Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Edymnion 08-26-05, 11:46 PM	Many people seem to have a hard time understanding how these guys work, or in running them without being too obvious about it, so I thought I'd try and lend a hand. The Quori are immortal, but fear that they will be destroyed with the turning of the age. They believe (like the kalashtar) that the turning of the age will be preceded by great changes. So, they work very subtly, in the background, trying to grind all change and advancement to a hault. They succeeded in Reidera, where things basically do not change at all. Its the same day after day, and the people are mentally subjugated to the point they are happy that way. And they are trying to do the same thing to Khovaire. However, because they fear drastic change, they will never do anything so outlandish as a full scale invasion, as that might be the very act that triggers their own destruction. Instead, they sit in the background, patient enough to have plans that span decades, centuries, even millenia. And they do it all from the background, never letting any of the people of Khovaire know that they even exist, much less that they are responcible for anything. The best way to use the Quori as a DM, IMO, is not to use them. Well, let me qualify that, you should include them, but they should never be an active part of a campaign. They are the masterminds, the string pullers, not a group that actually does things themselves. Figure out what you want them to accomplish, it should be something very far reaching and dastardly, and then break up how they would have to go about accomplishing that. Then, have other groups each work on small parts of it, independantly, without knowing that they're helping each other. For example, if the Quori wanted a stronger presence in a country, they may have someone nudge that country's leaders into easing tarrifs. At the same time, they would influence another group to want to produce more dreamlily. A third group that gets nudged to go into an illicit transport business. And another to step up the black market. And all of these people would think it was their own idea. However, the easing tarrifs encourages a boom in trade, which makes it easier for the black market to set up as well, while the newly expanded smugglers make it easier for the greater quanities of dreamlily to get into the city. Since there's so much, its cheaper, and more people buy it. And that makes the Dreaming Dark more powerful in that area. No single part of their plan reveals what they're up to. Several parts of it even could fail to give the clue. Its only when you see the whole that you realize whats going on. Thats how I would suggest using the Quori. Have entire arcs of the campaign look like they're dealing with specific groups with thier own goals, which seem to have nothing to do with each other. But, you have connections tying them to together (and don't be direct, maybe those smugglers aren't the main thing in the plot, but one of them getting rich off of the trade does something else, which is the tie the Quori want to use). Then, at the end, you can spell things out to the players and watch as the puzzle pieces fall into place. Its like a detective story, the pieces by themselves are meaningless, and you can't figure out who done it until you have gathered them all together and you know how to arrange them into something meaningful. You can even introduce the Quori as "the real badguys" for a campaign underway. Look at all that you've done, and see if there is anything in common with them, and then just say the quori are behind it. You don't even have to change anything, just the knowledge that there is a mastermind in place will help you guide things along. If the players never find out, thats fine! In fact, they probably WON'T figure it out unless you are blunt about it. The longer they go thinking its all unconnected, the more shocked they'll be when you pick things out here and there that they thought weren't important (and heck, they probably WEREN'T important when you said them, you're just going back and picking them up again and putting them to a new use), and it makes you look like a clever mastermind yourself, when really you're just doing some quick backhole filling.
Charles Phipps 08-26-05, 11:55 PM	Here's where I have to disagree with you Edmynion. While I personally admit that my canon Quori aren't the kind of which that are going to show up in any Eberron book, I think I have something of a knowledge about the Quori. The Quori you describe will never be found out by the PCs, they're a bunch of godmodders who basically will have everything go to plan and the PCs will never find out that it's all working to their advantage. In other words, they're irrelavant to the campaign and only devalue the PC's heroism. Instead, I think the Quori should be more like S.P.E.C.T.E.R. The Dreaming Dark are an organization that is lead by immortal beings, that due to their ability to read dreams, are largely omniscient in many respects. They also have more time and intelligence than any human to deal with their problems. They are cunning, brilliant, and utterly ruthless masterminds who play the various factions of their enemies against one another and firmly believe they will eventually have global supremacy. More than the Lords of Dust and any other faction, they're well on their way. Except, the Dreaming Dark isn't perfect. PCs, more than any other group, have the potential to stumble onto their plans and thwart them because the PCs by their very nature are able to percieve bigger pictures than any other group and the outlandish for the possible. The Quori's plans, in order to be effective, depend on human beings acting like normal people. The Pcs are far from normal. To use the Death Star Example, the Death Star is invulnerable to standard military assault but it's vulnerable to a small one man fighter. The point is that it's impossible that a single man could get past all those turbolasers, guards, and NORMAL problem solvers....the PCs can do that. As KotoR2 said "What, you think NORMAL people get ungawdly power from killing people?" James Bond can stop the people and the PCs are James Bond. For example, the Dreaming Dark will normally start up like a meeting of the Illuminati. They'll gather together in Dal Quora and discuss how they've made a fortune in drug peddling, how they've successfully set up a bunch of marriages that will result in Inspired being born in the noble families in 12 generations, and they'll talk about how they've made an entire town 10 generations ago that will serve as a gigantic "summoning gate" that will bring thousands of Dream creatures to Eberron to menace the populous and be blamed on the Dragon Below. There's no concievable way anyone whose a "known quality" like the King's Citadel, the Twelve, or Knights will be in the area...yet the plot is foiled by the PCs and they likely will stumble on some Sarlonan men who commit suicide to stop themselves from being captured. Fine, the Quori write it off due to bad luck...six months later, the SAME group somehow blows up their volcano lair that they were preparing to launch some attacks on Valenar from to restart the Great War and they find MORE Sarlonan men there. It's a statistical impossibility...that's why the PCs have the edge though.
