Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Acceptableloss 05-12-05, 12:53 AM	So in the last gaming session I ran for my Eberron group, I used the Raw Fish Rumble (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebsh/20050328a) idea from Steal This Hook. The group pursued a kenku assassin whose guild had abducted a friend of theirs into the upper class Sharn restaurant. The assassin Spider Climbed up the side of the two story aquarium and was bombarding the PCs with poisoned darts until the PC warforged fighter charged up and obliterated the aquarium glass with his polearm. Suffice to say they trashed the restaurant. The session ended with them capturing the assassin, with the owner of the restaurant screaming that he would see them hung and the PC paladin insisting they would pay for the damage. What I need is a good estimate for the price tag to repair the restaurant in D&D money. A list of the damages: :clap: 10' by 10' by 25' glass aquarium destroyed Most of the (somewhat rare) fish in the aquarium probably dead A few inches of water throughout the wooden floored restaurant ~6 diners knocked unconscious by a Shockwave spell from the assassin's wand ~12 diners received minor cuts and abrasions from broken glass mixed in with the water from the shattered aquarium (House Jorasco healing bill) A couple tables and chairs broken A few dozen expensive dinners ruined Additional charges to clean up all the water and replace table linens and various decorations They managed to not fire off any Fireballs or Flame Strikes in the restaurant so there isn't as much collateral damage as there could be. The PCs have a good quantity of coin on hand to pay for the damage, but I don't want make them use it all unless they realistically did that many GP of damage. So what should the total bill for this mess be? Keep in mind this does not include any issues with the Sharn Watch who may fine them, and they will at the very least have to deal with unless they flee the scene.
Beleriphon 05-12-05, 01:02 AM	They managed to not fire off any Fireballs or Flame Strikes in the restaurant so there isn't as much collateral damage as there could be. The PCs have a good quantity of coin on hand to pay for the damage, but I don't want make them use it all unless they realistically did that many GP of damage. So what should the total bill for this mess be? Keep in mind this does not include any issues with the Sharn Watch who may fine them, and they will at the very least have to deal with unless they flee the scene. I'd personally lay the tag at around a few thousand gold, nearly destorying a person's livelihood is worth at least that much. If nothing else find the most expensive rent you can in S:CoT and then mulitply by 12.
kupek 05-12-05, 01:21 AM	This is going to sound kind of mean, but hear me out. Whatever you settle on, I think it should be far beyond the means of the PCs to pay, especially if the PCs are somewhat low level OR the campaign is fairly young. That's not to say they should be hung for their damages, but this is a textbook perfect plot hook to lead into something else. If it were me: I'd arrange for the PCs' hides to be saved by some powerful entity or organization; it doesn't really matter what. Something approprate to your campaign if your characters have been running this campaign awhile would be good if such an entity or organization exists, if not, open to the organizations section of the ECS, and pick one =P This is the perfect option to establish a patron relationship with the PCs and introduce a major character who can become an important, if not central figure to your campaign. Perhaps a righteous House Cannith member suspects another member of performing unethical experiments on warforged but can't mount a full investigation without it being blocked politically by other members of the house. Perhaps the Order of the Emerald Claw needs spies, and is willing to save the PCs so that they can be used as expendible intelligence. Eventually, if the patron is benevolent, then the PCs should eventually end up with a mutually agreeable relationship. If not, the PCs should be given a chance to throw off whatever control their malicious "patron" has over them, and perhaps to extract revenge. Speaking from experience, there's little that PCs love more than to finally achieve freedom from, and even revenge upon a person who was using and manipulating them for his own schemes.
