Post/Author/DateTime	Post
maddog0714 06-25-07, 02:25 PM	How long can airships fly? if they have a man at the helm or whatever, can it fly indefinately? Since it is a bound elemental, I would assume it may need rest?
Euangelion 06-25-07, 02:42 PM	The movement rates are for a 24 hour period, so one could assume that the elementals can keep "elementalling" indefinately. Thus time aloft is only limited by the needs of the crew (food, water, etc.) and the condition of the vessel. It is conceivable that with the use of the right magic, an airship could remain flying forever... "Oh, they never returned, oh, they never returned, and their fate is still unlearned..."
garner_adam 06-25-07, 03:50 PM	Due to the nature of the Bound Elemental I would say that at least every once in awhile the crew would want to make sure that the magical seals that are keeping the Elemental Bound don't come loose. This probably means docking in Zilargo and having a team inspect the ship. For the sake of safety most crews likely rebound the ship once a year.
Cifer 06-25-07, 04:51 PM	Why would an elemental need rest? To my knowledge, they don't even sleep. As long as you've got multiple helmsmen and are not afraid to sail in the dark, you're pretty much free to fly as long as you want. @Garner I'd assume there are multiple Lyrandar enclaves with stationed gnomes strewn across the Five Nations, simply because you don't want to carry an airship from Karrnath to Zilargo if it malfunctions.
Edymnion 06-25-07, 04:51 PM	Elementals are immune to fatigue, they don't get tired. Aside from needing to stop for repairs (which would be an entirely arbitrary amount of time, especially if there is an Artificer on board), they could fly indefinately.
Kensan_Oni 06-25-07, 04:53 PM	Which of course, kinda negates my idea of having an Elemental getting cranky and saying it doesn't wanna go on anymore, it's tired, and moving around is stupid, and it want's... well.. something... Ah well.
The Zod 06-25-07, 07:36 PM	In the Explorers Guide or the Players Guide can't remember which, a group of Gnomes basically form a contract, and bind the elemental for only 5 years of service. That way the elemental is a little more willing to help. But after that 5 years is up and the elemental is not let go and a new elemental is bound to the ship, it could get rather cranky.
Edymnion 06-25-07, 09:11 PM	Bah, Elementals are immortal, who says they even have a concept of time?
Rechan 06-25-07, 09:25 PM	Bah, Elementals are immortal, who says they even have a concept of time? As are outsiders. But the Planar Ally (and Lesser) version still have a time limit. And pretty much all "pacts or deals with outsiders" in literature has always been a time frame. Ergo "a year and a day" or something like that. Just because the elemental is immortal doesn't mean that it wants to spend forever working on a ship.
El_Machinae 06-26-07, 08:02 AM	Which of course, kinda negates my idea of having an Elemental getting cranky and saying it doesn't wanna go on anymore, it's tired, and moving around is stupid, and it want's... well.. something... Ah well. It might still say these things; it can get bored
CannibalSmith 06-26-07, 11:14 AM	Which of course, kinda negates my idea of having an Elemental getting cranky and saying it doesn't wanna go on anymore, it's tired, and moving around is stupid, and it want's... well.. something... Ah well. But it does! It takes a focus item and constant presence of a dragonmarked, or regular application of Charm Monster or better spell to keep the elemental docile.
Euangelion 06-26-07, 03:29 PM	It might still say these things; it can get bored A fire elemental is never bored if it's burning... A water elemental is never bored if it's wet... An air elemental is never bored if it's blowing... An earth elemental is never bored if it's grounded... It's just what they do. In short, I stick by my previous statement.
Cifer 06-26-07, 03:33 PM	As are outsiders. But the Planar Ally (and Lesser) version still have a time limit. And pretty much all "pacts or deals with outsiders" in literature has always been a time frame. Ergo "a year and a day" or something like that. Just because the elemental is immortal doesn't mean that it wants to spend forever working on a ship. Now, there's Outsiders and then there's Outsiders. Most outsiders clearly have an origin in the human(-oid) psyche: Quori embody dreams, Daelkyr are agents of madness, angels are what we call good and devils and demons are all kinds of bad. All of them are associated with human stuff - elementals, on the other hand side, derive from nonliving nature. That's why I'd consider the mind of an elemental a pretty alien thing and that's also one of the reasons noone important has ever complained about them being enslaved when even constructs are set free.
