54 PM	About that, I see Eternal wands as essentialy military hardware, in that: a- they are not something you can buy into a shop; b- they are still experimental, there are not eternal wand of any spells you can think of, because in most case they don't know how to do them; c- some kind of EW simply were never made. The eternal wands were made so magewright in military units could expand their spell arsenal without need to bring around precious wizards. , I can see why a magewright on the battlefield could need fireball, magic missile or repair damage or cure wounds, but I can't why he would need undetectable alignement. They might have started out as military hardware but that doesn't mean that the magewright's and artificer's haven't passed on the knowledge to make them after the war was over. And an Eternal Wand of Undetectable Alignment could have been given to Changeling spies, since having their cover blown from a simple spell would be quite deadly for them. And after the war I could see a few of the makers of the eternal wands selling their services to different thieves and assassin organizations to make a profit. I’m sure that the organizations would be quite willing to pay the magic item makers quite well for their services since it would be a good way to attract new members and keep existing members out of jail or killed. The wands might be rare but I could see a demand for them if the player is welling to take the time to look for it. And even if the player couldn’t find one I’m sure they could find an unscrupulous Artificer that would be willing to make the wand for the player if he went to a place like Sharn or any large city of a decent size.
Endless_Helix 01-14-06, 06:21 PM	Changeling Warlocks can't be tracked by smell if they've taken Entropic Warding as one of their invocations, which makes them very, very powerful :angelhide Discern Shapeshifter is in RoE. Changelings could beat it by being a Shifter, but most shops that could afford discern shapeshifter items and guards that have recognize imposter aren't going to be overly receptive to shifters. Also, Changelings aren't even a serious fraction of the population of Sharn. Odds are that you may never even meet a changeling in say, the Karrnath or Thrane countryside. Even in the bigger cities of those countries Changelings aren't available in huge numbers. Sharn has the largest single population of Changelings on Khorvaire as I've seen in the stats, and even then it's about 2% of Sharn's 250000+. Average people generally are going to dismiss such fears because they usually aren't in danger from being impersonated. Frankly, unless you're really desperate, are you going to want to pretend to be Joe Blow or Count ir Wynarn, to get money?
Just another user 01-14-06, 08:18 PM	They might have started out as military hardware but that doesn't mean that the magewright's and artificer's haven't passed on the knowledge to make them after the war was over. And an Eternal Wand of Undetectable Alignment could have been given to Changeling spies, since having their cover blown from a simple spell would be quite deadly for them. In your game you can do what you want, I was saying how would have done it. In my games EWs are a well guarded secret of house Cannith, they sell the wands, not how they are done, except maybe in a recipe sort of way ("you do this,this and this and you have a eternal wand") without enough informations to "reverse engineering" it and make different ones. And personally I find weird than a spy had levels in magewrigth and if hadn't would not be easier give him a Wondrous item with a permanent UA effect rather than a wand?
johnkretzer 01-14-06, 08:45 PM	Also what are these massive penalties to disguise if you are just blending into the crowd you people are talking about? As long as you take Racial Emmulation feat from RoE and don't change your age or gender you get no penalties for it and with shiftweave or glamered armor you change clothing also.(And shiftweave is only 500gp), but the problem here isn't the rules as much as the player. I mean any class or race can be this problematic if abused. A 5th level anything walking into your average Eberron small village could proably rule it.
Pocalem 01-14-06, 08:47 PM	I am an abusive changeling player. If you know your gonna abuse it, why play it? It's prolly gonna detract fun from the game for others if you're just going to be powergaming it.
aelryinth 01-14-06, 08:47 PM	Also, kindlynote that all these wonderful, pricey magical supplements to your disguise make you glow like a lightbulb to a level 0 Detect Magic. You're spending a lot of gold to accomplish something that can be foiled relatively cheaply...or are you going to spend MORE money to add Non-Detection to this pricey suite of magic items you are assembling? IF so, we are talking higher levels, and a simple dweeb isn't going to catch you regardless. But if you go into an adventuring situation with all your gold spent on disguise supplements, you are going to have your own problems. ==Aerlyinth
DragonOnMyShoulder 01-14-06, 09:01 PM	When a player is abusing a rule, there is a simple rule of thump for Game Masters: "What the players can do, the GM can do better" :P just kidding About stoping a changeling. You have lost of possibilities, magic, feats, animals (with scent), etc. As mentined is the posts above me. The rules aren't brokken or anything, its all about how you play the game. example In my own game i let the changelign use her Minor Change Shape to its fulest. I do not however, just let her go into a shop and pick whatever she likes. Then she can be pretty sure to meet a +10 glass of detect Changeling or something similiar :D If she wanna rob a shop or do many of the things discuesed in this thread, she will need to do her research first (and this particular changeling likes to steal a lot). One time she didn't do her research, and ended finding out that the Items had alarm spells cast on em :D Another time she took the time to do the research, and found out that, this paticualy shop had a specilised item that used Disern Shapeshifter every 10 rounds on every one in the shop. Well she pulled of the con act so well that she even managed to get that item :eek:
MobiusKlein 01-14-06, 09:10 PM	For one, Changelings! There are various guilds / organized crime groups that use, or are run by Changelines. They won't take kindly to the competition. Sure, do it a few times, you might get away with it. But soon, they'll be after you to 'join' and 'pay dues' and 'stop messing with THEIR racket'. In small towns, most folks know each other. If you impersonate a particular person, you better know them well, since everybody else does. (IE More chances for Bluff checks.) If you come as a stranger, they may just be suspiscious to begin with. Also, if you trave with a group, they probably are not all changelings. . . All in all, it's just one trick, that is similar to a first level spell. It can't be your only trick.
