Post/Author/DateTime	Post
loseth 03-13-07, 03:53 AM	Merrix D’Canith is a very naughty boy. The Treaty of Thronehold forbade the creation of new warforged, and yet Merrix goes on running his forge below Sharn. Although he runs the forge at very low capacity, he does sell a few warforged to ‘select clients.’ This got me to thinking about the warforged in my current campaign, in which the PCs are Silln Dhakaani in need of an army, and thus very interested in the warforged, creation forges and Xen’drik construct technology. They’ll eventually find out that a Dhakaani creation forge could not be developed in a single generation, but they might want to try working out a deal with Merrix. So, I’m wondering… A) …how much would warforged have cost during the last war? B) …how much would Merrix sell them for now? C) …if Merrix could be convinced to get his forge back up to full capacity, how many warforged per year could he crank out? Obviously there are no correct answers. But, based on your knowledge of the Ebberon setting, how would you answer these questions?
Bluebrush 03-13-07, 08:34 AM	I'm not sure if it says anywhere that Merrix sells Warforged. Likely he's experimenting with them using his own resources. Anyway, making and selling an army would be incredibly difficult to hide from the authorities.
Cifer 03-13-07, 08:55 AM	Probably the easiest thing to do would indeed be to dismantle the forge and get it to Xen'drik where Thronehold is irrelevant. To answer your questions: A) Forge of War might answer that one. It was proposed on the forums that most WF were not sold against hard currency (which could become decidedly non-hard if the country was losing) but against other things, like rights to ore deposits, land deeds or exclusive contracts. B) Depends on his motivation. If he's into it for the money the prices would be high enough that they would be making a difference for Cannith South itself (Merrix is the Baron - he personally has everything he could wish for). If he isn't, well, it's anybody's guess. C) Depends on what scale the Last War had in your game world. AFAIK, there were never published numbers for the combatants, but one forge should be able to output enough that the IMO relatively few forges made a real difference in the war.
loseth 03-13-07, 09:06 AM	I'm not sure if it says anywhere that Merrix sells Warforged. Likely he's experimenting with them using his own resources. Anyway, making and selling an army would be incredibly difficult to hide from the authorities. It's listed as a rumour in one or two cannon sources (including, IIRC, the ECS) and I've decided that the rumour is true in my campaign.
loseth 03-13-07, 09:14 AM	Probably the easiest thing to do would indeed be to dismantle the forge and get it to Xen'drik where Thronehold is irrelevant. Good idea! The PCs are already quite focussed on building up a Xen'drik base anyway. It hadn't occurred to me that Thronehold need not apply on the continent--so there might even be a legal way to do it! A) Forge of War might answer that one. I'm hoping it does. Can't wait for it to come out!:D C) Depends on what scale the Last War had in your game world. AFAIK, there were never published numbers for the combatants, but one forge should be able to output enough that the IMO relatively few forges made a real difference in the war. Good points. Thanks Cifer. :) Regarding number of combatants, I've been assuming quite high levels of mobilization relative to medieval armies, because of Eberron's advanced magitech--something like 5% of population on average during a 'heavy' phase of the war and much less during lighter phases (assuming that it was something like the IRL 100YW or 30YW, with varying levels of intensity over time).
goblin_pride 03-13-07, 09:45 AM	It hadn't occurred to me that Thronehold need not apply on the continent--so there might even be a legal way to do it! Droaam didn't sign the Thronehold accords so they technically don't apply there as well. Darguun signed them, but the slavery isn't illegal there according to canon so warforged may be owned people there instead of owned property, which again would mean that owning a warforged would be no different than owning a human, gnome, dwarf, elf et al. I'm not 100% certain on the Shadow Marches or the Eldeen Reaches, but the latter would probably shy away from warforged issue altogether or apply the mandate from the Thronehold accords anyway. Just pointing out that Thronehold doesn't apply to all of Khorvaire. If the 5 nations hadn't been so egotistical in their treatment of the de facto governments of some of the new nations of Khorvaire, they might find diplomatic solutions to some of their concerns when dealing with the new nations.
