Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Kaodi 08-09-07, 05:10 PM	Inspired by this thread: http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=203529 If you were going to run a campaign in Eberron based on a conflict between Law and Chaos, what elements of the setting would you focus on, or make more prominent, and where would you draw the battle lines? In terms of planes, you have strongly lawful Daanvi, and strongly chaotic Kythri to start. In addition, Shavarath is mildly lawful where archons and baatezu rule, and mildly chaotic where tanar'ri rule. For the moment, I don't think I would worry about Xen'drik and Argonessen, or the Frostfell and Everice. In general, how would you rate the nations of Khorvaire and Sarlona on the Law/Chaos axis? Personally, to start off: Aundair - Neutral Breland - Chaotic Darguun - Lawful Droaam - Chaotic Demon Wastes - Neutral Eldeen Reaches - Chaotic Karrnath - Lawful Lhazaar Principalities - Chaotic Mournland (Cyre) - Chaotic Mror Holds - Lawful Q'barra - Neutral Shadow Marches - Neutral Talenta Plains - Neutral Thrane - Lawful Valenar - Chaotic Zilargo - Lawful Adar - Lawful Rierdra - Lawful Syrkarn - Chaotic Tashana Tundra - Neutral I bet I'm probably wrong on a bunch of those, but its a place to start. Also, given the grey nature of alignment I don't mean them in a hard fast way, but as indicators of where each side would have the easiest time finding followers. In any case, this is mostly just for the purpose of speculation, to see what could be done with the idea.
mahavira 08-10-07, 08:14 AM	It seems to me that the major exemplar of Law in Eberron is the Draconic Prophecy. Predetermination over free will is pretty classic law vs chaos material. I once ran a campaign (which ended early, alas) based on the conflict between Rakshasa and Dragons (and the sadly misled Coatls who thought that since the Rakshasa were evil, the conflict was about good and evil). In that conception, prophecy doesn't see the future, it creates it (a la Dune) and the Draconic prophecy was created by Siberys in an attempt to create a future in which it eternally ruled over a world arranged in some 'utopian' manner. Khyber didn't care for this future, and attacked Siberys while the prophecy was being created, and struck a mortal blow. Siberys had to do some last minute tinkering to make the prophecy lead inevitably to its rebirth, and this last minute interference is what leads to a lot of the ambiguity (and ultimate fragility) of the prophecy. Essentially the Last War was supposed to continue for another century or so, and the royal line of Galifar was to be wiped out. The war was to end with the introduction of a sovereign host theocracy with Dragonmarked houses as the official managers of the economy, with eventual shift to direct draconic rule, finally under the reborn Siberys. The prophecy is a large and powerful system, but the complexity required to function over such a long period of time (and the last minute alterations) leave it vulnerable to tampering: Rakshasa seek to manipulate the "if X then Y" forks to create mutually exclusive Ys, or to interfere with the X then Y progression, with the eventual intent of disrupting the prophecy altogether. The PCs initially encountered the concept when they fought a Rakshasa cult that was murdering fortune tellers (they tap into the prophecy and reinforce it), then ran into disturbing dragon cults (people turned into spellscales and dragonborn, and forcing 'preordained' events to happen) and true prophets, who simply foretold that the PCs would miss them. The prophecy was most effective against dragons and the dragonmarked races, least effective against abberations (one PC was a Synad) and outsiders from other planes; neither group can even perceive the prophecy, much less be bound by it. I then started running Red Hand of Doom (a draconic plot to wipe out the Cyran royal line and get Breland into a war with Darguun, all in service to the future 'utopia'), and the campaign died out.
Kaodi 08-10-07, 09:12 AM	Generally speaking, Couatls and Rakshasa are the lawful ones, with Dragons being variably aligned. Also, the Rajahs are variably aligned. That being said, the core idea of the Prophecy being a force of Law is worth looking at. I do not think any of the Progenitor Dragons actually created the Prophecy, so I think it would be more accurate to say that the conflict between them was in some way a manifestation of Chaos.