Inkling 01-14-06, 11:26 PM	If we can turn this into the CO board for a second, I think we can make an invincible changeling at only 5th level. A 5th level Bard would probably be best. Disguise skill +8 Bluff synergy +2 shape change +10 18 charisma +4 Hat of Disguise (1800gp) +10 Deceitful feat +2 Vestment of Many Styles (500gp) (+2 depending on circumstances) Forged papers (+2 depending on circumstances) = Total: +36 to +40 to Disguise! And that's before buying any expensive items like custom +10 competence items or Circlets of Persuasion. Eliminating penalties and unfortunate circumstances: * Glamored Armor, Hat of Disguise, and/or Vestment of Many Styles to change clothes at will. * Changeling's shape change ability includes olfactory (smell) disguises too (according to unofficial Keith Baker, I don't know if that's in anything "official" though). Although I would say that unless the changeling used Scent spell on his target before he imitated him, he would take a -2 penalty for not being sure of the right smell. * Racial Emulation feat eliminates different race penalty. * Nystuls Magic Aura (duration 1 day/level) hides the magic aura of each of your magic items. * Undetectable Alignment lasts 24 hours and completely fools Detect Evil/Good/Law/Chaos. If the detector was looking for Evil, he wouldnt find it but if he used Detect Good and the person the changeling is imitating is Good, then the detector should figure something is wrong: "With my Detect Good spell, the result is negative...hmm, I know that Keith the Baker is Good, so this can't be Keith...". * However, Misrepresent Alignment is totally effective for the changeling in the above scenario. * Non-Detection and/or Cloak of Khyber spell (Dragon #337, Lords of Dust) should thwart Discern Shapechanger. * An Eternal Wand of Cloak of Khyber spell (Dragon #337, Lords of Dust) thwarts True Seeing. * Take the Disguise Spell feat and hide the fact that you're casting Charm Person and/or Suggestion on the magic shop keeper while you're telling him a great story you just heard (Perform(oratory)). * Bardic Knowledge or Knowledge (local) to know any little tidbits needed to stay in character. * Always pin the dirty deed on someone without an alibi: give the "attack dogs" someone to chew up!
Lazzar 01-15-06, 12:36 AM	I guess so, because Glamerweave clothing only gives a +1 on Diplomacy. The shifting only makes the clothing more striking and 'strangely' beatutiful. :P Its called Shift weave and can store 5 differnt outfits. Its in the sharn book. The way to stop a changling is to assume everyone is one. Any guard or shopkeeper with enough persistance can find you out, if that's their main goal in life. Its also been said that a large percentage of eberron is above Pc level 1. Defintatly not true. And I read it somehwhere that there are no NPC's in Sharn above 9th or so level. Most people are not experts or adepts, they are just plain folks. As for spot checks, It is highly doubtfull that any NPC's spot check can beat a maxed out changling disguise at 5th level or above. Even true seeing is not a sure thing, as true seeing does not see through makeup, clothing, false teath, ears. etc, which is all part of the disguise skill. Simply wear a mask (to hide a scared face), true seeing is usless. Just as in real life if someone is determined to see if every person is a changling, they will. It is highly unlikely that a person will "spot" a determined rogue changling. Most PC's or NPCs simply don't have the skill points to max out spot. A chagling rogue gets 10+ int bonus per level, compared to 2 + int bonus for some classes. If you have a rogue/wiz changling with a disguise self cast on him, that's another +10. Good luck spotting one of those, especially with a high dimpomicy and bluff skills. What is your PC's Sense motive skill? I'll bet most of you, its pretty low. SAme for NPC's. Changlings can just bluff right by them, even if they somehow spot a minor glitch in the disguise. Persistance & determination is the best way to stop a changling. Laz
Lazzar 01-15-06, 12:42 AM	Well since we seem to be using Sharn as an example i think people are forgetting the nigh unforgable I.D. papers people have. These papers arent in the game just for flavor at any high security area guards are trained to examine the individual and these papers if you dont have your papers it dosent matter how good your disguise is or how well you bluff because the guards simply arent listening cause thats exactly how they have been trained. Hell in my world if somone tried to bluff their way past having papers they would immediatly be detained as a suspected spy because everyone who is supposed to be there would know better then to try to bluff past not having them. Now on the other hand depending on exactly what area you are trying to get into if you lifted somones papers id still give the guard a spotcheck cause thats what they are there for but beyond that your good. But keep in mind as others have stated above really protected areas will have magical defences that you simply cant disguise past. Like if a changling tried to walk into the heart of house cannith id laugh for a few minutes then have him captured because of the many alarms/wards/passwords/constructs/wizards that he simply wouldent be able to get past. Papers are easily purchased. Page 15 Sharn Book. Also a trip to the Tyrants and 100gp, will get you some help most likely. Ident papers are a joke. Got high enough forgey skill, jsut do it your self.
