How subtle are the Dreaming Dark? [Archive] - Wizards Community

How subtle are the Dreaming Dark? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Charles Phipps
03-09-06, 03:51 PM This seems to be a point of contention here in the storyline and it occurs to me that there's a number of ways to portray the organization. The best example we have of the DD in action is in Mr. Baker's Trilogy about them. However, there's a number of schools of thought about them and its important that we share each other's versions of it. Here's my version.

The biggest influence to my version of the Dreaming Dark is Wolfram and Hart from Angel. The Senior Partners to me represent a good idea about how you deal with essentially a group of individuals that are utterly immaterial in the physical world but have to interact through intermediaries. The Quori themselves are vile, vile, vile, reprehensible people themselves but their goals aren't based on causally causing the suffering of others but instead gaining and furthering their influence across Khovaire.

Two things I further try to instill in my depictions of them is 1: They are very subtle. and 2: They are not THAT subtle. The Dreaming Dark is ultimately impotent in comparison to the Lords of Dust or Dragons whom possess incredible personal power. Their entire agenda depends on essentially emasculating the people under their control of anything resembling power and original thought. They're aware that furthermore their position is a tenuous one. They have conquered Reidra to their liking but gods have been overthrown before and entire cultures have changed in an eyeblink.

The Dreaming Dark thus treads extremely softly in Khovaire because even if they are immortal, their whole plan essentially is about trying to take away human free will and its a house of cards that could easily fall to pieces even were tomorrow they able to once more manifest physically in reality. They are building a house of cards that could easily fall apart should it draw the attention of elder forces or even spread new religion or magical ways of thinking in their controlled environment.

The Dreaming Dark's need for control means that while they can employ forces like the Emerald Claw and Aurrum for their efforts, they have to keep a closer involvement than they might like because human free will is a tenacious thing and even the least change in their plans means a potential for disaster. While a "Great War" may work in broad strokes, its not like they were able to control evert battle in it. This involvement means that their plans are directly thwartable.

I also tend to think that the DD sadly furthermore needs a good number of independent minded people who don't worship them in addition to their host bodies despite what they think, they can't be everywhere and the number of Inspired just doesn't equal their tasks. It's the ironic curse of their existence.
igotsmeakabob!!
03-09-06, 04:59 PM So subtle its impossible to write anything for them.

Hehe.

If an organization has enough time (like for the rest of eternity), they can be so subtle that its unlikely that anyone but other organizations with that sort of time will identify what they are trying to do.
Charles Phipps
03-09-06, 05:29 PM So subtle its impossible to write anything for them.

Hehe.

If an organization has enough time (like for the rest of eternity), they can be so subtle that its unlikely that anyone but other organizations with that sort of time will identify what they are trying to do.

To me, that actually makes them insignificant. They make no impact on history if their threads woven are so utterly unnoticible that they mean nothing in the grand scheme of things.

Also, it devalues them as villains. I'm very much a "Specter"/Power Broker type of Dreaming Dark honestly.

It's fun to say "So utterly unnoticble that they cannot be described" but at heart, the PCs are more important than the villains and anything they cannot face is something that shouldn't exist.
DBlizzard
03-09-06, 05:46 PM To me, that actually makes them insignificant. They make no impact on history if their threads woven are so utterly unnoticible that they mean nothing in the grand scheme of things.Not too long ago, there was a thread on ENWorld that was something like "Eberron fans name 3 things you don't like about Eberron." One of my things was the fact that the Lords of Dust and Dreaming Dark are supposedly so subtle that players won't ever know they are facing them.

Keith replied that, in his view, the Dreaming Dark are the villains that are behind the plot the PCs are involved with. You don't deal with the DD until a long, long time "peeling the onion" of plots and subplots. However, eventually you will discover them.
Rechan
03-09-06, 07:24 PM Keith replied that, in his view, the Dreaming Dark are the villains that are behind the plot the PCs are involved with. You don't deal with the DD until a long, long time "peeling the onion" of plots and subplots. However, eventually you will discover them.

Some of us aren't too good at writing those kinds of adventures, though. Some sample "adventure seeds" or plot outlines with the DD would be nice.

To me though, the LoD are subtle, yes, but they are doing grand things. Like, trying to crash one of the moons into Eberron, causing an enormous earthquake by making the shard containing a Rajah unearth from the ground. Trying to Wake Up Khyber himself. Earth shattering things. They couldn't care less about the modern races, except that they are distractions. Sure, they may be patient enough to wait for the stars to align for just the right moment, but when they Do make their move, it's gunna be Big.

