Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Charles Phipps 08-25-06, 10:02 PM	One of our player characters is King Boranal's illegitimate son and frankly lets no one forget otherwise. Interested in setting himself up as a monarch, he's spent much of his in-game time trying to figure out how he can become a King in Eberron. This seems an insurmountable task but has become something of a running joke in our games. He's plotted out several possibilities that are listed below. Most of these are fairly difficult at best. Dargunn: The most unrealistic of options, the option of destroying the new Goblin homeland is a seemingly insurmountable job that requires near-genocide levels of battle to win. They are unlikely to accept a non-goblin leader and even a slave revolt has prescious little chance of victory. The region is unsettled though and hardly unified. The death of the king and resulting civil war could allow a partioning of the land if the player characters can get enough of a force together to drive the Dargunns out of the left or right half of the region. If they're willing to make a deal with the weaker and more disadvantages groups in the region (especially those not envisioning a new Dhakaani) then they might be able to get many goblins as their own allies in a mixed culture region. The best option would be to claim the right region even as Breland is unlikely to recognize a newly liberated region and will more likely annex their new neighbor. Droam: Already performed by the Bard in question, the key to becoming King was too distasteful for him to undergo. The Daughters of Sora Kell are desperate for recognition and a person willing to treat them as royalty. They're also quite willing to accept any aid in legitimizing their kingdom. But it is an uneasy triumviante and really, unless a party has three men of noble birth and roughly similiar pedigrees willing to marry into them, they are unlikely to give much in the way of permanent title or power in the land of Droam. Nevertheless, the monsters might be strong allies if one has ambitions to conquer the Shadow Marches or the Eldeen Reaches. Eldeen Reaches: Taking over the Eldeen Reaches will be a complete failure if one attempts to use force, however, using the spectre of Aundair above combined with an alliance with the Druids might be enough to actually propell a man from an independent series of unrelated peoples to a LOOSELY tied together kingdom under a High King. Ruling softly with a light hand is the key to taming the Eldeen Reaches. Take note that if an attack doesn't come before you're King, an attack WILL come once you've declared it. Defeating Aundair may not be a problem though with a people used to fighting them but if you do....then the other nations will be swift to recognize the independent kingdom and kill Aundair's ambitions ot taking over the Reaches forever. Karrnath: Taking over one of the Five Nations can never be easy but its easiest in Karrnath where Kaius is at the end of his rope. The trick to taking over Karrnath is really simply a matter of brute force and tactics. Exposing Kaius as a vampire honestly means little and it simply means you have to kill the real heir when you get your hands on him. If you can crush the Warlords in battle then they'll likely surrender and serve under you but not before. Also, bizarrely, as soon as you win you'll have to go to war. Valenar is the best choice as the warrior nation has few friends and won't reignite the Last War even as you can expect to spend the rest of your life in battle with it. Q'Barra: The Q'barrans will likely only accept a person willing to declare himself Emperor of Galifar again and that's a bit of a problem to begin with. However, they might mute this if a member of the Royal Family resolves their lizardman problems and wins the respect of the locals. They're a people longing for a firm and steady rule so it shouldn't be too much of a problem. Sarlona: Shwa Right, just overcome centuries of religious indoctrinication and slaughter every fanatically faithful member of their religion with both good and evil. Then kill every Inspired since you'll need to in order to prevent the Quori from coming back. Easier would be to control the Haven Region as the Kalashatar don't care about rulership and the non-Kalashatar might appreciate a despotic leader whom can stand up to the Reidrans. Thrane: Throneport: The city and former Capital of Galifar is unclaimed by anyone and if you're willing to settle for a small kingdom, it really wouldn't be that difficult to 'restore order' but god help you if you try to claim the Imperial Palace as an Emperor. A best option is to rule as "Governor for Galifar" and few people would risk invading the capital anyway. Xen'drick: A nation practically built for Cortez style conquest and native alliances for rulership.
Edymnion 08-25-06, 10:38 PM	IMO, none of these options will work. Eberron is not ruled by military warlords, but by nobles. You gotta know how to play the game, and you gotta have connections. At most, he could take some place over by force or guile, but he would not be recognized as a legitimate ruler by anyone else, no more than a south american warlord would stand a chance at being recognized as a legal ruler of a country he invaded with drug money equipped rebels. He would be seen as an invader, an imposter, etc. However, there is one way I can think of that he could potentially take over. The Lhazaar Principalities could be won over by enough daring do and the like. Although, I believe there is already a system in place for leadership of the region, but I don't recall what it is off the top of my head. The region is loose enough though that the character could potentially bypass that system by going directly to the people by becoming a renowned pirate king.
Charles Phipps 08-25-06, 10:44 PM	IMO, none of these options will work. Eberron is not ruled by military warlords, but by nobles. You gotta know how to play the game, and you gotta have connections. At most, he could take some place over by force or guile, but he would not be recognized as a legitimate ruler by anyone else, no more than a south american warlord would stand a chance at being recognized as a legal ruler of a country he invaded with drug money equipped rebels. He would be seen as an invader, an imposter, etc. However, there is one way I can think of that he could potentially take over. The Lhazaar Principalities could be won over by enough daring do and the like. Although, I believe there is already a system in place for leadership of the region, but I don't recall what it is off the top of my head. The region is loose enough though that the character could potentially bypass that system by going directly to the people by becoming a renowned pirate king. An important thing to remember in Eberron is that ultimately the rules of Bloodline are things that are enforced by military power and nothing more. The proof of the Last War is that the Cyrean claim to the throne was so much paper that it was printed on. The fact that few of the nations that exist in Eberron are places that even recognize the descent of Galifar also further goes to proove the lie of divine rite by blood. Karrnath created the Galifar lineage and he ruled through military force and nothing more. Take note that only karrnath is listed as place where one can take over one one of the Four Nations and that's only because the people honestly couldn't care less about bloodline, only power.
maollelujah 08-25-06, 10:57 PM	I really don't see most of those scenarios working. Maybe Q'barra, but unless he is in Q'Barra building connections and a power base, I can't see it working. Since he is Brelish, I think his best chance would be Breland, because that is where he has the most connections. But his chances in Breland are pretty slim. Maybe he will get stranded on an Island with a boat load of people and he can become the King there. Of course if there are major changes a breast, then it might be possible, I like War. And there is always the chance he could become 'Inspired'.
Charles Phipps 08-25-06, 11:01 PM	I honestly don't see how his heritage would matter in the Eldeen Reaches since that is a case of the country being composed of refugees from dozens of different locations anyway. Frankly, its not like he has to advertise his heritage either. This is a general "places ANYONE could take over" though as opposed to places that the character specifically could.
Edymnion 08-25-06, 11:31 PM	An important thing to remember in Eberron is that ultimately the rules of Bloodline are things that are enforced by military power and nothing more. The proof of the Last War is that the Cyrean claim to the throne was so much paper that it was printed on. The fact that few of the nations that exist in Eberron are places that even recognize the descent of Galifar also further goes to proove the lie of divine rite by blood. Karrnath created the Galifar lineage and he ruled through military force and nothing more.Yes, but you will notice that all of the major players were established nobles and royalty BEFORE the war. And the new nations that were recognized were and are led by nobles and politicians. None of them were "Joe Everyman kills a bunch of people and gets made King".
Charles Phipps 08-25-06, 11:33 PM	Well except for the mercenaries in Darguun... or the nobodies in the Eldeen Reaches. Or the people in Q'barra. The Valenar are debatable. Besides, PCs are legendary heroes.
Splendide 08-26-06, 01:23 AM	The best one I could think of would be taking back Valenar from the filthy traitor elves. You've got an indifferent peasant populace, intimidated by a bunch of roving horsemen. They're not known for great technology, but for skills and a little magic. It could be argued that them taking over was a fluke anyway...they betrayed a trust, and seized the land while the government was busy elsewhere. If any country's reputation exceeds its defence, I'd say its Valenar. And wouldn't it be nice for everyone on Khorvaire to have a little bit of Cyre restored without grey crap all over it? Oh yes.
yossarius 08-26-06, 01:34 AM	If anything, being the illegitimite child of Borenel actually may work against him, not for him. Isn't it likely that each of the legitimite nations have had to deal with "holdless blooded nobles" that want a larger piece of the pie from time to time. If none of the other nations accept you as a king, you're not a king, just a military dictator that one or more of the other "real nobles" are just looking for a chance to knock over. Real world history suggests that the easiest way for him to become a king is to build a kingdom. It doesn't have to be huge. He commissions a few airships to find him a decent-sized, uncharted island and he creates a new kingdom out of whole cloth. Being recognized by the other rulers as a king becomes a matter of diplomacy. It's much easier to conduct diplomacy when the other parties see you as a reasonable person, rather than a bloodthirsty wanna-be tyrant. After all, Khorvaire boasts quite enough blood-thirsty tyrants already, thank you very much.
Hellcow 08-26-06, 01:35 AM	Well, since I WAS invited... Droam: The Daughters of Sora Kell are desperate for recognition and a person willing to treat them as royalty. Personally, I have a very different view of the Daughters of Sora Kell. I see them as far more enigmatic than this. They've been playing games for centuries, and heck, Sora Teraza already knows what's going to happen (even if she won't always tell her sisters). In my opinion, the Daughters are playing a very long game, and are far more cunning than most people expect. Even their "failed" attempt to gain acceptance at Thronehold may have been part of their plan; after all, the net result is that many of the Thronehold nations don't take them seriously, which may be exactly what Katra wanted. It may be that Sora Katra does want more temporal power. I just don't see her as "desperate". In my opinion, she's one of the most cunning and dangerous people on Khorvaire. But I then again, I prefer to play the Daughters as a mysterious source of information - plot device rather than foe. I like the fact that monsters aren't always the enemy, and I like making the players match wits with Sora Katra, trying to unravel her assistance and determine what her true motives are, trying to decide if they can afford to accept her aid or whether it's too dangerous. To me, the Daughters are the stuff of folklore and faerie tale; they possess the power to aid or hinder, and the question is whether you can play their game. But, that's MY take on them. I have no problem with people who want to use them as warmongering tyrants or the approach you've taken, Charles. It's just not the one I take. Personally, if I was to have a PC seek power in Droaam, I'd have him try to build an alliance among the lesser warlords - creating a coalition to challenge the Daughters. If he willing to marry the Queen of Stone? Eldeen Reaches: The people of the Eldeen Reaches have a "loose" leader already - Oalian. And there are leaders among the sects and tribes, and heroes of the conflict with Aundair. If Oalian personally endorsed a leader, I could see him gaining the support of the Reaches; but I don't see it happening without this, and I'm not sure why Oalian would pick a Brelish royal with no loyalty to the druidic traditions. If he did turn to the path, helped in the struggle against Aundair, and if YOU decide that he's destined to be King and have Oalian crown him, great. But frankly, I'd be more likely to have the High King of the Eldeen Reaches be some Eldeen farmboy (or girl) who is called to this destiny by Oalian than a son of King Boranel. It seems to me that this title would go to someone who wasn't looking for it - not an ambitious scion of the Five Nations. I honestly don't see how his heritage would matter in the Eldeen Reaches since that is a case of the country being composed of refugees from dozens of different locations anyway. Are you talking about Q'barra? In the Eldeen Reaches, I think his faith will matter more than his nationality. But at the same time, the Reaches are a place where the people have just recently thrown off the yoke OF the Five Nations. Hence, it seems unlikely that they'd choose an heir of one of these kingdoms and make him a king. Again, I could see a campaign in which someone becomes king of the Reaches, but I'd make it someone you WOULDN'T expect. And it would all be in the hands - or branches - of Oalian. Karrnath: Taking over one of the Five Nations can never be easy but its easiest in Karrnath where Kaius is at the end of his rope. Here again, though... it's one thing if a Karrn warlord tries this; I think it will be considerably harder for a son of Breland. Take note that only karrnath is listed as place where one can take over one one of the Four Nations and that's only because the people honestly couldn't care less about bloodline, only power. I can't say as I agree. I think the Karrns are a very proud people; their ancestors were the founders of Galifar. I'm not saying it's impossible, especially if the noble wins the loyalty of Karrn warlords and essentially says "A hundred years ago, we were all Galifar. By accident of birth, I was born Brelish, but my heart is that of a Karrn." But I think it will be a challenge. Honestly, the simplest place to claim a crown would be the Lhazaar Principalities. Still not easy, but you have a lot of crowns for the taking, and many of the Principalities do value ability over bloodline. You'd have to win the loyalty of the people and prove your skills, of course. But if I had a PC wanting to claim a kingdom, I'd have him start out with a principality.
Charles Phipps 08-26-06, 01:41 AM	Re: Ancestry True enough, though as a note to settle an issue, its a matter of simply disguising one's ancestry (except from a being like Oalian tis true) rather than simply using it as a foothold. This might be a weakness of his kingdom wherever it might be but it's not necessarily something that he'd necessarily be known for. Re: Karrnath Kaius can be a vampire, a person of any nationality whom overthrows the current reigning monarch disguising himself as a son of it is another matter entirely. Though Keith does point out a good spin on 'accident of Brelish birth.' Re: Conquest Taking over a nation is never easy but it's something that can be worked for in any region I can note. An adventurer usually has no ties or armies or position to back himself up in taking over a nation. However, Eberron is unique in the fact that adventurers often gain great personal fame and glory to themselves that might be enough to seize control of a nation. Re: Illegitimate Birth I doubt a Brelish illegitimate heir would have any claim to the throne of Breland recognized as a son or not by European ancestral rules and I don't think Eberron is any different in this. Furthermore, Breland's monarchy is already on shaky grounds and Boranal is a man with numerous legitimate heirs to call upon for title or position. Re: The PC The player character's desire to be a King is also based upon his Druidic belief actually since his mother was a druidess and bore him in the Reaches during one of Boranal's campaigns in the region against Aundair (was there a campaign for Boranal in the Reaches? Probably not but there was in my campaign to fit his background). So I'm inclined that he'd probably choose that region to work from since he's a Druidic style Bard not poppinjay minstreal. He just has a Macbeth style ambition from the hatred he bears the Five Nations and his belief he could better. Re: The Daughters of Sora Kell Your view of them is certainly much more mysterious and impressive. My view of the Hags of Sora Kell was more akin to the fact that they are individuals whom suffered a rather titanic miscarriage of birth. In this case, that they were born to be hags. I actually ran the idea they were 'changelings' substituted for noblewomen's daughters in my game though that this takes them further from your concept even more. In this case, the three of them wanted to be accepted with their own kingdom...its just a kingdom of monsters. Your version may work much better and I may ask him to retool any plots and diplomacy thereof. Thanks for your participation Keith. As a question folks, anyone have any ideas for crowns to take in Eberron and how?
Hellcow 08-26-06, 01:45 AM	The best one I could think of would be taking back Valenar from the filthy traitor elves. I admit that if you want a LARGE kingdom, this is a good idea. However, while I've always said that if one of the Five Nations were to set its mind to kicking out the Valenar, they'd be screwed... it might be a little more difficult for a lone PC. After all, there are 40,000 of those filthy traitor elves (not to mention the question of the Tairnadal still on Aerenal), and they're a match for elite troops of most nations. Likewise, I think the challenge would be actually pushing them away. They've got excellent Survival skills, they like a challenge, and there's a LOT of open space in Valenar; if faced with a massive army, I think they'd just fade away and happily commando-raid you for decades to come, given you a kingdom with its own ready-made highly-skilled insurgency. I can see many ways you could disrupt the elf control of Valenar, but it might be considerably harder to completely drive them from the land. Furthermore, I think the real challenge might come from House Lyrandar; in my opinion, the Khoravar have their own long-term plans for Valenar. However, PCs are exceptional individuals, and there's certainly lots of paths you could take to accomplish this; and there's no question that the other leaders of the Five Nations would be happy to see the Valenar go. But I still think Lhazaar is the easiest path for a would-be king to get started... at least, if he's willing to start out as a prince.
Hellcow 08-26-06, 01:52 AM	Taking over a nation is never easy but it's something that can be worked for in any region I can note. Certainly. So I'm inclined that he'd probably choose that region to work from since he's a Druidic style Bard not poppinjay minstreal. He just has a Macbeth style ambition. And my problem is that I see the ruler of the Reaches, if one is chosen, being someone who doesn't have ambition. Again, right now Oalian is the ruler; I just have trouble seeing him choosing someone who wants power and glory for its own sake, as opposed to having the interests of the Reaches first and foremost in his heart. Of course, it could be interesting to have Oalian grant him the title and tell him "You do not deserve this now. But I know that you will come to deserve it in time, just as the acorn grows into the oak." Then start hitting him with serious challenges to the Reaches and his rule; challenge him to become the just king Oalian has said he will be, even if that wasn't his original motivation.
Splendide 08-26-06, 02:01 AM	I admit that if you want a LARGE kingdom, this is a good idea. However, while I've always said that if one of the Five Nations were to set its mind to kicking out the Valenar, they'd be screwed... it might be a little more difficult for a lone PC. After all, there are 40,000 of those filthy traitor elves (not to mention the question of the Tairnadal still on Aerenal), and they're a match for elite troops of most nations. Likewise, I think the challenge would be actually pushing them away. They've got excellent Survival skills, they like a challenge, and there's a LOT of open space in Valenar; if faced with a massive army, I think they'd just fade away and happily commando-raid you for decades to come, given you a kingdom with its own ready-made highly-skilled insurgency. I can see many ways you could disrupt the elf control of Valenar, but it might be considerably harder to completely drive them from the land.Oh sure, but completely removing them from the land wasn't the aim. I kind of read this as being that the ruler, while he won't be a king, is entirely happy to rule by force. I think we're familiar with how insurgencies encourage nationalism. Also clearing out pockets of Valenar gives Commander PC something to do after he's in place ;) This new Cyre wouldn't culturally have a lot in common with the old, as circumstances would require it to become an armed...well...republic. Maybe Oargev might get an invite as a figurehead, but PC1 would be locking in true authority. I imagine it becoming a mini-Karrnath, likely having been aided by Karrnath in the land's conquest in the first place.
Charles Phipps 08-26-06, 02:04 AM	And my problem is that I see the ruler of the Reaches, if one is chosen, being someone who doesn't have ambition. Again, right now Oalian is the ruler; I just have trouble seeing him choosing someone who wants power and glory for its own sake, as opposed to having the interests of the Reaches first and foremost in his heart. Of course, it could be interesting to have Oalian grant him the title and tell him "You do not deserve this now. But I know that you will come to deserve it in time, just as the acorn grows into the oak." Then start hitting him with serious challenges to the Reaches and his rule; challenge him to become the just king Oalian has said he will be, even if that wasn't his original motivation. Well in the character's defense, I think it's more the issue he's frustrated with the "Summertime War" (you are free to describe it differently) where raiding parties from Aundair sneak in to slaughter villagers or soldiers before sneaking back over the border while Aurala sponsors raiding, curses, and inter-clanish troubles in the eventual hope of weakening the land for invasion. Certainly, if he ever returns to the Eldeen Reaches he'll have to be confronted with the fact the locals are probably righteously cheezed he left to investigate his blood ties to a foreign ruler and furthermore that he's been off fighting evil in alien lands than attempting to live up to his responsibilities as a child of the land in the region. The character has essentially been "running away" from a land he's rejected for turning against his mother (for reasons we've yet to establish and I hope to figure out someday as the DM). If he ever is before Oalian I imagine that the character will recieve a firm dressing down from on high. The equivalent of a prophet saying "Solomon you ****ing moron! Have you heard nothing that we say?" ala the Bible occasionally had moments of. Regarding ambition and power for 'its own sake.' I do think it's important that a person is chosen for a monarch that is cursed/blessed with ambition and resolve. It takes a person whom is possessed of a very large vision and uncompromising attitude to essentially avoid Chamberlain mistakes where the good of the nation is sacrificed to avoid individual sacrifice. What I'm seeing from your description of Oalian is essentially he might want a William Wallace type figure whom is born of the peasantry and has no ambitions to throne but to be protector of the lands. Which is all well and good but on the same token, the idea of someone able to unite the lands/people into a powerful nation and strike back against Aundair to make sure they never again menace the Reaches while building ties is something he might see the wisdom of.
Hellcow 08-26-06, 02:16 AM	Also clearing out pockets of Valenar gives Commander PC something to do after he's in place ;) Sure, but that's the hard part. As a majority-ranger force, the Valenar are highly moble, good at living off the land, and skilled at stealth operations. They're not likely to sit in one place waiting to be found; they'll be striking at supply lines, etc., and moving on. I've actually suggested before that the Valaes Tairn may have seized the territory of Valenar precisely because they WANT someone to take it back from them. The ancestors the Valenar seek to emulate were rebels fighting a guerilla war against a more powerful foe. The Valenar aren't interested in ruling territory; they want war and to glorify their ancestors. By claiming the territory and taking time to become deeply familiar with the land (and plant caches, etc) they ensure that they'll have an edge against the army that comes to take it back... and then they get to fight their own ultimately hopeless but nonetheless heroic struggle against Karrnath or whoever, just as their ancestors fought the giants. So on some level, by attacking Valenar, you may be giving the elves what they want! Meanwhile, it's the half-elves who may prove a problem. The human peasants may not care one way or the other, but given the Tairnadal willingness to let the half-elves handle administration, many half-elves see an opportunity to make Valenar a Khoravar state. So setting aside the 40,000 elves, you've got 10,500 Khoravar who may be none to happy to see a human king arrive. Personally, I think the trickiest way to take Valenar back would be to trigger another conflict between Aerenal and Argonnessen; that's what got the elves to leave Khorvaire the last time!