Kalanth 01-15-06, 01:28 AM	Papers are easily purchased. Page 15 Sharn Book. Also a trip to the Tyrants and 100gp, will get you some help most likely. Ident papers are a joke. Got high enough forgey skill, jsut do it your self. One guy I played with made different identification papers for all of his different persona's. Worked great for a while, until he started to get into trouble in each of those persona's. Not the sharpest knife in the droor. Saddest thing he ever said was about three months after playing the character. He looked at his list of persona's, which he had stopped using because of the trouble he kept getting into, and blurted out, "Who the hell is Eradus?" Now, Eradus was the main persona of this character, and he ran around under that name for two of the three months he played. We cheered the day he said he was going to "take a break from D&D."
MobiusKlein 01-15-06, 01:53 AM	Won't get you a local accent. Specific knowledge that the target would have. Even if Scent disguise is covered, I would not allow somebody to disguise a sense they didn't posess. (Can't fake out the bloodhound unless you can smell as well as one.) A less permissive DM might not allow full stacking of the Hat of Disguise and the changeling ability, since the hat of disguise does body and clothes. Hat of disguise allows Will saves upon interaction. And a 3rd level eternal wand (I don't know the level of Cloak of Khyber) costs 10000+ gp. (Eternal wands must be arcane & no greater than 3rd level.) The Nystal's magic aura hides the magic item, but not the active magic effect: so detect magic will notice the active disguise spell, as well as the others. And when the Charm person fails, and they realize what's happened, and trigger the pit trap under you . . .
Chiyo 01-15-06, 09:15 AM	IMO changelings are pretty much humanoids with a built-in hat of disguise. You handle them the same way you handle PCs with that item (and that's fairly common considering the price). Anyway, in Eberron with all the changelings, people have taken steps unlike in other campaign settings to ensure identity. It's only natural. You can look like the storekeeper's friend but you won't have their signet ring. Even with forgery, if you have no idea of their signet ring look, you have no chance to forge it either. Guards are probably expert are finding counterfit IDs as well. The more money involved the higher the skill. The higher the stakes, the higher the chance that someone will see thru the disguise or someone will have magic help to do so. If player is abusive, abuse them back. Next time they go to that magic store, they run into a NPC who asks the merchant about an item he recently acquired. Merchant examines it with his goggles of true seeing spotting changeling. Says nothing but from now on, he knows changeling is trying to rob him blind. He thus sells him at a "special price". Force an opposed appraise roll (likely not as high for changeling), if he loses, he actually pays 20% higher price than book (no arguing from rule lawyers waving their PHB). Also remember that 5th level is starting to become popular and known. As PCs gain levels, they'll also become known for certain things including mannerisms. That might add circumstance modifiers from some NPCs who have heard about the PCs. Bottom line is DM controls everything. Let changeling get away with stuff when it fits your campaign goals, don't let them if it doesn't. If player is abusive, warn first, then let hammer fall. You don't want to ruin their fun of changing appearance constantly but it's still your game and if that trick becomes too much of a distraction/abuse, you draw the line. And you can be very expedient about it.
Endless_Helix 01-15-06, 09:30 AM	It's pretty simple to get around the smell thing if you're that paranoid. Oil of Cayenne Pepper if fed to a dog shuts off the dog's sense of smell without any visible signs for about four hours, and changeling warlocks can get around the smell thing with Entropic Warding. But the main point is that most people won't be looking for a changeling unless they have a reason. So if they feel that they are in danger of being impersonated, and they have the money they will seek out spells that can help defend against them. The one that I'm suprised no-one pointed out was (I think it's called) Retributive Shapeshifting, forcing the shapeshifter to shange shapes and change back. I think it also deals damage to the shapeshifter, but I'm not sure because RoE is at my friend's house right now. A wand of that for a conspiracy freak is going to be very useful, but it will cost a lot. I'm pretty sure that's almost fool-proof short of spell resistence. On a side note, Changeling Warlocks are ridiculously good spies. By fifth level they've go a Diguise modifier as good as or better than the bard, can't be tracked by smell, can convince a Rakshasa to marry a dragon, and at 6th level can cast Charm at will. On top of that they are completely capable of going into the Mindbender Class...
Phist 01-15-06, 12:19 PM	If you know your gonna abuse it, why play it? Because I enjoy it SO much. And no, the rest of my party will be powergaming much more overtly. In fact, that's the final piece to guard my changeling against his mistakes, a party that's subconsiously begging to hear the words. "Alright, fine, you caught me. Boys, kill em all." And I second the comments that Changeling Warlocks are some of the best spys around. Especially because on top of everything that has already been mentioned, they don't need to carry weapons or spell componants.
