Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Incenjucar 06-23-04, 05:49 AM	Out of pure curiosity, and having noticed the mention so many times, I'm wondering exactly: - How common is the use of elementals as power sources? - Are those elementals sentient? - Are those elementals willing? - Are there any groups intent on stopping it, if the last is 'no'? (I could see a horde of genasi and half-elementals making war on all those who dared to enslave their kin to be used as power.)
Gilgiga of the Hunt 06-24-04, 04:35 PM	I do belive that there is a group of druids who oppose the useage of elemntals, and any outsiders for that matter.
Steven Snyder 06-24-04, 04:47 PM	Originally posted by Incenjucar Out of pure curiosity, and having noticed the mention so many times, I'm wondering exactly: - How common is the use of elementals as power sources? - Are those elementals sentient? - Are those elementals willing? - Are there any groups intent on stopping it, if the last is 'no'? (I could see a horde of genasi and half-elementals making war on all those who dared to enslave their kin to be used as power.) Why do I think of Hermione Granger's SPEW.
Incenjucar 06-24-04, 11:23 PM	I've heard mention of the druids, but I was thinking more along the lines of the elementals themselves. Nature -can- defend itself, after all. I could see such things as salamander paladins building armies to free their brethren... Spells created to bring forth the sentience of golems so that they may avenge their captivity and seek their elemental forms... And I don't read Harry Potter, so I'm going to assume you mean her logical though proccess.
Gilgiga of the Hunt 06-24-04, 11:27 PM	It was her silly elven equal rights movement. However none of the elves wanted to be free.
Incenjucar 06-25-04, 06:06 AM	Ah. I take it one of those moments where she realizes that she (and the goth-ish prof) are the only sane people in the whole bloody series, and that everyone else is mentally handicapped or otherwise impaired. Anyone finding much in the books? Does any particular Baatorian Bovine have any information on this?
Rauol_Duke 06-25-04, 08:59 AM	The MM states that "elementals are incarnations of the elements that compose existence." Maybe the bound fire elemental is just as content to be bound to a House Lyrandar airship as it is to wander around in a dungeon, or even exist on its home plane. After all, it gets to do what it wants to do...be an elemental. I'm wondering if elementals have an instinctual drive for "freedom" as we know it. Perhaps, as long as they are alowed to manifest thier element, they're "happy". Fire Elementals just wanna .... burn. Air Elementals just wanna .... blow. Earth Elementals just wanna .... rock. And Water Elementals just wanna .... wet.
Incenjucar 06-25-04, 06:01 PM	Considering the historical tendancy of elements to go berserk and turn on their summoners... I think they're well-aware of freedom and have a general dislike of being -used-, not to mention enslaved. But that also depends on the nature of the elements in question. ...Also, is it -exclusively- gnomes who do the elemental binding aside from golems, or just mostly?
darkthought 06-25-04, 06:24 PM	I think the gnomes do it mostly, because they did it first. Anybody can take the Bind Elemental feat. I'm sure that House Cannith is starting to bind thier own elementals to get away from the reliance on the gnomes. As far as I understand it, you have to convince the elemental to be part of the ship. Page 51 in the CSB describes the Bind Elemental feat. You basically convince/compel the elemental to accept the bondage with a cha check. Not to mention it requires the expensive, rare, and dangerous to find Khyber shards...
Incenjucar 06-25-04, 07:30 PM	Ah, so there -is- choice... Is there something specific that the elementals get out of it?
