Post/Author/DateTime	Post
sorreahdarkhart 04-26-07, 04:40 AM	My curiousity gets the better of me sometimes. I tried reading the "Ask Keith" lumping, and after the fourth page my eyes began to hurt and my brain started to parboil, so I've gotta ask this. Where exactly would I put the Gensai from FR into Eberron? I've mulled over the world map long enough that I've gotta know before I start an Eberron campaign for my friends. I've pictured the Water Gensai dwelling primarily in the Lhazaar Principalities, but I'm at a loss for the others.
Deekin 04-26-07, 01:19 PM	Gensi are a breeding experiment from the gnomes of Zilgaro. They're what happens when someone with elemental graphs reproduces. They are rare people touched by manifest zones. BTW: Gensi are from Planescape.
Arcane Guyver 04-26-07, 01:21 PM	As their a special hybrid race that (I'm guessing) doesn't breed true, I wouldn't put them in any specific location. They're probably as common as planetouched, of which I've only seen one official example (funnily enough, he's a Lhazaar Prince who happens to be an aasimar). I don't know a great deal about the genasi, however - if they require a specific environment to live in, ignore this answer as they'd stick to the environment that suits them.
Nived 04-26-07, 01:48 PM	I have a recurring running theory in my campaign, its nothing earthshattering and its not a major plot point its just something I saw as a natural extention of presented material. So every so often I make some referance to it over the course of an adventure. The various giant spicies of Xen'Drik and the Drow came from experimentation with elementals. Elemental grafting as presented in Magic of Eberron is a primitive and early form of this experimentation that has been copied by the Gnomes. The Ubergen believe that drow game from binding shadows into elves... well maybe they're right, there's Shadow Elementals in Tome of Magic. Likewise many (not all but many) Giant types can be explained with binding elementals to themselves. Not simple grafting, though it may have started like that, but merging their beings with the essence of say a fire elemental (Fire Giants). Following along this same vein, I believe you could have an Gensi develop in Zilargo, either from direct experimentation, or some freakish accident where two people with a number of Elemental grafts have a child and the child is affected.
ieattrollsforbreakfast 04-26-07, 01:57 PM	I'd have the most common source of genasi being manifest zones. Humanoids conceived, developed or born in manifest zones to the elemental planes, Lammania, Fernia and Risia (though the latter might be left out, I don't know of any cold genasi) might be born with the genasi traits or develop them over time. I prefer that explanation to the Zilargo experiments, I don't think they are that advanced with elemental binding. The drow and giant techniques should work to that effect though, since we have elemental version of giants as Nived points out.
sorreahdarkhart 04-26-07, 03:28 PM	Good point. Fernia and Lamannia eh? I'll have to cruise my books and find manifest zones where they connect in Eberron. Thanks a bundle!
Alex_ 04-26-07, 10:08 PM	Genasi have a chance of being born when concieved in a manifest zone when the relevant plane is coterminous with the material plane and one is in an optimum location. Help cut down on the number of Air Genasi being born in Sharn.
sorreahdarkhart 04-28-07, 01:16 AM	Now wait a minute. Isn't Sharn built on a manifest zone for Syrania? Isn't that home only to angels and stuff? I thought Lamannia was the home for air, earth, and water elementals? Isn't that what gensai are? Like half-elementals? And how do you exactly explain them born in manifest zones? I mean, the only speculated manifest zone to Fernia is in the Mror Holds, and the dwarves are the majority there. So how do fire gensai exist there? I mean, I don't really consider dwarves as prime material for gensai-ness or whatever. I suppose that Zil elemental grafting would be the best guess, as it seems manifest zones are trickier to explain away. And I would definetely like to have my brain hurt less.
Edymnion 04-28-07, 01:28 AM	The easiest answer (other than flat out saying there are no gensai in Eberron) is to simply say that they are born while their assotiated plane is coterminus, and there is something sufficiently monumental for them to make sense (and that they do not breed true). Just being born in Sharn while Syrania is coterminus isn't going to be enough to cut it. Being born in Sharn while Syrania is coterminus and there is the worst windstorm in a century blowing at it's height, that just might be enough to do it. Basically, the easiest way is to say that there is no set pattern, no formula, just general trends. You can smoke every day of your life, but it doesn't mean you'll get cancer. You can eat McDonald's every day of your life, and not die of a heart attack. But you're more likely to. You can go to every length imaginable to try and make one, and it won't happen, while the one in a million accident works.