Inkling 01-15-06, 12:19 PM	I'm not sure there is a way to stop a changeling that's at least 6th level and has spent some time preparing forged signet rings and ID papers. I agree with Chiyo about the signet ring, I think that would be a perfect "noninvasive" way of identifying friend from foe. However, signet rings can be forged, so it is hardly foolproof. People in high price businesses, like the jewelry business, have their own unique jargon...I would think a changeling would have to have a decent Bardic Knowledge or Knowledge(local) to pose as a friend of a wealthy merchant for more than a minute or two. But if the changeling had ranks in Appraise, Craft(jewelry), Craft Wondrous Item, Bardic Knowledge, and Knowledge(local), I think he could blend in long enough to cause some trouble. I can't imagine a merchant firing a Wand of Discern Shapechanger or Force Shapechange at every customer, because he just wouldn't have customers for long. Would you go to shop where the merchant took a shot at you with some ray gun everytime you walked in the door? Especially if you had no ranks in Spellcraft and have no idea if he's really firing Discern Shapechanger at you or Suggestion? Also, those spells allow saves: all the changeling has to do is make the save and he won't be spotted. So that isn't foolproof either. Cloak of Khyber spell completely thwarts True Seeing (and Discern Shapechanger too I think), so even a custom magic item that gave a rich shopkeeper True Seeing at will would be fooled. If the shop keeper had a Medallion of Detect Thoughts, he could scan the changelings mind. But if the changeling has the Immersive Personality feat, the shopkeeper still won't find anything unusual. I'm not sure there is a way to stop a changeling that's at least 6th level and has spent some time preparing forged signet rings and ID papers.
Inkling 01-15-06, 12:36 PM	Wait, I got it! People of means would always buy signet rings with Arcane Marks from House Sivis. Those CAN'T be forged. Everyone who can afford them would wear those at all times and everyone would habitually check out each others' Sivis signet rings while shaking hands or engaging in conversation. So the changeling would have to steal someone's Arcane Mark signet ring before he could have a chance to impersonate him at close range with someone who knew him.
johnkretzer 01-16-06, 02:45 AM	Changeling psions make just as good spy if not better than changeling warlocks. Same advantages with the added bonuses of better options in powers.
johnkretzer 01-16-06, 02:47 AM	Also did you just start this post to get some idea what your new and smarter GM might try to stop your changeling? If so I have got to give it to you a very effective way to use these boards.
aelryinth 01-16-06, 06:07 PM	Because I enjoy it SO much. And no, the rest of my party will be powergaming much more overtly. In fact, that's the final piece to guard my changeling against his mistakes, a party that's subconsiously begging to hear the words. "Alright, fine, you caught me. Boys, kill em all." And I second the comments that Changeling Warlocks are some of the best spys around. Especially because on top of everything that has already been mentioned, they don't need to carry weapons or spell componants. Better be careful. I can also see them taking a look around, shrugging, and saying "you got yourself into this...take care of it yourself and quit dragging us down." A maxed out disguise expert isn't going to be much of a team player in death defying combat, after all... ==Aelryinth
Just another user 01-16-06, 07:07 PM	Better be careful. I can also see them taking a look around, shrugging, and saying "you got yourself into this...take care of it yourself and quit dragging us down." A maxed out disguise expert isn't going to be much of a team player in death defying combat, after all... ==Aelryinth Or even better they could say "How much it is the reward for bringing you in, again?" ;)
makeshiftwings 01-17-06, 12:39 PM	Here are some other things I can imagine might be used in Eberron. I wouldn't necessarily throw them at changeling players, but I think they make sense in the world and are based on mostly low-level magic: -At entrances to courts, vaults, etc., a guard checkpoint in a Zone of Truth. The guard would stop everyone in line and ask "Are you or have you ever been a Zilargo spy, Dragon Below cultist, changeling, vampire, or disgruntled Warforged?" Or something to that effect. -Trained changeling-spotting specialists on the city guard wouldn't be too difficult. A human 1st level ranger with changelings as favored enemies, 14 Wisdom, max ranks in Spot and Sense Motive, and the feats Awareness and Recognize Impostor would have a +14 Spot vs changeling Disguise, and a +12 Sense Motive vs changeling Bluff. With some spells cast on him like Owl's Wisdom or something to increase his Spot (I'm sure some book has a spell like that), he'd be even better. -I think if guards were very concerned about a changeling in their midst, they wouldn't hesitate to use non-harmful interrogation magic, depending on the country, I suppose. Wands of Daze, Sleep, Hold Person, Charm Person, Suggestion, Hypnotism, etc., could be used to sort through a room full of suspects and get the changeling to turn himself in, all without causing any physical harm to the innocent.
MobiusKlein 01-17-06, 03:18 PM	If I know what my friend sounds like, and I hear the changeling speak, I could detect an imposter. The changeling does not get any language, so if the shopkeeper knows a language that should be known by the impersonated party, another check. Have a dedicated guard with a detect magic spell on him, and have him delay or not let anyone in who has strong spell effects on them. A 'panic button' that does a Dispel Magic on the area. (Eternal wand) (Not to mention the various other traps around.)