Charles Phipps 08-26-06, 02:20 AM	I admit that if you want a LARGE kingdom, this is a good idea. However, while I've always said that if one of the Five Nations were to set its mind to kicking out the Valenar, they'd be screwed... it might be a little more difficult for a lone PC. After all, there are 40,000 of those filthy traitor elves (not to mention the question of the Tairnadal still on Aerenal), and they're a match for elite troops of most nations. Likewise, I think the challenge would be actually pushing them away. They've got excellent Survival skills, they like a challenge, and there's a LOT of open space in Valenar; if faced with a massive army, I think they'd just fade away and happily commando-raid you for decades to come, given you a kingdom with its own ready-made highly-skilled insurgency. I can see many ways you could disrupt the elf control of Valenar, but it might be considerably harder to completely drive them from the land. Furthermore, I think the real challenge might come from House Lyrandar; in my opinion, the Khoravar have their own long-term plans for Valenar. However, PCs are exceptional individuals, and there's certainly lots of paths you could take to accomplish this; and there's no question that the other leaders of the Five Nations would be happy to see the Valenar go. But I still think Lhazaar is the easiest path for a would-be king to get started... at least, if he's willing to start out as a prince. Defeating the Valenar is an issue that I think could be handled in a multitude of ways. I do tend to think that they are one of the most formidable military powers in all of Eberron though and that its practically impossible to defeat them in open battle or....frankly.....Karrnath would have already done it by this point. Hell, if King Kaius thought he could win then he could have long since solidified his control over Karrnath with a no doubt popular war with the Valenar...plus keep his warlords occupied. I honestly think the best way to handle the Valenar first is to demoralize their army. Striking at their horses is the clearest and cleanest way to drastically reduce their effectiveness and if you could raise an army then figuring out a way to build a magical plague against their mighty steeds would be the best way to win you a vastly weakened enemy. Honestly, I'm also fairly sure that would make you hated forever by the Valenar and unless you find a scapegoat...don't expect to reign long. Defeating them in open battle without skullduggery or undead would probably win you respect and they'd probably retire in their equivalent of relative peace. I'm not sure how interbreeding is looked upon in Valenar and while it would be difficult for ANY non-valenar elven warrior to win their respect, they could possibly marry into an elven household. Given they worship their ancestors, I doubt any would evr accept a human overlord though.
pquekadl 08-26-06, 02:35 AM	He could try to colonize the frost fell, though the local conditions make going there counter productive to most peoples' goal of living. You could run him through a campaign arc in which he reclaims the Mournland, "fixing" whatever stops the place from getting back to normal. He'd have to compeat with Oargev for rulership of the reclaimed Mournland.
ArcTan 08-26-06, 02:36 AM	Throneport: The city and former Capital of Galifar is unclaimed by anyone and if you're willing to settle for a small kingdom, it really wouldn't be that difficult to 'restore order' but god help you if you try to claim the Imperial Palace as an Emperor. A best option is to rule as "Governor for Galifar" and few people would risk invading the capital anyway. Er, no. Throneport is already ruled and administrated -- such as it is -- by House Deneith, who view guarding the Imperial Capital as one of their highest duties, thanks to the huge symbolic importance it holds. No one gets to rule Throneport unless Deneith is satisfied that all legitimate authority agrees they are the rightful King of Galifar. There won't be any taking over Throneport, decoupling it from its symbolic value as the capital of the Empire and then ruling it as an independent state -- Deneith won't allow it. Not that it's all that big anyway -- we're talking a large city, *not* an independent territory the size of a Nation.
Splendide 08-26-06, 02:38 AM	Sure, but that's the hard part.Sure, but it doesn't interfere with the act of being a ruler as such...it makes the country harder to manage. For the aim of `become a ruler', well, thats just a part of it. I also wouldn't expect an overland invasion, mainly because they would have to come across desert of the Mournland to do it! They'd start with the coast and work inland over however long. I don't believe those are ideal circumstances for the Valenar. Meanwhile, it's the half-elves who may prove a problem. The human peasants may not care one way or the other, but given the Tairnadal willingness to let the half-elves handle administration, many half-elves see an opportunity to make Valenar a Khoravar state. So setting aside the 40,000 elves, you've got 10,500 Khoravar who may be none to happy to see a human king arrive.Thats probably nothing that can't be prepared for. After all, this human king's line is only one generation away from being khoravar. Find an appropriate elf of khorvaire for him to marry, and there's that solved. Also the more thoughtful half-elves may consider it a better bet to work with a human conqueror looking to build a kingdom, than a coalition of nomadic elves with deathwishes. Personally, I think the trickiest way to take Valenar back would be to trigger another conflict between Aerenal and Argonnessen; that's what got the elves to leave Khorvaire the last time!Yep. Or getting the Riedrans on-side.
ArcTan 08-26-06, 02:42 AM	But, that's MY take on them. I have no problem with people who want to use them as warmongering tyrants or the approach you've taken, Charles. It's just not the one I take. Oh, I have a problem with it. It's a general problem, but I still have a problem with this trope that if we have a female ruler or powerful woman anywhere people will inevitably suggest the (male) PC try to solve his problems by marrying her. Because every female -- of whatever race, culture, level of personal power, personality, whatever -- needs a man in her life, for whatever reason. No ruler can be a *real* ruler without a husband. I'm overstating the case and don't want to come off as a kneejerk feminist, but the thing about the hags wanting husbands was funny because it was ridiculous. Of all the female rulers in Khorvaire, the hags are the *least* likely to be on the lookout for husbands -- in every way they're described as being wholly independent and in no way respectful of Khorvaire's medievalesque cultural traditions. And hags, as a species, are *supposed* to be matriarchal -- they're an all-female magical species, that's the whole *point*! If they wanted sex, they could get sex. Sora Maenya already *does* roam the countryside using magic to take any shape she wishes and bed anyone whom she can manipulate into having her. I don't see them needing romance in their lives, and I sure as hell don't think they need a political marriage to become "respectable" -- they rule the MONSTER NATION, for cripes' sake. Sorry, Phipps, but no. No way is the hackneyed "The spinster queen needs a husband!" plot making its way into my Eberron, and *especially* no way is it going to taint the reputation of some of the coolest villains in the game. And I do have to protest the attempt, out of respect for the hags if nothing else.
Hellcow 08-26-06, 03:09 AM	Well in the character's defense, I think it's more the issue he's frustrated with the "Summertime War" (you are free to describe it differently) where raiding parties from Aundair sneak in to slaughter villagers... Hmm, and as the representative for Aundair, I'd say "Soldiers sneaking across borders to kill innocents? You must mean the Ashbound, Children of Winter, and Eldeen Wolves. Oh, wait, those are all people from the Eldeen Reaches. No, I'm sure you're right, we must be the ones doing all the bad things." Honestly, if he does become King of the Reaches - and actually, with his background, it does sound considerably more plausible than I first thought - one challenge is that others might seek to hold him accountable for the actions of these groups. And what about the Gloaming? Which is all well and good but on the same token, the idea of someone able to unite the lands/people into a powerful nation and strike back against Aundair to make sure they never again menace the Reaches while building ties is something he might see the wisdom of. Perhaps, but remember the history of the Reaches. All of the Reaches beyond the Towering Woods used to BE Aundair. The people of western Aundair were drawn together by the Wardens of the Wood, acting in Oalian's name... and the people of the region chose to swear allegiance to the Great Druid. That was 42 years ago; it's quite possible nonhumans involved in the secession are still alive. One - the bard Briar - is actually mentioned as being imprisoned in Dreadhold. There's a few issues here. One is a question of balance; the assumption being that Oalian felt it was necessary to protect the people of western Aundair in their time of trouble, but that he does not see further violence as being necessary or desirable. After all, they could have pressed on in 956 YK, but they chose to hold the border of the Wyrnarn River. There's the question of why people feel they need a king, and if they're looking for a military leader why they wouldn't turn to one of those Warden veterans of the war of secession. There's also the fact that until fifty years ago, the people of the eastern Reaches were citizens of Aundair; as such, they may have relatives across the border, making a serious open conflict distasteful to both sides. Aundair may want the Reaches back, and the Reachers may stubbornly maintain their independence, but the people of the grasslands - the ones who would suffer the most in an open war - are also the ones with the strongest ties TO Aundair. There are still those who feel some loyalty to the Church of the Silver Flame for defending their ancestors during the Feral Terror; a tiny minority, to be sure, but a fifth column nonetheless. Crucially, it sounds to me like you see a far more vicious relationship between the two nations. In my campaign, the people of Aundair truly hate the Reachers of the Towering Woods, who stole their land and brethren from them. But by and large they see the eastern Reachers AS Aundairians - stupid, stubborn Aundairans who need to be kicked in the butt and brought back home. As such, I wouldn't personally have Aundairian soldiers massacring villagers right on the border, because again, they might actually have relatives in those villages; I'd have them directing their hate at those druids and rangers to the west, the foul tree-worshippers of the Towering Woods. Given all this, I see Aundair's actions as being largely subtle, the Royal Eyes engaging in covert action to stir up unrest (as suggested on page 21 of Five Nations). Aundairian soldiers slaughtering villagers will simply cause survivors to become even more loyal to Oalian. But what if a detachment of Royal Eyes starts slaughtering villagers while disguised as Ashbound? This will force the survivors to question their loyalty to the force that has spawned these madmen of the woods... and the Ashbound ARE violent, though they usually seek to avoid unnecessary deaths. I see Aurala as being a fairly clever ruler... and I also see her as wanting to keep the bulk of her armies ready to act on the Thrane border. In my campaign, the reason the Five Nations aren't turning on Droaam, the Eldeen Reaches, and Valenar is that they are all too concerned with one another; the Last War is only two years gone, and the Mourning's all that's holding it at bay. Aurala's using the Royal Eyes to advance her plans in the Reaches, but she's preparing for the major war to begin again. But that's MY campaign, and it's clear that yours is quite different. I don't know your player and I don't know the political situation in your world. I said "ambition" because you said "Macbeth". I had no idea that the PC had connections to the Reaches until you mentioned them. You've got more open wounds between Aundair and the Reaches, which call out for action. Given that, and that your PC has "roots" in the region, I think the Reaches are a good choice. The people may challenge him and question his loyalty to the land, but Oalian may say that those roots run deep. The factors I mention above would be challenges and might produce challengERS; I could easily see an Eldeen Wolf calling this arrogant pup who thinks he's worthy of leading the land, when the Wolves HAVE been fighting Aundair. And I think to truly win the support of the people - especially those who live in the Towering Wood - he'll need the blessing of Oalian. But with all that said, I think it does sound like an interesting campaign, and a plausible path to follow; the fact that he's not just seeking power and glory for its own sake is all the more reason he may be worthy of that blessing.
Charles Phipps 08-26-06, 03:16 AM	Sorry, Phipps, but no. No way is the hackneyed "The spinster queen needs a husband!" plot making its way into my Eberron, and *especially* no way is it going to taint the reputation of some of the coolest villains in the game. And I do have to protest the attempt, out of respect for the hags if nothing else. Of course, it might do well for you to consider the fact that I didn't suggest Queen Aurala as a candidate or Jaela. No, in fact it didn't. Instead, you might have noted that most adventurers are male and it might have been in the reverse that marriage is a way for female adventurers to become a Queen. No, the point of marriage is that it is one of the time honored and powerful ways to legitimize an alliance. The Hag Nation is (in my campaign) essentially this bizarre and disgusting realm (to the other Nations) that craves legitimacy for the fact that they desire to raise crops and be treated as a legitimate political entity. A nation of PEOPLE rather than creatures. A marriage alliance is at best a recognition of the formal bonds between a man and a woman (or elsewise) which results in them being treated foremost and firstmost as people. Of course, my interpretation of the Hags has always been that they have never been 1. Particularly villainous 2. Particularly heinous 3. Particularly mysterious 4. Or even particularly powerful This is in direct odds with Keith's interpretations. My Hags have always been controlling the various power points in the PC lands by virtue of diplomacy and making alliances they've managed to enforce and keep. However, their control has been tenuous because of the fact that they are attempting to turn Droam into a 'civilized kingdom' rather than attempting to make it a savage land of horrors. Again, this seems in direct odds with the way Keith has presented them elsewhere and is born solely from my take on them from the book.
Hellcow 08-26-06, 03:18 AM	Also the more thoughtful half-elves may consider it a better bet to work with a human conqueror looking to build a kingdom, than a coalition of nomadic elves with deathwishes. That depends if we're just talking about "half-elves"... or long-established Khoravar families with their own agendas, such as House Lyrandar. To my mind, what House Lyrandar sees in Valenar is a chance to build what amounts to a corporate state with an army of highly skilled elves-with-a-death-wish, just waiting to be unleashed on the enemies of the house. A human coming along and wanting to be a traditional old-school king... and to kick the Valenar out on top of it... doesn't have much to offer. I'm seeing Valenar as the future Planet Starbucks - a place for Lyrandar to build its power outside of the Five Nations, while allowing the Valenar to draw attention away from what they are doing. But that's me. ;)
Splendide 08-26-06, 03:21 AM	I guess the only issue from there is, what do Medani do when they figure out what Lyrandar is up to?
Hellcow 08-26-06, 03:30 AM	The Hag Nation is (in my campaign) essentially this bizarre and disgusting realm (to the other Nations) that craves legitimacy for the fact that they desire to raise crops and be treated as a legitimate political entity... A nation of PEOPLE rather than creatures. And see, I ALSO see them as a nation of people rather than creatures... I just don't see them as desperately craving the approval of humanity. To my mind, this is a critical aspect of their worship of the Shadow; in their eyes, the Shadow is not an evil god, but rather feared and despised by Aureon, who has set humanity against the children of the Shadow. I see the monstrous races as proud. As a medusa of Cazhaak Draal, I am a being with powers no human can match, a citizen of a great city-state with my own noble queen; why do I need the approval of some human king? We should not be bowing and scraping to them; rather, they should come begging to us! To my mind, Droaam is a nation of wonders, and one of the most intriguing places on Khorvaire. Many of its people are savage and primitive, but others are far from it. What fascinates me are the cultures that would evolve among these magical beings - and just how different these would be from the human nations. The hags are attempting to unite disparate races and cultures... but I've never seen them as simply wanting to turn Droaam into another Breland. But again, your mileage may vary!
Charles Phipps 08-26-06, 03:36 AM	Take note Keith, this is a general discussion of kingship and I hardly desire for you to read up on my campaign. Thank you for all of your information regarding the Eldeen Reaches and that actually livens things up considerably so for my campaign. If you don't mind, I'll explain my interpretation a bit better. My take on the people of the Eldeen Reaches are the fact that they're sort of blindsided settlers whom essentially came to the land because of their desire to escape from Gallifar's more civilized regions. Essentially, they are in my game primarily Aundairians but the more south you go the more you find their descendents are Brelish. As bizarre as it may sound, there's even pockets of Cyreans and Karrn descended individuals whom wanted to go to the Frontier like New Yorkers going West. The majority of these people became 'acclimated' to their climate rather than taming it like Appalachia to an extent rather than the Old West. Mostly because of large scale industrial aspects of the region and they absorbed large amounts of the local Orcish and Goblin culture, which was by then mostly rural human. Brelan has essentially learned well enough to leave well enough alone with the Eldeen Reaches and there's an almost friendly relationship with the two with the border between Breland essentially being much as you describe envisioning Aundair. It's actually somewhat indistinct with the Border Folk practically identical in outlook to the average Reacher on the Brelish border. They just have close enough ties to Breland to pay the tax man and recieve steady news, tools, etc from the interior of the country. I got this idea from the Dragonshard you did up about the Shadows of the Forest (I believe that's who they were) My take on the issue with the Aundairians is based upon essentially there being a serious 'culture clash' between the two. It's not actually "English versus Scotland" as I may have exagerrated but oddly more Saxon versus Norman like in Ivanhoe. My take on the conflict is that there's actually not entirely a perfect relationship between the Reaches populous with some of the more 'civilized' Aundarian descended ones not entirely loyal to the Druid ways. In no small part because Queen Aurala tries to use the carrot as well as the stick. She also has done plenty of things that's designed to make the more central Reachers look like crazed weirdoes as opposed to normal people. To this end, the Church of the Sovereign Host is also a bit of a problem in the region as well. While most Reachers have a very Celtic interpretation of it in our games and have no problem, Aurala is trying (without much luck) to create a Druid vs. Host conflict. The "Summertime War" actually isn't a border conflict but something that occurs much more centrally and is the result of Aurala's (in my campaign the slightly dimmer) Five Nations Lord Darro ir'Lain is the real problem. Queen Aurala is a combination of Elizabeth and Eleanor of Aquitane. She's a political genius and left to her own devices might at the very least lead to a reconcilliation of the Northern Territories with Aundair without firing a shot. Lord Darro on the other hand, is sharp but not quite as sharp and you can set your watch by his bands of unliscensed non-House Deneith mercenary activities in the region. GIven the man commands 1/3rd of Aundair's resources, this is a LOT of horrors he's unleashed by people whom don't know much in the way of subtlely. As First Warlord of the realm, Lord Darro ultimately is most devoted to finding out Oalian's location and destroying it while hopefully also eventually getting enough support for his retaking it (and his self-stated Apocalyptical event in the Five Nations). To that end, he's willing to use Eldeen Reaches atrocities that occur as retalliation for his actions as justification to support his cause. Aurala knows this in my games but its just one more balancing act. If Darro dies then a lot of the problems in the Reaches will evaporate but whether ti'd push the Northern towards becoming fully Aundarian or whether the exposure will firmly plant them against Aundair I couldn't say. But yes, the most likely outcome is a fairly brutal civil war in the near time future with Aundair Eldeens aiding Aundair while Centralized and Southern against Aundair and it won't be pretty with families devided and war crimes on both sides. Frankly, the Ashbound rightly scare any Eldeen that wants to be slightly more 'civilized.' If you see any flaws or things you'd have done far differently, I'd appreciate your excellent political opinion. Re: Why Eldeen Reaches needs a King My thought was merely that the main problem is that the Eldeen Reaches aren't so much as a nation as a people (with the exception of a lot of Aundarians). There's headmen of villages and clannish blood ties with a shared religion. They're very good fighters and very good at holding off the Aundarians. However, not so much at directly engaging the Aundarians. It's mostly a case of the Aundarians giving up and going home. While an effective strategy usually, the Aundarians have fought a 100 year war for Galifar and frankly aren't inclined to leave alone the Reaches any longer than that. Darro alone is giving them hell in my games, a concentrated effort could leave the place wracked worse than Vietnam and they'd have plenty of resources not as bad off as the Last War to press their advantage.
Charles Phipps 08-26-06, 03:48 AM	I guess the only issue from there is, what do Medani do when they figure out what Lyrandar is up to? It's a question if they actually DON'T ALREADY KNOW. The Valenar I imagine look at the Lyrander as essentially kept half-breeds and able to handle things they don't want to handle but I suspect they're treated about as badly as the Greeks were under the Romans. "You're like us in a lot of ways and we trust you with administration but you're not LIKE us." That depends if we're just talking about "half-elves"... or long-established Khoravar families with their own agendas, such as House Lyrandar. To my mind, what House Lyrandar sees in Valenar is a chance to build what amounts to a corporate state with an army of highly skilled elves-with-a-death-wish, just waiting to be unleashed on the enemies of the house. A human coming along and wanting to be a traditional old-school king... and to kick the Valenar out on top of it... doesn't have much to offer. I'm seeing Valenar as the future Planet Starbucks - a place for Lyrandar to build its power outside of the Five Nations, while allowing the Valenar to draw attention away from what they are doing. But that's me. True, then they might support a half-elf or Khovaire whom wants to overthrow the Kingdom. ;-) The Valenar can't really be much of something the Lyrander can deal with on a basis. They have no use for much trade, no use for civilization, and no use for the Dragonmarked Houses system so long as it gets them food for their horses. They're pretty much Mongols or Huns and its only been an eyeblink since they won their war in Elven minds. I can imagine the Lyrander know the whole things going to crash at any time when one of the rulers just says "Screw this" and invades Q'barra or Karrnath for the hell of it. Good point on Droam BTW. I'd defend that the Hags are just a little cracked by Monster standards in my game. The monsters have never been particularly inclined to become Monsters on the outside but humans on the inside but essentially were humoring the hags in our games but I think I'll switch to your interpretation anyway.