Holy_Beholder 06-26-07, 04:21 PM	Running out of food and water could probe a problem, although decanters of endless water fix the second problem. If I remember right, there is some magic item that makes tasteless gruel you can eat, but I don't think tasteless gruel would make the crew happy. Sure money would, but if you never land, they never spend it, and you run out of it eventually too.
FaelonOnyxblade 06-26-07, 04:59 PM	For technical purposes and intents, the ship itself could fly forever (barring no structural damage happens to the struts holding the elemental in place). Slightly off of that path; due to repairs, upkeep, replenishing supplies, and letting your crew off so they don't go insane from cabin fever. You'll have to land/dock at some point. Plot point - I think it would be cool to incorporate an abandoned (haunted) airship into a story where the ship was near enough to the Mourning that the crew died, but somehow the elemental and ship came out "unscathed". Perhaps the ship's crew lives on in a quasi-ethereal state and/or the ship has become bound with the elemental and is now a "living" ship. - For this purpose, I would say that the shipe could essentially fly itself forever until destroyed.
Romulus LoneWolf 06-26-07, 06:20 PM	A fire elemental is never bored if it's burning... A water elemental is never bored if it's wet... An air elemental is never bored if it's blowing... An earth elemental is never bored if it's grounded... It's just what they do. In short, I stick by my previous statement. I dunno.. I'd get bored just spinning in circles around an Airship for 5 years...
Rechan 06-26-07, 11:06 PM	A fire elemental is never bored if it's burning... A water elemental is never bored if it's wet... An air elemental is never bored if it's blowing... An earth elemental is never bored if it's grounded... It's just what they do. In short, I stick by my previous statement. Yes, but no one is telling the fire elemental what to burn. No one is telling the air elemental where to blow. The issue is not "it's going to get bored doing what its nature is to do", but that it has a master telling it what to do. If elementals are hunkydorey to be bound to elemental vessels, why not to other things? Personal bodyguards and having them work to power mills.
CannibalSmith 06-27-07, 12:34 AM	[..] elementals, on the other hand side, derive from nonliving nature. Druids disagree.
The White Sorcerer 06-27-07, 03:40 AM	A fire elemental is never bored if it's burning... A water elemental is never bored if it's wet... An air elemental is never bored if it's blowing... An earth elemental is never bored if it's grounded... Geh, that's just the kind of propaganda justification that the Man uses to keep the elemental brother down!
Romulus LoneWolf 06-27-07, 07:26 AM	Personally, I see Airships much like Zeppelins.. They're not made to land directly on the ground, but they can come down low enough to be flown into a hanger for some occasional repairwork.
Nundahl 06-27-07, 08:00 AM	Personally, I see Airships much like Zeppelins.. They're not made to land directly on the ground, but they can come down low enough to be flown into a hanger for some occasional repairwork. Well that much is absolutely correct, they are not capable of landing. I don't have my books on hand (I'm at work) but I believe its Explorer's Handbook that makes the statement. Here is where I weigh in on the aforementioned points ... - Elementals I believe certainly do have a concept of time, they are intelligent beings afterall. I just see their needs and emotions as being more primitive despite their potential intelligence, in this respect I give them a hybrid of the arguments seen here. A fire elemental is happy to burn, probably not forever, it will grow "bored", but I must agree with Edy that to an eternal being with a concept of time that is truly alien to anything we conceive, 5 years is but a drop in the ocean. -Sure, an Elemental does not need rest. But a crew does. The ship does. Remember that although an Elemental powers the ship, the crew still does the navigating. Those fin like sails have to be hauled to cut the wind and turn the ship, the deck needs cleaning, the food prepared, food stores rationed, waste pumping (unless you're just dropping your business all over the Aundarian countryside everyday). There's a lot of work to be done and people need a break. Certainly people could handle this day in and day out, but does anyone want to? Also, magical repair spells while in mid air would work just fine, my only concern being how many spellcasters are at hand on a given ship? In Eberron especially, what level are they? You're going to run out of repair spells or want to save your spells/day for other means. I guess there is always some sort of wand or wondrous item, but keep doing that and it will get pricey. (Then again, your ship cost you how much money? I guess its worth it ...) Just my thoughts, hope you enjoy them.
