Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Munz 10-26-05, 10:15 AM	I'm running an Eberron Campaign and I have 3-4 very experienced players at times. I've allowed playable characters and feats and spells and Prestige classes from all 3.5 material available. Since my players like to be powerplayers and at times metagame, I've been considering wether or not it might be more appropriate to narrow down my criteria of options to only include material for players from PHB, (all) Eberron sourcebooks, and the occasional thing from Dragon magazines. Do any of you think this would be limiting the players too much? It just seems the players are taking too many things from Forgotten Realms material (Regional Feats) and too little in the way of Ebberon stuff. Any thoughts?
Grymar 10-26-05, 10:21 AM	I had my players start at 1st level using just PHB + ECS. Since then I've rolled in RoE and the Complete series of books. I'll never allow Realms material and probably not any Dragon mag stuff. We already have to sit around while the artificer sifts through too many spells now, the last thing I want to do is give him a larger selection.
lugnut71 10-26-05, 10:27 AM	I generally don't allow relms stuff and stuff I don't own. Still none of my players are hard core about being killing machines. (While at least they are not good at being killing machines.)
MikeyP 10-26-05, 11:10 AM	IMC, I'm allowing the Complete series, Core, and all Eberron material. I'm specifically excluding FR material with the exception of a FEW spells here and there, found mostly as treasure in spellbooks or on a scroll, or taught as a gift from an individual from an "exotic" (non-Khorvaire) culture. Other things, such as feats, magic items (for the artificer) and prestige classes, are on a case-by-case basis. It seems to be working okay for now, but I'm starting to rue some of my decisions already. We'll see what happens though, I'm fairly sure I can make it work.
Ineti 10-26-05, 11:46 AM	I'm keeping it simple for my campaign. PHB, ECS, and the other Eberron books. Nothing else.
makeshiftwings 10-26-05, 12:13 PM	If your players are former FR players, I think the game would benefit from disallowing Forgotten Realms stuff and strongly encouraging new Eberron stuff. Eberron has a very different feel to it, and if your players are still trying to make FR-styled combat-focused high level powerhouses, they will be missing out on some of what makes Eberron different. Maybe having a dragonmark or being a Changeling isn't as "optimal" as being an Aasimar Champion of Torm with bought off level adjustment, Spellfire, and FR specific feats, but it will give the game a more Eberron feel. Of course, there is a lot of stuff from FR that can be converted to Eberron, but the real question is whether that's really going to make the game more interesting. I know if I had a player who claimed to want to play Eberron, and then said "I want to be a Fey'ri Chosen of Bane who works for the Zhentarim. Convert that to Eberron for me. Thanks." ...I wouldn't be jumping at the opportunity.
Gurv 10-26-05, 12:23 PM	I allow whatever sourcebooks I have regular access to. I reserve the right to disallow things however, and I have. Just have your players run anything they want to use by you, and decide case by case.
The White Sorcerer 10-26-05, 12:30 PM	I allow core, Eberron (including RoE) and any book with an Eberron Expanded article written about it. Individual prestige classes and such from other sources are also possible, with my approval.
Jancarius 10-26-05, 12:38 PM	I allow the Completes, Core, and anything from the Eberron sourcebooks (not RoE). Specific FR feats and PrCs may be allowed or revoked at any time with no advance notice or warning subject to DM approval
Medesha 10-26-05, 12:55 PM	I allow anything as long as the player's willing to adapt it to Eberron. Right now one of my PCs is playing an Auspician (FR prestige class) tweaked to be a class devoted to Olladra.
Thwyvylyn 10-26-05, 01:22 PM	I allow Core, XPH, The Races and the Complete Books plus the Eberron Books. Also the Environmental (Frostburn...), Creature (Lords of Madness...), and Themes (Heroes of Horror, Heroes of Battle...) books are allowed. If it's not in one of those I won't allow it. I hate the Forgotten Realms with a passion so anyone who tries to pull a fast one on me and slip something in there, will be asked to leave and not come back. Also I require all of my players to extensively fleshout their characters so that helps with powergaming as well as all characters must be approved by me before they can be used. On a side note, I generally discourage Exalted Deeds and Vile Darkness as I believe adventurers (especially in Eberron) are not the paragon embodiments of their alignment or its cause.