Harmony's Sorrow 06-25-04, 07:37 PM	Choice. Benefit to the elemental, nothing that I've come across but so far I'm on page 200 or so out of a 320 page book. Too much else to do. And yes, "normally" the elemental has to be "forced" into slavery. Though there are items that eliminate the elementals ability to resist. But my understanding is that there is always the initial struggle of the Planar Binding spell required. From the SRD: Planar Binding Conjuration (Calling) [see text for lesser planar binding] Level: Sor/Wiz 6 Components: V, S Targets: Up to three elementals or outsiders, totaling no more than 12 HD, no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart when they appear This spell functions like lesser planar binding, except that you may call a single creature of 12 HD or less, or up to three creatures of the same kind whose Hit Dice total no more than 12. Each creature gets a save, makes an independent attempt to escape, and must be individually persuaded to aid you. Planar Binding, Greater Conjuration (Calling) [see text for lesser planar binding] Level: Sor/Wiz 8 Components: V, S Targets: Up to three elementals or outsiders, totaling no more than 18 HD, no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart when they appear. This spell functions like lesser planar binding, except that you may call a single creature of 18 HD or less, or up to three creatures of the same kind whose Hit Dice total no more than 18. Each creature gets a saving throw, makes independent attempts to escape, and must be persuaded to aid you individually. Planar Binding, Lesser Conjuration (Calling) [see text] Level: Sor/Wiz 5 Components: V, S Casting Time: 10 minutes Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels); see text Target: One elemental or outsider with 6 HD or less Duration: Instantaneous Saving Throw: Will negates Spell Resistance: No and Yes; see text Casting this spell attempts a dangerous act: to lure a creature from another plane to a specifically prepared trap, which must lie within the spell’s range. The called creature is held in the trap until it agrees to perform one service in return for its freedom. To create the trap, you must use a magic circle spell, focused inward. The kind of creature to be bound must be known and stated. If you wish to call a specific individual, you must use that individual’s proper name in casting the spell. The target creature is allowed a Will saving throw. If the saving throw succeeds, the creature resists the spell. If the saving throw fails, the creature is immediately drawn to the trap (spell resistance does not keep it from being called). The creature can escape from the trap with by successfully pitting its spell resistance against your caster level check, by dimensional travel, or with a successful Charisma check (DC 15 + 1/2 your caster level + your Cha modifier). It can try each method once per day. If it breaks loose, it can flee or attack you. A dimensional anchor cast on the creature prevents its escape via dimensional travel. You can also employ a calling diagram (see magic circle against evil) to make the trap more secure. If the creature does not break free of the trap, you can keep it bound for as long as you dare. You can attempt to compel the creature to perform a service by describing the service and perhaps offering some sort of reward. You make a Charisma check opposed by the creature’s Charisma check. The check is assigned a bonus of +0 to +6 based on the nature of the service and the reward. If the creature wins the opposed check, it refuses service. New offers, bribes, and the like can be made or the old ones reoffered every 24 hours. This process can be repeated until the creature promises to serve, until it breaks free, or until you decide to get rid of it by means of some other spell. Impossible demands or unreasonable commands are never agreed to. If you roll a 1 on the Charisma check, the creature breaks free of the binding and can escape or attack you. Once the requested service is completed, the creature need only so inform you to be instantly sent back whence it came. The creature might later seek revenge. If you assign some open-ended task that the creature cannot complete though its own actions the spell remains in effect for a maximum of one day per caster level, and the creature gains an immediate chance to break free. Note that a clever recipient can subvert some instructions. When you use a calling spell to call an air, chaotic, earth, evil, fire, good, lawful, or water creature, it is a spell of that type. So you can see the limitations here...
Incenjucar 06-26-04, 07:08 AM	... unreasonable commands are never agreed to. This, of course, is the main issue then, if that's what it's based on. Elementals aren't known for charity or to have a 'be trapped in engine for a hundred years or so' fetish.
Rauol_Duke 06-26-04, 08:22 AM	In comparing this to the Golem, there is a parrellel. The force which animates a Golem is spirit from the elemental plane of earth. It is unwillingly bound to power the construct and, thus has the 1% cumulative chance per round to go berserk. Since elemental-powered airships or the Lightning Rail doesn't have this same tendency to have their power sources go crazy on them (that we know of), I can assume that either: 1. That this binding is not as "unreasonable" a command as being used in the creation of a golem, even though, according to the Bind Elemental feat, you must still cast planar binding and must still make an opposed Charisma check to compel the elemental to accept its bondage. Or... 2. That the use of the Khyber dragonshard as a recepticle, whose primary use is to imprison elementals, coupled with the abilities of the dragonmarked houses who construct and control the elemental vessels has something to do with it. The sidebar on controlling elemental vessels on p. 267 of the ECS states that these vessels are notoriously difficult to control, but that members of House Lyrandar and House Orien use their dragonmark abilities and special dragonmark focus items to better compel the elemental to provide propulsion.
darkthought 06-26-04, 03:47 PM	maybe the Elementals see themselves as servants to those who are "blessed" with a dragonmark?