Streamweaver 08-27-05, 10:05 AM	The Quori you describe will never be found out by the PCs, they're a bunch of godmodders who basically will have everything go to plan and the PCs will never find out that it's all working to their advantage. In other words, they're irrelevant to the campaign and only devalue the PC's heroism. You're hitting on something that many people also feel about the Quori as a whole, while they make great material to talk about on forums people often find them sterile when it comes to table play. The issue isn't automatically that the Quori are hard to understand and people need the clerics of the church of Eberron to sweep in and enlighten the ignorant masses; many people simply find them boring as a villain. The whole "greatest villains the PCs will never encounter" approach just doesn't do much for many GMs. This isn't a crime; people don't necessarily need to be educated to think one specific way about the group. Unfortunately that's the trend sometimes on these boards, an insistence on canonical homogenization.
MysticTheurge 08-27-05, 11:08 AM	I think there's a "belief" factor involved in the whole Turning of the Age concept as well. Kalashtar follow the path of light because they think by following it they'll bring about a new Age, they teach it because the more people who follow it the more they'll influence the Age. My Dreaming Dark works towards a similar goal, only from the other side. The more people who live in fear and darkness the less likely the Heart of the Dark will become something else. The more dreamers who have nightmares instead of pleasant dreams the more ensconced the Quori become in their position of power. My Dal Quor is a reflection of Eberron and my Quori know that not just any change can bring about the Turning of the Age, and so they work towards their goals of spreading fear and darkness throughout Eberron.
Kid SixXx 08-27-05, 01:08 PM	The whole "greatest villains the PCs will never encounter" approach just doesn't do much for many GMs.. On the contrary. The PC's will encounter the Dreaming Dark everynight, unless they don't sleep or don't dream. ;) The evidence of the Dreaming Dark is everywhere, whether it be the trade delegation of Inspired fresh from Reidra to discuss imports with the Brelish crown, or whether it be the odd murder in the cogs where the victim happens to be a MU resident and a pioneer in the field of dragonshard resonance. The sticky point for GM's, IMO, is that there is no real practical endgame where the Quori are concerned. The Dreaming Dark practically run a nation and can leap from host to host as they see fit. If their schemes are discovered, there are a number of scapegoats who can readily be blamed for the evils of the Dreming Dark. In order to completely put an end to the machinations of the Dreaming Dark, the PC's will have to topple a nation and invade an alternate plane of existance, and that is a pretty tall order. I don't tend to use the Dreaming Dark as villains because you can literally spend an entire campaign just on chasing shadows and developing conspiracy theories. The Dreaming Dark is the kind of organization where you accidentally stumble on their schemes, foil the bad guy, save the day, and yet at the end of the encounter you wonder if you really made a difference. Only time will tell.
Rechan 08-27-05, 01:30 PM	I don't tend to use the Dreaming Dark as villains because you can literally spend an entire campaign just on chasing shadows and developing conspiracy theories. The Dreaming Dark is the kind of organization where you accidentally stumble on their schemes, foil the bad guy, save the day, and yet at the end of the encounter you wonder if you really made a difference. Only time will tell. X-Files flashback. :drool: I could so play Mulder in Eberron. :D
Kid SixXx 08-27-05, 01:43 PM	X-Files flashback. :drool: Precisely, and here comes the proverbial kick in the pants. The Inspired are merely vessels for the Quori. When an Inspired is killed, the Quori spirit returns to Dal Quor until it can find a suitable host. Over the course of foiling several plots and building up a significant body count of Inspired villains, it is quite possible that the PC's are actually facing the same Quori spirit every time. Talk about a situation that could get really personal really fast. To add insult to injury, after all that time an effort, ultimately you are only opposing one quori spirit: one member of the Dreaming Dark. Personally, I love the concept of the Dreaming Dark. My problem is that I am an immediate gratification kinda DM, and I like seeing my players bask in the endgame when they've survived all I can throw at them. Like Charlie said, there are points in the campaign where the PC's deserve to feel some sort of closure and triumph at the conclusion of a job well done. Any campaign where the DD is the primary opposition will be a war without end.
Rechan 08-27-05, 01:53 PM	Personally, I love the concept of the Dreaming Dark. My problem is that I am an immediate gratification kinda DM, and I like seeing my players bask in the endgame when they've survived all I can throw at them. Like Charlie said, there are points in the campaign where the PC's deserve to feel some sort of closure and triumph at the conclusion of a job well done. Any campaign where the DD is the primary opposition will be a war without end. I don't know. If they foil a plot that's significant enough, I think there should be some satisfaction that they stopped something from happening. Something big. They saved (insert). And that can be the end of the adventure right there. But if they want more, yes, it seems like an undaunting task to bring down the Quori. But the same could be said for the Daelkyr, or the Lords of Dust. While with teh Blood of Vol, if you take down Vol, it all comes down. But the Lords of Dust can't all be exterminated unless you are high enough level, and still the rajahs are waiting. The same with the Daelkyr. Sure, you can slay their minions but they are the dark forces, and can get new ones, and could be released eventually. The villains are never going to stop. So you have to take victories where you can. Otherwise you just take a war to Riedra and handle this.