zambuka 05-12-05, 01:51 AM	Whatever you settle on, I think it should be far beyond the means of the PCs to pay, especially if the PCs are somewhat low level OR the campaign is fairly young. That's not to say they should be hung for their damages, but this is a textbook perfect plot hook to lead into something else. I wholeheartedly agree to this idea. Not only have they destroyed the restaurant, they have caused severe water damage to many of the premesis below the restaurant. Remember Sharn = lots of towers, Upper Class = top of those towers. When you dump that much water (probably around 6000 cubic feet or more, that's a decent sized swimming pool) into a small area things are going to get damaged and that water has to go somewhere, that somewhere is down. I'm not saying everything below the restaurant is damaged, mostly it would be the three or four floors below them. Considering the upper class nature and location of the restaurant this would inevitably mean some very very expensive stuff would be damaged. Me, If I was to be really nasty, I would have the bill for the restaurant something quite payable but soon (a few hours later) spring the really expensive bill for the damages to some art house or antiques store that set up shop below the restaurant.
Just another user 05-12-05, 02:46 AM	This is going to sound kind of mean, but hear me out. Whatever you settle on, I think it should be far beyond the means of the PCs to pay, especially if the PCs are somewhat low level OR the campaign is fairly young. That's not to say they should be hung for their damages, but this is a textbook perfect plot hook to lead into something else. If it were me: I disagree, what you had there was a perfect action movie scene, now, I'm not saying the characters actions must have not conseguences, but if you make them too harsh next time they would play it more safe and with more safe I mean less funny. You can't expect the players to put up such cool scenes if you punish them for it. I'd say 1000-3000 gold coins in total, no matter if realistic or not, also if someone of then have the "Favored in house" feat this could be a good moment to use it to minimize the damage. also, who was the friend that was abducted? Maybe his family/organization/DM house could intervene to cover the damage cost, after all the PCs was trying to save one of their member.
Setherial 05-12-05, 04:28 AM	This is going to sound kind of mean, but hear me out. Whatever you settle on, I think it should be far beyond the means of the PCs to pay, especially if the PCs are somewhat low level OR the campaign is fairly young. That's not to say they should be hung for their damages, but this is a textbook perfect plot hook to lead into something else. If it were me: I'd arrange for the PCs' hides to be saved by some powerful entity or organization; I would go with this idea, it adds another layer of complexety, a third party the players are indebted to. This could prove a nice test for someone like a paladin who shouldn't do things he knows will harm others or are unlawfull but he can't break his word either :)
Brastan 05-12-05, 04:38 AM	It may not matter if they can pay. The Sharn Watch does take a very dim view of adventures (especially out of towners) wrecking the Upper Class areas of Sharn. Did any of them get off some of the spells on the restricted spell list in Sharn:CoT? :plotting: Sorry, I wish I had my stronghold builders guide with me right now but I don't. I also don't think money is going to cover all of it. Who were the dinners? Any of them well to do Dragon Marked house people? City officials? Crime figures? Money won't help them out of this one, it's all about the contacts at this point. I don't think the owner is going to want the money, as he likely has enough to repair the damage himself. I think he would rather see the PCs hung. Their public deaths might help pacify his rich customers and convince them to return to his restaurant. I guess that the total cost should not run more than 5,000 GP. That's just off the top of my head with no books or calculations. The real damage is social not monetary. As an aside I'm surprised that the tank wasn't Glassteel. If it was I'm not sure the owner would have the guts to press the issue with the Warforged(a.k.a War Machine) that broke it.