As a side note, the Quori don't have eternity. The idea is that Dal Quor works on a cycle. Dreams. Nightmares. Dreams. Nightmares. This is "The Wheel" that the Kalasthar are working to turn. Currently, we're on Nightmare, and as soon as it rolls back over to Dreams, the Quori are no longer evil nasties. More the reason why they want to invade Eberron soon.
SonofKhyber
03-09-06, 07:52 PM What I have found is that if you just forget all about the Dreaming Dark ( or the Lords of Dust, etc.) as the main villains and just run your game as you would normally, then at some point later on, you can ( at your leisure and at a time of your choosing ) tie all those little plots together and have the Dreaming Dark or the Lords of Dust show up as the masters behind the scenes. You don't have to worry about your PCs not falling for the hook or that they will uncover the manipulators that are pulling the strings. You eliminate the stress of trying to tell your story and constantly asking yourself " How is the Dreaming Dark tied to all this ?" or " Why is the Dreaming Dark doing this?"
It has made my Eberron campaign run a little more smoothly.
Charles Phipps
03-09-06, 08:00 PM The way I use the Dreaming Dark to keep subtley is several ways...

1. Cutaways

I know some people don't like this because it spoils the mystery but I often 'flash to' a scene where the agents of the Dreaming Dark talk in a vague sense about their evil plan afootTM.

2. A Recurring DD

One character I always had show up was based on Fallen's Azazel. Basically, this guy would randomly possess people around the PC's and often taunt them that he was involved in deep whatever horror they were facing and then walk away when done.

For extrapoints, he hummed "Time is on my side'
Rechan
03-09-06, 10:25 PM 2. A Recurring DD

One character I always had show up was based on Fallen's Azazel. Basically, this guy would randomly possess people around the PC's and often taunt them that he was involved in deep whatever horror they were facing and then walk away when done.

For extrapoints, he hummed "Time is on my side'

I really wish there was a PrC or a Power or something that reflected that ability. Fallen was a good movie (albeit it's near-impossible to kill that guy).
Charles Phipps
03-09-06, 10:48 PM I really wish there was a PrC or a Power or something that reflected that ability. Fallen was a good movie (albeit it's near-impossible to kill that guy).

Well there's always Magic Jar. ;-)

Plus, the Dreaming Dark DO possess people all the time.

3. The Loyal minions in direct contact

For the Wolfram and Hart like feel at its most, I had a legal firm in Sharn that was run by the Inspired as they handled the affairs of the Aurrum, mobsters, and plenty of other people that they served as an intermediary for. The great irony was that they often passed along missions and hired things from their own dime but no one expected such obvious crimminals were orchestrating their own scheme.

They were thus visible and yet also hidden and isolated from the law.
Rechan
03-09-06, 11:09 PM 3. The Loyal minions in direct contact

For the Wolfram and Hart like feel at its most, I had a legal firm in Sharn that was run by the Inspired as they handled the affairs of the Aurrum, mobsters, and plenty of other people that they served as an intermediary for. The great irony was that they often passed along missions and hired things from their own dime but no one expected such obvious crimminals were orchestrating their own scheme.

I really like this one. But who is it that are passing along missions and hired things from their own dime? The clients, or the DD? The clients were doing things that were generally "out of their field", i.e. Daask enforcers being bodyguards for high-profile criminals doing DD operations?
Belabras
03-09-06, 11:42 PM As a side note, the Quori don't have eternity. The idea is that Dal Quor works on a cycle. Dreams. Nightmares. Dreams. Nightmares. This is "The Wheel" that the Kalasthar are working to turn. Currently, we're on Nightmare, and as soon as it rolls back over to Dreams, the Quori are no longer evil nasties. More the reason why they want to invade Eberron soon.

True, but the Quori get something like 4 times the amount of time passed on the prime/Eberron plane to plot and scheme. It must seem like things are moving in slow motion to them when they posses the Inspired.
Charles Phipps
03-10-06, 07:18 AM I really like this one. But who is it that are passing along missions and hired things from their own dime? The clients, or the DD? The clients were doing things that were generally "out of their field", i.e. Daask enforcers being bodyguards for high-profile criminals doing DD operations?

In general, the issue is that everyone needs money and also information to continue performing their activities. The Dreaming Dark Law FirmTM would provide their clients with a valuable service under the pretext of recieving a fee.

