Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Moebius 02-04-07, 02:19 AM	at our game, today, our DM was saying how he heard the fellas at our game shop saying they don't expect the Eberron line to survive based on how well (or not well) its selling there. Thats one perspective. I'd like to hear how you all see it doing. Thank you. (btw, the game we were in today wasn't an Eberron campaign)
wolffman007 02-04-07, 02:51 AM	well i dont know, but there are currently 9 eberron gaming books out (unless im miss counting) & 3 more gaming books slated so far for this year (and we all know more can easily be added), 1 adventure slated. 14 novels currently, with another 5 coming out this year. as forgotten realms has 3 gaming books, 2 adventures & 17 novels all slated so far for 2007 im no expert, but to me that seems decent
mhacdebhandia 02-04-07, 03:16 AM	There is no gamestore owner who could possibly know anything about how well a line is selling. Hell, there are probably no distribution companies who could possibly judge the success of a line based only on their sell-through.
goblin_pride 02-04-07, 04:19 AM	at our game, today, our DM was saying how he heard the fellas at our game shop saying they don't expect the Eberron line to survive based on how well (or not well) its selling there. So? That just means the game store needs to either attract a more intelligent clientele or try to get people to crack the cover of a the ECS. Personally, I loathed the idea of playing in Eberron originally, if it weren't for a friend of mine pushing me to give it a try, I would've just walked away without even peeking between the covers.
(Psi)SeveredHead 02-04-07, 09:12 AM	Hairy Tarantula in Toronto said the exact opposite: "Everyone loves Eberron". That was shortly after Eberron came out, however. While it's not a survey, if a hundred people stated their experiences from a hundred different gaming stores, we'd have some real idea of how well Eberron is doing.
Arivia 02-04-07, 02:55 PM	Hairy Tarantula in Toronto said the exact opposite: "Everyone loves Eberron". That was shortly after Eberron came out, however. Between that place and the Silver Snail, Toronto has odd animal gaming store names sewn up *tight*. While it's not a survey, if a hundred people stated their experiences from a hundred different gaming stores, we'd have some real idea of how well Eberron is doing. Statistical bias is a lie. In other news, my local hobby store reports that my own home printed and stapled campaign setting is selling ten copies for every ECS. My campaign setting is better!
Joni-san 02-04-07, 02:56 PM	When I asked one FLGS about this they basically said "It's selling well"
Cabral 02-04-07, 04:15 PM	Let's look at Amazon since it should represent a broader spectrum of people. The 3.5 Player's Handbook has a sales rank of #3,796 in books. The Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting (3.0) has a sale rank of #6,857 in books. The Eberron Campaign Setting seems to be slouching in at #12,475 but The Player's Guide to Faerun (which updates the FRCS to 3.5) is only #22,621. And for reference, since I can't find an explanation of what sales rank means, Harry Potter hardcover books range in sales rank from #1 (Book 7 preorder) to #398 (Book 4), while the paperbacks ranged into the twenty thousands. This tells me that Forgotten Realms had strong support in 3.0, but when Eberron came in with 3.5, Elminster got his but kicked out the spotlight by the Lord of Blades. :D Go Eberron!
DragoonDarkfire 02-04-07, 05:21 PM	Well I think Eberron is doing well for the fact that unlike other settings it adds a certain... modern touch without it actually being modern. Kinda like final fantasy save that instead of it having guns and airships from technology it's all powered by magic. Airships aren't any more "technology" then a magic sword. Warforged are beings created by magic and I think that it opens up a lot of pulp action. I also like this single sentence in the ECS. "Alignment is unpredictable" you have no idea how long I wanted to try playing as an Ogre or a mindflayer that actually wanted to help people for a change but the bigotive DM's I dealt with all said "NO TEH BOOKS SAID DEY WERE EBUL AND AS SUCH DEY'RE EBULL!!!" and for ****s sake was it easy. The moment you see and Orc you don't even have to think. If it's an orc with those DM's it's evil and will try to kill you. No gray with them whatsoever. Now that Eberron came out and it said right there that alignment is only a small judge of one's character and I instantly fell in love with it just cause of that one note about the setting...
mhacdebhandia 02-04-07, 05:40 PM	Bigotive?
Ravenscroft 02-04-07, 05:45 PM	Bigotive? Based on Bigot i would suggest. Unless there are Smallative DMs somewhere. :)
Alex_ 02-04-07, 05:55 PM	Bigotive? What? It's a perfectly cromulent word.
Cabral 02-04-07, 06:15 PM	What? It's a perfectly cromulent word. Does that constitute a personal attack? It has come to be used with tongue in cheek, or with the intent to insult high talkers, English majors and otherwise insufferable people who feel the need to correct others.
Alex_ 02-04-07, 06:35 PM	No, I was just making a Simpsons reference. I wasn't aware it had become considered insulting. When did this happen?
Edymnion 02-04-07, 07:01 PM	Yeah, I look at it this way. Eberron books sell better than Faerun books. Which either means Eberron is doing exceedingly well and the naysayers have no idea of what they are talking about, or that if Eberron is selling poorly and is in danger of getting canned, then Faerun has already been confirmed dead and we should expect the official notice of it's cancelation any day now.
Moebius 02-04-07, 07:11 PM	Eberron books sell better than Faerun books.How is this determined? I'm not questioning if you're correct, I just would like to know where you go to find the data.
DwarfPcfan 02-04-07, 07:18 PM	Well I don't know about sales in a whole but where I live Eberron is widely accepted as one of the three best Campaign Settings of all time and is the current best Seller. That said Long live my favorite setings!: Long live Eberron!:D Long live Iron Kingdoms:D Long Live Ravenloft!:D Sorry about that but FR really needs something akin to Dc Comic's crisis on infinite Earths to clean it up before I even consider giving it any respect...
Cabral 02-04-07, 07:49 PM	No, I was just making a Simpsons reference. I wasn't aware it had become considered insulting. When did this happen? :P I figured my attempt to use the reference in the same manner as the orignal word (iow, tongue-in-cheek humor) would fall flat. :P That said Long live my favorite setings!: Long live Eberron!:D Long live Iron Kingdoms:D Long Live Ravenloft!:D Yay! Long live Eberron! Long live Iron Kingdoms! Wouldn't "Long live Ravenloft" require destroying Ravenloft then true ressurecting it? Okay, okay. No more attempts at humor ... for now ...
Edymnion 02-04-07, 08:09 PM	How is this determined? I'm not questioning if you're correct, I just would like to know where you go to find the data.The book ranks on Amazon are based on sales over time. For every time period (whatever it might be), Amazon goes through and see what book sold the most copies. It gets ranking #1. The book with the next most sales gets #2, etc. For the Eberron books to have a higher ranking than the Faerun books, they have to be selling more copies per time period than the Faerun books.
goblin_pride 02-04-07, 09:20 PM	Sorry about that but FR really needs something akin to Dc Comic's crisis on infinite Earths to clean it up before I even consider giving it any respect... Didn't the gods already come down and change the world there once? I mean come on, how long can you beat a dead horse before you realize it ain't gonna run anymore?
(Psi)SeveredHead 02-04-07, 09:42 PM	Didn't the gods already come down and change the world there once? I mean come on, how long can you beat a dead horse before you realize it ain't gonna run anymore? Every time the deities came down to Faerun, they just caused more clutter. An Infinite Crisis thingamajig (aka massive retcon) could potentially clean up the setting. I doubt it, though - killing off Mystra would chase away too many hard-core fans.
