Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Romulus LoneWolf 06-07-06, 12:04 AM	Something from Greyhawk that I was thinking to adapt to Eberron: different races of humanity. In Greyhawk, there are 6 major races of humanity sharing the Flanaess with the various nonhuman races: the Baklunish, the Flan, the Oeridians, he Olman, the Rhennee and the Suloise, all of which look rather distinct from one another, and each with it's own distinct traditions and culture, even though for the most part they've all mixed together to form a variety of blended types and in most practical matters, color and race don't really mean anything. ...I was thinking of doing something similar for the humans of Khorvaire, tying in their origins to numerous human nations that migrated over from Sarlona and eventually blended together to a certain extent, melding into what would become the Five Nations and the Shadow Marches. Now, before someone starts up about how I want to create attribute modifiers for races of different color, no. ...Not at all. Nothing like that in the slightest. I just want to add more variety to what would otherwise be "Generic Human from Kingdom A, Generic Human from Kingdom B," and so on. My idea would be that, for the most part, the humans of Khorvaire would've ended up setting aside past racial differences to become "The Race of Man", united in taming the wilderness of Khorvaire and building what would become Galifar. Over the three thousand years leading to the foundation of Galifar, humans of different races would've interbred, and their cultures would've merged together, eventually leading to the wildey various Human race of the Five Nations of today. ...But even today, there would be strong hints of Humanity's distant past variety, either in skin color, facial features or more simply cultural elements; But a nice twist would be for these elements to be intermixed, so you could end up with a Black Human from Karrnath or an asian-looking Brelander. ...Such a melting-pot attitude would also be a good way to explain the inclusion of Oriental-style classes into the world of Eberron: they'd be ramnants of a past Sarlonan asian culture.
DragonWatcher 06-07-06, 11:00 AM	While you are certainly free to do anything that you want in your game (and in general I don't believe that this is a bad idea at all), there are a couple reasons why I don't believe that this is realistic. First, all of the humans from Khorvaire are from the same source... Sarlona. There is no reason to believe that there would be much racial diversity in Sarlona. Of course, if you want there to be, that's fine, but there's nothing really indicating that to be fact. Although, honestly, at this point we know precious little about Sarlona, so let's move back to Khorvaire. Even if we assume that the original settlers of Khorvaire were of different physical "races" of humanity, thousands of years of interbreeding would really homoginize them into one stock. Interbreeding would have an effect at a far faster pace than genetic evolution to live within a certain area. There is a comedian (I believe that he's Indian (from India, not Native American)) who does a bit about how in the near future there won't be black people, brown people, asians, and whites any longer... everyone will be beige. I would guess that over thousands of years, that would happen on Khorvaire. I also have to say that I don't understand why there is an attitude that says: If you want to use oriental-style classes, the people with them have to be shorter with black hair, yellow skin and squinty eyes. I mean, it is entirely possible that a group of people who look just like everyone else would have a culture that developed samurai, ninja, and wu-jen. I don't think that having people look differently would really hurt the game in any way. If you think that it would enhance your game, then I say go for it. I just think that it doesn't make sense to me that humans from Breland would look physically different from humans from Karrnath. Their style of clothing would be different, the way they cut their hair (or wear facial hair) might be different, their food would be different... but genetically there hasn't been enough time for them to develop physical differences due to climate or region.
Charles Phipps 06-07-06, 12:35 PM	I disagree. I think of Khovaire as something of a melting pot where people are pretty colorblind even as they have hundreds of different ethnic groups, just nothing particularly attached to them.
DragonWatcher 06-07-06, 02:17 PM	Again, your Eberron, your call... but I wonder if you could site even a single reference as to where there are even a dozen different ethnic groups, let alone hundreds.
