Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Phasma Felis 05-15-07, 02:01 PM	Is there any canon info on how many creation forges existed before their official destruction, and where they were located? Is it ever stated definitively whether they were imported from Xen'drik ruins, constructed independently, or some combination? I know there's supposedly only two still in operation; Merrix d'Cannith has one in Sharn, and the Lord of Blades controls a damaged one in Cyre.
dunkeykong 05-15-07, 05:38 PM	nope, not really. thats what adds to the mystery. And what makes it easy to drop wherever you like
Phasma Felis 05-15-07, 06:43 PM	nope, not really. thats what adds to the mystery. And what makes it easy to drop wherever you like Cool. That's actually what I was hoping for. :)
Edymnion 05-15-07, 10:08 PM	Is there any canon info on how many creation forges existed before their official destruction, and where they were located? Is it ever stated definitively whether they were imported from Xen'drik ruins, constructed independently, or some combination?There should have been at least several dozen, IMO. We have Keith's novels mentioning a major research facilities as having a creation forge of their own, plus the purely military output locations. So several dozen, maybe a hundred or more, but I doubt it went that high. As for how they were built, that part we know. House Cannith built the forges in Khovaire, using schema and perhaps some prototypes from Xen'Drik, but all of the production forges were built and operated by Canniths.
(Psi)SeveredHead 05-15-07, 10:11 PM	The warforged design is partially based on stuff found in Xen'drik; the same may apply to the creation forges, but I doubt it. The first human-made warforged* were made one-at-a-time rather than in groups, which were expensive. I believe this occurred before the invention of the creation forge. * These were big dumb warforged, like the warforged titan/juggernaut.
Nived 05-16-07, 03:02 AM	As many as your plot requires.
Cifer 05-16-07, 11:17 AM	I'd guess at around a half dozen per nation, with a concentration in ex-Cyre (hey, that means those didn't have to be dismantled - what a saving in costs!).
dunkeykong 05-16-07, 05:24 PM	As many as your plot requires. Amen.
(Psi)SeveredHead 05-16-07, 05:39 PM	I'd guess at around a half dozen per nation, with a concentration in ex-Cyre (hey, that means those didn't have to be dismantled - what a saving in costs!). The Lord of Blades is about to hit the Mother Lode! Plot twist!
Phasma Felis 05-16-07, 07:42 PM	There should have been at least several dozen, IMO. We have Keith's novels mentioning a major research facilities as having a creation forge of their own, plus the purely military output locations. So several dozen, maybe a hundred or more, but I doubt it went that high. As for how they were built, that part we know. House Cannith built the forges in Khovaire, using schema and perhaps some prototypes from Xen'Drik, but all of the production forges were built and operated by Canniths. Ah, cool, that's good to know. I'm working on a fanbook on the nature, origins, "physiology" and "ecology" of the warforged in particular and Eberronian constructs in general It's mainly for my own amusement, but I'd prefer not to contradict canon except where it's completely nonsensical. :)
Cifer 05-16-07, 08:18 PM	@Psi Well, I guess he had to salvage parts from at least three of the forges to get one semi-functional. Presumeably they weren't that stable and the spells bound within them decided that wandering off and wreaking some havoc might be a great idea when the Mourning hit.
mhacdebhandia 05-16-07, 08:59 PM	It's also possible that there's nothing wrong with the creation forge controlled by Lord of Blades - nothing, that is, apart from what the Mourning did to it. (Which could also be "nothing", but that's no fun!)
Cifer 05-17-07, 06:08 AM	Well, it's been established that the Warforged he produces are somewhat disfigured and otherwise... abnormal. Of course, this might simply result from the fact that the LoBster may have had to jury rig the forge to circumvent the Mark of Making requirement - or (if he is Aaren d'Cannith gone RMM) that his mark has become twisted by his transformation. So many possibilities...
Shady314 05-17-07, 08:49 AM	Hmmmm how about 13?... :) That's usually the number I like to go with in Eberron when the number of something is a mystery/unknown. But unlike the usual 13-1 we have the 12 forges destroyed and the 1 left Merrix owns. The LoB's doesn't count since his forge is all messed up. Just like how Vol has the MoD but it's all messed up. :)
Lord_Madrigan 05-17-07, 11:42 PM	It was stated that the creation forges where dimantled, that does not mean they can't be rebuilt. So where are the parts being stored? Didn't one of the books mention Merrix wanted to put a creation forge in stormreach since it's outside the treaty of Thronehold's coverage.