Neutronium_Dragon 02-04-07, 10:30 PM	It'd just make things worse. The big problem *now* is the way some of the FR novelists are constantly trashing large swaths of the setting with each new book. Dragonlance is apparently suffering from much the same treatment. Eberron has so far avoided this particular setting-mangling scourge because novelists aren't allowed to alter the setting when they write for it, but just watch what happens if/when that particular stricture is ever lifted...
cancerousmango 02-04-07, 11:02 PM	I think it simply boils down to what's the most interesting to read about. Eberron obviously wins this one. I always sum it up this way. If you've ever played Morrowind and Oblivion, the PC RPG's, then you know that Morrowind has this incredible aesthetic, where you never know what the next building you see will look like, or how the landscape will look over the hill. This is Eberron In Oblivion, (which has better graphics, being the newer game of the two) everything looks vaguely the same. The details are all there, but it's not at all interesting, because it's just medieval england/rome with a little magical window dressing, and some completely incongruous high magic thrown in. This is forgotten realms. Eberron wins.
PoeticJustice 02-04-07, 11:36 PM	There is no gamestore owner who could possibly know anything about how well a line is selling. Hell, there are probably no distribution companies who could possibly judge the success of a line based only on their sell-through. The hobby is industry is small and between cons, beer nights, and trench brotherhood I guarantee you that any hobby owner worth his salt knows every other one in the vicinity. If his products aren't moving and his buddies aren't moving then he probably has a darned good idea what's hot and what's not. Eberron's success probably varies widely from region to region, and given Wotc's modus oprendi nobody'll know until they stop making books. It is inappropriate to assume anything based on a single area or from Amazon.
Fabius Maximus 02-05-07, 05:35 PM	I heard that it sells quite well in the US, but here in "Old Europe" the setting isn't that well loved. Don't know why, but in Germany, only the ECS was translated so far. Maybe that's the problem.
Ozymandias V. 02-05-07, 06:35 PM	It'd just make things worse. The big problem *now* is the way some of the FR novelists are constantly trashing large swaths of the setting with each new book. Dragonlance is apparently suffering from much the same treatment. Eberron has so far avoided this particular setting-mangling scourge because novelists aren't allowed to alter the setting when they write for it, but just watch what happens if/when that particular stricture is ever lifted... Unlike with Faerun, the Eberron novels aren't canon. Meaning the authors could blow up Xen'drik by dropping the entirety of the Ring of Siberys on it and it would mean JACK for the setting.
Moebius 02-05-07, 08:41 PM	Unlike with Faerun, the Eberron novels aren't canon.How is this determined and who decided it, if you don't mind me askin'?
Azar_of_Faerun 02-05-07, 10:57 PM	It is said that what is called "the spirit of an age" is something to which one cannot return. That this spirit gradually dissipates is due to the world's coming to an end. In the same way, a single year does not have just spring or summer. A single day, too, is the same. For this reason, although one would like to change today's world back to the spirit of one hundred years or more ago, it cannot be done. Thus it is important to make the best out of every generation.
RavenGraygem 02-11-07, 02:19 AM	I think it's doing pretty well. Why? Because, on a fairly regular basis, someone like me comes along. I have a load of D&D books, stretching back to the first printing the 3.0 Core books. And in each instance, I bought a new book because it was useful for a broad range of stuff, even if it was setting-specific (Magic of Faerun springs immediately to mind). But I bought the Eberron Campaign Setting based solely on one factor: warforged. I thought they were so da*m cool, I went out and bought the book (admittedly, on eBay for a good deal less than retail) just to have the stats for them, to use in my own campaign world. I read the book through in one day. And found artificers in the process. I like artificers so much that I just recently got Magic of Eberron (again, for less than retail, but not exactly cheap on my budget). And I plan on getting Races of Eberron for more info on warforged (they're just that cool :D .) and Sharn: City of Towers (a very interesting place). That's two books purchased and two more planned. All because of three concepts. They were that well-written in my opinion. If it can happen to me, it will to others. Heck, the boards are proof of that. Almost every time I check the Eberron section, there's a new Eberron player wanting some advice. Even if they're buying the books as cheap as they can find them, they're still buying. Hardly sounds like the symptoms of dying game line, does it?
DBlizzard 02-11-07, 02:44 AM	The book ranks on Amazon are based on sales over time. For every time period (whatever it might be), Amazon goes through and see what book sold the most copies. It gets ranking #1. The book with the next most sales gets #2, etc. For the Eberron books to have a higher ranking than the Faerun books, they have to be selling more copies per time period than the Faerun books. As much as I'd like this as evidence of Eberron doing well, the rankings at that level or essentially meaningless. Amazon operates under the Long Tail (http://www.rampant-books.com/mgt_amazon_sales_rank.htm) principle. Ryan Dancey recently covered this in a post on EnWorld. Amazon is in the Long Tail business. Sales rank outside of the top 1,000 items or so tells you little or nothing about sales by unit volume in other channels. That doesn't mean that Eberron is doing poorly. It just means that any numbers aren't statistically different enough to judge how a product is doing overall.
Goemoe 02-11-07, 09:29 AM	Eberron can't be doing so bad. Even though FR is still selling better in germany (according to amazon.de) a new company just signed up for translation and distribution of DnD books. They even announced Sharn: City of towers in german for april 2007. Novels and adventures in german are out and more still to come. I don't expect someone to sign contracts in 2006 on a not so small scale, if Eberron isn't selling well enough ;) I expect more books to come even in 2008 :)
Willburn 02-11-07, 01:15 PM	I hope eberron sells well. Ive bought all the eberron books, and im considering buying the novels too to read into the background more so I can be a better dm. I also hope we will see more "fluff" on the races living in the seas. :) (So eberron must sell well and give us such books heh!)
Cabral 02-11-07, 02:30 PM	But I bought the Eberron Campaign Setting based solely on one factor: warforged. I bought Cityscape pretty much based upon the picture Robbed! by Eva Widermann (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/Cityscape_Gallery/101095.jpg). It's funny sometimes what hooks you on a product. :D
Edymnion 02-11-07, 02:45 PM	It is inappropriate to assume anything based on a single area or from Amazon.I think not. Amazon is a world wide distributor, and as such is pretty much immune to local variation. Poor sales in one region are balanced out by high sales in another, so what you get is a pretty consistant view of the average. How is this determined and who decided it, if you don't mind me askin'?WotC themselves said it. Novels are not considered part of the Eberron setting, and the timeline of the setting will not advance. WotC recognized that the entire problem with Faerun's power level and NPCs was directly a result of the setting trying to keep up with the novels, and intentionally took steps to avoid that with Eberron. The authors can do whatever they want, because essentially anything they do is meaningless.And I plan on getting Races of Eberron for more info on warforged (they're just that cool :D .)RoE is iffy. If you want mechanics for the WF, or the other new Eberron races, its a great book. If you want to get a grip on what the races are actually like, its lousy. It suffers from the same problem as the other Races of books, it presents pretty much a single stereotype of each race and doesn't try to do anything but stretch that stereotype out as far as it will go. If you want racial flavor, get the Player's Guide to Eberron instead, as its a much better book for that sort of thing (just ignore the sidebars, they suck).
RavenGraygem 02-11-07, 05:39 PM	RoE is iffy. If you want mechanics for the WF, or the other new Eberron races, its a great book. If you want to get a grip on what the races are actually like, its lousy. It suffers from the same problem as the other Races of books, it presents pretty much a single stereotype of each race and doesn't try to do anything but stretch that stereotype out as far as it will go. If you want racial flavor, get the Player's Guide to Eberron instead, as its a much better book for that sort of thing (just ignore the sidebars, they suck). Oh, I know the information might be sketchy. I simply see it as a case of sages (in-game) not having the slightest clue about the subject of their studies. Thus, that stereoype actually serves quite nicely, making my players believe something that might not even be accurate.