MarkB 05-12-05, 05:20 AM	10' by 10' by 25' glass aquarium destroyed Make Whole, probably cast by an Artificer-for-hire unless there's a Cleric in the party. Charge at double the cost of the scroll. Most of the (somewhat rare) fish in the aquarium probably dead Loads of wiggle-room here - depending upon rarity, could be anything from dozens to thousands of GP. A few inches of water throughout the wooden floored restaurant As mentioned, this is going to cause problems down below unless there was an exterior window for most of the water to leave by. Did the restaurant have a wine cellar? You might be able to get away with using Prestidigitation to pull out most of the water through either its 'clean' or 'warm' application, but you're looking at dozens of castings by trained professionals who know what they're doing. Almost certainly into the hundreds of GP. ~6 diners knocked unconscious by a Shockwave spell from the assassin's wand ~12 diners received minor cuts and abrasions from broken glass mixed in with the water from the shattered aquarium (House Jorasco healing bill) That's quantifiable from the House services prices in the ECS, I think - Cure Light Wounds, probably just Cure minor Wounds for some of them, passed on at cost. The expensive part will be the compensation the restaurant has to pay the customers for the trauma and upset. A couple tables and chairs broken Call it a 2-week job for a skilled carpenter (around 7-8 ranks in Craft (carpentry)) plus decent materials - around 20-50gp. A few dozen expensive dinners ruined At menu cost. Additional charges to clean up all the water and replace table linens and various decorations Call it another 200gp or so for 'sundries'. On the other hand, the free publicity the restaurant is getting could be priceless. Have them set the damages at a punitive level for the PCs, but offer to halve the cost if they'll let themselves be interviewed by the Sharn Inquisitive about the incident, and slip in little comments about how regretful they were at having to trash such tasteful decorations and appetising looking meals in the course of capturing the dangerous criminal, how impressed they are at how quickly the management are restoring the place to full working order, and above all how exciting and thrilling it all was. Played right, the restaurant could double their custom for the next month.
CzarGarrett 05-12-05, 10:03 AM	7500 gp OR influence from organization- Chamber, Aurum, etc.
lukelightning 05-12-05, 10:08 AM	Why are the PC's responsible, and not the assassin? Bill the Assassin's Guild!
Ohtar Turinson 05-12-05, 10:19 AM	Why are the PC's responsible, and not the assassin? Bill the Assassin's Guild! What, Sam Vimes style? I doubt assassins work that way in Sharn. Besides, they didn't need to smash the aquarium... I think 10000 should cover it, unless there was alot of damage on lower floors.
Streamweaver 05-12-05, 10:29 AM	Costs off the top of my head (and why) below: - 10' by 10' by 25' glass aquarium destroyed. ** 150gp for a scroll of Make Whole to fix it. - Most of the (somewhat rare) fish in the aquarium probably dead. ** No idea and there really is no way to come up with it. Aribitrary say 100 gp for the fish. - A few inches of water throughout the wooden floored restaurant ** Honestly this isn't bad at all a couple of guys with mops and maybe presitdigitate. 20gp. ~6 diners knocked unconscious by a Shockwave spell from the assassin's wand. ** This could carry jail time so I'm not sure how cost would effect. I'd levy a town guard penalty of 100gp each. ~12 diners received minor cuts and abrasions from broken glass mixed in with the water from the shattered aquarium (House Jorasco healing bill) ** Say 8gp each for cure light wounds at Jorasco, and include the crime in the 100gp each fine above. -A couple tables and chairs broken A few dozen expensive dinners ruined Additional charges to clean up all the water and replace table linens and various decorations ** Don't see how this would be more than maybe 30 gp total. This is as much a story issue as a legal one really. As a DM you should decide what you want the penalty to reflect. If you want it to be just an issue of the world, something they have to deal with then add up the straight prices above. You can even add a 10-20% increase on top to cover the service fee of doing it all. If you want this to hurt the players then you need to set the fines in a range what will mean something to them. Players with tens of thousands of gold wont care too much about fines like this, but if the city magistrate adds a special fine of an amount that means something to them, they will be more hesitant in the future. You could even go for the pain and say the magistrate requires a magic item instead of gold itself that could cause some concern by the PCs. The real question is, what are you trying to get across to your players here with the results?
lukelightning 05-12-05, 10:32 AM	I would have a problem with paying this if I was a player; it seems like the whole situation was just made to take the PC's money. Why would the PC's be responsible for people getting knocked out by the assassin's attacks? Who broke the fishtank? Was it the assassins shockwave? Also, have the PC's ever been held responsible for property damage in the past or is this a sudden change?