Cifer 05-18-07, 05:46 AM	@Shady 13 doesn't sound like they would be enough to create the armies that fought in the Last War. Of course, it's all a question of dimension, but if Merrix' forge isn't an exceptionally small one in comparison to the others, I doubt they'd have the capacity to produce the required numbers.
Shady314 05-18-07, 06:02 AM	@Shady 13 doesn't sound like they would be enough to create the armies that fought in the Last War. Of course, it's all a question of dimension, but if Merrix' forge isn't an exceptionally small one in comparison to the others, I doubt they'd have the capacity to produce the required numbers. Well since we know almost nothing about creation forges and they're just eldritch machines 13 might even be more than enough. Maybe there were just 7. Isn't there only like a hundred k warforged in Eberron? I forget if their numbers are anywhere. The point is Cannith created armies of warforged over the course of decades. 30 years wasn't it? And demand seems to have far outstripped supply. Yet we have only 100k warforged? Yes some died but warforged were not coup de graced. They were fought till disabled so they could be repaired and turned to your side. KB has suggested many battles were orchestrated with the point being to capture a force of warforged and turn them to your cause. So it could be there were many creation forges that moved slowly or there were fewer that worked faster. But they'd have to be pretty slow to have Cannith make hundreds of them. We also have no idea what kind of supplies were necessary but let's assume it wasn't easy and cheap to get all of that in a time of continous war even if you are a neutral house. Transportation also becomes a factor in cost and time. I'd think most orders are placed on the level of a brigade then there's training time and space. That's a lot of logistics. Which makes sense if you fear attack and so spread your production out but Cannith did not have to worry about attacks on their facilities from nations thanks to their neutral status. So why spread out your facilities when you can centralize them? Specifically in Cyre? But if that doesn't do it for ya how about 13 major ones that did the full on war production while smaller research forges that turned out smaller experimental batches dotted the continent. I do think hundreds of forges is too much. Each one requires a Cannith Dragonmark to operate so you'd need hundreds of teams of Dragonmarked Cannith all across Khorvaire and doing not much else. Plus with small numbers you get kewl names like Facility 12 that loses specialness if there is a Facility 119. :) I just feel smaller gives a more special feeling to them you lose when a creation forge was just one of hundreds. Just my opinion of course. As for Merrix's forge... why would Merrix want to create an army of warforged with it? He uses it for experiments to learn more about the warforged which he is obsessed with. His forge probably would let him crank them out much faster (if he could procure and store all the nessary materials without arousing suspicions) but then he couldn't hide it anymore and the 5N and the Dragonmarked Houses would come crashing down on him. And he doesn't need to make 1k warforged at a time to learn about them. 1 at a time slowly. Adjusting, testing, refining etc. till he reaches his goal. Which is not to have an army.
Cifer 05-19-07, 02:02 PM	Yes some died but warforged were not coup de graced. I wouldn't be too sure about that. Especially when you don't have time to salvage the 'forged after the battle or aren't sure about winning at all, you deny your enemy ressources by couping them - after all, it's not like you kill anyone, right? Smashing a construct is a lot easier than slitting the throat of a soldier. It might even have been a kind of scorched earth tactics to kill your own disabled WF if you can't take them with you while withdrawing. But they'd have to be pretty slow to have Cannith make hundreds of them. I'm not talking about hundreds - around five or six per nation sounds a little better. That would make for maybe thirty forges in total, which would include smaller experimental ones. Further, I don't see logistics decreasing when you centralize production since you'd have to carry the raw materials through the whole continent to the forge because the local ressources probably won't suffice. With forges dotting the landscape, you'd be able to minimize transports, which is quite practical because while you have something like diplomatic immunity from the nations, local bandits and smaller warlords that don't deal with you might raid caravans when the nations have their soldiers tied up in warfare. Plus with small numbers you get kewl names like Facility 12 that loses specialness if there is a Facility 119. Oh, you still get cool names, especially when the characters somewhen stumble through the Mournland to discover a vault door marked with "Facility 1" As for Merrix's forge... why would Merrix want to create an army of warforged with it? He wouldn't. However, the forge probably had a purpose before WF production was outlawed and if this purpose wasn't research then, one would have to ask how a small number of forges of small size (I don't really see Merrix' forge as big; it's small enough to hide within Sharn, even small enough that most members of Cannith South know only rumours about its existence) would be able to build an army.