The Dreaming Duck 08-26-06, 03:54 AM	Again, this... is born solely from my take on them from the book. My interpretation of the Hags has always been that they have never been... Particularly mysterious "While Katra's Charisma is undeniable, the long-term plans of the green hag and her sisters remain a mystery." (ECS p. 164) "Teraza is always cryptic... some say she is mad, and this may be true - or she may be playing an elaborate game, using all of Khorvaire as the playing field." (ECS p. 164) particularly powerful "... the arrival of a trio of powerful hags, the Daughters of Sora Kell... These crones were already legends." (ECS p. 164... not to mention the fact that even without the power boost from the Dragonshard, they're CR 16-18 just as is!) Particularly villainous; Particularly heinous To me, the Daughters are the stuff of folklore and faerie tale; they possess the power to aid or hinder... (I'm not sure you two are actually in disagreement here!) Obviously you can do whatever you wish... I'm just noting that while Hellcow did make the Daughters more intimidating and dangerous in the Dragonshard, I think they were presented as powerful and mysterious in the ECS. My view of the Hags of Sora Kell was more akin to the fact that they are individuals whom suffered a rather titanic miscarriage of birth. In this case, that they were born to be hags. That certainly does change everything. But were you really led to this view by your reading of the ECS? Or did you just prefer it to the ECS (which is certainly a valid answer)? By page 164, the hags had spent centuries pursuing their own paths before coming together to form Droaam - and it was Teraza who brought them together for this purpose, following her own mysterious agenda. I'm not trying to criticize your choice. It's your game, and you're doing something creative with it. I'm just curious about the statement that you came to this position by reading the ECS. (And what can I say, I like the scary and mysterious hags!)
Charles Phipps 08-26-06, 04:28 AM	My take on it was primarily motivated by Keith's depiction of sympathetic monsters and the Hags as desiring recognition as a nations of Thronehold. My take on them is also relative. While powerful (the mysterious part I must have glossed over), this was by relativity. I saw three hags and essentially compared them to typical monsters and saw their rule as surprisingly tenuous and that an Ogre mage or powerful chieftain could take over from them or destroy their alliance. From that, the stories sort of wrote themselves. Then again, I was also influenced by the idea of Hags as tragic figures from non-Eberron Van Ritchen's Guide to Witches.
Hellcow 08-26-06, 04:42 AM	The Valenar can't really be much of something the Lyrander can deal with on a basis. Actually, check page 211 of the ECS. It's not as established as what I've described, because what I'm describing is what I see as Lyrandar's long-term goals. But even in the ECS, Lyrandar is described as holding land and performing administrative tasks within the nation. There's a number of factors here. What the Valenar want is a support network for their military efforts. They aren't a primitive culture; they use high-grade metal weapons and armor, they have wizards (meaning spellbooks and scrolls), and they appreciate the presence of smiths, magewrights, and the like to provide them with gear. Furthermore, they need someone to oversee the HUMAN population, which the Valenar have no interest in doing... someone to keep the human commoners content and keep the nation going. As a business, Lyrandar is quite capable of keeping things running. With the Mark of Storm, they can raise the productivity of their farmers (helping to raise the morale of the humans). And one thing Khoravar excel at is Diplomacy - a gift that helps them both to win over the commoners and to convince the Valenar that everything is going great. The point in my mind is that the Lyrandar aren't remotely equal to the Valenar on the field of battle... but that the Lyrandar diplomats are remarkably clever manipulators. They know how to flatter the elves, how to toady when needed, how to make a tempting offer. The Valenar don't NEED the half-elves, but their presence is a convenience; and now, as the Khoravar draw more and more of their kind to the nation, their influence grows. If the Valenar really cared about the long-term future of their kingdom, this might be a concern; again, 15% of the population is now Khoravar. But ultimately, that's not their concern. The Valenar don't see the Khoravar as equals, certainly. But their goals aren't mutually exclusive. The Valenar don't really want control of territory. They don't have the numbers to hold the land they have against one of the Five Nations, let alone to conquer another nation. I still believe that they are waiting for another nation to attack THEM, because that's how they can truly emulate their ancestors. The elves of Xen'drik weren't conquerors; they were guerillas battling a mighty foe. So the Valenar don't want to make a fullscale assault into Karrnath, which puts them at a disadvantage in unfamiliar territory; they want Karrnath to come to them (hence the raids). If the half-elves keep the infrastructure going, it frees the Tairnadal up to prepare for war, harass Darguun and Karrnath, etc. In some ways, it's a race. The Valenar are intentionally provoking the other nations, because ultimately they want an invasion... but they aren't in a hurry, because hey, they're elves. Meanwhile, the Khoravar DO want to maintain Valenar as a kingdom. Everything I'm saying about the Khoravar is a long-term plan - it's what they WANT it to be, not what it is. But if Karrnath attacks next year, everything falls apart. As for Medani, it's a good question... and Medani isn't the only one. The point is that many within the Dragonmarked Houses feel that it's time for the houses to take a more dominant position on the international stage, and to finally move beyond the restrictions Galifar imposed so long ago. Far from the Five Nations, Valenar is a place where the Dragonmarked Houses could build up the forces they've been denied by the Korth Edicts. So yes, if you wanted to take a different path, perhaps Deneith, Cannith, and Vadalis would back a claim to seize Valenar... provided the "King" is willing to be a puppet for the houses! (Personally, though, I think they'd just as soon abandon the monarchy.) Bear in mind that this ISN'T canon, and it isn't the state of things right now; it's simply a possibility, one path things might take. Good point on Droam BTW. Thanks. Having spent far more time than I have posting today, I need to get back to work - but I'll be curious to see what else comes up on the thread.
The Dreaming Duck 08-26-06, 04:48 AM	Then again, I was also influenced by the idea of Hags as tragic figures from non-Eberron Van Ritchen's Guide to Witches. Fair enough! Just curious.
Charles Phipps 08-26-06, 06:08 AM	I'm currently trying to get a stable idea of the Eldeen Reaches' political climate at this point. Hellcow has helped but nothing yet has been established. He has clarified the main points of contention are with Aundair as the "Old Country" and Oalian whom is their new protector. How loyal are the Eldeen to Oalian though? Is it possible that with the removal of the Great War as a seeming danger that some might be willing to negotiate a return to their homeland? At least enough for a concentrated movement or group to consider such an action? How devoted IS the First Warlord of Aundair to seeing the reconquest of the Eldeen Reaches and what method does he choose to use in this request? What other political factions might be powerful forces and persuaded inbetween these two groups? And can Droam or Breland throw their lot in?
maollelujah 08-26-06, 09:25 AM	How loyal are the Eldeen to Oalian though? Is it possible that with the removal of the Great War as a seeming danger that some might be willing to negotiate a return to their homeland? At least enough for a concentrated movement or group to consider such an action? I believe those who turly wanted to return to Aundair already have. They fled years ago. Those remaining are probably content with the ideal of self-governance. Oalian and the druids have brought at least prosperity and safety to the Woods. Throw in the fact that Western Aundair was most likely a marginalized segment of the Kingdom of Aundair, looked down upon by the court as backwater men in don't see the population on a whole anxious to hoist the banners of a new King, Aundarian or otherwise. But still, there is surely a fragment of the population that is in kahoots with the Royal Eyes of Aundair and the esteemed 1st/2nd Warlord. They act as information gatherers, assist in sabotage, and drumming up support for the return to Aundair. How devoted IS the First Warlord of Aundair to seeing the reconquest of the Eldeen Reaches and what method does he choose to use in this request? I don't know how anxious the First Warlord is to reconquer the Eldeen Reaches, I always thought he was more happy to take back Thaliost (but I might have the 1st and 2nd warlord's goals mixed up.) I think he believes that any foray into the Eldeen Reaches only weakens Aundair as the enemy melts away to attack you when you are at your weakest. It is possible for him to think that the Eldeen Reaches are beneficial to the Aundair. Their blindside is protected by a non-aggressive nation and they really don't have to be worried about a Druidic sneak attack, which allows him to concentrate on Thrane. Also if a new King's banner was raised in the Eldeen Reaches, I don't think Aundair would be happy. For other powerful groups in the Eldeen Reaches, House Vadalis is certainly a major player. I am sure they've enjoyed the relaxed nature of the Druid rule. They seem pretty much a state within a state, as they control villages, towns and a city pretty much. The small minority that wants to return to the Eldeen Reaches is another. But if your PC's character has connections to the Eldeen Reaches, I think this is one place his unfortunate status wouldn't effect him as much as in other. But how to convince others that making him King would be in their best interests. (Now if he all the sudden manifested a Siberys dragonmark from House Vadalis...) The only way I can see someone outside the Royal Family becoming King/Queen, is for there to be a major destructive war that fractured the 5 Nations into smaller pieces, that someone could pick up.
Hellcow 08-26-06, 02:15 PM	I'm currently trying to get a stable idea of the Eldeen Reaches' political climate at this point. Hellcow has helped but nothing yet has been established. Well, I'll post one more message, then. As always, you can take things in an entirely different direction, but here's what I was thinking when I wrote up the Eldeen section in the ECS. He has clarified the main points of contention are with Aundair as the "Old Country" and Oalian whom is their new protector. How loyal are the Eldeen to Oalian though? Is it possible that with the removal of the Great War as a seeming danger that some might be willing to negotiate a return to their homeland? To work backwards... In my mind, the Last War hasn't been "removed as a danger". It's only been over for two years, and no one won; the only thing holding it at bay is the Mourning. This is why it's relevant that Kaius is trying to be a force for peace - because really, peace has yet to be acheived. The people of Aundair are just waiting to snatch Thaliost back from Thrane, or to take vengeance for Shadukar. The Thranes are poised to fight Karrnath once more. The WAR has stopped, but it's not as if people have magically set aside all of their hostile feelings for the neighbors they've been fighting for the last century. The only thing that stopped the war was the absolute destruction of Cyre, and the only reason that stopped it is because people are afraid to fight until they know that it won't happen again. As I said before, in my opinion this is the only reason Karrnath HASN'T moved against the Valenar: because it's far more concerned about Thrane, and knows that it can't afford to divert a significant chunk of its military to such an extended campaign when Thrane could strike again at any moment. The Last War is on hold... but only the more optimistic believe it's over. Now, the reason the contested lands (the farmlands between the Towering Woods and the Wynarn River) seceded in the first place was because the Aundairian crown abandoned them during the war, leaving them to fend for themselves against bandits and (this won't help your PC, I'm afraid) Brelish soldiers. In their hour of need, the Wardens of the Wood emerged to defend them, defeating their enemies. At this point, they said "The crown, who we have served faithfully with our hearts and our taxes, left us to die. This Great Druid has defended us and asked for nothing in return. He deserves our loyalty. The crown abandoned these lands; it no longer deserves dominion over us." Certainly, there were those who disagreed with this, but as has been suggested, most would have fled east long ago; this was almost 50 years ago. In the interim, Aundair did attempt to take the region back by force. I'll note that in my opinion, they'd have sought to minimize casualties in these battles - still, they did seek to reclaim the land, and were repelled by the alliance of the farmers and the Wardens. However, the Wardens have never sought to push across the Wynarn River; they are interested in defense, not aggression. So first, Oalian and the Wardens have served to protect the land (multiple times over the last fifty years). But beyond that, the Wardens have also sought to increase the prosperity of the land, using druidic magic to increase harvest and fertility. Most villages have a druidic advisor, and most of the people of the Reaches have turned to the worship of the druidic traditions. The Wardens do not persecute followers of other religions, or even actively encourage them to change their faith; there are followers of the Sovereigns and Flame in the region. But most people have turned to the new faith both because of what the Wardens have done for them, and because of the direct aid provided by the druidic advisors. So, in terms of going back to Aundair, after fifty years, the bulk of the human population was born either after the change or grew to adulthood during it. They were raised on tales of the callous greed of Aundair, know those who fought Aundair during the times it sought to reclaim the land, and furthermore, most were raised in the druidic religion. So it's not a simple "There's no more war - let's go back." Anyone under forty-five has no memory of ever being part of Aundair, and given the tales they know, would see no reason to return to this nation... which would surely abandon them again as soon as the struggle with Thrane began anew. You say "a return to their homeland." The point is that to the people of the Reaches, Aundair isn't their homeland. The land they occupy is their homeland; the question is who deserves their loyalty. And most Eldeens have been raised on tales of the selfish and arrogant Aundair royals... while the druids are helping improve the harvest. So IMO, a voluntary return to Aundairian rule is very unlikely. How devoted IS the First Warlord of Aundair to seeing the reconquest of the Eldeen Reaches and what method does he choose to use in this request? By The Five Nations, the reconquest is something Darro has been "planning". He's described as "surreptitiously hiring bands of adventurers to go into the Reaches to reconnoiter and disrupt Eldeen activities." He's not using Aundarian forces, or military forces at all... in part, because if you turn to page 21 of T5N, Aundair still occasionally sends diplomatic missions to the Reaches. Darro likes the idea of reconquering the Reaches, but it's something that (by the books) he's moving towards slowly; he's working towards it, but he's patient. Again, the past efforts by Aundair to conquer the Reaches have simply strengthened the loyalty of the people to the Wardens; he needs to consider ways to get around that. (Note also that by T5N, Darro realizes that his people would rather fight Thrane than the Reaches... again, fighting the Reaches is closer to an ugly civil war than fighting Thrane, who we know will attack us soon if we don't act first!) This then returns to the actions of the Royal Eyes, who are also engaged in stirring up unrest. Hence my suggestion that they might seek to frame the Children of Winter, Ashbound, etc... all forces of the Reaches that ARE potentially dangerous. So rather than throwing an arcane curse on the land which Oalian could counter, becoming even more of a hero to the people, they might start spreading contagion through villages and spread the rumor that it's the work of the Children of Winter. The diseases can be cured, but that won't change people's suspicions of the dark druids of the Towering Woods. If Aundair fakes an Ashbound attack (albeit more deadly than the Ashbound would act), people may again question why they are trusting forces that also protect these dangerous fanatics. My issue with roving bands of mercenaries causing trouble is that this is EXACTLY the situation that caused the Wardens of the Wood to emerge in the first place in the defense of the farmers. If there's that much danger, i would expect a full-scale defense by an army of rangers and druids - because it's that defense in the past that created the Reaches in the first place. The Wardens of the Wood don't want to act in an aggressive manner against Aundair itself; but they are serious about defending the Reaches. The Wardens are the most unifed and disciplined force among the sects, and have in the past organized the commonfolk against threats. Hence, if you truly have such open conflict, I'd expect there to BE squads of rangers tracking down the mercenaries, etc. It was this willingness of the Wardens to defend the people that created the Eldeen Reaches; if the people are in danger, I'd wonder why the Wardens aren't already doing something about it. This also comes to the issue of "Why a king?"... specifically, because the people of the Reaches have been here before. The Wardens drove bandits and Brels from the land. They rallied the people to repel Aundairan assaults. But throughout this, they never made one of the commanders of the Wardens their king. If anything, the people are likely soured against royals because it was the Aundairian crown that abandoned them. Bear in mind that the Eldeen Reaches ARE considered a nation under the Treaty of Thronehold, and are usually represented diplomatically by Wardens acting in Oalian's name; while it's a very loosely structure nation, it does have a leader in Oalian. That's why I'm suggesting that to really gain the support of the people, I'd see a king as needing the support of Oalian. It's the Great Druid who stood up for them when the royals abandoned them. It's the Great Druid who has always sent rangers to protect them. If Oalian says that this man is a worthy king, that's a big deal; if Oalian were to oppose him, it would be a hard road. Now, you sound like you've taken a very different path. My question for you to consider is why the Wardens of the Wood aren't doing more already. Again, the Wardens are the reason the nation exists in the first place, and the reason it's been able to resist Aundairian attacks in the past, matching natural magic against the arcane might of Aundair. Those conflicts haven't simply been mundane - war never is in Eberron, especially where Aundair is involved. You've had wizard against druid, knight phantom against ranger. The significant druidic power within the Reaches is what has enabled the smaller nation to maintain its independence; it doesn't have an army remotely matching any of the Five Nations in terms of size, organization, resources... but it has a high number of rangers and natural magic wielders. Like the Valenar, it's a question of a small force, but a high level of magic/PC class individuals who can make a conflict versus typical forces a very costly one. What other political factions might be powerful forces and persuaded inbetween these two groups? The Lords of Dust, of course. They may already be involved on one side or the other... or both. Perhaps a "Merlin" figure will arrive to help your PC attain his destined kingship... only to be revealed to be a LoD (whether rakshasa or human agent) later. The Dreaming Dark, because conflict in Khorvaire is always a good thing. The Aurum; an Aurum concordian might want to regain an old estate, or could be interested in gaining lumber rights in the Towering Woods. Thrane or Karrnath; helping establish a stronger Eldeen Reaches weakens Aundair, and again, the Last War isn't over - it's just on hold. House Vadalis. The House has a good relationship with the Wardens, but has clashed frequently with the Ashbound. If a would-be king promised to deal with the Ashbound under his reign, he could likely gain the support of the house. And can Droam or Breland throw their lot in? With which side? Given that one of the factors in the creation of the modern Reaches was war with Breland, the Reachers aren't going to be terribly keen to have Brelish soldiers returning. Furthermore, at the moment Breland and Aundair are allies, and Breland acting openly in support of the Reaches would be a terrible violation of that trust. Now, if you mean Breland aiding Aundair in reclaiming the Reaches? Sure. The only question there is whether Aundair would want the help, since it makes them look weak and gives Breland influence in their territory. As for Droaam? I think it would be interesting to see Droaam come to the aid of the Reaches, actually.
Ellorin 08-26-06, 03:47 PM	Xen'drick: A nation practically built for Cortez style conquest and native alliances for rulership. My suggestion might be plain foolish, but how about Stormreach itself? After making a good name and slowly get the trust of most power players of the city, you avert a crisis or create and avert a crisis that threatens its independence or very existence. Then, you form an organization sworn to "protect the city of every outsider threat". When the second totally accidental crisis(preferrably caused by Khorvairian agents, at least in part) comes, "the dire threat and your zeal to serve the public requires that you take command of the city( no matter what, make the dragonmaked houses feel secure by the new order. You direly need their support.) and proclaim the birth of a new nation. A crusade against distrusted neighbours ( drow or giants) and pirate groups who "threaten our beloved Stormreach" might help to solidify your rule. Now it's time to act like Cortez.
Hellcow 08-26-06, 04:34 PM	I wanted to make one final post about my view the Daughters of Sora Kell. There are many influences that tie into the Daughters, from the Fates to the Furies. However, one of the strongest influences that goes into my vision of the Daughters is Baba Yaga. In Slavic folklore, Baba Yaga is a figure of great power who can be a source of terror and horror. But she can also be a vital ally of heroes brave enough to seek her aid... though her assistance can be as dangerous as her emnity. There are dozens of tales about her, and many tales contradict one another. She may be killed in one tale, only to be hale and hearty in another. Just like Baba Yaga in Eastern Europe, each of the hags is supposed to be a figure of folklore in the lands they once roamed. By page 164 of the ECS, "The green hag Sora Kell had haunted the Shadow Marches for generations, while the annis Sora Maenya had terrorized the Eldeen Reaches..." Essentially, if you grew up in the Shadow Marches, you should have been raised on tales of doomed heroes who tried to match wits with the Old Woman of the Swamps (and the few who succeeded!), while if you were born in the Towering Woods you knew that Sora Maenya would come to eat disobedient children, and heard tell of her devouring entire tribes of shifters to satisfy her insatiable hunger. When the ECS says "the hags were already legends", it means just that - legends, the stuff of song and story. For them to sudden lay claim to a country would be something like Darth Vader, Hannibal Lecter, and Lex Luthor suddenly appearing and creating a nation in Death Valley. We've all heard stories, but many people would say "You mean those stories are REAL?" And for people who grew up in the west, it would be doubly frightening... these are the monsters your mother used to frighten you into doing your chores, and now they have a kingdom of trolls and harpies! And the big question is why? Why, after centuries of lurking in forest and swamp, have they decided to claim a nation? Only Sora Teraza knows the answer to that... With that said, the point is that I STILL see the Daughters as playing the role of Baba Yaga: mysterious, frightening, but still a possible ally for the hero bold enough to seek their aid. They aren't desperate for anything. They have wisdom beyond any human king, and through Teraza, knowledge of the future itself (though she may keep her knowledge to herself!). To me, Droaam is mysterious - a land of cultures unlike any human nation, ruled by enigmatic beings who have stepped out of legends and whose motives are anything but clear. So, that's MY take on them. Of course, YOU are free to do something entirely different. ;)
Charles Phipps 08-26-06, 05:38 PM	My issue with roving bands of mercenaries causing trouble is that this is EXACTLY the situation that caused the Wardens of the Wood to emerge in the first place in the defense of the farmers. If there's that much danger, i would expect a full-scale defense by an army of rangers and druids - because it's that defense in the past that created the Reaches in the first place. The Wardens of the Wood don't want to act in an aggressive manner against Aundair itself; but they are serious about defending the Reaches. The Wardens are the most unifed and disciplined force among the sects, and have in the past organized the commonfolk against threats. Hence, if you truly have such open conflict, I'd expect there to BE squads of rangers tracking down the mercenaries, etc. It was this willingness of the Wardens to defend the people that created the Eldeen Reaches; if the people are in danger, I'd wonder why the Wardens aren't already doing something about it. Thanks, my take on the matter is that there are Rangers and other groups eventually tracking them down before delivering swift and brutal vengeance. The final result is that then Darro has his agents look for some more out of work veterans of the Last War to go to the Eldeen Reaches to raise Hell. This is probably portraying Darro as more of a villain than really he might be but I suspect he's not trying to be sadistic here but simply attempting to weedle down the power of the enemies. If he can show the Wardens to be ineffective by turning them into a reactive force then he might be able to break the trust of the people for them. It's rather twisted logic I admit though and would have to be born from making him the clear antagonist in a story. At your suggestion, I may rule that the Lords of Dust are more interested in stirring up trouble in the region...possibly as an excuse to try and track down the last remnants of the Gatekeepers sect in the resulting war. It might be terribly interesting if the "Summertime War" I'm describing is actually them trying to raise hell and Aundair just dismisses it as Last War veterans committing crimes in a 'lawless' (by comparison) region. This also comes to the issue of "Why a king?"... specifically, because the people of the Reaches have been here before. The Wardens drove bandits and Brels from the land. They rallied the people to repel Aundairan assaults. But throughout this, they never made one of the commanders of the Wardens their king. If anything, the people are likely soured against royals because it was the Aundairian crown that abandoned them. Bear in mind that the Eldeen Reaches ARE considered a nation under the Treaty of Thronehold, and are usually represented diplomatically by Wardens acting in Oalian's name; while it's a very loosely structure nation, it does have a leader in Oalian. That's why I'm suggesting that to really gain the support of the people, I'd see a king as needing the support of Oalian. It's the Great Druid who stood up for them when the royals abandoned them. It's the Great Druid who has always sent rangers to protect them. If Oalian says that this man is a worthy king, that's a big deal; if Oalian were to oppose him, it would be a hard road. What I'm noticing is the implication that things are getting along just fine with the Grand King and Oalian handling business without a king. Therefore, the biggest thing to do in this aspect is (should I want to have set up a campaign for achieving kingship in a region) the first thing to do is off Oalian or at the very least make it so the Great Tree is taken out of play. It might be a bit cliche (or archetypical if you prefer) that the plot of Darro or the LoD is based on the idea of poisoning the old Treant in order to try and decapitate the leadership of the woods. It might be noteworthy the bard character could be named by the Treant as heir or someone else depending on my mood. It'd certainly be a devastating and demoralizing blow to the region and might have cataclysimic mystical affects. Given all this talk about the Hags of Sora Kell, I'm inclined to actually use the Macbeth business where the players are invited by the Hags for a meeting (they shouldn't ignore) and told to go there because of the coming troubles about to occur. From there I might play it by ear with Oalian NOT naming the PC his successor but the Hags moving the character into position but I'm not sure I want to go that route.
