Post/Author/DateTime	Post
myusernameis 10-23-06, 10:34 PM	Well, there are two questions that bug me about Eberron. 1. Why does everyone say guns have no place in Eberron? The level of advancement has been commonly likened to steam punk meaning revolvers, lever action rifles, shotguns, etc. wouldn't be all that out of place. 2. Why do they insist on using medieval tactics if magic is supposed to be the realms "technology"? Seriously, a phalanx vs a fireball = dead phalanx. Wouldn't modern tactics make a bit more sense? (A secondary but ultimately related question)
ahiman 10-23-06, 11:38 PM	Well, there are two questions that bug me about Eberron. 1. Why does everyone say guns have no place in Eberron? The level of advancement has been commonly likened to steam punk meaning revolvers, lever action rifles, shotguns, etc. wouldn't be all that out of place. 2. Why do they insist on using medieval tactics if magic is supposed to be the realms "technology"? Seriously, a phalanx vs a fireball = dead phalanx. Wouldn't modern tactics make a bit more sense? (A secondary but ultimately related question) 1. Well it is not against any rules and while I personally would not allow it they could easily be put in with not too much problem. But in any event here are some arguments people might use against guns. A gun (1 shot gun) takes a long time to reload and has a limited effect (not much damage). If you have a level 5 fighter with guns (1 shot a round doing 1d12 damage) VS. A level 5 wizard who can cast fireball doing 5d6 damage. Now take into account each of these characters fighting 10 level 1 fighters who are each 10feet apart. The fighter can kill 1 a round at best while the wizard can do in 3 or 4 almost always. One last thing is that if you think about having 100 men with guns how much better is that then 15 wizards. Just remember that magic is everywhere and very easy to use and find so why waste your time finding a way to do 1d12 when you can just do what your dad did and do 5d6... 2. Who said they did? I guess they still have the same battle field communication issues but yeah I think they would try to spread out and use counter spell. Hope that helps.
myusernameis 10-24-06, 12:13 AM	I wasn't talking about muskets, I was talking more about guns you would expect to see in the later half of the 19th century, revolvers, lever action rifles, early autoloaders, etc... And all I've seen in the eberron books are medieval tactics, cavalry, seiges, etc...
DarkPawn 10-24-06, 12:27 AM	Well, there are two questions that bug me about Eberron. 1. Why does everyone say guns have no place in Eberron? The level of advancement has been commonly likened to steam punk meaning revolvers, lever action rifles, shotguns, etc. wouldn't be all that out of place. 2. Why do they insist on using medieval tactics if magic is supposed to be the realms "technology"? Seriously, a phalanx vs a fireball = dead phalanx. Wouldn't modern tactics make a bit more sense? (A secondary but ultimately related question) 1. The reason why guns have not been invented is quite honestly pretty easy to explain. Why on Eberron would you waste your time experimenting with gunpowder (lots of trial and error) when you can buy a wand or other similar magical item for far less? A gun is pretty silly when compared to a fireball. There is no reason to develop this technology in a world where someone can call an ice storm or meteor swarm down from the sky. This is what guns and cannons were used for. If you want to make a breach in a wall use "dig" or "disintegrate". If you want to take out a large area of soldiers drop a "fireball" or "cloud kill". 2. The reason they use medieval tactics is although a mage with fireball could cause horrific losses, mages that can cast fireball are not that common. In Eberron there are not as many adventurer class characters when you compare the world to the Forgotten Realms or Greyhawk. Adventurers are rare. Yes there may be a handful of wizards able to cast fireball but I doubt you'd risk them on the front ranks. If one shows up they will have a big impact on the battlefield but when dealing with thousands to tens of thousands of troops, they aren't going to really make that huge of an impact. My two coppers.
myusernameis 10-24-06, 01:26 AM	1. The reason why guns have not been invented is quite honestly pretty easy to explain. Why on Eberron would you waste your time experimenting with gunpowder (lots of trial and error) when you can buy a wand or other similar magical item for far less? A gun is pretty silly when compared to a fireball. There is no reason to develop this technology in a world where someone can call an ice storm or meteor swarm down from the sky. This is what guns and cannons were used for. If you want to make a breach in a wall use "dig" or "disintegrate". If you want to take out a large area of soldiers drop a "fireball" or "cloud kill".Wands are incredibly expensive, mages can only cast their spells so many times a day, you can manufacture hundreds of thousands of rounds for firearms relatively cheaply and thus give your soldiers the ability to do great amounts of damage from a long range without the need for hugely expensive magic items or the years of training needed to get a mage who can cast more than a few times a day.
GuyeNoir 10-24-06, 02:36 AM	DarkPawn: Don't take this the wrong way, but you just contradicted yourself. First you said powerful kill-lots-of-people magic is common enough to make firearms obsolete before they're invented, then you go on to say that those same powerful magics aren't common enough to make generals and strategists change their tactics. Which is it? While I hate to be "that guy" who has to have guns in his DnD game, myusernameis brings up a good point. According to all the Eberron fluff, high-level sorcerers and wizards (hell, even mid-level) aren't terribly common, which means the common people are constantly experimenting with new ways to kill each other (you think in a 100+ year war no significant technological advancements were made, other than the warforged?). I'd just like to point out why firearms became the weapon of choice for just about everyone. It wasn't because they were more powerful than swords or had a longer range than bows, it's because they're easy to use. Swords and bows take months, even years of training, and a certain amount of physical strength and finesse to wield properly. Guns, on the other hand, can be operated by just about anyone, just point and click. That's why they were called "the great equalizers", because anyone could pick one up and become a deadly force. Now, apply this to any DnD fantasy setting, especially Eberron, and the need for firearms is obvious. Highly destructive magic is purely the realm of practiced wizards, with years upon years of training and practice, powerful magic items like wands of fireball are far too expensive for the common man, and dangerous creatures wonder the country side preying on anyone less powerful than themselves. The people would practically beg for a cheap and easy to use weapon like a firearm, and kingdoms would pay top dollar (coin) to have them mass produced on a large scale to equip their armies. All you'd need to invent such a device is a few alchemists and blacksmiths with a little ingenuity and creativity. And if the lighting rail, airships, warforged, message stations, etc are any indication, there's absolutely no shortage of either trait in Eberron. And that's my 2 cp. EDIT: I'd just like to follow up by saying I don't actually think Eberron should have guns, or that they would make the setting better, I'm just saying it's not utterly rediculous, and helping myusernameis defend his position (playing devil's advocate at the very least).