Edymnion 02-11-07, 07:13 PM	Oh, I know the information might be sketchy. I simply see it as a case of sages (in-game) not having the slightest clue about the subject of their studies. Thus, that stereoype actually serves quite nicely, making my players believe something that might not even be accurate.Just as long as you are aware that it will likely be a major influence in how they play future PCs of those races, go for it.
Korhal_IV 02-12-07, 01:10 AM	As much as I'd like this as evidence of Eberron doing well, the rankings at that level or essentially meaningless. Amazon operates under the Long Tail (http://www.rampant-books.com/mgt_amazon_sales_rank.htm) principle. Ryan Dancey recently covered this in a post on EnWorld. That doesn't mean that Eberron is doing poorly. It just means that any numbers aren't statistically different enough to judge how a product is doing overall. The other reason why I'd question sales comparison is that FR products came out long before Eberron did, therefore if you imagine their respective sloping sales graphs, Eberron is "above" FR because FR is "ahead". Specifically, the FRCS vis-a-vis the ECS; I think sales of the FR Player's Guide were hampered by the fact that it doesn't have "CS" in the name, leading to some disarray amongst fans who didn't go online to learn the difference.
dunkeykong 02-12-07, 09:32 PM	Well, given the fact that WOTC is pushing EBERRON pretty hard, I would imagine theyre doing quite well. Eberron was real breath of fresh air to gaming, FR had gotten kind of stale and Dragonlance is basically extinct. And lets face it Eberron is really a bit more modern in the way it handles things, through Religion and general philosiphy, the dark tone and somewhat bleak world resonates nicley with gamers. Also, Eberron is the first world to be created spefically with 3.5 in mind, though FR works, it was written with 2nd ed. rules. Granted, I doubt that Eberron will ever get to the stratospheric levels that FR got to, because FR was around longer than ive been. And Wizards is pushing some very quality content down our throats, the decision to outsource an original world is one of the best decisions theyve made in a while. Now granted, i can only speak for myself, but I now exclusivley play in Eberron. I can see myself in 20 years as one of those die hard FR players who refuses to change to the next big thing, which i doubt will be near as good as what Mr. Baker created.
Sturm Jaeger 02-13-07, 12:08 AM	I see no signs that Eberron is doing poorly. I'm a diehard fan of it now, myself.
MacGyver_ 02-13-07, 04:00 AM	I can fix this, with a piece of rebar, wire, a telescope, camphor balls, cleaning fluid, and terry cloth
dunkeykong 02-14-07, 03:05 AM	I can fix this, with a piece of rebar, wire, a telescope, camphor balls, cleaning fluid, and terry cloth psssh, The REAL MacGyver would only need the wire...
Sucros 02-14-07, 06:01 PM	I know the novels are selling well in Vancouver. My local fantasy/sci-fi specialty store is saying they're selling great. But it all does depend. One local FLGS says they can't give eberron sourcebooks away, while another is constantly running out.
Evilmonster 02-14-07, 07:31 PM	What out me off of Eberron for so long was the warforged on the cover. I thought it was a robot and wasn't sure I wanted anything to do with it. If my wife hadn't left me in the book store while she was getting her nails done in the mall I probably wouldn't have ever taken a good look at it.
Edymnion 02-14-07, 08:52 PM	What out me off of Eberron for so long was the warforged on the cover. I thought it was a robot and wasn't sure I wanted anything to do with it. If my wife hadn't left me in the book store while she was getting her nails done in the mall I probably wouldn't have ever taken a good look at it.Do we need to repeat the old cliche of "You can't judge a book by it's cover"?
dunkeykong 02-15-07, 02:05 AM	Do we need to repeat the old cliche of "You can't judge a book by it's cover"? Someones sig has in it: WARFORGED ARE NOT ROBOTS I think that should be at the top of the Eberron boards, right underneath: ABANDON ALL HOPE, YE WHO ENTER HERE WITH A SHRED OF REASON
Azar_of_Faerun 02-15-07, 08:01 AM	FR isn't stale...it's like a shelf of fine aged wine. It's been where it's been and it's hard to change it, but it's good. Eberron's more in the fermenting/bottling process, made of good stock, and still unsure where it's going for the moment.
Ravenscroft 02-15-07, 08:27 AM	FR isn't stale...it's like a shelf of fine aged wine. It's been where it's been and it's hard to change it, but it's good. Eberron's more in the fermenting/bottling process, made of good stock, and still unsure where it's going for the moment. Wine tasting (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wine_tasting) :D Many professional wine tasters, such as sommeliers or buyers for retailers, look for characteristics in the wine which are desirable to wine drinkers or which indicate that the wine is likely to sell or mature well.
Feather 02-15-07, 08:40 AM	I think Eberron is the campaign setting of the new millenium. It's cool, fusing a lot of very popular ideas and genres such as noir, steampunk, high fantasy, political thrillers and straight out indiana jones styled action. I do think there are some areas Eberron needs to improve on during its development and consolidation however. -More solid and intriguing religions, less blind faith, more divine power. -Addressing the existence of 15+ level characters and NPCs. I like the fact that leaders are not powerful 'bosses,' but I do believe the dnd game lends itself to giving real power bases warriors of classic fantasy power. -Avoiding DND in general's PRC power creep.
Nuclear_Buddha 02-15-07, 01:27 PM	-More solid and intriguing religions, less blind faith, more divine power. Blind faith is the only true faith. How much more solid can a religion be when it has pure belief holding it together rather than a god that literally comes down and kicks unbeliever ass from time to time? Not too hard to believe in that. But to really believe, even without proof? That's faith. And how the heck are the religions not intriguing? The Blood of Vol can basically encompass any alignment, how it that not an entertaining mess? -Addressing the existence of 15+ level characters and NPCs. I like the fact that leaders are not powerful 'bosses,' but I do believe the dnd game lends itself to giving real power bases warriors of classic fantasy power. The power bases of rulers are the people they rule, not their personal power. This is why kings need player characters to deal with problems. Let the player characters have their fun; don't promote the people with political power. -Avoiding DND in general's PRC power creep. Agreed.
mhacdebhandia 02-15-07, 08:02 PM	Eberron's religions are the best that have ever been published for any D&D setting, ever.
dunkeykong 02-15-07, 08:47 PM	Eberron's religions are the best that have ever been published for any D&D setting, ever. I dont know about EVER. I like the detached mentality of Eberrons Dieties. Its helps the PCs feel a bit more self sufficient.
Azar_of_Faerun 02-15-07, 09:46 PM	Blind faith is the only true faith. How much more solid can a religion be when it has pure belief holding it together rather than a god that literally comes down and kicks unbeliever ass from time to time? Not too hard to believe in that. But to really believe, even without proof? That's faith. Consider this-> Not every devout person, be they in daily thanks, or as clerics, see their god in their lifetimes. Devious gods can grant spells in place of a cleric's supposed deity, giving a deeper measure of faith. D&D religion =/= real world religion, you're already seeing servants of your god (angels/fiends) and manifestations (spells), so seeing a god, while a momentous event, would not be impossible
Adhevan 02-15-07, 10:10 PM	Also, Eberron is the first world to be created spefically with 3.5 in mind, though FR works, it was written with 2nd ed. rules. 2nd edition didn't exist when FR was released.