Shady314 05-19-07, 05:58 PM	I wouldn't be too sure about that. I would. A warforged fighter is worth a lot more to a nation than it's human fighters. Keith Baker in the ask KB thread said the individual price of a adamantine wf 2nd lvl fighter could be between 3-4k gp. It was a guess but I think it's a good price. This makes warforged too valuable a property to just obliterate when you can turn them to your side. Especially when you don't have time to salvage the 'forged after the battle or aren't sure about winning at all, you deny your enemy ressources by couping them - after all, it's not like you kill anyone, right? Smashing a construct is a lot easier than slitting the throat of a soldier. It might even have been a kind of scorched earth tactics to kill your own disabled WF if you can't take them with you while withdrawing. You might kill your own disabled warforged while following a scorched earth policy. I agree and that'd be interesting. But scorched earth policies are not the norm. Neither are battles so far from the front lines you can't get inert POW warforged repaired by your nation's artificers and Cannith artificers on retainer. (Like Lei in KB's novels.) I'm not talking about hundreds - around five or six per nation sounds a little better. That would make for maybe thirty forges in total, which would include smaller experimental ones. I still think that's too much. KB also said in the AKB thread creation forges were rare and powerful. I don't think 30 counts as rare. This is just my personal preference of course. And I'm a big fan of the 13-1 mystery of Eberron. Further, I don't see logistics decreasing when you centralize production :confused: It's almost impossible for logistics NOT to decrease when you centralize. You do know what logistics is right? The more locations you must coordinate between the more complex and difficult it becomes to maximize our efficiency. since you'd have to carry the raw materials through the whole continent That's not terribly difficult. The lightning rail comes to mind. Also I'm sure most forges were set up at the top Cannith enclaves not in remote locations, making access easier and supplies already established. And all resources they need are an entire continent away from every single forge???? to the forge because the local ressources probably won't suffice. With forges dotting the landscape, you'd be able to minimize transports, Until you have to transport the finished product. :rolleyes: which is quite practical because while you have something like diplomatic immunity from the nations, local bandits and smaller warlords that don't deal with you might raid caravans when the nations have their soldiers tied up in warfare. 1) Hundreds of smaller transports=easier to attack for bandits not harder. 2) I think Cannith can afford decent security. Oh, you still get cool names, especially when the characters somewhen stumble through the Mournland to discover a vault door marked with "Facility 1" I said the kewlness came from the specialness. If there is 30 other creation forges Facility 1 May have been the first but what makes it so much better than Facility 30? In KB's novels Lei and company are shocked to find a Creation Forge. Obviously Lei thought she knew the location of every other forge and was surprised to find one. Why should they be shocked if forges were not such a big deal. He wouldn't. However, the forge probably had a purpose before WF production was outlawed and if this purpose wasn't research then, one would have to ask how a small number of forges of small size (I don't really see Merrix' forge as big; it's small enough to hide within Sharn, even small enough that most members of Cannith South know only rumours about its existence) would be able to build an army. :confused: I said Merrix did NOT want to build an army. I'm also very confused why you seem to be equating the physical size of a forge to it's production capacity. It's an eldritch machine. It could literally be a small box and crank out warforged. I don't think that's the case of course. Going by the art and the ancient forge in SoX it seems forges take up the space of a large room. Merrix the super villain should have trouble hiding a large room? With all the