kenichi 05-12-05, 11:07 AM	I kind of like the idea of using the bill as a way of introducing another layer of intrigue with a new patron or ally picking up the tab. Seems very noir to me. Then the PCs could be somewhat indebted to the new NPC and he can allow them to repay him through some minor tasks. Maybe the new patron could even be one of the diners at the restaurant who was impressed by how they handled themselves. Or it could be someone involved with sending the assassin in the first place, maybe they just wanted to blackmail the PCs into doing a job for them, but now they can get them to do it because the PCs owe them. Very cool twisty plot ideas with this scenario. I would imply that the bill would be way too much for the PCs to pay, but don't actually give them a $ figure. Have the bill taken care of before they actually get the total amount. You can use things like the owner lamenting over the rare one of a kind albino ghostfish that he paid over a years earnings on and will never be able to get another (priceless), the PCs wont know if a years earnings is 100 gp, 1000 gp, or more, you just give the impression that it means a lot to the owner beyond a monetary cost and the PCs cannot pay for the damages. Don't let the PCs refuse the payoff, the patron does it before even talking to the PCs, and he won't take no for an answer when the time comes (maybe even months later) for the PCs to help him out. He has connections everywhere and will make life quite difficult if the PCs don't do what he wants.
Just another user 05-12-05, 11:20 AM	It could be noir, but is not pulp, besid do you considered what could happen next time they are in the same situation? "Quick, the assasin enter in that restaurant!" "Well, then we are waiting for him to come out, there is no way I get sticked with another 10000 gold pieces bill for damage like last time. To not mention all the other troubles that come for it. It is just not worth it." :)
Solidcobra 05-12-05, 12:22 PM	Oh, the aquarium: some 150 GP. Fishies: At most 500 GP total. Fairly rare, not "there are 4 of this fish left, they only exist in volcanic seas in xen'driks southern parts" or something. o_O Water on floor: What cost? Just have them mop it up. Furniture: some 100 GP total. Several good dishes: depends on restaurant. Is it a "you reserve a table 3 years in advance" sort, or more of a nice place where mid and high-classers eat? If it's the first...very, very much. If it's the second, some 200 more at most. I may be a bit nice, but really...this "arr! Railroad them! Railroad them straight to hell!" mentality a lot of people have kinda makes me nauseous.
Acceptableloss 05-12-05, 01:40 PM	Costs off the top of my head (and why) below: - 10' by 10' by 25' glass aquarium destroyed. ** 150gp for a scroll of Make Whole to fix it. - Most of the (somewhat rare) fish in the aquarium probably dead. ** No idea and there really is no way to come up with it. Aribitrary say 100 gp for the fish. - A few inches of water throughout the wooden floored restaurant ** Honestly this isn't bad at all a couple of guys with mops and maybe presitdigitate. 20gp. ~6 diners knocked unconscious by a Shockwave spell from the assassin's wand. ** This could carry jail time so I'm not sure how cost would effect. I'd levy a town guard penalty of 100gp each. ~12 diners received minor cuts and abrasions from broken glass mixed in with the water from the shattered aquarium (House Jorasco healing bill) ** Say 8gp each for cure light wounds at Jorasco, and include the crime in the 100gp each fine above. -A couple tables and chairs broken A few dozen expensive dinners ruined Additional charges to clean up all the water and replace table linens and various decorations ** Don't see how this would be more than maybe 30 gp total. Thanks for the feedback guys. MarkB, Streamweaver and Solidcobra: that's exactly the sort of itemized costs I was looking for. It looks like the total monetary costs for the damage will be a bit less than 1000gp. That seems good to me. (Less if it occurs to the artificer to use Make Whole or the like to repair some of the damage himself.) The PCs are level 5 & 6 so that will hurt their wallets a bit, but not send them to the poor house by any means, especially since they just got paid for the previous job they took. As some posters have mentioned, I don't want to penalize them too heavily, because I want to encourage this sort of exciting combat, and I had a lot of fun running this encounter and describing the general mayhem in the restaurant. I don't feel like I need to punish them for getting in a fight in Upper Dura. I think that would just be more likely to ruin their fun, and (as the DM) I basically lured them into the situation in the first place because I liked the idea of a fight occuring in a restaurant. I was just trying to itemize a realistic monetary cost for the damage. Brastan: No the PCs did not fire off any restricted spells inside the restaurant. I don't need to use this situation as a way to introduce a new patron or organization or whatever. The PCs will have to deal with potential fallout from the law, which depending on how they play it may result in additional fines, expulsion from the district, or even imprisonment. The PC artificer is a dragonmarked member of House Cannith, and the paladin works for the Citadel. Also, their last job was a mission for the Brelish Military so unless they do something truly stupid regarding the Sharn Watch they should be able to retain their personal freedom. Thanks for the help guys.