The_Robot 02-15-07, 10:13 PM	Well, given the fact that WOTC is pushing EBERRON pretty hard, I would imagine theyre doing quite well. Eberron was real breath of fresh air to gaming, FR had gotten kind of stale and Dragonlance is basically extinct. And lets face it Eberron is really a bit more modern in the way it handles things, through Religion and general philosiphy, the dark tone and somewhat bleak world resonates nicley with gamers. Also, Eberron is the first world to be created spefically with 3.5 in mind, though FR works, it was written with 2nd ed. rules. Granted, I doubt that Eberron will ever get to the stratospheric levels that FR got to, because FR was around longer than ive been. And Wizards is pushing some very quality content down our throats, the decision to outsource an original world is one of the best decisions theyve made in a while. Now granted, i can only speak for myself, but I now exclusivley play in Eberron. I can see myself in 20 years as one of those die hard FR players who refuses to change to the next big thing, which i doubt will be near as good as what Mr. Baker created. AMEN! i also game exclusivley in Eberron, at least in D&D...
Lady Morn 02-15-07, 10:14 PM	at our game, today, our DM was saying how he heard the fellas at our game shop saying they don't expect the Eberron line to survive based on how well (or not well) its selling there. Thats one perspective. I'd like to hear how you all see it doing. Thank you. As someone who works in a bookstore (B&N), I can say that we receive more Eberron books and those books sell faster than FR or Core D&D. On average, we receive five copies of a new Eberron title and those are gone within 24 to 48 hours. By contrast, with FR and Core sourcebooks, we'll receive two copies of a new title, we might sell one in the first month after release (if any at all), and after six months we send them back to Random House. The guy who runs the game/comic book store where I shop, has a similar story, only his Core sales are just slightly second to his Eberron sales. His FR sales are non-existant, so refuses to carry that line except for special orders. That's how it stands here. Bully for Eberron! :D
mhacdebhandia 02-16-07, 09:00 AM	I dont know about EVER. Well, I do. I like that Eberron's religions feel like real religions. I like that there's a reasonable explanation for why people belong to the Blood of Vol, for instance. I like that the Church of the Silver Flame originated within the context of the Sovereign Host, the way Christianity originated within the context of Judaism or Buddhism originated within the context of Hinduism. I like that the Sovereign Host is an absorptionist pantheon, akin to the Roman deities who were identified with the gods of peoples the Romans conquered, and that it's perfectly possible that the claims of the Sovereign Host's priesthood in these matters can be as dubious as the Romans' claims were. I like that there are several non-theistic religions. I like that even the cults of the Dragon Below have potential for complexity and nuance in terms of organisation, belief structure, and patronage. I like that the distance of the gods from the world allows for the same sorts of theological dispute and heresy as in the real world. There is no published official D&D setting with religions as cool as this.
Nuclear_Buddha 02-16-07, 04:46 PM	Consider this-> Considered. Not every devout person, be they in daily thanks, or as clerics, see their god in their lifetimes. True, but you're still left with the people who demonstrably have met their god. These people have pretty much unlimited moral authority, since they actually talked to god and got the "right way" handed down to them. This kind of removes any need for debate in a religion. It furthermore disempowers player characters, and restricts DMs who might want to have their own interpretation of the religion. Devious gods can grant spells in place of a cleric's supposed deity, giving a deeper measure of faith. I'm not sure what you're saying here, but I can remark on one aspect of it: you're still removing agency from characters and giving it to a god. Geez, can't people do anything for themselves? Or does a god have to constantly be behind every plot? I'm not anti-deity or anti-religion by any means (in or out of game) but I have a certain humanistic streak. Oh, and this "devious god" thing stinks, too (to high heaven, actually). I'm sick and tired of fantasy gods being basically really powerful people. Look, I understand it's human nature to anthropomorphize. It helps us relate to things which are totally outside our experience. Anyway, it cheapens a being of the puissance, majesty, and wisdom that a god must have to bring them down to our level by portraying them involved in petty tricks and transparent schemes. D&D religion =/= real world religion, you're already seeing servants of your god (angels/fiends) and manifestations (spells), so seeing a god, while a momentous event, would not be impossible Why not? Why does it have to be different? After all, we're all more familiar with the brand of religion that doesn't have a god literally cruising the block every weekend looking to score. And those servants of god, like solars and whatnot? Well, in Eberron, they've got to have just as much faith because they don't actually get to meet with the Big Guy(s) either. As for the spell issue, pardon me, but what does that have to do with anything? If wizards can cast spells on pure intellect, sorcerors can cast spells on pure force of personality, then why can't a cleric cast spells on pure faith? If he's got to have a god holding his hand the whole time, I feel sorry for the cleric, because he truly is the most pathetic class of all.
goblin_pride 02-16-07, 05:27 PM	If he's got to have a god holding his hand the whole time, I feel sorry for the cleric, because he truly is the most pathetic class of all. Spoken like a true druid.
ornitholestes 02-16-07, 05:46 PM	Of course the brilliant thing about Eberron's religions is the DM *can* decide that the gods are real in his campaign and that rare people have talked to them. The setting never explicitly says this is not the case, it just says the official material won't take a stand one way or the other. If your religions to be unprovable and issues of blind faith (which I prefer, even though I am religious in real life. . .) that is one thing. If you want your gods, or some of them, to defiantly exist (or defiantly not exist) you can do that too using all of the materials the game presents without altering any official material. My favorite thing about Eberron is that it somehow manages to make a very detailed, in depth, and intriguing world and still leave tons of options for the DM.
ArcTan 02-16-07, 05:54 PM	I think Eberron is the campaign setting of the new millenium. It's cool, fusing a lot of very popular ideas and genres such as noir, steampunk, high fantasy, political thrillers and straight out indiana jones styled action. I do think there are some areas Eberron needs to improve on during its development and consolidation however. -More solid and intriguing religions, less blind faith, more divine power. -Addressing the existence of 15+ level characters and NPCs. I like the fact that leaders are not powerful 'bosses,' but I do believe the dnd game lends itself to giving real power bases warriors of classic fantasy power. -Avoiding DND in general's PRC power creep. Without actually arguing about the validity of your points, you do realize the first two are things that the vast majority of Eberron fans like greatly about Eberron, right? Or, rather, they're the two main things that people who hate That Other Setting hate about That Other Setting that are the reason people wanted something different from That Other Setting to begin with.
ArcTan 02-16-07, 05:57 PM	Devious gods can grant spells in place of a cleric's supposed deity, giving a deeper measure of faith. Okay, see, this kind of plot is the primary reason I can't take That Other Setting seriously, not to mention The Setting Over There With All the Novels. (Way to go, adapting the historic transition from polytheistic to monotheistic religion to this world as a petty trick carried out by a really really evil but sexy goddess that can easily be reversed by stabbing her chainmail-bikinied ass with an Eponymous Weapon of The Setting Over There With All the Novels.)
Nuclear_Buddha 02-16-07, 06:34 PM	Without actually arguing about the validity of your points, you do realize the first two are things that the vast majority of Eberron fans like greatly about Eberron, right? Or, rather, they're the two main things that people who hate That Other Setting hate about That Other Setting that are the reason people wanted something different from That Other Setting to begin with. Meh, I rather like getting into the meat of his complaints. After all, there are a number of really great reasons that those complaints are invalid. It seems kind of flippant to just say "well, folks 'round here don't cotton to that" when the reasons they don't "cotton" to it are so good.