loseth 03-13-07, 09:52 AM	... Darguun signed them, but the slavery isn't illegal there according to canon so warforged may be owned people there instead of owned property, which again would mean that owning a warforged would be no different than owning a human, gnome, dwarf, elf et al. ... Interestingly, the PCs have no intention of purchasing the warforged as slaves. They intend to have them trained and indoctrinated as full Dhakaani warriors, with the same rights, duties and general role as Hobgoblin Dhakaani soldiers.
goblin_pride 03-13-07, 10:24 AM	Interestingly, the PCs have no intention of purchasing the warforged as slaves. They intend to have them trained and indoctrinated as full Dhakaani warriors, with the same rights, duties and general role as Hobgoblin Dhakaani soldiers. I'm not sure how you've dealt with the Dhakaani in your campaign, but in mine a goblinoid is property of the clan that gave him birth until such time as he is sold or becomes a full member of any of the Dhakaani clans. It's a bit odd, but the posts on slavery and the warforged in the No Love thread deal with the idea of Warforged becoming Dhakaani to a degree. Conveniently, in the game I play I'm having a similar thought, due to a warforged PC owned by the clan and placed in my PC's hands as a slave. I would say that if the PCs are Dhakaani goblinoids, have them put the warforged through the same training and indoctrination as any goblinoid would go through to become members of the clan and then you'll have full-fledged Dhakaani warforged, assuming the warforged have the drive to be Dhakaani and can survive the process.
loseth 03-13-07, 10:36 AM	I'm not sure how you've dealt with the Dhakaani in your campaign, but in mine a goblinoid is property of the clan that gave him birth until such time as he is sold or becomes a full member of any of the Dhakaani clans. I treat Dhakaani, in opposition to Ghaal'dar, as being particularly jealous of the right to freedom that all Dhakaani enjoy. They keep slaves, but the slaves are not Dhakaani. The designation 'Dhakaani' is seen as including 'free' as part of its meaning. I like your idea, though. A Turkic-style military slave aristocracy would be interesting, and I might go with it for Ghaal'dar (who aren't very well fleshed out at the moment), but I would probably not want to introduce a free 'full-member' class above that, as I think it takes away a lot of the mystique of a slave aristocracy.
goblin_pride 03-13-07, 10:45 AM	I like your idea, though. A Turkic-style military slave aristocracy would be interesting, and I might go with it for Ghaal'dar (who aren't very well fleshed out at the moment), but I would probably not want to introduce a free 'full-member' class above that, as I think it takes away a lot of the mystique of a slave aristocracy. No love for the Goblins (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=714453) is a thread you should read if you're using the Dhakaani in your campaign. I'm not saying that it'll all be useful, but some of the posts might spark ideas that you hadn't thought of.
ArcTan 03-13-07, 03:43 PM	It's listed as a rumour in one or two cannon sources (including, IIRC, the ECS) and I've decided that the rumour is true in my campaign. The rumor is that he's making them in absolute secrecy, not that he's selling them. If he is selling them, it's on the extreme hush-hush to individual buyers with shady purposes, looking for "special secret project" warforged rather than plain vanilla ones, who will *then* have to keep the existence of their special-secret-project warforged secret or else face the full sanction of the law. The price will probably be extremely variable.
ArcTan 03-13-07, 03:44 PM	Droaam didn't sign the Thronehold accords so they technically don't apply there as well. Darguun signed them, but the slavery isn't illegal there according to canon so warforged may be owned people there instead of owned property, which again would mean that owning a warforged would be no different than owning a human, gnome, dwarf, elf et al. I'm not 100% certain on the Shadow Marches or the Eldeen Reaches, but the latter would probably shy away from warforged issue altogether or apply the mandate from the Thronehold accords anyway. However, the law against Creation Forges and new warforged creation does very much still apply in Darguun, and Darguun in its present state really can't risk taking what may be interpreted to be an act of war against the Five Nations by flagrantly violating Thronehold. They might take warforged prisoners as slaves, but openly buying newly created warforged from Merrix's or the Lord of Blades' forge? No way.