Just another user 08-26-06, 05:53 PM	There is always the old "save the princess and marry her" plot. basically if he save the nation from some big disaster (and I mean "unleashed raja" level)would not be implausible that the king accept let him marry his daughter, being of noble blood, even if illegitimate, could be an advantage
Hellcow 08-26-06, 06:27 PM	If he can show the Wardens to be ineffective by turning them into a reactive force then he might be able to break the trust of the people for them. Agreed. I'm just saying that the initial actions of the Wardens that won them the loyalty of the people included defending the region against roving groups of bandits; essentially, that this sort of thing is something they're quite good at, if they put their mind to it. If you think about it, a significant force of rangers - with tracking, keen Spot/Listen, good stealth skills, and animal companions at higher levels - will have a considerably easier time with this sort of work than a traditional army of fighters and warriors bound to fortresses. If the attacks are sporadic... an occasional burst, falsely attributed to Ashbound, bandits, or Children of Winter... the Wardens may not take coordinated action. I'm just saying that if you're talking about a serious, frequent series of attacks and massacres, that's what the Wardens fought originally, and I think you would see coordinated, organized resistance as you did fifty years ago. At your suggestion, I may rule that the Lords of Dust are more interested in stirring up trouble in the region...possibly as an excuse to try and track down the last remnants of the Gatekeepers sect in the resulting war. Remember that the Lords of Dust are not a monolithic organization. What you'd most likely be dealing with is the prakhutu of one of the Overlords, with his supporting servants. It could be going after the Gatekeepers, or it could be that your PC becoming king of the Reaches is the prophesized event that will result in the release of the Overlord... which would certainly give him an exciting challenge to kick off his rule! Therefore, the biggest thing to do in this aspect is (should I want to have set up a campaign for achieving kingship in a region) the first thing to do is off Oalian or at the very least make it so the Great Tree is taken out of play. Yes, that would certainly destabilize the region. Among other things, the mutual respect for the Great Druid is the primary thing than maintains the peace between the druid sects themselves. It's possible that if Oalian falls, you might see open violence between some of the sects - especially if one of the sects blames another for the event. The death of Oalian would also be something that sets a good precedent for the release of one of the Overlords, since it's a powerful force of positive magic being removed from the world. This is certainly a sensible path to take if you want your king to be the true authority in the region... but initially he'd have some serious chaos to deal with. Unless, of course, Oalian for some reason invests him with authority that groups like the Ashbound and Children of Winter (neither of whom have any real respect for the social conventions of civilization) would respect, before he dies. Frankly, I don't think Darro would have the ability to pull it off. Oalian is one of the most powerful beings in the setting; he's located in a holy area far from Aundair; and he's surrounded by loyal followers. However, the Lords of Dust are another matter, being equally powerful, exceptionally sly, and having access to the sort of ancient magic that can break the rules if it has to. One of the LoD could aid Darro in this. Although, if you wanted to be poignant about it, you could somehow get the LoD to trick your PLAYER into being (unintentionally) responsible for Oalian's death... and yet, Oalian still names him as his successor, saying that the fate of the Reaches is in his hands! Given all this talk about the Hags of Sora Kell, I'm inclined to actually use the Macbeth business where the players are invited by the Hags for a meeting (they shouldn't ignore) and told to go there because of the coming troubles about to occur. This is exactly the sort of thing I'd do with the Daughters: have them tell the character about his destiny and set him on the path towards kingship. The PCs may rightly wonder what the Daughters get out of this. Sora Teraza claims that she is simply the voice of fate, and perhaps she speaks the truth... or perhaps the fate of the Reaches plays into the plans of the Daughters. If the PCs' adventures in the Reaches result in the death of Oalian, one can certainly ask "Would we have gone to the Reaches if the hags hadn't told us to? Did they set this in motion... are THEY responsible for Oalian's death?" It's like the Oracle from The Matrix - "Would you still have knocked it over if I hadn't said anything?"
Charles Phipps 08-26-06, 10:15 PM	Re: Xendrick I think the main issue with Xen'drick is really the question of whether or not anyone really wants to come to the new kingdom and whom is willing to be involved in the land. Unlike Europe, Khovaire is still a largely underpopulated land with plenty of new farmland and territory for people to travel to so there's not going to be a "land boom." Plus, the local natives are unlikely to be particularly cooperate in forming alliances like Cortez was able to find I think. Though I do occasionally consider a secret slave trade in Drow (for whatever purpose these slaves might be put to use in) could occur. Re: Daughters of Sora Kell I admit that part of my use for the Daughters of Sora Kell is actually based less on Baba Yaga than Louhi. While the Kalevala is better known through its derivitive works like the Lord of the Rings, I always enjoyed the fact that Louhi had several beautiful daughters that existed to be won as prizes. While it's now much better to do with other hags, I always thought the players might enjoy looking beyond appearances (especially with the benefits of their magic). I always intended to have Sora Kell come back as well herself in an interesting "Oh crap, Cthulhu meets Baba Yaga has returned" scenario. Re: Eldeen Reaches Thanks again Hellcow, for your many insights into the situation of the region. I must confess I'm surprised to see that Breland would be an ally of Aundair in the Eldeen Reaches situation. One would think that it would have been Breland whom would have been the first person to recognize Eldeen Reaches independence. I can't imagine how they were able to achieve independence without Breland supporting removing a portion of their Northern Neighbors' territory. Maybe I'm simplifying Khovaire politics too much though. Agreed. I'm just saying that the initial actions of the Wardens that won them the loyalty of the people included defending the region against roving groups of bandits; essentially, that this sort of thing is something they're quite good at, if they put their mind to it. If you think about it, a significant force of rangers - with tracking, keen Spot/Listen, good stealth skills, and animal companions at higher levels - will have a considerably easier time with this sort of work than a traditional army of fighters and warriors bound to fortresses. If the attacks are sporadic... an occasional burst, falsely attributed to Ashbound, bandits, or Children of Winter... the Wardens may not take coordinated action. I'm just saying that if you're talking about a serious, frequent series of attacks and massacres, that's what the Wardens fought originally, and I think you would see coordinated, organized resistance as you did fifty years ago. True enough, I guess that fostering a "siege mentality" is the last thing that Lord Darro wishes to do. Definitely working to make sure that the various factions of the Druids are divided against one another and the various lords turn against one another would be what he'd like to do. Also, making them appear to be ineffective as mentioned above. The big problem is Oalian of course and the fact that the Druids are respected enough that this seems like it'd be titanically difficult to do. Thus, its easier to simply destroy and send in new people when they finally die off. Remember that the Lords of Dust are not a monolithic organization. What you'd most likely be dealing with is the prakhutu of one of the Overlords, with his supporting servants. It could be going after the Gatekeepers, or it could be that your PC becoming king of the Reaches is the prophesized event that will result in the release of the Overlord... which would certainly give him an exciting challenge to kick off his rule! True enough, I always secretly suspected that the Lords of Dust don't actually have a real clue about how to release their masters very well. They're mostly flying blind. I also figured that they aren't necessarily focused on that goal alone either since I'm sure at least some don't necessarily want to return to servitude. Am I wrong in thinking the Lords of Dust have also suceeded in releasing plenty of their members, its just the REALLY POWERFUL ones that they haven't released? (probably because these were bound the most tightly) Yes, that would certainly destabilize the region. Among other things, the mutual respect for the Great Druid is the primary thing than maintains the peace between the druid sects themselves. It's possible that if Oalian falls, you might see open violence between some of the sects - especially if one of the sects blames another for the event. The death of Oalian would also be something that sets a good precedent for the release of one of the Overlords, since it's a powerful force of positive magic being removed from the world. This is certainly a sensible path to take if you want your king to be the true authority in the region... but initially he'd have some serious chaos to deal with. Unless, of course, Oalian for some reason invests him with authority that groups like the Ashbound and Children of Winter (neither of whom have any real respect for the social conventions of civilization) would respect, before he dies. I can no doubt that, I also think it might be the best time to launch a full scale invasion of the region as well if I wanted to. I imagine there might be plenty of people in the initial panic whom might cooperate with Aundair than might normally be, though that depends if they can link it back to being the result of Aundair then there'd probably be some undying hatred for the region that even Aurala could never quench. (I imagine even without Oalian the druids could bring down some hefty Seven Plagues of Egypt nastiness on Aundiar) I'm only interested because it occurs to me its very "Eberronish" if the players end up having to protect Both sides from excess Frankly, I don't think Darro would have the ability to pull it off. Oalian is one of the most powerful beings in the setting; he's located in a holy area far from Aundair; and he's surrounded by loyal followers. However, the Lords of Dust are another matter, being equally powerful, exceptionally sly, and having access to the sort of ancient magic that can break the rules if it has to. One of the LoD could aid Darro in this. Although, if you wanted to be poignant about it, you could somehow get the LoD to trick your PLAYER into being (unintentionally) responsible for Oalian's death... and yet, Oalian still names him as his successor, saying that the fate of the Reaches is in his hands! Well it said that Darro is preparing a massive conflaguration of some kind, it might be interesting if what he's planning isn't a magical A-bomb or an equivalent designed to wipe out huge sections of the forrest (because really, there's not much in the way of cities with the Reaches) but instead some kin of massive spell designed to kill Oalian himself. It might be something so inocuous as a Box the Players are sent to deliver ;-) Though again its a simple matter that Darro's own plot might be a shell for the greater Lords of Dust efforts at work in the region as you've said. Honestly, it might be interesting to see people's reaction if Darro thinks he has killed Oalian and everyone's new look at the seeming "power behind the throne." At the very least the Ashbound and Winter children will want his head. This is exactly the sort of thing I'd do with the Daughters: have them tell the character about his destiny and set him on the path towards kingship. The PCs may rightly wonder what the Daughters get out of this. Sora Teraza claims that she is simply the voice of fate, and perhaps she speaks the truth... or perhaps the fate of the Reaches plays into the plans of the Daughters. If the PCs' adventures in the Reaches result in the death of Oalian, one can certainly ask "Would we have gone to the Reaches if the hags hadn't told us to? Did they set this in motion... are THEY responsible for Oalian's death?" It's like the Oracle from The Matrix - "Would you still have knocked it over if I hadn't said anything?" Great quote there Hellcow.
Hellcow 08-27-06, 01:55 AM	I must confess I'm surprised to see that Breland would be an ally of Aundair in the Eldeen Reaches situation. One would think that it would have been Breland whom would have been the first person to recognize Eldeen Reaches independence. I can't imagine how they were able to achieve independence without Breland supporting removing a portion of their Northern Neighbors' territory. Originally, when the Reaches were still part of Aundair, Breland was invading the region and seeking to claim it as its own. Breland occupied a number of cities in the region which the Wardens helped reclaim. The fact that eastern Aundair essentially abandoned the west to its fate was one of the major reasons for the secession to begin with. So Breland didn't support it, because Breland wanted the territory for itself! Today, Breland wouldn't support it because Breland and Aundair are (or at least were) allies... and should the Last War start up again, Aundair is a far more important ally that the Reaches. Many Brels might sympathize with the Reachers, but politics are politics. Thrane would be the most likely supporters, since relations between Thrane and Aundair are poor and Thrane would certainly like to weaken Aundair before the war begins again. But currently, Breland would need to stand by Aundair. In fact, Breland supporting the Reaches is exactly the sort of thing that could trigger the war anew! True enough, I always secretly suspected that the Lords of Dust don't actually have a real clue about how to release their masters very well. They're mostly flying blind. Have you read the article about the Lords of Dust in Dragon #337? Actually, there's an entire library of prophecies about concerning the release of the Overlords; the key is that each one has a different set of circumstances under which it can be released. So the fall of the guardian oak and the rise of the bastard bard of Breland might be just what's needed. I also figured that they aren't necessarily focused on that goal alone either since I'm sure at least some don't necessarily want to return to servitude. The key is not to humanize the LoD. They're immortal spirits; some of them are a hundred thousand years old. They don't view the world as people do. What we see as servitude, they may see as the purpose of existence. With that said, there ARE some that don't want to return to servitude... but what they generally want to do is steal the power of their Overlord and usurp its position in the restored Age of Demons. Am I wrong in thinking the Lords of Dust have also suceeded in releasing plenty of their members, its just the REALLY POWERFUL ones that they haven't released? It's not so much that they've released lesser fiends, as it is that many lesser fiends remained unbound after the initial defeat. Think of the Flame as a vast net that allowed many small fish to slip through. Also, some of the LoD are extraplanar fiends who have fled from their home planes and found refuge on Eberron. In any case, there are about 90 members of the Council of Ashtakala, along with an undetermined number of lesser servitors. But if you haven't read the LoD article, I'd say it's my favorite of the Dragon articles I've done.
Charles Phipps 08-27-06, 03:21 AM	Originally, when the Reaches were still part of Aundair, Breland was invading the region and seeking to claim it as its own. Breland occupied a number of cities in the region which the Wardens helped reclaim. The fact that eastern Aundair essentially abandoned the west to its fate was one of the major reasons for the secession to begin with. So Breland didn't support it, because Breland wanted the territory for itself! Well that changes a good deal of how I envisioned my relations in Eberron towards the Eldeen Reaches and the Brelish lands. Heck, it might even make his heritage a strike against him rather than something that is just there. I was always of the mind that the Brelish would support Eldeen Reaches independence because it would cut in half Aundair (no one can be allies where only one bears the crown). But yes, good points all round. Today, Breland wouldn't support it because Breland and Aundair are (or at least were) allies... and should the Last War start up again, Aundair is a far more important ally that the Reaches. Many Brels might sympathize with the Reachers, but politics are politics. Thrane would be the most likely supporters, since relations between Thrane and Aundair are poor and Thrane would certainly like to weaken Aundair before the war begins again. But currently, Breland would need to stand by Aundair. In fact, Breland supporting the Reaches is exactly the sort of thing that could trigger the war anew! That's an interesting point there and one that definitely should be examined at length. It also makes an alliance between the Droam and Reaches look more profitable, though again...no one can really figure out the Hag's motivations honestly. Have you read the article about the Lords of Dust in Dragon #337? Actually, there's an entire library of prophecies about concerning the release of the Overlords; the key is that each one has a different set of circumstances under which it can be released. So the fall of the guardian oak and the rise of the bastard bard of Breland might be just what's needed. I've read the article actually and just needed a reminder to a certain extent. I liked it very much honestly even though I would have prefered less human seeming Rajahs in my portrayals (i.e. size and shape rather than their alien and maleovolent presences), they worked very well. What I always liked about the Lords of Dust in that portrayal was the odd feeling that they were essentially a gentleman's club of demons. There was no rush to bring about the end of the world but more like sitting back and enjoying their hobby and destroying creation/scholarship of the prophecies. Now this is going to be a trifle odd but I am a bit curious if you might be able to provide me a bit of information here Keith here (and everyone else is welcome to participate in this conversation too. While it has strayed a bit from kingship in general to becoming the Eldeen Reaches thread, I'm interested in all takes). I'm currently interested in some general thoughts about how much force Aundair might be willing to bring to bear against the Reaches. It occurs to me that they might not invade with Oalian's death but it might become a matter of the Reaches trying to invade Aundair (something that would at last bring their enemies into open battle). A defeat there would allow at last Aundair to reclaim the Reaches (though this might require a second Thronehold conference to rewrite things) but if Aundair is defeated by the Reaches....good Lord, that's got to be a blow to the ego at the very least. I doubt they could conquer Aundair but it occurs to me the inferior forces of the reaches might be able to be organized into something that could deal a series of crushing blows to the enemy. I may just be reaching of course in this respect. I'm just trying to figure out suitable fallout and ideas for a Reaches/Aundair conflict (and what would trigger it as opposed to the Cold War that you've described Keith)
Hellcow 08-27-06, 03:30 AM	I liked it very much honestly even though I would have prefered less human seeming Rajahs in my portrayals (i.e. size and shape rather than their alien and maleovolent presences) Are you talking about the rajahs, or the members of the Council of Ashtakala? By the article, the rajahs possess the ability to assume any form between fine to colossal size; as such, they're whatever they (and you) feel like making them at any given time. Sul Khatesh is suggested as being a large humanoid figure in her prefered form, but again, at any given time she could be any shape at all. As for the other question, I don't have time to give you my thoughts at the moment, but I'll try to get back to it when I do. (In retrospect, I suppose you might mean that the fact that rajahs have a size or shape at all is disappointing, even if it's a mutable form. If so, I can see where you're coming from, but completely abstract creatures make difficult opponents. And they are lords of Khyber, not Xoriat or Kythri.)
Charles Phipps 08-27-06, 05:26 AM	As for the other question, I don't have time to give you my thoughts at the moment, but I'll try to get back to it when I do. I'd appreciate it if you find the time. (In retrospect, I suppose you might mean that the fact that rajahs have a size or shape at all is disappointing, even if it's a mutable form. If so, I can see where you're coming from, but completely abstract creatures make difficult opponents. And they are lords of Khyber, not Xoriat or Kythri.) Well it's mostly a case of the fact that they're presented in a human like manner in some respect as their 'default' form. I suppose I simply expected some mammoth monstrous collosal creature that would never think of appearing smaller. but then that's the Old ones expectations I suppose.
Hellcow 08-27-06, 02:39 PM	Well it's mostly a case of the fact that they're presented in a human like manner in some respect as their 'default' form. The key to me is that in my opinion, many of them don't really HAVE a "default form". If you look to the powerful rakshasa of mythology, that's the key; they appear as whatever they want, whenever they want. In my opinion, the only point of a "default form" is one that they can use when interacting with their followers... and their primary followers, the rakshasa, are medium-sized creatures. So my main point is that if Sul Khatesh chooses to interact with her worshipper/servants in Ashtakala, it's easier for her to do so in a large or medium sized form; if she's colossal, she won't fit in their buildings, she's going to step on them all the time, and she'll have trouble even hearing their tiny voices. But if she's interacting with a dragon, she'll absolutely expand to a colossal form. Essentially, she probably likes to be one step (or more) larger than the people she's dealing with, so she can tower over them. But again, the point in my mind is that they have the power to change, and they will use it. They aren't bound to one particular form. but then that's the Old ones expectations I suppose. While the Overlords fill the role of "ancient evil of immense power whose release could destroy civilization" - certainly drawing on an aspect of the Great Old Ones - Xoriat/the Cults of the Dragon Below are more of a source of the alien/insanity aspect of the Cthulhu mythos; that's where you're likely to get creatures whose mere aspect will drive mortals mad. One thing I'll point out there is that the daelkyr aren't by any means the biggest, baddest things in Xoriat; they are simply (and mercifully) the worst things to have come through to our world. But if there's an Azathoth out there, he'd be in Xoriat. Likewise, while the daelkyr are sometimes criticized for having a human form, bear in mind that Nyarlathotep could appear as the Black Pharoah (a man of noble countenance, like the daelkyr)... and just like Nyarlathotep, it's quite likely that the form of the daelkyr known to man is merely one face, and probably the least horrible of their aspects.