Incenjucar 06-27-04, 02:59 AM	Personally I'm seeing it as a very good excuse for some inner planar action to occur (which would be the only reason I would ever actually buy in to Eberron -- the inner planes are my favorite D&D context), hence why I'm inquiring. If not to predict, maybe to give ideas to lurking designers.
The White Sorcerer 06-27-04, 04:35 AM	Originally posted by Incenjucar Personally I'm seeing it as a very good excuse for some inner planar action to occur (which would be the only reason I would ever actually buy in to Eberron -- the inner planes are my favorite D&D context), hence why I'm inquiring. The Eberron cosmology doesn't have inner planes. The inner planes are replaced by the outer planes Fernia (Elemental Plane of Fire), Irian (Positive Energy Plane), Lamannia (Elemental Plane of Air/Earth/Water), Mabar (Negative Energy Plane), and Risia (Elemental Plane of Cold).
MavrickWeirdo 06-27-04, 07:53 AM	Originally posted by Incenjucar Ah, so there -is- choice... Is there something specific that the elementals get out of it? Travel? :rolleyes: :D
MavrickWeirdo 06-27-04, 08:11 AM	Originally posted by The White Sorcerer The Eberron cosmology doesn't have inner planes. The inner planes are replaced by the outer planes Fernia (Elemental Plane of Fire), Irian (Positive Energy Plane), Lamannia (Elemental Plane of Air/Earth/Water), Mabar (Negative Energy Plane), and Risia (Elemental Plane of Cold). Actually I believe that Fernia (Elemental Plane of Fire), Irian (Positive Energy Plane), Mabar (Negative Energy Plane), Risia (Elemental Plane of Cold/Water), Syrania (Elemental Plane of Air) is more accurate. There is no Earth Elemental Plane equivilant, but Kythri (Plane of Chaos) is said to have "every other substance and energy found in the universe". Earth Elementals might be greatfull to leave there. ;)
The White Sorcerer 06-27-04, 08:29 AM	Originally posted by MavrickWeirdo Actually I believe that Fernia (Elemental Plane of Fire), Irian (Positive Energy Plane), Mabar (Negative Energy Plane), Risia (Elemental Plane of Cold/Water), Syrania (Elemental Plane of Air) is more accurate. Air/earth/water elementals dwell in Lamannia. Syrania is the realm of angels. Water elementals do not dwell in Risia.
Incenjucar 06-27-04, 06:25 PM	Inner Planes, Elemental Planes, whatevah. Same difference. Like I said, I'm a -fan- of the Inner planes, hence, interest lies in their equivalants. I take it, though, that nothing is actually -listed- as a rational reason for elementals to -want- to be harnessed?
MavrickWeirdo 06-27-04, 09:47 PM	Originally posted by The White Sorcerer Air/earth/water elementals dwell in Lamannia. Syrania is the realm of angels. Water elementals do not dwell in Risia. Some "Celestials" choose to live in Syrania which is a plane of endless "sky". The city of Sharn is a manifest zone for the plane of Syrania, this allows the towers to float in the air. From this I assumed that the plane of Syrania has elemental air qualities. However if you can tell me what page it says that there are specifically no air elementals in the Azure Skys then I will retract my statement.