DarkPawn 10-24-06, 03:03 AM	DarkPawn: Don't take this the wrong way, but you just contradicted yourself. First you said powerful kill-lots-of-people magic is common enough to make firearms obsolete before they're invented, then you go on to say that those same powerful magics aren't common enough to make generals and strategists change their tactics. Which is it? I don't consider it contradicting myself. You are viewing what I said in one manner, but let me explain further. 1) Why even dream of making an item that fires a metal slug when there are ways to throw fireballs or meteor swarms? I'm not saying it couldn't be useful but why even bother? The firearm was created to make an item that could punch through armor from a distance. Much like the crossbow. What reason do you need to do this with magic? Magically enchanted arrows and spells can do the same thing. Hence why I believe guns were never even thought of. 2) Yes magical items and wizards are not common. However, it isn't that expensive to hire the services of a wizard if you are leading an army. Tactically a wizard would be handy and could help sway a small scale battle or an evenly matched battle. However, in general...when dealing with large scale battles they would not be that effective. A fireball would kill about 20 people. That is useful, it might sway morale, but in the end 20 people out of 10,000 is irrelevant on the grand scheme of things. P.S. I honestly can't see flintlock, blackpowder firearms being invented or seriously used. Water would basically make them ineffective. Any wizard or cleric can probably conjure up water to remove the threat of flintlocks. Bows however can be fired while wet, (albeit) wet bowstrings can cause issues. Remember too the flintlock would often backfire or misfire. The damage would be quite ineffective and probably nulified against magical enchantments or special metals like adamantine. The rate of fire was also be horrorific. Lets also keep in mind that they were extremely bulky and not light weight.
ahiman 10-24-06, 03:23 AM	Ok to your first comment I would say that to get to the better guns you have to go threw the bad ones. So unless a musket is better then a fireball or a scorching ray then you would never get to the revolvers and what not’s. But I do see your point; the only thing is science is incremental with advancements happening over time until something (in this case a gun) gets to be good. Magic is not like this in eberron (as we learned from schemas and other things) magic that is learned has always been there so you just need one book to get a fireball as opposed to 400-500 years to get a good gun. The second thing is that the art is highly limited so in the few cases we have there is some medieval tactics being used. However you do underestimate how important communication is. If people spread out then you would have to use more controls on them and it just is not that easy to have 1 bard casting message per 10 men (so they can talk to HQ). But with larger groupings you can just tell them with some drums or whatever to move in a direction or dig in or even cast magic missile at the darkness. But the point is that if you want to just have that not happen. All you do (if you are the DM) is say "no, it was never like that... Ever" Just my thoughts.
ArcTan 10-24-06, 04:18 AM	Well, there are two questions that bug me about Eberron. 1. Why does everyone say guns have no place in Eberron? The level of advancement has been commonly likened to steam punk meaning revolvers, lever action rifles, shotguns, etc. wouldn't be all that out of place. Steampunk usually means, well, the Age of Steam (Victorian era, 19th century, American Civil War, you know) while Eberron's feel has always been far more Renaissance to me. It's not hard and fast -- the trains feel Age of Steam, but the swords and armor and siege engines still feel quite High Middle Ages -- but there you go. If we actually *had* things like steam engines, mass-production factories, the equivalent of electrification in homes, and that kind of thing, I might say guns felt more in place. But we don't. I don't like the "punk" words all that much, but Eberron is "magepunk" more than it is "steampunk" -- it's clearly fantasy magic that's driving Eberron's economy, not real-world industrial technology, even at an early Industrial Revolution level. Another term might be, I dunno, "castlepunk" -- what we're punking up is clearly something between the High Middle Ages and the Renaissance, making it more "modern" through the introduction of *purely fantastic* ideas -- Conductor Stones for railroads, etc. -- but *not* the introduction of any real-word modernizing technological advances (gunpowder, mechanized production, stainless steel, etc.) It's much like how steampunk is only steampunk, by definition, if weird unlikely fantastic things make the world more "modern" with robots and computers and lasers and things but we steadfastly refuse to allow the invention of an electric power grid or electronics, because if we do it's not steampunk anymore. Eberron is, well, "D&D-punk" -- the magical Middle Ages it's building from is the core D&D world, and even though it punks it up in some respects it's still the core D&D world without electricity, automobiles or firearms. 2. Why do they insist on using medieval tactics if magic is supposed to be the realms "technology"? Seriously, a phalanx vs a fireball = dead phalanx. Wouldn't modern tactics make a bit more sense? (A secondary but ultimately related question) Because mages, at least in my view, should still be quite rare -- no army can rely on having a mage right where they need a mage. The mage is *not* the equivalent of real-life artillery, because they cannot be mass-produced; they are in highly limited numbers. That said, I don't think they do use medieval tactics. They use medieval *technology*, because they have to -- their magitechnology has not advanced to the point of mass-producing firearm-like magic weapons -- crucially, it has not advanced to the point of mass-producing *anything at all* and mages must still hand-make magic items, slowly and arduously, many of which can only ever be used by other mages. But I do see Eberron units taking mage-tactics into account when fighting magic-using forces, and being likely to do things like engage in squad-based movement when appropriate, dive and scatter when artillery mages approach, etc. (Phalanxes are not medieval tactics at all, by the way, if by medieval you mean the usual usage of the European Middle Ages. They are very strongly associated with the Hellenistic Age and the Macedonians, and the Roman legions had already made them obsolete for a long time by the time the Middle Ages rolled around, and the crucial technological advancement of the Middle Ages -- the invention of the stirrup and the creation of heavy cavalry. You still see a similar idea crop up from time to time, but the idea fails as soon as you can have heavily armored knights charging full-on against them.)