Hellcow 08-27-06, 03:34 PM	Now, this really has to be my last post for a while: I have work to do and my own game to prep for. I was always of the mind that the Brelish would support Eldeen Reaches independence because it would cut in half Aundair And my point is that Thrane and Karrnath would both think this a good thing. But Breland has been an ally of Aundair, and with war still looming, there's something to be said for maintaining that alliance... as opposed to breaking that alliance in a dramatic way. Remember that Boranel has his own problems, with the anti-monarchy movement. Setting aside the possibility that supporting the Reaches would actually provoke outright arcane retailiation, if Breland weakens Aundair, Aundair might use its influence to support that anti-monarchy movement, etc. Likewise, Aundair lies between Breland and Thrane; keeping Aundair strong and as an ally protects Breland from Thrane if the war starts anew. Supporting Aundair is a defensive action. It occurs to me that they might not invade with Oalian's death but it might become a matter of the Reaches trying to invade Aundair (something that would at last bring their enemies into open battle). I have a tremendous amount of trouble seeing a meaningful invasion of Aundair coming from the Reaches, for the following reasons: Numbers. Aundair outnumbers the Reaches by a factor of four to one. Furthermore, the vast majority of the people of the Reaches are farmers. Aundair's military forces far outnumber those of the Reaches. The Wardens are skilled, but they simply aren't cut out for occupation; they don't have the numbers or experience with that sort of operation. And while during the defense, the Wardens raised farmer militias, those militias were driven by the fact that they were defending their homesteads. They aren't an organized, disciplined army like that of Aundair, and if you take them away from their homes, you lose their primary drive to morale. If a smaller force of Wardens drove into Aundair and didn't seek to hold ground, simply sweeping about in a wave of destruction, they could be troublesome, except... Doctrine. The primary military strength of the Reaches is the Wardens of the Wood. They are founded on principles of balance and defense. Fighting a defensive war to protect farmers from invaders is perfectly in line with this. Hunting down bands of brigands and raiders is perfectly in line with this. Engaging in an invasion of another nation? Not so much. If that nation was clearly and directly responsible for the death of Oalian, they could be driven mad with the desire for vengeance, but they still aren't going to be doing what they do best, and that's going to hurt them; and the wiser heads among the Wardens would likely say that vengeance serves no purpose, that all things die in time, and that they should not let this lead them off their proper path. Now, the Ashbound are another story, and would be more than happy to invade for vengeance... but the Ashbound aren't great on organization and discipline, and would fill the "roving bands of raiders" role, not "organized invasion." Lack of Resources. Again, the Wardens are at their best when defending. Seige warfare is NOT their thing. A powerful druid might be able to bring down fortress walls, but without one of those around, they don't have a history of dealing with fortifications or access to siege equipment. Likewise, while they can and would organize the Eldeen farmers as a defensive force, that force is going to have minimal armor and weaponry in comparison to the army of Aundair. The Eldeen Reaches are known for agriculture, not industry! Finally, the further they go from the Towering Woods, the farther the Wardens are from things like treants, fey, and other magical forces that might help them. Motivation. Again, one of the big factors in the conflict between Aundair and the Reaches is that the Aundairians have always wanted to reclaim the land - and the people, if possible. As such, they HAVEN'T been unleashing the full terrors of war that they might employ against Thrane or even Breland. Casualties have been more limited. For one thing, you're going to have this in reverse: as I said, the farmers may not feel good about killing people who may be THEIR cousins... and meanwhile, Aundair may be more willing to unleash every horror in its arsenal once it is actually under attack. In the past, the Reaches have had the moral high ground, which adds to morale... and Aundair has been handicapped by the fact that it HASN'T wanted to massacre people or scorch the earth. Once the Reaches are invading, all that goes out the window. So. Aundair's military forces outnumber those of the Reaches by a considerable factor. The Wardens have little experience with strategies of siege and occupation, and their doctrine is based around defense. The militia forces have experience defending their homesteads, but little operating in enemy territory (which requires supply lines and all sorts of logistical issues). And if the Reaches invade, they can expect Aundair to stop holding back, which it has likely been doing in past encounters as it has wanted to reclaim the region more-or-less intact. On the other side, how much force would the Aundairans be willing to commit to an invasion of the Reaches? There's lots of issues here, too. We're deeply concerned about Thrane, and as noted in T5N, the public at large is more interested in fighting Thrane than the Reaches. If we move in with too much of our forces, we invite a new Thrane offensive. If we move in with too little, we invite the possibility of an embarassing defeat. Either way, if we are successful, what resources will he have to devote to the ongoing occupation? Rangers make exceptional insurgents, and are more likely to flee back into the Towering Woods than to stand and fight to the last man... and a long, lingering occupation is going to be ANOTHER problem if we then end up going to war with Thrane again. It's really a difficult situation. Darro WANTS to reclaim the Reaches. He's making plans. But he's going to need a very good plan. That's why I'm saying a critical point is to turn the farmers against the Wardens - to ultimately convince the people to accept Aundairian rule, minimizing the forces requiring in occupation. If he truly managed to turn the farmers against the druids, the Wardens might even just back off; they aren't conquerors, and if the people did say "We reject your teachings, and are glad to be back with Aundair" - they'd probably just slink back to the Woods. But accomplishing that is a VERY tall order, since as we've noted in previous posts, few of the people of the Reaches think of Aundair as a homeland. I doubt they could conquer Aundair but it occurs to me the inferior forces of the reaches might be able to be organized into something that could deal a series of crushing blows to the enemy. And my point is that they can organized into such a force, and have dealt such blows... in their home territory. But there's a difference between defending your homeland from invaders and actually invading another nation - and I think the forces of the Reaches are very ill-equipped for invasion, both due to resources, military traditions (or lack thereof), and morale. And don't forget, the people of Aundair have been at war themselves for a century. They have fortresses, a larger, well-organized, and better-equipped army, and the resolve to fight invaders themselves. I think it's a remarkable testament to the courage and fortitude of the Reachers (and the magic of the druids) that they have managed to hold off Aundair. I think a successful offensive campaign would truly be a miracle. Unless Thrane attacked the other side of Aundair at the same time... which, of course, it might. Of course, if THAT happened, that's where you might see apocalyptic magics released in a ":censored: you, we've got nothing to lose!" reaction. Anyhow, as I said, that's all I can afford to write for a while. Take it or leave it!
aelryinth 08-27-06, 06:02 PM	If you have to have the Reaches strike against Aundair, in all honestly you have to seriously consider guerilla fighting and terrorist activities. The real world equivalents would be Al-Qaeda itself, probably matched up with the Ashbound and maybe the Children of Winter. In fact, that is sort of what is going on right now, with sniping across the borders. Foiling the dastardly plots of fanatical Reachers striking against the foul magic of the civilized lands that oppressed them is a great job for the Queen's Eyes, while taking a cult of druidic fanatics and whipping them into proper shape to kill as many Aundaireans as nastily as possible seems like a 'noble' calling for any rather pitiless band of adventurers. Given the lack of pure power of the leaders of the factions (more talk then action), taking over the factions and leading them to an active and very unwanted level of influence would be a viable way to power. Think the current leader of Hezbollah, with its power among the Palestinians (Reachers) against the vile heretics (Israelis)...very good and supportive to their own people, but utterly pitiless against the enemy, trying to whip people into ever more hatred against the common foe...and the more the foe fights back, the more they 'win' the propoganda battle. Imagine the Ashbound taking over all druidic support for the border areas with Aundair, as charitable and defensive as any Warden of the Wood...but also training and organizing those who have lost loved ones to take the fight to Aundair as only Reachers can, and being more then willing to stir up all sorts of trouble, even making 'deep strikes' into Aundairean territory. I'd think the Queen would shiver on her throne if that were to happen. ===Aelryinth
Charles Phipps 08-27-06, 06:11 PM	Now, this really has to be my last post for a while: I have work to do and my own game to prep for. Thanks your Divine Bovine Shadowness. Well basically, you've pointed out that a Scotland attacking England style campaign is something that won't work (though I believe the player described his idea as sacking one major Aundair city then slipping back over the border and thus forcing a major Aundairian offensive into the Eldeen Reaches and thus allowing them to annihilate their army on their home soil). I think it's mainly a point of me trying to figure out how to be suitably grandiose in my mini-campaign. The Fall of the Great Oak Oalian and the rise of a King trying to win the loyalty of everyone is definitely great fodder for a game right there but it seems like it's missing something without a suitable climax of revenge or victory over Aundair. I understand the Aundarians don't want to invade their cousins truly though. It lacks a certain amount of drama though that it's merely a change of ruler with the assassination of a major figure in the Eldeen Reaches though and Darro with his Lord of Dust advisor getting away with it. Though I'm still not sure how I'm going to resolve the issue of the Rajah potentially being released by it. (I may make it a seperate "Grand Conjunction" if you know Ravenloft style of adventures where the players don't find out about the criteria to release the Big Bad until they've fulfilled about half of them) Imagine the Ashbound taking over all druidic support for the border areas with Aundair, as charitable and defensive as any Warden of the Wood...but also training and organizing those who have lost loved ones to take the fight to Aundair as only Reachers can, and being more then willing to stir up all sorts of trouble, even making 'deep strikes' into Aundairean territory. I'd think the Queen would shiver on her throne if that were to happen. I'm inclined to think again the Scotland example (even if it's overused) is a good point where the Eldeen Reaches lack much in the way of armored calvary, discipline, and training in group tactics. They do however have lots of well trained small fighters. Which makes the idea of a single unifying figure to the game all the more important to handle the matter. The addition of Druidic power vs. Magical Might of Aundair though is a significant question though and it might be interesting to see if the adventurers could do some "raiding" in typical adventurer style to sabotage the great spell library or something equally destructive to severely damage the spell lobbing power of the realm. What I am interested in of course is how Aundair getting a severe black eye might result in Thrane attacking or Breland's involvement or perhaps even a changing of the Triumviant style relationship.
DBlizzard 08-27-06, 06:19 PM	But I then again, I prefer to play the Daughters as a mysterious source of information - plot device rather than foe. I like the fact that monsters aren't always the enemy, and I like making the players match wits with Sora Katra, trying to unravel her assistance and determine what her true motives are, trying to decide if they can afford to accept her aid or whether it's too dangerous. To me, the Daughters are the stuff of folklore and faerie tale; they possess the power to aid or hinder, and the question is whether you can play their game. And may I say, you do a very good job of portraying them as that in Eye of the Wolf. I'm not so enticed by their physical portrayal in the comic, but their story portrayal works well.
Prince Indirian 08-27-06, 08:26 PM	I would have concentrated on Kaarnath since King Kaius has many enemies, but it would be infinitely easier if you are one of the displeased warlords. On the Reaches Kaarnath buys a lot of food from Aundair and the Eldeen Reaches (hereafter known as TER). The problems with that of course is that Kaarnath is filling the treasure chests in Aundair with gold, in a very "unstable" time. A better solution would be too, buy most or all the food from the TER, because they are much less a threat than Aundair. Also Kaarnath being the premier military power (well used to be back in the days of Kaarn and Galifar) can assist the TER in military matters since they are quite good at it. Off course Kaarnath with the best military industry (unless Brealand decides to show off, in which case Kaarnath needs to hide in some corner somewhere) can sell weapons , such as swords and chain shirts (I don't think they would wear anything heavier) to the TER at friendly prices or trade them for food. The problem though depends on how many in TER that know that Kaanrath sponsored the bandit raids that lead to them "leaving" Aundair with the help of the Wardens of the Wood (hereafter known as WotW). Other than that, it could be a win/win solution. kaarnath gets food, TER gets quality weapons and military training as well gold and Aundair, their mutual enemy gets nothing. I also want to add that Aurala brother called TER a "meat grinder" referring to the battles that took place their. I assume they (Aundair) aren't willing to go there but that they did a lot and got kicked in the rear.
Splendide 08-27-06, 08:40 PM	I was under the impression that Thrane was the breadbasket of Khorvaire, not Aundair, and that Karrnath has no problem with food. Also that the Karrnath/Aundair enmity is also stronger than Karrnath/Thrane. Any purchase of food from the Reaches would need to come through Aundair, and I doubt they'd be happy to see weapons travelling through either.
Prince Indirian 08-27-06, 08:57 PM	I was under the impression that Thrane was the breadbasket of Khorvaire, not Aundair, and that Karrnath has no problem with food. Also that the Karrnath/Aundair enmity is also stronger than Karrnath/Thrane. Any purchase of food from the Reaches would need to come through Aundair, and I doubt they'd be happy to see weapons travelling through either. Read your ECS on kaarnaths food issues. They had a famine the same year the "truce" was signed, with the help TER and Aundair they managed to change that. The enmity between Thrane and Kaarnath is worst, you can read it in 5 Nations. And food doesn't need to be traveled though Aundair. Take a boat or something. Lock at the map part of the reaches are in fact bordering to the sea. I can definitely sea city being going up there. Sure most people are farmers, house Vadalis could easily sponsor it and gain some hefty profits from it. Whether Aundair likes it or nor doesn't matter. What can they do ? Attack the trading-ships traveling, blaming it on "pirates" (read Royal eyes agents). But Kaarnath can easily solve it: bring some escorts (read Kaarns warships:devil:). At least the Karna navy does some work now, instead of sitting there and doing some "patrolling". I am aware that Aundauir has some part of the water/sea as her territory (maybe 5 miles out wards, it something like that in real life) but as long as Kaaarnath isn't violating it with military forces things will be fine...for now.
Charles Phipps 08-27-06, 10:11 PM	Well some basic takes on the matter that I'm able to take on this end... Aundair: Aundair has no desire to invade except for First Warlord Darro whom has decided to make a magical 'cataclysm' in order to bring about the return of the Reaches to the land. Assuming that the magical cataclysm in question is the death of Oalian, does this mean he'd be able to lead an invasion or would it be a point where he'd need the deck even more stacked in his favor? Would Aurala approve of such a move and if not, could he still essentially waltz into the region to reclaim it? The Druid Sects: Oalian's death is the destruction of one of the great goods in the world for politics. Even if he's left a leader, I imagine there's got to be some nasty "Eye for Eye" desire for vengeance here. At the very least the Ashbound and the Children of Winter will want to make Aundair pay for their treachery. The question of course, is how exactly can they do so when one is a nation of powerful magicians and they're small factions truly. What is suitable death for the equivalent of murdering your Pope? The Average Reacher: I imagine the Death of Oalian is something that's not going to shake them terribly to the core. Nevertheless, I expect any new authority will be largely uncontested by the people itself if it got the Treant's approval except for perhaps a few trials by locals. I imagine that also that they might be able to be assembled into a genuine army though they'd be a poor substitute to Aundair's forces by comparison by far. Breland: Breland is a supporter of Aundair during this conflict but I doubt they'll give much in the way of support unless asked. If they do ask, then that will probably seem like it'd spell doom for The Eldeen Reaches in this respect. Nevertheless, it would also make Aundair look extremely weak and could insight Thrane to attack but I doubt they'd openly begin the Last War again. Droam: If the PCs get the monsters aid in this respect, they pretty much could decimate Breland's forces if they were to involve themselves and much the same for any Aundarian forces but I doubt most would go North unmolested by the populous of the Reaches. They're not a terribly cosmopolitan bunch I think. The lords of Dust: Having killed Oalian and fulfilled their end of the prophecy, I suspect they will have little to do with this matter further. They might be interested in turning against Aundair (releasing plagues or betraying Darro unto death) at this point to preserve the kingdom or they might simply desire to encourage as much carnage or horror as possible. They are demons after all. Thrane: Given the geographical boundaries, I really don't see how they can contribute anything to the conflict here and there. Ditto,much the same for Karrnath even if they hope for boils on Aundair.
Sir Elton 08-27-06, 11:06 PM	I treat the Daughters of Sora Kell as the Three Wierd Sisters from Disney's Gargoyles. They are like Hellcow explained them to be, the three witches from MacBeth, or those three witches are the prototype. The daughters of Sora Kell can be kingmakers. Perhaps one of them offers a prophecy that this PC will be king, offering both boon and doom. But king of what nation? Once you have that figured out, you've got the Eberron Equivalent of MacBeth. Then everything in the Campaign is weighted to his meteoric rise to power, and then his eventual downfall. If he's going to be king, then let him become king. But at the end, turn it into some kind of tragedy. As for the Mournland, wouldn't it be a great idea to divide Cyre in two? North Cyre and South Cyre if you will. The PC can rule the North and Oragev can rule the South. When the PC has his tragic fall, Oragev just fills the void.
iKitten 08-27-06, 11:32 PM	I treat the Daughters of Sora Kell as the Three Wierd Sisters from Disney's Gargoyles. They are like Hellcow explained them to be, the three witches from MacBeth, or those three witches are the prototype. The daughters of Sora Kell can be kingmakers. Perhaps one of them offers a prophecy that this PC will be king, offering both boon and doom. But king of what nation? Once you have that figured out, you've got the Eberron Equivalent of MacBeth. Then everything in the Campaign is weighted to his meteoric rise to power, and then his eventual downfall. If he's going to be king, then let him become king. But at the end, turn it into some kind of tragedy. As for the Mournland, wouldn't it be a great idea to divide Cyre in two? North Cyre and South Cyre if you will. The PC can rule the North and Oragev can rule the South. When the PC has his tragic fall, Oragev just fills the void. You'd have to get rid of all the stuff that makes it the Mournland first. Either that or repopulate the land with creatures that don't care about the fact that the daily weather forecast for the nation is perpetually "Foggy with a chance of Cloudkill."
Errant 08-27-06, 11:46 PM	At your suggestion, I may rule that the Lords of Dust are more interested in stirring up trouble in the region...possibly as an excuse to try and track down the last remnants of the Gatekeepers sect in the resulting war. It might be terribly interesting if the "Summertime War" I'm describing is actually them trying to raise hell and Aundair just dismisses it as Last War veterans committing crimes in a 'lawless' (by comparison) region. If the LoD are/become aware of Lord Darro's activities they could well spread rumours of his activities while fielding agents who hire raiders while pretending to be Lord Darro/Royal Eyes. This would make it very hard for Lord Darro to present a credible denial re organising the raiders himself. Particularly when captured raider leaders believe he was their patron & especially when you consider poorly worded divinations/commune spells (like "is Lord Darro (or Aundair) organising insurgence/disruption in the Eldeen Reaches") could produce accurate but misleading implications. The LoD will also have monstrous minions at their command that would be far different to what Warden ranger/druids would expect when tracking the "Aundairan" raiders. Massacre a couple of settlements (creating a sense of vulnerability/outrage), ambush and wipe out a few Warden patrols (eroding confidence in the Wardens' abiltiy to defend the 'Reaches), inflate rumours of Aundair's/Lord Darro's involvement (inflaming tensions) and you get a very volatile situation. Factor in Oalian sensing (unclearly, due to LoD counter-magic) the presence of unnatural evil (the LoDs' minions) and Oalian could end up calling upon unusual allies... cue the PCs (who would have an exceptional opportunity to win fame, reputation & influencee). I'm currently interested in some general thoughts about how much force Aundair might be willing to bring to bear against the Reaches. It occurs to me that they might not invade with Oalian's death but it might become a matter of the Reaches trying to invade Aundair (something that would at last bring their enemies into open battle). A defeat there would allow at last Aundair to reclaim the Reaches (though this might require a second Thronehold conference to rewrite things) but if Aundair is defeated by the Reaches....good Lord, that's got to be a blow to the ego at the very least. Imagine: inflamed tensions along the border & an apparent inability of the Wardens to defend the 'Reaches could give the more aggressive druidic sects enough extra influence to organise their own retaliatory raids into Aundair... Lord Darro would then find himself able to drum up support for an open military response... The Wardens get dragged into things defending against the Aundairan response... Queen Aurala suddenly finds herself dealing with open hostilities on her western borders & decides to deal with them quickly, before Thrane/Karrnath is encouraged to take advantage of Aundair's distraction... The LoD Continue their raids and ambushes setting up both sides, laughing all the way while tension errupts in to full blown warfare. Does that sound like a credible scenario?
Errant 08-27-06, 11:56 PM	Aundair: Aundair has no desire to invade except for First Warlord Darro whom has decided to make a magical 'cataclysm' in order to bring about the return of the Reaches to the land. Assuming that the magical cataclysm in question is the death of Oalian, does this mean he'd be able to lead an invasion or would it be a point where he'd need the deck even more stacked in his favor? Would Aurala approve of such a move and if not, could he still essentially waltz into the region to reclaim it? I think you're confusing Warlords. Lord Darro wants to reclaim the 'Reaches badly enough to sponsor insurgence/disruption there. First Warlord Adal thinks the 'Reaches are the meat grinder, ie more trouble than they're worth. He wants to bring about a magical cataclysm, testing it against the army of Thrane around Thaliost and using the event to threaten other nations.