Inkling 01-17-06, 08:05 PM	Disguise also covers voice mimicry and the changeling's shape change and Hat of Disguise both affect the voice too, so Listen won't give you any extra edge over Spot. However a secret language would work between cohorts and close friends. Maybe not a full-blown language, but lots of jargon and references known only to the parties involved. Probably would put a good modifier against your Bluff/Disguise. No one could infiltrate the Druidic sects because it wouldn't take long to discover that the changeling doesnt speak Druidic. Dark Speech would become extremely valuable to the inner circle of evil organizations...if the changeling doesnt take the Dark Speech feat, he can't speak the language at all even with the most powerful magics. In teams I play with, we always take skill ranks in some off-the-wall language like Auran that no one would ever know, and use that to communicate with each other (especially for tactical key words). Keeps the enemy from knowing what you're planning to do, lets you talk to each other during negotiations, and keeps the changelings out.
Edymnion 01-17-06, 08:52 PM	Actually, going back a bit, I would likely penalize a changling if he has ID papers with pictures of who he is supposed to be. For starters, presenting them with a picture is going to immediantly make them look at you twice to see if you actually do match the picture. And on top of that, since you have to roll EVERY time you do a disguise, including every time you use the changeling's ability, its likely that you won't be able to get that exact face again until higher levels, meaning its perfectly possible that you won't even look like your own fake ID.
Inkling 01-17-06, 09:00 PM	Well, it's like they say: "If you actually look like your passport photo, you aren't well enough to travel."
makeshiftwings 01-18-06, 12:03 PM	Actually, going back a bit, I would likely penalize a changling if he has ID papers with pictures of who he is supposed to be. For starters, presenting them with a picture is going to immediantly make them look at you twice to see if you actually do match the picture. And on top of that, since you have to roll EVERY time you do a disguise, including every time you use the changeling's ability, its likely that you won't be able to get that exact face again until higher levels, meaning its perfectly possible that you won't even look like your own fake ID. The pictures in ID papers are just painted portraits though; I would think that most people rarely match up exactly with the painting, depending on the skill of the painter. And most ID papers don't even have a portrait. I wouldn't think that your average guard is going to stop some noblewoman from going into the party with "Hmmm... well, all your papers are in order, but this painting of you has your eyes a little higher on your face. No, you're not going in." I'd imagine they rely on arcane mark / signets and such when they are concerned with identity; the painted portraits seemed like just a nice thing to have if you were rich.
MobiusKlein 01-18-06, 04:29 PM	That's the first I've seen about that. The skill discription in the online SRDs refer only to Spot, seeing, and such. All the disguise type spells, shape change, etc talk about appearance, except Veil. Veil calls out "The subjects look, feel, and smell just like ...", not mentioning sounding like them. I'd love to know that it affects voice so I can use it myself! (Just have to convince the GM.)
Quenditar 01-18-06, 06:07 PM	One idea is a device based on the spell Discern Bloodline (Races of Destiny). It does allow a Will save, making it not as practical for guarding shops, but if the spell exists in that campaign it seems a reasonable security measure at formal events, with the understanding that any who refuse to submit to the spell are not allowed entry.
6457890 01-18-06, 06:41 PM	I think changeling should have fun with their racial abilities, but they cant do EVERYTHING. Even if they do look like the merchants brother, with the signet ring, identification papers, knowledge of the brother and stuff, the merchant is not going to #give away# his money for no good reason. Merchant(thinking): why does my brother want a magical longbow? In any case, i would love to be able to play a spy-changeling, all the roleplaying is seriously yummy; but i wouldnt do that a lot in the same store. Me(looking at a sign of closed and the owner outside): What happened!? Merchant: We broke. Bye. That would just be very very sad
Phist 01-19-06, 11:06 AM	Better be careful. I can also see them taking a look around, shrugging, and saying "you got yourself into this...take care of it yourself and quit dragging us down." A maxed out disguise expert isn't going to be much of a team player in death defying combat, after all... Where I put my skill points has nothing to do with how good I am in combat. And you don't get just how nuts my party is. Most of us are fairly normal, but there are a couple people who just want to rip out the throats of every NPC we find, good or bad. These guys barely have the patience for my subtleties at all and faced with the... opprotunity to kill an entire building for no reason other than to safeguard my identity, they'd jump at it. Not because of saving my identity, but because of the killing. I'm pretty sure that disguise self of any level covers voice. Otherwise the spell would be pretty useless for longer than a couple seconds. In fact, I think that disguising your voice is another part of a disguise check.
bcr666 01-19-06, 12:08 PM	I as a DM in this situation, if you were to approach an NPC that knows the person you are disguising yourself as, gets the normal bonuses, but I will have them reroll spot every couple of seconds that you are in their presence, giving them a little +1, or +2 bonus on each roll, so if you stay in their presence for too long, they will eventually see through your disguise, no matter how high your bonuses are. I would rationalize this by the fact that you aren't the person that they believe you are, and you aren't a doppelganger that can read minds, and know what their expectation of you is. So maybe the person you are imitating has a tick you aren't showing, or "Hey where's that fancy dagger you won from me during last weeks 'Three Dragon Ante'? You haven't been without it since.", or maybe there is a conspiriatorial plot the imitated character is in on, but you aren't how do you answer questions? What about voice, I don't have the Eberron book with me, can you alter your voice too? That would be a dead give away for cross gender.