ArcTan 10-24-06, 04:24 AM	I wasn't talking about muskets, I was talking more about guns you would expect to see in the later half of the 19th century, revolvers, lever action rifles, early autoloaders, etc... And all I've seen in the eberron books are medieval tactics, cavalry, seiges, etc... Read up on medieval military history a little more, please, before you argue about it. You might also want to read up on Eberron a bit more -- there isn't much of *anything* in the Eberron texts that counts as a detailed description of military tactics, and you really do seem to be reading a lot into things like the existence of, say, plate mail -- something that *only* became obsolete because of the very specific existence of firearms. Cavalry are not a strictly medieval thing. Nor are sieges. Nor is it clear why magic makes either one utterly obsolete. (The reason cavalry are obsolete in the modern day is that we have armies with tanks, jeeps, and lots of other gas-powered vehicles, and every soldier having an assault rifle. No Eberron army, using the magic that's described as existing in Eberron, could duplicate such a thing with the levels of magic they're supposed to have.) If every soldier could be outfitted with wands of magic missile relatively cheaply, Teleport were common enough to be used by whole units of soldiers on a regular basis, and so on, you might have a point. Of course, if that were the case, firearms really would be utterly, completely, totally unnecessary. ...Although, you know, we've trod this ground enough times that I'd really rather make flavor arguments than realism arguments. Flavorwise, guns are a dividing line between castlepunk and steampunk, just like an electric power grid is the dividing line between steampunk and "modern-day" settings.
goblin_pride 10-24-06, 07:26 AM	I was wondering how long it would be until I saw an argument that guns should or shouldn't be in Eberron. The game is set up as medieval fantasy, guns aren't the standard. If you want to use guns in your game, go right ahead. No one is stopping you. Unless of course you're a player looking for an argument to use against a DM who said, "no guns", then I guess someone is stopping you. But the argument that siege tactics would be taken out by one mage with a fireball is silly. Incendiary ammunition existed in the real world long before the gun was developed, some of it exploded rather nicely when it struck solid objects (walls, ground, some unlucky bugger standing in the way). By the medieval period, fixed formations like the phalanx were pretty much gone versus the fortification race that a siege basically was. Personally, I don't like guns in my D&D, but I've been known to allow the Gnomes to use them sometimes and I love the idea of them wheeling up a bombard to "shake the walls" of an enemy fortress and then making players roll saves when the thing explodes and kills pretty much everything around it. In the end, it all comes down to one simple rule, "if you don't like something, change it"
Just another user 10-24-06, 09:08 AM	1. The reason why guns have not been invented is quite honestly pretty easy to explain. Why on Eberron would you waste your time experimenting with gunpowder (lots of trial and error) when you can buy a wand or other similar magical item for far less? A gun is pretty silly when compared to a fireball. There is no reason to develop this technology in a world where someone can call an ice storm or meteor swarm down from the sky. This is what guns and cannons were used for. If you want to make a breach in a wall use "dig" or "disintegrate". If you want to take out a large area of soldiers drop a "fireball" or "cloud kill". 2. The reason they use medieval tactics is although a mage with fireball could cause horrific losses, mages that can cast fireball are not that common. In Eberron there are not as many adventurer class characters when you compare the world to the Forgotten Realms or Greyhawk. Adventurers are rare. Yes there may be a handful of wizards able to cast fireball but I doubt you'd risk them on the front ranks. If one shows up they will have a big impact on the battlefield but when dealing with thousands to tens of thousands of troops, they aren't going to really make that huge of an impact. My two coppers. Do you realize that your arguments practically nullify each other? You are saying that there is no need of gunpowder because magic is so common and then you say that they use medieval tactics because magic is so rare. Both the argument can't be true at the same time. Personally I think there are good arguments both to the pro and against use of gunpowder in Eberron, On one hand a wand of fireball does more damage and is more pratical than any gunpowder weapon you can think of, but on the other hand they are are tremendously expensive,a wand of fireball's cost is several thousands of gold pieces can be used only by "specialists" (wizards, sorcerers and high level characters with UMD) that are few, far between and usually better used in other roles, like creating magic item or casting divinations (magewrights are a little more common but the fact that eternal wands have limited uses/day more than make up for it Sure a 5th level fighter could laugh off a single musket or rifle, but with the price of a single wand of fireball you could arm a dozen of less powerful but more common 1st-2nd level warriors or even fighters that would be as lethal as a fireball and more to their fellows low level warriors of the opposite army and would give some pause even to that 5th level fighter of above (plus they would shot a lot more than just 50 times, just to say another advantage over wands. I don't think gunpowder weapons would be ground breaking in eberron but certainly they would be an interesting option.