Kid SixXx 08-27-05, 02:15 PM	But the same could be said for the Daelkyr, or the Lords of Dust. While with teh Blood of Vol, if you take down Vol, it all comes down. But the Lords of Dust can't all be exterminated unless you are high enough level, and still the rajahs are waiting. The same with the Daelkyr. Sure, you can slay their minions but they are the dark forces, and can get new ones, and could be released eventually. I agree, but at least with the Lords of Dust & the Daelkyr, you know who your enemies are and you know that they hate you. There is some modicum of expectancy involved, as well as the comfort that you'll probably be heralded as a hero when the work is done. It always seems that the DD is at least five steps ahead of the PC's as per the very nature of the foe you're fighting: Psionic vessels aided by otherworldly creatures who can invade your dreams... Yeesh.. You could foil a Dreaming Dark plot in Sharn, only to find yourself arrested by Brelish officials because you've violated some law concerning the diplomatic immunity of the Riedran official you had to kill. Or worse, you could have been manipulated to deliver a serious blow to the leadership of Daask, only to find out later on that you paved the way for new leadership in Daask that is "more receptive" to questionable goods coming in from Sarlona. Opposing groups like the Emerald Claw or the Cult of the Dragon Below usually ends up being a good thing. With the Dreaming Dark, it's never that certain.
Rechan 08-27-05, 02:24 PM	Part of the way I see the DD are smug. To them, they have all ready won, and thus they are simply following up on their plans. This sort of casual laziness amid their vast intelligence is their folly - they can plan but they leave oversighted holes. Holes players can exploit. For instance, a plot that they have no contingency for because it's simply too complex to be foiled - except by the x factor, the PCs. The DD never expected for something chaotic, unpredictable, or something brunt and blatant to stumble into their plans. Let the quori have egg on their face for once, after a few adventures that seem like nothing was gained. But remember something: the DD have to remain hidden. IF the population knows of them, it ruins them. So they work very hard to try and avoid being exposed - but the PCs might "win" by gaining Kalasthar allies, by exposing the DD to influential people, by gaining friends and unveiling the threat to others. Opposing groups like the Emerald Claw or the Cult of the Dragon Below usually ends up being a good thing. With the Dreaming Dark, it's never that certain. I point out that unhappy endings happen in Eberron. Not every adventure should end with rainbows and kittens. Some should be questionable, bitter sweet, or downright unfair. Just make the PCs aware of this before you start playing.
MysticTheurge 08-27-05, 02:24 PM	Any campaign where the DD is the primary opposition will be a war without end. This assumes that the Age will never change. A DD campaign could certainly cap off with the Kalashtar "winning."
Kid SixXx 08-27-05, 02:48 PM	I point out that unhappy endings happen in Eberron. Not every adventure should end with rainbows and kittens. Some should be questionable, bitter sweet, or downright unfair. Just make the PCs aware of this before you start playing. I totally agree. That is the peril of being a hero. This assumes that the Age will never change. A DD campaign could certainly cap off with the Kalashtar "winning." I suppose, but isn't that by design? The DD will probably win despite the best efforts of the Kalashtar, and the scenario seems to be built with the defeat of the Kalashtar in mind. Otherwise you wouldn't need the PC's to aid the Kalashtar in topping DD plots. Why would you need PC involvement with DD plots if the Kalashtar had a good chance of winning. The situation is supposed to be bleak for the Kalashtar; if it didn't there would be no need for "foreign meddlers" to save the day.
MysticTheurge 08-27-05, 02:52 PM	I suppose, but isn't that by design? The DD will probably win despite the best efforts of the Kalashtar, and the scenario seems to be built with the defeat of the Kalashtar in mind. Otherwise you wouldn't need the PC's to aid the Kalashtar in topping DD plots. Why would you need PC involvement with DD plots if the Kalashtar had a good chance of winning. The situation is supposed to be bleak for the Kalashtar; if it didn't there would be no need for "foreign meddlers" to save the day. Sorry I should've been more specific. "A DD campaign could certainly cap off with the kalashtar 'winning' thanks to the PCs efforts."
Kid SixXx 08-27-05, 03:02 PM	Sorry I should've been more specific. "A DD campaign could certainly cap off with the kalashtar 'winning' thanks to the PCs efforts." Aha, then I agree and that's the way the scenario should go unless you're a killer DM. Naturally, a proper DM should occasionally introduce elements in campaign to alert the PC's that something not quite right is going on, and also inject scenarios to give PC's a snapshot of what might happen if they chose to be inactive in matters concerning the DD.
Edymnion 08-27-05, 04:29 PM	When I think of the Dreaming Dark, the first quote that comes to mind is Cleveland from Family Guy, referancing the civil rights board game on game night: Peter: Go to jail for whistling at a white woman, dammit! How do you win at this game? Cleveland: You don't really win, you just do a little better each time. I like the idea that the DD CAN'T be beaten by the PCs. The most they can do is slow them down. Reminds me of another quote (which has stuck with me) from C.S.S. Friedmann's Coldfire Trilogy. The scene is set at someone having a vision of the bright shining knights and holy men preparing to set out to assault the heart of evil itself (more or less). She's basically floating in spirit form over the field, able to see and hear everything going on, but nobody there can see her. She's screaming at them not to go, that they can't win, that the forest will destroy them all. Why do you have to go in there, you'll die! To which one of the paladins turns and looks right at her and says "Because some things are worth dying for." as he turns and heels his mount into the jaws of death. You don't fight the Dreaming Dark because you expect to win. You fight because its the right thing to do. There is nothing more noble than riding into the fight that you know you can't win.