Tobek 02-16-07, 09:11 PM	From what I can tell Eberon is selling decently well. Unfortunately I don't see Eberon going away anytime soon. It's their new flagship setting and unless sales completely bottom out I don't see them dropping it. I personally really see some good things in the setting but I would cut out and change too much to use cannon (I would just end up rewriting most of it anyway). I would find it very helpful in cannibalizing it if I wanted to create my own setting though cause several things in the setting do show some promise. It comes across as too much geared to the video game crowd (ie: hey lets hope on the train and take it to the dungeon or fly there in our plane...er i mean air ship.) The noninvolvement of the deities is too reminiscent of the bad or "boring" part of Krynn history. I am happy for the Ebron fans that they are getting alot of attention and that they are really loving the setting. It really does not look like the setting is going away though because as I said it is Wiz's new baby. I honestly tried to like the setting (even bought the campaign setting) just couldn't force myself to use it with out major changes though. Best of luck to all you Ebroners... Ebronians. Well you know what i mean. I hope there is nothing but good thing's in the settings future for you all.
Sturm Jaeger 02-16-07, 09:32 PM	Unfortunately I don't see Eberon going away anytime soon. Nothing unfortunate about that. And it's Eberron. Two R's. :)
Tobek 02-16-07, 10:56 PM	LoL I stand corrected, guess I could have verified the spelling before posting. It's not like it's not posted in about 5 places on the screen at the moment :D
dunkeykong 02-17-07, 04:16 AM	2nd edition didn't exist when FR was released. wow, i dont often get out-geeked. My hat goes off to you. But I admit FR is alot older than I am. when did it come out and what rule set was it originally intended for? I assume the gran-daddy 1st ed. rules, but it could have had another system in the begining and was changed for D&D. I should call my dad, he played back in the 70's in FR.
dunkeykong 02-17-07, 04:22 AM	Well, I do. I like that Eberron's religions feel like real religions. I like that there's a reasonable explanation for why people belong to the Blood of Vol, for instance. I like that the Church of the Silver Flame originated within the context of the Sovereign Host, the way Christianity originated within the context of Judaism or Buddhism originated within the context of Hinduism. I like that the Sovereign Host is an absorptionist pantheon, akin to the Roman deities who were identified with the gods of peoples the Romans conquered, and that it's perfectly possible that the claims of the Sovereign Host's priesthood in these matters can be as dubious as the Romans' claims were. I like that there are several non-theistic religions. I like that even the cults of the Dragon Below have potential for complexity and nuance in terms of organisation, belief structure, and patronage. I like that the distance of the gods from the world allows for the same sorts of theological dispute and heresy as in the real world. There is no published official D&D setting with religions as cool as this. Perhaps your right, but I dont believe in absolutes. I do agree with you about the real world similarities with Eberron's Dieties, and I do like it. I especially like the material Faiths of Eberron has about religion and how painfully realistic the outlook is, as Im reading it I cant help but think that Mr. Baker had something to say about religion is general. Mybe thats what I should do, find a way to espouse my philosophy and become rich and famous at the same time...maybe ill start a church, thats where the money is.
Korhal IV 02-17-07, 04:47 PM	Secrets of Sarlona released Tuesday at my FLGS. On Wednesday, my buddy and I scooped up the last two copies at 5 PM. Keep in mind, Wednesday was Valentine's Day. That's some dedication (or loneliness!) on the part of Eberron fans! :P :D
Ishorn 02-17-07, 05:19 PM	Eberron's success probably varies widely from region to region, and given Wotc's modus oprendi nobody'll know until they stop making books. It is inappropriate to assume anything based on a single area or from Amazon. I whole heartedly agree with this. I am in Indiana and have been trying to find players for my Eberron campaign. I have had no success. I put up a flyer in one of my areas gaming stores that looked very similar to another DM's Forgotten Realms flyer. The Forgotten Realms flyer was full of players. I had none. I do not understand this but Eberron is considered for kiddies. I have my own egroup for Eberron and the average age of my members seems to be in the high 20s. So I do not see how this setting could be for kiddies.
Adhevan 02-17-07, 06:11 PM	wow, i dont often get out-geeked. My hat goes off to you. But I admit FR is alot older than I am. when did it come out and what rule set was it originally intended for? I assume the gran-daddy 1st ed. rules, but it could have had another system in the begining and was changed for D&D. I should call my dad, he played back in the 70's in FR. I'm never really sure whether to call it 1st edition or not. AD&D is what it was called then. It was sometime in the 80s. I don't remember exactly when. I just know I owned FR and I never bought any 2nd edition stuff.
ornitholestes 02-17-07, 06:27 PM	I whole heartedly agree with this. I am in Indiana and have been trying to find players for my Eberron campaign. I have had no success. I put up a flyer in one of my areas gaming stores that looked very similar to another DM's Forgotten Realms flyer. The Forgotten Realms flyer was full of players. I had none. I do not understand this but Eberron is considered for kiddies. I have my own egroup for Eberron and the average age of my members seems to be in the high 20s. So I do not see how this setting could be for kiddies. I wouldn't put too much stock in the people telling you Eberron is only for kids. This is probably just someone using name calling to put down something they don't like. It seems a bit silly to me to call people childish because their imaginary knights and wizards are running around a different world from your own imaginary knights and wizards. :D
Estelindis 02-17-07, 06:41 PM	Well, I can only go by my own gaming group, but we've bought more Eberron books than any other kind of D&D book (and I have a *lot* of FR stuff, because I DMed it for years). This is because they tend more towards fluff than crunch (unlike most recent generic supplements), and because said fluff is cool and interesting. The more we learn about Eberron, the more we want to know. :)
Ventifax 02-17-07, 10:11 PM	I game with a group that's pretty into Eberron, if only because warforged & dinosaur-riding halflings are cool. I get the impression that my usual DM likes Eberron a lot in that it sort of resembles the kind of homebrew settings he liked to build before it came out. I think there's a good mix of power-gamer stuff (warforged & artificers) & social/fluff stuff (Dragonmarked) without being prescriptive. I expect it's got legs.
goblin_pride 02-18-07, 12:57 AM	I do not understand this but Eberron is considered for kiddies. I have my own egroup for Eberron and the average age of my members seems to be in the high 20s. So I do not see how this setting could be for kiddies. My group's average age is in the low 30s. I hate to tell them this, but the level of intrigue in Eberron is geared towards an older audience. Hell, you couldn't understand Eberron if you didn't have at least a couple decades worth of exposure to the noir elements in books, movies and television. Show me an eighteen year old that even knows who Phillip Marlowe is and I'll be impressed. Sure, a kid could play Eberron, but would they get the same satisfaction out of it?
Korhal IV 02-19-07, 05:50 PM	Sure, a kid could play Eberron, but would they get the same satisfaction out of it? Er, yes? My group's 20-21 exclusively.
DragoonDarkfire 02-19-07, 06:12 PM	I'm only 17.
Fabius Maximus 02-19-07, 08:27 PM	Goblin Pride, the exposure to noir themes can come from newer media like some animes (Cowboy Bepop, Noir, etc.) or movies and video games that use the elements. (Payback, Fahrenheit, etc.) But I concur that Eberron is rather suited for more adult players.
Elemental_Elf 02-19-07, 08:48 PM	The average age of my group (including myself) is 18.
goblin_pride 02-19-07, 08:50 PM	Er, yes? My group's 20-21 exclusively. I'm only 17. Ok, first off, neither one of you is a kid. I'm sorry, I may be completely off-base in this, but I think by the time you reach 15-16 years old, you're as capable of thinking like an adult as most of the world's leaders are. Eberron strikes me as being written for people that have seen tremendous levels of political and social change in our lifetimes. The campaign being timed to start at the end of the Last War suggests to me that his Infernal Bovine Majesty remembered things like the fall of the wall in Berlin and the collapse of the Soviet system when he was creating the world. Subtle things like the advent of music television altered the world to extremes that most of the children that grew up with them can't understand the world from before. Alot of the world that we know today changed in the blink of an eye, with nary a shrug by Atlas, but in the world of Eberron, things like that have an effect. Eberron is a world of arcane innovation and political manuevering where even the smallest of event could have world-shaking consequences. The only way for younger players to really get the most of the game is the years it would take to consume all of the literature, film, history and television that contributed to the mindset of the people that wrote it and the DMs and players that fell in love with it.