JohnnyONeal 06-28-04, 11:56 AM	How common is the use of elementals as power sources?Very uncommon. An air elemental, steered using a set of magic reins, is what pushes the Lightning Rail forward. (The conductor stones are what keeps it floating.) Elementals are also used in airships, which are fairly rare and were never used as dedicated combat vehicles in the Last War. Elementals are used in some sailing ships, which seem to be a bit more common. Otherwise, the only place bound elementals are used is in magic items, where they can confer elemental bonuses to armor and weapons. For example, a Small earth elemental bound to a club would give it an enhancement bonus, but only when the user is touching the ground. I could see smiths' forges using bound fire elementals, but I don't think that's specifically mentioned in the book. There are definitely many examples of "magicommodities" in Eberron, but bound elementals still seem pretty rare and fantastic. They're not applied to any create any really widespread conveniences, like factories or personal vehicles. They're something that's been developed over the past couple of decades, whereas most "applied magic" has been in effect for significantly longer. Are those elementals sentient?The implication is that they have at least the self-awareness of a beast of burden, because steering is something of a battle of wills. A dragonmarked noble from House Lyrandar has to win an opposed Charisma check with an air elemental to steer a lightning rail, airship, or elemental-ring powered boat. If the "pilot" fails, the elemental can decide to keep moving or stop moving. (The only way to get around this is by using charm monster to steer.) Elementals bound into weapons or armor -- at least the ones described in the CSB -- don't express their will or sentience in any way. I could definitely see making an intelligent bound-elemental weapon with a simple personality reflecting the actual elemental bound inside, but the baseline weapons are just magic inanimate objects. Are those elementals willing?While I suppose one could be in theory, the basic answer here is no. They're bound into a ship (or item, in the case of items) using a Charisma check, but I see that more as using the force of personality to bend a creature to your will as opposed to actually convincing the elemental to help you out. Darkthought's description is correct, but the wording of the feat is specifically "compel," not convince. Are there any groups intent on stopping it, if the last is 'no'? (I could see a horde of genasi and half-elementals making war on all those who dared to enslave their kin to be used as power.)Not that we know of. Aside from the Ashbound, who oppose non-druidic magic in general, I don't recall any group who would be likely to oppose elemental binding. Genasi and half-elementals aren't specifically placed in Eberron, though there are plenty of possibilities for placing them given the frequency of planar contact in Eberron. I take it, though, that nothing is actually -listed- as a rational reason for elementals to -want- to be harnessed?Right. I would say that elementals tend to be too alien/mindless to really bargain with. To me, this process is less like an example of convincing a demon to help you and more like turning/rebuking undead. Just because your turn check is modified with your Charisma bonus doesn't mean the undead are considering the turning as a diplomatic offer to be destroyed. :) Also, is it -exclusively- gnomes who do the elemental binding aside from golems, or just mostly?Almost exclusively, because they've discovered the secrets and the gnomes are unparalleled when it comes to keeping secrets. But any PC with an item creation bent can eventually take the Elemental Binding feat, which a DM could represent as figuring out the secrets without help, or learning the techniques from an unscrupulous gnome information broker. It's worth mentioning that the current setup -- only Zilargo can create elemental vehicles, only Lyrandar can steer them -- means any nation who wants to use them has to cooperate with two separate, neutral powers. You also need someone to go underground and brave the spawn of Xoriat in order to find Khyber shards in the first place. So there's a delicate balance in place as far as airship creation is concerned, which is one of the things keeping them relatively rare. Anywho, as far as your plot idea is concerned, I'd say elementals bound into items are generally having their freedom infringed upon. So if you want to feature an invasion of outsiders fighting to free their brethren -- which is easy in Eberron thanks to the coterminous planes and manifest zones -- it would be a very feasible plot. It would probably center on Zilargo, where the elemental binding happens, because I can't think of any other place in Khorvaire where you'd find many bound-elemental vehicles in one place.