DarkPawn 10-24-06, 04:21 PM	Do you realize that your arguments practically nullify each other? You are saying that there is no need of gunpowder because magic is so common and then you say that they use medieval tactics because magic is so rare. Both the argument can't be true at the same time. If you look at my second post after the one you quoted, you will see how I justify my statement. Again I don't believe my arguments nullify each other. The fact that magic exists is the main key. I think I summarized how that would effect the creation of firearms. There is really no reason my statements contradict each other because they are completely unrelated subjects. One being why firearms were not created and the other why tactics are medieval-like. Were there firearms in medieval times? No, so what does one subject have anything to do with the other?
Neofish 10-24-06, 05:06 PM	[QUOTE]Well, there are two questions that bug me about Eberron. 1. Why does everyone say guns have no place in Eberron? The level of advancement has been commonly likened to steam punk meaning revolvers, lever action rifles, shotguns, etc. wouldn't be all that out of place. What level of advancement are you speaking of? Magic lamps and a Magic train? Where does binding elementals into crystals equat to blackpowdered weaponry? Eberron isn't Earth, the guy who accidently stumbled upon the right combination and invented blackpowder doesn't exist in Eberron, and if he did, what's to say he didn't realize that was a worthless endeavour compaired to being able to conjour up a ball of flame with a few hand gestures and some magic jibberish. 2. Why do they insist on using medieval tactics if magic is supposed to be the realms "technology"? Seriously, a phalanx vs a fireball = dead phalanx. Wouldn't modern tactics make a bit more sense? (A secondary but ultimately related question) First off, go read up on history a little bit. The phalanx didn't come from the medieval era. Second, where are you reading up on advanced Eberron battle tactica? Please, point it out to me where it states that a nation used the phalanx tactic during the last war? Because I can't even find what weapons each nation peffered to use. It's cool though, Eberron bugs you because you don't have guns, it's all good. Come up with a good reason why they should have guns and how they were created and why they'd still be used when a single fireball or a toss of alchemists fire can destroy an entire months worth of blackpowder in an instant in a supply train or powder store and i'll totally go along with it. Magic Technology /= Real World Technology. I suggest you check out Iron Kingdom, its a great setting and has all the stuff your looking for. Low-magic, high steampunk. One last thing, dude, it's your game, if you want steam golems and T.V. and revolvers in Eberron, do it, no one is stopping you for doing so.
Hellcow 10-24-06, 07:00 PM	According to all the Eberron fluff, high-level sorcerers and wizards (hell, even mid-level) aren't terribly common... I'm not going to get into this argument in any great detail, but I will point out that the lack of high-level wizards or sorcerers doesn't keep magic off the battlefield. PC classes are uncommon, but that's where you get the magewright, along with innovations like eternal wands (which can be used by any arcane caster, including magewrights). Yes, eternal wands are expensive, but so are, say, missiles... and eternal wands can be used over and over and over again. (you think in a 100+ year war no significant technological advancements were made, other than the warforged?). I think MANY significant advances were made. I've already mentioned eternal wands. Another important innovation that has already been mentioned is the airship. Beyond that, IMO (something actually echoed in the Dragonmarked sourcebook) a key thing is that as magic in Eberron is a form of science, just because something can be conceived doesn't mean it can be created... in other words, the object creation guidelines at the end of the DMG are just that, guidelines. It's up to the DM to decide whether a particular magic item can or has been created. In other words, any number of magic items that are simply described in the DMG may in fact be creations of the Last War. Ditto for spells. It's possible that the Last War was the first time any human wizard ever cast the cloudkill spell, and that this horrid spell was developed by Aundair to counter the numerical advantage of its foes. The elves may have developed their own version of cloudkill long ago, but the human version is only decades old. Essentially, once you start to think of spells and magic items as technology, any number of them may be recent developments, or you might have disparity between civilizations... Aundair has cloudkill, and at the moment no Brelish mage knows this spell. Your job? Break into Arcanix and steal it! In any case, the original 1-page description of Eberron specifically noted that the world was NOT a steampunk world. In the steampunk genre, magic and technology develop side by side, and often are at odds with one another. From the start, the point of Eberron was to explore a world in which the magical sciences have taken the place of steam and gunpowder, where people haven't pursued such things because they are pursuing the things that they understand. Personally, if you WANT to add guns to Eberron, be my guest. It's not like it hopelessly destroys the world. But it's not something you're going to see in official Eberron material, because it's just not part of the original vision of the world. As others have said, if you want steam and fantasy, Iron Kingdoms does that very well. Why do they insist on using medieval tactics if magic is supposed to be the realms "technology"? Seriously, a phalanx vs a fireball = dead phalanx. Wouldn't modern tactics make a bit more sense? Certainly. The Redcloak Batalleon (from the Sharn sourcebook) and the Valenar warbands are really modeled more for commando operations... and note that the Redcloaks have a dedicated counterspeller as part of their unit. You'll need to know your enemy and his capabilities, and use the tactics best suited to the situation. Personally, I don't think there's been a serious look at the battlefield tactics of modern Khorvaire... yet. Sounds like the kind of thing one would put in a sourcebook about the Last War. Hmm... The key point here is that there's nothing wrong with deciding that in your Eberron, there is gunpowder and steam power, and taking things from there. But those changes will have rippling effects that will spread out across the setting. Eberron is NOT simply "the 1920s, but with magic instead of technology." There are many technological innovations that have no analogue in Eberron, and many magical tools that didn't exist. Likewise, many of the important magical innovations are innately tied to the abilities of the Dragonmarked... creating a monopoly that would be more difficult to maintain with tools that anyone could use (in fact, one could easily argue that the Dragonmarked houses might actively seek to supress such research!). So do what you want - just don't expect to see a Steampower of Eberron sourcebook any time soon!