buildings Cannith owns? Doubtful. I'm sure Merrix's forge could be turned up to a higher volume. If there were tiny forges that could only produce say one warforged a day Cannith might have been able to get at least a few of those exempted from the Treaty of Thronehold. I find it more likely every forge had the capacity for mass production (though what mass is for a forge we just don't know) provided you have the materials and so every forge was ordered dismantled. I'm hoping Forge of War will give us some details on the forges. There's a good chance with how integral they are to warforged and how integral warforged are to the Last War. (Crosses fingers)
Cifer 05-21-07, 10:04 AM	You might kill your own disabled warforged while following a scorched earth policy. I agree and that'd be interesting. But scorched earth policies are not the norm. Not quite. Effectively, it's game theory. In the last battle ever fought against an opponent where he controls the "disputed" warforged, he'd probably destroy them to deny you ressources. That means it's always better for you to destroy them yourself one battle short of the final one while they are still more or less yours, because you don't have to fight them then. Of course, this means the enemy, if he is intelligent enough, would destroy them one battle before that, and so on until you arrive in the present, making it a good idea to destroy your warforged in any case when you're losing and you don't believe you will get them back immediately and without problems. I still think that's too much. KB also said in the AKB thread creation forges were rare and powerful. I don't think 30 counts as rare. 30 strewn over a whole continent? Yes, I'd consider that rare. That's not terribly difficult. The lightning rail comes to mind. Also I'm sure most forges were set up at the top Cannith enclaves not in remote locations, making access easier and supplies already established. And all resources they need are an entire continent away from every single forge???? No. It's likely that the ressources needed for one massive forge are not found in the necessary concentration in the immediate vicinity, meaning you'd have to move them to the forge from pretty far away. Look at today's industry: Most major corporations have facilities strewn across the landscape to shorten transport ways from the suppliers and to the buyers. Further, the lightning rail system almost broke down during the first days of the war when the bridge between Karrnath and Thrane was severed. You'd also have to transport every good you need to a major city connected to the rail first. Until you have to transport the finished product. The finished product is quite capable of transporting itself, 24 hours a day, especially when it's already built and trained near the places it shall be brought to. 1) Hundreds of smaller transports=easier to attack for bandits not harder. In your system, you'd have the same hundreds of smaller transports since the total number of suppliers needed would be more or less equal - the difference is that you'd be bringing the stuff to the lightning rail where it is to be transported while I would directly bring it to the forges. 2) I think Cannith can afford decent security. Can? Of course. Wants to? Most certainly not. If there is 30 other creation forges Facility 1 May have been the first but what makes it so much better than Facility 30? The place where it all begun? Where Aaren constructed the first one (and possibly left his notebook behind)? I said Merrix did NOT want to build an army. I know - but he probably is using a preexisting forge which must have had a use before he went there. If this use was not small-scale research, it was army production. I'm also very confused why you seem to be equating the physical size of a forge to it's production capacity. It's an eldritch machine. It could literally be a small box and crank out warforged. Of course it could. However, it feels better to me if it's of an "appropriate" size. Call it suspension of disbelief. Going by the art and the ancient forge in SoX it seems forges take up the space of a large room. The art might only show the room where the final product comes out while the production might take place elsewhere.
