How heroic? [Archive] - Wizards Community

How heroic? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
trollbill
11-14-05, 10:24 AM I am starting an Eberron campaign soon and will be using the Shadows of the Last War series of adventures plus some from Dungeon Magazine. I will be using a point buy system for character creation and am trying to decide whether to go with 28 or 32 point builds. Eberron is obviously a heroic campaign setting which implies 32 point, but the players will already be gaining a 'heroic' advantage from having Action Points, and I would like the campaign to be challenging (most of the players are pretty experienced, though not with Eberron).

So given the above info, what is your opinion?
DarkWarriorKarg
11-14-05, 11:14 AM I am starting an Eberron campaign soon and will be using the Shadows of the Last War series of adventures plus some from Dungeon Magazine. I will be using a point buy system for character creation and am trying to decide whether to go with 28 or 32 point builds. Eberron is obviously a heroic campaign setting which implies 32 point, but the players will already be gaining a 'heroic' advantage from having Action Points, and I would like the campaign to be challenging (most of the players are pretty experienced, though not with Eberron).

So given the above info, what is your opinion?

32. helps the classes with M.A.D. such as paladin and monk. From what I've seen, 28 encourages 1 trick ponies.
il Kav
11-14-05, 11:17 AM I'm for the 28 point system.

Action points are a really big advantage for the PC, and eberron is a low-level setting...

It's not Forgotten Realms (you will never encounter a black dragon just loitering in a swamp...), and super-human heroes risk to not find interesting challenges
ieattrollsforbreakfast
11-14-05, 11:41 AM I always prefer to go with 30 or 32pts. Action Points aside, having less low ability scores encourages characters with a chance to develop abilities that aren't neccessarily related to your core character class.
32pts will certainly make PCs powerful, but it doesnt make them superhuman. In the hands of players that wont take advantage and make characters with 18, 18, 8, 8, 8, 8 in their ability scores, some very fun concepts can be created. A more typical distribution might be 16, 14, 14, 12, 12, 10.

I'd also like to note that Eberron is only a low-level setting in terms of the NPCs and reactions to PCs. I actually tend to think Eberron makes a better high-level setting than the Forgotten Realms, since in Eberron the high levels are, well, high, in relation to everyone else.
When you reach high levels in Eberron, adventures are epics without having to use epic rules.
Damien_Hiro
11-14-05, 11:46 AM We chose 28 pts, because the characters are a cut above the rest, but not by a whole heck of a lot. I think 28 works well with a group of veterans that are capable of making balanced charcters and playing a decently challenging game. I would go with 32 if you have newer players in the group, it gives them enough points to spread the wealth a bit.
a_psh
11-14-05, 12:10 PM I use 28 points. I also give the PCs 75% of max on all hit dice, however, which reduces reliance on high Con slightly.
It works pretty nicely for us, with every character having several things they're good at but a notable area of specialization. And most folks don't dump 8s into Charisma, I've noticed (though our mages do tend to dump into Str).

Mostly, this system works because practically every major NPC in the game is built with the standard array or 25 point buy (a few, those with equally surprising potential, do use 28 point buy... those tend to be the ones that also have Heroic Spirit, giving them 3 AP to burn in an encounter), and minor ones use 15 points or the non-elite array.

As long as you're sticking to the baseline of using the standard array for major NPCs and non-elite scores for nearly everything else, 32 PB elevates the PCs just a bit too high, in my humble opinion.
Straylight
11-14-05, 11:23 PM I think you need to look at the rest of your group to deicde.

Some groups need lower-power characters to get a gritty and desperate feel to their games, some can get away with it with 32 or die-roll.

Personally, if/when I use point-buy, it's always 32. The reason for this is that the PCs are supposed to be heroic. If they're only above average for the world, I think that detracts from the heroics, both in terms of character and of gameplay. Players will be afraid to take some risks with their characters because they're not sure if they can make the DCs I'll call.

On the other hand, 32-point or die-roll characters tend to be generally more capable and can shine above and beyond even what an exceptional NPC can do. The players, in turn, are more willing to throw their characters (sometimes literally) into more hectic situations since they have more confidence in their ability to make high DCs.

A lot of what stat-generation system you use depends on your DM. Does he like your games to be dark and desperate, a world where the characters are made of glass and the monsters of steel? Or does he prefer high-action games where the characters are paragons of virtue and power, able to stand toe-to-toe and blade-to-blade with the greatest evils of the gameworld?