UnderworldLord 02-19-07, 08:51 PM	I'd say the average age is any. Eberron's target consumer, if you think about it, probably doesn't have an age range, as it has pulp noir, adventure, and every thing in between in it. And for the record, I'm 18.
goblin_pride 02-19-07, 08:54 PM	Ok, now I feel old. I was shaving before most of you were born.
UnderworldLord 02-19-07, 08:55 PM	Thats okay. Old doesn't mean bad anymore. Especially since you are one cool old man! :D
DBlizzard 02-19-07, 10:01 PM	Here is a bit from the D&D Experience about how Eberron is doing from a thread on ENWorld (http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=188733). During the Q&A follow-up, there was something of a rant from a Greyhawk grognard who was upset at the number of Realms and Eberron products previewed while only one Greyhawk-specific product previewed was the Expedition to the Ruins of Castle Greyhawk. The response came in two parts: first (and I'm paraphrasing here, but this was the sense I got), he noted that while WotC knows there are thousands of Greyhawk fans out there - WotC does as much market research as any other company of any type out there - there are tens of thousands of Eberron and Realms fans, so 'deal with it'. At the same time, he also pointed out that the company is looking at the Expedition to Castle Greyhawk as a 'feeler' product: if it does very well, it absolutely suggests a greater demand for Greyhawk-specific material and would certainly motivate people within WotC to produce more of that kind of material.
bykov1 02-20-07, 08:14 AM	Eberron's religions are the best that have ever been published for any D&D setting, ever. Can you justify this assertation? Granted it is an opinion, but I can't see it. I am a big fan of Eberron. Me & my buddy decided that to start off his son he should be familiar with a) 3.x rules and b) a unique setting. We got sucked into enjoying both. However, IMHO, the FR pantheon has great color and personality. My 2E Faiths and Pantheons much worse for the wear. Everyone in my groups borrowed it on several occassions. Reading up on Eberron dieties, they seem very distant and hollow.....which is how they are sold to us. But given the respective involvement of the pantheons, I still would give a bump up to FR vs. Eberron in the diety arena. As for Eberron on the whole. The new ideas and concepts are top notch. It has sold two old gamers here and we can't stop eschewing praises about it to our friends. Eberron & Faerun are very divergent settings and great in their respective rights. I think I completely lost my point.....*sigh*. Anywho.....I buy up the Eberron material as it comes out. There seems to be several groups in my area that run Eb-based campaigns. I think Eberron is here to stay. Bykov.
Fabius Maximus 02-20-07, 10:02 AM	Bykov1: Did you look at Faiths of Eberron? It is a wonderful book (if you count out some of the PrCs and the chapter about the druidic sects). The designers wrote up a very convincing picture of religion that would work in a real world, too. The FR gods are basically just archetypes of specific niches of human or demihuman behaviour. Since Toril is/was a planar crossroads, this makes partially sense. But religion there is not very realistic. The fact that the gods really exist and everyone knows this makes it worse, because there can be virtually no change.
MartM 02-20-07, 10:44 AM	Sadly Eberron books are no longer translated in French, that's a huge market that FR is still flooding... Luckily, i understand english... :-)
DragoonDarkfire 02-20-07, 11:45 AM	Ok, now I feel old. I was shaving before most of you were born. You could be like... the old wizard we need to meet to gain the information we need to like... slay some kinda ancient evil.
goblin_pride 02-20-07, 12:10 PM	slay some kinda ancient evil. Now you're gonna kill me for being old?
goblin_pride 02-20-07, 12:14 PM	To get back to the topic, the gods of Eberron fit better into the thinking of the jaded, cynical mindset of the modern generation. The gods of the forgotten realems don't rely on blind faith like they do in Eberron, which makes belief in them seem somewhat silly. Of course you believe in the gods, one of the bastards stopped by for tea last week. Could just be me, but I prefer a bit more mystery in my religion than the forgotten realms provides.
Sturm Jaeger 02-20-07, 12:51 PM	Hey now, Tyr makes wonderful muffins.
Nuclear_Buddha 02-20-07, 01:52 PM	However, IMHO, the FR pantheon has great color and personality. Sure, I'll even agree this is true. But notice that you said the "Pantheon" has color and personality. This is because it's basically the deific equivalent of a TV show about high-schoolers. As for the religions based on these squabbling drama queens... well, meh. Without the gods themselves, they're nothing.
UnderworldLord 02-20-07, 11:45 PM	Sure, I'll even agree this is true. But notice that you said the "Pantheon" has color and personality. This is because it's basically the deific equivalent of a TV show about high-schoolers. As for the religions based on these squabbling drama queens... well, meh. Without the gods themselves, they're nothing. That is about as close to quoting someone for a sig as I might get...
dunkeykong 02-21-07, 03:16 PM	Hey now, Tyr makes wonderful muffins. And Lolths key lime pie is to die for unfortunetly, thats often what happens...
Moebius 02-22-07, 10:52 AM	how many books do each campaign setting have, total (since 3.0)?
Logos7 02-22-07, 11:28 AM	I really don't think you have to be any age to enjoy the ECS more because, its impossible to evalute two joys, long as everyone's having fun itis great. It's not the fact that the gods can come down and **** with you that is the biggest part of the problem i think. it's two things The Wall of Atheists where they die and go to suffer for all eternity til absorbed? don't know if this got schaffted yet, but it's one thing to try to emulate the high fantasy polydeistic god thing. Its another to stuff it down peoples throats the second thing isn't that seeing your god cheapens your faith. Its that the gods **** with things constantly, act like mortals and then don't follow that the whole way threw. One great divine war and that's it, I think FR is due for another AO be damned. Other Things like If you Pretend to be the follower of the Bloody Mummer Gawd you get struck down, It's all ARBITRARY and saying it's the gods doesn't help the setting any cause we all know Ed wrote the damn thing. Ed wrote a Arbitrary setting, and that got reflected in everything that's come since. Logos
Yakman 02-22-07, 11:57 AM	To get back to the topic, the gods of Eberron fit better into the thinking of the jaded, cynical mindset of the modern generation. The gods of the forgotten realems don't rely on blind faith like they do in Eberron, which makes belief in them seem somewhat silly. Of course you believe in the gods, one of the bastards stopped by for tea last week. Could just be me, but I prefer a bit more mystery in my religion than the forgotten realms provides. I totally agree. The gods of the forgotten realms are lame. The only time when they were cool was during the avatar novels when they were actually on Faerun slugging it out. Other than that, who really cares? I mean, if you KNOW that your God exists, then what's the point of faith? There's no moral struggle to believe like you have in RL (or Eberron :) ). The Faerunian gods had one thing going for them, Iyachtu Xvim. Do names get any better than that? And then they killed him off for his lame ass father, Bane, to return. So yeah, Faerun's pantheon blows.