loseth 03-14-07, 07:49 AM	The rumor is that he's making them in absolute secrecy, not that he's selling them. Well... (spoiler follows) I said ‘rumour’ so as not to spoil anything for players who might be reading—but actually in the sidebar on warforged creation in the ECS, it states (as a matter of fact, rather than a rumour) that Merrix builds and sells warforged illicitly.
loseth 03-14-07, 07:49 AM	OK, some prices from cannon sources: 50 warforged repair kit 200 soarwood rowboat 310 alchemy blade 400 1st level spell infusion 250-600 expensive dragonmarked services 500 valenar warhorse 300-800 magebred warhorse 700 leafweave armour 750 masterwork half plate 765 studded impact armour 800 glidewing mount 800 greater Siberys fuel shard 1 290 chain impact armour 1 650 masterwork full plate 2 400 2nd level spell infusion 2 450 darkleaf breastplate 2 450 half-plate impact armour 10 000-15 000 lightning rail cart 12 000 soarwood keelboat 13 000 Cannith goggles 40 000 soarwood ship 92 000 airship Looking at this, I would guess that a warforged, under full production conditions might cost somewhere in the 1500-3000 range? Allowing Merrix to mark the price up for low production and illicit activity, the current price might be ten times that—perhaps 15 000 to 30 000. But if the PCs could convince him to set up a forge on Xen’drik, returning to regular production, the perhaps double the normal price would be in order ? Say, 3000-6000? Any thoughts?
Yakman 03-14-07, 02:12 PM	Droaam didn't sign the Thronehold accords so they technically don't apply there as well. Darguun signed them, but the slavery isn't illegal there according to canon so warforged may be owned people there instead of owned property, which again would mean that owning a warforged would be no different than owning a human, gnome, dwarf, elf et al. I'm not 100% certain on the Shadow Marches or the Eldeen Reaches, but the latter would probably shy away from warforged issue altogether or apply the mandate from the Thronehold accords anyway. Just pointing out that Thronehold doesn't apply to all of Khorvaire. If the 5 nations hadn't been so egotistical in their treatment of the de facto governments of some of the new nations of Khorvaire, they might find diplomatic solutions to some of their concerns when dealing with the new nations. Technically, Droaam remains part of Breland, as Breland has not recognized Droaam's sovreignty. As such, the Treaty is technically in effect there, although it is almost certainly not enforced. Eldeen signed the treaty, so they are covered and bound by its terms (and not interested in giving Aundair a casus belli). i doubt there were in warforged in the shadow marches before the war ended, so the issue is moot there. Darguun signed the Treaty of Thronehold and has to abide by its rules--which means that the Warforged are technically free. While others might not be--Darguun is obviously not basing its legal system on the Code of Galifar, Warforged were specifically liberated in the Treaty, and any (at most there were a handful) that were in Darguun when the treaty came into effect, were granted liberty.
Cifer 03-14-07, 02:57 PM	Darguun signed the Treaty of Thronehold and has to abide by its rules--which means that the Warforged are technically free. While others might not be--Darguun is obviously not basing its legal system on the Code of Galifar, Warforged were specifically liberated in the Treaty, and any (at most there were a handful) that were in Darguun when the treaty came into effect, were granted liberty. Tell that to Karrnathi and Thranish WF. Warforged may no longer be owned as property, but other forms of slavery are still perfectly acceptable.
goblin_pride 03-14-07, 03:21 PM	Tell that to Karrnathi and Thranish WF. Warforged may no longer be owned as property, but other forms of slavery are still perfectly acceptable. Exactly, in Darguun a warforged slave is no different than a human, elf, dwarf or gnome slave, except in the fact they don't need sleep and they eat alot less. Not to mention that in Darguun there's alot of other niceties that are ignored. You think they'll give a rat's hindquarters for whether a warforged is sentient or not? It's a slave you don't have to feed that doesn't drop dead if you work it through the night without rest.
Yakman 03-14-07, 03:58 PM	They have to care. It's part of their obligation under the Treaty. Haruuc (or whatever his name is) wants to play the good citizen for now, and if that means keeping the few dozen warforged in his domains free, then that's what will happen.