sidekick 06-08-06, 09:02 AM	Well, I can't provide a page reference or anything, but I distictly remember Sarlona (later Riedra0 being made up a large number of human kingdoms. The Quori gained access to some of the lords / kings of these kingdoms / baronies and then started their slow breeding programme & war for control of Sarlona. They eventually combined these disaparate nations into one glorious empire where everyone is happy & equal etc... It's not much of stretch to say that these kingdoms could have represented different ethnic / racial groups. Sure not ALL of them, but say one larger natio nwith a eurpoean race, a couple of asiatic / mongoloid nations and perhaps even an aboriginoid group of kingdoms etc. Peopel from all groups came with Lhazaar - thus various ethnic groups / skin colours within Khorvaires nations. [DM Note] While I don't see a problem with having different ethnic groups, I'd be cautious about assigning cultureal identies to these groups. Karrn's identify as Karrns, be they human, elf or dwarf. Human cultural identities within nations would have a negative effect on nationalism, which I'd want to avoid as a DM.[/DMs note]
DragonWatcher 06-08-06, 09:58 AM	Lest I be misunderstood, let me try to clarify my stance... As I said, we know precious little about Sarlona. It's true that there could be some major geographical diversity which would have caused ethnic diversity, but at this point we really don't know (which is why I repeatedly say... Your Eberron... Your Call). That said... Point 1 - Humans are not native to Khorvaire, they emmigrated there. Assuming that humans of different ethnic stock all came over on the trip, they would not (logically) have then segregated themselves into different Regions (Okay, everyone with black hair and blue eyes go north... we'll call that Karrnath). Instead, they would have likely stayed mixed. Therefore, even if they didn't interbreed into one homogenous ethnicity, there would still be no noticable ethnic distinction from one region to another. Instead, each region would likely be comprised of members of all ethnicities. Point 2 - If Khorvaire is a melting pot of humans of all ethnicities living together (for around 3,000 years), then unless there is a stubborn penchent for ethnic discrimination they would have intermingled... and over the course of thousands of years the interbreeding would have homoginized the ethnicities nicely into one "Khorvarian" human. The only real distinction of ethnicity at this point would be if humans from the original kingdoms (assuming they stayed seperate from one another) come to Khorvaire. Now, these points mainly deal with genetic differences between people. While there may be people with black hair and blue eyes everywhere in Khorvaire, it is still certainly reasonable (and I would even say encouraged) to play up the CULTURAL differences between people. We know that the Karrns are a cold, tough people with a warrior's mentality, while Brelanders are friendly and open. It doesn't matter if they have black hair, blonde or red. Heck, it doesn't even matter if they're human, dwarf, or gnome. Playing up those differences seems much more logical and realistic to me.
Romulus LoneWolf 06-08-06, 08:23 PM	Well, I would imagine that even 3000 years, the humans of Khorvaire wouldn't have perfectly melded into a single race. I'm not saying they'd all stay segregated, but unless everybody interbred right from the start, it would take many centuries for all of the races to blend together perfectly, even if they were trying to. ...Which isn't to say that a sentiment of Human Unity wouldn't have arisen, or that the cultures wouldn't have merged together to form the Five Nations we know today.
cancerousmango 06-08-06, 09:31 PM	Here's how I run it. Random characters are black or asian or whatever. I make it so that humans aren't so racist against other humans, they're racist against the other races. Because imagine if we had changelings and warforged, we would band together, black white or whatever, and hate them with our awful little hearts.
superdeadsmurf 06-08-06, 11:58 PM	While Khorvaire is and should be a melting pot of the human race, I think it helps national character to establish that people of lighter skin will be more common the farther north you are, as basic biology will attest, lighter skin pigments allow in more sunlight for health reasons; so peoples with lighter skin colours will be more successful with the longer winters that occur from being farther north. So while you won't exclusively find white folks from Karrnath, Lhazar and northern Aundair, the population will probably be predominately pale-skinned (probably 55% or so of the population.) While People from Breland will more likely be black/brown/olive etc (again probably 55% or so of the population of the south of Breland) So when you're giving detailed descriptions of humans in Breland, remember that more likely than not the people should be darker-skinned, and most of those karnn necromancers are pasty white-boys.
DragonWatcher 06-09-06, 09:49 AM	...I think it helps national character to establish that people of lighter skin will be more common the farther north you are, as basic biology will attest, lighter skin pigments allow in more sunlight for health reasons... While this is true, this kind of genetic evolution takes a great deal longer than 3000 years to occur. My point is that it's either a melting pot (meaning that there are different ethnicities but each one is just as likely to occur in Karrnath as they are to occur in Breland) or it's homogenized into a single ethnicity with minor distinctive differences. Evolution is a LOT slower than changes occurring from mixing different bloodlines. If what Romulous said is true, and that 3000 years would not be enough time to homogenize the race (which I might argue with, but it really doesn't seem to matter, and I'm not enough of an expert on that to bring much more than hypothesis to the table), then it CERTAINLY isn't long enough to evolve the population to differ by region. Remember, humans came to Khorvaire from other nations. Now, where the evolution of different ethnicities on Khorvaire really makes sense to me is with the various goblinoid races. Since they are native, as are orcs, I would totally expect the orcs and goblinoids from the Mror Holds to be lighter in skin than those from Darguun and the Shadow Marches. I guess that different ethnicities of human aren't going to break the game. However, I just think that the differences in CULTURE based on their national identity, instead of their ethnicity.
