Human history [Archive] - Wizards Community

Human history [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Siran Dunmorgan
06-01-05, 02:01 PM In the thread on the new Dragonshard, and the elves of Aerenal, ydirbut recalled the Eberron Campaign Setting stating that:

"Tens of thousands of years ago, the vast continent of Sarlona was the cradle of human civilization."

Now, let's play a little what-if game, giving that statement the broadest possible range of interpretations; recalling that the term "tens of thousands" can be construed as meaning anything from twenty to ninety thousand:

• 20,000 years ago ( 20 Kyra ): Human civilization arises on Sarlona, pre-dating the Goblinoid Empire on Khorvaire by four thousand years.

• 30 Kyra: Human civilization arises on Sarlona, pre-dating the rise of the Undying Court on Aerenal.

• 40 Kyra: Human civilization arises on Sarlona, at the same time as the Quori invasion of Xen'drik, and pre-dating the fall of the Giant kingdoms.

• 60 Kyra: Human civilization arises on Sarlona, as the Dragons are teaching arcane magic to the Giants of Xen'drik and, incidentally, their elven slaves.

• 80 Kyra: Human civilization arises on Sarlona, at the same time as the Giant civilization emerges from the wreck of the Fiend/Dragon Wars.

• 90 Kyra: Human civilization arises on Sarlona, pre-dating all non-dragon, non-fiend civilizations of Eberron.

Here's the question: which of these do you think makes for the best or most interesting backstory?

My suggestion is the 40 Kyra mark, which suggests that human civilization was a Quori plot from the very beginning.

—Siran Dunmorgan
Gurv
06-01-05, 02:28 PM Well. I don't think that there has ever been a single monolithic human civilization on Sarlona until the quori-inspired Reidra began when they showed up fifteen hundred years ago. "Three thousand years ago there were a dozen kingdoms in Sarlona" suggests to me that civilization there was hardly united.

I suppose it would be possible that they were once one, fractured into many, and were then united by the Inspired. But that isn't the feeling I get.

I would place the first human civilizations on Sarlona at 30 kyra, about the same time as orcish civilizations arose on Khorvaire. But I think that there may have been many set backs and wars to prevent any single civilization from uniting into a single kingdom.

(I personally have a theory that one of these setbacks might have included the Daelkyr Invasion. We know what the invasion did to the orc and goblinoid empires, but nothing says it didn't impact anyone else. Sarlona may not have been wreaked, but perhaps the inhabitants were tainted a little. This taint, manifesting as latent psionics, might have been part of the reason the denziens of Dal Quor went there first).

Humans started showing up on Khorvaire about 3,000 years ago, after the Dhakaani Empire fell (due to the Invasion).
polt
06-01-05, 04:23 PM I think the Inspired were behind the fall of Sarlona human civilization. No doubt :)

I remember Keith saying Sarlona were divided into different kingdoms.
Streamweaver
06-01-05, 05:09 PM Honestly none of them interest me that much. I think the whole 10s of thousands of years perpetually in the middle ages thing is way overdone in fantasy settings. I suppose it's a hold over from the Tolkien style of worldbuilding but it doesn't really hold a lot of interest to me and makes the world seem very static.
Sarlax
06-01-05, 05:21 PM Honestly none of them interest me that much. I think the whole 10s of thousands of years perpetually in the middle ages thing is way overdone in fantasy settings.
Agreed. A million years of kings and knights gets old fast.

I don't believe Sarlona ever held a united kingdom until the Inspired came along. Humans on Earth have never united under a world government or even a continental government (excepting Australia). Without remarkable infrastructure, there'd never have been a united government of any kind, especially among the mercurial humans.
polt
06-01-05, 05:23 PM Well, I don't think you can compare real world humans to fantasy humans. If you ask me, it's not the same kind of people.
ydirbut
06-01-05, 05:29 PM I think he was aksing when the first human civilizations appeared.
Siran Dunmorgan
06-01-05, 05:29 PM Honestly none of them interest me that much. I think the whole 10s of thousands of years perpetually in the middle ages thing is way overdone in fantasy settings. I suppose it's a hold over from the Tolkien style of worldbuilding but it doesn't really hold a lot of interest to me and makes the world seem very static.