Munz 10-26-05, 01:33 PM	It appears I would be accurate in my assumption that allowing too much is taking away from the game. I've heard some great comments leading to what others allow their own players to use, and I think I will rethink what I allow my own players to use in the future. Thanks all.
DarkWarriorKarg 10-26-05, 01:37 PM	Meh. I'll use anything... I don't hate any of the other backgrounds, so I'm not allergic to many things. Just give me a good background for the specialties you're looking for. If I like it, no problem. If I don't, no. Heck, I'm more worried about the Eberron-specific stuff (Like Power Link...)
Damien_Hiro 10-26-05, 02:47 PM	I am about to start a new campaign in Eberron and I have only allowed the following book; Core, Monsterous Manual III, XPH and ECS. I am still on the fence about the Lords of Madness and Heroes of Horror. Having coming from a Forgotten Realm campaign with all of those sourcebooks and the complete series, I had enough. I am going to take a break form the realms and play a smaller more controlled campaign.
xxxsammaelxxx 10-26-05, 03:17 PM	Our List - The big 3 of course Complete Series ECS - Sharn, Explorers, Five N, Magic Of Races of Stone & Eberron (because we have them) We Dont use Psionics, never have. Im not slagging Psionics, the whole group just doesnt feel the need to add an alternate system. We Have BoVD and BoED and Savage Species. But don't use/allow them. We have found way too many gamebreaking problems with anything 3.0, even after applying official 3.5 updates, So we find it easier to just blanket outlaw anything that isnt 3.5 from the start. we dont use the miniatures handbook. Mostly because anything good was reprinted in complete. And if it wasn't, there was probably a good reason why it wasn't. And my campaign is 100% Eberron, FR sourcebooks don't exist Generally, if its 3.5, Official WoTC and either generic or Eberron, Its good to go. As a DM, If a player buys a book, I try to let him use something from it as soon as possible (as it helps encourage the purchase of more books :cool: ) As for heroes or libre mortis, They would be allowed I imagine, we just dont have them yet.
Brastan 10-26-05, 03:31 PM	With the release of MoE that completes the first round of Eberron supplements in my mind. Combined with RoE players now have a good array of Eberron options to pick from and should be encouraged to look at those over material for FR or even some of the generic supplements. As of my current Campaign I have allowed material from the Completes, XPH, MM3 and a Dragon Magazine. However this one started before MoE was released and the concept was pitched before the Explorers Handbook. My next adventure set will be utilizing both books more. To me round one of Eberron expansion was Sharn:CoT, 5N, Explorers Handbook, and MoE; plus RoE to encouraged the use of the new races.
Zelin 10-26-05, 03:33 PM	It appears I would be accurate in my assumption that allowing too much is taking away from the game. I've heard some great comments leading to what others allow their own players to use, and I think I will rethink what I allow my own players to use in the future. Thanks all. I'm having a hard time understanding what exactly the issue is. When you look all the material that’s out there Eberron is only a small part of that whole. If you allow everything then I'd expect that Eberron specific prcs, feats, and spells would only make a small part of a player's repertoire. (Not to mention that the players are probably more familar with the other material.) As source books are large monetary investment I wouldn't simply cut everything. Consider just cutting the non-generic prcs and feats. For instance you might consider cutting out the regional feats as those regions don't exist in Eberron. On the other hand there are generic PrCs that fit right in. While you won't see any Martyred Champions of Ilmater in my campaigns you might just see an Orc Warlord. Regardless I would still argue against cutting the Complete series there's a lot of good material in them even if they're not specific to Eberron.
Munz 10-26-05, 04:05 PM	The main issue is that I really don't feel I'm giving my players the whole Eberron experience when they are choosing from so many other sources. I of course would allow MOST of the material from the 'Complete' series. I say most because some prestige classes just don't fit. I mean, think of that Purple Knight prestige class offered in the Complete Warrior (or was it Divine?). PLUS I have players playing Classes and PRCs that I'm not that familiar with. And as it has completely nothing to do with Eberron, I feel that too takes away from the feel that the Eberron game has to offer. Unfortunately, I feel that my attempt at introducing Eberron within my group of players has turned into one great big Homebrew Melting Pot of campaign environments. So, ultimately I'm looking to turn around this feel and wonder if by offering mostly only stuff from core, complete, and Eberron Sourcebooks would do the trick.