Cifer 06-27-07, 08:04 AM	Druids disagree. Is Fire alive? What about air? Has your soda ever wanted to mate with another can? Earth is the only thing that might be seen as somewhat living, but earth elementals usually come in the shape of rocks, metals and gems, not grass and plants. If elementals are hunkydorey to be bound to elemental vessels, why not to other things? Personal bodyguards and having them work to power mills. Because that probably would have the common sense of using a nuclear reactor to power your wrist watch. Binding elementals is still extremely expensive - why use them to do what a warforged or the normal force of wind could do just as well?
El_Machinae 06-27-07, 12:41 PM	I dunno.. I'd get bored just spinning in circles around an Airship for 5 years... Yeah, exactly. Elementals don't mind being immortal, but get them a subscription to Scientific American or something.
CannibalSmith 06-27-07, 01:17 PM	Is Fire alive? What about air? Naturally! They give life to all creatures. Unliving things can't do that. Has your soda ever wanted to mate with another can? Soda is as dead as any arcane beverage can be. It rots your teeth and upsets the natural balance in your body and hence the burping. Earth is the only thing that might be seen as somewhat living, but earth elementals usually come in the shape of rocks, metals and gems, not grass and plants. But you overlook the fact that the earth with it's rocks and minerals give life to the grass and plants. Pluck a plant out of soil and try to keep it alive, and see the truth of my words for yourself. (This post in tongue-in-cheek.)
The White Sorcerer 06-28-07, 12:51 AM	Is Fire alive? What about air? In a druid's opinion? Yes.
El_Machinae 06-28-07, 09:23 AM	Maybe, not necessarily always though. Some fire is alive, some is not. It's like if I asked if meat was alive. It can be, unless it's dead.
Cifer 06-28-07, 09:58 AM	In a druid's opinion? Yes. I doubt it. D&D has a very simple way of discerning living and non-living things: Try to cast a spell at it and see whether it's a valid target.
CannibalSmith 06-28-07, 10:14 AM	I doubt it. D&D has a very simple way of discerning living and non-living things: Try to cast a spell at it and see whether it's a valid target. Undead and constucts are valid targets. Are you saying that they're alive?
Sergikins 06-28-07, 10:45 AM	Has your soda ever wanted to mate with another can? one time i gave a bottle of soda some pills and it blew up in m face. maybe that was it telling me knock it off. soda does have feelings! i mean, the problem is after that, it never did it again
The White Sorcerer 06-29-07, 07:09 AM	I doubt it. D&D has a very simple way of discerning living and non-living things: Try to cast a spell at it and see whether it's a valid target. *casts pyrotechnics on a bonfire* Yup, it's alive. *casts pyrotechnics at a human* Nope, not alive. Or, your method is flawed.
CannibalSmith 06-29-07, 07:24 AM	For that matter: *casts Animate Fire* *casts Animate Water*
El_Machinae 06-29-07, 01:42 PM	You could also define alive as "A legitimate target of a Resurrection spell". Though aliveness and ensoulment are morphable concepts in DnD.
Nived 06-29-07, 03:01 PM	Interesting idea for an adventure, 'lost airship' found hovering high atmosphere, completely deserted. No signs of what happened. The ship might fall apart any day from the magical strain of its construction and no one to do maintenance for however long... can the PCs solve the mystery?
The White Sorcerer 06-30-07, 01:24 AM	You could also define alive as "A legitimate target of a Resurrection spell". You need to be dead to be a valid target for that, actually.:P
decembersfrost 06-30-07, 01:26 AM	You need to be dead to be a valid target for that, actually.:P Think the poster meant -after- being resurrected by the spell.
The White Sorcerer 06-30-07, 02:13 AM	IIRC outsiders can't be raised or resurrected. Does that mean they're not alive? Or maybe you just can't determine if a creature is alive that easily.
Ryoden_Anariavas 07-30-07, 11:59 AM	In response to those posts on if the elemental is bored or not IIRC the elemental is in a dormant state and the ship mearly uses its energy. That would suggest that the entire time the elemental is inside the kyber shard it is "asleep". Then again that would be a bit contradictory to the apposed CHA check bit. of course niether Kieth Baker nor I use that rule system so oh well.