johnkretzer 01-19-06, 03:41 PM	Yes the changeling ability can mimic voice. If it didn't none of the changelings in the story would work. Just wondering would you do the culminative bonus to spot every couple of second(do you mean a round?) if the changeling did his/or her homework? I mean changelings are very cautions by nature and wouldn't attempt this kind of stunt without studying the brothers in detail. If I was PC trying to pull this off it would proably take me of a month of getting to know the brothers and then doing it. Would also proably have that new feat in Players Guide to Eberron also.
bcr666 01-19-06, 06:53 PM	Then there are penalties to the NPCs roll. But if the PC decides to mimic the captain of the guard, and bluster his way in, without much preparation....
MobiusKlein 01-20-06, 01:22 AM	I really wish somebody would show me where Disguise explicitly states that it acts on voice. Maybe there is a hole in RAW, and it makes sense to extend Disguise to voice, as well as various other disguise spells. But the descriptions I see all talk about form, not sound. Disguise Self: "You make yourself—including clothing, armor, weapons, and equipment—look different." http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/disguiseSelf.htm You could argue that changing your form physically will change how your voice sounds: a young man taking the actual form of an old woman will sound different. However, that's more in line with the 2nd level spell Alter Self. And if Disguise by takes 1d3 x 10 minutes to apply by itself, then why would it take that long to start a voice disguise? (And incidentally, how does the changeling shape change ability interact with normal skill use? She could change her face immediatly, but still require time to make the clothes look convincing. ) One similar example: Hide and Move Silently are separate skills. One is oppose by Spot, the other by Move Silently. Having one skill (Disguise) that applies vs both seems a bit overpowered. There is no good alternative, so I don't know what to suggest.
johnkretzer 01-20-06, 04:14 AM	Then there are penalties to the NPCs roll. But if the PC decides to mimic the captain of the guard, and bluster his way in, without much preparation.... Well yeah if PCs do something stupid it is a GMs job to squish them. Though if they out smart us (the GMs) then they should get what they get.
Atlictoatl 01-20-06, 12:14 PM	I'm just rushing through here, responding to something I saw yesterday, without time to find again the specific comment(s). Complete Arcane specifically states under the entry for the Entropic Warding invocation that the character cannot be tracked by scent, but can still be detected by scent. I may be recollecting the earlier discussion of the invocation incorrectly, but thought that distinction merited mention.
MobiusKlein 01-21-06, 08:22 PM	One other thing to remember - Player Characters attract plot. Interesting things happen to PCs, just how it is. Your master disguise changeling might : 1) attract a master changeling hunter, bent on revenge. 2) go into a shop run by a retired high level mage. Permanent detect magic, etc. (You wonder how he gets the XP to create magic items? By stomping the **** out of would be thieves.) 3) steal some unique artifact that has some undesired properties and may want to be retrieved by some nefarious folks. 4) annoy some powerful merchant's guild Whatever your skill level, I hope your GM would find some way to tie the master disguise ability into a cool plot hook. That's why we play DnD, not just computer RPGs.
Inkling 01-21-06, 10:07 PM	But how does a "Freelance Changeling Slayer" detect, let alone track, a changeling who's using Nystuls Magic Aura, Non-detection, and Cloak of Khyber? I'm not being flipant, I'd really like to hear some ideas! If you were the "Changeling Slayer With No Name" and you just rode into town, how would you track down a changeling? If the changeling just conned someone out of some merchandise, you could just use magic to track down the item, but Non-Detection would block that as long as the item was on his person. If the changeling just murdered someone, that's even harder since you don't have anything to Locate Object/Scry on. Speak with Dead and any spells that let you look back in time and actually see the crime taking place won't do you any good because you'd just see Joe the Carpenter killing the guy, not the changeling's real form (and Cloak of Khyber blocks True Seeing). Same thing with any witnesses. Hmmm, as Holmes would say "this is a three pipe problem!" What's a Consulting Detective to do?