ieattrollsforbreakfast 04-28-07, 07:26 AM	Now wait a minute. Isn't Sharn built on a manifest zone for Syrania? Isn't that home only to angels and stuff? I thought Lamannia was the home for air, earth, and water elementals? Isn't that what gensai are? Like half-elementals? And how do you exactly explain them born in manifest zones? I mean, the only speculated manifest zone to Fernia is in the Mror Holds, and the dwarves are the majority there. So how do fire gensai exist there? I mean, I don't really consider dwarves as prime material for gensai-ness or whatever. I suppose that Zil elemental grafting would be the best guess, as it seems manifest zones are trickier to explain away. And I would definetely like to have my brain hurt less. Manifest zones are more common than you seem to believe (though still pretty rare). The zones are constantly in flux, small ones spring into existence and fade away all over Eberron all the time. The large, permanent manifest zones are much less common, and we have few examples of these. The Fernia zone in the Mror Holds isn't the only speculated zone, it's the only speculated permanent zone. For example, small Fernia manifest zones might spring up around a village under attack by arsonists, reaching a maximum strength when the whole village is burning. The zone will probably fade soon after the fires are out, but if the disaster was on a large enough scale, a permanent zone might be created. The point is that a manifest zone to any plane can pop up at any point on Eberron for any length of time, should the plot require it.
Cifer 04-28-07, 07:35 AM	I like the "children of grafted characters" variant, although one would have to develop a gnomish gensai.
Nived 04-28-07, 11:33 AM	I agree with Edy, there shouldn't be a predictable pattern. Maybe it's parents with elemental grafts getting it on in a manifest zone while the proper moon is full or something.... maybe not. The point here is that the player's character should be special. The one thing we all seem to be agreeing on is that Gensi on Eberron would be exceedingly rare, that there is no 'gensi' culture or people. Perhaps a handful of individuals, heck maybe the PC is the first and only one known at this point, and that's OK. PCs are supposed to be special.
ieattrollsforbreakfast 04-28-07, 04:04 PM	I think I'd go with genasi births being a known but ultimately unpredictable phenomenon. A few ranks in knowledge (the planes) or maybe (nature) should bestow the knowledge that sometimes, in areas of strong connection to elemental energies, most commonly under special circumstances, genasi might be born. Trouble is, the more conditions we impose, the more restrictive we are being. The '...maybe not' as Nived puts it, is an important factor. Special characters should throw spanners in the works. An earth genasi born while Lammania is remote is going to bring up all kinds of questions, but in a good way.
sorreahdarkhart 04-30-07, 03:46 AM	Good point. I suppose it's simply a very hard question to answer logically. With so many variable factors and different types of explanations, it seems it's possible to come up with an almost endless variety of ways of getting a PC gensai to exist in Eberron. I suppose the real challenge is trying to make sure that the explanation for their existence doesn't sound entirely ridiculous and detracts from the campaign setting itself. And I was thinking, since the tieflings have a narrow area where they are more likely encountered (Greywall in Droaam and Q'barra), should similar planetouched creatures have similar areas as well? Like for instance, our discussion about the gensai would lead to the conclusion that Zilargo has the most likely chance of having gensai. Or perhaps our aasimar race would be best localized in Sharn or the general area of Thrane (due to it's religious fervor, perhaps?). As the ECS says, "If it's in D & D, it's in Eberron", so there's some way everything co-exists here. ... Whoa. That's mindblowing.
Macrovore 04-30-07, 10:13 AM	but that relates to Non-setting specific material (IMO). Genasi are FR races (and maybe planescape, too). But this doesn't mean that they can't be in Eberron, just that they don't have to be. Don't let players use the "If it's in DnD, it's in Eberron" excuse to push you into giving them potentially game-breaking stuff, or even stuff that has fluff you don't think quite fits into eberron. /rant. sorry. just had to get that off my chest.
Kensan_Oni 04-30-07, 03:08 PM	I like the "children of grafted characters" variant, although one would have to develop a gnomish gensai. Easy! Use Mephlets from the Complete Planes. *POOF* Gnome Gensai!
Edymnion 04-30-07, 05:52 PM	Good point. I suppose it's simply a very hard question to answer logically.See, its not supposed to be logical. Crafting a successful game is an art, not a science. Just because you have elements X, Y, and Z in your game does not mean you will have a good game. Same thing goes here. Once you try to make something mechanical and logical, it has ceased to be special, and has become mearly annoying trying to reproduce. As the ECS says, "If it's in D & D, it's in Eberron", so there's some way everything co-exists here.And that is, easily, the single most misquoted line in the entire ECS, which is taken out of context every single time I have seen it used on these boards, including this use. Please read the ECS. What you are referring to is a teaser header. If you read the text below it, it specifically says that it refers *ONLY* to the DMG, PHB, and MM. It is not a carte blanch "everything and the kitchen sink" statement.