Kid SixXx 08-27-05, 04:54 PM	You don't fight the Dreaming Dark because you expect to win. You fight because its the right thing to do. There is nothing more noble than riding into the fight that you know you can't win. I have to disagree slightly with that interpretation. In LOTR: RotK, Aragorn charged first and solo towards the armies of Sauron with the distinct notion that his side might be victorious. I don't think anyone rides into a fight that he knows he can't win. He rides into the fight with the hope that his sacrifice will lead to a future victory. The same with the Civil Rights analogy. You fight for the cause because you want your decendants to enjoy those rights, not because you expect to enjoy them yourself. That being said, there is an avenue which leads to the ultimate defeat of the Dreaming Dark: it just happens to involve the overthrow of arguably the most powerful nation on Eberron, and then invading an alternate plane of reality to seal the deal.. A most epic undertaking, but who better to emerge victorious than the PC's?
Edymnion 08-27-05, 05:01 PM	I have to disagree slightly with that interpretation. I don't think anyone rides into a fight that he knows he can't win. He rides into the fight with the hope that his sacrifice will lead to a future victory. The same with the Civil Rights analogy. You fight for the cause because you want your decendants to enjoy those rights, not because you expect to enjoy them yourself.Yes, but *YOU* have no hopes of winning. You fight because you know that if you don't, there is no hope. But if you do, hope lives on. You may not make it, but maybe, just maybe, you'll be the roadbump that slows them down just enough for the next guy to stop them. Or the guy after that, or the guy after that. Its just not in the human nature to lay down and die though. As a race, we will fight until the bitter end, always hoping that, just maybe, things will come out all right in the end. And even if they don't, at least you tried. You did your part.
Kid SixXx 08-27-05, 05:03 PM	Yes, but *YOU* have no hopes of winning. You fight because you know that if you don't, there is no hope. But if you do, hope lives on. You may not make it, but maybe, just maybe, you'll be the roadbump that slows them down just enough for the next guy to stop them. Or the guy after that, or the guy after that. I have to differ again, but ever so slightly as to split hairs a bit. You do have hope of winning. The only difference is that you've made peace with the fact that you won't be alive to see the victory. Its just not in the human nature to lay down and die though. As a race, we will fight until the bitter end, always hoping that, just maybe, things will come out all right in the end. And even if they don't, at least you tried. Precisely. Gimli: Certainty of death. Small chance of success. What are we waiting for?
Gurv 08-27-05, 05:25 PM	Is there a special weapon enhancement that allows one to split hairs so finely; and if so: does it stack with vorpal? Obviously, victory is defined differently by different people in different situations. I think that what Edymnion is trying to say is that you don't defeat the Dreaming Dark by destroying them outright, or even by thwarting them entirely. You defeat them in small ways, stalling their progress, or stopping them from accomplishing some goal which is immediately detrimental to you.
Kid SixXx 08-27-05, 05:31 PM	Obviously, victory is defined differently by different people in different situations. Moral victories are written secret code. When deciphered they say, "Nice try, but you still lost." Victory is victory. What good is thwarting small plots if the DD wind up taking over Khorvaire anyway? I think that what Edymnion is trying to say is that you don't defeat the Dreaming Dark by destroying them outright, or even by thwarting them entirely. You defeat them in small ways, stalling their progress, or stopping them from accomplishing some goal which is immediately detrimental to you. No, what Edymnion said is what he said. He stated that one goes into battle against the DD with no hope of winning. Edy clearly stated that not only does he consider the DD to be undefeatable, he enjoys the fact that they seem to be undefeatable. I say that you do confront the DD and firmly expect to defeat them totally at some point. The difference is that you don't necessarily expect to be around when final victory is achieved. Sure, a hero will confront the DD in the immediacy knowing that one thwarted plan will not ultimately stop the DD, but he does continue with the hope that if he thwarts enough schemes, he will stop the DD cold in their tracks or possibly beat them utterly someday. Whether or not the hero lives to see total victory against the Quori is another matter, but certainly the hero hopes that his string of victories will eventually lead to the permanent collapse of the Dreaming Dark. Where Edy & I see eye to eye is that eventually, we know that we will see a thread entitled "We Whooped the Dreaming Dark," & it will concern the story of epic-level armed munchkins with Daelkyr servants and +12 Swords of Uber Doom, as well a DM that hands the entire plane of Dal Quor over to the PC's without incident. That will anger both of us. We're basically debating semantics. Neither one of us really believes that the Dreaming Dark is capable of being defeated from a practical standpoint. What we disagree on is the motivation drives the PC's to fight the DD knowing that their victories might not have an immediate effect on the status quo. Edy doesn't think the DD should be defeatable at all. I think the DD should be defeatable, but with the knowledge that the defeat of the DD will be the most challenging undertaking that the PC's (that anyone for that matter) can ever hope to accomplish. All that... and the Emerald Claw, the Aurum, the Cult of the Dragon Below, and the combined gangs that make up Sharn's criminal underworld wait in the wings. Definitely an interesting and hazardous time to be a hero.
MysticTheurge 08-27-05, 07:11 PM	That being said, there is an avenue which leads to the ultimate defeat of the Dreaming Dark: it just happens to involve the overthrow of arguably the most powerful nation on Eberron, and then invading an alternate plane of reality to seal the deal.. A most epic undertaking, but who better to emerge victorious than the PC's? If that's what the DM wants it to be. It could also involve creating enough followers of the Path of Light in order to Turn the Age. That pretty much wipes out the Dreaming Dark (literally) too. Or for that matter, it could be whatever the DM wants that causes the Turning of the Age.