Emerald Claw need to know about Karrnathian diplomat needing to be killed? Fine, here's a wonderfully high profile target.
Here's a perfectly good one.
Set up the Aurrum member to have a wonderful alibi and thus bring even more of a Dragonmark house under the control of a united group (and the Illuminati serves Reidra's plans very well)? Why not.

In addition greasing the wheel of evil, they provide 'ideas' that help things run along even as most dismiss them as a corrupt law firm and crimminal organization when its actually weaving dozens of strings and putting their hands in hundreds of pies to weaken Khovaire morally and economically while also giving them titanic influence and information for the day they will take it over (perhaps by 'saving' it).

The DD is doing all of this directly but their genius is the fact that the players are unlikely (but not impossible) to realize the middle men in the mission are the masterminds.
AskaniPsion
03-10-06, 11:35 AM I see the Dreaming Dark/Inspired kinda like the Shadows from the TV show Babylon 5. They work behind the scenes. They have humans do their dirty work. I see the Kalashtar as the Minbari who know what the Inspired/DD really are and are trying to warn the other races how deadly the Inspired really are.
PoeticJustice
03-10-06, 12:04 PM The easiest way is not for the party to discover the DD, but for the DD to discover the party. If you implicate the party in an adventure that will trap a quori, aid the Kalashtar, set back their plans, or reveal the corruption of House Deneith , then the Dreaming Dark is justified in reaching its long arms and deep pockets to the cause of making the PCs miserable.

From there, drop a few hints like hired goons all claiming a common boss which would be an agent, or an agent of an agent, of the Dreaming Dark. If the party finds a hireling's ID papers, they'll know where that person lives. Provided they are intelligent and motivated properly, they'll seek out such a place and look for clues, finding perhaps a letter written in Riedran or a psionic device. Remember that Races of Eberron introduces a psionic memory storage device, allowing you to reveal the villian, his plot, and their influence in one grand stroke without compromising versimilitude.

