How to get to level 20 without being a mass murderer... [Archive] - Wizards Community

How to get to level 20 without being a mass murderer... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Joseph Amarillo
05-09-04, 09:19 AM One of the things that I hate the most about the standard D&D campaign (the dungeon crawl) is that by the time your characters reach level 20, they're already mass murderers. Yes, most of these would be orcs, goblins, ogres, and the like, but killing is killing.

Of course, we could always run D&D the way we like, but it would help if the Eberron Campaign Setting actually encourages the type of roleplaying that me and my friends like.

We prefer a campaign with more noncombat encounters and fewer but more "cinematic" combat encounters. When I say "cinematic", I'm talking about encounters which have a potentially large impact on the adventure...

An example of a cinematic combat encounter is a fight with hijackers on a Lightning Train (sorry if I used the wrong name). There are lots of civilians onboard, the hijackers and heavily armed, and they're trying to derail the train!

An example of a noncinematic combat encounter is a fight against a small group of orcs (standard monsters set against low level parties). Well, you get the idea... This is the type of combat encounter found in large amounts in the typical D&D campaign.

So, what do you think?
jedi8187
05-09-04, 09:38 AM I'd like to see this encourgaed as well. It is so much more fun when your not just hack-slashing through whatever. And one way I encourage this type of adventure when I DM is reward exp., I award them for good roleplaying and for situations they find a way to handle without killing things. But sometimes you just have to fight.
Brastan
05-09-04, 03:58 PM If you want to avoid heavy bloodshed then its important to remember the other options for giving out Exp. One is the ad-hock DM award for good RPing. This is usually is iffy and can be affected by DM favoritism(in my experience). The second method and the one I like is the story award (see DMG 3 or 3.5 some where in it). This is usually some fraction of the Parties level which grows as they grow. Common first level story ward is 200 Exp per adventurer. Third, remember that Exp given for encounters is for challenges overcome not monsters kill like in previous editions. Those bandits don't necessarily have to be killed to gain Exp. They could be incapacitated, negotiated with, or helped (What am I thinking, evil campaign get out of my head).

Here's another Idea. Tie larger wards of Exp to the use of Action points on standard skill checks. For example instead of rolling under the bandits legs spend an action point to do a jumping sliding instead and gain Exp = 10/every 5 points by which the check succeeds. You'll have adventures doing crazy things not involving killing right and left.
protonik
05-10-04, 12:17 AM The Dragonlance book presents a system of Role playing awards based on noncombat awards, personal goals achieved and mission goals that looks quite nice...

Jason
Plane Sailing
05-10-04, 04:23 AM Call of Cthulhu d20 has an excellent system for assigning story awards.

In a nutshell:

Choose 4-8 story goals for an adventure. Each story goal ought to have a verb like discover, survive, find, bypass or whatever... the best idea is to pick things that don't railroad one particular means of resoluton (e.g. "obtain the silver chalice from the dragon" could be done by killing the dragon, by stealing it from him or by negotiating with him)

Successful completion of each story goal is worth 300xparty level xps, divided by the number of participants (can't remember if that is exactly right) - basically to ensure that a party will gain a level for every 13.3 story goals achieved.
About Yea High
05-10-04, 06:46 PM This is actually one of the reasons why I believe Eberron will be attractive to a plethora of folk.

Want traditional hack-n-slap? The DM can run you to Xen'drik, a virtual continent of buried civilizations, tombs, and classic adventures.

Want a dark noir mystery? The city of Sharn with its multiple levels and towers, dark alleys, and soaring skyways. The murder may take place in the bowels of the city - but the scumbag that hired the killer may live in posh comfort.

Heck, there are all sorts of different adventure angles as I see it.

What if your knight of Thrane falls for an Aundair noblewoman? What if she won't convert to the Silver Flame? What if you crossed swords with her brother during the Last War?

(Worse, what if you didn't recognize him until he wore his ceremonial armor at the wedding?)

A million possibilities.

Eberron is "our" D&D because it's everyone's D&D. Plain and simple - it's D&D.

Yea
WilliamPall
05-11-04, 01:19 AM Originally posted by About Yea High
What if your knight of Thrane falls for an Aundair noblewoman? What if she won't convert to the Silver Flame? What if you crossed swords with her brother during the Last War?

(Worse, what if you didn't recognize him until he wore his ceremonial armor at the wedding?)