Human civilization in Verité is approximately ten thousand years old; depending on who you talk to, we were in the dark or middle ages for about a thousand years, roughly AD 500 – AD 1500.

We spent quite a lot of time in the stone age, even after developing cities. Things like the use of metals and writing have only been around for about half of human civilization; the first few thousand years, we were focused on stone and pottery.

It hasn't been a very static civilization, though: variations tend to come and go with the passing of the millenia. Some places—Japan springs to mind here—have managed to avoid most of the wrack, but pretty much everywhere else has seen civilizations rise and fall.

Oddly, the very first city of which we have any evidence is still inhabited, albeit they don't actually still use those ten-thousand-year old buildings, having built over them millenia ago.

—Siran Dunmorgan
Rotipher
06-01-05, 06:39 PM I wouldn't be surprised if "human civilization" on Sarlona rose, fell, and rose again, several times in the millennia prior to their arrival in Khorvaire. In the IRL ancient world, cultures emerged, spread, declined and were lost to the ages, often with less-settled human neighbors contributing to their demise. Perhaps there were even multiple "cradles of civilization" within the larger cradle of Sarlona, much as Asia produced largely-independent civilizations in China, India, and the Middle East.

That being said, I personally would like to see the Sarlonan humans' heyday occurring relatively late in Eberron's history. First, because humans are one of the more fast-spreading species among D&D races, and hence it's hard to imagine why they wouldn't have reached Khorvaire a lot sooner if they'd been sufficiently advanced to get there. And second, because I just love the idea that goblinkind *beat* humans to the punch, in establishing a stable, city-based, sophisticated society ... not just on one continent, but on an entire world!
Hellcow
06-01-05, 07:51 PM In my opinion, Sarlax and Siran (in his most recent post) are on the right track. While we may change our minds in the future and introduce a forgotten and fallen civilization, in my opinion Riedra was the first major stable unification of the people of Sarlona. The majority of human history was more primitive, and much of those "tens of thousands" would have been stone age societies; beyond that, Sarlona certainly had a long period of warring states and empires rising only to quickly fall again. And even when humans came to Khorvaire, they didn't possess all of the arcane techniques (or dragonmarks) that they do today.

I do believe that slow development is a common trait of the fantasy genre (or science fiction, with the Jedi apparently guarding the Republic for thousands of years). Realistically, over the course of 900 years, Galifar might have developed a little further than it has (Riedra at least has the excuse that the Inspired want stagnation). But I do feel that it is typical in fantasy; it's a fairy tale as opposed to history, and part of the problem you get when you have people who can live for a thousand years. Obviously, at this point, we're not going to suddenly condense the timeline by a factor of ten or anything like that, so it is what it is. There are cultures in our world that remained relatively unchanged for long periods of time; apparently the people of Eberron value stability and tradition over innovation.

One point I'll make is that the quori who invaded Xen'drik are not the same quori who exist today. While it's possible that they might have manipulated the people of Sarlona in order to create suitable hosts - what you have now is the next generation taking advantage of that work.