Kinger 06-09-06, 06:52 PM	Just to lend my voice to the great debate: I agree with the idea that 3000 ideas isn't long enough for Khorvarian humans to evolve based on their geography. Any visual genetic differences would come from much longer ago, back from Sarlona. Assuming equatorial regions and whatnot function the same on Eberron as they do on Earth (which isn't necessarily a valid assumption, note), then there's a definate possibility that skin pigmentation, etc. based on geography could develop given a long, long time (ie: much longer than humans have been on Khorvaire). If so, Sarlona appears to provide sufficiently diverse geography to allow such genetic distinctions in early humanity. Once said humanity emigrated to Khorvaire (or hell, even much earlier depending on how much a melting pot pre-Quori Sarlona was), however, all bets were off. So, in my eyes, there is sufficient justification for having humans of different skin-tones, but there is absolutely no need to base that on where in Khorvaire the person lives. Now, having said that, in my Eberron (and I stress it as being the Eberron I run, not necessarily the one in WotC canon) the initial settlers of Thrane were predominantly dark-skinned. I just find the image of a knight with ebony skin and shining silver plate to be a nice visual contrast, but that's just me. Similarly, the original Karrnathi settlers were very pale-skinned. Since the royal lineage of Galifar was from Karrnath, I use that as justification for the light skin of every depicted monarch in WotC's art. Kaius is white, Boranel's white, etc. They're all from the same lineage, after all, so it makes sense. When it comes to Khorvaire natives, however (gnomes, orcs, and goblinoids, for example), geography can be a much more valid factor in genetic development. In my Eberron, the goblins whose bloodlines have always lived around Breland are rather yellow in skin pigmentation and don't have much in the way of body hair (Sharn's a hot, sticky place after all). Meanwhile, goblins from further north (Karrnath, for example) are almost furry, and have darker-coloured skin to match their environment (I view goblins as predominantly subterranean/nocturnal creatures, so pigmentation doesn't have much to do with blocking out the sun). Meanwhile, Gnomes are almost all of darker skin tones, ranging from the colour of potting soil to an almost coppery red. Orcs from the Shadow Marches are browny-grey and have short or little hair (to make swimming easier), and those of the Mror mountains are grey-green with very thick, long hair and beards. Of course, that's just how I view things in my mind's eye. Yours may see things entirely differently. :)
Edymnion 06-09-06, 07:07 PM	Keith has said many times (and I agree with him) that the inhabitants of Khovaire do not care what color or race you are so much as what nationality you are. There is little inherent racism (although the Karnnathi would likely hate elves because of the constant Valenar incursions), but a lot of nationalism. So its not so much as "Don't you intermingle with those redheads over there" so much as it is "You don't go marrying a Cyrian, you hear?". And as such, the nations and regions tended to breed within themselves, keeping local populations distinct from the others. But some of what you want is already done. Five Nations has a few national traits. Like inhabitants of Sharn having a bonus to climb (since everybody has tried to climb the towers at one time or another) and a penalty to other things relating to life outside of Sharn (because the world is sharn, who cares about all the low-landers out there?). Basically, if you want to mix it up, then make regional feats and starting packages, not racial ones. Black, white, short or furry, people from one region will always have more in common with each other than people of the same race.
taski 06-09-06, 08:12 PM	Actually, a lot of interbreeding doesn't make the stranger traits go away. The recessive traits, blue eyes as an example, will continue to hide out in the gene pool until two people who have the gene (neither of them need to display blue eyes) mate, and by chance produce a kid who inherits both blue eye genes. That kid gets blue eyes, even if nither his parents nor grandparents had blue eyes. There's Mendelian Genetics (http://anthro.palomar.edu/mendel/mendel_1.htm) for you. I like to work with the assumption that Sarlona had different ethnicities in its humans. Sarlona has a very wide lattiudinal (north to south) range, and with Eberron being a globe, the areas closer to the equator do get more sun. Also, even though we know nothing about Sarlonan terrain, I believe it's safe to assume the sizable continent is not one enormous plain. So I believe it's not too much of a stretch to say some kingdoms had people who looked different from other kingdoms' people. When Lazhaar brought a whole bunch of people from these different ethnicities over, not all of them interbred right away. It's just a little harder to marry someone of a totally different culture than it is to marry one of your own; though that's not to say it didn't happen, it just wasn't the easy way, and so wasn't the norm. Also, people of any one culture would stick together, since they understood one another and shared traditions. When one group moved south or west, they'd be mostly from the same Sarlonan region/culture, though some of different ethnicities would tag along (especially those husbands and wives from earlier). The real interbreeding started when Galifar united the nations. Everyone was under the same flag, people could move around without being attacked, and a good number of cultural practices from each region spread wide enough to become the "Official Galifaran Way" of doing things, while the rest atrophied. That is, until the Last War, and national culture suddenly became popular again, with revivals of old, wierd traditions that no one really understood anymore. The interbreeding that occured during those 1000 years remained in place, of course, and nationality is now all about where you were born and whose tradtions you hold to, with physical appearance very, very low on the list. Anyway, in my game, nations may have some predominant appearances in humans, but these would be about 30% of the national human population, with another 40% being wide variations on the theme, and the remaining 30% being completely different. I like it this way; it allows a player to have a character look however they want (how do you get a unique-looking PC when everyone is brown-eyed mocha?), while not being tied to a nationality, and nations can keep a hint of that kind of flavor. For example, a really dark-skinned human PC with greenish brown eyes was born in Karrnath to Karrnathi parents. This guy considers himself a Karrn, dresses like a Karrn, speaks like a Karrn, and is treated like a Karrn. For everyone's purposes, he is a Karrn. If he goes to Breland, he might dress like a Brel, but only because it's hot there and Karrnathi coats just aren't made for the heat. Some people (but not all) may assume he's a Brel, but they will know he's a Karrn when he speaks, by his accent, gestures, and idioms, and will thenceforth treat him like a Karrn (for better or worse).