Kalanth 01-22-06, 01:11 AM	These guys barely have the patience for my subtleties at all and faced with the... opprotunity to kill an entire building for no reason other than to safeguard my identity, they'd jump at it. Not because of saving my identity, but because of the killing. Good lord man, sounds like you have a group with some heavy duty issues that need some professional help. And your skills certainly can help you in combat, but it's ok not to remember the Feint skill. Most people skip right over that one, and yet it's is a talent that any well focused Changelling should be good at, considering it uses Bluff to give you the upper hand in the fight. And as far as I have ever seen, Disguise does not cover voice, though I do rule that change self can do so. I see it as saying you "change" your vocal cords to sound like another person. Sure, this would make it easier on a Changeling in my world, but that is not the point. However, in my games, if you wanted to change your voice and did not have any natural means to do so, Perform (Acting) is probly one of the more useful skills out there for that. Impressions can be hard, but certainly rewarding if done right. But how does a "Freelance Changeling Slayer" detect, let alone track, a changeling who's using Nystuls Magic Aura, Non-detection, and Cloak of Khyber? I'm not being flipant, I'd really like to hear some ideas! I would carry about some items that can dispell magic in some way or another along with an item that gives you a perma-True Seeing. Make it a not so obvious thing, and some common word spoken while being worn or held by the user casts the spell (obviously Mr. Freelance Changeling Slayer would need himself some ranks in UMD). When you suspect someone you start talking to them, while talking you slip in the activation word and focus the Dispell on the person he is talking to. Thanks to the Perma-True Seeing they should appear as a changeling in your eyes, that is to say that the Cloak of Khyber and the Nystuls fail their saving throws. Once you have your man, go crazy and arrest him.
Inkling 01-22-06, 11:15 AM	I would carry about some items that can dispell magic in some way or another along with an item that gives you a perma-True Seeing. Make it a not so obvious thing, and some common word spoken while being worn or held by the user casts the spell (obviously Mr. Freelance Changeling Slayer would need himself some ranks in UMD). When you suspect someone you start talking to them, while talking you slip in the activation word and focus the Dispell on the person he is talking to. Thanks to the Perma-True Seeing they should appear as a changeling in your eyes, that is to say that the Cloak of Khyber and the Nystuls fail their saving throws. Once you have your man, go crazy and arrest him.So you would cast Dispel Magic on everyone in the world until you found a changeling? Sounds expensive. How would you prove it's the changeling you're looking for? True Seeing does not work thru Cloak of Khyber.
Valesin 01-22-06, 12:29 PM	And since you can't take 10 or 20 on a Disguise check, and you are always assumed to THINK you did a good job, you can't just keep making checks until you get it right. You get one roll, and if you roll a 1, well tough luck. Without at least a full body mirror and time to study yourself, you won't even know that you screwed something up until it's too late. Actually you can take a 10 on any skill check as long as you are not under duress. And you can take a 20 on Disguise seeing as how the "skill attempted carries no penalties for failure" (PHB pg 65). If you have to apply and re-apply your disguise 20 times in front of a mirror before it is perfect, no biggie. The only time you can't take a 20 (assuming you have lots of time) is if a single failure carries some repercussions (e.g., Disable Device, Climb, Jump, etc), and that is not the case with Disguise.
MobiusKlein 01-22-06, 01:37 PM	The whole point is that PC don't wander into 'average' shops. The shop could be an elaborate setup, designed to entrap the rumored 'super-changeling'. The Freelance Changeling Slayer could have been tracking these rumors for months. Regarding Non-detection, it does not provide a 100% protection from detection: "If a divination is attempted against the warded creature or item, the caster of the divination must succeed on a caster level check (1d20 + caster level) against a DC of 11 + the caster level of the spellcaster who cast nondetection. ..." (or DC 15+ caster level, but it's not a bard spell) It has a 50 GP material component, and lasts 1 hr / level. Nystul's Magic Aura will mask magic items, but NOT the active magic effects they have. Using those magic items to disguise the changeling will still put a big magic BLIP on anybody's detect magic. Remember, I'm not talking about 'average' shops and 'average' merchants. Some merchants might be 12th level, for all the Changeling knows. But how does a "Freelance Changeling Slayer" detect, let alone track, a changeling who's using Nystuls Magic Aura, Non-detection, and Cloak of Khyber? I'm not being flipant, I'd really like to hear some ideas! If you were the "Changeling Slayer With No Name" and you just rode into town, how would you track down a changeling? If the changeling just conned someone out of some merchandise, you could just use magic to track down the item, but Non-Detection would block that as long as the item was on his person. If the changeling just murdered someone, that's even harder since you don't have anything to Locate Object/Scry on. Speak with Dead and any spells that let you look back in time and actually see the crime taking place won't do you any good because you'd just see Joe the Carpenter killing the guy, not the changeling's real form (and Cloak of Khyber blocks True Seeing). Same thing with any witnesses. Hmmm, as Holmes would say "this is a three pipe problem!" What's a Consulting Detective to do?
Kalanth 01-22-06, 02:11 PM	So you would cast Dispel Magic on everyone in the world until you found a changeling? Sounds expensive. How would you prove it's the changeling you're looking for? True Seeing does not work thru Cloak of Khyber. First off, you investigate, I missed putting that in there cause I was tired. Even a changeling will leave evidence at the sceen of a crime, and you just keep following the breadcrumbs. You cast the spell on the one's you consider suspects, that cuts down on the usage, and yeah, it would be expensive but at least it was an idea. As for True Seeing not working, I did not have (nor feel like going through) my books at the time, but isn't the cloak a magical item? It would (hopefully) be dispelled with this theory. If its not a magical item, then perma-blocking True Seeing with natural fibers is to strong IMHO and it would not see the light of day in my games without some tweaking.