Toloran 05-21-07, 04:45 PM	In KB's novels Lei and company are shocked to find a Creation Forge. Obviously Lei thought she knew the location of every other forge and was surprised to find one. Why should they be shocked if forges were not such a big deal. Actually, she was surprised because no one outside the family should have had a Creation Forge. By there being one there, that means that rogue members of House Cannith were running the facility. At least that is how I understood it =\
Shady314 05-21-07, 05:17 PM	Not quite. Effectively, it's game theory. In the last battle ever fought against an opponent where he controls the "disputed" warforged, he'd probably destroy them to deny you ressources. That means it's always better for you to destroy them yourself one battle short of the final one while they are still more or less yours, because you don't have to fight them then. Of course, this means the enemy, if he is intelligent enough, would destroy them one battle before that, and so on until you arrive in the present, making it a good idea to destroy your warforged in any case when you're losing and you don't believe you will get them back immediately and without problems. :rolleyes: You have got to be joking. This would not be the norm. Warforged are ultimately an expensive piece of equipment. It is not SOP to destroy your equipment. You don't usually KNOW your going to lose and when you're losing you don't usually have time to stop and ruin all your equipment. Yes this could have sometimes been done and yes it'd be interesting but it's not the normal course of events. Warforged were much more valuable than regular POWs and were not coup de graced anymore than human POWs. 30 strewn over a whole continent? Yes, I'd consider that rare. I wouldn't. And it's not over the whole continent really. Were there any in Darguun? Droaam? They were probably limited to the 5N. It's just personal preference anyways. What are you even arguing? I have only tried to explain my personal reasoning for why I'd use 13. No. It's likely that the ressources needed for one massive forge are not found in the necessary concentration in the immediate vicinity, meaning you'd have to move them to the forge from pretty far away. Look at today's industry: Most major corporations have facilities strewn across the landscape to shorten transport ways from the suppliers and to the buyers. Further, the lightning rail system almost broke down during the first days of the war when the bridge between Karrnath and Thrane was severed. You'd also have to transport every good you need to a major city connected to the rail first. ? One massive forge ? When did I say 1? I said 13. There's also no reason to assume the materials they needed were all far away. I imagine most forges were set up in top Cannith enclaves. I imagine most Cannith enclaves were built on or near sources of resources like quarries and large forests for lumber etc. Cannith enclaves are also already established meaning they ALREADY had a supply chain in place for that facility and is only a matter of increasing the shipments. Or if some were built specifically for forges why not build them near the resources you need? Why are we assuming Cannith is a bunch of idiots with no access to resources? They're a giant multinational corporation that has been receiving raw materials and building things from it for more than 1k years. The lightning rail ran fine in Cyre. Not every stop needs to be a major city. Of course some Cannith enclaves would be in major cities so that's no biggie. For the rest a small station near the forge facility for the lightning rail to stopand drop off materials is not a stretch of the imagination. You think the rail is JUST for passenger travel to and from cities? Please stop equating size with production capacity when talking about eldritch machines. Your constantly stating it as fact when it's your personal interpretation is annoying. The finished product is quite capable of transporting itself, 24 hours a day, especially when it's already built and trained near the places it shall be brought to. :rolleyes: You mean when they were finished with the incredibly expensive warforged and had equipped them with good materials they give them a map and make them walk to the army they're supposed to join. I don't see it. If I'm paying tens of thousands of gold or more for a warforged regiment they better arrive quickly and all at once. In your system, you'd have the same hundreds of smaller transports since the total number of suppliers needed would be more or less equal - the difference is that you'd be bringing the stuff to the lightning rail where it is to be transported while I would directly bring it to the forges. ?????? Your not making any sense. I've centralized production. That means fewer shipments with more easily maximized distribution. This is basic logistics. You've also made zero sense explaing how you'd magically ship goods directly to the forges bypassing the lightning rail, caravans or air ships. Surely they aren't using teleportation? Can? Of course. Wants to? Most certainly not. How in the world are they supposed to get around paying for security? Yes I'm sure they'd love not having to pay money for things if they didn't have to. But guards for your shipment of important goods is kind of a no brainer. Everyone pays for their shipments to be guarded. The place where it all begun? Where Aaren constructed the first one (and possibly left his notebook behind)? That could easily be at any forge. It could easily be anywhere. My point simply remains a place loses it's specialness when you have something like 30 sprinkled around the 5N. Personal preference obviously. I know - but he probably is using a preexisting forge which must have had a use before he went there. If this use was not small-scale research, it was army production. I don't buy into the idea there were two types of forges. I think there was just one type and it was called a creation forge. I'm fairly certain Merrix is NOT using the same forge in the same place as what was used during the Last War. For one that'd make it very very difficult to hide. I find it far more likely he took pieces just before dismantling and built his own in a secret location in Sharn. Or perhaps he built his own from scratch. This means it can just be your regular old creation forge. Nothing difficult to imagine about it. If Merrix can't build a forge from scratch who can? Of course it could. However, it feels better to me if it's of an "appropriate" size. Call it suspension of disbelief. Yeah it's all personal preference. I don't know why you've felt the need to target mine and call them into question. I don't find my thinking on this subject far-fetched. The art might only show the room where the final product comes out while the production might take place elsewhere. Might. But since they're eldritch machines I'm giving them a certain compactness. It makes them a little more threatening and special. THAT"S! all you need to build a warforged army! :)