bykov1 02-22-07, 03:16 PM	Bykov1: Did you look at Faiths of Eberron? It is a wonderful book (if you count out some of the PrCs and the chapter about the druidic sects). The designers wrote up a very convincing picture of religion that would work in a real world, too. The FR gods are basically just archetypes of specific niches of human or demihuman behaviour. Since Toril is/was a planar crossroads, this makes partially sense. But religion there is not very realistic. The fact that the gods really exist and everyone knows this makes it worse, because there can be virtually no change. You are absolutely right, the FR religion is not realistic, it is fantastic (notice root word "fantasy") You add this fantastic flavor to a pantheon, including the fact that they grant powers to their devout worshippers! In this aspect, Eb displays a contradictory dichotmy. In one hand ,you have stay at home dieties that don't mess with everyday life. On the other hand, you have clerics (some of whom just pay the weakest lip service) being granted clerical powers from said deity. I like the flavor of the Eb deities, but I have serious issues with playing a cleric in Eb. I think overall, I would love a happy medium between the two. If I was forced to choose, for a fantastic setting, I would elect a Faerunian Pantheon vs. the Eberron modus operandi. Bykov.
bykov1 02-22-07, 03:20 PM	Sure, I'll even agree this is true. But notice that you said the "Pantheon" has color and personality. This is because it's basically the deific equivalent of a TV show about high-schoolers. As for the religions based on these squabbling drama queens... well, meh. Without the gods themselves, they're nothing. Pretty much, yeah. Omnipotent hall monitors, if you will. Follow my rules, or no spells for you. Bykov.
bykov1 02-22-07, 03:27 PM	I totally agree. The gods of the forgotten realms are lame. The only time when they were cool was during the avatar novels when they were actually on Faerun slugging it out. Other than that, who really cares? I mean, if you KNOW that your God exists, then what's the point of faith? There's no moral struggle to believe like you have in RL (or Eberron :) ). Nevermind that whole, "Hey, here is your daily allocation of divine spells for the day....oh, and by the way try not to read too much into this, I may not actually exist" :uh-huh: While the Eberron dieties have a hands off approach (which IS a nice change), there is no way you can say they don't exist unless you can come up with some alternate and commonly held belief as to where "divine" magic comes from. Bykov.
ieattrollsforbreakfast 02-22-07, 03:42 PM	Nevermind that whole, "Hey, here is your daily allocation of divine spells for the day....oh, and by the way try not to read too much into this, I may not actually exist" :uh-huh: While the Eberron dieties have a hands off approach (which IS a nice change), there is no way you can say they don't exist unless you can come up with some alternate and commonly held belief as to where "divine" magic comes from. Bykov. Divine magic in Eberron comes from faith, not from the gods. That's why clerics in Eberron can practice god-less religions like the Blood of Vol and still get spells. The same goes for the Lord of Blades...some warforged worship him, but the LoBster himself doesn't hand out the spells. And that's also why clerics in Eberron needn't be the same alignment as their deity. So long as they believe its what the deity would want, they can do whatever they like and still get spells.
AntiSean 02-22-07, 03:42 PM	While the Eberron dieties have a hands off approach (which IS a nice change), there is no way you can say they don't exist unless you can come up with some alternate and commonly held belief as to where "divine" magic comes from. When faced with direct evidence of clerical magic, a skeptic in Eberron has plenty of alternate theories to turn to. Divine magic can be a manifestation of the fervent belief of the magic wielder; either the belief solely within him/herself, or some conduit to/channeling of a Jungian sort of collective subconscious, magical energies from the Ring of Siberys, swamp gas, etc. etc. Given that some clergy members, be they adepts, clerics, or what have you, can actually manifest powers, I'd guess that outright skeptics would be few and far between, and the debate over the exact nature of the gods mostly academic in nature. Disaffected Morgrave students might argue abot it vociferously over a mug of tal, but by and large, most folks would accept the tenets of the faith they were raised in, for the most part. Your posts have made me want to play a cleric who has become embittered and lost his faith, but still retains the ability to cast spells. Trying to figure out why that is still possible could be all sorts of fun!
Nuclear_Buddha 02-22-07, 04:27 PM	Pretty much, yeah. Omnipotent hall monitors, if you will. Follow my rules, or no spells for you. Bykov. That wasn't what I was saying, but you know, when you put it that way, the FR religions are even more feeble.
UnderworldLord 02-22-07, 04:42 PM	Of course, I'd say skeptics of the undying court, are few and far in between, since the people they worship literally walk around. Eberron, tothis extent, does have a slight mix of both hands off and hands on. You just don't think of the undying court, vol, or LoBster as gods generally.
Nuclear_Buddha 02-22-07, 05:04 PM	And none of them (not even the UC, as far as I know) are actually granting spells. Of those 3, only the UC is arguable powerful enough to do so, but only on a collective scale. And anyway, it isn't stated that they are granting spells to their worshippers, either consciously or unconsciously.
bykov1 02-22-07, 05:44 PM	Divine magic in Eberron comes from faith, not from the gods. That's why clerics in Eberron can practice god-less religions like the Blood of Vol and still get spells. The same goes for the Lord of Blades...some warforged worship him, but the LoBster himself doesn't hand out the spells. And that's also why clerics in Eberron needn't be the same alignment as their deity. So long as they believe its what the deity would want, they can do whatever they like and still get spells. Interesting. But what of those that are still granted favor in spite of their willful mechinations against their deity? Bykov.
bykov1 02-22-07, 05:51 PM	That wasn't what I was saying, but you know, when you put it that way, the FR religions are even more feeble. In comparison to RL faiths, I would agree and disagree. Once you have proof of a deities existance, it is NO LONGER faith. Faith is the belief in something, IN SPITE of the lack of physical proof. Faith takes much more character than that which takes its place in FR. When you worship in FR, you seek guidance from that deities niche. There is not the question of whether of not he exists, the only question is whether or not the deity will show you favor. So taking FR in comparison to RL, the character of RL believers is much more than that of FR. But it is comparing apples and oranges really. You get a whole different mindset when you have physical proof, let alone have the chance of actually meeting or slaying someone you could possibly venerate. Bykov.
UnderworldLord 02-22-07, 05:53 PM	Like on that thread about creating deathless? *shrugs* Not really sure to be honest. I'd assume that since you're not serving you're ideal's best interest, its probably not going to serve you. Just one of a thousand ways of looking at it though.
bykov1 02-22-07, 05:58 PM	When faced with direct evidence of clerical magic, a skeptic in Eberron has plenty of alternate theories to turn to. Divine magic can be a manifestation of the fervent belief of the magic wielder; either the belief solely within him/herself, or some conduit to/channeling of a Jungian sort of collective subconscious, magical energies from the Ring of Siberys, swamp gas, etc. etc. Given that some clergy members, be they adepts, clerics, or what have you, can actually manifest powers, I'd guess that outright skeptics would be few and far between, and the debate over the exact nature of the gods mostly academic in nature. Disaffected Morgrave students might argue abot it vociferously over a mug of tal, but by and large, most folks would accept the tenets of the faith they were raised in, for the most part. I guess for me, some sort of manifestation, like that in the case of clerical magic, would be proof for me. Maybe that is because in RL we are completely devoid of hard physical proof of the deities we venerate and such a boon would set the world on its ear. Now, if there were no discernable difference between clerical & arcane magics, I could see this sort of suspension in the belief of granted magics as being proof. This would, in my mind, bring back the faith aspect of ones worship. Your posts have made me want to play a cleric who has become embittered and lost his faith, but still retains the ability to cast spells. Trying to figure out why that is still possible could be all sorts of fun! I love the concept. I am glad I could inspire in one form or another. Bykov.
ieattrollsforbreakfast 02-22-07, 07:28 PM	Interesting. But what of those that are still granted favor in spite of their willful mechinations against their deity? Bykov. The point is that they aren't granted favour, no clerics are, the gods have no say in it at all. A cleric who discovers that a demon resides within the Silver Flame and decides it is his quest to destroy the Silver Flame itself gets to keep his spells, yes, but he is no longer a cleric of the Silver Flame. Instead, he is now a cleric of a principle, and draws his power from his belief in his holy quest. Yes, he has fallen out of favour with the Silver Flame, but his faith might be no less.