garner_adam 10-26-05, 05:25 PM	Always consider the material carefully before you get it. I find that lots of the source books are redundant or specifically for the attempt to increase power gaming. I run the core books, Eberron books, and Heroes of Battle. This narrows down the options to a more Eberron looking feel. I chose Heroes of Battle because it really is a must have for Eberron! With a 100 year war you can be sure that the information from this book will help you out. My advice- Use only as many books as you feel are nessecary and then "trim the fat".
aelryinth 10-26-05, 05:48 PM	On a side note, I generally discourage Exalted Deeds and Vile Darkness as I believe adventurers (especially in Eberron) are not the paragon embodiments of their alignment or its cause. So the fact that there's a Saint sitting in downtown Sharn means you got rid of her, too? ;) heh, just a thought. ==Aelryinth
Solarious 10-26-05, 05:54 PM	Well, a lot of the material in FR doesn't fit all that well into Eberron, some of them for obvious reasons (such as gods walking the land, a big point), some less so (drow aren't underdark matriarchs - for the most part, gnomes are vicious compeditors). Also because some of the material is broken, but that's my bigotry speaking, so ignore that last part. Most of the Complete material is good, but some may require a little adjustment. For example, the Darkwood Stalker (Complete Warrior) is going have to be adjusted for something like hunting down Dragons (because there is a sect of the Tariendal [sp] that wants to wipe them out still on Arenal), or eliminated entirely. Or your example of the Knight of the Purple Dragon, which can easily be turned into a Rekenmark [again, sp] focused PrC (Karrnath institution famous for turning out the finest military commanders in Galifar). The Cavalier and the Order of the Bow Initiate (again, CW) are excellent examples of Thranish PrC, emphizing their focus on cavlery and archery. Radiant Servant of Pelor (Complete Divine) can easily be touched up into the Radiant Servent of the Soverigns, Mindspy is a Cabinet of Faces PrC, Occult Slayer is a Ashbound tradition, Mage of the Arcane Order (CA) are Arcanix/The Twelve oriented, Alienist is Xoriat-touched, Dread Pirate (CV) is Larazzar pirates, Spymaster, Virtuoso, and the Nightsong PrCs linked to the Shadow-Dragonmarked houses, and so on, and so forth. *gags self* It is really up to you though. There is precious little Eberron crunch, but you don't neccessarily have to feel forced to resrict other books to make Eberron feel distinct, because Eberron is designed to be able to incorperate many different types of campaigns and materials. Do whatever feels right to you and your players - not what others think is right. This is all for the enjoyment of your players and yourself, not for the unpleasable entity known as the Internet Public. Besides, this isn't the Realms, where Epic characters stalk the land and change the geography (and cosmology) every other year, the players can afford to cut some slack on the combative uberness. :P So the fact that there's a Saint sitting in downtown Sharn means you got rid of her, too? ;) She was originally designed as a Paladin by Hellcow to emphisize her Holiness. The developers decided that the Book of Exalted Deeds needed some lovin'. ;)
JohnnyONeal 10-26-05, 06:00 PM	The main issue is that I really don't feel I'm giving my players the whole Eberron experience when they are choosing from so many other sources. I of course would allow MOST of the material from the 'Complete' series. I say most because some prestige classes just don't fit. I mean, think of that Purple Knight prestige class offered in the Complete Warrior (or was it Divine?). PLUS I have players playing Classes and PRCs that I'm not that familiar with. And as it has completely nothing to do with Eberron, I feel that too takes away from the feel that the Eberron game has to offer.I think you're right on the mark here. Here's a little more advice to flesh out what other folks have already said: Next time you're starting a campaign, ask your players to pitch character concepts before they start building characters. Ask for a couple of paragraphs or a verbal description that describes the PC's background -- and the path they'd like to take -- without using D&D terminology. In an ideal world, you could let your players go nuts and veto their ideas in only when necessary. But if they're picking regional feats from an entirely different setting, you've got to rein them in! Issue a blanket ban on all Forgotten Realms (or Dragonlance) material for now. Some of it fits, but most is built for a slightly higher power level than Greyhawk or Eberron. Here are my usual guidelines: General sources allowed: Core (3.5), the Expanded Psionics Handbook, the Eberron Campaign Setting Book, Sharn: City of Towers, Races of Eberron, the Five Nations, and Magic of Eberron. Other sources (subject to approval): the Complete series, the non-Eberron Races books, Savage Species, Frostburn, Sandstorm, Stormwrack, and the Planar Handbook. Classes allowed: Core (3.5), artificer, favored soul, ninja (goblins and elves only), psion, psychic warrior, scout, soulknife, swashbuckler, warlock, wilder. Races allowed: Core (3.5), changeling, goblin, kalashtar, orc, shifter, warforged, warforged scout, daelkyr half-blood. I allow all feats from the Complete series, the classes noted, and most of the prestige classes. (I've written up some of my ideas for using prestige classes from the first three Complete books (http://www.coveworld.net/eberron/conversions.html) on the Eberron Journal. I stopped once Keith started writing the Eberron Expanded articles.) I put a few restrictions on psioncs, also detailed on the Eberron Journal (http://www.coveworld.net/eberron/psionics-in-eb.html). Good luck!