Charles Phipps 08-27-06, 11:58 PM	Oops, misread. I always sorted them in my head as "One for Thaliost, One for Eldeen Reaches."
Charles Phipps 08-28-06, 12:07 AM	If the LoD are/become aware of Lord Darro's activities they could well spread rumours of his activities while fielding agents who hire raiders while pretending to be Lord Darro/Royal Eyes. This would make it very hard for Lord Darro to present a credible denial re organising the raiders himself. Particularly when captured raider leaders believe he was their patron & especially when you consider poorly worded divinations/commune spells (like "is Lord Darro (or Aundair) organising insurgence/disruption in the Eldeen Reaches") could produce accurate but misleading implications. The LoD will also have monstrous minions at their command that would be far different to what Warden ranger/druids would expect when tracking the "Aundairan" raiders. Massacre a couple of settlements (creating a sense of vulnerability/outrage), ambush and wipe out a few Warden patrols (eroding confidence in the Wardens' abiltiy to defend the 'Reaches), inflate rumours of Aundair's/Lord Darro's involvement (inflaming tensions) and you get a very volatile situation. Factor in Oalian sensing (unclearly, due to LoD counter-magic) the presence of unnatural evil (the LoDs' minions) and Oalian could end up calling upon unusual allies... cue the PCs (who would have an exceptional opportunity to win fame, reputation & influencee). A very interesting scenario right there and one I might be willing to look over. Though it interestingly may make the warlord too much of a victim in this respect rather than someone whom quite rightly is probably the only antagionist the players will be able to take their vengeance out on in this respect. The Lords of Dust bein beyond them. Imagine: inflamed tensions along the border & an apparent inability of the Wardens to defend the 'Reaches could give the more aggressive druidic sects enough extra influence to organise their own retaliatory raids into Aundair... Lord Darro would then find himself able to drum up support for an open military response... The Wardens get dragged into things defending against the Aundairan response... Queen Aurala suddenly finds herself dealing with open hostilities on her western borders & decides to deal with them quickly, before Thrane/Karrnath is encouraged to take advantage of Aundair's distraction... The LoD Continue their raids and ambushes setting up both sides, laughing all the way while tension errupts in to full blown warfare. Does that sound like a credible scenario? Quite so.
Fion81 08-28-06, 12:29 AM	Its really the same as taking over anywhere. you need the appriopriate connections, the brute power and the cunning to do it. Also perhaps the luck. Just what those specific elements entail is relative to this world.
Errant 08-28-06, 11:30 AM	A very interesting scenario right there and one I might be willing to look over. Though it interestingly may make the warlord too much of a victim in this respect rather than someone whom quite rightly is probably the only antagionist the players will be able to take their vengeance out on in this respect. The Lords of Dust bein beyond them. Darro too much of a victim? Hmm. Odds are the PCs will wind up discovering, maybe even exposing, Lord Darro's activities. Probably before they realise the LoDs' involvement. Naturally, HE knows he hasn't organised massacres or the other severe activities, so when things get out of hand he will have been making investigations himself, unhampered by the preconceptions about his (or other Aundairans') involvement. This would place him in a unique position to identify the real culprits and potentially put him in a position to defuse the whole scenario. But what if he doesn't want to? Lets say the PCs investigations get close enough to Darro that he starts to worry about having his activities exposed. As a “villainous type” he’s powerful, influential and not about to give those things up if he can do anything about it. He could just try to have the PCs assassinated. Or, he better yet, turn them to his purposes: give the PCs enough information to point them toward the LoD involvement. That gives him an opportunity to defuse tensions, if he keeps Aurala informed etc. If the PCs confirm its NOT Aundair behind the worst atrocities, the Wardens will naturally direct their efforts toward the true culprits. But, if Darro *hides* the LoD involvement from Aurala (or at least the public, depending on how far you want the villainy to go), while continuing encouraging the Aundairan build up & retaliations against ‘Reacher (Ashbound/Children of Winter etc) hostilities. *Plus*, if Darro acts to hinder the PCs efforts against the LoD… The ‘Reachers could easily find themselves facing escalating hostilities on two fronts. Play it right, and you could keep the PCs guessing about Darro right up to the end: is he trying to stop a ‘Reacher/Aundair war or encourage it? Is he a well meaning noble framed by darker powers? Does he want to help them or hinder them? Is his information reliable, mistaken or deliberately wrong? He may not *initially* be responsible for escalating tensions to open warfare, but if he becomes aware of an outside influence and uses the situation to promote his own ambitions he’s no longer much of a victim. [Edit: Note - I'm not saying Lord Darro has to be a villain, just that if you want him to this is one way he could be]
ArcTan 08-28-06, 11:47 AM	Of course, it might do well for you to consider the fact that I didn't suggest Queen Aurala as a candidate or Jaela. No, in fact it didn't. Instead, you might have noted that most adventurers are male and it might have been in the reverse that marriage is a way for female adventurers to become a Queen. Well, Jaela is 11 years old, and Aurala is already married, making both of them unavailable choices. The thing is that "Marry the Queen and become the King" *is* a far more common deal than "Marry the King and become the Queen", since historically and in fiction there tends to be this assumption that marrying the Queen and becoming the King gives you all the Queen's power and makes you a real ruler, while marrying the King and becoming the Queen makes you a pampered consort but not a political leader. Note that it doesn't actually work like this in Eberron -- sovereignty can only be passed by blood, not marriage, hence Aurala's husband is her Prince-Consort but *not* the King. However, saying that marrying the Hags would give you the potential to become a national leader seems to be saying something more -- that the Hags are ready to abdicate or share their power with their husbands, which other female leaders like Aurala certainly cannot and do not do. No, the point of marriage is that it is one of the time honored and powerful ways to legitimize an alliance. The Hag Nation is (in my campaign) essentially this bizarre and disgusting realm (to the other Nations) that craves legitimacy for the fact that they desire to raise crops and be treated as a legitimate political entity. Yeah, but the fact that they *are* disgusting monsters is the reason why marrying them is silly. It's not that they're not of noble blood -- it's that they're *monsters*. Next you'll be saying that if the Lord of Blades were to take on a random human wife his kingdom would be accepted, too. Miscegenation is gross enough in Eberron, at least between the truly monstrous races and humans, that I think you'd freak people out by doing this. "Oh, a random adventurer married Sora Maenya. What horrid magic did she have to use to force him to do that?" Not "Oh, true love! They must be people after all." A nation of PEOPLE rather than creatures. A marriage alliance is at best a recognition of the formal bonds between a man and a woman (or elsewise) which results in them being treated foremost and firstmost as people. Of course, my interpretation of the Hags has always been that they have never been 1. Particularly villainous 2. Particularly heinous 3. Particularly mysterious 4. Or even particularly powerful This is in direct odds with Keith's interpretations. My Hags have always been controlling the various power points in the PC lands by virtue of diplomacy and making alliances they've managed to enforce and keep. However, their control has been tenuous because of the fact that they are attempting to turn Droam into a 'civilized kingdom' rather than attempting to make it a savage land of horrors. Again, this seems in direct odds with the way Keith has presented them elsewhere and is born solely from my take on them from the book. There are other ways for the Hags to become seen as PEOPLE that don't involve them being lovesick damsels looking for swains. Generally, the way cultures like that have gotten respect from other nations has been by forcing it through military power. Droaam is already in a good place where diplomatic respect is, as long as they're powerful and dangerous enough to force people to respect them. Marriage solidifies alliances between parties that are *already legitimate*. I find the idea of legitimizing a nation of monsters by marrying their queens kind of silly and Gilbert & Sullivan, all the more so when the reason they're illegitimate *is that they are monsters*, a fact that won't change no matter how many human men they boff. In any case, become the Hags' consorts definitely ought not make you an actual political leader, not unless the Hags are willing to give *you* control over Droaam to make Droaam "legitimate" by giving it a human king. And if that's your take on it, I'm getting all the way off that bus. The Droaamites want respect, but as independent citizens of their own nation, not as yet another thrall of the human kingdoms. I wouldn't make Droaam a bunch of people who just want to be loved and get good jobs in Sharn any more than I'd write the Lord of Blades that way, for all that I do see the LoBster as a tragic, noble figure -- pathos is a hell of a lot more interesting when packaged with actual menace.
Kreistor1 08-28-06, 11:57 AM	A lot of people have been posting how one thing or another could not succeed at achieving his player's goal, but the groupmind hasn't been actually helping him achieve that goal. If Charles wants his player to have a chance, then what we need to be doing is figuring out how the player could achieve his goal. The best way to figure out how something can be done is to look at how something has been achieved in the past and emulate that. We should examine both Eberron history and Earth's history. There is only one case where a nation in Eberron history has seen its political power switch from a noble tradition power structure to a different system -- specifically Thrane. It became a theocracy, but retained the figurehead royal family in order to not threaten the systems of its neighbours. (The nobility in all four nations would have seen this as a threat to their legitimacy and united to retain their privilege. When it's all nobles running around and killing and dying for personal power, that's one thing. But when it's someone stepping in and declaring some of them to no longer have power, filling it with something outside the system, they stop being petty and defend the nobility itself, worrying about the details of what they rule wait until after they've squashed the interloper.) So, there is little precedent from other people's actions for giving us examples of how the player could achieve his goals. That means we have to turn to Earth history for example. I'm most familiar with British history and its system of nobility (the Peerage... those with title are called Peers), so I have to use it for examples. In order to conquer any of the nations, he has to do it in such a manner that the other three nations do not see him as changing the balance of power. He can't be a threat to the system as a whole. For instance, when Henry VIII broke from Rome, he changed the system. A new church, a new way. This threatened the European system as a whole; however, he did not wind up changing the balance of power with relation to Spain, France, etc. The nation supported the change, and so his power base remained intact. Nations didn't invade Britain because it was strong before the change, and they didn't invade after the change, because it had not changed militarily. The constant fighting of the War of the Roses resulted in weakness that lost Britain Northern France. Now, who did that, exactly? Well, you have heard of Joan of Arc. You know the peasant girl that orated the French into the fight? Remember that all natoins trace their real power to popular support, not some dry set of laws written to some individuals' benefit over others. Charles VII couldn't have gained North France without the people suddenly becoming interested in taking it, which is what Joan provided. The French never faced a united Britain because the British were fighting each other and thought the French weak. That was true, the French at the time were, but the French were stronger than either half of the British war for the throne. Splitting the nation made Britain vulnerable. So, when he ascends to whatever position he achieved, the nation he takes over cannot be viewed as being weakened to the point of being an easy target for the other nations. The Nations all saw what 100 years of alliances of convenience achieved. They've all lost territory to breakaway states, and gained nothing significant in terms of core territory. They can't justify another War like that, so you have to expect that they will hold to arrangements this time, so long as they are guaranteed of some gain. Basically, if this guy takes over Breland but does so in such a way that the military does not obey his rule, Aundair, Thrane, and Karrnath could carve Breland up on paper, walk in and take their pieces, and then go back to status quo with only three nations heading for empire. Maybe such a thing wouldn't hold for the long term, but the player must be concerned about the short term, since an battel right after ascension to defend the throne leaves him King for a day, unless he can see the threat off. So... The player needs to win hearts and minds. He needs to win the support of the military. He needs to win the support of the government. In Britain, that did happen, or at least sort of happened. Oliver Cromwell. The commoner that seized the reins of Britain. He opposed an unpopular king, built a military with his own money, and changed the way government worked. No small task; however, it began with the head of state being opposed by the common people. Charles I was pushing back reform, trying to grab more power, and chose a Catholic wife. All of these earned him the enmity of the people. The nation was divided and it was Cromwell that charismatically stole the whole show. Funny how that charisma thing keeps cropping up. Insipiring people seems to get you their respect and support. The player is starting with the beest claim to Breland. Yes, he could try to claim another nation, but he'd be facing four generations of descendants. There are brothers, cousins, second cousins, and more to interfere with any claim to the other thrones. Better to start in Breland. So, let's start with the public opinion thing. The majority of Brelish support the nobility, despite that terrorist group (who will no longer be mentioned). If the public doesn't like the PC rising to the throne, you can expect a nation divided, and the PC should know it. He will want to make the people respect him. The best way to achieve that goal is, ironically, by achieving visible and heroic goals. Basically, he should begin as an adventurer. Save towns. Destroy the nation's enemies. Defeat the Emerald Claw as they try to steal the largest airship ever built. Stop Tornados coming over the border of Cyre into Breland. Find a Rakshasa hiding as one of Boranel's advisors. Basically, be a hero and save the world, and everyone will respect you. At this point, it isn't necessarily a good idea to reveal his background. Someone in the royal family would see him as a threat and go for him. DOn't need that messiness at this point. (Not that someone may not know, but the public shouldn't.) Enough success can see the character given titles. One thing a lot of people don't realize is that so called "commoners" could be raised to the Peerage. All nobility are descended from people that performed great deeds of courage and valour for the state. These were honoured with hereditary titles. Descendants of that family who achieved great things could gain the family higher titles. I will point you to the case of the Duke of Wellington, who was not going to inherit his father's Earldom and so initially began life in that unhappy middle ground between nobility and commoner, but through his skill at warfare was raised to Baron, Earl, and Duke, as well as other distinguishing rewards. His descendants still hold the title Duke of Wellington. The other arm of the Wellesley family still holds his father's Earldom. So, to lend legitimacy to his efforts, he must first establish that he is a Hero in his own right, and deserving of Title. So, present a normal campaign, but ensure that the heroes achieve public success. (Ie. Don't run a Dark Lantern campaign where everything they achieve is in the shadows and they'll never gain recognition.) Once he has achieved a Peerage on his own merit, begin a media campaign that presents and legitimizes his status as an illegitimate child of King Boranel. Now he is a Peer. Now he has proven his worth to the people. Now it would be a mistake for anyone to come gunning for him openly. This will require something new for Galifar: masterful manipulation of the media. The game contains the necessary elements: the Sharn Inquisitive for instance. The media is there to be manipulated. Illegitimate children have always been threats to the Throne. It is possible for subtle and devious manipulators to legitimize an illegitimate child, turning that person into a legal heir. In fact, this has been done in more than one occasion, and the reverse has occured in order to remove royalty that did not align with the goals of the manipulators that put them on the throne in the first place. The player should continue to play the role he has chosen for the time being: he's been a hero and should keep performing those same great acts of heroism. Save the nation, prove his loyalty to king and state, be better than all of the other alternatives for inheriting the throne. He will then become a rallying point to those that would suffer at the hands of any of Boranel's legitimate descendants that ascend. The other potential heirs will have enemies. Just as with modern politicians and their cronyism, new Kings raised their friends to positions in the government, supplanting previous ministers. If a child is known to favour one family over a family currently in power, that old family could approach the illegitimate heir and trade promises of support for promises of position in the government. Illegitimate or not, the PC could be seen through to the throne. This can begin a political intrigue campaign. Operate in the shadows, using Machiavellian techniques to gain the favour of Peer after Peer. A complete paradigm shift to the campaign. (It may feel like a new campaign, and might be treated as such for the other players.) Blackmail and extortion, promises of land, redefining border disputes, and so on -- there are lots of ways to turn a Peer from enemy to ally. By the time Boranel dies, the PC needs the support of the majority of the military leadership (who will be Peers), and some of the more influential political leaders in the state. A King can declare a successor, but it is up to those who interpret the Law to determine legitimacy. More than one heir has found his mother's marriage declared null and void, turning him illegitimate, in favour of a more manipulatable younger brother. And yes, that can often result in a war as those that would have gained had he ascended back his claim. The PC can retroactively be declared legitimate (it's just paperwork to invent a new history -- a secret marriage or some such), by inventing a marriage between Boranel and his mother, which illegitimizes all the current descendants, since their mother's marriage becomes illegitimate and they become the illegitimate children. The winner writes the history, after all. This has happened in British history. How the next stage (as ruler) of the campaign begins would depend on how well he achieved his goal. The attempts by other nations to protest his rule will be inversely proportional to the appearance of popular, political, and militry support. The weaker he appears, the more likely someone will make a move. Very weak support or a bitter political fight to gain the throne will see all of the Nations invading. A quick and merciless succession with all of the other candidates jailed and complete military and popular support would see no one wanting to risk their own power base to fight a potentially united Breland. Anyway, the player is probably not thinking that subtley. Most players think military takeover or coup. Lots don't realize just how tenuous the succession is, nor how manipulatable it is. There are Laws, oh yes there are Laws, but the Law is interpreted by men with motivation to interpret that Law to their own personal benefit.
Euangelion 08-28-06, 02:51 PM	Interesting thread! But you missed the one place that a truly heroic and creative character could lay claim to and rule - the Mournland.
Hellcow 08-28-06, 04:10 PM	A lot of people have been posting how one thing or another could not succeed at achieving his player's goal, but the groupmind hasn't been actually helping him achieve that goal. Just as an observation, with the character's history in mind, it's my belief that he could absolutely become leader of the Eldeen Reaches... provided that he either has Oalian's support, Oalian dies, or preferably both. As such, it requires a certain concept of destiny... that Oalian believes he is the right person to lead the Reaches after Oalian's fal, as opposed to a total "I make my own destiny and take over this nation in defiance of fate"l... but given the character's history, I think that's it's entirtely appropriate, and to my mind fits perfectly with the "if this was a novel, the PCs would be the heroes" theme. So yes, if I was DMing this character, I'd let him become Lord of the Reaches (assume he overcame all the obstacles in his path)... and then have him get to deal with an unleashed Overlord, bring the Ashbound to heel, and all sorts of other fun challenges! In fact, one more reason I like the Reaches as a domain is because it IS so full of adventure possibilities for the new ruler. Raising the view of his "nation" in the eyes of the rest of the world. Trying to forge a stronger alliance between the druid sects, especially in the wake of Oalian's death. Continuing tension with Aundair, and the question of whether Breland could become an ally. And the other neighbors... Droaam and the Demon Wastes. If the Shadowsword is raising a barbarian army in the Demon Wastes, the Reaches would be the first line of defense! So while there are difficulties, I think rulership of the Reaches is both possible and quite interesting.
Hellcow 08-28-06, 04:34 PM	The Druid Sects: Oalian's death is the destruction of one of the great goods in the world for politics. Even if he's left a leader, I imagine there's got to be some nasty "Eye for Eye" desire for vengeance here. At the very least the Ashbound and the Children of Winter will want to make Aundair pay for their treachery. Actually, I disagree on that last point. Ashbound? Absolutely. They already believe that arcane magic and civilization - both of which are embodied in Aundair - are negative influences, and see Oalian as a symbol of nature. If Aundair destroyed Oalian, I think you'd get a near-suicidal drive for vengeance. But the Children of Winter? I don't think they'd be that dramatic. First, Oalian isn't the leader of their sect. They respect him, but their greater ties are to the Gloaming. More important, the pillar of the philosophy of the Children of Winter is that death is inevitable. Oalian has been around for four thousand years. I feel that the average Child of Winter would simply say "He lived his span, and now it is done. Other trees will rise in the soil of the Greenheart, and in time another shall take his place." Without a strong leader to ride herd on them, they might increase their deadly activities... but I don't think vengeance would be their prime motivator. The political boundaries of the world are irrelevant to them; all nations will fall when the Great Winter comes. In fact, they would probably see Oalian's death as just another one of the signs that Winter is Nigh. As for the Wardens? I think you'd see a schism. You would have some who would join with the Ashbound in search of vengeance. But again, this quest for vengeance really goes against the principles of the Wardens, and those principles define their lives and culture. I think they would want to ensure that such a thing would never happen again; but I also think they would seek to find out EXACTLY who was responsible for Oalian's death, not simply blame all of Aundair. Again, in the original secession of the Reaches, they emerged to defend farmers who were then citizens of Aundair. They don't want innocents to suffer for the crimes of their rulers, and that's what would happen in open war. [The Average Reacher: I imagine the Death of Oalian is something that's not going to shake them terribly to the core. Again, I'd have to disagree. At the time of secession, the Reachers saw Oalian as, effectively, their savior; he was the one who sent his warriors to protect them, asking nothing in return, when they had been abandoned. For the children born since then, he is a mythic figure, and most feel it is his power that defends the Reaches from their enemies. They may have never SEEN him, but that's part of the point; he's a legend, the next best thing to a god to them. I think the death of Oalian would be a tremendous psychological blow to the typical commoner, and that you'd actually be much MORE likely to see rage from the farmer than the ranger. Again, the Wardens practice a doctrine focused on defending the innocent and not simply practicing vengeance. The commoners respect those traditions and follow the basics, but don't have that same devotion... so they can certainly give in to their outrage!
Hellcow 08-28-06, 04:39 PM	Well basically, you've pointed out that a Scotland attacking England style campaign is something that won't work (though I believe the player described his idea as sacking one major Aundair city then slipping back over the border and thus forcing a major Aundairian offensive into the Eldeen Reaches and thus allowing them to annihilate their army on their home soil). Which is an entirely different scenario. My point is that the Reachers are strong on their home ground, but would be weak as an invading force. Provoking an Aundairian attack would be fine, especially if Thrane took advantage of it.