After such a discovery I'd ease up to lower tension, then after few weeks, when the DD had regrouped and scryed the party for a good long while, I'd bring the hammer down. Get them excommunicated from their church, declared traitors to the Nation, and targeted by House Deneith Sentinels all on the same day.
igotsmeakabob!!
03-10-06, 01:48 PM Poetic I LIKE that! I may use it.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Charles Phipps 03-09-06, 03:51 PM	This seems to be a point of contention here in the storyline and it occurs to me that there's a number of ways to portray the organization. The best example we have of the DD in action is in Mr. Baker's Trilogy about them. However, there's a number of schools of thought about them and its important that we share each other's versions of it. Here's my version. The biggest influence to my version of the Dreaming Dark is Wolfram and Hart from Angel. The Senior Partners to me represent a good idea about how you deal with essentially a group of individuals that are utterly immaterial in the physical world but have to interact through intermediaries. The Quori themselves are vile, vile, vile, reprehensible people themselves but their goals aren't based on causally causing the suffering of others but instead gaining and furthering their influence across Khovaire. Two things I further try to instill in my depictions of them is 1: They are very subtle. and 2: They are not THAT subtle. The Dreaming Dark is ultimately impotent in comparison to the Lords of Dust or Dragons whom possess incredible personal power. Their entire agenda depends on essentially emasculating the people under their control of anything resembling power and original thought. They're aware that furthermore their position is a tenuous one. They have conquered Reidra to their liking but gods have been overthrown before and entire cultures have changed in an eyeblink. The Dreaming Dark thus treads extremely softly in Khovaire because even if they are immortal, their whole plan essentially is about trying to take away human free will and its a house of cards that could easily fall to pieces even were tomorrow they able to once more manifest physically in reality. They are building a house of cards that could easily fall apart should it draw the attention of elder forces or even spread new religion or magical ways of thinking in their controlled environment. The Dreaming Dark's need for control means that while they can employ forces like the Emerald Claw and Aurrum for their efforts, they have to keep a closer involvement than they might like because human free will is a tenacious thing and even the least change in their plans means a potential for disaster. While a "Great War" may work in broad strokes, its not like they were able to control evert battle in it. This involvement means that their plans are directly thwartable. I also tend to think that the DD sadly furthermore needs a good number of independent minded people who don't worship them in addition to their host bodies despite what they think, they can't be everywhere and the number of Inspired just doesn't equal their tasks. It's the ironic curse of their existence.
igotsmeakabob!! 03-09-06, 04:59 PM	So subtle its impossible to write anything for them. Hehe. If an organization has enough time (like for the rest of eternity), they can be so subtle that its unlikely that anyone but other organizations with that sort of time will identify what they are trying to do.
Charles Phipps 03-09-06, 05:29 PM	So subtle its impossible to write anything for them. Hehe. If an organization has enough time (like for the rest of eternity), they can be so subtle that its unlikely that anyone but other organizations with that sort of time will identify what they are trying to do. To me, that actually makes them insignificant. They make no impact on history if their threads woven are so utterly unnoticible that they mean nothing in the grand scheme of things. Also, it devalues them as villains. I'm very much a "Specter"/Power Broker type of Dreaming Dark honestly. It's fun to say "So utterly unnoticble that they cannot be described" but at heart, the PCs are more important than the villains and anything they cannot face is something that shouldn't exist.
DBlizzard 03-09-06, 05:46 PM	To me, that actually makes them insignificant. They make no impact on history if their threads woven are so utterly unnoticible that they mean nothing in the grand scheme of things.Not too long ago, there was a thread on ENWorld that was something like "Eberron fans name 3 things you don't like about Eberron." One of my things was the fact that the Lords of Dust and Dreaming Dark are supposedly so subtle that players won't ever know they are facing them. Keith replied that, in his view, the Dreaming Dark are the villains that are behind the plot the PCs are involved with. You don't deal with the DD until a long, long time "peeling the onion" of plots and subplots. However, eventually you will discover them.
Rechan 03-09-06, 07:24 PM	Keith replied that, in his view, the Dreaming Dark are the villains that are behind the plot the PCs are involved with. You don't deal with the DD until a long, long time "peeling the onion" of plots and subplots. However, eventually you will discover them. Some of us aren't too good at writing those kinds of adventures, though. Some sample "adventure seeds" or plot outlines with the DD would be nice. To me though, the LoD are subtle, yes, but they are doing grand things. Like, trying to crash one of the moons into Eberron, causing an enormous earthquake by making the shard containing a Rajah unearth from the ground. Trying to Wake Up Khyber himself. Earth shattering things. They couldn't care less about the modern races, except that they are distractions. Sure, they may be patient enough to wait for the stars to align for just the right moment, but when they Do make their move, it's gunna be Big. As a side note, the Quori don't have eternity. The idea is that Dal Quor works on a cycle. Dreams. Nightmares. Dreams. Nightmares. This is "The Wheel" that the Kalasthar are working to turn. Currently, we're on Nightmare, and as soon as it rolls back over to Dreams, the Quori are no longer evil nasties. More the reason why they want to invade Eberron soon.
SonofKhyber 03-09-06, 07:52 PM	What I have found is that if you just forget all about the Dreaming Dark ( or the Lords of Dust, etc.) as the main villains and just run your game as you would normally, then at some point later on, you can ( at your leisure and at a time of your choosing ) tie all those little plots together and have the Dreaming Dark or the Lords of Dust show up as the masters behind the scenes. You don't have to worry about your PCs not falling for the hook or that they will uncover the manipulators that are pulling the strings. You eliminate the stress of trying to tell your story and constantly asking yourself " How is the Dreaming Dark tied to all this ?" or " Why is the Dreaming Dark doing this?" It has made my Eberron campaign run a little more smoothly.