Thwyvylyn 10-26-05, 06:14 PM	I said Adventurers. NPCs are held to higher (or lower) standard.
DoveArrow 10-26-05, 11:13 PM	I agree with everyone here about trying to cut the umbilical chord to Forgotten Realms. One person in my group, who was having trouble trying to pick a god, uttered the sentence, "Maybe I could be the first person in Eberron to worship a Forgotten Realms god." My response was "ABSOLUTELY NOT!" Now don't get me wrong. I think Forgotten Realms is a fine Campaign Setting. In fact, I still enjoy the games we play in the Realms, and even have some plans for my own campaigns there. However, I don't think that most of Forgotten Realms has a place in Eberron. There might be a few things that I'd allow if I thought my players wouldn't cling to the setting like a security blanket, but because I've seen them do it one too many times, I've disallowed anything from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting.
Jancarius 10-27-05, 12:53 AM	Classes allowed: Core (3.5), artificer, favored soul, ninja (goblins and elves only), psion, psychic warrior, scout, soulknife, swashbuckler, warlock, wilder. Good luck!Why not Warmage? It seems perfect for the post 100 year war enviroment.
Setherial 10-27-05, 03:21 AM	The default in my games is only Players Handbook + ECS. All new characters entering the game are only allowed to take mundane weapons (masterwork is allowed but no special materials or magic). This allows the DM (whether I DM or one of the others in the group) to manage what each player gets and it makes starting over way less appealing. All feats/skills and other stuff a player likes to take fom other sources are discussed first with the DM until both agree. Prestige classes are a thing you aquire in game. You tell the DM which class you'd be interested in and he makes it possible for you to earn it in game, create an event linked to that class. we've been doing this for over a year now and our games have become more fun, less extreme in terms of powerplay and more balanced where everyone feels good about his character.
Splendide 10-27-05, 04:57 AM	I think it depends on what they're taking from other books. If its thematic stuff specific to that setting, then don't allow it. If its just crunch that fits into Eberron well (like some of the regional feats in FR, like knife fighting or what have you), then let them take them if they're not cheesy.
a_psh 10-27-05, 07:55 AM	So the fact that there's a Saint sitting in downtown Sharn means you got rid of her, too? ;) I did. There's no reason she shouldn't just be a commoner or expert. Why is it vital that a mystic who sits on a big wooden pillar and talks to people all day have a page-long statblock or auras, weirdly-typed AC bonuses, and all sorts of other special abilities? Indeed, I thought giving her tons of supernatural powers greatly undermined the character's role (not to mention wasting a whole page of the book on a statblock for a noncombatant whose relevant abilities could easily be described in two or three lines).
a_psh 10-27-05, 07:58 AM	I say most because some prestige classes just don't fit. I mean, think of that Purple Knight prestige class offered in the Complete Warrior (or was it Divine?). Actually, the Purple Dragon Knight is easily adapted to almost any setting. Change the name and you get a great commander class, particularly for armies emphasizing fearless discipline. Hellcow suggested it as a good fit for Karrn commanders.
Thrasher 10-27-05, 09:39 AM	We do not use FR in any of our campains. My players hate FR anyways cause we had one guy in a group a while back that that is all he talked about and even then he got alot of it wrong. Our last D&D game I felt like being funny so the chars met up with a Drizzt like character to help them with a quest. He died roughly five minutes later and the party continued on with the quest. :) FR=hate in my group.