Incenjucar 06-28-04, 07:40 PM	Thanks for the info, ONeal. As such is the case, it's a definate possibility as an adventure series or an event in Eberron. It would definately grab some intention with a number of planes-oriented gamers, despite the difference in cosmologies from the classic sort. Besides, always fun to follow up one massive war with a smaller nasty one. In fact... I could see the Lord of Blades using this... "Down with organics!"
wdarkk 06-28-04, 09:13 PM	I had thought about a material-prime based terrorist group that would dedicate itself to freeing elementals by violence. I'd planned to name it Elemental Liberation Front, but the acronym caused it to need a new name. Perhaps Elemental Liberation Movement, but I'd prefer it spelled something.
The Sequal 06-29-04, 12:05 AM	Originally posted by wdarkk Perhaps Elemental Liberation Movement, but I'd prefer it spelled something. Umm... I might have misinterpreted what you are saying, but E-L-M does make a word: elm - a type of tree.
The White Sorcerer 06-29-04, 01:08 AM	Originally posted by MavrickWeirdo However if you can tell me what page it says that there are specifically no air elementals in the Azure Skys then I will retract my statement. Sure thing! Page 98! "Syrania Inhabitants: Angel (all)." No air elementals mentioned. And then there's this quote: "Angels are the only known inhabitants of this plane, ..."
wdarkk 06-29-04, 02:18 AM	Originally posted by The Sequal Umm... I might have misinterpreted what you are saying, but E-L-M does make a word: elm - a type of tree. I figured that out a little after I posted. I'd still prefer it spelled something vaguely menacing or at least cool.
darkthought 06-29-04, 02:27 AM	Originally posted by wdarkk I figured that out a little after I posted. I'd still prefer it spelled something vaguely menacing or at least cool. But now you have something darkly humorous! "BEWARE OF ELM!" "Elm? What's that a tree? we're in Sharn." "ELM WILL DESTORY YOUR EVIL WAYS!" "Is he talking about a treant?" "Take me seriously, dangit! ELM shall be the bane of your airships!" "Last time I checked, they can fly over trees." "... GAH!" *Horrid animal horde attacks* "All this over a tree? Stupid druids..."
wdarkk 06-29-04, 03:44 AM	Now all I need is a detailed map of the towers of Sharn... ;)
MavrickWeirdo 06-29-04, 12:44 PM	Originally posted by The White Sorcerer Sure thing! Page 98! "Syrania Inhabitants: Angel (all)." No air elementals mentioned. And then there's this quote: "Angels are the only known inhabitants of this plane, ..." Only known inhabitants That air elementals are not mentioned is not proof that they are not there. Where mention that they are not there?
JohnSnow 06-29-04, 02:48 PM	I figured that out a little after I posted. I'd still prefer it spelled something vaguely menacing or at least cool. Why am I reminded of the best terrorist organization name ever devised in literature (courtesy of Marvel Comics)... ULTIMATUM - the Underground Liberated Totally Integrated Mobile Army To Unite Mankind. Might I suggest the People's Army for the Liberation of Elementals - PALE? Just an idea...
The White Sorcerer 06-29-04, 03:14 PM	Originally posted by MavrickWeirdo That air elementals are not mentioned is not proof that they are not there. Where mention that they are not there? I give up. :nonono:
Incenjucar 06-29-04, 05:14 PM	Originally posted by JohnSnow Why am I reminded of the best terrorist organization name ever devised in literature (courtesy of Marvel Comics)... ULTIMATUM - the Underground Liberated Totally Integrated Mobile Army To Unite Mankind. Might I suggest the People's Army for the Liberation of Elementals - PALE? Just an idea... PALE sounds more like an undead thing... genasi with goth face paint? Perhaps something like... ELE: Elemental Liberation Engine
MavrickWeirdo 06-29-04, 07:29 PM	Originally posted by The White Sorcerer I give up. :nonono: I'm sorry, I guess I was in a difficult mood when I posted that first comment. My point was there are different ways of interpreting the planes. There is no evidence of air elementals in Syrania. :angel: are the only known inhabitants.
wdarkk 06-29-04, 11:00 PM	Oh, new one: Revolutionary Army of Generosity to Elementals. Hey, you try to find good "G" words for there.