Specifically in Eberron, I think it is important for the characters to be better than "above average," since they have no safety net to speak of. There is no cavalry come to save the day here, and much of the time in Eberron, the only thing that's going to save your PCs are the PCs themselves and the ingenuity of their players.
AvonRekaes
11-14-05, 11:32 PM Just to stick my own two cents in here...

I use 45 point buy with gestalt rules. ^_^;;; I like to emphasis the pulp aspects of Eberron, making the PCs almost ridiculously heroic.
zambuka
11-15-05, 12:03 AM I got for a straight 1 for 1 point method.

You have 76 or 78 points to distribute amongst your stats, all stats start at 0 but can't be less than 3. It works and allows any character class without gimping non- essential stats. It lets you make your one trick pony but I find most players go for a more rounded distribution relying on the stat buffs as they level to make them more powerful.

My players learned long ago that charisma is a bad place to have a dump stat.
Gantores
11-15-05, 06:12 PM I made some first timer mistakes and used some alternate rolling rules from UA. I witnessed all rolls, and I have players with point totals as high as 92 (raw points from 0) and the lowest is 85. This, combined with the fact that the party varies in size from 7 - 9 players has created a power group which is tackeling challenges between 50 and 100% higher than their level.

To make matters worse they are accomplishing this without the use of action points.

There is a great deal of wealth that can be accumulated in Ebberon and if you have an Artificer who is willing to craft items for everyone, and other people willing to grab some crafting feats to support this further, your players can quickly outpace their power.

Being able to gain access to crafted items of almost what ever they could desire at level 5 is very scary. If I can convince my players to re-roll (or die, whatever :devil: ) then I will be going with the 32 point buy, and the next time I kill them off... I mean the players decide to re-roll, I will go with a 28 point buy.
Arcane Guyver
11-15-05, 08:02 PM I use the following rules:
Players - 28 point buy, 1st level = max HP, 2nd level on = 1/2 HD +1.
Important NPCs - 28 point buy, half HP every level + Heroic Spirit
Other NPCs - 25 point buy, half HP every level