[EDIT] And as Rotipher has suggested, it was certainly my intention that the Empire of Dhakaan represent a major advance over the human civilization of that period.
Radkres
06-01-05, 09:40 PM I have worked off my Idea that the humanoid peoples of Eberron were brought by the demons from other worlds to be slaves for them here and that’s why you find ancient demon cities scattered over the planet. When the demon dragon war happened most of these cities were blasted back to the Stone Age. Only the slave races survived and this would give a reason for the disparaging levels in technology between humans and every one else. The humans got the short end of the stick were they were left with nothing and the others got a few artifacts from the demons and this put them a step ahead of the humans.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Siran Dunmorgan 06-01-05, 02:01 PM	In the thread on the new Dragonshard, and the elves of Aerenal, ydirbut recalled the Eberron Campaign Setting stating that: "Tens of thousands of years ago, the vast continent of Sarlona was the cradle of human civilization." Now, let's play a little what-if game, giving that statement the broadest possible range of interpretations; recalling that the term "tens of thousands" can be construed as meaning anything from twenty to ninety thousand: • 20,000 years ago ( 20 Kyra ): Human civilization arises on Sarlona, pre-dating the Goblinoid Empire on Khorvaire by four thousand years. • 30 Kyra: Human civilization arises on Sarlona, pre-dating the rise of the Undying Court on Aerenal. • 40 Kyra: Human civilization arises on Sarlona, at the same time as the Quori invasion of Xen'drik, and pre-dating the fall of the Giant kingdoms. • 60 Kyra: Human civilization arises on Sarlona, as the Dragons are teaching arcane magic to the Giants of Xen'drik and, incidentally, their elven slaves. • 80 Kyra: Human civilization arises on Sarlona, at the same time as the Giant civilization emerges from the wreck of the Fiend/Dragon Wars. • 90 Kyra: Human civilization arises on Sarlona, pre-dating all non-dragon, non-fiend civilizations of Eberron. Here's the question: which of these do you think makes for the best or most interesting backstory? My suggestion is the 40 Kyra mark, which suggests that human civilization was a Quori plot from the very beginning. —Siran Dunmorgan
Gurv 06-01-05, 02:28 PM	Well. I don't think that there has ever been a single monolithic human civilization on Sarlona until the quori-inspired Reidra began when they showed up fifteen hundred years ago. "Three thousand years ago there were a dozen kingdoms in Sarlona" suggests to me that civilization there was hardly united. I suppose it would be possible that they were once one, fractured into many, and were then united by the Inspired. But that isn't the feeling I get. I would place the first human civilizations on Sarlona at 30 kyra, about the same time as orcish civilizations arose on Khorvaire. But I think that there may have been many set backs and wars to prevent any single civilization from uniting into a single kingdom. (I personally have a theory that one of these setbacks might have included the Daelkyr Invasion. We know what the invasion did to the orc and goblinoid empires, but nothing says it didn't impact anyone else. Sarlona may not have been wreaked, but perhaps the inhabitants were tainted a little. This taint, manifesting as latent psionics, might have been part of the reason the denziens of Dal Quor went there first). Humans started showing up on Khorvaire about 3,000 years ago, after the Dhakaani Empire fell (due to the Invasion).
polt 06-01-05, 04:23 PM	I think the Inspired were behind the fall of Sarlona human civilization. No doubt :) I remember Keith saying Sarlona were divided into different kingdoms.
Streamweaver 06-01-05, 05:09 PM	Honestly none of them interest me that much. I think the whole 10s of thousands of years perpetually in the middle ages thing is way overdone in fantasy settings. I suppose it's a hold over from the Tolkien style of worldbuilding but it doesn't really hold a lot of interest to me and makes the world seem very static.
Sarlax 06-01-05, 05:21 PM	Honestly none of them interest me that much. I think the whole 10s of thousands of years perpetually in the middle ages thing is way overdone in fantasy settings. Agreed. A million years of kings and knights gets old fast. I don't believe Sarlona ever held a united kingdom until the Inspired came along. Humans on Earth have never united under a world government or even a continental government (excepting Australia). Without remarkable infrastructure, there'd never have been a united government of any kind, especially among the mercurial humans.
polt 06-01-05, 05:23 PM	Well, I don't think you can compare real world humans to fantasy humans. If you ask me, it's not the same kind of people.
ydirbut 06-01-05, 05:29 PM	I think he was aksing when the first human civilizations appeared.