Charles Phipps 08-27-05, 07:16 PM	I would argue the point that Star Wars is effective because it's essentially the first blow that the Rebellion has struck for the defeat of the Empire. It's not a victory that will crumble the Empire with one blow but it's like the death of Highlord Verminaard in Dragonlance. Highlord Verminaard is the first fall of what will be a Domino stack of victories to their bitter end. The Dreaming Dark are Immortal but like Specter, they're a group that thrives on secrecy honestly. Part of my problem is that people think the Dreaming Dark is all that and a bag of chips while the Lords of Dust are given the shaft in terms of their all powerful evilness. The Dreaming Dark have some gains, they conquered a nation. Whoodey frickin doo. They may be immortal but so are the Rajahs and all outsiders, that doesn't mean that the fight against them is lost. No, it won't be easy to reveal the Dreaming Dark to the world but if the PC's did there's nothing to really stop the nations of Khovaire from banding together to find a way to bind the Quori like the Gatekeepers bound the Daelkyr. Is it possible to destroy the quori? No, but it's entirely possible to seal the quori away for all time just like the Rajahs have been. Will it be easy? Hell no! It's like defeating Sauron, it's a titanic victory only won by the most incredible heroism, suffering, and sadness. Call of Cthulhu is a moral victory game. It's the game where humanity will eventually be snuffed but you fight for another day til that tomorrow. Eberron can be like that but I sincerely doubt that it was meant to be played like that or otherwise. The 'point' of the PCs versus the Dreaming Dark is that instead of making their last heroic charge into the darkness like the Light Brigade they will either A-] Reveal the Quori for the scum they are and thus secure a more even footing for the world. B-] Somehow crush the Quori's ambitions in some way themselves. Maybe the Quori's frequent defeats at the PCs' hands may lead future Quori to become more like Kalashatyr
Kid SixXx 08-27-05, 07:37 PM	I would argue the point that Star Wars is effective because it's essentially the first blow that the Rebellion has struck for the defeat of the Empire. It's not a victory that will crumble the Empire with one blow but it's like the death of Highlord Verminaard in Dragonlance. Highlord Verminaard is the first fall of what will be a Domino stack of victories to their bitter end. The Dreaming Dark are Immortal but like Specter, they're a group that thrives on secrecy honestly. Part of my problem is that people think the Dreaming Dark is all that and a bag of chips while the Lords of Dust are given the shaft in terms of their all powerful evilness. The Dreaming Dark have some gains, they conquered a nation. Whoodey frickin doo. They may be immortal but so are the Rajahs and all outsiders, that doesn't mean that the fight against them is lost. No, it won't be easy to reveal the Dreaming Dark to the world but if the PC's did there's nothing to really stop the nations of Khovaire from banding together to find a way to bind the Quori like the Gatekeepers bound the Daelkyr. Is it possible to destroy the quori? No, but it's entirely possible to seal the quori away for all time just like the Rajahs have been. Will it be easy? Hell no! It's like defeating Sauron, it's a titanic victory only won by the most incredible heroism, suffering, and sadness. Call of Cthulhu is a moral victory game. It's the game where humanity will eventually be snuffed but you fight for another day til that tomorrow. Eberron can be like that but I sincerely doubt that it was meant to be played like that or otherwise. The 'point' of the PCs versus the Dreaming Dark is that instead of making their last heroic charge into the darkness like the Light Brigade they will either A-] Reveal the Quori for the scum they are and thus secure a more even footing for the world. B-] Somehow crush the Quori's ambitions in some way themselves. Maybe the Quori's frequent defeats at the PCs' hands may lead future Quori to become more like Kalashatyr Can't get any plainer than this. Mr. Phipps & I see eye to eye on this.
Edymnion 08-27-05, 11:35 PM	Well, the Quori *are* unbeatable. You can't kill them, the most you could do is try to lock them away, which when the group you're binding is immortal, it is only a matter of time before they get free again. You kill one, a new one just takes it's place. The most you can do is try to get that one more day. But every day you earn, is another day that the changing of the Age has to roll around. You cannot defeat the Dreaming Dark, neither through subterfuge nor force of arms, at any level. Even if you beat down Reidera, even if you go into Dal Quor itself and beat the Quori down on their own home turf, they will still come back. The idea isn't to win, not for the PCs. The idea is that there is a time limit on how long the DD can survive before the turning of the age. When that happens, then there will be true victory. Its up to the PCs to just stall the DD to buy as much time as they can towards that unknown limit. Ah, here's a good illustration of how I see it. You are on a boat. The boat springs a leak. There is nothing on the boat that would allow you to repair the hole, and you are taking on water fast. Your only hope is to make it to shore before you sink and drown. You can't fight the ocean pouring into your boat, its going to do that no matter what you do. But, you can bail for your ever loving lives while the captain tries to make full speed towards land. You are never going to be able to bail the entire ocean, and every bucket you do bail just goes back into the ocean to come back in again. But, if you can bail fast enough to keep afloat until you get to the island, then the ocean loses it's threat, death has no teeth. You have defeated the ocean, not by beating it, but by outlasting it.