Just another user 10-24-06, 07:19 PM	If you look at my second post after the one you quoted, you will see how I justify my statement. Again I don't believe my arguments nullify each other. Yeah, sorry, I have this bad habit to answer a post before I read all the thread. so let me answer your othe message here:) I don't consider it contradicting myself. You are viewing what I said in one manner, but let me explain further. 1) Why even dream of making an item that fires a metal slug when there are ways to throw fireballs or meteor swarms? I'm not saying it couldn't be useful but why even bother? As I've already mentioned item that shoot fireballs and meteor strike are incredibly expensive and can be used only by few specialists. A musket is much less expensive and can be used by everyone. Those are two excellent reasons why someone could come up with them. The firearm was created to make an item that could punch through armor from a distance. Much like the crossbow. What reason do you need to do this with magic? Magically enchanted arrows and spells can do the same thing. Hence why I believe guns were never even thought of. Look at the price of magic arrows. and consider that you again need a specialist to create them, but any Expert with the right craft skill can create muskets and ammunition for a fraction of the price. and nothing stop you from enchant them, but that is another story. 2) Yes magical items and wizards are not common. However, it isn't that expensive to hire the services of a wizard if you are leading an army. Tactically a wizard would be handy and could help sway a small scale battle or an evenly matched battle. Maybe it is just me but using a wizard to go around throwing fireballs is a waste, there are many better things that he can be used for, from casting divinations to creating magic items or even casting magic items on other troops like invisibility on the scouts, or even just neutralize the enemy wizards, by counterspell, disple magic or a magic missile in the face, and even if it weren't better things to do he would be too precious to risk him sending him on the battlefield. And BTW that is why they keep using medieval tactics in Eberron. P.S. I honestly can't see flintlock, blackpowder firearms being invented or seriously used. Water would basically make them ineffective. Any wizard or cleric can probably conjure up water to remove the threat of flintlocks. Bows however can be fired while wet, (albeit) wet bowstrings can cause issues. Remember too the flintlock would often backfire or misfire. The damage would be quite ineffective and probably nulified against magical enchantments or special metals like adamantine. The rate of fire was also be horrorific. Lets also keep in mind that they were extremely bulky and not light weight. Those are home rules, right? I don't remember these rules from the DMG section on gunpowder weapons. FWIW, if I'd ever choose to introduice gunpowders weapons in Eberron I'd make them a kobold invention, copied and commercialized by the Zilargo's gnomes, It is another of their secrets, even if it is not so well protected like the elemental binding. Like I've said it is nothing world-shaking, many military see it just as another oddity, but it can be an interesting option if you want to use it.
GuyeNoir 10-24-06, 07:34 PM	I think MANY significant advances were made. I've already mentioned eternal wands. Another important innovation that has already been mentioned is the airship. Beyond that, IMO (something actually echoed in the Dragonmarked sourcebook) a key thing is that as magic in Eberron is a form of science, just because something can be conceived doesn't mean it can be created... in other words, the object creation guidelines at the end of the DMG are just that, guidelines. It's up to the DM to decide whether a particular magic item can or has been created. In other words, any number of magic items that are simply described in the DMG may in fact be creations of the Last War. Ditto for spells. It's possible that the Last War was the first time any human wizard ever cast the cloudkill spell, and that this horrid spell was developed by Aundair to counter the numerical advantage of its foes. The elves may have developed their own version of cloudkill long ago, but the human version is only decades old. Essentially, once you start to think of spells and magic items as technology, any number of them may be recent developments, or you might have disparity between civilizations... Aundair has cloudkill, and at the moment no Brelish mage knows this spell. Your job? Break into Arcanix and steal it! In any case, the original 1-page description of Eberron specifically noted that the world was NOT a steampunk world. In the steampunk genre, magic and technology develop side by side, and often are at odds with one another. From the start, the point of Eberron was to explore a world in which the magical sciences have taken the place of steam and gunpowder, where people haven't pursued such things because they are pursuing the things that they understand. Personally, if you WANT to add guns to Eberron, be my guest. It's not like it hopelessly destroys the world. But it's not something you're going to see in official Eberron material, because it's just not part of the original vision of the world. As others have said, if you want steam and fantasy, Iron Kingdoms does that very well. All very good points. When push comes to shove, I agree that guns shouldn't be in Eberron at all (no matter how cool I think they are). One because it messes with the overall feel of the setting. But also because of what you said about the people of Eberron using magic instead of technology, not along with it. That's what attracted me to the setting in the first place: It's the first high-magic setting I've seen whose inhabitants thought "hey, why don't we use this magic to make life easier?" and went on develop magical equivilents of 1800's Jules Vernian style technologies: Lighting rails instead of steam locomotives, elemental airships instead of zepplins, sending stones instead of telegraphs, etc.
DarkPawn 10-24-06, 11:08 PM	Those are home rules, right? I don't remember these rules from the DMG section on gunpowder weapons. Actually I was stating the downfalls of real life black powder firearms. I wasn't talking about any rules in AD&D sourcebooks. I'm sorry if it got confusing. I did relate real life issues to AD&D situations. My bad and I hope I'm not coming off as aggravated or mean. I enjoy debates and love these forums and the members. Much better then another section under something like AD&D forums or something.
myusernameis 10-24-06, 11:56 PM	I'm no expert on medieval tactics, don't get on my case about that. However, a decent wizard (able to do something useful more than once a day) takes years to train, it takes months to train someone to use a firearm, if that. That alone would give reason for firearms to be invented, once that is set in motion the course to inventing more advanced firearms isn't that far off. I'm not saying others should incorporate them in their game, I'm just curious why it's such a big issue that people deem it worthy to put it in their sig that firearms have no place in Eberron. I myself will be incorporating firearms, for a few reasons: I know firearms fairly well, the tactics involving their use are more familiar to me, I feel they're a good addition to Eberron, and I just plain like guns. By the way, I was surprised with how reasonable your response was Mister Baker. I honestly expected you to be rather full of yourself. Looks like I was wrong.