MobiusKlein 01-22-06, 07:08 PM	Who, I should ask, is the changeling thief going to sell the loot to. These criminal organizations might be interested in the source of the loot. They need to sell it again, and might desire more knowledge about the seller, at least if the seller wants full price. Perhaps the reward for the the thief has grown, and it's worth it to take the seller, not the loot. Perhaps the store was actually a front for the organization the thief is selling it back to. Oops. So there are any number of ways the thief could get caught - and the more they steal, the more chances to mess up / roll a 1.
Kinger 01-22-06, 07:19 PM	Perhaps the store was actually a front for the organization the thief is selling it back too. Oops. Ah, the ol' Two Smoking Barrels situation. Steal from A, sell to B through C, only to learn that A and B are one and the same. Oops indeed. :)
blargney the second 01-23-06, 03:59 AM	I'm just about to start playing a Changeling, and I've found a pretty fun combo: 1) Rogue racial substitution level (RoE) allows skill mastery of Sense Motive. 2) Vigilant Sentinel of Aerenal (MoE) has an Adaptation note that opens the PrC pretty wide: basically any nation's spy defenders. 3) Vigilant Sentinel provides good Will saves, a bonus to Disguise, permanent Nondetection, and Thought Theft. 4) Thought Theft allows you to read surface thoughts for things like passwords & jargon using Sense Motive. I'm going to enjoy this PC! He's basically a Passer, but it's pretty hard to pierce his disguise. -blarg
Commissar 01-23-06, 12:20 PM	IMHO this is part of the fun of the game, letting the PCs be great heroes or villains (if they earn it by smart play, adequate abilities and good luck). I wouldn't necessarily go out of my way to thwart the changeling... but if he really is that much a thorn in people's side, it's just going to naturally catch up with him. For instance, one of the NPCs he messes with or one of the shops he plunders is going to be tied to a Secret Evil Organization (tm) at some point. And then he's going to have a diviner (who can often beat the Nondetection with his level check) and a changeling assassin on his butt. And if the character manages to get a Dragonmarked House riled up, then he's in real trouble.
Inkling 01-23-06, 07:26 PM	I agree, eventually the changeling thief is going to fail his Non-Detection save especially against higher level trackers. A thief would have to fence an item before the fence hears where it came from (I doubt any fence would want a major pain chasing him) and before the thief fails his non-detection save. What about a changeling assassin? They take nothing but a person's life, so there's nothing to scry on. If a changeling isn't caught in the act, he'll get away scott-free every time guaranteed. Is a changeling the perfect assassin?
Belabras 01-23-06, 08:33 PM	Wouldn't Track, Urban Track, and a fair amount of logic allow any determined party to catch a changeling?
MobiusKlein 01-24-06, 02:26 AM	Wouldn't Track, Urban Track, and a fair amount of logic allow any determined party to catch a changeling? That, and a DM that doesn't let every feat and spell from the optional books in.
Just another user 01-24-06, 04:20 AM	I really wish somebody would show me where Disguise explicitly states that it acts on voice. Maybe there is a hole in RAW, and it makes sense to extend Disguise to voice, as well as various other disguise spells. But the descriptions I see all talk about form, not sound. Disguise Self: "You make yourself—including clothing, armor, weapons, and equipment—look different." Disguise is probably one of the worse stated skills in the PHB, IMHO, if you look closely at it you find a lot of possible loopholes in it, for example, as far as I know by the RAW there is no reason for an halfling to not be able to use disguise to pass himself as an ogre, or viceversa. And without penalties, too. :)
MobiusKlein 01-24-06, 02:51 PM	Disguise is probably one of the worse stated skills in the PHB, IMHO, if you look closely at it you find a lot of possible loopholes in it, for example, as far as I know by the RAW there is no reason for an halfling to not be able to use disguise to pass himself as an ogre, or viceversa. And without penalties, too. :) The halfling could pose as an ogre, no problem! He just has to have a reason for the small size, which is not covered by disguise. Could say he's the victim of a permanent Reduce Person spell. Or pose as a Ogre Child. A good Disguise roll would make you look just like an Ogre, only smaller. And being able to Bluff your way through it helps, hence the +2 Bluff synergy. Folks still get to use Common Sense against disguise, not just Spot. If you are Disguised as the King, the best roll won't get you the standard set of guards, courtiers, retinue, etc. Without all that, the king is just a guy with a crown.
Just another user 01-24-06, 06:03 PM	The halfling could pose as an ogre, no problem! He just has to have a reason for the small size, which is not covered by disguise. Could say he's the victim of a permanent Reduce Person spell. Or pose as a Ogre Child. A good Disguise roll would make you look just like an Ogre, only smaller. And being able to Bluff your way through it helps, hence the +2 Bluff synergy. Folks still get to use Common Sense against disguise, not just Spot. If you are Disguised as the King, the best roll won't get you the standard set of guards, courtiers, retinue, etc. Without all that, the king is just a guy with a crown. Well, I stand corrected, I checked the PHB where it is specified that the difference in height can't be more than 10% of the original. I still think that diguise should be a little more detailed on what it can and can't do.