Charles Phipps 08-27-05, 11:56 PM	Well, the Quori *are* unbeatable. You can't kill them, the most you could do is try to lock them away, which when the group you're binding is immortal, it is only a matter of time before they get free again. You kill one, a new one just takes it's place. And by then, they could learn their lesson. Also, there's no reason that they can't stay bound forever. Seriously, the Quori might get free and by then humans are all 10,000th level and have settled Dal Quora...or all life in the universe is gone. The most you can do is try to get that one more day. Or 10,000,000 years. The Quori are a bloated sack of immortal dreamstuff that largely is trying to do what the Lords of Dust and any Lich could do honestly. They're successful but they're not really all that powerful or smart. What happens when they're found out Edymnion. Once the spells are made that can watch over the leadership of nations and determine their possession, they lose all power. But every day you earn, is another day that the changing of the Age has to roll around. You cannot defeat the Dreaming Dark, neither through subterfuge nor force of arms, at any level. Even if you beat down Reidera, even if you go into Dal Quor itself and beat the Quori down on their own home turf, they will still come back. Maybe as Kalashatyr. Maybe the PCs will become immortal and stand guard forever against them. Remember Darth Sion from Knights of the Old Republic too? Here's what my PC would say to the Dreaming Dark. "Come back, by all means. I will kill you. Come back. I will kill you. If necessary, I will set up guards on this place and we will watch Dal Quora forever and kill you over and over again ETERNALLY if that's what it takes. You are immortal but that's brought you only a never ending living hell. You cannot stop us, you cannot beat us....learn from that." The idea isn't to win, not for the PCs. The idea is that there is a time limit on how long the DD can survive before the turning of the age. When that happens, then there will be true victory. Its up to the PCs to just stall the DD to buy as much time as they can towards that unknown limit. My PCs must be more ambitious than yours. Ah, here's a good illustration of how I see it. You are on a boat. The boat springs a leak. There is nothing on the boat that would allow you to repair the hole, and you are taking on water fast. Your only hope is to make it to shore before you sink and drown. You can't fight the ocean pouring into your boat, its going to do that no matter what you do. But, you can bail for your ever loving lives while the captain tries to make full speed towards land. You are never going to be able to bail the entire ocean, and every bucket you do bail just goes back into the ocean to come back in again. But, if you can bail fast enough to keep afloat until you get to the island, then the ocean loses it's threat, death has no teeth. You have defeated the ocean, not by beating it, but by outlasting it. *paraphrased from Doctor Who's Parting of the Ways* Do you know what they will call the PCs in the legends of the Quori? The oncomming storm. They may have eliminated all of their emotions but in their sad little mutated bodies, there's one emotion less and that's fear. Ten million years from now, when mankind is long asleep, the Quori will still remain shivering in the depths of their dimension... Knowing if they ever set their eye towards the Prime Material plane, the nightmare known as man awaits them Is that Likely? HELL NO. Your way is perfectly legitimate. However, just as likely is the Lords of Dust taking over the world or the Rajahs eating the Quori and consigning them to Oblivion because well...the Rajahs can do that...or the Silver Flame purifying man's dreams so all the Quori become lawful good. The Quori don't have anything on the other immortal factions really.
MysticTheurge 08-28-05, 12:01 AM	Ah, here's a good illustration of how I see it. You are on a boat. The boat springs a leak. There is nothing on the boat that would allow you to repair the hole, and you are taking on water fast. Your only hope is to make it to shore before you sink and drown. You can't fight the ocean pouring into your boat, its going to do that no matter what you do. But, you can bail for your ever loving lives while the captain tries to make full speed towards land. You are never going to be able to bail the entire ocean, and every bucket you do bail just goes back into the ocean to come back in again. But, if you can bail fast enough to keep afloat until you get to the island, then the ocean loses it's threat, death has no teeth. You have defeated the ocean, not by beating it, but by outlasting it. To use your boat analogy, my PCs won't be bailing, I leave that boring task for someone else. My PCs will be the ones rowing the boat to shore.
Rechan 08-28-05, 12:15 AM	Well, the Quori *are* unbeatable. You can't kill them, the most you could do is try to lock them away, which when the group you're binding is immortal, it is only a matter of time before they get free again. You kill one, a new one just takes it's place. However, just as likely is the Lords of Dust taking over the world or the Rajahs eating the Quori and consigning them to Oblivion because well...the Rajahs can do that...or the Silver Flame purifying man's dreams so all the Quori become lawful good. The Quori don't have anything on the other immortal factions really. This is what I'd like to emphasize. Edy's argument could be made for the Daelkyr or the Lords of Dust. And the argument sort of falls short when you say "oh well, a Rajah just got out, but what's the point in putting him back in the bottle when they'll just get out again?" I gotta ask, do you believe in our judicial system? You know, someone commits a crime, we lock them up, they get out and commit a crime, we put them back in? That's the idea. Jail Breaks are the only way these guys are getting out, and PCs are the Law Enforcement. Sure, the PCs may be dead and gone before the Daelkyr get out again, but the point is they are on watch right now. Otherwise Peter Parker would just have shrugged his shoulders when Uncle Ben got toasted. As it stands, what's going on here is someone is telling new DMs "Look, this is how you play these guys". When in reality it is up to the DM in question how to handle the DD or any other group - all that can be offered here is advice. But to completely dismiss the notion that in someone else's game something is not possible, that's being heavy handed. In Charles game, the DD can be beaten if the Players make that their entire mission and the entire campaign revolves around it. In Edy's, it's more "We are the guest stars in the Kalasthar's game - we got to keep these guys from winning today so that someone can stop them tomorrow". Both platforms are acceptable, and both are acceptable in Eberron. Eberron is a place where parties don't always get closure. Where adventures don't always end happy. Sometimes they end bitter sweet, and sometimes completely unfair. And sometimes your PCs save the world because that's how the campaign is going to end. It all depends on what flavor of Eberron you're cooking with.