[devilish grin]Oh, I'll have to use that. [/devilish grin]
The White Sorcerer
05-11-04, 02:11 AM Originally posted by About Yea High
Want traditional hack-n-slap? The DM can run you to Xen'drik, a virtual continent of buried civilizations, tombs, and classic adventures.

Want a dark noir mystery? The city of Sharn with its multiple levels and towers, dark alleys, and soaring skyways. The murder may take place in the bowels of the city - but the scumbag that hired the killer may live in posh comfort.

Actually, I figure you could just stay in Sharn for both types of adventure. Remember the two cities Sharn was built on? Not places I'd hang out in without proper dungeoneering gear.
Andre La Roche
05-11-04, 02:25 AM Originally posted by WilliamPall
[devilish grin]Oh, I'll have to use that. [/devilish grin]

You're not the only one who will!
Joseph Amarillo
05-11-04, 02:26 AM Take note that I'm not trying to encourage noncombat campaigns here... After all, D&D is NOT a soap opera...

Maybe we should organize a "Fewer but more Cinematic Combat Encounters Foundation"? This would allow DMs like me to get together to share ideas on how to handle the "Fewer but more cinematic combat encounters" approach.

Currently, I'm not sure how to handle this approach with the standard D&D party of adventurers. In the campaign I'm planning to run, the characters will be members of a law-enforcement organization (similar to the FBI/CIA). Because they're part of the law enforcement, this should keep them from lobbing indiscriminate fireballs...
Brastan
05-11-04, 05:00 AM I'm not sure how to handle this approach with the standard D&D party of adventurers.

It's relatively easy actually. Provide only big opponents near the end of the adventure. This works well if the Players except this style of play, which is the important point. If both DM and Players are okay with this and understand what's happening it should be fun. Instead of providing several small encounters lump it all together for a big one. Most encounters are equal to the party level giving you 4 or so encounters before the PCs should be out of steam. Proved an encounter that is equal to or slightly less then 4*the parties average level. This will push Players and there characters to their limits and provide epic stories for nights to come. (trust me on this one, I had a DM who did this, but he would string 2 or 3 of them together. My fellow adventures were very battered by the end of the day. Only we go up the next day and did it again. We ran away a lot, then came back and burned everything to the ground.)

Just use one of these encounters and it should work out fine.
fearsome_fey
05-11-04, 04:50 PM Originally posted by Joseph Amarillo
Maybe we should organize a "Fewer but more Cinematic Combat Encounters Foundation"? This would allow DMs like me to get together to share ideas on how to handle the "Fewer but more cinematic combat encounters" approach.

check out the addition to my signature.

i will also be starting a thread in a non-eberron specific board for suggestions along these lines
Joseph Amarillo
05-12-04, 08:14 AM Nice! Check out my signature, too! :)

What I want to know is whether the book itself will encourage this type of campaign. Hellcow, where art thou?

HEY... That rhymes! :D
Moonlion
05-12-04, 08:17 PM The problem with encouraging that type of play is that it can be seen as discouraging other styles of play.

To have the most appeal, the thing to do is to give all players and DMs the tools they need to play the type of game they individually want to play, regardless of style.
fearsome_fey
05-13-04, 12:20 PM Originally posted by Moonlion
The problem with encouraging that type of play is that it can be seen as discouraging other styles of play.

of course, but that is always the problem when anyone is too adamant for any particular cause, example: there is a billboard in columbus ohio(where i live) that says, and i quote,

"feeding kids meat is child abuse"

now, this billboard offends me, just like a DM that loves pulp/noir would be offended if his player's characters started to randomly kill people and ran into every hole in the ground they could find, looking for a dungeon.

Originally posted by Moonlion
[B]To have the most appeal, the thing to do is to give all players and DMs the tools they need to play the type of game they individually want to play, regardless of style.

now then. hopefully keith was smart enough to put a chapter[or sub-chapter] into the CSB, future articlles in Dragon mag., or perhaps some supplimentary stuff that had suggestions to DMs on what to do if they wanted a particular type of play. [e.g. if you want style X, then stick your characters in area Y, and they might{with DM license of course} run into situations A, B, and C]
Penemue
05-14-04, 03:21 AM just like a DM that loves pulp/noir would be offended if his player's characters started to randomly kill people and ran into every hole in the ground they could find, looking for a dungeon.