Sithis 05-12-05, 01:56 PM	People smash stuff in action movies because they're one of the following: a) Very well backed and have people that can make such problems go away b) Not concerned about the damages (they're going to leave the scene) There's nothing wrong with making rampaging through the living/eating places of the nobility have a very very stiff price. I would tend to make that price in the form of social/legal trouble rather than just cold hard cash. As someone suggested above, price the repairs to the restaurant fairly (though still somewhat above total cost to account for the trouble) but exact some later toll in the form of a powerful patron or a resident of a lower space demanding reparations. As long as it's not just "you must pay an arbitrarily ridiculous sum" or "someone does you a favor but then demands you work for them" (without the chance to just refuse the favor) then the PCs will view it as the story unfolding rather than the GM punishing them for their actions. PCs are supposed to be special, but their wealth and power is not supposed to allow them to simply do whatever they feel like.
timothyx 05-12-05, 02:28 PM	I would say that you could add a whole level of intrigue here, and when I say, a whole level :schemes:, I mean 120 different threads of :evillaugh: nastiness :evillaugh: that could spawn an entire 15 level campaign. Personally, I'd go the whole route of, the party members each pay 250gp to the Restaurant, and 100gp for each of the patrons of the restaurant who were injured. Maybe a night of jail or something.. maybe a slap on the wrist.
Taigis 05-12-05, 02:56 PM	Don't forget the cost of the damage to the restaurant's business until the repairs are made. Not to mention the people who have been put out by having to change their reservations. Perhaps one of the Dragonmarked houses had the restaurant reserved the next week for an event. How long will it take to make the repairs to get the restaurant up and going at normal levels again? Further what about the damage to the groups reputation. Maybe other restaurant owners won't be too happy to have this group show up on their doorstep. Taigis
KP91 05-12-05, 05:04 PM	I'd personally lay the tag at around a few thousand gold, nearly destorying a person's livelihood is worth at least that much. If nothing else find the most expensive rent you can in S:CoT and then mulitply by 12. Thats like a houndred thousand GP.
Gurv 05-12-05, 07:16 PM	I think it depends on whether the party is found guilty by a magistrate. If they can convince the court that what they did was done for a good reason, then they should only have to pay the minimum: the damage they caused, because as unfair as it might be for them to have to pay for what happened while the defended themselves, it is even more wrong to expect others to pay for it. If they don't convince the magistrate that what they did was done for a good reason, then an additional fine should be added to discourage this kind of thing in the future. All good magistrates know that rich people can pay fines, and if allowed to do so will simply continue to pay them and make everyone lives miserable until they run out. A wise magistrate will charge those he deems to be troublemakers a percentage of what they're worth. That prevents rich people from causing trouble just because they have the money to pay the fines. Determine whether the magistate believes they were protecting themselves or not by using the table on pg 128 of Sharn: CoT. That said, you should really base the punishment on whether you want the PCs to do this again (maybe you do; sounds like a great action scene) or whether you want to drive home that this kind of behavior is inappropriate to Sharn.