Kreistor1 08-28-06, 05:25 PM	So while there are difficulties, I think rulership of the Reaches is both possible and quite interesting. But I don't think the player will find that satisfactory. As a potential ir'Wynarn (should he become recognized and gain the surname), ruling a protectorate won't feed the ambition. He sounds like someone that wants to play with Kings, so that means Aundair, Thrane, Karrnath, or Breland. (No, the Mournland is nothing now, so unless he cleans it up and makes it arable, it wouldn't qualify.) I'm not saying that he couldn't become ruler of the Reaches, but I'm kinda convinced anyone could. If I were creating such a character as this (an illegitimate son of a King with a claim to the throne of Galifar), I wouldn't be happy with the Reaches as anything but a stepping stone to a more serious kingdom. Achieving the Reaches provides some military power that could be leveraged into conquering some parts of the world, but the Druids wouldn't go for anything more, and the rest of Galifar wouldn't see the PC as any more than a wannabe, no matter what his lineage was. If you can see a way to turn King of the Reaches into King of Aundair, then sure, start with the Reaches. Just don't treat that as a real kingdom, pretender, because there are only four of those left. "have him get to deal with an unleashed Overlord, bring the Ashbound to heel, and all sorts of other fun challenges!" These just wouldn't interest me. It doesn't get me anywhere nearer the throne of Galifar. Everyone knows Aundair is going to occupy the Reaches in the long run, so why go and get walked all over? The Reaches didn't rebel, they were abandoned by Aundair. They didn't seriously fight in the War. It's a dead end position, just waiting for retirement by a real nation.
Hellcow 08-28-06, 05:37 PM	But I don't think the player will find that satisfactory. Perhaps. Of course, neither of us know the player. In his original post, Charles mentioned the Reaches, Droaam, Darguun, Q'barra, and Xen'drik as possibilities... and of all of those, Q'barra is the only one where having Wyrnarn blood makes much of a difference. If the stated goal is "become king of a restored Galifar", I agree with you. But if the goal is simply "become a king in Eberron" - and if the nations listed above are considered satisfactory possibilities, even if only as start - I would begin with the Reaches. The Scottish example keeps coming up, and my point is that as a nation that has never had a true king, the Reaches gives the PC a chance to transform the Reaches into something new and to BE the first king... whereas if he pursues one of the Five Nations, he's in some ways burdened by all of the existing traditions. Furthermore, the character's mother was a druid FROM the Reaches... so he has as much of an ancestral tie to that land as he does to the Wyrnarn line. He may have ambitions that reach beyond the Woods, but it is a start; and if he attains power there, perhaps he CAN forge the nation into something quite different than it has been under Oalian, which seems to be what Charles has been suggesting.
Euangelion 08-28-06, 05:47 PM	(No, the Mournland is nothing now, so unless he cleans it up and makes it arable, it wouldn't qualify.) Just the crazy sort of thing the son of a druid looking for a nation to rule might be inclined to try.
Hellcow 08-28-06, 05:49 PM	I will note that I'm playing both sides of the fence here. I've said that as an invading force, the Reaches wouldn't be a strong match for Aundair. I've said that the Wardens wouldn't be terribly interested in an invasion. But all that is based on the nation as it is today. The main thing in my mind is that if Oalian fell and was replaced by a charismatic human leader, the Reaches are a land that COULD change... and change far more easily that the nations with centuries of established tradition. As things stand, the Reaches don't have an army organized or equipped to match that of Aundair. But if a new king can find the resources and inspire them, he could change that. It would certainly be a challenge; but we're talking about a land that has never had a king, and if he rises to that position he's already changing tradition. So if *I* were running the campaign, I'd see the Reaches as anything but a dead end. It would be work, and that's what I said about uniting the druid sects in the wake of Oalian's fall. But if it's the path the DM wants to take, I think you could certainly use the Reaches as a stepping stone... and personally, I'd be interested in seeing what natural magic COULD do if it was truly unleashed in war. An alliance of the western nations - the Reaches, Droaam, and the Shadow Marches - could be a very interesting force if the Last War began anew.
Charles Phipps 08-28-06, 05:55 PM	Its really the same as taking over anywhere. you need the appriopriate connections, the brute power and the cunning to do it. Also perhaps the luck. Just what those specific elements entail is relative to this world. This should be be considered the "signature line" of this thread :-)
Charles Phipps 08-28-06, 06:07 PM	[Edit: Note - I'm not saying Lord Darro has to be a villain, just that if you want him to this is one way he could be] Thanks Errant for your suggestions. I'm divided currently on what level to portray the man. Darro as Moriarty: Is essentially the place where he thinks he's playing a bigger chess game than he is. The Lords of Dust at his side is slowly weedling down his morality and manipulating resources. Darro thinks he's a genius but he doesn't even remotely approach a Millenium old immortal for skill at playing chess. Ultimately, Darro in this scenario will find himself the architect of several atrocities and rather than come clean may even try to defend them as he might be so throughly manipulated even he isn't aware he's not actually responsible. I can imagine his alignment slowly slipping towards the Lower Planes end of things as it occurs. If he leads Aundair to a crushing military defeat in the Reaches, then I expect he'll either commit suicide or probably spend the rest of his life locked up in a tower ala Elizabethan England. I can imagine that after such a disaster his power in the nation of Aundair will be broken. Darro as Misguided Fool: This option is less appealing to me as it essentially makes the players working to try to advert a war with Aundair and capture the real demonic culprits with Darro trying to turn around what his disaster might be. He might not even be the person responsible for assassinating Oalian and even if he did approve, the idea of releasing a Rajah is something he'd never approve of (being a wizard, he's no fool about matters arcane). In this ending, I'm inclined to have the Ashbound kill him Isildur style and essentially sneak across the border do a few hundred arrows into him. Effectively satisfying their need for vengeance. Either option leaves much of the status quo at the end of the mini-campaign intact except for the fact that the Reaches are now a Kingdom and may or may not have done considerable damage to Aundair's southern armies.
Melvin the Mediocre 08-28-06, 06:24 PM	Right from the start of this (very long) thread, I would have taken a very different approach. I think his best bet is to win the support of the existing nobles. First of all (and I may have missed this) does his father admit their relationship? If he does, his life of destiny is much more probable. I think he should do everything in his power to gete a solid backing from his father. Step two is to curry favor from the Queen of Audair. She's already nervous about this crazy "democracy" crap stirring up down south. Convince her that you would like to take the crown, and hint you might back her for the crown of Galifar and you've got foreign support for the Brelish crown. Does the queen have daughters? Marry one. Even if you don't get the Brelish Crown, Aundair might support you in claiming the Eldeen Reaches. Rekindle those old Aundarian ties. Find out who should be a ruling noble had the rebellion not happened. Show those country bumpkins all the wonderful marvels of modern magic they are missing out on. Get 'em really ticked off at the power hungry druids who are trying to rule the land, and show how they are like Thrane in their religious oppression. Full out warfare and conquest still unlikely? The Eldeen Reaches could be split again forming Western Aundair (a puppet kingdom) or Eastern Reaches. It's a big country. And want the ultimate trump card? Solve the mystery of the Day of Mourning. Promise that little gem of knowledge to any monarch who will back you. In short, don't rail against the Five Nations. Get them on your side. :cool:
Charles Phipps 08-28-06, 06:38 PM	Well, Jaela is 11 years old, and Aurala is already married, making both of them unavailable choices. Eh, marriage has never stopped one of my PCs. The damn Lyrander fellow can fall off a horse or something (I always wondered if he was just a consort and not an actual husband). And there's always the Queen of Thrane even if they have to overthrow Jaela for it. Good points though. The thing is that "Marry the Queen and become the King" *is* a far more common deal than "Marry the King and become the Queen", since historically and in fiction there tends to be this assumption that marrying the Queen and becoming the King gives you all the Queen's power and makes you a real ruler, while marrying the King and becoming the Queen makes you a pampered consort but not a political leader. An assumption that's understandable given the history of chauvenism in the history of the world but unrelated to my actual point. Note that it doesn't actually work like this in Eberron -- sovereignty can only be passed by blood, not marriage, hence Aurala's husband is her Prince-Consort but *not* the King. However, saying that marrying the Hags would give you the potential to become a national leader seems to be saying something more -- that the Hags are ready to abdicate or share their power with their husbands, which other female leaders like Aurala certainly cannot and do not do. It's actually a point of the fact that's reinforcing that my version of the Hags are attempting to live a fairy tale reality that is disturbing it's unreality. MY Hags I actually can best sum up by describing their castle as it appeared in previous games... "The home of the Daughters of Sora Kell is a bizarre retrofitted Dhakaani runion that seems in a perpetual state of reconstruction with the crude labor of the Bugbear carpenters attempting to replicate the soaring towers of Brelish architecture with the glorious bridges that are a staple of Aundair. The result is a garish mockery as it needs to have several parts torn down in order to make it more stable as it's clearly built from the specifications of what a fantasy story castle SHOULD look like as opposed to how an actual fortification should indeed look like." "The costumes of the guards that greet you is also somewhat bizarre as you've never seen a Troll wearing a Red Trenchcoat of the Brelish King Citadel and long Karrnath furry hat with decorative spears clearly made in immitation of Thrane. An Illithid in a tuxedo slithers over towards thee even as its clear from all of these tailored outfits and the look on their face that they are uncomfortable with their role." "The attempt to replicate 'civilization' in the land of the Savage only becomes more pronounced as you enter inside." Yeah, but the fact that they *are* disgusting monsters is the reason why marrying them is silly. It's not that they're not of noble blood -- it's that they're *monsters*. Next you'll be saying that if the Lord of Blades were to take on a random human wife his kingdom would be accepted, too. I never said it would work, its a point that the Hags want to have Handsome Princes and a Fairy Tale existence. Miscegenation is gross enough in Eberron, at least between the truly monstrous races and humans, that I think you'd freak people out by doing this. "Oh, a random adventurer married Sora Maenya. What horrid magic did she have to use to force him to do that?" Not "Oh, true love! They must be people after all." Hence, the tragedy of my portrayal actually. Instead of going with the "MacBeth" hags and Fates, I chose to essentially make the Hags the people cheated by fate and the most human of the human in Droam. The Hags naked desire to essentially live the lives of noblewomen coats much of their existence and yet they are NOT noblewomen or humans. Even those that attempt to 'humor them' often end up slipping and getting torn to pieces by their wrath. Part of it is based on the fact that I like the whole "Fairy" feel of Droam and work to make it essentially less of the Monster-Kingdom and more of a Grimm's Forrest brought to life. It may immitate (thanks to the Hags) pretensions of normal reality but like real legends of fey, everyone is inhuman. It also removes the whole Seelie court feel as the horrible and nightmarish is touted as beautiful. It's only at the Hags place that these attitudes everyone is fine with are rejected. There are other ways for the Hags to become seen as PEOPLE that don't involve them being lovesick damsels looking for swains. Generally, the way cultures like that have gotten respect from other nations has been by forcing it through military power. Droaam is already in a good place where diplomatic respect is, as long as they're powerful and dangerous enough to force people to respect them. In which case, where's the tragedy? So they're a bunch of nasty crones with incredible military muscle. Just another trio of would be Saurons. It was the whole feel of Eberron that essentially its wrong to look at the monsters as being just another group of nightmarish evildoers. I wanted to use the Hags as a gateway essentially that they were something more even as simultaneously the Hags are sort of pathetic by the standards of the other monsters (nevertheless whom are scared spitless by them). As stated, Keith has already convinced me otherwise of this but I rather liked it and it was effective for getting my point across while I was doing it. Ultimately, the idea is the PCs should pity the Hags for essentially being people whom don't want to be monsters but also recognize that they're still incredibly evil and powerful magicians that may be denied their dream but not to be taken lightly. Of course, I favor all of the rulers of thenations are a bit silly in their own way. (The players had to conduct an audience with Queen Aurala while she picked out shoes from 3000 pairs, King Boranal kept trying to sneak away from his duties to join the player's party, and Jaela's hat won't stay on because it's the previous Pontiff's hat----I favor a semi-humorous Eberron) In any case, become the Hags' consorts definitely ought not make you an actual political leader, not unless the Hags are willing to give *you* control over Droaam to make Droaam "legitimate" by giving it a human king. And if that's your take on it, I'm getting all the way off that bus. The Droaamites want respect, but as independent citizens of their own nation, not as yet another thrall of the human kingdoms. I wouldn't make Droaam a bunch of people who just want to be loved and get good jobs in Sharn any more than I'd write the Lord of Blades that way, for all that I do see the LoBster as a tragic, noble figure -- pathos is a hell of a lot more interesting when packaged with actual menace. In this respect, my interpretation is the Hags in this version would lavish attention on their new husband-consort and probably give them plenty of authority to do whatever they really want. The power would certainly lie with the Hags and the players would only be inheriting it but it's certainly a jump up from a position where nothing actually was the case. Even in real life, foreign rulers whom lose their native wives rarely maintain their power and position. But yes, in the semi-humor Eberron. I went with... Boranal: Dumb but lovable Adventurer type whom stinks at peacetime but was a great Theoden like Wartime King. Aurala: Seemingly vapid, Glinda esque, Fairy queen while secretly being the mistress of information and politics. Kaius: The only King whom possesses any sort of awe-inspiring presence yet being the guy whom through gritted teeth always advocates the right thing to do for the many. Jaela: A stoic, deadpanned, supergenius whom just happens to be irresistably cute and adorable despite herself. Daughters of Sora Kell: Women whom actively resent not being the Princess in a Fairy Tale and tend to treat their subordinates slightly better than Darth Vader. Merrix D'Cannith: Effectively, Eberron's Lex Luthor and always plotting some scheme to take over the world. Cardinal Kronzen: Tim Curry's Cardinal Richaeliu, only barely able to keep from talking his dastardly plans to himself. As stated, I don't attempt to forward my interpretations as canon. The Daughters business I actually just sort of let slip.
Melvin the Mediocre 08-28-06, 07:07 PM	Another angle I've been thinking of is to work with the Gatekeepers. I know they are a very small force in population, but I've always considered them extremely large on the influence side. I've always figured that a large part of the succession may have been led by the gatekeepers who were concerned for the safety of their seals. Following a King Arthur/Merlin approach which seems so appropriate in the Reaches, let druids discover the dangers of a land with out a king and a king with out a land. If you have read the Mists of Avalon, ther was a very interesting druidic marriage of the king to the land. The Dragon and the George also had a useful look at how to tie the power of a king and his nation together. So if the seals seem to be getting weaker and weaker, the PC's might uncover a bit of prophesy explaining the importance of a king, Son of Royalty and Nature. Now having the PC's discover the prophesy about themselves may be seen as suspiciously convienent, but then the game will be about him proving himself or the truthfulness of the prophesy.
Charles Phipps 08-28-06, 07:12 PM	A lot of people have been posting how one thing or another could not succeed at achieving his player's goal, but the groupmind hasn't been actually helping him achieve that goal. If Charles wants his player to have a chance, then what we need to be doing is figuring out how the player could achieve his goal. A most noble sentiment and a wonderful historically accurate post all there. As a note on the player character's legitimacy, the character has not yet been recognized as King Boranal's son directly by Boranal himself but already people know about him. His actual proof to the claim is the fact the player character is almost identical except for the fact he's a year or two older than the King's eldest son. It's one of those things that has caused more than a little bit of confusion whenever he shows up doing something heroic. I imagine several members of the Dark Lanterns have been dispatched to find out what the hell is going on with him I don't think the situation in Breland is very ripe for a change in monarchial succession though with the problems of Democracy, Multiple heirs, Strong Parliament, and the like making it so that whomever sits on the throne is not exactly going to be a matter of terribly great concern.
Charles Phipps 08-28-06, 07:17 PM	Interesting thread! But you missed the one place that a truly heroic and creative character could lay claim to and rule - the Mournland. As an interesting fact, the player characters managed to start a Cyrean branch of the Gatekeepers devoted to fighting the corruption in the Mournland by employing "Cleanse Soil" spells mixed with dispelling one evil spell after another and one monster after another. They're also working on special Druidic trees that absorb negative energy to grow and 'cleanse it.' Too high level to make many now but they have taken to planting the seeds of their successful ones. They also found and stopped a Rakashasa 'desertification' plot where the rain was kept from falling on Cyre.
Charles Phipps 08-28-06, 07:20 PM	So while there are difficulties, I think rulership of the Reaches is both possible and quite interesting. I heartily agree! It's also a land of reasonable mystery and expanionistic possibilities as well with heavens knows what is lying within the Shadow marches. Heck, the trade in Dragonshards could make it a very rich nation even without the logging everyone tries to take. Actually, I disagree on that last point. Ashbound? Absolutely. They already believe that arcane magic and civilization - both of which are embodied in Aundair - are negative influences, and see Oalian as a symbol of nature. If Aundair destroyed Oalian, I think you'd get a near-suicidal drive for vengeance. Yes, definitely seeing some possibilities for terroristic activities against the Aundarians. While I like the assassination of Lord Darro, its questionable what else might be done in revenge for the Treant. Some interesting possibilities if after the war or diplomatic end of the adventure the player characters have to work on trying to keep the Ashbound from disrupting further their relations. But the Children of Winter? I don't think they'd be that dramatic. First, Oalian isn't the leader of their sect. They respect him, but their greater ties are to the Gloaming. More important, the pillar of the philosophy of the Children of Winter is that death is inevitable. Oalian has been around for four thousand years. I feel that the average Child of Winter would simply say "He lived his span, and now it is done. Other trees will rise in the soil of the Greenheart, and in time another shall take his place." Without a strong leader to ride herd on them, they might increase their deadly activities... but I don't think vengeance would be their prime motivator. The political boundaries of the world are irrelevant to them; all nations will fall when the Great Winter comes. In fact, they would probably see Oalian's death as just another one of the signs that Winter is Nigh. Yeah, I'm too used to using the Children of Winter as the "crazy reactionary Druids." It's hard to remember that the Children of Winter have plenty of points to their belief structure even though it's more than a trifle nihilsitic. Oddly, it might be interesting to see their recruitment swell in the wake of Oalin's death as plenty of people see the end of one of the most stable parts of the world.
Hellcow 08-28-06, 08:16 PM	Oddly, it might be interesting to see their recruitment swell in the wake of Oalin's death as plenty of people see the end of one of the most stable parts of the world. Seems reasonable to me!
Thanqol 08-28-06, 08:28 PM	Boranal: Dumb but lovable Adventurer type whom stinks at peacetime but was a great Theoden like Wartime King. Aurala: Seemingly vapid, Glinda esque, Fairy queen while secretly being the mistress of information and politics. Kaius: The only King whom possesses any sort of awe-inspiring presence yet being the guy whom through gritted teeth always advocates the right thing to do for the many. Jaela: A stoic, deadpanned, supergenius whom just happens to be irresistably cute and adorable despite herself. Daughters of Sora Kell: Women whom actively resent not being the Princess in a Fairy Tale and tend to treat their subordinates slightly better than Darth Vader. Merrix D'Cannith: Effectively, Eberron's Lex Luthor and always plotting some scheme to take over the world. Cardinal Kronzen: Tim Curry's Cardinal Richaeliu, only barely able to keep from talking his dastardly plans to himself. Those are wonderful interperitations! I might borrow a few for my game.