Macrovore 04-30-07, 06:25 PM	so, edy, would you say that my semi-rant was accurate?
ArcTan 04-30-07, 08:22 PM	Genasi have a chance of being born when concieved in a manifest zone when the relevant plane is coterminous with the material plane and one is in an optimum location. Help cut down on the number of Air Genasi being born in Sharn. No, Sharn is where you get Aasimar.
ArcTan 04-30-07, 08:40 PM	The easiest answer (other than flat out saying there are no gensai in Eberron) is to simply say that they are born while their assotiated plane is coterminus, and there is something sufficiently monumental for them to make sense (and that they do not breed true). Just being born in Sharn while Syrania is coterminus isn't going to be enough to cut it. Being born in Sharn while Syrania is coterminus and there is the worst windstorm in a century blowing at it's height, that just might be enough to do it. Basically, the easiest way is to say that there is no set pattern, no formula, just general trends. You can smoke every day of your life, but it doesn't mean you'll get cancer. You can eat McDonald's every day of your life, and not die of a heart attack. But you're more likely to. You can go to every length imaginable to try and make one, and it won't happen, while the one in a million accident works. Sharn is associated with the direction of Sky, which isn't the same as the element of Air. There are no Air Elementals or Djinn in Syrania, so there's no particular reason Air Genasi would come from Sharn. Syrania is a parallel of Celestia or Elysium in core D&D, not the Elemental Plane of Air. It's like how Khyber has no particular connection to Earth Elementals or Dao.
ArcTan 04-30-07, 08:42 PM	Good point. I suppose it's simply a very hard question to answer logically. With so many variable factors and different types of explanations, it seems it's possible to come up with an almost endless variety of ways of getting a PC gensai to exist in Eberron. I suppose the real challenge is trying to make sure that the explanation for their existence doesn't sound entirely ridiculous and detracts from the campaign setting itself. And I was thinking, since the tieflings have a narrow area where they are more likely encountered (Greywall in Droaam and Q'barra), should similar planetouched creatures have similar areas as well? Like for instance, our discussion about the gensai would lead to the conclusion that Zilargo has the most likely chance of having gensai. Or perhaps our aasimar race would be best localized in Sharn or the general area of Thrane (due to it's religious fervor, perhaps?). The Silver Flame is differentiated from the Sovereign Host in being more impersonal and this-worldly, so it seems they'd actually be less likely to have relationships with powerful Outsiders -- they're much more closely linked to Couatl (Native Outsiders) than Angels. But anything is possible, and there have been Flame-linked Outsiders mentioned before (Keith Baker's stock example for who answers commune calls is a Planetar of the Silver Flame). As the ECS says, "If it's in D & D, it's in Eberron", so there's some way everything co-exists here. The ECS says *there's a place for it* in Eberron, not that it automatically is in Eberron.
sorreahdarkhart 05-01-07, 01:59 AM	The ECS says *there's a place for it* in Eberron, not that it automatically is in Eberron. I see. I can understand now why it's an incredibly abused way of excusing such things. But for those who'd think otherwise, the "it there in Eberron" phrase is how I see it going into the setting itself. I wish it was a player's, but it is I, the DM, who sees it that way. As for logic, that's my fault too. I primarily see most things in a very logical sense, and in order for me to understand it, I have to make it so it sounds like a logical conclusion/solution or I won't understand it. It's fustrating having to think up a logical conclusion to something that can be well, be. I suppose that's why I have a hard time creating homebrewed things. So if we assumed that the gensai had a place in Eberron, this is the general consensus: 1) they'd be by-products of Fernia and Lamannia manifest zones 2) or they'd be offspring of Zilargo elemental graft experiments Thinking about it, if you want to keep gensai to a minimum, you could use the rules for when a changeling gets pregnant when in female form (that is to say, the child is 50% likely to be a gensai when two parents with elemental grafts are together). Good god, I hate being rules-oriented.
Nived 05-01-07, 02:53 AM	I can understand being rules oriented but you have to consider that this really doesn't matter. Unless your players are going to try to actively breed Gensi, it doesn't matter. Genetics is a confusing thing, even with the human genome mapped we can't account for all fo the quirks and strange genetic abnormalities that pop up. Throw in magic, and entirely different species of creatures that can somehow (read magic) pass on generic material and you have an incalculable number of variables. Lets look at it another way. Law and Chaos are tangible forces in the world of Eberron right? Well you clearly have an understanding of law and causality. A + B = C. However, in Eberron there is Chaos, true chaos. A + B = ڴ. In a world were Kythri exerts influance you honestly don't have to account for everything. This can truely be "One of those things," It doesn't make sense, and it doesn't have to, you can even make the fact it doesn't make sense a plot point... or you can let it rest comfortably in the background.
sorreahdarkhart 05-01-07, 03:55 AM	Okay, that sounds good. But can we come up with some sort of a generic answer? If I know my PCs well, and I certainly hope I do, the background of a race usually factors into their selection of them. Not to mention if I provide a list of races they should use (because one guy asked me if he could be a mind flayer [not kidding]), they're bound to ask questions. If anything, I'll say it's just one of those Kythri things.