Ravenstein 08-10-07, 09:29 AM	I think this brings up a good point concerning Eberron's "loose alignments". Eberron isn't so much about good vs. evil as it is law vs. chaos. I like the tale in the beginning of Tyrants of the Nine Hells about the birth of Baator and such. In the beginning, it was never about good and evil, its always law and chaos. It was the interpretations on how to fight chaos (or law) that led to the developments of good and evil. I find good-evil axis in Eberron to be more of a personal view while the law-chaos axis is an external view. This being in the sense that, as an example, one can adhere to the laws of the land, but choose to maintain and protect those laws through selfish and personal means in a hurtful way with disregard to the feelings and goals of others; i.e. Lawful Evil. Good and Evil really come off as the weak part of the alignment scale. You have Cardinal Krozen who is LE, and runs the day-to-day operations of a Lawful Good organization. That's not to say Krozen goes off and does evil deeds; he's just a selfish prick who hides behind the laws of the land in order to retain his political power. Meanwhile you have King Boranel (CG) of Breland who runs one of the more progressive nations in Khorvaire. Boranel tries to do the right thing (Good), but doesn't very much care for how it gets done, he's brash (Chaotic). A lot of organizations tend to lean more on the Law-Chaos access as well; the Dragon Below wants to release Khyber and unhinge the world (Chaotic). The fact that the Daelkyr are chaotic-evil means that they too wish to sow their madness and care little for who or what it affects. The alignments in Eberron seem to be more like guidelines on how a character will act 9 times outta 10 to a situation; not so much a life philosophy that other campaign settings tend to make it out to be. Granted a Lawful-Good Paladin will always be a LG Paladin. But his good axis may just mean he does the right thing with in the law, not so much in the aspect of dedicating himself to actively hunting down evil wherever it may lurk, as they may in other campaign settings. A LE Politician may just be a selfish aristocrat hiding behind the law to stay in power; just because he's evil doesn't mean he's flaying captured virgins in his basement, sacrificing them to dark gods. I've always enjoyed Eberron's take on the alignments. It seems to make more sense to me than what I've seen other campaign settings bring to the table.
JulesCARV 08-11-07, 02:04 AM	If you were going to run a campaign in Eberron based on a conflict between Law and Chaos, what elements of the setting would you focus on, or make more prominent, and where would you draw the battle lines? Well.... I wouldn't run an Eberron campaign if I wanted to base the storyline on a conflict between Law and Chaos. I'd run Planescape or somesuch. There are some things for which an Eberron campaign makes sense, and some things for which you're better off using a different setting. (Nothing against either Law vs. Chaos-themed campaigns or against Eberron -- they just wouldn't work together) In Eberron, it would be really bizarre for the Blood of Vol, the Dreaming Dark, Kaius, and the Lord of Blades to get together and say, "hey, we're all Lawful Evil. Let's team up and kick some chaotic ass!"
Hopeless 08-11-07, 04:15 PM	Inspired by this thread: http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=203529 If you were going to run a campaign in Eberron based on a conflict between Law and Chaos, what elements of the setting would you focus on, or make more prominent, and where would you draw the battle lines? In terms of planes, you have strongly lawful Daanvi, and strongly chaotic Kythri to start. In addition, Shavarath is mildly lawful where archons and baatezu rule, and mildly chaotic where tanar'ri rule. For the moment, I don't think I would worry about Xen'drik and Argonessen, or the Frostfell and Everice. In general, how would you rate the nations of Khorvaire and Sarlona on the Law/Chaos axis? Personally, to start off: Aundair - Neutral Led by a conniving *** who would probably try to role model Margaret Thatcher if she knew bout her Breland - Chaotic A decent leader shame he's got politicians and other nobles looking to replace him... Darguun - Lawful Yes I suppose you could get away with slavery with that Droaam - Chaotic More neutral given they're working together even if the three hags are scary enough to enforce this Demon Wastes - Neutral Chaotic inside with Lawful guardians trying to keep the bad stuff from escaping... Eldeen Reaches - Chaotic Neutral again, the bad stuff is from Aundaire Karrnath - Lawful Giving necromancy and using undead soldiers lawful? I doubt it no matter what the excuse... Lhazaar Principalities - Chaotic Probably right Mournland (Cyre) - Chaotic Inside very likely the plane of chaos actually