Siran Dunmorgan 06-01-05, 05:29 PM	Honestly none of them interest me that much. I think the whole 10s of thousands of years perpetually in the middle ages thing is way overdone in fantasy settings. I suppose it's a hold over from the Tolkien style of worldbuilding but it doesn't really hold a lot of interest to me and makes the world seem very static. Human civilization in Verité is approximately ten thousand years old; depending on who you talk to, we were in the dark or middle ages for about a thousand years, roughly AD 500 – AD 1500. We spent quite a lot of time in the stone age, even after developing cities. Things like the use of metals and writing have only been around for about half of human civilization; the first few thousand years, we were focused on stone and pottery. It hasn't been a very static civilization, though: variations tend to come and go with the passing of the millenia. Some places—Japan springs to mind here—have managed to avoid most of the wrack, but pretty much everywhere else has seen civilizations rise and fall. Oddly, the very first city of which we have any evidence is still inhabited, albeit they don't actually still use those ten-thousand-year old buildings, having built over them millenia ago. —Siran Dunmorgan
Rotipher 06-01-05, 06:39 PM	I wouldn't be surprised if "human civilization" on Sarlona rose, fell, and rose again, several times in the millennia prior to their arrival in Khorvaire. In the IRL ancient world, cultures emerged, spread, declined and were lost to the ages, often with less-settled human neighbors contributing to their demise. Perhaps there were even multiple "cradles of civilization" within the larger cradle of Sarlona, much as Asia produced largely-independent civilizations in China, India, and the Middle East. That being said, I personally would like to see the Sarlonan humans' heyday occurring relatively late in Eberron's history. First, because humans are one of the more fast-spreading species among D&D races, and hence it's hard to imagine why they wouldn't have reached Khorvaire a lot sooner if they'd been sufficiently advanced to get there. And second, because I just love the idea that goblinkind beat humans to the punch, in establishing a stable, city-based, sophisticated society ... not just on one continent, but on an entire world!
Hellcow 06-01-05, 07:51 PM	In my opinion, Sarlax and Siran (in his most recent post) are on the right track. While we may change our minds in the future and introduce a forgotten and fallen civilization, in my opinion Riedra was the first major stable unification of the people of Sarlona. The majority of human history was more primitive, and much of those "tens of thousands" would have been stone age societies; beyond that, Sarlona certainly had a long period of warring states and empires rising only to quickly fall again. And even when humans came to Khorvaire, they didn't possess all of the arcane techniques (or dragonmarks) that they do today. I do believe that slow development is a common trait of the fantasy genre (or science fiction, with the Jedi apparently guarding the Republic for thousands of years). Realistically, over the course of 900 years, Galifar might have developed a little further than it has (Riedra at least has the excuse that the Inspired want stagnation). But I do feel that it is typical in fantasy; it's a fairy tale as opposed to history, and part of the problem you get when you have people who can live for a thousand years. Obviously, at this point, we're not going to suddenly condense the timeline by a factor of ten or anything like that, so it is what it is. There are cultures in our world that remained relatively unchanged for long periods of time; apparently the people of Eberron value stability and tradition over innovation. One point I'll make is that the quori who invaded Xen'drik are not the same quori who exist today. While it's possible that they might have manipulated the people of Sarlona in order to create suitable hosts - what you have now is the next generation taking advantage of that work. [EDIT] And as Rotipher has suggested, it was certainly my intention that the Empire of Dhakaan represent a major advance over the human civilization of that period.
Radkres 06-01-05, 09:40 PM	I have worked off my Idea that the humanoid peoples of Eberron were brought by the demons from other worlds to be slaves for them here and that’s why you find ancient demon cities scattered over the planet. When the demon dragon war happened most of these cities were blasted back to the Stone Age. Only the slave races survived and this would give a reason for the disparaging levels in technology between humans and every one else. The humans got the short end of the stick were they were left with nothing and the others got a few artifacts from the demons and this put them a step ahead of the humans.