Restless 05-12-05, 08:35 PM	Well, IMO, I think the PCs becoming more catious is a good thing. I mean, it's realistic. Think about it, you get in a fight at a 5 star restraunt, there's gonna be alot of red tape and fines. Your gonna be more careful, more jaded. It makes your PC more realistic, and if your creative, creates a ton of roleplaying oppertuities.
Gurv 05-12-05, 08:41 PM	Well, IMO, I think the PCs becoming more catious is a good thing. I mean, it's realistic. Think about it, you get in a fight at a 5 star restraunt, there's gonna be alot of red tape and fines. Your gonna be more careful, more jaded. It makes your PC more realistic, and if your creative, creates a ton of roleplaying oppertuities. That is one way of looking at it. Realistic. But in how many movies have you seen exactly that happen, 5 stars and all, and then have it cut to another scene and move on? It depends on what kind of game the OP wants to run. Realistic is good. So is action-packed. If he needs more plot hooks, then this situation is a good place to get them. But if he already has plenty of plots in mind, then he doesn't need to bog down his game with more, legally mandated, adventures.
Acceptableloss 05-13-05, 12:30 PM	I think it depends on whether the party is found guilty by a magistrate. If they can convince the court that what they did was done for a good reason, then they should only have to pay the minimum: the damage they caused, because as unfair as it might be for them to have to pay for what happened while the defended themselves, it is even more wrong to expect others to pay for it. If they don't convince the magistrate that what they did was done for a good reason, then an additional fine should be added to discourage this kind of thing in the future. I don't think the case is ever going to end up in front of a magistrate, and if it does they shouldn't have too much trouble convincing the magistrate that the fight was for a good reason, mostly because one of the PCs is a Citadel agent. Also, I am inclined to encourage this sort of behavior in my PCs, as long as it doesn't get out of hand, because it was a lot of fun and really made for an exciting, cinematic fight scene. I am a big fan of cinematic fights with interesting terrain/backgrounds and I usually try to introduce as much chaos into the situation as I can. Its also really funny to watch the PC rogue continally insisting that he's not paying for anything, because the assassin caused the damage, but if the paladin wants to pay for the damage out of his own pocket, that's his business. If I feel like using this as a plot hook later on, I could always have the restaurant owner file legal charges after his restaurant has been repaired on the grounds that the PCs hurt his business because the mayhem has hurt his restaurant's reputation with Sharn's elite. Or, as others have pointed out there could be some sort of expensive business beneath the restaurant.
Streamweaver 05-13-05, 03:50 PM	I think all the versions of what could or couldn't happen are basically reasonable here. Many reasonable paths existing though, I'm wondering what it is the DM wants to do here with this event. What are they looking to use it for in the game? Are you trying to show them the world doesnt' like being mucked with, or teach them not to be so wreckless, or what? I think things like this should be driven by how it's going to fit into the story. It could be an interesting twist but it if were to set the players up as adversaries to the rest of the world that may not be what you want. It coudl make them to paranoid to do anything, or it could teach them to be more careful. So what is it you're looking for out of this encounter as DM?
lukelightning 05-13-05, 04:13 PM	Luckily I've had house Sivis and Kundarak insure my china shop. Unfortunately the policy doesn't cover Acts of Gods, so a flame strike or sound burst spell could ruin me!
m15a 05-13-05, 04:16 PM	just because there's a possible plot hook, doesn't mean it has to be taken. moreso, there are lots of possible plot hooks here if they really want them. i think it's good to keep the price reasonable based off those calculations below . . but it would be pretty amusing to have the restaurant owner charge rediculous punitive damages. then the group can decide if they want to pay the guy off to this over with or take the guy to whatever sharn court would deal with this. if you want to have more fun with them, at a later date, have the owner make further charges, citing bills he's been given for leaking on lower floors and such. that way you can have your fun without upsetting the players by penalizing them unfairly just for a hook.