Charles Phipps 08-28-06, 08:29 PM	As for the Wardens? I think you'd see a schism. You would have some who would join with the Ashbound in search of vengeance. But again, this quest for vengeance really goes against the principles of the Wardens, and those principles define their lives and culture. I think they would want to ensure that such a thing would never happen again; but I also think they would seek to find out EXACTLY who was responsible for Oalian's death, not simply blame all of Aundair. Again, in the original secession of the Reaches, they emerged to defend farmers who were then citizens of Aundair. They don't want innocents to suffer for the crimes of their rulers, and that's what would happen in open war. That's true enough. They might be far more interested in what Oalian's death is a prelude to rather than actually being concerned about the matter at hand. It's an interesting matter all round. It's interesting to note that as you indicated, the majority of Wardens might be suspicious of any person outside of their knowledge that claims to be Oalian's chosen successor. Especially if he isnt' a Warden himself or Druid. Again, I'd have to disagree. At the time of secession, the Reachers saw Oalian as, effectively, their savior; he was the one who sent his warriors to protect them, asking nothing in return, when they had been abandoned. For the children born since then, he is a mythic figure, and most feel it is his power that defends the Reaches from their enemies. They may have never SEEN him, but that's part of the point; he's a legend, the next best thing to a god to them. I think the death of Oalian would be a tremendous psychological blow to the typical commoner, and that you'd actually be much MORE likely to see rage from the farmer than the ranger. Again, the Wardens practice a doctrine focused on defending the innocent and not simply practicing vengeance. The commoners respect those traditions and follow the basics, but don't have that same devotion... so they can certainly give in to their outrage! Well at the very least these are going to be interesting times with the people definitely willing to make their will known. Easy recruitment if an actual army is going to be made for the people of the Eldeen Reaches, though I doubt it'll be a particularly effective one. Which is an entirely different scenario. My point is that the Reachers are strong on their home ground, but would be weak as an invading force. Provoking an Aundairian attack would be fine, especially if Thrane took advantage of it. Nevertheless, possibly one that could be well effective in defeating any force that comes into the reaches. I'm curious how Thrane might take advantage of the matter though even though it'll be interesting to see if another invasion and defeat results in finally the Aundarians giving up on it as a province of Aundair (the people of Khovaire are a very stubborn lot as we've seen) or it forces them to the bargaining table yet again. If they wanted to argue semantics, it might be they consider the Treaty only binding to the Reaches as long as Oalian was alive. Or, Aurala recognizing a bad situation when it occurs, might try to win through honey and offer a formal alliance or marriage gift (if she has any available noblewomen of close kinship). Better to have them on their side than against after all. These just wouldn't interest me. It doesn't get me anywhere nearer the throne of Galifar. Everyone knows Aundair is going to occupy the Reaches in the long run, so why go and get walked all over? The Reaches didn't rebel, they were abandoned by Aundair. They didn't seriously fight in the War. It's a dead end position, just waiting for retirement by a real nation. An interesting summation of the situation though getting through the front door is the main problem I think and the Eldeen Reaches are nothing to sneeze at I believe despite what people might have mentioned. Being King of Scotland may not be the equivalent of being King of England but it's certainly different than being king of present day Monte Carlo too ;-) Perhaps. Of course, neither of us know the player. In his original post, Charles mentioned the Reaches, Droaam, Darguun, Q'barra, and Xen'drik as possibilities... and of all of those, Q'barra is the only one where having Wyrnarn blood makes much of a difference. If the stated goal is "become king of a restored Galifar", I agree with you. But if the goal is simply "become a king in Eberron" - and if the nations listed above are considered satisfactory possibilities, even if only as start - I would begin with the Reaches. The Scottish example keeps coming up, and my point is that as a nation that has never had a true king, the Reaches gives the PC a chance to transform the Reaches into something new and to BE the first king... whereas if he pursues one of the Five Nations, he's in some ways burdened by all of the existing traditions. Furthermore, the character's mother was a druid FROM the Reaches... so he has as much of an ancestral tie to that land as he does to the Wyrnarn line. He may have ambitions that reach beyond the Woods, but it is a start; and if he attains power there, perhaps he CAN forge the nation into something quite different than it has been under Oalian, which seems to be what Charles has been suggesting. Well spoken Magic Cow Disease Bringer ;-) (I'm working on odd titles of referring to you O'line head)
Errant 08-28-06, 09:27 PM	Just as an observation, with the character's history in mind, it's my belief that he could absolutely become leader of the Eldeen Reaches... provided that he either has Oalian's support, Oalian dies, or preferably both. There is another option: Oalian is a 4,000 year old tree. He (it?) has been very active for a tree over the last few decades/milenia, but what if he's feeling the pull of the years and is starting to succumb to his age. If he senses that he will be unable to continue his current/previous level of activity, he could seek out a champion to protect the land and its people while he rests. He's still there, he can still be called upon in a major crisis, but the day to day tending to the needs of those under his care could be shared with someone suitably trustworthy. Ideally someone with a respectable bloodline, a heritage of noble rulership, and a true commitment to caring for their subjects just as Oalian has cared for them. The more I consider the possibilities for the Eldeen Reaches, the more I like it. In other nations you have entrenched nobility and alliances that are going to take a lot of manipulation to win over for anyone but the most obvious, legitimate heirs. In the 'Reaches, an individual's heart and deeds are much more important. If you (and your players of course) LIKE political intrigue, go with Kreistor's excellent suggestions. If you're more into straight out heroic fantasy, the Eldeen Reaches is the place to go. Thanks Errant for your suggestions. I'm divided currently on what level to portray the man. You're very welcome Charles, I've always enjoyed tweaking a story and your ideas triggered some of my own. Here's a question though: do you *need* to decide how to portray Lord Darro right from the beginning? Whether you decide he's Moriaty or Misguided, there's a good chance perceptive players will pick up on your attitude at the game table. If you reserve judgement until later in the campaign, if you let Darro's nature develop in response to the PCs' activities, you leave yourself more flexibility AND your players will have a harder time deciding themselves whether he is ally or enemy, victim or culprit. That could make them face some tough moral ambiguity and choices that seem to me a hallmark of a good Eberron campaign.
Hellcow 08-28-06, 11:56 PM	There is another option... He's still there, he can still be called upon in a major crisis, but the day to day tending to the needs of those under his care could be shared with someone suitably trustworthy. Actually, this is essentially the idea suggested all the way back in message #10. ;) Oalian dying is one option, but he could certainly endorse the PC without dying. Setting all other things aside, he rarely leaves the Greenheart; as I said, the people of the farmlands have in all likelihood never seen him. Now that the borderlands are part of the Reaches, it certainly makes sense to have a leader who can move among the people, and guide them directly. He doesn't even have to slip into a coma; he can just feel that the people need a leader who can move among them, and who is one of them. If he's alive, I think it would actually be far easier for a PC to assume control; if anything the reason to have him die would be because it's almost TOO easy if Oalian just hands over the reins. With Oalian out of the picture completely, even if he has endorsed the PC you can still have challengers who refuse to believe or accept it. If you do go the "tree in a trance" route, it essentially makes him a Merlin figure; he has great power and knowledge, but it's only available when he wakes up to provide a plot hook. Ideally someone with a respectable bloodline, a heritage of noble rulership, and a true commitment to caring for their subjects just as Oalian has cared for them. My only point of contention is the word "respectable" (assuming you mean in terms of social status as opposed to some sort of magical significance). I'm with you on hearts and deeds; I see Oalian endorsing the PC because he's the right person for the job, not because of the status of his family. If anything, Oalian may like him because his bloodline isn't pure and "respectable"... following the theme that hybrids can be healthier than isolated purebred lines, the fact that the PC blends the blood of the Reaches with the blood of the south may be preferable to some pureblooded noble. His Wyrnarn blood may be critical as he starts dealing with other nations, but I don't see Oalian as being swayed by it... UNLESS you do take a "Divine Right" approach and say that there IS a mystical power in the Wyrnarn line, and destinies that can only be fulfilled by those with the blood of kings. But even there, I'd make his bastard blood a plus to Oalian, not a minus... the blood of the woods and the bloodline of kings joined together. (Essentially, Jon Snow.)
Errant 08-29-06, 01:14 AM	My only point of contention is the word "respectable" (assuming you mean in terms of social status as opposed to some sort of magical significance)... Ultimately, "respectable" in this area means whatever Oalian (or the DM) wants it to mean. I'm not even sure I had a specific meaning in mind when I first used the word, other than perhaps a stereotypical royal bloodline prestige. In the case of the PC in question (royal bastard AND son of a druid) his bloodline on both sides could be in his favor. Whether people feel there is magic in the royal bloodline, or just that members of the family tend to share certain personality traits, I doubt having rulers in your ancestory will work against you if you are rising to power yourself. Especially in combination with heroic deeds etc. I think its worth distinguishing "respectable" from "politically correct" or "convenient" though. Its more about what the PC may inherit from his parents/forefathers than about how much other rulers/nobles will think of him. Even those who don't like his parentage are going to take him a little bit more seriously than just some anonymous sheepfarmer's kid. Otherwise though, I'm completely agree with your comments Hellcow.
Charles Phipps 08-29-06, 01:42 AM	Well I pretty much have my Eldeen Reaches' mini-campaign set out and tonight we're going to start on it.
Charles Phipps 08-29-06, 05:23 AM	The Shortest Campaign I've run to completion Game is just finishing up. Really late and very successful. Longest game session ever I believe. Oddly, one of the shorter ADVENTURES let alone campaigns I've run as it was all in one session. For those whom are interested. Here's the summary of the session... The game started off with the players being invited to the Sisters of Sora Kell's home in a former Dhakaani ruin, the players essentially were told that they were the keys to a prophecy of the ancient world and that they would benefit tremendously. However, it would be a destiny accompanied by the suffering of tremendous numbers of people. It was suitably effective in this game even as I had one of the Hags serve as a Crone, another a Matronly figure, and another a beautiful Maiden. The players were then invited to a Ball of Lord Dharro as essentially he wants the players to serve as neutral diplomats between Aundair and the Eldeen Reaches. We meet Darro's new mistress at the time in Lady Dokku (Poison) whom also seduced one of the player characters in a surprising development. A succubus, Lady Dokku has been slowly eating at Darro's ambitions this entire time and is supposedly a sorceress of tremendous skill but no formal education. Aurala oddly contacts the Bard PC during this time and basically offered to recognize his title to King Boranal and his place as a member of the Ir'Wynarn lineage if he swore allegiance to Aundair to become one of her Royal Eyes. What she really wants of course is the player character to spy on what Dharro has planned, to serve as a diplomat to the Reaches after this, and to tweak Boranal's nose a bit by embarrassing Breland with his illegimate offspring that's technically his firstborn. The player graciously refused even as he was surprisingly subtle enough to say he'd still tell her everything that went on at the conference. She's doubly nervous because her exiled first born son will also be attending as a show of good faith. Aurala knows that Dharro won't try anything during this time because of it....or so she thinks. Lord Dharro also provides them a box containing a spell created by the Lords of Dust to kill Oalian. This was given an obvious lie to cover it up but the PCs were unable to break it open and couldn't think of a way to get rid of it diplomatically. They had sadly played Final Fantasy 2 and knew something as likely up with it. The player characters then attend the council with Oalian and the great leaders of the Woods as it's clear there's some serious tension going on. Basically, Dharro has openly been framing his own nation for acts of war and cruelty in the region with his mercenaries but leaving the channels unable to be traced back to Aundair in order to arrange this peace conference. I introduce at this time the player character's stepfather whom was the husband of the woman whom bore him. Effectively, we find out the Bard's mother was chosen to be Grand Druid before she birthed Boranal's child and was voted over for her now estranged husband. Some fairly obvious tension with the bard that Oalian himself defuses as he invites the character up to answer seven questions on what makes a good ruler. The character answered remarkably well oddly. The killing spell goes off though and strikes Oalian halfway through the conference and slays him. Oalian then says effectively with his dying words that the true enemy is not the Aundarians but a force far more insidious behind them. Nevertheless, the Ashbound's representative is so incised that he runs through the heir of Aundair where he stands. All to Dharro's plans and there's almost certainly war on the horizon. Nevertheless, the Druid sects (minus the Children of Winter whom have their own plans) name the Bard reluctantly their King with an impromptu crowning despite themselves. Meanwhile, back in Aundair, Dharro poisons Aurala and claims to the people she's sick with grief over her son's death. Dharro also slays the third member of the Triumviante of Aundair in Lord Adal. Dokku assumes the incarnation of his mistress (Aundair is a libertine place) and he dies in bed of seemingly natural causes. For all intents and purposes, the now insane Dharro is King. He orders preparations for an Eldeen Reaches campaign as he expects Breland's help in the matter. The Bard player character decides to do what I expected him to do and does a once over Eldeen Reaches defenses before telling everyone to effectively get prepared while doing the Seven Samurai thing of having the experienced warriors prepare the people to defend their homes since it won't be a small excursion by Aundair. He furthermore knows (suspects) that the Aundair troops will be ordered to commit atrocities to make examples of the city if a Lord of Dust is truly behind this. Using his Bardic abilities to sway many, he decides to do a pre-emptive strike against Southern Aundair. Something sounding suicidal but the player character essentially stated he'd strike against where Aundair would least expect an attack and with concentrated druid power linked together, they destroy the Academy of Magic in a victory that I ruled was primarily made by most of the battle wizards being assembled elsewhere, Druids combining their magic into one titanic strike, and the player being oddly generous as he stated that everyone whom stood down would be spared. I ruled that much of their magical items had still been there and that was a titanic blow to their military machine. The game came to a rather short end as instead of essentially running a long campaign against the Aundarian forces to move them back and forth, the player characters snuck behind enemy lines as they did the "Cossack dance" with the Wardens around Aundair's forces before bringing one of the Druids to Queen Aurala's location and slew Lady Dokku along with her Rakashasa warrior minions. Then, they healed her of her ailment before explaining the situation. Suddenly bestowed with free will again, Lord Darro became utterly clueless as to what's going on and the Bard PC capitalizes on this to send some false messangers that Lady Dokku was wounded and needed him. Lord Darro, still under heavy charm, rushes back to Aundair only to get taken out by the PCs working with the Ashbound to take their revenge. From that point on it was simply a matter of the PCs holding position until the Aundarians got their order to retreat. (The Brelish reinforcements that they were defending on to smash the Eldeen Reaches forces in one fell swoop were intercepted by the forces of Droam whom intend to protect the Ancient Gatekeepers seals by making sure they're not trampled over. It proves a disaster for Breland but one they can be face-saving about by having Boranal recognize his son as King and thus it impossible to go with war him over despite his alliance with Aundair) The PC I'm debating comitted an evil act or not since he still ordered the Wardens to harry the Aundarians the entire way through their retreat. He explained his rationale was that they were still invaders and it sent a strong message that the reaches were not any weaker than before Oalian's death. Now I have to figure out what next with Aurala now lacking her major heir yet simultaneously now the sole power in Aundair.
Prince Indirian 08-29-06, 08:32 AM	Your campaigns seem to be so grandios, damn. Making the players feel like PLAYERS (read:movers and shakers in Eberron). Cool...
Joni-san 08-29-06, 09:13 AM	Jaela: A stoic, deadpanned, supergenius whom just happens to be irresistably cute and adorable despite herself. Penguin aerobics? A cookie to the one who gets this one :P
Euangelion 08-29-06, 09:42 AM	Actually, this is essentially the idea suggested all the way back in message #10. ;) Oalian dying is one option, but he could certainly endorse the PC without dying. Setting all other things aside, he rarely leaves the Greenheart; as I said, the people of the farmlands have in all likelihood never seen him. Now that the borderlands are part of the Reaches, it certainly makes sense to have a leader who can move among the people, and guide them directly. He doesn't even have to slip into a coma; he can just feel that the people need a leader who can move among them, and who is one of them. If he's alive, I think it would actually be far easier for a PC to assume control; if anything the reason to have him die would be because it's almost TOO easy if Oalian just hands over the reins. With Oalian out of the picture completely, even if he has endorsed the PC you can still have challengers who refuse to believe or accept it. Another option would be to split the difference. Say Oalian dies, leaving a leadership vacuum. IIRC, the ECS hints that Oalian may not be the only awakened tree in the grove. Perhaps there's a younger greatpine who would naturally (:rimshot: ) succeed Oalian, but that he/she would prefer to concentrate on spiritual issues. Therefore the new high druid would seek out a person to serve as a leader "who could move about the people." The crisis of Oalian's passing opens up an opportunity for new structures of leadership to emerge. Ironically, it would be the opposite direction that Thrane has been taking.
Hellcow 08-29-06, 12:34 PM	Even those who don't like his parentage are going to take him a little bit more seriously than just some anonymous sheepfarmer's kid. My only point is that while this is generally true, I think there are many in the Eldeen Reaches who will have more respect for the son of a sheep farmer than the son of a king, especially an ir'Wynarn king. Remember that the Reaches were formed because the people felt abandoned by... an ir'Wynarn noble. I don't think this will work against the PC, especially with the druid blood on the other side, but I don't see the blood of kings as carrying much weight in the Reaches. In that same original post, you said "in the 'Reaches, an individual's heart and deeds are much more important"... and in my mind, that's the critical factor. IIRC, the ECS hints that Oalian may not be the only awakened tree in the grove. I don't recall if he's the only one in the Greenheart or not, and I don't have the book in front of me, but there are certainly other awakened trees in the Towering Woods... just without his history or power, so yes, you could have a new Junior Guardian Tree stepping up to fill the void in the Greenheart, and serving to advise the PC. In any case, sounds like you had an exciting adventure, CP - let us know how it goes from here!
Charles Phipps 08-29-06, 06:07 PM	Penguin aerobics? A cookie to the one who gets this one :P Actually, Ruri from Nadesico. ;-) But I did have fun where the player characters played ball and knocked her senseless one time.
Errant 08-29-06, 09:16 PM	My only point is that while this is generally true, I think there are many in the Eldeen Reaches who will have more respect for the son of a sheep farmer than the son of a king, especially an ir'Wynarn king. Remember that the Reaches were formed because the people felt abandoned by... an ir'Wynarn noble. I don't think this will work against the PC, especially with the druid blood on the other side, but I don't see the blood of kings as carrying much weight in the Reaches. In that same original post, you said "in the 'Reaches, an individual's heart and deeds are much more important"... and in my mind, that's the critical factor. I agree with this 100% and if I sounded like I was focusing more on the ir'Wynarn blood that was poor presentation rather than meaning. The PC's druidic parentage would naturally (excuse the pun) be more important to many/most Eldeen Reachers.
Joni-san 08-30-06, 01:25 PM	Ah darn, I got it wrong. Then again I haven't seen Nadeisco (sadly)
Charles Phipps 08-30-06, 02:20 PM	Chiyo-chans a good substitute. You can just imagine all the ways adventurers might traumatize the Pontiff. In any case, the adventure in the Eldeen Reaches has turned out quite well and I'm inclined to make sure that Aundair is predisposed towards signing a peaceful accord. My take is that Aurala knows that war is simply a larger part of politics so she doesn't particularly blame them for any of the disasters befalling the realm. Instead, Aurala has decided to offer the Eldeen Reaches a military alliance accompanied by the offer of a marriage pact (I'm not sure how high she intends to make it) to her late brother's daughter. The Alliance she hopes will include that the King of the Reaches would pay homage to the Emperor of Galifar if/when such a figure should happen to emerge. I.e. Aurala is thinking long term and notes that the bard has a semi-legitimate claim to the throne of the Old Empire now, she intends to head that off at the pass by essentially making it so that the Reaches would become a vassal state again simply by her achieving her aims. Plus, a military alliance would provide all the benefits of the Reaches as allies and a defense buffer between Breland/Aundair without actually any of the downsides. It's a long shot but its possible the player might accept such an alliance. At this point, the player character is getting ready for semi-retirement and we're going to spend the next couple of sessions getting him prepared for it. Mostly, we're just going to be setting up whom his friends are and how the political situation has changed. Aundair's in a pretty bad position with Thrane smelling blood with the destruction of the magician's academy and the thousands of deaths in their army. The only reason they haven't invaded was that the war lasted only three weeks and inflicted only minimal causalties compared to what it might have. Currently, I'm now focused on my next arc which will be set in Karrnath.
Splendide 08-30-06, 07:18 PM	If you do go the "tree in a trance" route, it essentially makes him a Merlin figure; he has great power and knowledge, but it's only available when he wakes up to provide a plot hook.I would've said Vito Corleone, but that works too :D
Charles Phipps 09-22-06, 02:41 PM	I'm finally getting to resolve a game that I had plans for some time ago. It's basis is a mixture of the Odyssey, The Fugitive, and The Count of Monte Cristo. The character concept is a bit of an amusing one that has allowed plenty of sidequests and enjoyable gaming. Basically, the character is a prisoner in a secret prison in the Eldeen Reaches run by individuals that the player character does not know the identity of. All that he knows is that he's spent the last ten years (that he remembers) imprisoned in deplorable conditions (as if there's any other kind in Medieval Prisons) and only by chance made it out. Since then, the character has spent the past three years of game time in a quest to and fro across Khovaire trying to reunite with his wife. He's had a bit of difficulty with this since he doesn't remember his name, his wife's name, what country he's from, or anything but extremely vague details about his life. The character thrives on pure desperation, rage, and an occasionally pathetic desire to just get "home." I used this as a justification for giving him the Barbarian class with the cavaet the man is from a civilized region but goes into psychotic frenzies when he's provoked beyond all reason. The character has been dogged by assassins, fanatic duelist nobles that kill themselves before revealing information, and at one point Merrix D'Cannith took an interest in the character. The character was captured, strapped to machines, and subjected to rather brutal tortures and psychic torment before he broke free and ended the Baron in this campaign world. In one of the curious aspects of the game, the DM has chosen not to be the one to reveal things with the ultimate 'realization' of whom he is and where he's from now being allowed to him. He's stated I have a free hand to develop the backstory as I see fit with the hint that he wouldn't mind if the character is revealed to Eberron's already confirmed Man in the Iron Mask of Karrnath. I'm inclined to have him be Kaius the Third though unless I really have a good emotional arc to go along with it. Also, I have no idea how to make the politics work (also, two kings in one party is a bit much even though I'm not Dming this one but its the same universe) I'd appreciate any ideas. I'm currently toying with at least one idea that when he gets back to his home, we'll not have the Gulliver or Odysseus moment where he's tearfully reunited with his wife (that he's remained faithful too despite ample opportunity) and instead have her taken the normal route of War widows and remarried. (It seems the most sadistic thing I can do to the poor guy whom is already a candidate for "What does not kill us makes us stronger"'s picture next to him) But how to RPG that out is a tough call