Mror Holds - Lawful Neutral again no matter if they're bankers and extremely honest do you honestly think they'd deal with anyone shady if they were Lawful? Q'barra - Neutral Maybe Shadow Marches - Neutral I would have thought they were Chaotic if you brand Breland chaotic Talenta Plains - Neutral Right chaotic again, there's halfling barbarians riding raptors and valenar clans riding around killing and enslaving anything that can't fight back need i say more? Thrane - Lawful Hmm can't argue with that at least with the parameters you've set Valenar - Chaotic Oh yes definitely Zilargo - Lawful Same as Mror dwarves Adar - Lawful Rierdra - Lawful Hmm don't think any matches in those rigid limits Syrkarn - Chaotic Have to read up about that place Tashana Tundra - Neutral A tundra? I'd say chaotic but I'd need to know more before answering I bet I'm probably wrong on a bunch of those, but its a place to start. Also, given the grey nature of alignment I don't mean them in a hard fast way, but as indicators of where each side would have the easiest time finding followers. In any case, this is mostly just for the purpose of speculation, to see what could be done with the idea. If this was classic d&d then you'd have a chance BUt its not although best of luck with your idea!
Kaodi 08-11-07, 10:54 PM	Well, I did say I was just speculating, :) . It would certainly be strange if it were self-motivated by the factions on Khorvaire and Sarlona, but if agents from Daanvi and Kythri were to take up residence on Eberron, they could have their own cold war going on behind the scenes. I think that I would say that Eberron was pretty much in the middle between when Kythri was coterminous (with its closest being right around when the war started), and slowly moving towards when Daanvi will be coterminous in fifty or so year. You already spotted the fact that a lot of the evil factions in Eberron happen to be Lawful Evil, which would mean that if they are gaining the upperhand that things could become really bad when Daanvi becomes coterminous. Especially if you view the Mourning as a major setback for the influence of Kythri. The reason why I listed Cyre as being chaotically inclined was that it was known as the artistic and cultural centre of the Five Nations, which implies a little more free-spiritedness than other regions. A campaign would not have team-ups so much as detentes. The agents of law try to keep some of their favoured factions out of each others hair, and part of the job of the heroes in not just to kick lawful evil butt, but to encourage lawful evil factions to fight over territory and power. It could very much be a campaign that balances mystery and intrigue with traditional adventuring. At the same time, the agents of chaos will likely be working on their own plot to build up enough power to be able to ride the wave of Daanvi's coterminous wave and come out on the other side with enough momentum to carry them into their own plans a century after that. The game would probably a lot of heavy thinking on the part of the DM and the players, were it to ever actually take place. You only get to act in a single point in time, hoping to favourably influence events that aren't going to happen for decades, or even centuries. But, there will still be many opportunities to kill things and take their stuff, and tick off a lot of funny looking outsiders. This also means that you can dispense with the sense of urgency and allow the passage of time in between major events in the campaign. Because it is kind of a huge, over-arching background plot, it would be easy for PCs to take time off to settle scores and just relax and build up their own power bases.
taski 08-12-07, 12:12 AM	I'm not sure the agents of chaos would have a long-term plan, or even consider themselves agents of anything. They might cause chaos, but it's not their cause. They do what's fun or what they feel like, and don't care about their supposed "place" in the cosmos. I'm fairly sure they wouldn't think the cosmos is so neatly defined with each and every thing having a tidy box it belongs to. If they can cheese off the forces of Law by putting things where the Lawfuls think they don't belong, all the better -- but it would be for the looks on their faces, not to prevent the Lawfuls from winning the boxy cosmos game.
The White Sorcerer 08-14-07, 07:23 PM	I find good-evil axis in Eberron to be more of a personal view while the law-chaos axis is an external view. This being in the sense that, as an example, one can adhere to the laws of the land, but choose to maintain and protect those laws through selfish and personal means in a hurtful way with disregard to the feelings and goals of others; i.e. Lawful Evil. Another example: A person can uphold the common good, but choose to uphold that good in a systematic and organized way; i.e. Lawful Good.