Edymnion 05-01-07, 08:36 AM	But can we come up with some sort of a generic answer? If I know my PCs well, and I certainly hope I do, the background of a race usually factors into their selection of them. Not to mention if I provide a list of races they should use (because one guy asked me if he could be a mind flayer [not kidding]), they're bound to ask questions.I think the closest you're going to get to a generic answer is "There aren't enough of them to have any kind of unified culture, there is no predictable or repeatable pattern for how they are created, they just sort of show up from time to time and while many have theories on why, nobody really knows." Just like nobody really knows where Dragonmarks come from, or how they work. They just sort of are. Or where the souls for the Warforged come from. Or what caused the Mourning. Its *GOOD* to have unanswered questions and mysteries in the setting. Once you explain everything away, its just not as much fun anymore.
ArcTan 05-01-07, 03:38 PM	So if we assumed that the gensai had a place in Eberron, this is the general consensus: 1) they'd be by-products of Fernia and Lamannia manifest zones 2) or they'd be offspring of Zilargo elemental graft experiments Thinking about it, if you want to keep gensai to a minimum, you could use the rules for when a changeling gets pregnant when in female form (that is to say, the child is 50% likely to be a gensai when two parents with elemental grafts are together). Good god, I hate being rules-oriented. As people have pointed out, the main problem with the "Gnomish grafting" explanation is that the vast majority of recipients of grafts by the Power of Purity are likely to be Gnomes, and the current flavor and mechanics of Genasi has them clearly being *Human* Planetouched, like the Aasimar and Tieflings. Of course, you can explain that Genasi are a special creepy experiment by the Trust on Humans, theorizing that Humans -- who are by far the most common race to acquire planetouched traits, to crossbreed with Outsiders, to acquire Dragonmarks, and so on -- might "take" more easily to having elemental blood than Gnomes. By the rules we know this to be true, and so Genasi become a top-secret project of the Trust that would infuriate the governments of the Five Nations if they knew. Sounds like a good plot hook to me.
sorreahdarkhart 05-01-07, 07:48 PM	That does sound like a good idea. Is the Trust on Humans in the Five Nations sourcebook? Or where is it? I've only got the ECS and Sharn, so I wouldn't know where to start.
Shadow Chancellor 05-01-07, 08:16 PM	I may be wrong, but I believe that the Trust is mentioned in the ECS, in the section of Chpt. 7 on Zilargo.
Nived 05-02-07, 05:03 AM	Okay, that sounds good. But can we come up with some sort of a generic answer? If I know my PCs well, and I certainly hope I do, the background of a race usually factors into their selection of them. Not to mention if I provide a list of races they should use (because one guy asked me if he could be a mind flayer [not kidding]), they're bound to ask questions. If anything, I'll say it's just one of those Kythri things. "It's just one of those things" can be a valid race background. In Eberron we have no idea how Warforged live. House Cannith doesn't even know how the creation forges work. They know how to put them together, they know how to activate them, but they do not understand how they work. They don't know how they're able to create life. Similarly, imagine growing up with strange elemental based powers and not knowing why. Sure maybe your parents have grafts, but your siblings are all normal humans... or if you live in a manifest zone, all the other kids around your age are normal. You have seemingly nothing in common with the only other Gensi you know of. Its a mystery, one you perhaps will never solve. That in and of itself can make an interesting background. Maybe you have your theories, maybe other people have theories. Ask a Gatekeeper, a Greensinger, an arcanist from the Twelve, a House Jorasco healer, and a Kalashtar Psion and you will get five different answers, and each of them 'know' they're right.
sorreahdarkhart 05-02-07, 11:39 PM	That's true. And about the Trust, it's only mentioned as a power group. And in two sentences no less! Is there any more information about them? Anyways, you could also add the Trust to that list, Nived. Perhaps they know the truth, perhaps not. Having that as a focal point for an adventure would be awesome. I've always been a fan of being stealthy. Because Tenchu rocks.
Yadot 05-04-07, 07:06 PM	The Trust is detailed more in Kieth Baker's Dragonshards.