Darth Syntax 03-14-07, 04:01 PM	I always assumed Warforged cost was a variation the old pharmaceutical saw. "The first one cost seven-hundred million gold, all the others cost about four"
Cifer 03-14-07, 04:15 PM	@Yakman Again: WF are not free in Thrane. They are not free in Karrnath. I very much doubt anyone will go to Haruuc and tell him "You've got to free your WF" when his obvious reprise will be "Tell that Thrane and Karrnath" - being diplomatic entails not asking questions and demanding things when the answers will put you in an awkward situation. Further, the majority of the nations of Khorvaire are feudal, meaning it's perfectly acceptable to most people that not all enjoy equal rights, just as many will be quite happy that the tin men are still ruled by "real people", even if those are hobgoblins.
Yakman 03-14-07, 04:54 PM	@Yakman Again: WF are not free in Thrane. They are not free in Karrnath. I very much doubt anyone will go to Haruuc and tell him "You've got to free your WF" when his obvious reprise will be "Tell that Thrane and Karrnath" - being diplomatic entails not asking questions and demanding things when the answers will put you in an awkward situation. Further, the majority of the nations of Khorvaire are feudal, meaning it's perfectly acceptable to most people that not all enjoy equal rights, just as many will be quite happy that the tin men are still ruled by "real people", even if those are hobgoblins. WF are debt peons in Thrane and Karrnath. They maintain legal rights as any freedman in their financial situation would have--they are no different from a human who is in a state of eternal indebtedness. This does not mean that they can be bought and sold--it means that they owe someone a lot of money and they are contractually obligated to pay them--albeit at ruinous rates of interest. It is a situation akin to sharecroppers in the post-civil war South--legally free, but practically no better than slaves (unless they bolt for the north). Moreover, it's probably a moot point as I doubt that Haruuc ever had warforged and there's likely no more than a few dozen in the whole country (most of them probably coming in AFTER the Mourning or Treaty of Thronehold anyhow).
goblin_pride 03-14-07, 06:27 PM	They have to care. It's part of their obligation under the Treaty. Haruuc (or whatever his name is) wants to play the good citizen for now, and if that means keeping the few dozen warforged in his domains free, then that's what will happen. Anyone that would complain to Haruuc about not freeing the warforged may well end up in the fields beside them. Haruuc is the king of Darguun and it's his call whether the warforged in Darguun are slaves or not. Even if he tried to play the good, honest king of Darguun, the other members of the Ghaal'dar council may not care what the other nations have to say about their slaves. It's a moot point anyway, half the D'marked houses won't go near Darguun, what is the likelihood that you could get a delegation sent to enforce the Thronehold accords?
Bluebrush 03-14-07, 07:24 PM	Just to add further ideas to the morass: -While an army of tireless slaves is always useful, an army of tireless slaves with lethal combat skills and possible external rebellion instigators is somewhat less useful. (The Mournland and the LOBster is right next door, along with passionately democratic Breland and politically manipulative Zilargo.) The only thing worse than a slave who may run is a slave who can run all day and night and still kick the ass of whoever you send after them. -It's possible that the Darguun Goblinoids may come to respect warforged who are, after all, mostly skilled and loyal warriors. Why enslave them when you can welcome them with open arms and armouries to build up your own warforged army to defend your borders and cement the Lhesh's power? -While it's true that the rest of Khorvaire is too busy polishing their ballistae and eyeing their borders to worry about the violation of sentient rights in Darguun, Haruuc is keen on building power as a politician and agreeing to participate in the freedom of warforged is a point for him with Breland and Aundair. (Thrane may not like it, but they're probably not going to be a fan of Darguun either way.) That said, those are mainly points for Haruuc's government. The other factions and lesser tribes are not under his control or subject to his philosophy. If you can convince a six foot tall metal and stone killing machine to pick crops and build pyramids instead of snapping his chains and walking off then more power to you.