The Children... Won't somebody Please think of the Children!

All I could think of after reading the subject of this Post were thousands of Kobold children who grew up to kobold adults with a fire in their little dark hearts burning for the hapless PC's that killed their Daddy.

Or Ogre... Orc... Minotaur... Illithid... you get the point.

Somewhere out there... In somebody's campaign world is a Concerned Committee of Denizens of the Underdark (or C.C.D.U as their cards and placards read.) that are plotting some groups undoing.
Azual
05-15-04, 06:57 PM i have to say the way i give non-killing exprewards is i have something akin to the morrowind guild system.
I have a quest giver in a centralized location and basically, i send them out on a series of quests. after every quest i give them an exp reward just for doing the quest, even if it was "go find this book" after about three quests, they get a promotion and more exp. bottom line, you have minimal encounters but you are learning the urban style of play and are getting just as much exp as hack-and-slash group.
Harmony's Sorrow
05-15-04, 07:07 PM Hmm... thinking pulp/noir again... a lot of intrigue, subterfuge, and espionage adventures seem like they'll be the heart of Eberron campaigning... that in mind, MASS MURDERERS MY HAIRY ASS!!! Get real... would the clever spy rather leave a guard unconscious and concealed, and if he gets caught the dude may want to hit him a few times... or kill these guards and go through who knows how much worse? And with all the political nation vs nation in Eberron, killing a sentry to gain access to confidential spell research or something for your king, country etc... that's not evil or mass murdering! That's patriotism.

And so, since you started this thread... you scare me if that's the frame of reference your game uses.
Joseph Amarillo
05-17-04, 08:36 AM To Harmony's Sorrow:

:D Well... Killing a lone sentry to gain access to vital information is not as bad as killing an entire community of orcs/ogres/giants/whatever and looting their homes for gold...

Actually, I wanted to remove the stereotype of D&D being a game where you have to kill lots of monsters just to level up. There are actually players who think that you have to kill monsters to gain XP (players of computer RPGs are often guilty of this... I was guilty of this, too...).