BTW, Flaws are pretty useful to help players make the character they want (with quirks).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
trollbill 11-14-05, 10:24 AM	I am starting an Eberron campaign soon and will be using the Shadows of the Last War series of adventures plus some from Dungeon Magazine. I will be using a point buy system for character creation and am trying to decide whether to go with 28 or 32 point builds. Eberron is obviously a heroic campaign setting which implies 32 point, but the players will already be gaining a 'heroic' advantage from having Action Points, and I would like the campaign to be challenging (most of the players are pretty experienced, though not with Eberron). So given the above info, what is your opinion?
DarkWarriorKarg 11-14-05, 11:14 AM	I am starting an Eberron campaign soon and will be using the Shadows of the Last War series of adventures plus some from Dungeon Magazine. I will be using a point buy system for character creation and am trying to decide whether to go with 28 or 32 point builds. Eberron is obviously a heroic campaign setting which implies 32 point, but the players will already be gaining a 'heroic' advantage from having Action Points, and I would like the campaign to be challenging (most of the players are pretty experienced, though not with Eberron). So given the above info, what is your opinion? 32. helps the classes with M.A.D. such as paladin and monk. From what I've seen, 28 encourages 1 trick ponies.
il Kav 11-14-05, 11:17 AM	I'm for the 28 point system. Action points are a really big advantage for the PC, and eberron is a low-level setting... It's not Forgotten Realms (you will never encounter a black dragon just loitering in a swamp...), and super-human heroes risk to not find interesting challenges
ieattrollsforbreakfast 11-14-05, 11:41 AM	I always prefer to go with 30 or 32pts. Action Points aside, having less low ability scores encourages characters with a chance to develop abilities that aren't neccessarily related to your core character class. 32pts will certainly make PCs powerful, but it doesnt make them superhuman. In the hands of players that wont take advantage and make characters with 18, 18, 8, 8, 8, 8 in their ability scores, some very fun concepts can be created. A more typical distribution might be 16, 14, 14, 12, 12, 10. I'd also like to note that Eberron is only a low-level setting in terms of the NPCs and reactions to PCs. I actually tend to think Eberron makes a better high-level setting than the Forgotten Realms, since in Eberron the high levels are, well, high, in relation to everyone else. When you reach high levels in Eberron, adventures are epics without having to use epic rules.
Damien_Hiro 11-14-05, 11:46 AM	We chose 28 pts, because the characters are a cut above the rest, but not by a whole heck of a lot. I think 28 works well with a group of veterans that are capable of making balanced charcters and playing a decently challenging game. I would go with 32 if you have newer players in the group, it gives them enough points to spread the wealth a bit.
a_psh 11-14-05, 12:10 PM	I use 28 points. I also give the PCs 75% of max on all hit dice, however, which reduces reliance on high Con slightly. It works pretty nicely for us, with every character having several things they're good at but a notable area of specialization. And most folks don't dump 8s into Charisma, I've noticed (though our mages do tend to dump into Str). Mostly, this system works because practically every major NPC in the game is built with the standard array or 25 point buy (a few, those with equally surprising potential, do use 28 point buy... those tend to be the ones that also have Heroic Spirit, giving them 3 AP to burn in an encounter), and minor ones use 15 points or the non-elite array. As long as you're sticking to the baseline of using the standard array for major NPCs and non-elite scores for nearly everything else, 32 PB elevates the PCs just a bit too high, in my humble opinion.
Straylight 11-14-05, 11:23 PM	I think you need to look at the rest of your group to deicde. Some groups need lower-power characters to get a gritty and desperate feel to their games, some can get away with it with 32 or die-roll. Personally, if/when I use point-buy, it's always 32. The reason for this is that the PCs are supposed to be heroic. If they're only above average for the world, I think that detracts from the heroics, both in terms of character and of gameplay. Players will be afraid to take some risks with their characters because they're not sure if they can make the DCs I'll call. On the other hand, 32-point or die-roll characters tend to be generally more capable and can shine above and beyond even what an exceptional NPC can do. The players, in turn, are more willing to throw their characters (sometimes literally) into more hectic situations since they have more confidence in their ability to make high DCs. A lot of what stat-generation system you use depends on your DM. Does he like your games to be dark and desperate, a world where the characters are made of glass and the monsters of steel? Or does he prefer high-action games where the characters are paragons of virtue and power, able to stand toe-to-toe and blade-to-blade with the greatest evils of the gameworld? Specifically in Eberron, I think it is important for the characters to be better than "above average," since they have no safety net to speak of. There is no cavalry come to save the day here, and much of the time in Eberron, the only thing that's going to save your PCs are the PCs themselves and the ingenuity of their players.
AvonRekaes 11-14-05, 11:32 PM	Just to stick my own two cents in here... I use 45 point buy with gestalt rules. ^_^;;; I like to emphasis the pulp aspects of Eberron, making the PCs almost ridiculously heroic.
zambuka 11-15-05, 12:03 AM	I got for a straight 1 for 1 point method. You have 76 or 78 points to distribute amongst your stats, all stats start at 0 but can't be less than 3. It works and allows any character class without gimping non- essential stats. It lets you make your one trick pony but I find most players go for a more rounded distribution relying on the stat buffs as they level to make them more powerful. My players learned long ago that charisma is a bad place to have a dump stat.
Gantores 11-15-05, 06:12 PM	I made some first timer mistakes and used some alternate rolling rules from UA. I witnessed all rolls, and I have players with point totals as high as 92 (raw points from 0) and the lowest is 85. This, combined with the fact that the party varies in size from 7 - 9 players has created a power group which is tackeling challenges between 50 and 100% higher than their level. To make matters worse they are accomplishing this without the use of action points. There is a great deal of wealth that can be accumulated in Ebberon and if you have an Artificer who is willing to craft items for everyone, and other people willing to grab some crafting feats to support this further, your players can quickly outpace their power. Being able to gain access to crafted items of almost what ever they could desire at level 5 is very scary. If I can convince my players to re-roll (or die, whatever :devil: ) then I will be going with the 32 point buy, and the next time I kill them off... I mean the players decide to re-roll, I will go with a 28 point buy.
Arcane Guyver 11-15-05, 08:02 PM	I use the following rules: Players - 28 point buy, 1st level = max HP, 2nd level on = 1/2 HD +1. Important NPCs - 28 point buy, half HP every level + Heroic Spirit Other NPCs - 25 point buy, half HP every level BTW, Flaws are pretty useful to help players make the character they want (with quirks).