goblin_pride 03-14-07, 07:52 PM	-While it's true that the rest of Khorvaire is too busy polishing their ballistae and eyeing their borders to worry about the violation of sentient rights in Darguun, Haruuc is keen on building power as a politician and agreeing to participate in the freedom of warforged is a point for him with Breland and Aundair. (Thrane may not like it, but they're probably not going to be a fan of Darguun either way.) That "Bloody Blade" that Haruuc uses as a surname has quite a bit of Brelish and Aundairan blood on it as well. I can't imagine he'd get a warm welcome from anyone in the five nations with the possible exception of the Lord of Blades, honestly. My point was simply that just because he signed the Accords doesn't mean he actively enforces their edicts in his own domain. Darguun is a bit wilder than the other nations and sometimes the niceties of Galifaran law aren't respected the same there. The only D'marked house that really operates there with any regularity is Orien, the others appear not to want to make coins badly enough to risk spending any time in the Goblinoid kingdom. I also couldn't find mention in the books of ambassadors to Darguun, but there were a few references of ambassadors from Darguun.
Bluebrush 03-14-07, 08:13 PM	That "Bloody Blade" that Haruuc uses as a surname has quite a bit of Brelish and Aundairan blood on it as well.True, but the other Galifarian nations have been hacking at each other for even longer. And Aundair probably wasn't as involved in fighting Darguun as Breland and Cyre, except perhaps in their capacity as mercenaries for House Denieth. In fact, I think I remember that Breland made an agreement to support their indepence to give Cyre more hassle. I think thats in the ECS somewhere. I can't imagine he'd get a warm welcome from anyone in the five nations with the possible exception of the Lord of Blades, honestly.Perhaps not so much a desire for a warm welcome as a desire to be seen as a reasonable enough ruler willing to respect Thronehold. Making the nation less objectionable and therefore less likely to be invaded if Breland is able to relax their other fronts. My point was simply that just because he signed the Accords doesn't mean he actively enforces their edicts in his own domain. Darguun is a bit wilder than the other nations and sometimes the niceties of Galifaran law aren't respected the same there.And my suggestion was there to provide a good justification if you want to go the other route.I also couldn't find mention in the books of ambassadors to Darguun, but there were a few references of ambassadors from Darguun.Diplomacy isn't entirely the work of ambassadors. While diplomats talk the talk, sometimes a ruler must walk the walk.
Dragom 03-14-07, 08:27 PM	While diplomats talk the talk, sometimes a ruler must walk the walk. An annoying but true statement. Although a lot of the time you can get by with just miming the walk.
cancerousmango 03-14-07, 09:12 PM	An annoying but true statement. Although a lot of the time you can get by with just miming the walk.What's the difference between miming a walk and walking a walk unless you stand in place to mime the walk?
goblin_pride 03-14-07, 09:12 PM	What's the difference between miming a walk and walking a walk unless you stand in place to mime the walk? Dude, a mime is a wonderful thing to waste.
Dragom 03-14-07, 09:30 PM	Lets use a real world example of governments miming the walk. Mexico was severely over drawn on loans to develope it's oil researve. Turns out it barely had any and now had a massive dept to pay back. But it couldn't pay. So it was loaned money to pay it's depts. This was infact Britain handing Mexico a hundred thousand dollars every few months and Mexico handing the same money back. This looks like Mexico paying off the loan. It isn't.
cancerousmango 03-14-07, 10:46 PM	Dude, a mime is a wonderful thing to waste.Men in tights.
Splendide 03-14-07, 11:48 PM	The only D'marked house that really operates there with any regularity is Orien, the others appear not to want to make coins badly enough to risk spending any time in the Goblinoid kingdom.Either that or they are happy to spend coins there, and do so through shells. If the Dragonmarked houses have an official presence, then they must most certainly follow Galifar law, even if no-one else is. If their presence is unofficial and second hand, then the agency making money for them there need only be as legal as everyone else is.
goblin_pride 03-15-07, 01:00 AM	If the Dragonmarked houses have an official presence, then they must most certainly follow Galifar law, even if no-one else is. If their presence is unofficial and second hand, then the agency making money for them there need only be as legal as everyone else is. I completely forgot about the Deneith presence in Darguun. Which is really surprising, considering my character in the game I play tends to call the Ghaal'dar "Deneith *****s" pretty much any time he meets one.