Charles Phipps 03-09-06, 08:00 PM	The way I use the Dreaming Dark to keep subtley is several ways... 1. Cutaways I know some people don't like this because it spoils the mystery but I often 'flash to' a scene where the agents of the Dreaming Dark talk in a vague sense about their evil plan afootTM. 2. A Recurring DD One character I always had show up was based on Fallen's Azazel. Basically, this guy would randomly possess people around the PC's and often taunt them that he was involved in deep whatever horror they were facing and then walk away when done. For extrapoints, he hummed "Time is on my side'
Rechan 03-09-06, 10:25 PM	2. A Recurring DD One character I always had show up was based on Fallen's Azazel. Basically, this guy would randomly possess people around the PC's and often taunt them that he was involved in deep whatever horror they were facing and then walk away when done. For extrapoints, he hummed "Time is on my side' I really wish there was a PrC or a Power or something that reflected that ability. Fallen was a good movie (albeit it's near-impossible to kill that guy).
Charles Phipps 03-09-06, 10:48 PM	I really wish there was a PrC or a Power or something that reflected that ability. Fallen was a good movie (albeit it's near-impossible to kill that guy). Well there's always Magic Jar. ;-) Plus, the Dreaming Dark DO possess people all the time. 3. The Loyal minions in direct contact For the Wolfram and Hart like feel at its most, I had a legal firm in Sharn that was run by the Inspired as they handled the affairs of the Aurrum, mobsters, and plenty of other people that they served as an intermediary for. The great irony was that they often passed along missions and hired things from their own dime but no one expected such obvious crimminals were orchestrating their own scheme. They were thus visible and yet also hidden and isolated from the law.
Rechan 03-09-06, 11:09 PM	3. The Loyal minions in direct contact For the Wolfram and Hart like feel at its most, I had a legal firm in Sharn that was run by the Inspired as they handled the affairs of the Aurrum, mobsters, and plenty of other people that they served as an intermediary for. The great irony was that they often passed along missions and hired things from their own dime but no one expected such obvious crimminals were orchestrating their own scheme. I really like this one. But who is it that are passing along missions and hired things from their own dime? The clients, or the DD? The clients were doing things that were generally "out of their field", i.e. Daask enforcers being bodyguards for high-profile criminals doing DD operations?
Belabras 03-09-06, 11:42 PM	As a side note, the Quori don't have eternity. The idea is that Dal Quor works on a cycle. Dreams. Nightmares. Dreams. Nightmares. This is "The Wheel" that the Kalasthar are working to turn. Currently, we're on Nightmare, and as soon as it rolls back over to Dreams, the Quori are no longer evil nasties. More the reason why they want to invade Eberron soon. True, but the Quori get something like 4 times the amount of time passed on the prime/Eberron plane to plot and scheme. It must seem like things are moving in slow motion to them when they posses the Inspired.
Charles Phipps 03-10-06, 07:18 AM	I really like this one. But who is it that are passing along missions and hired things from their own dime? The clients, or the DD? The clients were doing things that were generally "out of their field", i.e. Daask enforcers being bodyguards for high-profile criminals doing DD operations? In general, the issue is that everyone needs money and also information to continue performing their activities. The Dreaming Dark Law FirmTM would provide their clients with a valuable service under the pretext of recieving a fee. Emerald Claw need to know about Karrnathian diplomat needing to be killed? Fine, here's a wonderfully high profile target. Here's a perfectly good one. Set up the Aurrum member to have a wonderful alibi and thus bring even more of a Dragonmark house under the control of a united group (and the Illuminati serves Reidra's plans very well)? Why not. In addition greasing the wheel of evil, they provide 'ideas' that help things run along even as most dismiss them as a corrupt law firm and crimminal organization when its actually weaving dozens of strings and putting their hands in hundreds of pies to weaken Khovaire morally and economically while also giving them titanic influence and information for the day they will take it over (perhaps by 'saving' it). The DD is doing all of this directly but their genius is the fact that the players are unlikely (but not impossible) to realize the middle men in the mission are the masterminds.
AskaniPsion 03-10-06, 11:35 AM	I see the Dreaming Dark/Inspired kinda like the Shadows from the TV show Babylon 5. They work behind the scenes. They have humans do their dirty work. I see the Kalashtar as the Minbari who know what the Inspired/DD really are and are trying to warn the other races how deadly the Inspired really are.
PoeticJustice 03-10-06, 12:04 PM	The easiest way is not for the party to discover the DD, but for the DD to discover the party. If you implicate the party in an adventure that will trap a quori, aid the Kalashtar, set back their plans, or reveal the corruption of House Deneith , then the Dreaming Dark is justified in reaching its long arms and deep pockets to the cause of making the PCs miserable. From there, drop a few hints like hired goons all claiming a common boss which would be an agent, or an agent of an agent, of the Dreaming Dark. If the party finds a hireling's ID papers, they'll know where that person lives. Provided they are intelligent and motivated properly, they'll seek out such a place and look for clues, finding perhaps a letter written in Riedran or a psionic device. Remember that Races of Eberron introduces a psionic memory storage device, allowing you to reveal the villian, his plot, and their influence in one grand stroke without compromising versimilitude. After such a discovery I'd ease up to lower tension, then after few weeks, when the DD had regrouped and scryed the party for a good long while, I'd bring the hammer down. Get them excommunicated from their church, declared traitors to the Nation, and targeted by House Deneith Sentinels all on the same day.
igotsmeakabob!! 03-10-06, 01:48 PM	Poetic I LIKE that! I may use it.