DarkPawn 10-24-06, 11:59 PM	I myself will be incorporating firearms, for a few reasons: I know firearms fairly well, the tactics involving their use are more familiar to me, I feel they're a good addition to Eberron, and I just plain like guns. I don't think anyone is going to give you grief about your choice. It is your campaign and you're more then free to do whatever you want with it. :)
Just another user 10-25-06, 04:52 AM	Actually I was stating the downfalls of real life black powder firearms. I wasn't talking about any rules in AD&D sourcebooks. I'm sorry if it got confusing. I did relate real life issues to AD&D situations. My bad and I hope I'm not coming off as aggravated or mean. I enjoy debates and love these forums and the members. Much better then another section under something like AD&D forums or something. What have real life ever had to do with D&d? :) And no need to use AD&D sourcebooks. DMG 3.5 pag 144-145. rules for various gunpowder weapons, those are the rules that I use to gause how pratical and convenient would be those weapons in Eberron or any other settings even just to have a common ground to works on..
ArcTan 10-25-06, 07:28 AM	What have real life ever had to do with D&d? :) It does whenever someone starts spouting off about how Eberron *should* have firearms even if it's against the ethos of the setting, just because firearms would be "realistic". And no need to use AD&D sourcebooks. DMG 3.5 pag 144-145. rules for various gunpowder weapons, those are the rules that I use to gause how pratical and convenient would be those weapons in Eberron or any other settings even just to have a common ground to works on.. That section also has rules for modern semiautomatic and automatic firearms, not to mention stuff like a laser gun and flamethrower. It's clearly for DMs who want to throw something wacky at their party, not a guideline for what "should" exist in any D&D setting.
Just another user 10-25-06, 08:02 AM	It does whenever someone starts spouting off about how Eberron *should* have firearms even if it's against the ethos of the setting, just because firearms would be "realistic". That section also has rules for modern semiautomatic and automatic firearms, not to mention stuff like a laser gun and flamethrower. It's clearly for DMs who want to throw something wacky at their party, not a guideline for what "should" exist in any D&D setting. Arctan, I'm not saying that Guns MUST be in Eberron, I'm saying that if someone want to have them in it there are reasons for them to be there and to be used, and I'm saying that to value if is worth to use gun I apply the DMG rules, that's it, If you don't like Eberron With Guns for flavour reasons I would not try to change your mind, but if someone say that guns wouldn't have reasons to be used in eberron then I'd have to disagree.
Neofish 10-25-06, 09:27 AM	I'm no expert on medieval tactics, don't get on my case about that. However, a decent wizard (able to do something useful more than once a day) takes years to train, it takes months to train someone to use a firearm, if that. That alone would give reason for firearms to be invented, once that is set in motion the course to inventing more advanced firearms isn't that far off. I'm not saying others should incorporate them in their game, I'm just curious why it's such a big issue that people deem it worthy to put it in their sig that firearms have no place in Eberron. I myself will be incorporating firearms, for a few reasons: I know firearms fairly well, the tactics involving their use are more familiar to me, I feel they're a good addition to Eberron, and I just plain like guns. Sigh... Just think, if you replaced every instance where you mentioned firearms with the word crossbow you'd be set. The reason why it's a big issue it becasue its a huge misconception about Eberron. Everyone thinks that because the setting has high and pratical magic, that someone it also must include robots and guns and steampower. This simply isn't so. That alone would give reason for firearms to be invented You are aware that the creation of blackpowder was a fluke right? You are aware after its creation is wasn't immeadiately used as a manufractured weapon right? once that is set in motion the course to inventing more advanced firearms isn't that far off. Your right, it only took another, what? 400 hundread years from the intial conception of the matchlock (which took 40-50ish years to develope in the first place) to the to the percussion cap in 1805... And then, it takes another, what? 60 years for the first self-contained, breach loaded bullets to hit the scene, so yeah, it's not that far off... Your only looking at about 500 years worth the time it takes to go from slow loading, dangerious matchlocks, to rapid reloading, waterproof shell using revolvers and rifles. That's alot, a-lot of time to develope a weapon when one could of spent a fraction fo the time (years, like you siad) to learn how to produce fire from nothing. But I digress, Like I stated before, it's your game dude, you can do as you wish, I persoanlly like western/steampunk aswell, but I play iron kingdoms when I get the itch to play a gun heavy setting (plus, warcasters and warjacks rock out). But I also play Eberron because its a far more enriched world, with so much plot and intrigue and actually has a reasonable take on a magic infused world and I feel that firearms aren't necessary or even fit into the setting at all.
Neofish 10-25-06, 09:31 AM	but if someone say that guns wouldn't have reasons to be used in eberron then I'd have to disagree. Guns don't have a reason to be used in Eberron, give me one instance where a crossbow (or Bow) wans't a quicker, safer weapon to use and manufacture and i'll agree that firearms may (on the obscure chance that someone invented blackpowder and then immeadiately got the idea to shoot it through a small metal tube) be reasonable in Eberron.