Edymnion 08-28-05, 12:18 AM	To use your boat analogy, my PCs won't be bailing, I leave that boring task for someone else. My PCs will be the ones rowing the boat to shore.Well, to use the analogy, anyone fighting the Dreaming Dark directly is a bailer. The ones doing the rowing would be the kalashtar with their dream meditation stuff. Thing is, the fact that the boat is sinking is a big secret, and anyone not directly involved with bailing or steering is going about their normal day to day stuff onboard ship like nothing was wrong. The galley cook is still yelling at her spitboys to rotate the meat more evenly. The deckhands are still sneaking into dark corners for a bit of "fun", business is still being done. The only way most of them will ever know that there was a problem is if the boat sinks. If they make it to land, the captain puts everybody off the boat, repairs it, and pretends like nothing happened because it would ruin his business. See, the reason I really like the Dreaming Dark is precisely because they can't be truely beaten. In a game where the players are so used to there ALWAYS being a way to win, they come to expect it. Thats not realistic. Sometimes there will always be an opponent that you just cannot defeat, no matter how hard you try. Of course, I'm also the same DM that will put a lvl 1 party in the same area (in a normal game) as an adult dragon, or have near Epic level characters run across a band of lvl 1 goblins, just to show them that the entire world does not revolve around them, and that things don't run away just because they're the wrong CR. Yeah, there's an adult dragon up in the mountains. No, you're not supposed to be able to beat it, you shouldn't even try, but its not going to go away just because its too tough for you. You have to know what your own limits are, and pick your battles. Same thing here, for me. Just because it is there does not mean you have to be capable of beating it.
Charles Phipps 08-28-05, 12:24 AM	Same thing here, for me. Just because it is there does not mean you have to be capable of beating it. They're actually really pathetic if you think about it Edymnion. They're Wolfram and Hart. They're the demons that LOWER THEMSELVES to trying to play human power politics. Again, realize, if the cat's ever out of the bag Ed...the Dreaming Dark is finished and they're just a bunch of demons. What really makes them so invincible? ALL demons are immortal. The Rajahs are godlike powerful, the Quori are a bunch of Freddy Krueger possessors. Let's say the PCs quest for a way ot make all humans immune to possession. What would happen if they succeed?
MysticTheurge 08-28-05, 11:30 AM	In Edy's, it's more "We are the guest stars in the Kalasthar's game - we got to keep these guys from winning today so that someone can stop them tomorrow". This was my point about the way you've described the dreaming dark. And in my game it isn't true. Well, to use the analogy, anyone fighting the Dreaming Dark directly is a bailer. The ones doing the rowing would be the kalashtar with their dream meditation stuff. Yes anyone attacking and trying to kill Quori is a bailer, but that doesn't mean the only way to row is to be a Kalashtar and meditate. In my game there will be things the PCs can do to bring about the Turning of the Age. And unless they take a shine to the Dreaming Dark (which I can't imagine they will), they'll do these things to help the kalashtar. Sure it may involve killing some Mind Seeded minions or some Inspired, but the real goal will be Turning the Age. See, the reason I really like the Dreaming Dark is precisely because they can't be truely beaten. In a game where the players are so used to there ALWAYS being a way to win, they come to expect it. Thats not realistic. Sometimes there will always be an opponent that you just cannot defeat, no matter how hard you try. Of course, I'm also the same DM that will put a lvl 1 party in the same area (in a normal game) as an adult dragon, or have near Epic level characters run across a band of lvl 1 goblins, just to show them that the entire world does not revolve around them, and that things don't run away just because they're the wrong CR. Yeah, there's an adult dragon up in the mountains. No, you're not supposed to be able to beat it, you shouldn't even try, but its not going to go away just because its too tough for you. You have to know what your own limits are, and pick your battles. Which is great, if that's what you're looking for as a DM, but there seem to be a lot of people who don't like the DD for that exact reason. My point is it doesn't have to be that way.
Azual 08-28-05, 11:48 AM	its the old quote in my sig one in a million chances often happen nine times out of ten. This is the stuff PC's are made of. Its so true too, PC's, like what Robert Jordan said, bend the strings of time around them, and affect the pattern that emerges. they are able to mantipulate the cloth to do things that they want. I.E. action points
DyloniusFunk 08-28-05, 01:02 PM	Here's something i just thought off that i don't think has been touched upon on any of these Inspired/DD threads that have popped up. Several time it's been mentioned that the DD desire to prevent the Turning Of The Age. The PCs therefor might try to speed that up to end the threat the Quori pose. My question is, what's to say that the next incarnation of Dol Quor isn't going to be as evil as this one. Everyone assumes the next Age will be nice and good, but is there any proof or even any reasonable speculation about that. I will say off hand that the only books i own are the ECS and Races Of Ebberon. I do not recall however there being any aprt of those books saying that if the Age changed from it's current incarnation, the next one would be off a good alignment. I don't have my books on hand, so maybe i missed something.
MysticTheurge 08-28-05, 04:41 PM	My question is, what's to say that the next incarnation of Dol Quor isn't going to be as evil as this one. Nothing really, which is why I made sure to put "winning" in quote marks whenever I talk about the Kalashtar "winning."