The bad thing is that the core 3.5 rules still seem to encourage the killing of monsters in order to gain XP. Just look at the DMG and the MM! Notice the amount of attention given to combat related stuff (encounter levels, challenge ratings, monster tactics, etc.)?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Joseph Amarillo 05-09-04, 09:19 AM	One of the things that I hate the most about the standard D&D campaign (the dungeon crawl) is that by the time your characters reach level 20, they're already mass murderers. Yes, most of these would be orcs, goblins, ogres, and the like, but killing is killing. Of course, we could always run D&D the way we like, but it would help if the Eberron Campaign Setting actually encourages the type of roleplaying that me and my friends like. We prefer a campaign with more noncombat encounters and fewer but more "cinematic" combat encounters. When I say "cinematic", I'm talking about encounters which have a potentially large impact on the adventure... An example of a cinematic combat encounter is a fight with hijackers on a Lightning Train (sorry if I used the wrong name). There are lots of civilians onboard, the hijackers and heavily armed, and they're trying to derail the train! An example of a noncinematic combat encounter is a fight against a small group of orcs (standard monsters set against low level parties). Well, you get the idea... This is the type of combat encounter found in large amounts in the typical D&D campaign. So, what do you think?
jedi8187 05-09-04, 09:38 AM	I'd like to see this encourgaed as well. It is so much more fun when your not just hack-slashing through whatever. And one way I encourage this type of adventure when I DM is reward exp., I award them for good roleplaying and for situations they find a way to handle without killing things. But sometimes you just have to fight.
Brastan 05-09-04, 03:58 PM	If you want to avoid heavy bloodshed then its important to remember the other options for giving out Exp. One is the ad-hock DM award for good RPing. This is usually is iffy and can be affected by DM favoritism(in my experience). The second method and the one I like is the story award (see DMG 3 or 3.5 some where in it). This is usually some fraction of the Parties level which grows as they grow. Common first level story ward is 200 Exp per adventurer. Third, remember that Exp given for encounters is for challenges overcome not monsters kill like in previous editions. Those bandits don't necessarily have to be killed to gain Exp. They could be incapacitated, negotiated with, or helped (What am I thinking, evil campaign get out of my head). Here's another Idea. Tie larger wards of Exp to the use of Action points on standard skill checks. For example instead of rolling under the bandits legs spend an action point to do a jumping sliding instead and gain Exp = 10/every 5 points by which the check succeeds. You'll have adventures doing crazy things not involving killing right and left.
protonik 05-10-04, 12:17 AM	The Dragonlance book presents a system of Role playing awards based on noncombat awards, personal goals achieved and mission goals that looks quite nice... Jason
Plane Sailing 05-10-04, 04:23 AM	Call of Cthulhu d20 has an excellent system for assigning story awards. In a nutshell: Choose 4-8 story goals for an adventure. Each story goal ought to have a verb like discover, survive, find, bypass or whatever... the best idea is to pick things that don't railroad one particular means of resoluton (e.g. "obtain the silver chalice from the dragon" could be done by killing the dragon, by stealing it from him or by negotiating with him) Successful completion of each story goal is worth 300xparty level xps, divided by the number of participants (can't remember if that is exactly right) - basically to ensure that a party will gain a level for every 13.3 story goals achieved.
About Yea High 05-10-04, 06:46 PM	This is actually one of the reasons why I believe Eberron will be attractive to a plethora of folk. Want traditional hack-n-slap? The DM can run you to Xen'drik, a virtual continent of buried civilizations, tombs, and classic adventures. Want a dark noir mystery? The city of Sharn with its multiple levels and towers, dark alleys, and soaring skyways. The murder may take place in the bowels of the city - but the scumbag that hired the killer may live in posh comfort. Heck, there are all sorts of different adventure angles as I see it. What if your knight of Thrane falls for an Aundair noblewoman? What if she won't convert to the Silver Flame? What if you crossed swords with her brother during the Last War? (Worse, what if you didn't recognize him until he wore his ceremonial armor at the wedding?) A million possibilities. Eberron is "our" D&D because it's everyone's D&D. Plain and simple - it's D&D. Yea
WilliamPall 05-11-04, 01:19 AM	Originally posted by About Yea High What if your knight of Thrane falls for an Aundair noblewoman? What if she won't convert to the Silver Flame? What if you crossed swords with her brother during the Last War? (Worse, what if you didn't recognize him until he wore his ceremonial armor at the wedding?) [devilish grin]Oh, I'll have to use that. [/devilish grin]
The White Sorcerer 05-11-04, 02:11 AM	Originally posted by About Yea High Want traditional hack-n-slap? The DM can run you to Xen'drik, a virtual continent of buried civilizations, tombs, and classic adventures. Want a dark noir mystery? The city of Sharn with its multiple levels and towers, dark alleys, and soaring skyways. The murder may take place in the bowels of the city - but the scumbag that hired the killer may live in posh comfort. Actually, I figure you could just stay in Sharn for both types of adventure. Remember the two cities Sharn was built on? Not places I'd hang out in without proper dungeoneering gear.
Andre La Roche 05-11-04, 02:25 AM	Originally posted by WilliamPall [devilish grin]Oh, I'll have to use that. [/devilish grin] You're not the only one who will!
Joseph Amarillo 05-11-04, 02:26 AM	Take note that I'm not trying to encourage noncombat campaigns here... After all, D&D is NOT a soap opera... Maybe we should organize a "Fewer but more Cinematic Combat Encounters Foundation"? This would allow DMs like me to get together to share ideas on how to handle the "Fewer but more cinematic combat encounters" approach. Currently, I'm not sure how to handle this approach with the standard D&D party of adventurers. In the campaign I'm planning to run, the characters will be members of a law-enforcement organization (similar to the FBI/CIA). Because they're part of the law enforcement, this should keep them from lobbing indiscriminate fireballs...