mhacdebhandia 02-23-07, 01:01 AM	Interesting. But what of those that are still granted favor in spite of their willful mechinations against their deity? If a cleric has deliberately turned against her faith, she won't be casting spells as a cleric of that faith. Now, for a faith like the Church of the Silver Flame, there's a ready-made alternative source of power: the Whispering Flame. Likewise, a cleric of the Sovereign Host who turns away from her gods might now serve the Dark Six. In the case of a cleric of the Silver Flame who has fallen into evil in his zealous pursuit of the Silver Flame's goals, however, he retains his powers. He doesn't serve the Whispering Flame, even though he's evil, because his faith in the tenets of the Silver Flame is as strong as ever. He's seriously misguided, to the point of heresy, but because he still believes he still gets his power from the same source. This is, of course, subject to the caveat that no-one really knows, in the setting or in the real world, whether the gods really exist or not. Could be that everyone channels energy from the remains of the Dragon Above whether they worship a god or follow a philosophy; could be that the gods grant all spells to those who support their goals whether they use the god's name or not.
bykov1 02-23-07, 03:18 PM	The point is that they aren't granted favour, no clerics are, the gods have no say in it at all. A cleric who discovers that a demon resides within the Silver Flame and decides it is his quest to destroy the Silver Flame itself gets to keep his spells, yes, but he is no longer a cleric of the Silver Flame. Instead, he is now a cleric of a principle, and draws his power from his belief in his holy quest. Yes, he has fallen out of favour with the Silver Flame, but his faith might be no less. So if I have a good idea, I am granted the ability to cast spells? Sounds weaker than FR, IMHO. If it does not matter whom I venerate, then why is there a restriction on spheres? Why is there even divine magic for that matter? If all I have to do is believe that some object/item/person has an influence on my life that I get to spontaneously cast spells out my arse.... I cannot fathom receiving great benefits from a belief system or faith without some governance of those benefits. Bykov. My next character is going to venerate frogs.
bykov1 02-23-07, 03:29 PM	If a cleric has deliberately turned against her faith, she won't be casting spells as a cleric of that faith. Now, for a faith like the Church of the Silver Flame, there's a ready-made alternative source of power: the Whispering Flame. Likewise, a cleric of the Sovereign Host who turns away from her gods might now serve the Dark Six. In the case of a cleric of the Silver Flame who has fallen into evil in his zealous pursuit of the Silver Flame's goals, however, he retains his powers. He doesn't serve the Whispering Flame, even though he's evil, because his faith in the tenets of the Silver Flame is as strong as ever. He's seriously misguided, to the point of heresy, but because he still believes he still gets his power from the same source. This is, of course, subject to the caveat that no-one really knows, in the setting or in the real world, whether the gods really exist or not. Could be that everyone channels energy from the remains of the Dragon Above whether they worship a god or follow a philosophy; could be that the gods grant all spells to those who support their goals whether they use the god's name or not. I see your viewpoint. It just makes me cringe that there are those claiming this to be "better" than FR, when it is a weaker justification than FR, IMO. FR & Eb are just different. I can accept it and leave it at that. Still no clerics for me in Eb. I am sure it is no skin off of anyone elses nose. As for the original topic. Eb is doing great. When there are debates as to which is better, etc. You know there is a good following. Eb is a great setting, with a unique flavor all its own. I love playing in the realm. Reyna Dennieth - Lesser Dragonmark - Sorcerer [5] Fighter [2] Spellsword [2] Dragonheart Mage [1] Bykov.
Hopeless 02-25-07, 08:56 AM	Every time the deities came down to Faerun, they just caused more clutter. An Infinite Crisis thingamajig (aka massive retcon) could potentially clean up the setting. I doubt it, though - killing off Mystra would chase away too many hard-core fans. Killing off Mystra? AGAIN?! I initially had doubts about Eberron but I bought it anyway simply because I saw it as an offshoot of the Final Fantasy idea and i wasn't disappointed! I used to get obsessive about Kingdoms of Kalamar but find myself more interested in Eberron and thanks to FF12 thats getting worse! See the Eberron Cartoon series thread for a better explantion of that last bit. Take care and all the best!
Puggins 03-06-07, 03:45 PM	But I admit FR is alot older than I am. when did it come out and what rule set was it originally intended for? I assume the gran-daddy 1st ed. rules, but it could have had another system in the begining and was changed for D&D. I should call my dad, he played back in the 70's in FR. I know this isn't strictly about the original topic, but I'll take any opportunity to geek out. The original FRCS came out in print in 1987, during the final hurrah of 1e. It was composed of two 96 page rulebooks and a really nifty hexless map set. To figure out the exact distance between points you used a transparent hex overlay that came in the box. Unlike the current ruleset and product paradigm, both books were pure fluff- there was hardly any mention of new game mechanics, the sole exception being the addition of two age categories to dragons (wyrm and great wyrm). I'll be honest here- I really don't think it would've made any significant splash had Drizz't not come on the scene almost immediately. He was a supporting character in the second FR novel published- he didn't exist in the original setting. If Mr. Salvatore hadn't plucked that particular Drow out of his brain, I'm betting FRCS would've gone the way of Birthright/Darksun/Al'Qadim. But that's just my opinion. And just to bring it back on topic: (1) The Eberron treatment of Religion is the best I've ever seen in any RPG, never mind just D&D. (2) Eberron seems substantially more popular on the boards, as far as that goes (not very far, but it's a data point). The equivalent boards between the two setting see eberron getting 2 to 4 times as much traffic. Since Eberron is much newer, I don't think this correctly reflects the popularity of either setting perfectly. (3) Both settings sell well enough to generate new source material for each. Eberron has been around long enough that Wizards must be well past the "flushing the initial pipeline" stage.
Nuclear_Buddha 03-06-07, 05:42 PM	(2) Eberron seems substantially more popular on the boards, as far as that goes (not very far, but it's a data point). The equivalent boards between the two setting see eberron getting 2 to 4 times as much traffic. Since Eberron is much newer, I don't think this correctly reflects the popularity of either setting perfectly. This is probably true, but only lasts as long as the board is still "open" to new members. As soon as there's a core of grognards to purge the newbs, activity will drop.
The_Robot 03-06-07, 06:14 PM	(1) The Eberron treatment of Religion is the best I've ever seen in any RPG, never mind just D&D. (2) Eberron seems substantially more popular on the boards, as far as that goes (not very far, but it's a data point). The equivalent boards between the two setting see eberron getting 2 to 4 times as much traffic. Since Eberron is much newer, I don't think this correctly reflects the popularity of either setting perfectly. 1 - too true! i have an NPC Silver Flame Paladin that will be figured into the campaign shortly and one of my player's younger brothers is joining the fray (i fear for his innocence and sanity!) and will be playing a Paladin as well, and i'm super excited about it! no one in the party has any religous affiliations yet (except of course for being hunted by the Blood of Vol and Emerald Claw, so they hate them, but that hardly counts), and i'm more than happy to get some character motivations other than the love of money and the smiting of one's enemies (my players are a greedy, vengeful lot)! all of the religons seem so real, and can really effect your character greatly...i like the distance of the dieties. i'd rather have realistic intangible Gods then more mythological like ones who can directly affect the world they "rule over." 2 - i've noticed that these boards are always producing great material and seem very popular. i play exclusivly in Eberron, so i've never been to the other boards though...