Salla 10-27-05, 10:23 AM	I'm running an Eberron Campaign and I have 3-4 very experienced players at times. I've allowed playable characters and feats and spells and Prestige classes from all 3.5 material available. Since my players like to be powerplayers and at times metagame, I've been considering wether or not it might be more appropriate to narrow down my criteria of options to only include material for players from PHB, (all) Eberron sourcebooks, and the occasional thing from Dragon magazines. Do any of you think this would be limiting the players too much? It just seems the players are taking too many things from Forgotten Realms material (Regional Feats) and too little in the way of Ebberon stuff. Any thoughts? I don't use anything from the realms, but I use the vast majority of the Races series (I don't own Races of Stone), the Completes, the XPH, OA, and some Dragons (I made a text file with the articles I'm using and a basic summary to help find what we need). Importing classes is easy; classes are something anybody can learn if they want to (with the exception of the Sorcerer and Warlock, and the Warlock is easy enough to justify with ancient pacts or other stuff from the Age of Demons). Races sometimes take a bit of manipulation to fit into place (I made the Illumians from Races of Destiny closely related to the Dragonmark of Scribing), but a little imagination takes care of that. Prestige classes that don't have attached organizations are simple as well; it's just something people can learn. For organizational classes (see: Daggerspell Guardians, Shadowbanes, etc), you have to find a place for those organizations, or adapt and rename those classes to existing organizations. Just pick out the ones you don't like, and you're good.
Orion Polaris 10-27-05, 02:04 PM	-ECS, 5N, ExH. Maybe MOE if I get it, though I've been hearing things about some of it's unbalanced psionic items that I'm not enjoying. - Material from Races Of Stone, Races Of Destiny, Races Of The Wild, Races Of Eberron. I don't allow any of the races with above a +1 level adjustment. Illumians are heavily altered. -Complete Arcane, Complete Warrior, Complete Divine, Complete Adventurer. -Expanded Psionics Handbook -Core 3. -Material from other sources(Dragon, Creature series, etc.), but I get the final say if they are acceptable or not. Although my PC's now that anything is subject to be adapted to an Eberron campaign.
LuciferNietzsche 10-27-05, 10:10 PM	I hate FR...hate it, hate it, hate it. I played in it only a few times and the excessive power level bored me to tears. I started yawning just reading the books because it was like using a sledgehammer for microsurgery. Now, that said...I don't begrudge anyone who enjoys it or wants to use it. I do however think it's a wholly bad idea to allow anything from FR into Eberron, or at the very least without DM approval. FR is a high-powered setting...Greyhawk is a medium-powered setting...and Eberron is supposed to be lower-powered. Mixing either into Greyhawk is ok, and obviously Greyhawk is the basis for each, but mixing FR with Eberron either way is probably just a horrendously bad idea. And what's this about only goblins and elves being allowed to take ninja? C'mon, humans have GOT to be able to be ninjas... Aside from banning all FR books, most other things should be considered on a case-by-case basis like others have said. I like the idea of players having to present a background and ideas to the DM before character creation, without using game mechanic terms. That alone should severely restrict excessive powergaming. One should never be afraid to tweak something to fit Eberron, provided it's mechanics aren't going to break the world or fit into the fluff of the setting. That's really all I've got to say on it, so good luck trimming your adventure. I hope it works out fine, you sound like a responsible, considerate DM.
6FootGnome 10-28-05, 07:40 PM	[QUOTE=makeshiftwings]Maybe having a dragonmark or being a Changeling isn't as "optimal" as being an Aasimar Champion of Torm with bought off level adjustment, Spellfire, and FR specific feats, QUOTE] Sorry I have to say, how is the player allowed to buy off a level adjustment? Are their officla rules for it? Anyway, ban anything directly tied to the forgotten realms and judge anything else on a case by case basis
6FootGnome 10-28-05, 07:43 PM	Oh, and one of the few things I would allow is the purple dragon knight. But I'd change the fluff to Karnith (I could so picture a Karnith vetrean with those skills)
makeshiftwings 10-28-05, 09:22 PM	Sorry I have to say, how is the player allowed to buy off a level adjustment? Are their officla rules for it? Anyway, ban anything directly tied to the forgotten realms and judge anything else on a case by case basis There are rules for it in Unearthed Arcana. It's not strictly an FR thing, but since so many core races of FR have LA, and none of the Eberron ones do, I think it probably comes up more in FR. In fact, I think the whole system more or less came from people saying "But my drow should be as good a wizard as a human, if not better!", which is true lorewise, but not really balanced.