Kreistor1 10-25-06, 11:11 AM	To answer the OP: Your observations concerning available weaponry are valid, and you aren't the first to make them. There are people that like the idea of guns and cannon (or at least, gun-like weapons, elemental powered in my case). In fact, the Nations would have to develop such weapons, for naval warfare at the very least. Arming 1700's sized sailing vessels with flaming catapults is like shooting crassbows at a barn. It isn't going to do anything or scare anyone. That means pirates rule the waves, since there are no weapons in anyone's arsenal to stop them. The response to need is invention, so a cannon had to be desperately needed by the Nations not just when the war began, but in the paranoid pre-war era when a sea-borne invasion from Sarlona was expected. As for tactics, I don't really see anywhere that tactics were written down, so you are welcome to use whatever tactics you see fit.
Just another user 10-25-06, 05:32 PM	Guns don't have a reason to be used in Eberron, give me one instance where a crossbow (or Bow) wans't a quicker, safer weapon to use and manufacture and i'll agree that firearms may (on the obscure chance that someone invented blackpowder and then immeadiately got the idea to shoot it through a small metal tube) be reasonable in Eberron. Safer is not a concern, there are no rules that make musket more dangerous than crossbow. Quicker, yes, light crossbow are quicker, but musket do more damage, have a greater multiplier and a more than double range increment than more that make up for it, for adventurers they are, of course, useless (expecially because there are no feat that take advantage of them, but even crossbow became soon useless for them, but for low level soldier to be used against other low level soldiers, gunpowder weapons are deadly.
willywally 10-26-06, 01:09 AM	a couple of thoughts A. does eberron even have the components to make gun powder? in what quantities? sure potasium nitrate, charcoal and sulfer prolly all exist but where, who controls it etc. B.eberron doesn't have our science. it has a magical science. look up some of the old belifs people had about science, now imagine that some of it was real. you simply don't have the same natural laws and you don't have the same line of science. natural law is not set in stone, observed events react differently in different areas. hell the plane that is coterminus could mess up your repeatable experiment. how are you to prove things in that enviroment. and then there are illusions. ugh, it's a scientists worst nightmare. C. science made large leaps on the minds of a few geniuses. einstien, newton, waston and crick, darwin, etc. in eberron the people who are that type of intellect don't do science, they do magic. how far would we be behind without our geniuses? sure others tinker and putz but that's very slow progress. D. education in eberron, my understanding is that most education would either be in schools taught by mages(magic), schools run by churches(divine magic) or schools taught by the aristocrats(poltics, government and economics) the hard sciences just don't have a way of spreading. maybe you have a few ecentrics who can create gunpowder but without sharing thoses ideas they don't make it mainstream. the biggest thing about the renaissance wasn't the learning, it was the willingness and desire to SHARE the information. E.you like firearms, use 'em. they don't do too much more than any other weapon. F. tactics, i've never seen anything on the large scale fantasy military tactics, but i imagine that in large armies wizards don't decide the day very often. between the small amount of wizards in general and wizards of power in specific, the unfitness for a battle field that many wizards would posses( could your average small town wizard concentrate through a battle? unlike your characters he is not used to the noise, smoke, riding and casting and of course the damage checks) add in that there are relatively few great choices that keep a caster a good distance away and do enough damage to risk the mage for 3rd level or under (assuming you average mage in eberron isn't much more than 5/6 level) so you might have a few mages who all generally have the same spells memorized. sounds like counterspelling and dispelling would take up most of the magic with only the few stray spells affecting things. the things that would really change tactics is- the buffing spells, these are easy to cast before hand and some can affect large groups. cheap and effective. And the healing. with potions/ clerics the downed soldier may only be out for a moment. add in that the healing comes to you rather than taking the wounded to the rear and you have 1. a high death rate, wounds can be healed, death is much harder. 2. lots of attacks against priests/medics. letting them drag off their wounded when it takes them months to heal is one thing, letting them heal them so they can reenforce the enemy right now is a whole other. of course this is after the battle is joined. before then magic could do alot. getting your enemy to follow fake troops, charming enemies for information, scrying details and weaknesses. shaping the terrain to your advantage, slipping small strike forces through, hiding your reserves for a suprise attack etc. this is where the wizards could really shine. G.magic items, it seems that given the high cost of items and the fact that it would be easy to lose them to an enemy, most items would be in the potion/scroll of cure light wounds range. with the 10,900gp for an eteral wand of fireball. which can only used maybe twice in a battle (most battles wouldn't last more than a day) you could hire 1800 mercenaries for a whole month using the DMG guideline for hirelings.
wendigovegan 10-26-06, 12:24 PM	Well, there are two questions that bug me about Eberron. 1. Why does everyone say guns have no place in Eberron? The level of advancement has been commonly likened to steam punk meaning revolvers, lever action rifles, shotguns, etc. wouldn't be all that out of place. 2. Why do they insist on using medieval tactics if magic is supposed to be the realms "technology"? Seriously, a phalanx vs a fireball = dead phalanx. Wouldn't modern tactics make a bit more sense? (A secondary but ultimately related question) 1. Because many people who play DnD like to keep the game as Swords&Sorcery flavored as possible. That said there is no reason you couldn't use firearms in the games. For my games I came up with an Alchemical Gun developed by House Cannith. The weapons were too expensive to bother with full production during the war but occasionally find their way into the hands of Artificers and Adventurers. I would stongly suggest if you use guns you come up with a reason to keep them out of the hands of the general populace. This lets you avoid a whole host of problems with continuity while letting your PCs have their "boom sticks". I may post my gun idea later if I feel like getting flamed. 2. Mostly I'd go with what KB posted earlier. I envision the Last War as a sort of WWI experience for Khorvaire. The war used "medieval tactics" at the beginning. Small armies of brave knights riding forth in shining plate armor on their horses to do battle for the glory of their nation. The ideal of glorious warfare faded pretty damn quick in the face of improvements that had occurred in magic since the last big war. (remember Khorvaire was largely at peace for centuries before the war) The brave knights were all wiped out in the first few months and combat became a nightmare for soldiers who had to learn to cope with the horrors of a modern magical battlefield. The tactics were slowly forced to change from large group formations to smaller squad level tactics with units shielding their spell casters long enough to exploit a break in the enemys lines. Imagine if you will a line of Karn infantry dug into trenches with long spears and crossbows defended by flame cannons (bound fire elementals) and burried devices which create and area Heat Mettle effect to anyone who passes over it. Needless to say the Last War was not a pretty sight. I also use this to explain why there are no high level heros in Eberron. There used to be back in the "old days" but the Last War killed them all off. In this way Eberron becomes a world that has had its notions of romance and glory shattered and desperately needs new heros to inspire people (this is where the PCs come in).