Radkres 08-28-05, 06:00 PM	The real sad thing about the DD in my game is if they win they lose. It is their tampering; trying for a no change world that causes Turning of the Age. The more they change sentient life on Eberron to conform to their Ideal world the more they change the dreaming world. How I see it is the more they try to stop the turning the more damage they cause to their age. The more frantic they become on stopping the Turning of the Age they unwillingly are accelerating the process.
aelryinth 08-28-05, 10:25 PM	The challenge with the Qu'ori is two fold. First is the secrecy. THe arrogance of the Kalashtar is the first hurdle. They are perfectly willing to let the DD enslave millions of humans so they can meditate on the turniing of the Age. The fallacy of this 'superior' mentality utterly escapes me. Reveal the Qu'ori for who they are, and very, very quickly, things are going to change. The whole power of the DD relies on them not being revealed to exist. What do you think will happen once people know that King Jarot had terrible nightmares about things and built up his armies, and his heirs had dreams of power and ambition and tore the nation apart...and the DD have power over dreams? And they used exactly this same tactic on Sarlona? And that the Eldritch Machines they are making are being used to draw them closer to Eberron again, to grant them more power over dreams? That people using Dreamlily can be possessed by Qu'ori? Once these secrets are out, the DD has huge, major problems. Their little tricks just won't work anymore. Second, their 'invulnerability'. hey, I'm sorry, the Qu'ori have no experience with high end magic and necromancy. Immortals can be bound, and they can conceivably be bound forever. They can be slain, and forced to reincarnate without any of their prior experiences. Their projected spirits can be stuck in Khyber shards and simply not allowed to get out. The fact that they are ALL psionic means they can be detected as such. Their ARE ways to trap possessing fiends in the current rules. Sure, they may not be in the game now...but PC's are going to go look for them, and look for them hard, or make them up if not. They may be forced to slaughter every Inspired alive to not allow the Qu'ori to enter the world freely...which few would argue with, as that is the whole purpose for which the Inspired exist. Once that fact is known... They can turn the Qu'ori's Eldritch Machines against them...use human dreams to drive them FURTHER away, incidentally warding them from the Qu'ori at the same time. Protection from Evil, a simple 1st level spell, prevents a Qu'ori from influencing your dreams. Spilling the beans is the hardest part, but it can be done at the highest and most competent levels of government...particularly if the kalashtar finally wake up and start realizing that change does not come with sameness, and start really laying things out on the table. People may not want to believe...but get an Inspired inside a Circle where it's Qu'ori can't leave, exorcise it, bind it, and then realize that every single Inspired alive potentially has one of these things inside... People will wake up quick. The Qu'ori are neither invincible nor all-knowing. They are terribly vulnerable and terribly dependent on secrecy to make their plans come to fruition. Puncture that veil and they lose a tremendous amount of power. ===Aelryinth
a_psh 08-29-05, 01:40 AM	Turn the Wheel of the Age, and the quori lose. So, yeah, all you need to do is cause a major cataclysm. I'm betting the end of the Age of Giants wasn't the only one. Perhaps it doesn't necessarily have to involve the quori or the Inspired in any way. Breaking some daelkyr seals or freeing a rajah or two might just do the job and cause Dal Quor to reset to something new. Of course, then you have to deal with whatever you just set free. And cataclysms have a nice way of wiping out entire continents worth of civilization. So, uh, try for a continent other than Khorvaire. ;) Short of that, though, I only see them being thwarted and delayed, not defeated.
MysticTheurge 08-29-05, 02:09 AM	Turn the Wheel of the Age, and the quori lose. So, yeah, all you need to do is cause a major cataclysm. The Turning of the Age won't necessarily be accompanied by a Cataclysm, at least not one on Eberron. All the previous Cataclysms involved Eberron/Some-other-plane wars. The Turning of the Age is just a change in what Dal Quor is and could be accompanied on Eberron by nothing more cataclysmic than a bunch of strange dreams.
a_psh 08-29-05, 02:22 AM	Good to know, MysticTheurge. Hmm... it seems to be pretty strongly implied that the old quori (from the Age of Giants) knew that the turning would happen and tried to stop it. Which leads to this interesting (i.e. not very well-defined in any source material I'm aware of, highly speculative, and probably a tad divisive) question... what happens to the quori and the Inspired when they sense that the Wheel of the Age is about to turn? What kind of crazy stuff do they begin doing then?
Charles Phipps 08-29-05, 02:43 AM	At last! A realistic excuse for invasion!
Thramzorean 08-29-05, 10:35 AM	I'm not so overly concerned about how to play the Quori beyond that which they are presented as, masterminds fantastic, because as stated unless you're going to overturn a slave continent and attack off plane I doubt many campaigns will ever get to the degree of doing more than foiling the odd plot to two. However I think there is a lot of potential to build on their past history. For one instance I think there should be some remnant of the giant kingdoms that is out to get the Quori big time which maybe the spread of the DD to Khovaire has stirred into action. How about a bunch of holy liberator storm giants that are now coming out of seclusion to combat their ancient foes. Or there would be several good Xenrick tie-ins in having to dig up some ancient knowledge on how to fight them from the first invasion - or do you go to Sarlona to unleash another cataclysm the secrets of which were found in Xendrick? I use the DD in my own Eberron to introduce the psionic dragons into Khorvaire also subtely interacting against the DD, the dragon's don't want the DD interferring with the dragon prophecy as it is unfolding with the dragonmarked races. Perhaps that's what they are doing regards the Turning of the Age (which is almost certainly related or foretold in the draconic prophecies though I'm not familiar with this bit of fluff :) ), now that Khorvaire is weakend by the Last War the Quori are now finally willing to risk showing their long term hand. And what do the Soveriegn Host and the Silver Flame make of the Quori? The flamer exorcists will be up in arms as soon as they realize what is going on with the DD - the DD must be tiptoeing around this minefield big time, and similarly how distant are the gods on this issue?