ArcTan 06-09-06, 08:53 PM	Just to throw this out, it is stated -- despite people's tendency to assume by default that D&D characters will be Caucasian-looking -- that Jaela Daran has dark skin and curly black hair (i.e. she looks like how we'd think people from Africa look). No particularly big deal is made of this, implying that her phenotype is not uncommon in Thrane.
Sarlax 06-09-06, 08:57 PM	I like to work with the assumption that Sarlona had different ethnicities in its humans. Sarlona has a very wide lattiudinal (north to south) range, and with Eberron being a globe, the areas closer to the equator do get more sun. Also, even though we know nothing about Sarlonan terrain, I believe it's safe to assume the sizable continent is not one enormous plain. This is something I occasionally point out when this topic comes up. With the very large range of the continent and probable geographic diversity that it would produce, Sarlona should be home to many different ethnicities. As for Khorvaire, if we exclude magic and interspecies breeding, we might expect a more homogenized population. Lhazaar's expedition came from the north end of Sarlona. If her original exploration crew came from the north as well, then we'd expect the founding human population of Khorvaire to be fair-skinned. The crew might have been diverse, of course. Even then, though, such a small population would have high gene flow, and their descendents would likely have mingled to produce a single race. 1500 years later, a second wave of humans migrates from Sarlona. Unlike the first group, these people probably came from all over the original continent to escape the Inspired-inspired wars. The landed in western Khorvaire, though. This means areas like west Breland and the Shadow Marches should have the most diverse human populations. Once you include magic and interbreeding, you can throw all these assumptions away. Elves and orcs both easily breed with human and this introduces all kinds of racial variables. Humans with orc blood might have tusks or green skin. Changelings make it unbelievably complicated. A changeling could have a dozen hobgoblin ancestors before mating with a human. This introduces centuries of hobgoblin genes into a human. Who knows what this person will look like? Once you add in magical experimentation, Dragonmarked House eugenics, and draconic family, predicting racial patterns becomes impossible.
Sarlax 06-09-06, 09:00 PM	To follow up, I agree with others who've argued that racial tension (in-species) should be low or absent among humans. 3000 years of dealing with other hostile sapiens (goblins, for instance) should make dark and light humans pretty comfortable around each other.
Romulus LoneWolf 06-09-06, 11:31 PM	To follow up, I agree with others who've argued that racial tension (in-species) should be low or absent among humans. 3000 years of dealing with other hostile sapiens (goblins, for instance) should make dark and light humans pretty comfortable around each other. Yeah, that's what I was thinking. It's kinda hard seeing a person of a different skin color as subhuman when you've got an orc or a goblin standing across from you on the other side of the room. Heck, the struggles against the goblinoids alone would've driven humans of all sorts to "round up the wagons" together as it were.
Kinger 06-10-06, 12:19 AM	There's a quote from Terry Prachett (I think) on this very subject. Something along the lines of "black and white joining together to beat up green."
Korhal_IV 06-10-06, 01:52 AM	Just to throw this out, it is stated -- despite people's tendency to assume by default that D&D characters will be Caucasian-looking -- that Jaela Daran has dark skin and curly black hair (i.e. she looks like how we'd think people from Africa look). No particularly big deal is made of this, implying that her phenotype is not uncommon in Thrane. I've seen this thrown around on the boards, and it's a cool idea. Can I get a page/book reference? I'd like to see if it's canon. Can't have my warforged cleric not recognizing his pontiff!
OneWinged4ngel 06-10-06, 02:02 AM	It's right next to Jaela's stat block in Five Nations. It is canon.