Brastan 05-11-04, 05:00 AM	I'm not sure how to handle this approach with the standard D&D party of adventurers. It's relatively easy actually. Provide only big opponents near the end of the adventure. This works well if the Players except this style of play, which is the important point. If both DM and Players are okay with this and understand what's happening it should be fun. Instead of providing several small encounters lump it all together for a big one. Most encounters are equal to the party level giving you 4 or so encounters before the PCs should be out of steam. Proved an encounter that is equal to or slightly less then 4*the parties average level. This will push Players and there characters to their limits and provide epic stories for nights to come. (trust me on this one, I had a DM who did this, but he would string 2 or 3 of them together. My fellow adventures were very battered by the end of the day. Only we go up the next day and did it again. We ran away a lot, then came back and burned everything to the ground.) Just use one of these encounters and it should work out fine.
fearsome_fey 05-11-04, 04:50 PM	Originally posted by Joseph Amarillo Maybe we should organize a "Fewer but more Cinematic Combat Encounters Foundation"? This would allow DMs like me to get together to share ideas on how to handle the "Fewer but more cinematic combat encounters" approach. check out the addition to my signature. i will also be starting a thread in a non-eberron specific board for suggestions along these lines
Joseph Amarillo 05-12-04, 08:14 AM	Nice! Check out my signature, too! :) What I want to know is whether the book itself will encourage this type of campaign. Hellcow, where art thou? HEY... That rhymes! :D
Moonlion 05-12-04, 08:17 PM	The problem with encouraging that type of play is that it can be seen as discouraging other styles of play. To have the most appeal, the thing to do is to give all players and DMs the tools they need to play the type of game they individually want to play, regardless of style.
fearsome_fey 05-13-04, 12:20 PM	Originally posted by Moonlion The problem with encouraging that type of play is that it can be seen as discouraging other styles of play. of course, but that is always the problem when anyone is too adamant for any particular cause, example: there is a billboard in columbus ohio(where i live) that says, and i quote, "feeding kids meat is child abuse" now, this billboard offends me, just like a DM that loves pulp/noir would be offended if his player's characters started to randomly kill people and ran into every hole in the ground they could find, looking for a dungeon. Originally posted by Moonlion [B]To have the most appeal, the thing to do is to give all players and DMs the tools they need to play the type of game they individually want to play, regardless of style. now then. hopefully keith was smart enough to put a chapter[or sub-chapter] into the CSB, future articlles in Dragon mag., or perhaps some supplimentary stuff that had suggestions to DMs on what to do if they wanted a particular type of play. [e.g. if you want style X, then stick your characters in area Y, and they might{with DM license of course} run into situations A, B, and C]
Penemue 05-14-04, 03:21 AM	just like a DM that loves pulp/noir would be offended if his player's characters started to randomly kill people and ran into every hole in the ground they could find, looking for a dungeon. The Children... Won't somebody Please think of the Children! All I could think of after reading the subject of this Post were thousands of Kobold children who grew up to kobold adults with a fire in their little dark hearts burning for the hapless PC's that killed their Daddy. Or Ogre... Orc... Minotaur... Illithid... you get the point. Somewhere out there... In somebody's campaign world is a Concerned Committee of Denizens of the Underdark (or C.C.D.U as their cards and placards read.) that are plotting some groups undoing.
Azual 05-15-04, 06:57 PM	i have to say the way i give non-killing exprewards is i have something akin to the morrowind guild system. I have a quest giver in a centralized location and basically, i send them out on a series of quests. after every quest i give them an exp reward just for doing the quest, even if it was "go find this book" after about three quests, they get a promotion and more exp. bottom line, you have minimal encounters but you are learning the urban style of play and are getting just as much exp as hack-and-slash group.
Harmony's Sorrow 05-15-04, 07:07 PM	Hmm... thinking pulp/noir again... a lot of intrigue, subterfuge, and espionage adventures seem like they'll be the heart of Eberron campaigning... that in mind, MASS MURDERERS MY HAIRY ASS!!! Get real... would the clever spy rather leave a guard unconscious and concealed, and if he gets caught the dude may want to hit him a few times... or kill these guards and go through who knows how much worse? And with all the political nation vs nation in Eberron, killing a sentry to gain access to confidential spell research or something for your king, country etc... that's not evil or mass murdering! That's patriotism. And so, since you started this thread... you scare me if that's the frame of reference your game uses.
Joseph Amarillo 05-17-04, 08:36 AM	To Harmony's Sorrow: :D Well... Killing a lone sentry to gain access to vital information is not as bad as killing an entire community of orcs/ogres/giants/whatever and looting their homes for gold... Actually, I wanted to remove the stereotype of D&D being a game where you have to kill lots of monsters just to level up. There are actually players who think that you have to kill monsters to gain XP (players of computer RPGs are often guilty of this... I was guilty of this, too...). The bad thing is that the core 3.5 rules still seem to encourage the killing of monsters in order to gain XP. Just look at the DMG and the MM! Notice the amount of attention given to combat related stuff (encounter levels, challenge ratings, monster tactics, etc.)?