Azdraugnor 10-26-06, 03:11 PM	In fact, the Nations would have to develop such weapons, for naval warfare at the very least. Arming 1700's sized sailing vessels with flaming catapults is like shooting crassbows at a barn. It isn't going to do anything or scare anyone. That means pirates rule the waves, since there are no weapons in anyone's arsenal to stop them. The response to need is invention, so a cannon had to be desperately needed by the Nations not just when the war began, but in the paranoid pre-war era when a sea-borne invasion from Sarlona was expected. This is actually an interesting topic, if a small digression from the thread. What kind of weapons would ships use in Eberron? Our first instincts would be to create magical versions of our own weapons - fire elemental cannons, water elemental-driven torpedoes, etc. But there could be a lot of alternative ways - for instance, a bound air elemental could be used to create wind to blow the enemy ship away (lacking modern long-range weapons, this would virtually neutralize the threat), or water elementals to create whirlpools or flood a ship's interior. Dropping an Immovable Rod in the path of an enemy ship would punch a nice hole in its keel. Animate Objects on an opponent's rigging and boarding planks would make their lives difficult, and one of Warp Wood's possible effects is "a boat or ship springs a leak". Summoning monsters onto your opponent's decks could be effective as well - a single Small fire elemental in a ship's hold would be disastrous.
DarkPawn 10-26-06, 03:26 PM	This is actually an interesting topic, if a small digression from the thread. What kind of weapons would ships use in Eberron? Our first instincts would be to create magical versions of our own weapons - fire elemental cannons, water elemental-driven torpedoes, etc. But there could be a lot of alternative ways - for instance, a bound air elemental could be used to create wind to blow the enemy ship away (lacking modern long-range weapons, this would virtually neutralize the threat), or water elementals to create whirlpools or flood a ship's interior. Dropping an Immovable Rod in the path of an enemy ship would punch a nice hole in its keel. Animate Objects on an opponent's rigging and boarding planks would make their lives difficult, and one of Warp Wood's possible effects is "a boat or ship springs a leak". Summoning monsters onto your opponent's decks could be effective as well - a single Small fire elemental in a ship's hold would be disastrous. One could simply cast a fireball, lightning bolt, acid storm, etc... on an enemy ship and cause serious problems. With magic there is no need for cannons. Even a magewright with a fireball wand could completely neutralize most sailing ships. Unless of course the ship was magically treated against fire. This is a completely different debate though. When dealing with magic, cannons just simply paltry and ineffective. Imagine what would happen to an entire infantry unit wielding muskets if someone cast heat metal on them.
tuffn00gies 10-26-06, 04:18 PM	Well, there are two questions that bug me about Eberron. 1. Why does everyone say guns have no place in Eberron? The level of advancement has been commonly likened to steam punk meaning revolvers, lever action rifles, shotguns, etc. wouldn't be all that out of place. It may be commonly likened to steampunk, but not accurately. Eberron is not steampunk in any fashion. That being said, guns could easily be fit into Eberron if the group wished. They're not assumed to be there, but wouldn't be totally out of place either. 2. Why do they insist on using medieval tactics if magic is supposed to be the realms "technology"? Seriously, a phalanx vs a fireball = dead phalanx. Wouldn't modern tactics make a bit more sense? (A secondary but ultimately related question) What exactly makes you sure they use medieval warfare tactics? Seriously, I have all the Eberron books and have never seen anything discussing warfare tactics.
tuffn00gies 10-26-06, 04:19 PM	And all I've seen in the eberron books are medieval tactics, cavalry, seiges, etc... Page numbers???
Melvin the Mediocre 10-27-06, 02:49 PM	Well, there are two questions that bug me about Eberron. 1. Why does everyone say guns have no place in Eberron? The level of advancement has been commonly likened to steam punk meaning revolvers, lever action rifles, shotguns, etc. wouldn't be all that out of place. Not veryone does. It just seems that way because the ones that do tend to be quite vociferous.
Sereno 10-31-06, 08:51 AM	1. Why does everyone say guns have no place in Eberron? The level of advancement has been commonly likened to steam punk meaning revolvers, lever action rifles, shotguns, etc. wouldn't be all that out of place. To be an effective blackpowder gunner you need to actually carry the blackpowder around with you (in a powder horn or some other such carrying object). In a world where any random person you might meet could have the ability to make fire from nothing (Produce Flame, Burning Hands, Fireball, etc...) does it really make sense to carry a couple of pounds of explosives on your person? The first time a blackpowder-weapon-using soldier met up with a magewright with an Eternal Wand of Burning Hands, most people would think twice about working with this strange material. Another thing to remember ... just because there aren't many high-level wizards/sorcerers/magewrights NOW doesn't mean there weren't many during the Last War ... many of the high level characters perished in the fighting, leaving a "power-vaccuum" for the PCs to fill. If you run through the demographics generator from Keith's Dragonshard, you'll see that there actually are PLENTY of spellcasters capable of creating fire (right up to firebal) in every community.